Bad Logos Shouldn't Work, Yet They Do. The Difference Between Design and Business

Graphic designers love logos.

We obsess over them.
We celebrate them.
We tear them apart.

And nobody loves judging logos more than designers.

But here's the thing...Some of the world's most successful brands have logos designers absolutely hate.

Nike.
Google.
Mastercard.
Calendly.

And somehow, they're doing just fine.

In this episode of The Angry Designer, we unpack why some "bad" logos continue to succeed, why businesses measure logo success differently than designers do, and why the world's best designers spend far less time obsessing over execution than most creatives realize.

You'll learn:
• Why ugly logos can still be wildly effective
• How businesses actually measure branding success
• The difference between small and big designer thinking

Because maybe the question isn't "Is this a good logo?"

Maybe the better question is "Why does it work?"

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Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

A few years ago, we created a whole damn episode about how much I hated the Calendly logo. Okay. I think we said it looked like a toilet scene. It looked like uh, you know, feminine products. And I still don't really care for that logo, but it's a three billion dollar company now. What is that sexy book for you guys? I am holding a crazy sexy book. We we are not drinking today because instead of drinking, we have an incredible book that has been gifted to us by the one and only Mr. Bill Gardner. This is his new work. So if anybody knows who Bill Gardner is, or maybe they don't, but let me let me tell you, um, everybody's heard of the logo lounge books. Okay, and this has been like 15, 16 years now, right? These are the books that are basically like the real life version of of like all these these logo websites that everybody goes and collects and looks through and obsesses over. And he has, you know, literally created just just just it's just such an iconic book series. Well, now he's gone one step further and he's created the logo lounge guide to iconic branding. Okay, and I'm talking this is sexy. Like it's got the matte black cover. I love on the cover, it's actually like die-cut holes, guys. I think I wish you could see this with icons underneath, right? And the cool thing is he's got this, this, this, he's got this whole saying trend casting or logos that last, which I mean, he's really embraced this whole trend casting for logos. And um, and I mean, again, the book is just beautiful, but unlike his other books, his other books are really heavy, you know, logos, why it's and you know, it's almost like a logo dirty porn book, you know, and you're just like great logo after great logo, you know. This one goes into some real good, you know, like it's it feels like it's bigger than just a logo guy, yeah, you know, or what you know the hot logos are for the past year, right? Because we've we've known many people who've had their their logos actually make his books, which is really cool. But this one is like it asks why some brands become iconic, you know, and why some brand marks, you know, become like legendary while other ones kind of disappear, right? And again, it's got some neat things in here, like it talks about logo lifespan and then crazy logo evolution models, like just neat ideas that I was like, well, that's actually kind of a really cool way of thinking about it, right? Yeah, but the thing is, it's just like the thing I loved about this is it really kind of made me think how you know, very few marks are just born. Okay, they kind of evolved over time. It's like, you know, the most iconic logos that we know, you know, and love, right? Nike, Apple, McDonald's, right? Everybody recognized these things, but they weren't just born like this. Okay, they didn't just come out and there they were, right? Nope. They didn't make the companies iconic, okay? It's the companies that made these marks iconic, which really kind of messed with me for a little bit. Because I think we all kind of know that. Yes, but as designers, I don't know how much we believe that. Ooh. Okay, and that's the funny thing, or at least our actions aren't like because okay, if there's one thing, okay, I can say about designers, okay, is that nobody in the world loves logos more than designers. This is true.

SPEAKER_02 3:25

Yeah. Also, I'm gonna say, I I I bet I know what the flip is of this.

SPEAKER_01 3:30

And nobody in the world hates logos as much as designers. What is wrong with us? We love to love on logos. True. We even more love to hate. I know it's insane, dude. Right? Like, I mean, again, it just you get a sniff of like a new logo out on Reddit, and the whole community just goes nuts.

SPEAKER_02 3:55

Yes, and it's a pylon, too. Holy shit. Execution.

SPEAKER_01 4:00

Yeah, exactly, exactly. It's it's fucking I honestly, I I I think it's great because I think every designer genuinely believes that they're the one, they're the designer who had the solution to fix that gap logo. Oh, you know, absolutely that gap fiasco. Just give it to me, I'd do 10 times better than that. I could have done a logo ten times better than that. I still think it's a Pierre Stone, but regardless, right? It's like, you know, when there's an opportunity, designers become experts on, you know, judging logos and they will just chime in about everything. And I don't know how often it's warranted, right? Because again, it just it ever everybody knows how they would have done it better. Yes. Okay, but very few people actually dig into you know, even anything behind that. It's always very thin and superficial. Right.

SPEAKER_02 4:44

And I'm guilty of it. I I'll I'll see a logo and look, it'll look if it looks shitty. I'm you know, I'm I'm gonna say and I'm gonna point out what the the parts I don't like. Right? But I don't know what what happened in behind the scenes.

SPEAKER_01 4:56

And and why, right? But again, you know, as a designer, we we own the opinion. We reserve the right to comment on this shit, right? Yes, because we all know how we could have done it better, right? But the thing is, you know, and this so with that being said, okay, and okay, this is something, you know, this isn't a no guff, this is a no guff type situation. No guff. But where I'm going with this is we hate on these logos all the time, and we we're we're so quick to say how how how how bad they are. Yet these companies who make these changes to the logos are still wildly successful years later. Yes. Okay, like let's face it, okay. A few years ago, we went, we created a whole damn episode, okay, about how much I hated the Calendly logo. Okay. I think we said it looked like a toilet seat. Yes. It looked like uh, you know, feminine products, right? Like there was a lot of weird shit about, and I still don't really care for that logo. No. Okay. I think it I think it it did a horrible job to the to the product itself, but it's a fucking three billion dollar company now. This is true. Boy, I got that. But I mean, ultimately, my opinion didn't matter, right? Right? It really didn't. And you know, this logo, in my opinion, is a very ugly logo, but it's still wildly successful for the company. Yeah. Okay. So, you know, it's crazy to think that like ugly logos actually succeed.

SPEAKER_02 6:18

Yeah, this is that's the thing. And and Pfizer, I'm thinking of too, right? That they did all right. They're still doing all right, right. Their rebrand. I don't really care for that logo very much. But Google, Google done.

SPEAKER_01 6:29

Right, it's just letters, a bad word mark. Yeah. Okay. And everybody seems everything from the kerning to the colors to this to that. Yeah. I don't think Google cares. And I don't think it's affecting anything on there. Remember that that was it, the MasterCard logo? I actually didn't mind that. You know, the two colors. Remember they they simplified it, they dropped the word MasterCard, and then they made the the two circles kind of merge. And I kind of thought that was kind of cool. That's interesting. But man, the whole world hated on them. Man, they're consistently, you know, killing problem quarter after quarter. They're just winning, right?

SPEAKER_02 7:01

Exactly. Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 7:02

So again, it's like, you know, it makes you wonder, you know, how valid whatever it is, you know, our opinions are when it comes to this, especially if we are supposed to be experts in our field. Interesting. And that's the scary thing to think about. It really is. Yikes. Right? Yeah, then it makes me, you know, question like, you know, how do you actually define if a logo is actually successful? Right? Like if if if we create a logo that designers love, okay, but I mean it's forgettable for the company, okay, and the company actually sucks, is the logo successful? Although, and I think that's that's the the the the conundrum here. Okay, because I think what's happening is what how designers qualify if a logo is successful is very different than how businesses define how a logo is successful. And I think, you know, after going through this, this is I think this is the huge you know headbutting that we're constantly getting. Because I think this this can clarify a lot of shit for us, right? Because again, it would definitely explain why a lot of really ugly logos still belong to successful companies, right? Because I do think that, you know, the metrics are completely different than what they're looking at. Okay. And the definitions of success for the you know, designers versus companies, you know, are are clear as day. I went through some of these, right? So again, you know, designers and businesses, they measure they do measure success differently, right? Because designers measure success a logo success as, you know, if it's original, if it's creative, right, if it's clever, you know, some might, you know, say, well, if it's trending or if it's, you know, um, you know, gone or or passe, right? You know, this is how some designers are measuring success, where companies really don't give a shit about a lot of those things, right? Because a company's looking at the completely different, they're measuring success. You know, is it you know recognizable? Will customers remember it? Okay. Does it, you know, will it adopt, you know, our our whole brand ethos? Okay. So I mean, again, you know, will it grow with a company, right? Like companies measure logos in a completely different way than we would. Yes. Okay. So that's one thing, right? Um familiarity. You know, that beats cleverness. Yes, yes, okay. So again, designers will look at a new logo mark, right? And if it's clever, if if it has hidden meaning, if it if it uses negative space, you know, in a clever way, like the FedEx, right? Well, we applaud it. Yeah. Okay, we're thinking great, right? All over that. But, you know, and again, the thing is, customers, on the other hand, they would rather they prefer recognition, okay, versus cleverness. Okay. They're not analyzing the shit out of these marks like we are. Right. Customers will look at a mark and they'll be like, yeah, I get it. I like it. Or, huh? Okay, and they move on. That's it. They won't give it more than three, four seconds, and that's it. But they're looking for this consistent recognition over and over. And again, so that's a completely different way to measure those two, right? So this whole familiarity versus cleverness, right? Um, another time is obviously, you know, I've got here businesses create the meaning of a logo. Okay. So logos, you know, they're never born. Right. Okay. They're not born in a company, right? But over time, companies like Nike and Apple, right, they develop with the meaning behind that logo, right? And that is completely different. So, you know, the symbol might actually come first at the beginning, okay? But the meaning of that symbol comes over time, which is why a lot of times companies will have a really ugly logo and you'll hate it. But a few years later, when the company does great work and maybe the product's good, eh, it might not bother you as much. Well, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 10:48

And in fact, I think it would improve it. Like Nike is a great example. Exactly. Because you put it on a shoe, you get that familiar familiarity already you talk about. Yeah, yeah. And that, you know, that creates that, that makes that logo put puts it into legendary territory, right? Yeah. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 11:05

And then the the athletes behind it, all the billions of dollars of brand dollars. Because if you look at it, it's a it's a kind of a weird, like, what does it it is just a little, it's a sweet. It's just a sweet, right? And I mean, now you can look into it and be like, oh, it's athleticism, the arches of motion and everything.

SPEAKER_02 11:24

It's got everything.

SPEAKER_01 11:28

And really, it was just like, oh it was actually originally designed to be upside down, but by accident, when I just hashed it across the desk.

SPEAKER_02 11:42

Right?

SPEAKER_01 11:42

I know, I know. It's funny. It's over time. Yes, you know, that ugly logo can develop that that familiarity, that that love, that passion behind it, right? Right, right. So again, you know, so the business can create the meaning. Yes. And that's how an ugly logo can survive. Um, you know, uh, a big one, hey, guess what? Designers might not actually be the freaking audience for that logo. What? What? So again, let's face it, you know, the the the the bass logo that you see on the hats everywhere right there is not exactly the coolest logo. No, but the enthusiast market, they love that freaking it is iconic. It speaks to them, okay? It is to the point where it's trendy and rappers wear that dip. Okay. So again, it's like the logos out there that we might not think are very cool aren't really there to impress designers. Right. They're there to impress the customers, to reach out to the customers. So we're not the freaking market. Right. Okay, so that's why, in our opinion, even though it's luggage ugly, it wasn't designed for me in the first place. So it doesn't mean it's not successful. Yeah, it just means it wasn't for me. Right. Okay. And ultimately, great businesses can carry a mediocre logo. There we go. Okay, and this one's this one's it's it's horrible, right? But again, you know, if a company has a great logo, but it's got shitty service, it's got shitty products, right? Well, that logo's not gonna save that in any way, shape, or form, right? But you know, if a company has a really shitty logo, but your first experience with that company is awesome, you give it five stars, they follow up, the product is good. Man, you're not gonna give a shit. That company will survive. We've had so many customers with shit, crap, we still have some successful customers with horrendous logos. Yes. And you know, it's like, we dare not try to fix this because obviously they know something that we don't, and they're wildly successful with a horrible logo. And I don't know if it's because it resonates or if it's just voodoo magic, whatever it is, we dare not touch it because it's working for them, right? So again, there's so many factors to consider, you know, when you know why a logo is successful for a company. And in that case, you know, it's probably all those touch points that a company has with that end user. Yeah, I think designers forget that logos are part of the system, right? But they're not the whole system, the whole thing. It's not be all and end all. Yes, exactly. Right? It's not, and that's and that's a scary thing. That's something that that kind of shakes us, right? It hurts us. It does us. Exactly. Well, because again, this, I mean, again, because for us, logos are like they're just fun to watch. There are comic books, they're Saturday morning cartoons, right? They're fun to flip through, and you know, on so many levels, you know, we love this stuff. They're the probably arguably two the most fun to work on. Oh right?

SPEAKER_02 14:46

That end solution part is yes, yes, that's yeah, that's the thing. But I mean, there's more meat in the in the rest of it, in what's behind the logo.

SPEAKER_01 14:54

Well, and that's and that's the thing, right? Um, you know, so designers, and this is the part that I don't think anybody wants to admit. I think we all know it, but nobody wants to admit to this, okay? We cry that, you know, we want to be respected, we want to be viewed as experts, we want to be brought to the table sooner and included in strategy meetings. Yes. But, okay, very few designers will take accountability for any sort of business advice, success. We don't want any responsibility for, you know, anything that goes wrong. No, no, no. We're like a freaking teenager, okay? We we want all the credit, but we don't want to have to do any of the work to get to that credit. So it's the same thing, right? Like, I mean, you can't sit there and say that you want to be treated like an expert and charge more and and get bigger projects, but yet, you know, be like, well, the res the results aren't my responsibility. You know, you know your client, you know your target market. Yeah. Like as though you're you're just brought in as a prima donna to just put the icing on top of that. You know, we obsess over that 5% execution model. But the thing is, nobody wants to understand or or or or step up and work on the 95% that nobody ever sees. Exactly. Right? And I think that's that's the opportunity that most designers are missing right now, okay? Which is why I think the field in the future is gonna start getting thinner and thinner and people are gonna die off, right? Because again, you know, the the designers who are making the biggest impact in the world, working with the biggest companies, the gang over at freaking pentagram, right? They're not talking about fonts and colors and weights and current and shit like that. They're they're they're digging, you know, the business behind it, they're looking at the positioning, the products. You know, where do you want to take this? What does your future look like? Yeah, you know, we see the the the Paula Shore example. Oh, she got a million dollars for the city bank local. There was a lot more to that than just her little scribble. Exactly. Um Michael Beirut, I wrote this down. Okay, he said identity design is about solving the communication problems, not making pretty symbols. Ah, Michael Beirut. There we go. I mean, that's he's the expert, right? He's the king. Yes. Okay, and the shit that he does, uh the reason why I love watching a lot of his videos is because he doesn't just show his icon, he shows how he got to that mark. He talks about the company behind it, their attempts, their successes, their failures. And I mean, again, he's right here talking about exactly that about what we're supposed to be doing, isn't just that last five percent. Yeah, yeah. Okay, so but again, nobody thinks about that. It's true. He's thinking bigger. Yeah. The way I'm thinking about this is there's small designer thinking, and then there's big designer thinking. Okay. And and in all in all fairness, I think small designer thinking, okay, is being the you know, judging just based on colors, the looks, the font that they use, the the you know, the the kerning and all the stuff that is very aesthetic, right? But it's also very thin, okay? Oh, how would I have done that? I would have done it different by doing this. What would I have changed? You know, like is it unique? Is it clever? Oh, could could they have found negative space opportunities? This is, you know, small designer thinking. Right, right. Okay. Big designer thinking, on the other hand, right? They first and foremost obsess over the bigger brand messaging. They're digging in, they're looking into the differentiators between, you know, this company versus your competition, right? What are the outliers? What are your strengths? What are the problems that we're trying to solve, right? And then they're wondering, you know, not, oh, I would change the logos or or I would change that. It's why did they change the logo? Okay. Did did their market change? Did their business change? Okay. They're trying to understand the why before understanding what the execution was, right?

SPEAKER_03 18:45

Right.

SPEAKER_01 18:45

It's like with that whole Uncle Cracker thing that we saw, right? Again, a lot of people hated on it right away. Right. Just because all they saw was was just the um the mark. They got rid of Uncle Herschel, right? Right. And again, we saw that, we discussed it, right? Yeah. I didn't care about the execution. And I wasn't upset about the execution. I think the whole time, we we had a full episode on our opinion on this. I think the whole time about that episode, we didn't bitch about, you know, oh, it's so simple, it's blended, and this that we bitched because they lost the brand, Mark. They lost, they weren't thinking about their end user. Okay. They simplified it to the point. Right. I didn't care about the design. I didn't care if they put it in uh something that looked like a barrel. They got rid of the soul, the brand, the positioning behind the logo. Right, right. That was the upsetting part. And that was the part that we were trying to understand. Yes. And I think that's why so many people got upset. Yeah. Not because they just removed a character and made the logo modern, but because what they were trying to do is they they basically pissed all over what they what they were, yes. What they were and trying to attract somebody new while neglecting who they currently had.

SPEAKER_02 19:54

But I understand the reasoning behind that because somebody somewhere is like, we need variations, like the Disney logo, right? Yep. We need we need to make this small. And and you're not going to make Uncle Cracker or whatever his name is smaller or Uncle Herschel, yeah. Do you know what I mean? So I I I understand the company perspective of why you would want to change something like this. Because the times are different than what, you know, going into a newspaper ad.

SPEAKER_01 20:20

Well, I mean again, but then thinking in in that way, you know, like the Disney logo, right? What's more iconic, the D. Right. Or is it the castle? Okay. If they wanted to bring down the cracker barrel logo so it fits on a digital purpose, that's fine. Yeah. But on a whole, you don't have to get rid of Uncle Herschel on the side of the building where the sign is. Exactly. And again, that's the whole point of you know, the importance of a responsive logo. Right. But you can't, you know, d cut out what what your core market identified with and who and had the most, the biggest, you know, brand market, the the biggest brand representation of your whole company. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's the difference. Um because a lot of people just went in and said, oh, uh, the old one was old, outdated, it was time for a refresh. But the ones who actually really dug deep, they didn't care about the refresh. They they were more worried about the reasoning behind the refresh. Right. And that's where the flaws were. Right. Right. So again, I think the real shift here, okay, that that I think what we're talking about is we're not saying that um, you know, to stop caring about logos. No, no, no. Because that's not what this is in, right? This this absolutely isn't, you know, it's it's it's just I think the idea here is to try to stop treating the logo like it's, you know, the end all. Yes. Like it's the only part, okay. Where in fact it's just the end of the story. Right. Okay. It is like that exact. It's not the entire story. No. It's just the end. It's that like we said, it's that last five percent. They don't exist in isolation. Okay. Logos, they're part of a bigger system. Yes. Okay, so it's funny when we do go in and critique, which we do, right? We're only critiquing on the one little point. One thing, exactly. Where, you know, I think the opportunity for Designers, okay, is to take a step back and take a look at the bigger picture when doing this greetings. We absolutely have the right as designers to have a personal preference to the style that they use, the colors they chose. Yeah. But it's to our benefit, to our advantage, to actually try to understand the reasoning why they got there. That's the key.

SPEAKER_02 22:22

That you know, that's the thing, is what we're looking at is is tiny little thing. There's a million little things. Tiny little thing that may there might be some flaws in it. You could you could pick apart or whatever. But there might be a million things behind the scenes that went right at the time. That went right. That will elevate this to the next level. And that's why these companies need to grow.

SPEAKER_01 22:40

Yes. Right? So and again, people need to so instead of saying, you know, is a logo good or whatever, you know, or or is that the right font I would have used, or giving it a mark, or whatever like that. Think about it, like, you know, you you want to think about the bigger meaning. What problem was it trying to solve? You know, what has their pro has their audience changed at all, right? Who is this being designed for, right? Like there's a lot more to it than just the aesthetic side. And this is where we need to shift our thinking to, okay? Because the the moment that you start uh asking those kinds of questions, okay, is basically the moment when you start shifting to being a more strategic uh designer. There we go. And that's what I think that the future requires, okay. I think that's what's gonna survive in the future, okay? Because when all said and done, you know, when when when design becomes easier because of the tools that are out there and because of the services that are available, what's gonna keep us ahead of everybody else is our thinking, okay, and our getting there process. And that is still a designer trait. It's just so few designers embrace that right. And that's key, that's critical. Yeah, so again, you know, start evaluating these decisions more like a design strategist, not like a designer or a design decorator, okay? Because again, the solution isn't necessarily caring less about logos, okay? It's about caring more about what surrounds the logos. There we go. And I think that's how designers need to start changing their own.

SPEAKER_02 24:12

And and wouldn't anybody want a Nike logo in their in their portfolio? You know what I mean? Like something like that that has grown with a brand. Exactly. And is something that's ubiquitous, it's all over the place, right?

SPEAKER_01 24:26

Right. That would be awesome. Again, to bring it all back, you know, this book, it really kind of did spark this whole conversation. And again, it's more than just, you know, a source. This book is more than than just an inspirational book. Oh, yeah. And I think that's that's why I I recommend this one. I recommend all the logo lounge books for, you know, for inspiration and for cool. But this is a good step to learn how to become a lot more strategic. And this book is like key. And it needs to be key if somebody wants to start being, you know, thinking like a embrace a big designer thinking, as opposed to just like a doer, decorator, and everything else. Right, right. Cool.

SPEAKER_02 25:01

It's a beautiful book. It's a great book.

SPEAKER_01 25:03

Yes. Oh, and Bill's such a great guy. And he's like, We're gonna have an episode with that guy coming up soon, so hang tight. Oh, nice. Guys, I hope you got a lot out of this one, and I'm sorry if it felt a little scrambled today, but we're struggling. We're struggling with other external reasons.

SPEAKER_02 25:18

All right, everybody. My name's Mossima. My name is Sean. Stay creative and stay angry.