[00:00:00] Erika: I am Erika Van Noort and you're listening to the Catalyst, the podcast dedicated to exploring the intersection of people and technology.

[00:00:12] Erika: We're only a couple of months into 2023, and organizations are facing unprecedented challenges. Employee burnout is at an all-time high, exasperated by a growing supply chain problem, rising inflation and pressure to control costs. These challenges have created a hyper-competitive talent landscape where top talent is in high demand and difficult to retain.

[00:00:41] Erika: In this era of quiet, quitting, and rage applying, we have to wonder where is the talent going? And more crucially, how do we make strategic plans to keep the people we love to work with, happy and fulfilled right where they are? 

Hi, and welcome back to a special bonus episode of The Catalyst. I'm your host, Erika Van Noort.

[00:01:07] Erika: But before we continue with today's awesome guest, I wanted to share some news with our listeners. After 10 wonderful years at Softchoice in roles like professional services consulting, working with large deals and employee experience, it's time for me to take on some new challenges. This means that this will be my last episode on the show.

[00:01:30] Erika: I'll have more to say about that at the end of our interview today, so stay tuned. For now, let's get back to why we're here exploring the intersection of technology and people. Today I am speaking with Michelle Slater, the Director of Marketing at Indeed Canada. Together we'll explore the question of talent, one of my favourite topics, and discuss how transformational businesses should approach a changed workforce in order to attract talent to new world ways of working.

[00:02:04] Erika: So, Michelle, I am so excited to have you here today. Welcome to the podcast.

[00:02:08] Michelle: Thank you so much, Erika. It's great to be here. 

[00:02:12] Erika: So given everything that's going on in the world right now from a global recession to the biggest labour shortage in over 50 years, it's not surprising that retaining talent in precarious times has become a major challenge.

[00:02:27] Erika: There is also the question one that a friend and I have noodled in the past months, and that is where have all the people gone? We see organizations everywhere struggling to find talent. So Michelle, I'm curious. What trends have you been seeing that are contributing to this era of quiet quitting. 

[00:02:46] Michelle: There's a lot of things happening that you just mentioned, not only in Canada, but also in the United States and around the world.

[00:02:53] Michelle: Quiet quitting is an interesting phenomenon that we've been hearing a lot about in the media, and it's actually an interesting movement. It goes against hustle culture, which I think dominated a lot of conversations in the early 2000s. Basically, what quiet quitting is, is it doesn't mean that people are actually quitting.

[00:03:10] Michelle: What it means is that instead of going above and beyond, taking on new things, maybe doing extra that they're not being paid for, employees are putting up more boundaries, and a lot of that is simply to avoid burnout and it's, I think for a lot of us, I know me included, I spent a lot of time thinking during the pandemic, had a lot of extra time on my hands, and many people had the same, same kind of feeling that they had a chance to re-evaluate what was truly important to them.

[00:03:38] Michelle: And looked at their work in a very critical way. So whether that was the great resignation that we saw happening right on the tail end of the pandemic, or people quietly quitting their jobs, more and more workers are really putting up boundaries and saying work is a huge part of their lives, but they want to make sure that their overall life is a lot happier and a lot more connected to what they care about.

[00:04:03] Erika: I love that I've done that myself. I mean, many of us have had those moments to reflect. We had a lot of hours during the pandemic and during shutdown to have some of those, those thoughts. So let's talk about the good job. So what really defines a good job for a potential employee? What are they looking for?

[00:04:20] Michelle: For each of us, those definitions of what's a great job really differ. Personally, I think I've got one of the best jobs out there, but we did a survey actually indeed, that dug into what are the best jobs and it, we looked at three criteria. The first criteria, making sure that there's actually opportunities.

[00:04:38] Michelle: So what's been the growth in that particular job category since, uh, 2019? Making sure that there's actually jobs out there you can apply for in that category. The second, which should be no surprise to any listeners, is around compensation. We wanted to make sure that the jobs were of relatively high pay.

[00:04:56] Michelle: And in Canada what that looked at, uh, was $65,000 or more per year, which is the median salary for Canadians. And then the third is around flexibility. And flexibility is the opportunity. Where you are happiest, whether that's at home in a, uh, a work from home environment or a hybrid, which is partly in an office or in a company setting and partly, uh, from home.

[00:05:22] Michelle: And we wanted to make sure that that flexibility was accounted for in about 10 per cent of the roles.

[00:05:26] Erika: Okay. There's been a few new terms that I've also heard, and you and I have spoken about these as well, and there's a term called rage applying. Can you maybe tell us a little bit more about that? Because it sort of sounds worse than I think it is, so maybe help us understand rage applying.

[00:05:43] Michelle: Well, when you think about what's important in your life, work is up there, but so is family health and your overall relationships that you have. And as the calendar turned over to January, many of us took that time to say what's important to me, maybe set some New Year's resolutions. And for many people that meant re-evaluating their job and thinking about what is their opportunity at, during their career or their current company, offer them, whether it's around health and wellness, their salary, but truly like, are you happy at work? And so rage applying, although sounds very aggressive and it's not necessarily an entirely new trend.

[00:06:22] Michelle: It's basically a new term for a trend we've been seeing for quite a while. Basically what it means is people saying, hey, I've had. I want to actually look for something new. Hopefully they go to Indeed to do it. They open up and see what are the opportunities out there for them based on their current skillset, based on their location, and, and of course based on what they're looking for.

[00:06:43] Michelle: So rage applying basically means people are saying, I've had it, I want to look for something else and applying for a whole bunch of jobs all at the same time. 

[00:06:52] Erika: Okay. Thank you for, for walking us through that.

[00:06:58] Erika: So another is that we talk about like the workforce has just changed so dramatically with the wake of the pandemic and part of that change ties into a trend. And you mentioned at the beginning, quiet quitting. And it's interesting because I was at a conference last June that you were actually hosting in Vancouver and I know you talked about the quiet quitting then.

[00:07:17] Erika: So what do you think gave rise to that trend and go a little bit deeper and is it still going on? Are people still actually doing this? Because I hear of all other catchphrases and I just wonder is it still as relevant and, and give us a little bit more there.

[00:07:33] Michelle: For individuals who. Thinking about what does the year ahead look like for them at work? There's, I think a couple of phenomenon happening all at the same time. So quiet quitting is still definitely something that we're seeing happening across all companies, and that's where people are looking at what is my job offer and then where is this going to take me? And quite honestly, I think the challenge we've seen.

[00:08:01] Michelle: People are reassessing what's truly important to them. And when you consider the 24 hours that we each have in our day, eight hours spent at work needs to be a meaningful eight hours and quiet quitting is basically, I'm going to only work eight hours. I'm not going to do extra. I'm not going to put in an all-nighter or even an extra two to three hours a day, which many, many of us have done over our careers.

[00:08:27] Erika: So one of the other things I know you're a big advocate for and comes through your work is talking about the whole culture of wellbeing and the role it plays with folks. And I know that even last week you had a holiday that's not common for many organizations, and I remember you sharing that with us and it was the, uh, Holocaust survivors’ day and recognizing that.

[00:08:49] Erika: So when you think of well-being, maybe share a little bit about how that plays into this era of what it's like to be you know, a full employee in bringing your whole self. 

[00:09:01] Michelle: When you think about workplace expectations that employees have, workplace wellbeing is right up at the top of the list. We again, did a survey at Indeed, when we think about why people are looking for a new job? Compensation benefits and financial success tops the list.

[00:09:18] Michelle: Flexibility is in second place, but culture and belonging is at 35 per cent of the reasons why people are looking for a new job. And when you think about workplace well-being, it encompasses many elements for, for people who are, uh, at work. And that can be things like having a sense of belonging, feeling included, feeling that they can be their true self and bring their whole self to work.

[00:09:44] Michelle: And for all of us, this understanding of, hey, I can actually be my quirky, interesting, creative self, and I can be respected for that. It means that you feel a sense of belonging at a company, and it fosters an environment where people can truly thrive. In my opinion, workplace well-being is an actual must.

[00:10:06] Michelle: It's not a perk at a company. Uh, and so for employers who are listening, you're thinking, well, what does this mean for me? You can simply ask your employees and say, what is important? You can do surveys and engage your team to say, I want to have a feeling where we can celebrate cultural events. I want to have opportunities where I can share what's going on in my life.

[00:10:30] Michelle: And to think about truly who you are as an individual and be respected for that in your organization. When we think about workplace well-being, I think a lot of employers maybe think, oh, it's just about the benefits we offer. But it's also about managing stress too. So with people who are reporting, having a lower level of well-being at work, um, and saying, I'm kind of unhappy.

[00:10:57] Michelle: Of course it makes sense that only 24 per cent are likely to stay with their current employer for the next 12 months. So given the fact that it's tough to find talent out there, we know that there's a shortage of great talent in Canada and United States. If you can ensure that your team stays happy, that they are engaged and there's a sense of wellbeing than it is also an opportunity to prevent turnover in your organization.

[00:11:22] Erika: Where do you think all these people went, Michelle? 

[00:11:25] Michelle: Yeah, we've, it's been interesting to see where we're at with employment rates and in both Canada and the United States. We're actually at all-time lows in terms of, um, unemployment, actually in Canada, since this was tracked by the government in the 1970s, it's the lowest it's ever been.

[00:11:43] Michelle: I think there's a, a couple of interesting demographic trends we're seeing is that our population is aging and so people have taken an opportunity to retire and leave the workforce. And then we also know, particularly in Canada, that a lot of the labour force is actually growing because of immigration.

[00:12:04] Michelle: And with the last couple of years it's been, you know, difficult to travel because of lockdowns and because of government restrictions. This has also had an impact on the labour force. And then thirdly, I think people are thinking about work very differently. So as I mentioned about quiet, quitting, not embracing the hustle culture, people reflecting on what's truly important in their whole life and not just their life at work. People are making different decisions in terms of work. That doesn't mean there's not a lot of great talent out there, and that's one of the things that I know we'll talk about a bit later, but keeping an open mind of where can you actually get great talent?

[00:12:45] Michelle: We've seen a lot more employers who are hiring people who've got the right values, who can fit in with the organization, contribute to the culture, and then actually be trained on the job. So instead of looking for that perfect worker with all the right skills on their resume, they're looking for the values that that employee can bring and then train them actually on the role.

[00:13:14] Erika: So in your view, what is talent? So the talent that's out there, or the talent that's likely employed and might be thinking about the quiet quitting, or might be thinking about the quiet firing element. Like what is, what are these people looking for now as they think about their own jobs and their own long-term careers?

[00:13:33] Erika:What are some of those elements that. I know there's a lot of people listening to our podcasts that are in the same place and thinking, wow, what do I need to do in order to appeal to these folks? 

[00:13:45] Michelle: There's a couple of things that people are looking for when they're looking for a new job and they're assessing a company and looking to join that organization.

[00:13:53] Michelle: The first one is to make sure that you've got very solid compensation, strong benefits, and that you can offer your new employees some very solid financial success with the cost of living going up and inflation being quite high. Compensation is still top of the list as to what people are looking for in a new job.

[00:14:13] Michelle: But they're also looking for flexibility. And so flexibility can mean the opportunity to have slightly different work hours, whether that's coming in a little bit later because they've got to drop the kids off to go to school in the morning, or it's an opportunity to have a couple of days working from home, a couple of days working in an office.

[00:14:31] Michelle: We've also seen the phenomenon out of a four-day work week. And again, some companies are embracing that and people are really looking for added flexibility that's right for them. And believe me, it's not a one size fits all because for each individual, they may want different things. The next area is around growth.

[00:14:50] Michelle: And so does this job, or does the company offer an opportunity for both personal growth in terms of new learning that they can get on the job, potentially courses, education that they can take, but also corporate growth. And so what are the opportunities to climb the ladder within the organization. And I say climb the ladder, but it also can be lateral moves that can give you additional growth opportunities.

[00:15:15] Michelle; And then the last is around the culture of the organization. So most people want to fit in and feel like they're part of a team. They want to have a sense of belonging, that they're included in conversations, that they don't feel that because of their personal beliefs, their background whether it's their sexual orientation or any of the elements that provide an inclusive and diverse workforce, they want to make sure that they can feel respected and that they're valued members of that organization.

[00:15:47] Michelle: Culture and belonging is becoming increasingly important for workers in North America, and it's an area that organizations really do need to embrace, and that comes to life in many, many, many ways. That can be celebration of cultural holidays, having days off to recognize things that are happening, whether you know, today being the first day of Black History Month, what is the company doing to actually recognize that period March, being around a women's history month.

[00:16:18] Michelle: How are you thinking about how women's voices are being heard in the organization? So the culture and belonging is becoming increasingly important for why Canadians and Americans are looking for a new job and considering what company they'd like to work for. 

[00:16:33] Erika: That's great. You talk about the diversity piece and you talk about, you know, gender differences.

[00:16:38] Erika: Are you seeing anything as we look at the workforce today, are men and women or however you identify are, are you seeing like significant differences in what they're looking for? Or at the end of the day, is everyone really looking at that culture and belong?

[00:16:55] Michelle: There is one unfortunate stat that we're still seeing is that there is pay gaps between what men and what women are being paid.

[00:17:04] Michelle: And you know, I had hoped that when I started first working 20 years ago, that at this point in time it would be a hundred per cent equal between men and women. But unfortunately, we're still seeing a pay gap of about I think it's 13 cents on the dollar for in North America, which basically means that for women, they're only being paid 87 cents to every dollar that a man is earning.

[00:17:28] Michelle:  And so as companies are, are looking at how they're paying their employees strongly recommend that they do an assessment and ensure that there is equality between the two genders. And again, I'm, I'm saying two genders, but I do mean that how people identify between, uh, male and female and that they do have more equality in terms of what they're, they're paying their employees.

[00:17:53] Michelle: So that's one, one big area that we're still, unfortunately seeing. 

[00:17:57] Erika: Yeah. Yeah. I think it's just, it's, we just want everybody to be paid equally for equal work. Right? That's what we're looking for. And that's really the, the ultimate goal here. And you're right, it's, it's sad to think that we've been in the workforce for many years and we still haven't seen that.

[00:18:14] Erika: It's narrowed for sure, but we still haven't seen it get to where we want it to be.

[00:18:21] Erika: So another topic, and that is there's also been in the news recently, um, mass layoffs, very public layoffs happening in the tech industry specifically. Um, Microsoft announced earlier in January that it would be laying off 10,000 employees, and before that 18,000 folks, North American with Amazon. I actually think that went a little more global, and these numbers include highly skilled knowledge workers.

[00:18:45] Erika: So do you think the tech bubble is bursting or is this perhaps a deeper lesson to be learned about overall hiring and perhaps just managing in larger organizations? 

[00:18:58] Michelle: When you pause and you think about what's happening in the tech industry, we've all read the same headlines that there's been massive layoffs and hiring freezes in other tech companies.

[00:19:08] Michelle: But that doesn't mean that individuals who have tech skills or people who are actually studying at college or university to have a tech career, it doesn't mean that there's not a lot of awesome jobs out there for them. In fact, if you pause and reflect and you think about all the different industries, whether it's a resource industry, forestry, or even a big retail organization, financial services, healthcare services, every single industry needs tech workers.

[00:19:39] Michelle: And so you could almost say that every single company is kind of a tech company now. Uh, in fact we've seen here at Indeed that the number of tech roles is still really high. And we did a recent study in terms of the best jobs and we're seeing that six out of the top 10 best jobs are actually tech roles.

[00:19:59] Michelle: And so whether you are one of those people who's looking for new work because you've unfortunately been part of a layoff, or you're about to graduate with tech skills, or you're thinking of going back and refreshing your skillset, there are still many new opportunities out there. It may just be a slowdown in the tech industry for this period of time, but not for tech skills in other industries.

[00:20:28] Erika: It's great. I have a friend of mine whose son is graduating in the computer science space, specialty in artificial intelligence and quant, and I think he had three or four job offers that were presented to him. So I think your relevancy around skills and knowing that, you know, if six out of 10 roles are in the tech space, it's really understanding not just where the tech space is now, but where is the tech space going for what skills and, and how to, you know, be more aligned with what the desired skills are that are required in these organizations. 

[00:21:02] Michelle: It's interesting. I studied business when I went to university so many years ago, and when I think about what I studied and where I ended up in my career, the last two jobs I've had, those organizations didn't exist.

[00:21:15] Michelle: I didn't even know that that was an opportunity. So if was somebody who is thinking, gosh, I don't know what's going to happen next. I do strongly recommend that you continue to stay abreast of some of the changes that are happening within the tech sector. And if you're thinking of going back to school, it doesn't hurt to refresh your skills.

[00:21:34] Michelle: Uh, and yes, it can be challenging to know what's next, but I always say if you sort of have a project on the side of your desk, which keeps you excited, or if you're curious, learning is something that will continue throughout your entire career. It's not just something that you do in, in your early twenties uh, and then kind of say, okay, I did that. I've got my degree now. What's next? uh, there's so many more opportunities that you don't even think you and I could imagine are going to be out there in the next 10 to 15 years. 

[00:22:05] Erika: So a couple of other things and that is we've talked about different areas that organizations should be focusing on, and you talked about well-being, you talked about you know, things like four day work week and flexible policies.

[00:22:18] Erika: Are organizations in your mind, and some of the research that you've seen, are they truly moving to some of these more flexible work arrangements or is it more just talk? Or does it only really work in some industry sector? 

[00:22:31] Michelle: I think that employers are being a lot more flexible than they may have wanted to be.

[00:22:37] Michelle: Um, simply one of the outcomes of the pandemic, if you roll back the calendars to March, 2020, most individuals in a corporate setting were all of a sudden sent home. And then you hoped that VPN and you hoped that your home internet was strong enough to be able to handle all the many virtual calls that we had and many, many, many conference calls.

[00:22:58] Michelle: Now that works for a lot of organizations, but it definitely doesn't work for frontline workers. It doesn't work for individuals in a retail, uh, function, quick service restaurant, anything within the travel industry. So I'm saying this with generality of yes, employers who could do this, definitely embraced it.

[00:23:19] Michelle: And employers who couldn't also then looked at what can we do in terms of the hours of work to make it easier for employees that actually need to be physically at work. So the feeling with workers is that I want flexibility and we are also seeing that on job postings that have hybrid or remote, they're getting a lot more searches and a lot more applications.

[00:23:43] Michelle: So people are asking for it. We're seeing the demand out there, and employers are reacting in ways that will make sense for their business. So it doesn't work in all cases simply because of the nature of the work. But when it does, more and more employers are embracing that flexibility and reco gnizing that the days that people do spend together in an office setting or in a company setting should be used specifically for team meetings, for opportunities, for closer connection, for brainstorming.  

[00:24:12] Michelle: Some of the things that are harder to do over a Zoom call or a virtual conference call. And then when people are, have the ability to work remotely, that's a great opportunity to do more heads down thinking, uh, a space to do. more strategic work where you want to have fewer, uh, interruptions and you need to have more focused time.

[00:24:34] Michelle: And so as we progress and we kind of come out of the, the weird couple of years that we've had, I think you'll see more and more changes in how the workplace functions. You may even see some change in terms of what corporate real estate looks like and how offices are configured. And then as individuals are working from home, the days that they schedule for work from home may be more focused on strategic work focused work where you can do your own quiet thinking in an environment that is easier for you. And I say home, but for some people, home is not the quiet environment. They're looking of. It may be a shared space, it could be a coffee shop, it could be another location. So I use, home i\as not the office, but a secondary, uh, spot for work.

 [00:25:23] Erika: Thanks for clarifying that because there, there were a lot of people that even struggled with home during the pandemic because home was small or to your point, a very shared space. And we also had people assuming many roles, one being teaching, and I think there's a lot of parents that have a whole new respect for the teaching industry after the pandemic as well, uh, when they were home-schooling.

[00:25:42] Erika: But one of the things. Um, that we talk about at Softchoice is that place has to have purpose and if you want people to come together, there needs to be a purpose, um, for bringing folks together. And people need to feel that there's a sense of purpose. Because if you're just going to come in to a space and do the exact same thing you were doing in your remote space, whether it be going from teams call to teams call to teams call, you sort of feel like, okay, that's, that's a little different.

[00:26:07] Erika: I need to sort of find out what's that balance. And as you say at the beginning, it’s so much of this ties back to wellbeing and that's mental wellbeing, particularly because we've seen a lot of that being discussed throughout the entire pandemic. 

[00:26:19] Michelle: I know for me, I live about an hour and a half, one way commuting into the office, and so I make those decisions of when I go in very strategically.

[00:26:28] Michelle: I need it to be valuable for me because losing three hours of my day in a commute is pretty tough, and it makes for a really long day. So when I go into the office, it's with purpose and it's with an intention, and I've got a plan. It's not just to be on another Zoom call, which I could easily take from home.

 [00:26:48] Erika: That's a great point. And uh, people's commutes have absolutely factored and as we know, many people have actually moved out of some of the city centres in order to afford, um, a greater life quality. And, uh, it's just, I'm sure there's going to be many, many studies written about the last few years that future generations will read about forever.

[00:27:09] Erika: So Michelle, this is a podcast that explores the overall intersection of transformational businesses and everyday people. And I'm wondering about the role technology plays itself in both talent acquisition and retention. So do you think IT should be part of an organization's overall talent strategy?

[00:27:29] Erika: And if so, how can organizations leverage technology? I know my experience in leading talent acquisition in the past has been, you know, you'd have great employees or great potential candidates and they'd want to know like, what's the organization's tech stack? What tools am I going to be using? So can you perhaps expand a bit more on that from what you've learned through Indeed and, uh, some perhaps surveys and reach outs, you've done.

[00:27:53] Michelle: The world of work is the world of working with people. So technology has a massive part in making it easier. But at the end of the day, you still need to make sure that it's people talking to people and creating relationships and a foundation of trust, respect, and a sense of belonging. Now I work for a tech company and I would be remiss not to say that there's tons and tons of opportunity out there to make it easier for recruiters, for making it easier for people who are looking to hire new talent.

[00:28:25] Michelle: Quite frankly, it's a very manual process for many, many organizations, and there's ways that you can optimize the hiring process. Not only for you as an employer, but also on the employee's end. So for anybody who's recently applied for a job, you can go around and around and around in circles trying to find time to actually meet and have an interview.

[00:28:46] Michelle: And so, Tools that just make it easier for scheduling interviews, for being able to have the interview on one platform so you're not switching between technology functions that you can take notes where your resume is uploaded and you don't have to upload it as a PDF and then retype in absolutely every single piece of information again. 

[00:29:05] Michelle: It can be incredibly time consuming and frustrating for people who are looking for a job. It also, from an employer's point of view, when you post a job, I'm hopeful that you get a lot of great applicants, but sifting through that sea of resumes, whether that's 50 resumes, a hundred, or even for some roles, over a thousand resumes, can take a tremendous amount of time.

[00:29:30] Michelle: So using tools that provide matching services, so match the skills you're looking for with the candidates that have those skills can make. So much easier to find qualified candidates and to find qualified candidates in areas that maybe hadn't been looking in either. So it goes back to my earlier point around diversity is there's a lot of people out there that may have been overlooked because they may look a little bit different.

[00:29:58] Michelle: Maybe they come from a different country and have been educated in a university that you may or may not recognize. It does not mean they don't have the skill to be an excellent candidate for your organization. So using technology to not only make it easier for an employee or a prospect who's looking at or joining your organization to go through the hiring process to make it speedy, efficient, and less frustrating, and then also for an employer's point of view to be able to find the best candidate as quickly as possible.

[00:30:30] Michelle: Technology can truly make that easier. In fact, Some of the tools can actually save about 90 per cent of the time that have been spent previously on manual recruiting tasks like scanning, resume, pre-screening talent, and confirming candidate interviews. That being said, for how do you work with your employees now that they've actually joined your organization?

[00:30:51] Michelle: Being clear and transparent about, as you mentioned, the tech stack, what does that actually mean? What are some of the programs that you offer? What are the softwares and uh, SAS tools that you use to be able to even have internal communications? Do you use Slack? Do you use Gchat? What are some of those things?

[00:31:09] Michelle: And I know for me, when I moved from, uh, financial services into the tech industry, probably the hardest thing that I had to figure out was to move from a PC to a Mac. It's like starting fresh with how does this thing even turn on? Things like that are really important for employees and even the smallest details that you think, well, it's pretty straightforward.

[00:31:31] Michelle: They do matter to candidates and they do matter to your employees. Uh, another thing that I had mentioned earlier is around surveying your team and figuring out what's great for them. What is it that they are looking for? What are some of the things that they value? Technology can make that, again, much more streamlined.

[00:31:48] Michelle: So whether it is around the hiring process and speeding it up, or whether it's making sure your existing employees stay engaged and they're very clear on what the expectations are, tech can really provide that foundational layer to make it easier, more efficient, quicker and considerably less frustrating for the employee as well as the employer.

[00:32:11] Erika: Great points. Great points. And I know that it's been proven and a lot of organizations talk about, you know, people when they join an organization, they want to know that it's easy to do the job and not meaning that the job's not hard or challenging, but knowing that they have the right tools at their fingertips.

[00:32:28] Erika: I've heard many in the sales space as an example, say that when they're interviewing, if they are a strong, successful salesperson, they're asking questions about, you know, what's your CRM? What's your customer system that you're using? And if it's one they haven't heard of, they'll be like, whoa, I've been working for years with say something like salesforce.com, and I've been used to the Cadillac.

[00:32:49] Erika: They think about all the manual intervention they might have to do, which would slow them down from earning the compensation that they would naturally earn in sales. So it's really what are the tools? And the thing I love that you said is make it easy for people to apply. I mean, my gosh, um, can't tell you experience over the years with how many organizations and the hoops they want people to go through, and people just, it's kind of like the shopping cart, right?

[00:33:12] Erika: If you make it too hard or I can't find it going to abandon and I'm just going to go somewhere else. So that's a great point. Making things easy. 

[00:33:19] Michelle: Yeah. You want to take away the friction when you're trying to hire great talent, especially when the unemployment rate is so low, is that if you've, you know, it's, we've talked about it earlier, it's hard to find the next best great employee.

[00:33:33] Michelle: So if you add all these friction points in it, it's just as easy to hit the back button when you're applying for a job as it is when you're shopping and you're like, ah, I don't really think what's right for me and quite honestly of culture and the company of what it stands for. If it's a kind of an awkward feeling when you're applying, it does say something about the company culture overall.

[00:33:54] Michelle: So, you know, keep it in mind. Um, what we often recommend to a lot of our clients who work with at Indeed is. Why don't you try to imply for a job at your own company using the tools that you offer and you can quickly identify the friction points in the hiring process. So, you know, I do that actually regularly whenever I'm hiring someone for to join my team is I just make sure that I go through it myself and I'm like, oh, I would definitely either abandon this process or I've made it as easy as possible. 

 [00:34:22] Erika: That's great. And I, I'm going to say that's a challenge for all of our listeners here today, and that is try and apply for a role within your own organization and see, and see if you would actually follow through on the process. That's a, that's a great way to look at that.

[00:34:43] Erika: So I want to ask you as we round out here, and that is, if you had to pick one area for organizations to improve on in terms of attracting and retaining their talent for 2023. So balance of 2023, what would it be and why? 

[00:34:59] Michelle: The one thing that I would look at is making sure that you are looking for talent in all areas, and particularly in underserved areas.  

[00:35:09] Michelle: At Indeed, we've got a goal of helping 30 million job seekers who are facing barriers get hired by 2030. So in just a few short years, we want to make sure that people who may have had some challenges with their past, whether that is in terms of people who are formally incarcerated, maybe it's people who are new to a particular country, individuals who have a disability, people who are frankly right now overlooked in terms of getting a great job. 

[00:35:40] Michelle: And so that's the area I'd focus on is looking for talent in underserved areas. For many companies who are thinking of like, how do I get a new person to join my organization? There are many, many individuals out there that unfortunately, due to potentially a disability they have are overlooked. And for most companies being able to make their workplace accessible. 

[00:36:03] Michelle: Doesn't entail very much, and it doesn't actually entail very much money either. It could be something like offering slightly more flexibility for individuals who may be hard of hearing, maybe some flexible work options for individuals who may have a physical limitation of being able to get into a workplace. 

[00:36:24] Michelle: For individuals who may have visual impairments, again, it could be bigger screens or it could be software. With reading what would be on a screen. Things like that can open up opportunities for frankly, millions of workers to have great paying jobs and to feel satisfied. That work is so important to all of us, and it should be accessible for every single person.

[00:36:48] Michelle: So whether it's. Thinking of your diversity initiatives, it's thinking about hiring a veteran, working with minority owned businesses, thinking of what the role of women is in your workplace, and making sure that there is a ladder for success for women. Um, all of those areas of focusing on talent and focusing on talent.  

[00:37:12] Michelle: Primarily from underserved areas, I think will make organizations, uh, blossom. I know for me, when I work in a diverse team with people from all different backgrounds who have different ways of thinking, who may have different needs than I do, they come to meetings with brand new ideas and I actually think that makes for a much more joyful workplace, but it also means that you're more creative, you're more flexible, and you're more nimble to be able to respond to change. So my one thing if I was to encourage all organizations to consider is to look for talent in those areas that you may have overlooked in the past. Look at underserved communities.

[00:37:54] Michelle: Look at people who have potentially faced societal barriers and bring them on board. Open up the doors to ensuring that you are giving people the right for a really great job.  

[00:38:08] Erika: Michelle, it's been an absolute pleasure having you here with us today on the podcast and, uh, some great insights. Indeed has been a phenomenal resource for us here at Softchoice as well.

[00:38:19] Erika: So want to thank you for that and your ongoing partnership and support. So thank you for people that, um, would like to learn more or would like to perhaps follow you, see what's going on in your indeed world and your career. Is there a way for people to follow you? 

[00:38:33] Michelle: There's a couple of ways that you can follow me.

[00:38:36] Michelle: Check me out on LinkedIn under my name, Michelle Slater, or you can follow me on Twitter and also it's my name at Michelle Slater is my Twitter handle. 

[00:38:44] Erika: Awesome, thank you. Want to wish you all the best. So thank you for joining us. Thanks very much.

[00:38:53] Erika: As we move forward to this new era of work, organizations must stay nimble and adapt to these emerging work trends that put the well-being and priorities of talent first in order to thrive in a rapidly changing talent landscape. And speaking of change, I have some news to share with our listeners, and it's interesting, the last few years have provided the opportunity for leaders, particularly IT leaders to become more human.

[00:39:21] Erika: Let's face it, before the pandemic functions like HR, IT, and workplace, we're buried deep in the background of most organizations. With every big challenge comes opportunity, and for those of us that have been leading IT, HR, and workplace, it meant our people and the amazing things they do every single day were in the spotlight. 

[00:39:44] Erika: The pandemic meant that huge light shining on the intersection of people and technology, and it could not have been stronger. I am so proud of our listeners and organizations that have actually taken some of those elements that we've discussed over the last few years and actually built it in as part of their move forward strategy. 

[00:40:04] Erika: It is about people and it is about technology, but we have to make them together. So with that, my time at Softchoice has come to an end. Thank you. It's been a pleasure and dear listeners; it's been so much fun being here with you. Thank you for listening. And don't forget to tune in on March 29th for a brand new season of The Catalyst with Cheryl and Aaron.

TRAILER FOR SEASON 5

[00:40:36] Aaron: Hey Cheryl. What you working on?

[00:40:36] Cheryl: Hey, you know how I was supposed to write that trailer script? Well, I thought I'd try to get ChatGPT to do it. 

[00:40:44] Aaron: Oh my God. That's genius. 

[00:40:46] Cheryl: Let's see. Write a two-minute podcast trailer that announces a brand new season of the most exciting IT podcast of 2023. 

 [00:40:55] Aaron: Oh, that's good. Oh, hey, tell it to announce the new co-host. 

(keyboard typing)

[00:41:00] Cheryl: Done. 

[00:41:02] Aaron: Ah, yeah. Looks good. Looks good. This looks great.

[00:41:05] Cheryl: Yeah, I think so too. Let's do. Hey there listeners, and welcome back to season five of The Catalyst. 

[00:41:13] Aaron: We're gearing up to launch our biggest, most fascinating season ever. And some of you long time listeners might be noticing something a little different.

[00:41:20] Cheryl: Like for example, our voices 

[00:41:22] Aaron: That's exactly right, our voices. Uh, I am Aaron Brooks. I am Softchoice’s Vice President of customer strategy and Solution. 

[00:41:22] Cheryl: And I'm Cheryl Stokes. I'm the Vice President of Revenue Growth and Marketing here at Softchoice.

 [00:41:36] Aaron: So our voices have changed. Yes, but not everything has changed.

[00:41:38] Cheryl: We're still going to bring you the best stories at the intersection of technology and what it means to be human. 

 [00:41:45] Aaron: Starting March 29th, we'll be deep diving into the latest developments in AI, exploring the role technology plays in sustainability. And taking a closer look at the new economic reality facing IT leaders in 2023

[00:41:56] Cheryl: Every two weeks, one of us will be sitting down with a new amazing guest, including the top business and IT leaders who are driving the world's most innovative digital transformation projects. 

[00:42:10] Aaron: But it's not just about the big players. We'll also be exploring how these trends impact everyday people like us and discuss ways to adapt to such a fast pace change.

[00:42:20] Cheryl: And let's not forget about the power of our new AI friend ChatGPT, who I'm told will be writing most of the scripts this season. Hey, who knows? It might even replace the host next year. 

[00:42:30] Aaron: Uh, come on. Nobody can replace you, Cheryl, but in the world of IT, I guess anything is possible. So buckle up and get ready for an exciting journey through the world of digital transformation brought to you by...

[00:42:41] Cheryl: The Catalyst, a podcast by Softchoice. 

[00:42:46] Aaron: Season five launches March 29th. Subscribe now on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts.