Thinking 2 Think

The Psychology of Obedience

• Michael Antonio Aponte • Episode 51

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Series: Obedient Nation

Episode 1 of 5: The Psychology of Obedience

Hosts:  Dr. Elias Quinn and Lyra Morgan 

We explore the startling capacity of ordinary people to obey authority figures, even when directed to perform acts that violate their personal conscience and moral codes.

• Drawing from Michael Aponte's "The Shock Heard Around the World," we examine Milgram's famous obedience experiments
• 65% of participants administered what they believed were potentially lethal shocks simply because an authority figure instructed them to continue
• Three psychological mechanisms enable blind obedience: the agentic state, incremental compliance, and moral framing 
• These same forces operate in cults, political tribalism, and groupthink scenarios
• The COVID-19 pandemic revealed similar patterns of compliance, social pressure, and suppression of dissent
• Understanding these mechanisms within ourselves is the first step toward maintaining independent critical thinking
• Cultivating awareness and discernment helps us resist harmful influence while holding true to our values

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Lyra Morgan:

Okay, let me ask you something like right off the bat Would you shock a stranger until they screamed, just because you know someone told you to? It sounds like something out of a well, a chilling psychological thriller, doesn't it?

Dr. Elias Quinn:

It really does A dark fantasy almost, yeah, but this isn't hypothetical't it?

Lyra Morgan:

It really does A dark fantasy, almost, yeah, but this isn't hypothetical, is it? It's actually a profound, yeah, deeply uncomfortable question about human behavior and it's right at the core of our deep dive. Today. We're about to confront that real tension between obedience and, well, your own conscience.

Dr. Elias Quinn:

That internal conflict.

Lyra Morgan:

Exactly, and I'll say it, it's not an easy topic to unpack, it might feel pretty unsettling. That internal conflict, exactly, and I'll say it, it's not an easy topic to unpack, it might feel pretty unsettling.

Dr. Elias Quinn:

It often does.

Lyra Morgan:

But understanding it. It feels vital, like really vital for making sense of ourselves, our choices, the world.

Dr. Elias Quinn:

It really is. It reveals this hidden architecture of influence, you could say, that shapes so much of what we do, often without us realizing it. And to help us navigate this tricky landscape, we're drawing heavily from a really fascinating piece of work. It's by Michael Aponte, called the Shock Heard Around the World, and his work delves with just remarkable insight into humanity's startling capacity for what some might call well blind obedience.

Dr. Elias Quinn:

But Appant meticulously explores just how far we as individuals might actually go when faced with an authority figure, or even just intense group pressure telling us basically just follow orders.

Lyra Morgan:

Just follow orders.

Dr. Elias Quinn:

So our mission today really is to unpack those psychological forces. What's happening when our sense of right and wrong, that internal compass, collides head on with authority or the pressure of the group? We'll look at the historical insights which are foundational here and then, maybe surprisingly, connect them to their modern day echoes, which are incredibly relevant and sometimes, yeah, unsettling.

Lyra Morgan:

Okay, so let's unpack this, and I think the best way is to really try and step into the shoes, the uncomfortable shoes, of someone in that famous study, the Milgram experiment.

Dr. Elias Quinn:

Yes, the classic.

Lyra Morgan:

So imagine, imagine you volunteered for what sounds like a pretty standard study right, memory and learning. Maybe you saw a flyer at a university, maybe you needed a few bucks.

Dr. Elias Quinn:

Seems harmless enough, mundane even.

Lyra Morgan:

Totally so. You arrive and you're greeted by a man in a crisp white lab coat. Looks very official, maybe a bit serious the picture of scientific authority.

Dr. Elias Quinn:

The symbolism is important.

Lyra Morgan:

He explains the setup, the study's purpose, all sounds legit. And then he leads you into a room and you sit down in front of this machine. It looks formidable. A shock generator looks incredibly real.

Dr. Elias Quinn:

And that sense of absolute realism was paramount. It was meticulously designed For the participants. Every detail, every little cue was crafted to make them believe, like 100%, that they were delivering genuine shocks.

Lyra Morgan:

Getting more and more painful.

Dr. Elias Quinn:

Exactly and potentially lethal. They were told it was about punishment and learning. They drew lots, seemingly, and got the role of teacher Right. The learner actually an actor, a kind of friendly looking middle-aged guy was strapped into a chair next door electrodes attached, all very visible to the participant.

Lyra Morgan:

They saw him get strapped in.

Dr. Elias Quinn:

Yes, and his reactions, the grunts, the shouts, the eventual screams, all simulated but utterly, utterly convincing.

Lyra Morgan:

Wow, so they had no reason to doubt it was real.

Dr. Elias Quinn:

None whatsoever.

Lyra Morgan:

Okay, so here you are, the teacher in front of this machine switch is clearly labeled right Starting low, slight shock, maybe 15 volts, then moderate, strong, climbing up, up, up, all the way to this terrifying XX450 volts.

Dr. Elias Quinn:

Ominously marks not just numbers, but danger signs too.

Lyra Morgan:

Yeah, like danger, severe shock and then just XXX chilling.

Dr. Elias Quinn:

Right.

Lyra Morgan:

And the man in the lab coat, the authority figure, is right there, standing beside you, impassive.

Dr. Elias Quinn:

Just observing calmly.

Lyra Morgan:

And his instructions are simple, almost robotic. Administer a shock to the learner every time they get a question wrong, and then, well, it begins the procedure starts. First few shops low voltage, you hear the learner. Maybe a little grunt, an uncomfortable sound, nothing too bad.

Dr. Elias Quinn:

Manageable perhaps.

Lyra Morgan:

Yeah, you keep going. Learner gets some wrong. You flip the next switch and the next, but then the voltage climbs. You hear a louder grunt, then a definite shout, followed by complaints. Something about a heart condition the stakes are rising your hand probably hesitates, then right over the switch you'd think so, you'd hope so then it gets worse.

Lyra Morgan:

Horrifyingly, actual screams of pain from the next room. He's pleading to be let out, complaining about the pain, the heart. You hesitate, definitely hesitate. Now your stomach's probably churning, maybe you're sweating signs of extreme stress were very common hands trembling maybe yeah you look over at the man in the white lab coat, kind of hoping he'll say, okay, that's enough.

Dr. Elias Quinn:

A silent plea exactly, and this is where the core dilemma just crystallizes. The participant, the teacher, is undeniably distressed. They believe they're causing real harm, escalating harm. Yeah, their conscience, that basic sense of right and wrong, it's screaming stop.

Lyra Morgan:

Right.

Dr. Elias Quinn:

Yet when they look to the authority the lab coat guy he's calm, composed and passive.

Lyra Morgan:

Doesn't react to the screams at all.

Dr. Elias Quinn:

No, he doesn't raise his voice, doesn't threaten, he just calmly repeats these prescripted lines, these prods like please continue.

Lyra Morgan:

Please continue.

Dr. Elias Quinn:

Or as the teacher gets more upset, the experiment requires that you continue. Oh man, if they object more strongly, it escalates. It is absolutely essential that you continue.

Lyra Morgan:

Essential Wow.

Dr. Elias Quinn:

And the final one If they really push back, you have no other choice. You must go on.

Lyra Morgan:

You have no other choice.

Dr. Elias Quinn:

The internal conflict becomes immense, a real battle your morals versus this demand.

Lyra Morgan:

So what do you do? I mean, what do you do when your conscience is screaming louder than the learner, when everything inside you says this is wrong, so wrong, but the authority figure, mr Labcoat, insists. You have no other choice.

Dr. Elias Quinn:

That is the terrifying question, isn't it?

Lyra Morgan:

Yeah, and it's what Michael Aponte's work, the Shock Heard Around the World, explores so deeply. And the answer, the answer Milgram found that Aponte analyzes. It's just unsettling. It really challenges how we think about ourselves.

Dr. Elias Quinn:

It absolutely does and this is the core finding, one that stunned people and still does A staggering 65 percent, two thirds of the participants 65. Continued to administer what they believe were potentially lethal shocks. It went all the way to the maximum 450 volts.

Lyra Morgan:

Mark Dick X. Wow, even believing it could kill someone.

Dr. Elias Quinn:

Believing it entirely. And crucially, this wasn't easy for them. They weren't callous. No, far from it. The records show them sweating, trembling, stuttering, arguing, some even had nervous laughter, trying to cope.

Lyra Morgan:

But they still did it.

Dr. Elias Quinn:

They still did it, deeply conflicted, but they obeyed.

Lyra Morgan:

What.

Dr. Elias Quinn:

In some versions, even when the learner went completely silent, suggesting unconsciousness or worse, oh God, a significant number still administered the maximum shock. Yeah, just because the authority said to.

Lyra Morgan:

That's beyond belief, almost.

Dr. Elias Quinn:

It wasn't about a lack of feeling. It was about something powerful overriding that feeling.

Lyra Morgan:

Isn't it just terrifying how quickly people can apparently silence their own conscience, that inner voice, just when faced with someone who looks like they're in charge?

Dr. Elias Quinn:

And makes you pause definitely.

Lyra Morgan:

Are we all just, you know, one lab coat away from doing something horrible, something against our core values? It's a chilling thought.

Dr. Elias Quinn:

Well, what's really fascinating here and maybe the most uncomfortable part is that these weren't bad people. They weren't outliers or sociopaths.

Lyra Morgan:

They were just normal people.

Dr. Elias Quinn:

Exactly Ordinary people teachers, engineers, workers, drawn from all walks of life, like you, like me.

Lyra Morgan:

OK.

Dr. Elias Quinn:

And that's what we have to confront these powerful innate psychological mechanisms inside all of us, mechanisms that can lead to this kind of blind obedience under the right or maybe the wrong conditions.

Lyra Morgan:

So it's not a character flaw, it's something situational, human.

Dr. Elias Quinn:

It's about universal human tendencies, patterns of thinking and behaving that get activated by situational pressures. It reveals a kind of fundamental vulnerability in how we make decisions.

Lyra Morgan:

Okay. So if it's not about people being evil, how does it happen? How do normal people do things they know are wrong, even when they're obviously upset about?

Dr. Elias Quinn:

it Right. How does that shift occur?

Lyra Morgan:

Yeah.

Dr. Elias Quinn:

Well, michael Aponte, in the Shock Heard Around the World, really digs into these underlying mechanisms. He explains how they transform good intentions or moral feelings into actions that seem to contradict them. These are just theories in a book. They're powerful forces shaping our choices all the time, often invisibly.

Lyra Morgan:

Okay, what are these mechanisms?

Dr. Elias Quinn:

Well, the first, really crucial one is called the agentic state. Agent, invisibly Okay. Like what are these mechanisms? Well, the first, really crucial one is called the agentic state.

Lyra Morgan:

Agentic state Okay.

Dr. Elias Quinn:

In this state, people stop seeing themselves as independent actors making their own moral choices. Instead, they see themselves as instruments, just tools carrying out someone else's will.

Lyra Morgan:

Like a cog in a machine.

Dr. Elias Quinn:

Precisely. They effectively hand over personal responsibility for their actions to the authority figure.

Lyra Morgan:

So they tell themselves I'm just doing my job or it's not my fault.

Dr. Elias Quinn:

Exactly that. I'm just following orders. The person in charge is responsible, not me, and this psychological shift is incredibly powerful because it kind of disarms your own moral judgment.

Lyra Morgan:

How so.

Dr. Elias Quinn:

Well, if you don't feel personally responsible for the outcome, you don't engage your own ethics in the same way. Right, your sense of right and wrong gets sidelined.

Lyra Morgan:

Ah, okay, that makes a scary kind of sense.

Dr. Elias Quinn:

In the Milgram study you heard participants saying things like I was just following orders or telling the experimenter it's your responsibility. It wasn't just an excuse after the fact. It reflected their mental state during the experiment.

Lyra Morgan:

And you see this elsewhere too, right? Not just in labs.

Dr. Elias Quinn:

Oh, constantly Think about bureaucratic situations, military contexts. The infamous defense of Adolf Eichmann, who managed the logistics for the Holocaust, was exactly this. I was just following orders.

Lyra Morgan:

Chilling.

Dr. Elias Quinn:

Profoundly disturbing, yes, but it illustrates the agentic state taken to its absolute extreme. You psychologically distance yourself from the consequences. By seeing yourself as just an instrument, you outsource the morality.

Lyra Morgan:

Wow, okay. Yeah, that's a lot to take in. It feels like a way to numb yourself to what you're doing, but still, here's the thing that gets me Jumping straight to 450 volts. That feels like a huge leap, even if you're shifting. Blim, it wasn't like they started there right. There must have been a buildup.

Dr. Elias Quinn:

Exactly right. And that brings us straight to the second mechanism, which is just as insidious. Really. It's incremental compliance, often called the slippery slope. The slippery slope yeah, I've heard that term. It's a powerful idea that taking small, seemingly insignificant steps makes much bigger, more extreme actions easier down the line.

Lyra Morgan:

Because you've already started down the path.

Dr. Elias Quinn:

Precisely Think about it. If Milgram had said right first instruction give this guy 450 volts, what would have happened?

Lyra Morgan:

Nobody would do it, or almost nobody. It's too big a jump.

Dr. Elias Quinn:

Exactly, it's a moral chasm, but that's not how it worked. It started small 15 volts, then 30. Kind of increments. Each switch was just one more, just a little bit more than the last one.

Lyra Morgan:

Which just seems so bad.

Dr. Elias Quinn:

Right, because the previous shock wasn't a catastrophe, the next small step feels less daunting, less significant.

Lyra Morgan:

It normalizes it step by step.

Dr. Elias Quinn:

Perfectly put. It normalizes behavior that would be unthinkable if presented all at once. It's like that analogy about boiling a frog slowly.

Lyra Morgan:

Yeah, put it in cool water and heat it up gradually.

Dr. Elias Quinn:

Right. The change is so slow. The frog doesn't realize the danger until it's too late.

Lyra Morgan:

Whereas if you dropped it in boiling water, it'd jump right out.

Dr. Elias Quinn:

Exactly Each small step. Once you take it and rationalize it, makes the next step feel like less of a big deal, Until suddenly you're at a place you never imagined doing, things you never thought you could.

Lyra Morgan:

You see that in everyday life too, don't you Small compromises adding up?

Dr. Elias Quinn:

All the time. The little request at work that grows into something unethical, the tiny lie that leads to bigger ones. It's a very common human pattern.

Lyra Morgan:

OK, so it's not just fear of authority or shifting responsibility via the agentic state, or even just the slippery slope. It also sounds like how the whole action is presented, how it's framed, is crucial.

Dr. Elias Quinn:

Absolutely crucial. And that brings us to the third powerful mechanism moral framing.

Lyra Morgan:

Moral framing yeah.

Dr. Elias Quinn:

Michael Aponte's work really highlights this. Obedience is often positioned not just as compliance, but as something virtuous, necessary, even protective.

Lyra Morgan:

So you make the bad thing seem like a good thing, or at least a necessary thing.

Dr. Elias Quinn:

Precisely, it's about making the act of obeying seem morally defensible, maybe even noble, which then overrides your personal ethical objections.

Lyra Morgan:

How did that work in Milgram?

Dr. Elias Quinn:

Well, the authority figure kept framing it as being for the good of science, emphasizing how important the research was.

Lyra Morgan:

Ah, the greater good argument.

Dr. Elias Quinn:

Exactly, he wasn't asking them to be cruel, you see, he was asking them to contribute to scientific understanding.

Lyra Morgan:

Which sounds much better.

Dr. Elias Quinn:

Much better, and this moral framing can powerfully override personal ethics. If you believe you're serving some higher purpose science, security, the company, the country then the harmful act can be rationalized. You feel like a duty.

Lyra Morgan:

It taps into our desire to be good, right To do the right thing.

Dr. Elias Quinn:

Absolutely, and it helps resolve cognitive dissonance, that uncomfortable feeling when your actions clash with your beliefs. If you reframe the action as moral or necessary, the dissonance dissolves. Obedience feels less like a transgression, more like fulfilling an obligation. Apande actually poses a really sharp reflection question in his work. How does moral framing shape your readiness to obey?

Lyra Morgan:

Oof. Yeah, that hits, home.

Dr. Elias Quinn:

It forces us to think about how often we just accept the frame someone else gives us for an action without really questioning it.

Lyra Morgan:

And how that frame then dictates our response.

Dr. Elias Quinn:

Often without us even realizing. We're being manipulated by the narrative. We think we're acting morally, but we're just obeying a script that serves someone else's agenda, potentially leading us to support things we'd normally find awful.

Lyra Morgan:

Okay, these three mechanisms the agentic state, incremental compliance, moral framing they feel incredibly powerful, like invisible threads pulling us and it just makes you think how do these play out beyond the lab, beyond Milburn, where else do we see these patterns? Because it feels like they're everywhere, even without the lab coat and the shock machine.

Dr. Elias Quinn:

You're absolutely right, they are everywhere and Apont in his analysis definitely extends beyond the lab. He shows how these exact same patterns of obedience and conformity show up powerfully in the real world, especially in the dynamics of cults and also broader phenomena like groupthink.

Lyra Morgan:

Cults and groupthink Okay.

Dr. Elias Quinn:

In those settings you see similar strategies at play, just as effective, maybe even more so, because they're integrated into people's lives.

Lyra Morgan:

So how does that look?

Dr. Elias Quinn:

Well, first think about the role of charismatic leaders in cults.

Lyra Morgan:

Right, they always seem to have one.

Dr. Elias Quinn:

These aren't just leaders. They often have this magnetic pull. They inspire intense devotion, command unwavering loyalty. They tap into deep human needs, belonging, purpose, meaning, safety, and offer grand promises, simple answers.

Lyra Morgan:

Which is very appealing when you feel lost or vulnerable.

Dr. Elias Quinn:

Incredibly appealing it creates. This powerful emotional bond makes followers highly susceptible to their directives, no matter how irrational or harmful they might seem from the outside.

Lyra Morgan:

The leader becomes the ultimate authority. Their word is law.

Dr. Elias Quinn:

Essentially yes. Their vision becomes the only reality and disagreeing isn't just disagreeing, it's betrayal, it's a threat.

Lyra Morgan:

Which leads to suppressing dissent.

Dr. Elias Quinn:

Directly To maintain that kind of extreme cohesion you see in cults or even in strong groupthink environments, you have to silence questioning voices.

Lyra Morgan:

How do they do that?

Dr. Elias Quinn:

Various ways Shaming, isolation, psychological pressure, public humiliation, sometimes much worse.

Lyra Morgan:

So people become afraid to speak up.

Dr. Elias Quinn:

Exactly. It becomes incredibly difficult to voice doubts, to think critically or even consider alternatives. It triggers that spiral of silence effect.

Lyra Morgan:

Spiral of silence.

Dr. Elias Quinn:

Yeah, where, if you think your view is in the minority, you're less likely to say it out loud for fear of isolation. So the dominant view seems even stronger than it is. The pressure to conform becomes immense. Questioning the group feels like questioning your own identity.

Lyra Morgan:

Creates a real echo chamber A powerful one.

Dr. Elias Quinn:

And then there's fear, control.

Lyra Morgan:

Fear, that seems key.

Dr. Elias Quinn:

Absolutely potent and it's not always physical threat. It's fear of being kicked out, fear of losing salvation, fear of some external enemy. The leader identifies.

Lyra Morgan:

Or just fear of the unknown outside the group?

Dr. Elias Quinn:

Right Fear that only the group or the leader can protect you from. When people are operating out of that deep fear, their critical thinking just tanks.

Lyra Morgan:

They'll cling to whatever promises safety.

Dr. Elias Quinn:

No matter how extreme, because the alternative seems even more terrifying.

Lyra Morgan:

And all this? The leader, the silence, the fear. It leads to people becoming really diehard defenders.

Dr. Elias Quinn:

Incredibly loyal defenders, yeah, even of ideas or practices that seem clearly harmful or bizarre to outsiders. Once their identity is totally wrapped up in the group, its beliefs, the leader, they become fanatical defenders.

Lyra Morgan:

It's not necessarily because they're bad people.

Dr. Elias Quinn:

Not necessarily. It's the power of that group, identity conformity, the psychological investment, the group's truth becomes everything, overriding individual morality or contrary evidence.

Lyra Morgan:

They might even start dehumanizing outsiders.

Dr. Elias Quinn:

Often happens it's called outgroup derogation Makes it easier to justify negative actions against those who aren't us.

Lyra Morgan:

Wow, that's, yeah, a really disturbing picture of how groups can work. But let's shift gears slightly to something maybe even more common, more part of our daily lives now Politics. How do these same forces show up there? Because the lines get drawn so sharply, ideologies feel almost sacred. Sometimes, identity and politics seem totally tangled.

Dr. Elias Quinn:

That's a crucial application and Aponte addresses it directly. He talks about political obedience as identity.

Lyra Morgan:

Political obedience as identity.

Dr. Elias Quinn:

Okay, it describes this phenomenon of deep, sometimes blind, loyalty to political leaders, parties, ideologies, where your sense of self, who you are, gets fundamentally tied to your political side.

Lyra Morgan:

It's not just what you think, it's your identity, your tribe.

Dr. Elias Quinn:

Exactly. It becomes a core part of who you are, your moral standing, your social circle. It defines you and this often leads to that stark tribal split. The other side isn't just wrong, they're framed as fundamentally immoral, dangerous, evil even.

Lyra Morgan:

Yeah, you hear that rhetoric. If you're not with us, you're immoral.

Dr. Elias Quinn:

That kind of extreme moral framing demonizes opposing views. It makes reasoned debate finding common ground almost impossible.

Lyra Morgan:

Because disagreeing isn't just a difference of opinion.

Dr. Elias Quinn:

It's portrayed as a moral failing, a betrayal, wickedness or stupidity, which makes it incredibly hard psychologically to question your own side, your own identity. You risk being cast out.

Lyra Morgan:

And in today's world, technology plays a role here too, right? Algorithms, social media A huge role almost central.

Dr. Elias Quinn:

Aponte points this out too. These platforms are often designed to maximize engagement right, and they tend to amplify stuff that confirms your existing beliefs.

Lyra Morgan:

The echo chamber effect.

Dr. Elias Quinn:

Precisely, or filter bubbles. You're constantly fed information that validates your side and demonizes the other.

Lyra Morgan:

While suppressing different views.

Dr. Elias Quinn:

Exactly. You rarely encounter challenging perspectives or complex realities that might make you question things.

Lyra Morgan:

Which makes independent critical thought really really difficult.

Dr. Elias Quinn:

Extremely difficult. Your loyalty, your obedience to your political identity just gets stronger and stronger. It's a feedback loop.

Lyra Morgan:

So the digital world becomes this engine for tribal conformity, reinforcing that our side is right and moral.

Dr. Elias Quinn:

Making dissent feel dangerous, even immoral, ensuring you stick with the group's truth.

Lyra Morgan:

Okay, wow. So considering all this Milgram, the agentic state, slippery, slow, moral framing cults, political tribes, it feels almost inevitable to connect it to recent history, to the pandemic, especially since Aponte himself draws that parallel, suggesting that the global compliance mirrored Milgram's findings during COVID.

Dr. Elias Quinn:

Yes, he makes that explicit connection.

Lyra Morgan:

And just to be really clear here, we're not aiming to judge the pandemic responses themselves or take sides. It's about using that shared, intense global experience as a case study, looking at it through this specific lens of obedience and these psychological mechanisms.

Dr. Elias Quinn:

Exactly, it's an objective lens, using it as a case study, and when you do that, the parallels are quite striking.

Lyra Morgan:

Okay, like what parallels stand out?

Dr. Elias Quinn:

Well, first think about the immense trust placed in institutions.

Lyra Morgan:

Right CDC, the WHO national health bodies.

Dr. Elias Quinn:

For huge numbers of people these became the ultimate authority figures, Kind of like the lab coat in Milgram.

Lyra Morgan:

Yeah, I can see that.

Dr. Elias Quinn:

Their guidance, even when it changed rapidly or seemed contradictory at times.

Lyra Morgan:

Which it definitely did.

Dr. Elias Quinn:

Was often accepted by large parts of the population without much individual questioning it heavily influenced behavior globally.

Lyra Morgan:

People deferred to the experts believed they had the answers.

Dr. Elias Quinn:

Believed. Following was the right, the responsible thing to do in a crisis. Then, second, you had the immense power of social pressure and fear.

Lyra Morgan:

Oh yeah, fear was massive.

Dr. Elias Quinn:

Fear of the virus itself getting sick, dying, infecting others. That was real and pervasive, combined with intense social pressure to conform to the measures Masks, distancing lockdowns, later vaccines. You had to show you were doing your part Exactly distancing lockdowns, later vaccines, you had to show you were doing your part Exactly. It wasn't just about rules, it was about avoiding threats, showing solidarity, being seen as responsible. That fear, amplified by media and messaging, made conformity feel like the safest, most moral sometimes the only socially acceptable path.

Lyra Morgan:

It taps into that need to belong, to be accepted.

Dr. Elias Quinn:

Definitely Normative social influence and just doing what everyone else seems to be doing.

Lyra Morgan:

And what about dissent If people did question things?

Dr. Elias Quinn:

Well mirroring those cult and groupthink dynamics. Dissent was often shamed or silenced.

Lyra Morgan:

Yeah, you definitely saw that online and elsewhere.

Dr. Elias Quinn:

Questioning official narratives, doubting mandates, proposing alternatives.

Lyra Morgan:

Yeah.

Dr. Elias Quinn:

You could quickly get labeled.

Lyra Morgan:

Right, misinformed, selfish, dangerous, anti-science, anti-vaxxer, all those labels.

Dr. Elias Quinn:

This social shaming, the risk of being ostracized, created a huge disincentive for public dissent.

Lyra Morgan:

Made it really hard for different ideas to even be heard, let alone discussed.

Dr. Elias Quinn:

Exactly it suppressed critical inquiry, reinforced the dominant narrative, pushed uncomfortable questions aside, much like in other high conformity groups.

Lyra Morgan:

It really does make you wonder, doesn't it that fear? It's such a powerful leash, a real tool for compliance, and you feel like some people wore it willingly, maybe out of genuine, deep concern for others wanting to protect people, or maybe just that powerful desire to belong, to be seen as a good person doing the right thing in a crisis.

Dr. Elias Quinn:

It's such a complex mix of motivations.

Lyra Morgan:

Yeah, the line between acting morally and just obeying seems so blurry sometimes.

Dr. Elias Quinn:

Or maybe look at it from another angle, equally human, perhaps it was fundamentally about seeking safety and certainty.

Lyra Morgan:

In a time that felt anything but safe or certain.

Dr. Elias Quinn:

Exactly Unprecedented uncertainty, constant anxiety, rapid change. In that environment, many people just wanted to feel good about their choices, feel secure, feel like they were on the right path, you know, yeah, even more than needing to be factually correct about every single evolving guideline.

Lyra Morgan:

That drive for certainty, for a clear path is strong.

Dr. Elias Quinn:

Incredibly strong. So maybe people embraced the prescribed path even as it shifted, because sticking with it offered a sense of security, a moral clarity that questioning just couldn't provide.

Lyra Morgan:

Which brings up the point about the guidance changing so much.

Dr. Elias Quinn:

Yes, and a pond highlights this specifically the evolving and often contradictory guidance.

Lyra Morgan:

Masks, testing origins, all sorts of things shifted.

Dr. Elias Quinn:

Right and those frequent changes, the contradictions. Sometimes they really underlined that compliance often seemed driven less by stable scientific fact and more by emotion, social cohesion, the desire for safety, the desire for it all to just end.

Lyra Morgan:

When the facts themselves seemed fluid.

Dr. Elias Quinn:

Obeying the current authority. The latest instruction might have felt psychologically safer than trying to figure it out yourself or questioning.

Lyra Morgan:

Questioning felt risky socially, maybe even physically.

Dr. Elias Quinn:

Could lead to that cognitive dissonance, isolation, feeling exposed. A Pond's reflection question here is so relevant for all of us. Looking back In the past three years, where have you seen group obedience override personal judgment?

Lyra Morgan:

Oof. Yeah, that requires some honest reflection.

Dr. Elias Quinn:

It invites us to think about our own experiences, our observations, knowing how complex human behavior really is, often driven by forces much deeper than just logic.

Lyra Morgan:

Wow, ok, so this entire deep dive drawing on Michael Aponte's, the shock heard around the world. It really leaves us wrestling with that central, challenging question, doesn't it? How far would you go just following orders? It hangs in the time. And maybe the follow-up question is what if the next order you follow, whether it's from a boss, a government, a social media trend, whatever? What if it inadvertently hurts someone else? Or, just as importantly, what if it hurts you by stopping you from thinking critically, by silencing your own conscience, eroding your own judgment?

Dr. Elias Quinn:

These aren't just lab scenarios. They're real dilemmas we face constantly.

Lyra Morgan:

Absolutely.

Dr. Elias Quinn:

And that's the real point of understanding all this. The goal isn't to make everyone cynical or distrustful of everything.

Lyra Morgan:

No.

Dr. Elias Quinn:

Right. The purpose, and I think Aponte's intention too, is to cultivate awareness, discernment. It's about recognizing these powerful psychological forces at play, not just out there but inside ourselves.

Lyra Morgan:

Knowing they exist is the first step.

Dr. Elias Quinn:

Exactly, and then finding the courage because it really does take courage sometimes to pause, to question, to think for yourself.

Lyra Morgan:

Even when it's uncomfortable or goes against the grain.

Dr. Elias Quinn:

Especially then, even when it means standing apart from the group. In this world just flooded with information and misinformation and influence, that ability to think independently, to hold on to your values, to assess critically, it's more vital than ever.

Lyra Morgan:

Yeah, it really, really is. This is the deep dive, because sometimes thinking for yourself is the most radical act, and we really want to extend a huge thank you to Michael Aponte, the author of the Shock Heard Around the World. Just fantastic, insightful work.

Dr. Elias Quinn:

Truly thought-provoking.

Lyra Morgan:

And thank you for letting us be part of the Thinking to Think community. It's great to explore these ideas together. If this deep dive sparked something for you, if it got you thinking, maybe arguing back a little, please you know the drill Subscribe, give us a like. Share the deep dive with other people, people who appreciate digging into these crucial, sometimes tough, but always important topics.

Dr. Elias Quinn:

Help spread the conversation.

Lyra Morgan:

Yeah, until next time, keep digging, keep questioning.

Dr. Elias Quinn:

And, above all, keep thinking for yourself.

People on this episode

Head Shot

M.A.Aponte

Host
Contributor

Dr. Elias Quinn

Co-host
Contributor

Lyra Morgan

Co-host