Thinking 2 Think

Narcissism: No One Clapped, Would You Still Matter?

• Michael Antonio Aponte • Episode 54

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A missed title at a conference shouldn’t spark a crisis of identity—yet for Elena, a decorated senior research fellow, it did. We follow that sharp sting and instant correction to uncover a deeper pattern: when confidence depends on credentials, minor slights can feel like existential threats. Using a vivid case from Aponte’s “The Mask of Credentials,” we explore how ego maintenance becomes brittle, how vulnerable narcissism hides behind quiet competence, and why the chase for recognition keeps failing to deliver durable self-worth.

We unpack the psychology from several angles. Freud gives us the frame for ego defenses, while contemporary research maps narcissism as a spectrum with grandiose and vulnerable forms. Kohut’s theory of missing mirroring explains the craving for external validation, and Kernberg’s model clarifies the split between a polished public image and a hidden core of shame. We trace two development pathways—chronic invalidation and overindulgence—and show how both can produce entitlement, poor frustration tolerance, and hypersensitivity to status cues. Then we widen the lens to culture: social media rewards the mask of success, driving a cycle of short-lived highs, escalating corrections, and brittle relationships.

Along the way, we examine the relational cost. When identity is outsourced to others’ reactions, people become instruments—mirrors to reflect a preferred image—rather than partners. Miss the cue, and value plummets. To break the loop, we share concrete practices: catch the surge when status feels threatened, pause before correcting, and ask, “Would I still believe in my value if no one noticed?” We introduce logical humility—the discipline of letting ideas stand on their own—so credentials become tools, not life support. Finally, we challenge a subtler mask: grandiose suffering, the move to claim specialness through hardship rather than achievement.

If you’ve ever felt your mood hinge on recognition, this conversation offers a path to steadier ground. Subscribe, share with a friend who loves psychology deep dives, and leave a review with your answer to our core question: what remains when no one is watching?

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SPEAKER_01:

Welcome back, everyone, to another deep dive here on the Thinking2Think podcast.

SPEAKER_00:

Great to be here.

SPEAKER_01:

Today we are uh really getting into something fascinating, maybe a little uncomfortable too. We're looking at achievement and ego. Or rather, why some really successful people, you know, the ones with all the degrees, the fancy titles, can sometimes have, well, the most fragile sense of who they are.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, it's this deep connection, isn't it, between chasing credentials and um maybe some underlying narcissistic tendencies. That's what we're unpacking.

SPEAKER_01:

Exactly. We're diving deep into the psychology of it all.

SPEAKER_00:

And our mission today, it's really grounded in this uh this brilliant little story, an anecdote from Emma Ponte's paper, The Mask of Credentials. It's so relatable.

SPEAKER_01:

It really is.

SPEAKER_00:

And we're gonna use that, plus our whole stack of sources, everything from Freud to, you know, modern personality theories to really get under the hood of this reliance on titles.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay, let's set the scene with that story then. It revolves around this professional, uh, Elena.

SPEAKER_00:

And she's the picture of success, right? Three college degrees, tons of experience, and this job title, she's really proud of, senior research fellow. Clearly worked hard for it.

SPEAKER_01:

Absolutely. Someone you'd assume is incredibly confident.

SPEAKER_00:

So she's at this important meeting, maybe a conference, ready to share her expertise. Everything seems normal.

SPEAKER_01:

But then comes the introduction. A colleague, probably trying to be quick or maybe just casual, introduces her.

SPEAKER_00:

And instead of listing everything, the degrees, the fellowship.

SPEAKER_01:

He just says, I'd like to introduce Dr. Morgan.

SPEAKER_00:

Simple enough, right?

SPEAKER_01:

You'd think so.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

But Aponte points out, Elena felt this immediate, like sharp, a small sting inside.

SPEAKER_00:

Oof. Yeah. That internal jolt.

SPEAKER_01:

It was like an alarm went off, a feeling of being slighted, somehow diminished. And her reaction was instant, almost automatic.

SPEAKER_00:

What did she do?

SPEAKER_01:

She jumped in, corrected him right away. Actually, I'm a senior research fellow at Oxford.

SPEAKER_00:

Wow. Okay. So not just, oh, you forgot my title, but the full prestigious marker. Exactly. And that's the core of it, isn't it? A Ponza's analysis isn't about manners, it's about the mind rushing to protect a sense of self that felt, well, threatened.

SPEAKER_01:

Right. When your feeling of worth is all tied up in those external things, the title, the university, the award, it your confidence is actually uh incredibly fragile.

SPEAKER_00:

So any little disregard, even something seemingly minor like that introduction.

SPEAKER_01:

It feels like a major attack. The ego kicks in defensively, sometimes aggressively. It needs to reassert that external marker to feel safe again.

SPEAKER_00:

It makes you wonder why such a strong reaction. A senior research fellow at Oxford, objectively successful, why does a simple Dr. Morgan cause a sting? It feels disproportionate.

SPEAKER_01:

It does feel disproportionate from the outside, which tells us there's a deeper psychological engine running here. And that takes us straight to, well, Freud and the concept of the ego.

SPEAKER_00:

Okay, the classic ego.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. Freud saw the ego as, you know, the part of us that deals with reality. It helps define who we think we are.

SPEAKER_00:

Kind of the manager of the per personality.

SPEAKER_01:

Sort of, yeah. And critically, it defends us when we feel uncertain or attacked. It's supposed to be this healthy balance, right? Between our basic desires, our morals, and how we see ourselves.

SPEAKER_00:

But Freud also talked about when that self-focus goes wrong.

SPEAKER_01:

He did. He linked excessive self-centeredness, turning too far inward, to what we now really understand through the lens of narcissism.

SPEAKER_00:

So there's a line. The ego itself isn't bad. We need it.

SPEAKER_01:

Absolutely need it. For basic functioning.

SPEAKER_00:

But when does it cross over? When does that focus on the self become, well, pathological, that needy hunt for validation?

SPEAKER_01:

Aaron Powell It crosses over when healthy self-love, the basic self-esteem you need to set goals, take care of yourself, gets replaced by this desperate dependence on outside approval. That's the shift into unhealthy narcissism. And if they get that approval, they feel okay, stable, maybe even great. But the second that external validation wobbles, if the praise stops, or someone questions them or introduces them wrongly.

SPEAKER_00:

Defensiveness, anger.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. Or deep insecurity rushes in. Because their sense of worth isn't internal. It's totally conditional on that outside feedback.

SPEAKER_00:

Aaron Powell And that really seems like the trap high achievers like Alina can fall into. They use their achievements, the credentials, the titles as the main way to feel good about themselves.

SPEAKER_01:

Aaron Powell Exactly. Their internal emotional state becomes dependent on like their market performance, how well their credentials are being recognized.

SPEAKER_00:

Aaron Powell And psychology today doesn't just see narcissism as an on-off switch, right?

SPEAKER_01:

Aaron Powell No, definitely not. Researchers like uh Krizan and Herlach, they really emphasize that it's a spectrum. Well, we all have some narcissistic traits to some degree. Trevor Burrus, Jr.

SPEAKER_00:

It's about how much they interfere with life.

SPEAKER_01:

Aaron Powell Precisely. It ranges from mild tendencies that might just make someone a bit annoying, all the way to severe personality disorders.

SPEAKER_00:

Aaron Powell And within that spectrum, there are different types, different flavors of it.

SPEAKER_01:

Aaron Powell Generally, we talk about two main prototypes, which helps explain why someone like Elena, who is clearly high functioning, can still show this fragility. Okay, what are those? Aaron Powell Well, first you've got the grandiose narcissist. This is the stereotype, right? Loud, obviously confident, maybe arrogant, constantly seeking attention. They wear their supposed superiority on their sleeve.

SPEAKER_00:

Easy to spot, usually.

SPEAKER_01:

Usually. But then there's the second type, which might be more relevant here, the vulnerable narcissist, sometimes called covert narcissism.

SPEAKER_00:

Vulnerable. How can someone with Elena's credentials be vulnerable? Everything about her CV screams competence.

SPEAKER_01:

Ah, but that's the whole point of the mask. The vulnerable narcissist is actually hiding a deep core insecurity. All that competence, the pride, sometimes even a kind of exaggerated humility, it's all a shield.

SPEAKER_00:

A shield for what?

SPEAKER_01:

For hypersensitivity. They feel slighted easily, they read criticism into neutral comments, they might not shout about how great they are, like the grandiose type.

SPEAKER_00:

But they secretly feel entitled to recognition.

SPEAKER_01:

Exactly. They feel the world should see their inherent specialness, and they use their achievements like Elena's degrees and fellowship as proof. Proof to themselves and proof to others that they deserve that recognition, even if they aren't demanding it loudly all the time.

SPEAKER_00:

So Elena saying, actually, I'm a senior research fellow.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Isn't just a boast, it's a defense.

SPEAKER_01:

It's a defense against the perceived shame or humiliation of being just Dr. Morgan. It's the vulnerability lashing out to protect itself.

SPEAKER_00:

That connects directly to what Dr. Romani emphasizes, right? That the root cause is this profound insecurity.

SPEAKER_01:

Absolutely. Dr. Romani nails it. The grandiosity, the credential flashing, the quick correction, she calls it a suit of armor built around unprocessed insecurity and importantly, shame.

SPEAKER_00:

Shame they can't face.

SPEAKER_01:

Right. So they're constantly fighting this internal battle. When someone ignores their title, it's not just a social slip-up. It feels like a direct hit, a crack in the armor.

SPEAKER_00:

And the only way to respond is to push back, assert dominance.

SPEAKER_01:

Instantly. To restabilize that fragile self, to push the shame back down, lash out, correct, put the other person down, whatever it takes to feel back on top.

SPEAKER_00:

Okay. That paints a clear picture of the mechanism, but it still begs the question: where does that deep insecurity come from, especially in people who seem so accomplished?

SPEAKER_01:

That's the crucial developmental question. And our sources offer a couple of, well, slightly different, but really complementary ideas from psychodynamic theory.

SPEAKER_00:

How does it start?

SPEAKER_01:

We can look at Heinz Cohut's view first. He focused on what we might be missing from childhood. Cohut believes some people just didn't get enough emotional mirroring or validation from their parents or main caregivers.

SPEAKER_00:

Mirroring, like reflecting back their feelings.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, and affirming their sense of self. The caregivers failed to be good self-objects, as he called them.

SPEAKER_00:

Okay, self-object. What does that mean? And how does lacking one lead to needing credentials later?

SPEAKER_01:

A self-object is basically someone, usually a parent early on, who helps you build and confirm your sense of who you are. They validate your feelings, your small achievements in a steady, unconditional way, if that's missing.

SPEAKER_00:

If the child feels unseen or maybe ignored emotionally.

SPEAKER_01:

Then they grow up with this fundamental gap, this deficit inside. Yeah. And as adults, they're constantly unconsciously trying to fill that void.

SPEAKER_00:

With external things.

SPEAKER_01:

With external praise, status, awards, or yes, specific titles, like senior research fellow at Oxford. The credential becomes the substitute for the missing validation from childhood. It's trying to patch up that broken internal structure.

SPEAKER_00:

Wow. So the job title is doing the emotional work a parent should have done. That's a lot to ask of a title.

SPEAKER_01:

It really is. Now, slightly different angle, you have Otto Kernberg. He focused more on internal conflict.

SPEAKER_00:

Okay. How did you see it?

SPEAKER_01:

Kernberg thought narcissism comes from this intense internal battle, a split between the perfect, idealized image, they show the world, the successful fellow, and all the negative feelings, the fear, the shame that they desperately hide.

SPEAKER_00:

Hide even from themselves sometimes.

SPEAKER_01:

Often, yes. It's a conflict between the shiny outside and the messy inside.

SPEAKER_00:

So cohoot is about trying to get something missing from the outside. Kernberg is about managing an internal conflict, but both seem to imply that this isn't something you're born with.

SPEAKER_01:

Definitely. The consensus is that narcissists, especially these patterns we're discussing, are made, not born. And the research points to two main pathways, development-wise.

SPEAKER_00:

Okay, what's the first one?

SPEAKER_01:

The first is often called the trauma or neglect pathway. This might start with a kid who's maybe biologically a bit more sensitive or had a difficult temperament.

SPEAKER_00:

Aaron Powell And then they run into a tough environment.

SPEAKER_01:

Exactly. An environment with chronic invalidation, constantly being told, stop crying, be more like your brother, that's not good enough. Or maybe there's a lack of a secure attachment, perhaps due to neglect, abuse, or just chaos.

SPEAKER_00:

Aaron Ross Powell That sounds like it would create a feeling of powerlessness.

SPEAKER_01:

Aaron Ross Powell A deep sense of powerlessness, yes.

SPEAKER_00:

That's okay.

SPEAKER_01:

And the feeling that their real self is somehow flawed or unacceptable. Shockwike and others talk about this leading to turning away from real connection.

SPEAKER_00:

Why turn away?

SPEAKER_01:

To protect themselves from more disappointment or rejection. They retreat into this kind of self-absorption, building up a sense of superiority internally, almost as a defense. And that superiority needs constant proof.

SPEAKER_00:

Proof-like credentials.

SPEAKER_01:

Proof-like credentials. Now, the second pathway is kind of the opposite, and maybe more famous, the overindulgence pathway.

SPEAKER_00:

Right. The spoiled child. How does being given too much lead to this defensive fragility? It seems counterintuitive.

SPEAKER_01:

It does. But think about it. This is the child who gets excessive praise, often for just existing, told constantly they're special, better than others, maybe even that rules don't apply to them.

SPEAKER_00:

That sounds like it builds entitlement.

SPEAKER_01:

Huge entitlement, yes. Research shows this inflated praise is a direct line to entitlement, a key precursor to narcissistic traits. But the critical failure here is what they don't learn.

SPEAKER_00:

What skills are missing?

SPEAKER_01:

They never really learn to sue themselves when things go wrong. They don't learn how to handle disappointment healthfully. And crucially, empathy often isn't modeled or expected.

SPEAKER_00:

So they grow up expecting the world to cater to their specialness.

SPEAKER_01:

Pretty much. And when the world inevitably doesn't, then someone gives the wrong introduction or they don't get the exact response they feel entitled to, they can't cope, it triggers this huge distress.

SPEAKER_00:

And the credential becomes what? A tool to demand that special treatment.

SPEAKER_01:

It becomes proof. Proof that they deserve the special treatment they expect. It's their evidence to wave at the world.

SPEAKER_00:

So when that evidence isn't acknowledged, like with Elena.

SPEAKER_01:

The whole system feels attacked. Which brings us right back to that narcissistic wound.

SPEAKER_00:

Let's zero in on that moment of the wound. Aponte calls it that. Others talk about a threat to self-esteem.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, and Dr. Fox adds a really useful concept here. Variable self-esteem. People with these traits don't have consistently high self-esteem despite appearances.

SPEAKER_00:

It goes up and down.

SPEAKER_01:

Wildly. They swing between feeling grandiose, superior, on top of the world, often fueled by their credentials or recent praise, and then suddenly crashing down into feeling inferior, insecure, or worthless.

SPEAKER_00:

So Elena walks into that meeting, probably feeling pretty good, riding high on her senior research fellow status.

SPEAKER_01:

Exactly. But that feeling is built on sand. Then she hits something she can't control, the simple introduction.

SPEAKER_00:

That's the trigger.

SPEAKER_01:

That's the trigger. The slight, the perceived criticism, the non-acceptance cue. Dr. Fox notes it can be really small, like not getting a text back they expected. It flips the switch.

SPEAKER_00:

And sends them sliding towards the insecurity pole.

SPEAKER_01:

Right. And that rapid slide, that gap between the high and the low, creates intense psychological pain. It's humiliating, terrifying.

SPEAKER_00:

So the correction, the actually I'm a senior research fellow.

SPEAKER_01:

Is an emergency break. It's the ego lashing out instantly to stop the fall, to push back against the shame, reassert the status, and climb back up to feeling dominant or superior again.

SPEAKER_00:

Wow. It's a really reactive state.

SPEAKER_01:

Highly reactive. And unfortunately, our modern world, especially online, seems almost designed to pour fuel on this fire.

SPEAKER_00:

How so? How does culture feed into this?

SPEAKER_01:

Well, think about what gets rewarded, especially on social media. Grapsis and colleagues connect this personality style directly to the chase for status and recognition.

SPEAKER_00:

LinkedIn profiles, Instagram feeds.

SPEAKER_01:

Exactly. Platforms are built around showcasing achievements, appearances, lifestyles. It's all about displaying the mask, constantly curating that successful image.

SPEAKER_00:

It's not enough to get the job. You have to post about getting the job.

SPEAKER_01:

Right. And the psychological research is clear. People chase this stuff, the likes, the followers, the public titles, because it provides a boost, a short-term hit of conditional confidence.

SPEAKER_00:

But it doesn't last.

SPEAKER_01:

Nope. Like any external fix, the high fades fast, which creates this vicious cycle. You need another hit. So you had to keep posting, keep bragging, keep achieving publicly, or, like Elena, jump in immediately to correct someone.

SPEAKER_00:

Just to get that validation again, to feel okay.

SPEAKER_01:

Just to keep the fragile self propped up.

SPEAKER_00:

Her correction wasn't just about accuracy. It was like needing a quick injection of status to feel stable again.

SPEAKER_01:

This is probably a good moment to just quickly say, uh, we really hope you're finding this deep dive valuable. We'd hate for you to miss future ones.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, definitely.

SPEAKER_01:

So if you haven't already, please do subscribe, maybe give a thumbs up if you're liking it, and uh hit that notifications bell. Our episodes can be a bit sporadic because, well, our day jobs in education keep us pretty busy.

SPEAKER_00:

They definitely do. But we love doing these when we can. Okay, so back to it. That idea of the self-fueling loop needing constant hits of validation that really sets up the next piece. What does this do to relationships? Aaron Powell Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

This is where it gets, frankly, quite damaging. When someone is that reliant on external validation, their relationships tend to become, well, strategic.

SPEAKER_00:

Instrumental.

SPEAKER_01:

Instrumental. Meaning they use people.

SPEAKER_00:

Essentially, yes. We can look at this through the lens of the alternative DSM V model for personality disorders, the AMPD. It highlights two big problems here.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay, what's the first?

SPEAKER_00:

First is identity impairment. We've kind of touched on this. It's needing that excessive reference to others for self-definition and self-esteem regulation.

SPEAKER_01:

Aaron Powell So they literally need other people to tell them who they are or at least confirm their desired image.

SPEAKER_00:

Right. Their sense of self is outsourced, which leads directly to the second problem: intimacy impairment.

SPEAKER_01:

Meaning they can't get close to people.

SPEAKER_00:

Or rather, the relationships they do form are often quite superficial. They exist primarily, sometimes solely, to serve self-esteem regulation for the person with narcissistic traits. So the other person isn't valued for themselves.

SPEAKER_01:

Not really. They become, in Kohut's terms, again, a self-object, not a whole person, but a tool. Their value depends entirely on how well they perform the function of reflecting back the narcissist's desired image or boosting their ego.

SPEAKER_00:

Just have to hold up the mirror just right.

SPEAKER_01:

Exactly. And if they fail, if they stop serving that function, like the colleague who just said Dr.

SPEAKER_00:

Morgan.

SPEAKER_01:

Precisely. He failed in his function, affirming her full status. And Shawquick and colleagues describe what happens then. The other person's value drops to zero. They get devalued as losers and discarded.

SPEAKER_00:

Wow. Disparted just for not using the full title.

SPEAKER_01:

It sounds extreme, but that's the internal mechanism. The intense correction Elena gave wasn't just about facts. It was likely also a subconscious move to devalue the person who failed her, putting yourself back in the superior position.

SPEAKER_00:

It's a harsh way to navigate the world, protecting the self by basically objectifying others.

SPEAKER_01:

It is. It sacrifices genuine connection for this very fragile self-protection.

SPEAKER_00:

So if this is the core issue, this fragility, this dependence, how does someone break free? If maybe someone listening recognizes that small sting in themselves, how do they move towards real self-respect?

SPEAKER_01:

It's a journey, for sure. MA APONTE offered some really practical starting points. And the absolute first step, maybe the hardest, is just awareness.

SPEAKER_00:

Noticing the feeling.

SPEAKER_01:

Noticing the urge, that feeling Elena had, that flash of indignation or defensiveness when your status feels ignored. You have to catch it in the moment. Pause. Recognize. Okay, my ego is trying to defend something fragile here.

SPEAKER_00:

Instead of just reacting, correcting, puffing up.

SPEAKER_01:

You observe it. And then Aponte gives us this incredibly powerful self-reflection question. You have to ask yourself honestly, would I still believe in my value if no one else noticed? Oof, that's a tough one. It really is. Yeah. Because it cuts right to the heart of conditional self-worth. If the honest answer is no or I'm not sure, then you know where the work needs to happen.

SPEAKER_00:

Okay, so awareness, then self-questioning. But for someone who's built their whole identity around achievements, how do they actually separate their worth from, say, their job title? It seems deeply tangled.

SPEAKER_01:

It is tangled. And a ponte suggests cultivating something called logical humility.

SPEAKER_00:

Logical humility. What's that?

SPEAKER_01:

It's basically the understanding, the conviction that your ideas, your contributions, your insights, they have to stand on their own. They don't need the fancy title bolted on to have value.

SPEAKER_00:

So if I need to say, as a senior research fellow, before people will listen, the problem isn't them, it's my own belief.

SPEAKER_01:

It suggests a lack of belief in the intrinsic authority of your knowledge or your perspective. Logical humility means trusting that what you know is valuable regardless of the label attached. You have to be willing to let your work speak for itself without the credential as a crutch.

SPEAKER_00:

Shifting the focus from the status of the speaker to the substance of what's being said.

SPEAKER_01:

Exactly. Because confidence that's built from the inside, genuine, unconditional self-worth that's durable. It doesn't disappear if someone forgets your title or you don't get the corner office.

SPEAKER_00:

It's not dependent on the market.

SPEAKER_01:

Right. And when you manage to separate your inherent value as a person from your list of accomplishments, that's when you start building real, lasting self-respect. The credentials that just become tools you use, not masks you hide behind.

SPEAKER_00:

This has been, wow, such a detailed look at this whole mask of credentials idea. Starting with that tiny sting Alina felt and unpacking layers of psychology.

SPEAKER_01:

It really shows how that need to display the mask, flash of the title, it's usually a protective shell around a vulnerable core, often rooted in those early experiences of insecurity or shame.

SPEAKER_00:

And the way out isn't necessarily more achievement.

SPEAKER_01:

No. It's about building that internal foundation, that unconditional self-worth that doesn't need constant outside proof.

SPEAKER_00:

Now, before we wrap up, you mentioned vulnerability earlier. And the mask of credentials isn't the only mask people wear, is it?

SPEAKER_01:

No, absolutely not. We focus a lot on the high status type, the Elena example. But the vulnerable narcissist, remember, can also express their entitlement covertly. And sometimes that comes through suffering.

SPEAKER_00:

Suffering. How does that work?

SPEAKER_01:

Dr. Fox talks about this idea of grandiose suffering. Have you ever met someone who seems to constantly emphasize how uniquely terrible their experiences are, how much they've sacrificed, how deep their pain is, in a way that implies no one else could possibly understand.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. It's like their suffering makes them special.

SPEAKER_01:

Exactly. It's another form of asserting superiority, but through hardship instead of success. Sholquick and others mention masochistic narcissism, where there's almost a secret pride, a hidden grandiosity in being the one who endures the most.

SPEAKER_00:

So instead of I'm special because I'm a fellow at Oxford, it's I'm special because my burden is uniquely heavy.

SPEAKER_01:

Precisely. It's still about being set apart, more significant, more sensitive, just using a different currency. It's a covert way to claim superiority.

SPEAKER_00:

That is a really provocative thought to end on. It makes you, the listener, maybe reconsider people who seem excessively humble or who constantly foreground their struggles.

SPEAKER_01:

Are they genuinely sharing, or is there an element of covertly asserting specialness, a kind of hidden entitlement through victimhood?

SPEAKER_00:

It definitely challenges us to look beyond the surface, whether the mask is made of gold or uh maybe sackcloth.

SPEAKER_01:

The key check remains. Is there a sense of worth internal and unconditional, or does it rely on some external validation, whether through success or suffering?

SPEAKER_00:

A lot to think about there. Okay, before we sign off, just a final reminder for you.

SPEAKER_01:

Go check out the website.

SPEAKER_00:

Yes, please head to our website. The link is in the description below. You can sign up for our free ebook there and also get updates on various products and services we're planning for members down the line.

SPEAKER_01:

Thanks so much for tuning in and thinking along with us today.

SPEAKER_00:

Thank you for listening to this Deep Drive in Thinking2th podcast.

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M.A.Aponte

Host
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Dr. Elias Quinn

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Lyra Morgan

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