Josh Detar: [00:00:00] All right. Welcome to another episode of the digital banking podcast. I'm your host, Joshua Detar. And today I am really excited to have Mike Tierney on the show. Mike, thanks so much for joining me today.
[00:00:41] Mike Tierney: [00:00:41] Well, I'm happy to be here, Josh.
[00:00:43] Josh Detar: [00:00:43] Mike, I think especially given today and where you are calling in from. I'd love to have you give our audience a little bit of background on yourself.
[00:00:52] Can you tell us a little bit about your past experience and what day in your life looks like right now?
[00:00:57] Mike Tierney: [00:00:57] Yeah, well, I'm happy to be here, like I said and I do have weird days lately because I'm actually living in the Netherlands but I am a Portland person I've been in banking for over 20 years. And I've been in the credit union industry for about 12 of those. But for the past couple of years, I've been on my own like consulting with credit unions.
[00:01:17] And, also just mainly being a stay-at-home dad. My wife took a job opportunity with a startup and she's been working there for a couple of years. And then recently late this summer, she got a great job opportunity to move over to Europe and had their sales division in Europe and the middle East and Asia.
[00:01:34] And so I and my daughter came along for the fun. And so we're settling in here and we live right near the Hague not far from Amsterdam and we're really enjoying the change and the adjustment period.
[00:01:45] Josh Detar: [00:01:45] The adjustment, right? I mean, what it's 8:30 in the morning for me and it's 5:30 for you.
[00:01:51] Mike Tierney: [00:01:51] Yep. 5:30 in the evening, got to get used to that. And we just had the daylight savings time for some reason. Cause you're up in the US like to do things differently. We were one week apart from that. So just for that one week, I was one hour closer to all my friends and family back in Oregon.
[00:02:08] Josh Detar: [00:02:08] That's funny.
[00:02:09] Mike Tierney: [00:02:09] Yeah we had daylight savings time one week before you guys did.
[00:02:12] Josh Detar: [00:02:12] You have one week before the US
[00:02:14] All right. So Mike, tell us a little bit about just your first year over there. And what major differences you've seen between how you do your community banking in Europe versus here in the US.
[00:02:29]Mike Tierney: [00:02:29] Yeah, well, my field back in Oregon I was involved a lot in financial industry training and I'm really trying to make those connections here so I can continue that work. The credit union community here in Netherlands is pretty strong, same with Germany, right next door. And so first thing I have to do is learn the language.
[00:02:44] It's a very difficult language so I'm taking courses for that. But then as I get involved in that, I hope to get involved in the financial literacy stuff that I was doing back in Oregon and Washington. And that's involving, going to schools, talking to kids about what credit is and what savings is all about and all that kind of stuff.
[00:02:59] So, you're right. I mean, I really am trying to get immersed in what the differences is in banking here versus in the U S so that when I am involved in the literacy stuff here, I got to make sure I know what I'm talking about and how it's done here. The major thing I've found is the way the Dutch people viewed debt versus how we do in the US is it's remarkable it's night and day.
[00:03:19] And the analogy I can bring up is like, you know, in cholesterol, there's good cholesterol and bad cholesterol. They are okay with mortgage debt, they were okay with education debt for school. But they're not into consumer debt, at all. And so like, there are credit cards available, like when Dutch people travel they want to be able to get hotels.
[00:03:37] They want to be able to get their rental cars but they don't really use their they're in their wallet, locked away unless those times occur. Other than that, it's all debit card. And in fact, if you travel to Amsterdam or anywhere else in the Netherlands go to restaurants and stores, you'll find that they don't even accept credit cards like us credit cards.
[00:03:54] Josh Detar: [00:03:54] Oh wow.
[00:03:55] Mike Tierney: [00:03:55] So and it's a rude awakening for a lot of travelers. They have to run to the nearest ATM and get some cash because their debit cards aren't gonna work. Cause they're from the US bank and their credit cards aren't going to work because they're not accepted. And so they are running for their nearest ATM and they're going to use cash.
[00:04:07] And then when you live here, you have to get your BSN which is your social security number. And then you're allowed to go to a bank and get your debit card. And then once you've got that's what you're using for your, all of your purchases. There's also no checks here, no checks, you know, the U S has been saying no checks for years, but they're still around, right?
[00:04:25] Josh Detar: [00:04:25] Yeah, I was so, you know, millions upon millions of checks.
[00:04:28] Mike Tierney: [00:04:28] Yeah, like our kids, their grandma's still sends me a check for their birthday, they're around even though they were supposed to go away, but here they really are gone, no checks at all. So what they do is if you make a purchase online, let's say I go onto the equivalent of Amazon is called bol bol.com.
[00:04:44] My daughter had an event to go to for school. So it was like a kind of a prom thing or something. So she got some special shoes sent to her through bol.com. So what happens is you go on there, you order it and then how do you pay, you're going to pay with your debit card and then they'll send you like you know, those square code things, with the computer image on it.
[00:05:02] It's like a square, a QR code I think it's called. So you just, you use the phone, you logged into your app for your bank and you just put it on your computer screen. And all of a sudden, like within that second, you can see it removed through bank account and go to that purchase. It's just so simple and seamless and it's done.
[00:05:18] If you buy something at a store you're using your debit card a point of sale and anything online, you're going to use that QR code situation. And regardless of what bank you use there's a platform called the ideal platform. And so everyone uses that creates that like QR code that you get sent. It's pretty amazing and you really get proud of not using your credit card and you're paying for what you owe. And I asked this question about like, so what if you're just out of college and you don't have a lot of money and you have to get a couch for your first apartment. And so what happens is banks do have these small dollar loan like products available for that sort of stuff.
[00:05:52] So. they'd really don't like getting involved in like a revolving that situation. and so, I just found that really interesting.
[00:06:00] Josh Detar: [00:06:00] So how does the person to person payment network work?
[00:06:04] Mike Tierney: [00:06:04] So what happens is you share your bank account. It sounds really weird, we don't really do that, right? But you go into your app. So even if we use different banks, so let's say I use ABN, you use ING we're here in the Netherlands. We had lunch together because somehow COVID restrictions are over, COVID is over so we're out for dinner or lunch.
[00:06:21] Josh Detar: [00:06:21] Yeah. Yeah. Let's just ignore that whole global pandemic thing.
[00:06:24] Mike Tierney: [00:06:24] So we're out to lunch and then I'm going to pick up the tab you're going to send me the amount. And so you're going to pull up your phone app. And I'm just going to say, yeah, my account number is one, two, three, four. And ABN is my account so I'll say ABN one, two, three, four and then boom, you're going to type that in.
[00:06:40] And it transfers immediately. So all the banks have this relationship in their apps where that's their PDP, it's all set. So you have to have a bank account to get it done but other than that, it's already ingrained in their systems. So there's no second tier third party or whatever P to product.
[00:06:55] Josh Detar: [00:06:55] What is the mechanism that actually moves the money from institution to institution.
[00:06:59] Mike Tierney: [00:06:59] It's this ideal platform that I told you about? I think it might be an acronym or something I'm not familiar with what it is, but it's something that is a payment platform that all of the banks have signed into. I think it might even be part of the Dutch national bank platform that created it. A lot of stuff is centralized here from a banking and billing perspective utilities. Cause that's a relatively smaller country. There's like 17 million people here. And, so it's much easier to get stuff done compared to the US with 330 million. So, yeah, it's this ideal platform that I spoke about where it just makes it super easy.
[00:07:30] Like my daughter's getting tennis lessons. So I talked to the coach, Hey, how do I pay you? And he's like, yeah, no problem. And he pulled out his phone and he told me, just pull up your app and then submit to this number. I did, Boom done.
[00:07:41] Josh Detar: [00:07:41] Interesting. So, I mean, this is you know, before your time over there but I curious how that worked before everyone had smartphones.
[00:07:49]Mike Tierney: [00:07:49] That's a good question I think they did have checks back then, you know, they graduated... yeah. Yeah.
[00:07:53] Josh Detar: [00:07:53] Just used paper checks. Yeah, that'd be interesting. I'd have to go back and look and see. I'm curious when paper checks just became not a thing anymore.
[00:08:01]Mike Tierney: [00:08:01] Yeah. I mean, I asked the same question about what about the folks out there that were still happy with their old timey stuff like checks and lay lines, they're still out there. What would they do? And I think it was just easier to move the public to where they wanted them to go because the government agreed about it.
[00:08:18] The banks all agreed and they had a robust education program and they made it easy. So I wish I had been around to see that happen. I'm sure it wasn't always seamless but it happened a few years ago. So now that I'm
[00:08:30] Josh Detar: [00:08:30] But they're here now.
[00:08:30] Mike Tierney: [00:08:30] Yeah they're here now. And so I don't know, except that it's, that's the way it's just done.
[00:08:35] Josh Detar: [00:08:35] You know that is an interesting point, because I think a lot of times, especially here in the U S right, we talk about and especially from a credit union perspective, sometimes it's our blessing and our curse, right? It's all about member experience. We would never want to put members through a painful experience or make them feel like they went backwards for any reason or take away their ability to do something the way that they wanted to.
[00:08:56] Right. I mean, how many times do we talk about, you know, meeting members where they are, as opposed to forcing them to meet us where we are? So the thought of just saying, Oh, Hey, by the way, we're just not going to allow checks anymore. That's done. We're not doing that. I mean,
[00:09:10] Mike Tierney: [00:09:10] I have a feeling, it was sort of a phased thing. And, you know, it's just, since they're smaller, I think they're just more nimble and there's probably, I don't know if it's, more practicing together and less competition or less aggressive pushback when you're told to do something like the US is pretty famous for, no way I'm not doing that. Don't tell me what to do. And I don't know if that's the same around here necessarily. I just don't know.
[00:09:33] Josh Detar: [00:09:33] Yeah, that's interesting. Now I feel like after this, I'm going to go and do a ton of research on banking in the Netherlands. Apparently. You know, it's funny I was thinking about this as we were getting ready for today's episode. I've actually learned a lot about this industry from you specifically.
[00:09:50] you know, I've known you for a few years now and back in your, Unitas days, quick shout out to Portland credit union.
[00:09:57] Mike Tierney: [00:09:57] Yup. I still bank there.
[00:09:59] Josh Detar: [00:09:59] Yeah.
[00:10:00] And one of the things that you had talked to me about was just how credit unions actually initiated not in the us.
[00:10:06] Mike Tierney: [00:10:06] Yeah, Right,
[00:10:07] Josh Detar: [00:10:07] So I don't know how many people actually know that story.
[00:10:10] I think that would be worthwhile sharing, especially since we're talking about the shift between how Europe handles banking and the US handles it.
[00:10:17] Mike Tierney: [00:10:17] Yeah, the way I learned about this through the filing organization which they were among the leaders of credit unions in the US when it first came about in the, I guess, early 19 hundreds or something in the Northeastern area but like in the 18 hundreds, I think it was just a bunch of farmers in Germany that were not getting loans from the big banks in Berlin.
[00:10:36] Because the big banks were like, look, the weather's been weird. Your yields have not been what you've told me they were going to be for the past couple of years. And I just, I don't feel comfortable lending you the money that we used to lend you. And that happened for a few years in a row or a few years within a ten-year period, it happened enough where the bank started to shut them down.
[00:10:52] So they got together, all these farmers and they just pulled their money, loaned money to each other, and they formed this co-op, which became the model of credit unions going forward. And it's just a really cool story. And then it's really interesting to think that now here I am like right next door to Germany where it all started.
[00:11:09] As you know, we'll tell the audience, I'm a huge credit union advocate and I've worked in the credit union feel for quite awhile. I've just bought into it. I just think it's... I was gonna say, I think advocate is putting it delicately.
[00:11:20] I'm an evangelist. All right. But yeah, I just really, I liked the idea of members being involved, members being owners, members having a stake, and all the credit union staff being, also part of the team and member owners themselves. It's just, it creates this team atmosphere and when it comes to money and finances, which is delicate and hard and stressful at times, it's good to have that feeling where you've got your, you got that support behind you. You think you're dealing with somebody that's part of your family that you trust. And I think that's an element of baking that I really enjoy. and my, coming to credit unions came at a certain time in my career and my life and what was going on in the world because it happened in 2008 during the crisis.
[00:11:59] The first financial crisis that we have recently. and so I was working for a big bank, which I won't name. And, I was working in the bankruptcy and probate area. There was collections on my team going on and so very difficult time of people's lives. They either had a death in the family.
[00:12:15] They were filed bankruptcy. It was just poor. Part of my team also just straight up people that were behind in their checking account. And so with the crisis going on, it was very hard for the team. And for everybody out there dealing with calls from real people, having real problems in the middle of this financial crisis.
[00:12:31] And so anyway, this thing happened where, have you ever heard of the thing where a bank can basically take money out of your account if it's withdrawn? Yeah. So there's a term for it which I forgot what the term is called, but anyway, they can basically take money out. So, but if you're dealing with somebody that I definitely family and somebody had made a promise to pay on an account to bring it up to date, that should be entered in the system.
[00:12:53] You've had an agreement. And so if they have a payment come in, like they get paid, in between the time they made that promise and the time they said that money was going to come in, that money should not be forcefully removed by the bank because you've had a promise agreement on it, right? Anyway, to make a long story short.
[00:13:08] I noticed from hearing, talking to customers, getting elevated calls to my desk, Hey, they know I made a promise to pay on this. My mother had passed away. And I said I was going to pay on the 15th. Money came out on the 10th. Why'd you guys take it out? Now I miss my mortgage payment or whatever it was, right? So I brought this to the leaders in my sites where I worked and then they brought up to the corporate headquarters in another big city. And I was told that it was a problem that they're going to fix. I later learned that it was just, that's how they did it. They did it purposely and I just felt very uncomfortable with that.
[00:13:36] And so I started seeking another job and that's when someone on my team ended up going to a credit union and called me and said, Hey, you know, they're looking for a manager in this particular area and so forth. Anyway, I took her advice, made a call and the rest is history. I got that job at a local credit union in Portland. And it just, my life felt so much better because I felt like I was working against good people up there trying to make a living instead of for them. And not that all big banks are bad and not that every experienced I had at my old job was bad but it was just the right time for me to move and that's why I'm so passionate about credit unions.
[00:14:09] Josh Detar: [00:14:09] That makes a lot of sense. So many times you hear people talk about how they came into the credit union industry and they're all human stories. They're all deeply real about some major impact. And I think it has a lot to do with the fact that credit unions are for members, by members and they're not for-profit.
[00:14:28] And, you know, it's interesting our CEO says all the time that he wishes every industry had a nonprofit competitor like banking does. Because it radically reshapes the landscape.
[00:14:39] Mike Tierney: [00:14:39] Right. Yep. So what is the landscape of credit unions like there in the Netherlands?
[00:14:44] Well, I mean, it's pretty similar but I will say like the big banks out here are more dominant or at least they are in my particular area where I live and so really seems like there's only three or four banks in my particular area. So I'm starting to learn about that.
[00:14:59] live in is an area that's not far from where I live and it's famous for its universities. And supposedly there's a credit union, like group that's there that I'm looking into to see if I can get some more information. But currently the bank we use is not a credit union.
[00:15:13] Josh Detar: [00:15:13] How does that feel? And I'm just, So is that credit union that you were talking about is that run by the students? Just because you see a lot younger demographic.
[00:15:25] Mike Tierney: [00:15:25] No, it's not, I think it's just because it's a cluster of universities. And so I guess maybe to be the young demographic type thing, perhaps. But funny you say that about, student run. Cause I think, is it one of your clients, a student run credit union?
[00:15:39] Josh Detar: [00:15:39] Yeah. George Washington university, the students there have a credit union initiative.
[00:15:44] Mike Tierney: [00:15:44] Yeah. Didn't it roll out in November, went live or something or?
[00:15:48] Josh Detar: [00:15:48] No, not quite. So they are in the final stages of getting approval from the NCUA to issue a charter number. So they're basically ready once they have their charter number issued. The hope is to see that I think sometime in early January, Sahil Christian. Sorry. If I quoted that wrong, that's what I have in the back of my head, but yeah, just a phenomenal, phenomenal group of people starting that up.
[00:16:12] You can tell that the passion is there, the heart's in the right place and it's been really amazing to just watch them go through the challenges not only from a technology standpoint that we get to see. But also just hearing about the challenges that they face and the opportunities that they have. You know, coming in as a Denovo institution in 2020, the regulations, the compliance elements, it's just been fascinating to see and their work ethic is through the roof. So. Yeah. If you had an opportunity to talk to them.
[00:16:45] Mike Tierney: [00:16:45] No, I haven't, but I read I was working with our the organization I worked with back in Oregon was, for the financial literacy program was called financial beginnings. And so they partnered with credit unions mostly and also banks as to agree to go out to schools.
[00:16:58] Now they're doing a lot of it online, obviously but like to go to schools and then teach the kids, different grade levels, different curriculum about financial literacy and credit and banking and stuff like that. But a couple of the credit unions that I've spoken with during this time, actual have student run credit unions. There's a credit union called the comic credit union out of Ohio. Have you ever heard of them?
[00:17:19] Josh Detar: [00:17:19] Okay.
[00:17:19] Mike Tierney: [00:17:19] They have several different student run credit unions where an atomic employee is there as well but the kids are running these things. And so the kids are learning how to save, they're learning about membership application, they're learning about saving and spending and stuff like that.
[00:17:35] And they've got, a representative from the credit union out there at that site. And the site's literally at the school.
[00:17:42] Josh Detar: [00:17:42] Yeah. I remember reading something about that now.
[00:17:44] Mike Tierney: [00:17:44] Yeah. And Suncoast and Florida also same things on coastguard. We'll also have several different there in like 26 different school systems and eight different counties. They have these programs and it's to me, you've got to find a way as a credit union to go to that younger generation and carry it through.
[00:18:00] I think membership among age groups and credit unions that goes down as the age group goes down. So it might be one out of four if you're talking about an adult who's over 30. Where it's less than that we're not a five around a six, if you're talking about a 25 or under and so forth.
[00:18:15] So there's gotta be ways to get these folks more involved and fired up about the deans. And so this is one way where you've got a credit union literally at your school, you've got savings programs and you're learning about this stuff. And then once you do go out into the world, graduate high school, get a job or go to college.
[00:18:31] You've got, a financial institution that you feel friendly with and warm about and confident in and that you trust. And so it's just a great opportunity that it seems like weird to have kids running this thing, especially elementary school age, but these credit unions are so dedicated with the people that have live like embedded in there that, it's being watched over and it's really cool opportunity.
[00:18:52]Josh Detar: [00:18:52] I mean, there's no better way than on the job training.
[00:18:54] Mike Tierney: [00:18:54] Right. Like, have you ever heard of BizTown in Oregon? Like where the kids go to this, it's like a giant area where you've got a Fred Meyer set up. You've got a bank. It's like a warehouse with these little cutouts. Like it's almost like a Hollywood set. It's like a town and it's all inside in this warehouse environment and you've got your bank and you've got your Fred Meyer and you've got your mayor's office.
[00:19:14] And so the kids go there and they all have a role and they spend a day there doing what they would do. They all have different jobs, you know, there's a Comcast person that helps you set up your cable and your computer anyway.
[00:19:24] Josh Detar: [00:19:24] So he shows up four hours late.
[00:19:27] Mike Tierney: [00:19:27] No, I think in this environment, everyone's on time. But like, so, they've got this program there and it helps the kids really learn what it's like to be in the real world.
[00:19:36] And that's what reminded me of these programs here with this. It's a real time set up. That's ongoing these credit unions at school. So it's like BizTown, but it's daily and it's interesting I like the way they do it.
[00:19:49]Josh Detar: [00:19:49] Well, I know this is one of the things that you and I probably talk about more than anything is youth financial literacy. I'm one of those prime examples that I wish somebody had taken me under their wing earlier. And given me some of the lessons that I learned later in life and how different things may have been.
[00:20:06] Right? And you just, you see a lot of that today of, you know, kids not getting the education that they need around managing their finances and understanding instruments of debt and understanding their credit score and being able to set them up for success early has a really big impact on how they choose to manage their finances going forward.
[00:20:30] And I think especially in the day and age where we live, right? We were talking about this before the show. And then a little bit on just how do you person to person pay people, you know, here in America, you ask a kid that and their answer is going to be one thing, right? Venmo.
[00:20:46] Mike Tierney: [00:20:46] Yeap. Absolutely.
[00:20:46] Josh Detar: [00:20:46] It's now a descriptive word for moving money from point a to point B. It's not a company to them.
[00:20:51] Mike Tierney: [00:20:51] Yeah. Yeap.
[00:20:51]Josh Detar: [00:20:51] It's a part of their lifestyle. And so if Venmo comes to them when they're now 18, 19 and says, Hey, why don't you just keep all of your money with us? We'll give you a Venmo debit card everything runs through Venmo. Makes a lot of sense to them, right? Is Venmo looking out for their best interests? I don't think so, but that's maybe a story for another day. So how do we get those kids? One, the education that they need early on but two, introduce them to a system that actually does care about their true success in life, right? And I think the thing that you and I have talked about, especially for being Portlanders and you know, we have a major employer in the Portland area that little shoe company, Nike.
[00:21:31] And they've always talked about how capture kids. Is if you capture the kids then the kid gets super excited and indoctrinated into their brand. They have their parents purchase those items for them. And then the parent probably buys things for themselves as well. And then you've got a kid who grows up to turn into the parent that takes their kid shopping at Nike.
[00:21:49] Right? So how do we get kids introduced to credit unions earlier? And what are the different things that you have done to help with that?
[00:21:58]Mike Tierney: [00:21:58] Well, I think you put it on the head as far as you mentioned, first thing, how do you educate them? So they learn about the tools because it's complicated. And like anything else that's complicated, it sometimes it can be dangerous, like using heavy equipment or major tools. If you don't use it appropriately, it can hurt you.
[00:22:14] And same with banking products. If you're not using your checking account correctly and you're with an institution that can be a little predatory about that. That can really set you back and just the whole idea of a credit score, how if you're not using your products safely and correctly then that can bring your credit score down and that can affect you for years to come and that can affect your ear low rates in the future and all that stuff.
[00:22:35] So it can really have some ramifications. So if you can tie in the education part of it with the introduction to the financial institution, part of it, you're doing both at the same time. So, like think of these kids that are going to this student run credit union in Ohio or Florida. And I'm sure there's a few other credit unions out there that have these type of programs. You've got their buy-in while you're teaching them.
[00:22:57] And they kind of go hand in hand. I think, you know, like a lot of times credit unions are sometimes they'll spend a lot of time on the big ideal stuff like not for profit and people first, and those are high ideals that should be shouted from the rooftops. But it seems like also the credit unions should be who they are and then go out there and show people that like what your identity is.
[00:23:19] So just as an example, like a small thing, Unitas, would always participate when the Christmas tree is delivered to pioneer square. It's a giant tree comes in two different trucks in two pieces, maybe even more, I think two. And they're on these big tractor trailers that rolled down right past the Unitas main branch.
[00:23:36] And so Unitas will commend people that work downtown and people come from the suburbs to see it being set up every year, right? Maybe not this year, but you know what I mean? So, what does a good credit union do that's part of that anyway because if the trucks go right by the front door of the credit union is get out there, hand out some donuts and hot chocolate stuff like that.
[00:23:54] And just be part of that. Anything you can do to introduce yourself to the community in a fun way not a I'm selling you that we're not provocative institution that's going to take care of you. Just get out there, be there and show that you're want to help and that you're want to have some fun and just be part of something that's fun.
[00:24:10] So, everything from that being a small thing, like a random act of kindness, all the way up to embedding yourself into a school being committed. And everything in between just all the time being who you are. And then the other stuff about we don't have any board members and, what we do have board members, but they're not paid.
[00:24:28] And we don't have any shareholders. So all the profits go back into the membership in the form of savings rates being high and low and rates being low, all that stuff that can come in naturally rather than being yelled too quickly. And if you can show that you can help people with their kitchen table issues, and do it in a safe trustful way.
[00:24:45] It's that balancing act of the heightened mighty credit union stuff which is important and a differentiator to the what can you do for me actually and my family. We're in this situation can you help?
[00:24:55] Josh Detar: [00:24:55] Yeah. well I had, Amber Hersin, the CEO of CU prodigy.
[00:25:00] Yeah. Yeah.
[00:25:02] Yeah, correct. On for episode two. And we talked a lot about that. How did technology providers play a role in helping credit unions to even be more committed to their communities, right? Because a lot of times technology feels really cold, right?
[00:25:17] It actually takes the human element out of it. And so, one, how do we build technology that doesn't do that, right? That actually connects people and creates a stronger sense of community. But also, you know, we look at okay, if technology comes in, is it replacing human warm bodies at the credit union, right?
[00:25:35] If we do a kiosk line, do we just let go all the tellers? And, you know, Amber and I are huge proponents of absolutely not. That's when we doubled down and now we've got these elements of technology that are super cost effective at doing the transactional stuff.
[00:25:50] Mike Tierney: [00:25:50] Yeah, you can go down.
[00:25:51] Josh Detar: [00:25:51] It's not that you just, I don't do to be a financial institution.
[00:25:54] And then you take those people, those amazing differentiators that they are as humans and you've put them in your community and then you do things like placing them into elementary schools and you have them out and about in the community. And I think that's one of the things that we really need to continue to keep our eye on as we add technology in is just how much just being a part of your community is an important aspect of credit unions too.
[00:26:18]Mike Tierney: [00:26:18] Yeah. That's exactly right. I think you're right. Cause like, if you can find a way to, like, you don't want to be someone you're not. So if it doesn't really fit for you to go to like a particular thing in your community, that doesn't fit who you are, that's one thing. But if you can get out there and be yourself, like, especially in difficult times, like credit union membership went way up after 2008.
[00:26:38] Like, move your money movement. That was really popular. And I would expect that we'll see the same thing with this current crisis that we're in, where credit unions are becoming more involved in the community than the normal, even because people need help and credit unions are out there doing it.
[00:26:53] And so if they can find a way to get involved and just be there, be present helping people. Diaper drives, you know, helping out with scholarships, you know, just stuff like that, where they're out there and present, because the technology that should be freeing up people not only to get out there in the community, but also to have deeper conversations with their members when the time is right.
[00:27:14] When the member is not just looking for a quick transaction issue with an online product to get something done or feature to get something moved or transferred or when they do want to have that touch point, that's when your staff can be ready, knowledgeable to help with a roadmap situation or a life situation that's changed and, you know, the resources can be more deployed in deeper, more meaningful stuff.
[00:27:36]Josh Detar: [00:27:36] Yeah. And there's one technology element that I know you're also pretty passionate about that actually kind of rounds up all the things that we've talked about thus far into a technology element. That's personal financial management tools.
[00:27:47]Mike Tierney: [00:27:47] Yeah, I'm very passionate about that. I have a love hate relationship with it because. Yeah, I like it. And I know even when I was introduced to these tools, like they've been around forever, by the way, it's not nothing new, like Quicken and stuff, but like, they really started to take off, like in the 2009 timeframe where it was interesting and new to have a way to not only log into your own primary financial institution, but also bring a whole bunch of your other stuff in. Like aggregate your accounts from different credit card companies and stuff. And so seeing. All your transactions in one spot. Whether you had an Alaska airlines credit card to get the miles or you had like a hotel card if you're traveling a lot which we forgot about what is that all about anymore. But back in the day, you know, if you're traveling a lot for work maybe you have a hotel card an airlines card, plus you have your primary bank card for your debit. Something like that. All of the transactions can be together at once.
[00:28:39] You can look at them, tabulate them, have them automatically put into some sort of a pie chart, so you can study your spending that's really helpful but a lot of times it involved a lot of heavy lifting from a member, especially at the setup,
[00:28:51] Josh Detar: [00:28:51] Yeah.
[00:28:52] Mike Tierney: [00:28:52] Making sure that your transactions were tagged correctly, making sure that you were setting up your goals or just inputting all of your passwords to your different accounts that you're aggregating. So, it can be really helpful, but I think it, I'm looking forward to watching the industry grow and get better technology-wise so that it's much more simple for the user.
[00:29:10] And also as technology advances, like we were talking about with people being able to do extra stuff. Well, nowadays with AI, they should be able to they, and I think they are like, there's a couple folks in the industry that are better than others where they are looking at your spending and able to give you intelligent tidbits on a regular basis about like just something simple, like, Hey, did you know that you have two Netflix accounts? What is that all about? Or did you sign up for two by mistake? Or do you want to have that, you know, the club with all these online memberships sometimes, you know, maybe I'll sign up for something. And my wife does, and we're both of us are spending six 99 a month for something and we only need it one time.
[00:29:46] So it's that sort of stuff where the intelligent design can come in and help out and remind the member and the member doesn't have to like, have you seen the industry recently getting better as far as like, helping out where you're like, if you have to change your password on your Alaska airlines card and it's aggregated, does that it used to maybe stop its ability from getting into your account.
[00:30:06] Like you'd have to go in and change the password via your financial institution. So that kind of headache stuff where all of a sudden one credit card would stop giving transactions cause there was a problem between the backend.
[00:30:16]Josh Detar: [00:30:16] There's definitely been some improvements in that. And I think there's a few providers that are doing better than others at having multiple streams of connection points to different financial institutions to ensure that if one's broken, six more remain type of thing. But I think you're really onto something, you know, we talk a lot about what, we looked very tactically at short term elements, but we also look very strategically to the longterm place.
[00:30:40] What is the role of digital banking 20 years from now? And I guarantee it's going to look nothing like what it does today, right? And a lot of our thoughts are around things like, more suggestive banking trends, right? So instead of me actually having to log into my digital banking app to say, check my account balance or see if a check is cleared or in your case, no checks direct deposit cleared or push notification or hey, just FYI, this has happened. Hey, just FYI, typically at this point in the month, you're a little bit higher up than you are in your checking account so be conscientious, you have this many bills that normally come due at this time as well. You know, those types of things and I think a lot of that comes back down to the types of data that PFMs and aggregators have in place, right?
[00:31:27] Because it has to be a complete snapshot. I think especially here in the us, right? We see people, they typically have their primary FI, but they usually have a few others for exactly the reasons you just mentioned earlier, right? Maybe I have my debit card here. I have an auto loan here. I have my mortgage here. I have my retirement account over here. They use this credit card because I get the points at restaurants and they use this credit card because they get the points on travel. And so all of a sudden, it's very easy to have four or five, six, seven plus financial institutions. And for us to come in and say, Oh gosh, Mike, you usually have a lot more in your checking account right now. We're really worried about you. And you're like, what are you talking about, man? I got $20,000 parked in my bank of America checking account. I'm totally fine. Right. So yeah, I'm not a star one member. So my account balance doesn't look like that. But you've got to have a holistic picture, right?
[00:32:21] Mike Tierney: [00:32:21] Yeah, it's gotta be holistic and up-to-date and less work on the member to like maintenance and, you know, maybe it'd be good if it was a more fun, more gamified where your behavior as far as savings or goal setting that are being met. Paying bills on time or something. Maybe you're getting some sort of badges or some kind of recognition, little something to keep you going on your quest that you're achieving your goals so that you're more inclined to be logging in and checking it and feeling rewarded about it.
[00:32:50] I like that too more than maybe my generation, but being exposed to quests or games or some kind of singles badges, something where your goals and your Trek towards your goals are being recognized in some manner. In a reward thing maybe but even if it's not just some sort of a batch, like an online of a badge that you've reached the mountain. Some sort of cool emoji guy at the top of the mountain, you know, something where just a little bit more fun in the book but the main thing is just making sure that it's accurate and that it's a low maintenance for the member and that it includes everything.
[00:33:21] Josh Detar: [00:33:21] You know, it's interesting you bring up the gamification. I was just talking to a Canadian company recently and they were talking about the utilization of gamification for more training elements. and they use gamification for training internal staff members on different products, services, ways of using the core or the admin console, digital banking or whatever it may be, right? And then they were talking about member facing elements and they said they went a totally different route. And I stopped and I asked the guy, I said, why don't you do the gamification there? And he said, we tried, it didn't work. It failed miserably.
[00:33:53] Mike Tierney: [00:33:53] So the public didn't like it.
[00:33:54] Josh Detar: [00:33:54] He said it just didn't adopt. And you know, I got to thinking about it later and have you seen a company harvest savings and wealth?
[00:34:01] Mike Tierney: [00:34:01] Yeah. I think I've heard of them. Yeah.
[00:34:03] Josh Detar: [00:34:03] Yeah, they're doing some new cool things in goals and helping people with savings goals. You know, I got to thinking about it and I thought about myself personally, right? And, maybe starting to finally age a little bit and I'm not that young kid who wants to play games in my digital banking app but I definitely am a hardcore AppleWatch junkie.
[00:34:22] And I tell you what those silly three rings man. They're very motivating. If it's 10 o'clock at night, I'm exhausted and I'm ready to go to bed. And my watch is like, you only got 11 of your 12 stand hours. You best believe I'm going to be jumping in place around my bed before I get in. Cause I want to close that ring.
[00:34:37] What does it do for me? Absolutely nothing other than the satisfaction that I completed a goal. Right? And so I think really simple tools. That offer that same type of satisfaction and reward to help incentivize people to make smart financial decisions, could be really interesting. And I just to tack this on before you respond, you were mentioning something to me that I found fascinating before we actually started recording.
[00:35:05] And that was that the national savings average for the Dutch is something like 8% and through COVID has almost doubled. So how do we get that kind of mindset back here to the US and do you think it is things like gamification and what does that look like?
[00:35:19]Mike Tierney: [00:35:19] I think, honestly, it's really just a cultural differentiator. Like the Dutch are, they're very proud of the things that make them Dutch. It's so impressive to meet folks and to learn about this new culture but, you know, it's, Calvinistic based where there's self-reliant folks, by enlarge, self-reliant, they're not really into Austin patient. There's a big thing where, you know how we're all about, Hey, how are you doing, how you doing today? They don't know what to do with that question because they think what you're saying is that, Oh, well, I'll tell you how I'm doing my daughter just, she just had her bicycle stolen.
[00:35:49] And, I'm spending an hour dealing with that and I was supposed to go to this meeting and I was late. So they think you want to know how you doing for real. And for us, we use it as a greedy. It's different if I say, how you doing? You're coming home. You're my spouse, you know, and I want to know really how was your day, but generally the US we use it all the time with people at a store that we're never going to see again. Here in the Netherlands it's very, like when you say good day, good evening, good morning. That's how you say how you doing? And if you say how you're doing to somebody, and they're not used to talking to UK people or Americans, they're going to be like, I don't know what to do with that. you know,
[00:36:21] Josh Detar: [00:36:21] Yeah. Be prepared for a two hour life story.
[00:36:23] Mike Tierney: [00:36:23] Or they're just going to shake their head and be like, I'm fine because listen, I know that you don't want to know how I'm doing, and I don't want to tell you how I'm doing, you know?
[00:36:30] So it's that sort of mentality of being self-reliant and they really take, I don't like fakeness to a new level. So, you know, I think that might come down to it where they, then that means like only spend within your means. Only spend what you have and only pay what you owe and that's, you know, the expression going Dutch is for real. It's like, you're going to pay what you bought at the dinner and I'm going to pay what I bought for dinner. And we're going to go on our way and be ,
[00:36:54] Josh Detar: [00:36:54] Ever getting on our way.
[00:36:55] Mike Tierney: [00:36:55] Yeah. So I think that's the mentality. And I was speaking to , she's a, lady that grew up in the Netherlands but is going to school in the UK right now.
[00:37:05] She's a financial economist as well as a psychology behavioral psychologist, really interesting fields, right? So she's studying. Yeah. She studies how people deal with their money basically.
[00:37:15] Josh Detar: [00:37:15] You got to let me get her on the podcast.
[00:37:17] Mike Tierney: [00:37:17] I'll ask her. She's pretty impressive.
[00:37:18] Josh Detar: [00:37:18] That sounds fascinating.
[00:37:19] Mike Tierney: [00:37:19] Yeah. So she was basically saying that, the idea is you're not into having debt and you're not into spending money you don't have and that's just how it goes.
[00:37:29] And whether it's people teaching them, their kids, small towns, big towns here or it's also incorporated into their education. Like through their curriculum throughout middle school, K through 12, it's like money management. It's much more of a standard educational piece than it is in the US where, you know, a lot of times it's not included in the regular curriculum and the schools are looking out to credit unions and other institutions to come in on special occasions to make these special classes. So I think they're just money management is ingrained in their education as well as how they're brought up as kids.
[00:37:59]Josh Detar: [00:37:59] What do you miss most about the US?
[00:38:00]Mike Tierney: [00:38:00] Food. Oh yeah. Like what was the last time you heard someone say, Hey, a new Dutch restaurant opened up down the street. Have you heard that?
[00:38:07]Josh Detar: [00:38:07] That's fair. I don't think I've ever heard that.
[00:38:11]
[00:38:11] Mike Tierney: [00:38:11] Street waffle, they're pretty good. And there's lots of great stuff here, you know?
[00:38:14]Josh Detar: [00:38:14] I've been on a Dutch baby kick lately. Is that count?
[00:38:17] Mike Tierney: [00:38:17] I mean, I really.
[00:38:19] Josh Detar: [00:38:19] Is that even Dutch food actually?
[00:38:20] Mike Tierney: [00:38:20] I don't know, I miss a good nice burger, some chicken wings, just even like Italian, Korean, you know, just the, you're not Thai food. It's, they're difficult to find.
[00:38:31] Josh Detar: [00:38:31] That would be hard. I don't know. Without tacos and Thai food, I'd be in a rough bind.
[00:38:36]Mike Tierney: [00:38:36] You're buying it yourself. You're cooking at home. You're doing your best. But it's very,
[00:38:40] Josh Detar: [00:38:40] You said that's a lot of kind of the norm right now too, right? Is restaurants are all takeout. And you said you guys are doing a lot more cooking at home and.
[00:38:48] Mike Tierney: [00:38:48] Yeah.
[00:38:49] Josh Detar: [00:38:49] You're kind of experimenting with new things.
[00:38:51] Mike Tierney: [00:38:51] I shouldn't make too many snap judgements, especially if there's any Dutch folks out there listening. I don't want to put down your food culture because I haven't had a chance to fully taste it because no one's going out, right? So,
[00:39:00] Josh Detar: [00:39:00] Yeah that's a whole nother podcast in itself is just moving across the continents.
[00:39:05] Mike Tierney: [00:39:05] Yeah. During a global pandemic.
[00:39:06] Josh Detar: [00:39:06] Yeah.
[00:39:07] Mike Tierney: [00:39:07] Yeah. It was a little crazy. We weren't even sure we could get it done but because we were waiting for the Dutch government to give us permission to get our residency. Cause otherwise the us wasn't going to let us get out of there. Cause there's no traveling. Unless you get like, we look like tourists if we didn't have that residency permit. But we did with our dog. We made it.
[00:39:24]Josh Detar: [00:39:24] That's wild. Well, Mike, I think I could probably talk to you all the rest of the day, but, we're kind of coming up on the end of our time here. So maybe just a few questions to wrap up with. So let's start with some of your favorite resources. Especially, very fascinated to hear.
[00:39:37] Being in the Netherlands, how are you staying up on not just financial institutions as a whole and what interests you but also what's happening here in the US. So what are your favorite resources these days?
[00:39:49] Mike Tierney: [00:39:49] Well for banking stuff and like the financial brand. Have you ever read? pin eponymous?
[00:39:55] Josh Detar: [00:39:55] Yeah. John San Philipo and Roy Yuriko and yeah, absolutely. You're the second person that's mentioned Fen eponymous as their new, a go-to spot.
[00:40:03] Mike Tierney: [00:40:03] Yeah, they're good. I like what they have to do, like what they have to say. and then like, of course, like CU times and like affinity guys like Jim Brune, I think, I don't know if I'm saying this name correct.
[00:40:12] Josh Detar: [00:40:12] Yeah. And lots of digital.
[00:40:13] Yeah. Jim and Chris?
[00:40:14] Mike Tierney: [00:40:14] Yeah. Yeah. And then stuff that's tech wise, but maybe not banking wise.
[00:40:19] It's always good to find out what they're doing like, Mashable, the next web wired stuff like that. you can get what's happening in the tech industry it doesn't necessarily have to be banking, but there's some cool ideas that banking folks need to look at it anyway. Sometimes we get stuck in our own bubble, right?
[00:40:33] Josh Detar: [00:40:33] Yep. For sure.
[00:40:34] Mike Tierney: [00:40:34] So Yeah.
[00:40:35] Josh Detar: [00:40:35] Awesome, Thanks Mike. Well, thank you so much for, joining me on the digital banking podcast.
[00:40:40] Mike Tierney: [00:40:40] It's been my pleasure.
[00:40:41] Josh Detar: [00:40:41] All right, Mike, we'll talk to you later. Thank you so much.
[00:40:43] Mike Tierney: [00:40:43] Take care.
[00:40:43] Josh Detar: [00:40:43] Bye.