[00:00:00] Josh DeTar: All right. Welcome to another episode of the Digital Banking Podcast. My guest today is Shaun Murray, the CEO for ESP CORE. And Shaun among having probably one of the single best out-of-office message responders I have ever seen, really wants to encourage community FIs to seriously reconsider how they do due diligence in selecting technology providers. So obviously this is a topic I'm going to have a lot of interesting questions around for you Shawn. So thanks for being on the show today.
[00:00:33] Shaun Murray: I appreciate the drops. I've been excited about this for quite some time.
[00:00:38] Josh DeTar: So I'm sure people probably want a little bit of clarification on the statement that I made. You do, you have probably one of the best approaches to out-of-offices I think I've ever seen, and I stole mine from you because it's just so much fun to get an out-of-office from somebody that's a little bit more entertaining than a just, "I'm out, I'll be back Monday." So, if you don't [00:01:00] know what I'm talking about, one time when you know Shaun's gonna be out of the office, you gotta make sure you send this guy an email. 'Cause it, trust me, it'll be worth your day.
[00:01:06] Shaun Murray: Ah, I love it. Perfect. Hopefully I live up to that.
[00:01:10] Josh DeTar: Oh, I know you do. So talk to me a little bit about why you believe that especially, you know, community FIs need to rethink the way that they're doing due diligence specifically around selecting technology providers.
[00:01:24] Shaun Murray: Yeah sure. You know I think, basically the last five to ten years technology has changed so drastically that, that, not only is new technology introduced into the market as far as partnerships and types of companies within a certain space, but the way that you can go about making those conversions happen. And I think the due diligence process in many cases is defined as partnership. But we lose the vision of partnership when we're doing the due diligence process if they even do one at all. We run into a lot of credit use these [00:02:00] days, especially the smaller community FIs that are not really doing a due diligence. They are sort of going along and not paying a lot of attention to what's out there. We'll call a complacency, for lack of better words. And I think the due diligence process is not only important to see what's in the, out in the space, but also for the credit union to better understand what they're looking for. Asking hard questions that they might not have asked of themselves in the past, and opening up their horizons to what's, what's available and not being afraid. Conversions, specifically around due diligence of course, but conversions at the end of the due diligence process in the past has been painful. That was years ago. I mean, it was, it was laborious and it doesn't have to be. It isn't anymore. So it opens up this whole new realm of possibilities for credit unions and quite frankly, I [00:03:00] think a lot of credit unions are missing the boat on.
[00:03:03] Josh DeTar: You know as a fellow technology provider to credit unions it's something we see a lot of. I mean, I see such a wide range of due diligence that's done on digital banking platforms. Everything from, you know, "Hey, we saw a demo from four providers. This one was pretty flashy. We're feeling pretty good about that one. So, you know, we're going to move forward with that one." To, you know, "We've brought in, you know, a consultant to run our RFP process, a consultant to run our contract negotiation process. We're going to be issuing a 300 page RFP. You know, we're going to do 12 structured demos and everything in between." What kinds of things have you seen and experienced? And what are the recommendations that you're making as a technologist on the other side that are actually actionable, that credit unions can take away and say, "Hey, you know what, next time I am evaluating a technology provider", whether it's CORE, whether it's Digital Banking or something totally different, that they [00:04:00] could kind of take with them to that process?
[00:04:02] Shaun Murray: Sure. Yeah. You know, the, I would say first and foremost, do your due diligence. I mean, and, and when you start that, whether it's with a consultant or not, we can, I'll touch on that too, but define what's important. You know, what I've seen over the last 25 years of doing this is in the last definitely 5, again, we'll say 10, 5 to 10 is the priority as defined initially is around partnership, around relationship, around what the credit union, your clients, whoever, whatever technology space you reside in, whatever your clients think of you, but then it changes through that process. And so, now you have the companies you're looking at are addressing these, these gaps that you feel you have in your current environment, your current partnership. And it, and then it doesn't about face somewhere down the middle. [00:05:00] And all of a sudden it's not that important, or at least it doesn't appear to be that important. And then, and then it seems to convert to some sort of use case in the credit union that was never defined upfront. And I believe through doing many of these is that the conversation switches once the maybe initial again, partnership, whatever the case may be at the beginning is addressed, and then it sort of takes a whole new path. And at sometimes that can be confusing for everyone, the partner or the vendor, including the credit union. And the other thing is, is include your staff. I do so many of these, these due diligence processes where it's just the manager, credit union president, whatever they may be called at the credit union, and, but it's impacting everyone. And I'm not saying that, you know, every credit union can or have every person at that credit union involved, but it sure seems to me like the more people you [00:06:00] have buying into whatever product does is you're looking at or partner then it makes that transition much smoother because you have buy-in. And I, experience tells me that if that doesn't happen it's harder to drive the initiative down from a managerial level to your staff to have the buy-in and at the decision, because it feels like the power of one, and it just doesn't work. And.
[00:06:28] Josh DeTar: I can't tell you how many times we've had, you know, conversations where we have, you know, been selected as the digital banking provider. And when we get into even late stages, you know, you do, you have people who are variant, you know, involved in the project, very important to successful, go live with the project, come in and say, you know, "I'm struggling to market this or do this or whatever." And it's because they [00:07:00] didn't have buy-in, and it's because they weren't involved in the project. I mean, we've had a couple of times where we've talked to teams, you know, about their marketing plan and the marketing team comes in at the very end of the project and goes, "Well, what does this thing look like?" You're like, "Wait, what?"
[00:07:14] Shaun Murray: Yeah.
[00:07:15] Josh DeTar: I thought you were even in on maybe some of their earlier demos and maybe that person wasn't. Right. Or maybe they were, but they just didn't feel it was important at the time, so they were kind of checked out. But I agree. I think getting involvement across the organization, you know, look at the type of product you're looking to implement and say, "Who all needs to be involved in this?" And whether they have a seat at the end decision table or not is irrelevant, but at least getting their participation, buy-in, their questions. You know, you're looking at something as complex as digital banking. You've got to make sure you have somebody from pretty much every vertical within the credit union represented.
[00:07:54] Shaun Murray: Absolutely, 'cause they have to explain to the members. Does that mean it doesn't matter what, you know, anything in the technology space within [00:08:00] a credit union is going to be extended to the members. It doesn't, I mean you could argue, there's a few things that are only in house, but the reality is a lot of it, you're, the staff's going to have to explain. I don't care if you have 2 staff or 200 or 2000, they have to know. And you know, I would also encourage credit unions, you know, if they're thinking about a vendor, they make the short list, they should be meeting them in person, you know, as a, as a, as a vendor partner, potential partner. You know, I, I, I would say anybody that really wants the business would have no problem coming out and meeting up, make sure you get along. Make sure you, you know, there's that long-term partnership is what you're hoping for, I think everyone is. I mean credit unions in general don't switch that often. And when they do, you should be looking 5, 10, 15, 20, 25 years down the road. I wouldn't want to partner with somebody I don't get along with, and I'll know right away. It's pretty, pretty obvious generally. And I think that's for all the [00:09:00] positives about a consultant in the process. And there are some for sure, that's the one that I don't fully understand, and that is relationship is always the high on the one, the top three categories of importance. But I don't have the opportunity to speak with and, or meet prior to making cuts. So it doesn't make, like that whole process is very confusing to me, and I, I I'm trying to better understand it, but I think after 25 years I don't know that I will.
[00:09:32] Josh DeTar: Yeah. You know, you had made that comment earlier and I wanted to come back to this. I think we see a lot of that in our space as well, where, you know, when we talked to the credit union directly and we ask them about, "What are the things that are most important to you through this process? Why are you even looking?" We all know this is a big ordeal. It's a big undertaking to do the evaluation process, is going to take a lot of staff time, resources. The implemation, [00:10:00] implementation is going to take even more time and staff and resources and money. And then, you got to get it live, get it ironed out, get it smooth. This is a big project, right? So when we ask them, "What are the things that you're hoping to get out of it? Why are you even doing this in the first place?" I agree with you, I'd say usually in the top three, and a lot of times in the top one is, "We're looking for somebody who is a better partner to us. Somebody that gives us a seat at the table. Somebody that collaborates with us. Somebody that listens and doesn't just build features for the sake of building features or building features for the sake of generating revenue. But building features that actually bring meaningful benefit and value to my institution and my members."
[00:10:48] Shaun Murray: Yeah.
[00:10:48] Josh DeTar: And then their due diligence process takes a hard left, and doesn't actually put very much, if any energy on identifying that. And we see a lot of [00:11:00] times, we picked vendor A over vendor B because vendor A had 301 features and vendor B had 300. And they had 1 more feature and we negotiated on price between A and B, and they both came to the same price. A had 1 more feature, hence the win. But, C had 295 features. But in that five-year contract that you were going to sign with them they had gotten you did 310, and those extra 15 they developed would have been actually truly beneficial for you, and A and B would still be at 300 and 301 because the philosophy of their culture or their company is not to continue building features based on how does it actually impact my customers. Right. So, not identifying that culture in one of your vendors is a direct disconnect, in my personal opinion, from saying "We're looking for somebody because we want a better relationship."
[00:11:57] Shaun Murray: Right. And I w you know, I agree a hundred [00:12:00] percent. And I would also say, you know, to, to, to piggyback on that is that, you know, the, like with what we do and what you do is, is features 300, 301, great. But I would argue that the most important thing prior to making that decision would be, "How do I work with the company to understand my needs and wants, regardless of how fast the other you're going to, like, I, for example, regardless of how fast we're going to build it, I want to have an outlet to converse. I want to have an outlet to share, and I want to be able to talk to somebody that can make some decisions, and, and just be heard, and know that that relationship exists, and it's mutually beneficial." And I think that's one of those things that we just, we lose sight of. In it, you know, 99 out of a 100 credit unions, [00:13:00] 99 out of a 100, I would be willing to bet in 25 years that I've worked with, would say relationships number one. Right. We've talked about that, but features are not mentioned in the top three. They honestly very rarely are they ever. It is, "I am frustrated with my support or service. I'm, I'm being nickel and dime to the point where it's driving me nuts, and I want to be heard." So, and I realized that at least, you know, with the, on our side, it's, it's hard for a credit union looking to always believe the person selling that. So that's why we say call our clients. Like call, call clients regardless of who you're looking at. Right. It doesn't matter what space, you should be calling clients because when you hire people, you call their previous employers. So why wouldn't you do that now when you're doing [00:14:00] some very important partnerships? Which I would argue, every partnership is important, especially to a smaller FI. And the fact that, that we don't see that happen enough is frustrating. Because I, I, you know, when I'm buying something, I don't always, always believe the sales person on the other side. I, I, and I'm one of them. Like, I just don't always believe them. So I would call, in all the first thing I ask whenever we review vendors for ARC, for enhanced software products is I asked for referrals, and I start there. Because why would I waste my time if your clients aren't happy. And I realized that a lot of times you get a short list. Fine. You know, I can ask some probing questions. And it's just, I think, I think a lot of advisors are missing the bus on, on fully understanding what's important from being honest.
[00:14:53] Josh DeTar: Yeah. That's a good point too, of having the right types of questions to ask. Because it is [00:15:00] true. You know, we see a lot of that. No, I'm in the same boat as you, anytime we're purchasing software or we're looking to work with a company, I want to talk to their references. Quite frankly, I'm always a little leery when I say, you know, "I want to talk to your references" and they send me over 2.
[00:15:14] Shaun Murray: Right, out of 400.
[00:15:16] Josh DeTar: "Huh? So these are your 2 happy ones, and you're scared that I'm going to call one of the other 398?" And, you know, that was one of the things, you know, when I joined this team, so it was a non-negotiable. We give out our entire customer list when somebody asks for references.
[00:15:30] Shaun Murray: So do we.
[00:15:31] Josh DeTar: And, and I loved it when, we had a customer who recently signed with us, and they made a comment when they called one of their references, they said they were actually genuinely surprised because the reference was also surprised that they were getting in the call. And, so the prospect made the comment, they said, "Wait, you didn't call them and prep them and tell them what to say, and who we were?" No. They'll tell you the good, the bad, the ugly, and my hope is that the good will [00:16:00] outweigh the bad. There'll be a good reference for me. And if the bad outweighs it, then I want to know, and I want to go see how I can fix that. But no, you should just call them and get the unadulterated truth. Like it is what it is.
[00:16:11] Shaun Murray: What I think.
[00:16:12] Josh DeTar: And I think that coupled with asking the right questions to your point can reveal a lot.
[00:16:19] Shaun Murray: I think this is, surprising part about doing that honestly is from our side, and as well as the credit union looking side is, you know, I would, you know, our, our, I can speak for our clients. Our clients are honest. We've had some potential credit union call our clients and they shared the things that they were unhappy with. But in that process, what the potential client ended up finding out was what, what our client was frustrated with is like everyday stuff for them. So it's, it brought things sort of back to level, like, "Okay, let's re, what's really [00:17:00] important?" Right. Because if I'm, if they're not doing X, but they're succeeding everywhere else, well heck I never thought about X because my current vendor doesn't even do that anyway. So I sort of wrote that off. And they're realizing that what, what a credit unions, or otherwise may say negatively about you really isn't that negative. It's just sort of solidifying the fact that you do everything else amazing. And that's the thing, like, that's the one thing maybe that they're frustrated with, but it's really not a big thing in the scheme of things. And, and I'm not downplaying anyone's concerns at all. We want to address all of them, you know. But I do think that the positives and negatives, and that's a question that a credit union that has now on our system, but one of the questions they asked, or I should say two was, "What do you like? And what do you dislike?" And, so they were able to weigh that out with what they have today, and they called 15 credit unions. And like you, we opened up our entire client base. So [00:18:00] call them all, call 10.
[00:18:04] Josh DeTar: You know, it's funny to think that in this space, when we're purchasing something as potentially expensive and important as you know, a key piece of technology for a community FI, Hm, as they're doing that due diligence, you would think they would want to call basically every single reference. I mean, you think about it, how many of us buy based on recommendation today? Right? It's so ingrained in our culture between, you know, reviews, and Yelp, and you name it, right. If I'm looking at a product or a service I almost always start with the reviews. And then I want a chance to go through, and I want to see enough of them because if there's a ton that just say "Awesome product. Great product. Best product." Like who wrote those? Is that your friends trying to boost your reviews? What was that? I want, I want to get some more. You know, and then you look at all the negatives and [00:19:00] you're like, "Okay, well that's probably just because user error. Well, that's probably because you're just trying to complain. Well, that's probably because of the. Oh, that's probably legitimate. That sounds like a problem with this, but can I overcome that? Or, is that, that big of a deal to me?" You know? And then you start to read through it and start to get an actual full picture of, you know, what is it like to purchase a product or service company.
[00:19:26] Shaun Murray: Alright. And what in, I think, I don't think anybody actually expects this, but to think that, you know, you're going to partner with anyone. I don't care in your personal life or business life or that that person or company is a five-star review all the time is quite frankly not true. Like it doesn't exist. You know the five star reviews is because the two and one-stars weren't posted. Where they were so frustrated they didn't do it. So, you know, I mean, I think that, that's, that's a [00:20:00] big part of what we see is, is just not asking the questions. Not saying, "Hey, let me get the information to analyze it because maybe that I don't want to hear from Shaun. You know, I don't, I don't want Shaun's feedback on this. I want the unfiltered content." Well, there you go. You call them all. And you know, and, and every credit union is different. You know, every credit union at one location, 27, 14, they all they're all have different needs. And, but I would argue that a lot of it comes back to the partnership and the ability to work with other like-partners.
[00:20:37] Josh DeTar: Yeah. So that's a nice key takeaway. Right. Make sure you do due diligence in reaching out to current install base and see, "Hey, what's, what's working with this company like? What's the technology like? How's their roadmap been for the last few years?" But you know, making sure you've got some really good questions that you ask the same questions across [00:21:00] each of the reference checks can give you a really decent picture of what it would be like if you were their customer too. What other types of things have you seen that have worked really well in credit unions due diligence processes?
[00:21:13] Shaun Murray: Aside from making sure that you meet a decision-maker at the company you're looking at, like, for example us, a, the credit union bring someone in. But I, I would say what's worked most certainly the best is again having the team involved. But also when you start decide what you're looking for. Are you looking for a vendor in a geographical location? Are you looking for a smaller company to partner with? Are you looking for partner that has credit unions of a certain size? Whatever it is you're looking for, you can narrow that down pretty quickly to, you know, three, four, maybe five at the most potential vendor partners. If it's somethings that amazed me is, I just went through an RFI recently and there was [00:22:00] 10 CORE vendors looked at. I mean, I don't know how you're going to decipher that on any, you know, digital banking doesn't matter, in any space within the credit union. I don't understand how you're going to actually get enough information out of that to make a decision to move on with such a wide field of options. You could have narrowed that down much, much smaller, I believe. And, I think that the credit union has to understand, at the end of the day, what they want and there is some preliminary decisions that can be made prior to starting that due diligence process. And, but I, I think that sometimes just going in just, "Oh, we're going to choose these 10 or whatever it is just because" is a waste of a lot of people's time.
[00:22:53] Josh DeTar: What would you say is some good criteria to use to narrow down the field before actually going to something like an RFI?
[00:22:59] Shaun Murray: [00:23:00] Sure. Well, I, first and foremost, I would say ask your peers. I mean, why you wouldn't start there? Is, is, is, seems silly to me. I mean, if you have peers around you you trust, I don't care if they're in your state, if they're in a different sector in the credit union industry, but you, everyone has people they trust and they should be asking the questions. "Okay, I'm looking at, you know, whatever, a CORE, and what have you heard about X, Y, and Z? What do you think about, do you know anybody using them?" That would be where I would start a hundred percent of the time. There's in any technology space in credit unions, and I would probably argue anywhere, there's most certainly the ones that everyone knows. And that's fine. You should still be asking those questions because, I guess the goal is to narrow down, based on your need, want, desire. Narrow that list down so that you can spend enough [00:24:00] time effectively during the due diligence process with the ones that have already met a criteria that is important to you. That you didn't even need input from that, that vendor space on at all. So I would start with peers, a hundred percent of the time, a hundred.
[00:24:16] Josh DeTar: You know, you made a comment about, you know, looking for the people who offer what you're looking for.
[00:24:22] Shaun Murray: Hm.
[00:24:22] Josh DeTar: I don't know if you can add to this or not, but I, I honestly think I've had way too many conversations where the FI doesn't know what they're looking for. You know, I like to, I like to ask why obnoxiously. So when I get an answer, I say, "Okay, why? Why?" until we really drill down to the "Why" of it all. And what's interesting is I will make the brazen enough statement that we've gone into enough of these evaluations where if I doesn't know "Why" really to its core. It may be [00:25:00] some surface level stuff, contracts coming up for renewal, we think it might be expensive, we don't think they're responding to tickets fast enough, whatever it may be. But I mean, I'll give you an example and I won't name any names, but we talked to a, a fairly large FI, I don't know earlier this year. And I asked them, you know, what are your strategic objectives for the next five years? And, you know, my point was to drill down to what are the things that you're trying to do that we can either help you accomplish or getting your way of if you pick us as your vendor? And we can kind of help self-select ourselves. And they said, "Well, we have one. It's to go from 5 billion to 10 billion, in assets."
[00:25:42] Shaun Murray: Sure.
[00:25:42] Josh DeTar: It's a great "Why?". The whole room got real quiet. And didn't have a good answer. Right. It was just, we wanted to get bigger. Well, why, what does getting bigger do? Does it help you provide better [00:26:00] technology to service the members that you already have and the members that are going to come on board? Does it help you to open up a new geography that's underserved? What's the why behind it? So I think that, that's, that's where you have to start. You have to really understand your why before you can then go in and say to vendor, "This is what I'm looking for, and this is why. And then can you help me do that?"
[00:26:25] Shaun Murray: Yeah, no. I, yes. We, we run into a lot of that as well. We, you know, everything you said is a hundred percent accurate in terms of, "I've heard it a million times and I've seen it, witnessed, had been a part of it." And I think some, sometimes, and, and I don't think either one of us was when everyone in this, in this space, but a lot of credit unions don't have those answers. And instead of asking the tough questions to themselves, they, at many times make decisions on what's comfortable. What's comfortable around them, and, and not really [00:27:00] diving into what's truly important for them. And a lot of times, actually could have a lot to do with tenure, right. Tenure left the institution. It could have, depends on number of staff, how much time they have allocated to do such due diligence or questions, or they don't have a support staff behind them, again, based on maybe size that can feed into answering those questions. And, but I, I don't think that excuses the fact that they should be defined will only help the process in many different areas in the company and the credit union, but specifically to this, to choosing a vendor. Because you want like-minded vendors. I would argue. I mean, there are some in some ways, and in many cases I should say, there are solutions you can put in place that are quick and easy. They're not what we do, but they're quick and easy and they can make decisions that have less thought in those, [00:28:00] because those can be changed quickly if it doesn't work. Right. And nobody's gonna lose their job or whatever the case may be. But when you're talking about a partnership that is for years on end, knowing full well that you are committed to that and hoping for longer term, those questions have to be answered like internally, like you said, I mean, and you have to be willing to share them openly and probably right away. Because if you're waiting for somebody to drill down into this, I think you might be missing the boat sometimes. I think if you're more direct with, "This is what I'm looking to accomplish. Can you do this? Yes? No? Okay." You know, you're in or you're out and everyone wins. And, and I think that again could go big, small, doesn't matter. Those questions should be asked.
[00:28:50] Josh DeTar: I want to come back to, you know, asking those questions boldly and bluntly up front. And are you in, or are you out, but you've made a comment a couple of times [00:29:00] about losing your job. And there's a saying for a reason, right? Nobody ever got fired for buying IBM. Oh there's a reason for that, it was, you know, the standard that just worked. If you bought it, was it a hundred percent right for you? Maybe, maybe not, but you know, you bought IBM and your boss was happy with you. So you got to keep your job, right.
[00:29:20] Shaun Murray: Yeah.
[00:29:20] Josh DeTar: I think that there needs to be a culture shift at credit unions. I think there needs to be a culture shift, not quite too. And I think I've used this reference on the podcast before, but you know, I'm not maybe quite to Elon Musk levels, but you know, the guy says, "Oh, bummer. We blew up a rocket while we learned something from it." I'm not saying you should go out and blow up a ton of rockets, but I'm saying that you should have some sort of culture at your credit union that says it's okay to try. And I think we have a longstanding history of trying things that people get fired over. You know, you get the person who wants to, you know, try the [00:30:00] startup and the implementation goes poorly. And it goes poorly based on the standards they've set from. Well, had we implemented the, you know, status quo product here, this implementation would have gone this way. This didn't go that way. Therefore, it was a failure, right. Somebody loses a job over it. But, and then they probably fired the vendor. But if they'd really stuck it out with that vendor, if they'd done their due diligence upfront, that person that got fired was like, "You know what? They might botch a few things 'cause they're learning, because they're new. And you know what? Our first couple of months might be a struggle, but five years from now, if we're still with them, we are going to be leaps and bounds ahead of the competition because we picked this group.
[00:30:44] Shaun Murray: Hm.
[00:30:45] Josh DeTar: But instead we say, "Well, I'm going to go with the status quo. I'm going to go with the safe choice because I don't want to lose my job over this." And then innovation doesn't happen.
[00:30:55] Shaun Murray: Right. And I, you're right. And I, you know, it all comes down to [00:31:00] the beginning. Right. Your due diligence process, and what I believe to be inclusive. Include your, include your staff, the ones you can fit, but the more people you have involved in the process of decision, the more people we have involved in making sure that that thing will succeed. Nobody today in our space that has clients is really, truly set up to fail. Like some people will, you know, some companies sell out, we see it all the time. Those things happen, but you can't, you, you, nobody can see that coming. Like that doesn't, you can assume, but you don't see it coming. And so if you have companies in the credit union technology space that have clients, you've vetted those clients, you know, you've understood if they're happy, sad, whatever, and you've done your due diligence to cross the T's and dot the I's that you defined as important. Then it shouldn't matter if your company is called widgets.com or, you know, [00:32:00] X, Y, Z. It should be irrelevant in my opinion, because you've vetted out and you've made the right decision. And one of the best, one of the most successful due diligence processes that I have seen is one that we had done fairly recently where the credit union did no pricing. And I'm not saying that works for everyone, but the point is this, they did no pricing upfront. They had three or four onsite meetings, included staff. And when it came time to make a decision, the staff was bought in on that decision. And therefore when that conversion happened, and again, that could be in any part of the space industry, but when that conversion happened on the CORE side, everyone was invested in making sure that that succeeded. So the person that ultimately makes the decision without the buy-in underneath them, that's how, and that's how they lose [00:33:00] quote-unquote their job. They, I don't know how you would possibly do that if you include everyone. I mean, ultimately it rests on your head, but again, I argue that 99.9% of all companies in our space are, if done proper due diligence, aren't gonna fail you. It's, it's your involvement in it. So.
[00:33:22] Josh DeTar: Yeah. But I, you know, just going back to that, I think there needs to be some kind of culture change to it too. You know, I feel like, I've heard on multiple occasions, I've had conversations with the CEO after we've done a demo and we're onsite at lunch and, you know, they get a little bit more open and they say things like, you know, "Hey, our last digital banking conversion didn't go very well. And if this one goes poorly, the board will fire me. I will lose my job."
[00:33:50] Shaun Murray: Hmm.
[00:33:51] Josh DeTar: And I'm sitting there thinking, especially a larger organization, you know, they're pretty removed from the due diligence process. They're entrusting the [00:34:00] team of people that they have. And, you know, so the board's now potentially a couple of levels removed from this process. And, and again, you know, the team is, I think with ridiculously rare exception, never setting out to implement something poorly so their CEO gets fired. You know, they, they want this to be just as successful. And maybe they do, maybe they decide, you know what, this is the riskier move, but based on a well-vetted why, and then using that to have well-vetted due diligence that helps us answer the question of, will this vendor help us with our why, we've picked, you know, XYZ vendor. And you know what? That implementation doesn't go great. And it is what it is. We learn from our failure. And we grow from it. And so, if that vendor was picked with the right due diligence, [00:35:00] they're going to respond well to that it didn't go well. They're going to work to fix it. They're going to work with you collaboratively to build better things going forward. And so if you stick with it, does it end up being better than having just stayed where you were or done the safe choice. But that CEO may be so scared of losing their job over a potentially rocky weekend or high call center volume. So they tell their team when they bring their final three to them, they say, "Hey, look, we've got these two. They're the gold standard in our industry. You know, everybody else uses 'em. They've been around forever. They're a part of XYZ big company. Whatever it may be. And we have this little one, and we love them. They're the right type of people. They're thinking about it the right way. They're making moves. We think that they can help us solve these things that are critically important to us." And the CEO is, "Well, but I could lose my job over that one. So why don't we go with one of those other two?"
[00:35:59] Shaun Murray: [00:36:00] Which seems pretty contradictory accrediting philosophy, if you asked me. So yeah. We're, we would be in that boat. You know what I mean? It's one of those things that I couldn't agree more. I don't know how to change that, but I hear it all the time, especially in our space. And there has to be a shift in it. I, again, I don't know how to do it other than to just give it a hundred percent when we do conversions and, and then have those potential cravings calling the person that just converted and tell them honest truths about it and see what happens. I mean, I don't know how to change the mindset on the vendor's side without it, but there's so many moving parts depending on how size, how big the credit union is, where if, you know, that thought of losing my job comes into play, man, I just, I don't know how to touch all that, but I couldn't agree more, could not agree more. I think people should be rewarded for taking chances. [00:37:00] We have a poster in here that speaks to that actually.
[00:37:04] Josh DeTar: Yeah. Also
[00:37:05] Shaun Murray: Take chances, make mistakes.
[00:37:07] Josh DeTar: Side note, if you haven't been to Shaun's office, he has probably some of the best office art and posters around his office. And, I'm very much so regretting you can't see behind me right now with him on. But, no, you make a good point, right. I mean, I'm a new father, and you know, this is something that my wife and I talk a lot about. This is one of the skills that we want to instill into our son early. Is it's okay to fail as long as you try, and you had good intentions, and you put forth the effort.
[00:37:40] Shaun Murray: Hm.
[00:37:41] Josh DeTar: I don't fault somebody for failing if they gave it their all.
[00:37:45] Shaun Murray: Right. And I would say sit
[00:37:47] Josh DeTar: I don't fault somebody for failing because they just, you know, "Eh, vendor eight looks good. They had a flashy demo. We'll call it a day." If that goes poorly, you know what? That's on you, sorry. You didn't do your due diligence. But if you tried really, really [00:38:00] hard to find the right company for you and you put in all the work and you tried really hard throughout the implementation process. And you know what, because of the 8 billion factors of things that go into technology conversions in our space today, something went wrong, as long as the response is good, and the path forward is better, I don't fault people for trying and taking chances because I think it's the only way you get two steps ahead.
[00:38:28] Shaun Murray: Yeah. And I, you're right Josh. And I would say that, you know, at least everyone I know, I won't make a generalized statement. Everyone I know wants to instill that in their, their children, and their significant others, and whatever that partners. And they want to instill that, but how, you know, bringing that from the personal to the business is the part that we've got to figure out. I mean, you can't, you know, teach your son that personally, but then somehow he's in an environment in business [00:39:00] that doesn't reward that. And I think that's the interesting part to me. Is it's we all, I would say most people are anymore, are onboard with that in their personal life supporting those around them. But then all of a sudden, sometimes when we get in the business space, it's this, you know, do something wrong you're, you're, you're done. And I don't understand it. I, you know, I think people should again be rewarded for making mistakes as long as it doesn't, you know, you know, data breach to the entire membership. I mean, if we're talking, you know, you make a, you make a poor decision on, on a vendor.
[00:39:39] Josh DeTar: It's been gross negligence.
[00:39:41] Shaun Murray: It's a hundred percent. But you make a, you make a poor decision on a partner. You know, I argue that you can go back, do a full circle to where it's not going to completely destroy any type of business or relationship or maybe a few relationships. [00:40:00] But the point is, is that I don't think we have progression and, and we're not taking the proper steps to improve ourselves as a credit union, as vendors, as everything else, people, if we're not viewing everything as this is, I've done everything I can, this is the right decision, I stick by it. And at the end of the day, if it's perfect, great. If it's got hiccups, I have the people around me to support me to get through it. And,
[00:40:31] Josh DeTar: Yeah.
[00:40:32] Shaun Murray: and that's, you've chosen that.
[00:40:34] Josh DeTar: That brings us back to the heart of this episode, which is you've got to do your due diligence. Absolutely. Are you taking a huge risk if you pick a risky vendor and do very little due diligence,? Or, if you're completely removed from the due diligence altogether, and you're not building that relationship with them from second one so that, you know, how will they respond if this doesn't go well? Or, [00:41:00] just not great? Or if it does go great, what will happen afterwards? You got to have a really solid due diligence process in place to mitigate some of that risk and then be able to make the right decision that's not just the decision that won't get you fired.
[00:41:16] Shaun Murray: Right.
[00:41:17] Josh DeTar: I think there's, in my opinion, there's at least two misconceptions that I run up against when we're talking to credit unions. And one of those is that, I think that there's a misconception that there's such a thing as too much due diligence, and you're going to annoy the vendor. I tell credit unions this all the time, you bug me as much as you want. You call my team and say, "You know what? I'm not gonna lie. I didn't get a lot of sleep last night. I didn't have a ton of coffee. I kind of zoned out a little bit through part of your demo. You guys come back and do a whole nother one for me?" You will never make me upset. Ever. You could ask for 500 demos, you could ask for 300 deep dive calls. You could ask to spend an [00:42:00] hour on one tiny little minutiae element of our platform or our business philosophy or whatever. I have no problem with it, because we're going to go into that relationship then on a much better understanding in a very different place then if you don't ask those questions upfront. So those questions are gonna come up eventually. She probably ask them before the contract gets signed. So, one, I would say there is no such thing as too much due diligence or asking too much of a vendor. I mean, granted within reason. But get the information you need to make your decision. Don't be afraid to continue to ask the vendor. And the right type of vendor, especially if you're looking for somebody that cares about a collaborative relationship, the right kind of vendor is never going to say, "No. You know what? Shaun, dude, we gave you two demos last week. If you can't figure it out by now, like." No, good vendor's going say that.
[00:42:58] Shaun Murray: Well, that's what, you're [00:43:00] right. Then I was just going to say, that's exactly I was just going to say is if you know, that should be, if nothing else, there's your test. Ask more questions and you think you should and see what the responses are. In the sense, not right or wrong, but are responsive. You know, what is that relationship like through the, through the, through the due diligence process? You know, it, I think you could find a lot out in the relationship just by doing that. And, and just see what ha, I mean, yeah, I've, I'm on board. I'll do a demo every day of the week, six times on Sunday. I'll do it at all. That's what we do. Like it's, you know, I want people to make the right decision, even if sometimes the right decision isn't us. Credit unions that listen to this that have had us in their mix will know that I always support them after the fact with any Q&A to help them get through. So that isn't, that's just simply understanding where we're at. Right. It's it's the introspective look on what our expectation is of ourselves. And that's just to treat everyone [00:44:00] fairly and help them as much as we can to find the right partners. And sometimes that's not us. Because I don't want the small financial institutions, the middle size, the large ones. I don't want those to go away. I want them to flourish because they have a purpose. And I think everybody should and does work well together when we all understand that. And I think that if we have more people that tried to do the right thing all the time, I would say that we'd be better for it, personally.
[00:44:32] Josh DeTar: Man, I think that's a good piece of Shaun Murray life advice, not just for technology for financial institutions,
[00:44:38] Shaun Murray: No true. But, but I, but I, but I, I think the business relationships are like personal ones. I, you again, you want a partner that you're going to be able to have a sounding board with and, and talk about the goods and bads with then those are probably long-term partners.
[00:44:56] Josh DeTar: Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, you made a comment that I wanted to touch [00:45:00] back on. You think about the process of engaging with the vendor. The salesperson is going to be the single most responsive person on planet earth I guarantee it, they want a paycheck. Let's just call a spade, a spade. That salesperson, their job is to sell things. They want a paycheck. They will be the single most responsive individual. So if you can't get responses or answers back from your salesperson, the rest of the organization is worse than that. I guarantee it.
[00:45:28] Shaun Murray: Right, right. Yeah. True.
[00:45:33] Josh DeTar: So, you know, I wanted to come back to you, you touched on the other thing that I think is one of the other common misconceptions. And this does come back to, you know, that salesperson wants to get paid. And I think sometimes, you know, people in buying positions, and this isn't just in, you know, buying software for credit unions. I mean, this is going shopping for a new car. We just, we don't like to let somebody down. We don't want to tell [00:46:00] them we're not picking you. We don't want to hurt their feelings. And so I think sometimes, you know, people involve potential vendors in the process for too long. And it's one of the reasons why we've actually started doing recently and, you know, hopefully anyone who hears this can understand the intent behind this. We don't participate in evaluations without an initial discovery call directly with the credit union. I want a solid hour to sit down and just talk to you. And to your point, let's see if we just get along for starters. You know, if the sound of my voice drives you nuts while we're about to sign a long-term commitment and I'm not going anywhere. So, you know, we got to get along. But again, I want to ask why. I want to understand some things about you and then vice versa. I want you to ask questions of me and I want you to understand if I'm even going to be right for you. I have absolutely no problem being told no, especially when it's well articulated. You can tell me your why. This is why we're doing this. This is what we're looking for. This is what we [00:47:00] need. And you can articulate to me why we don't fit into that. I love it. That's fantastic. That is a squared away organization that knows what they're doing. I want to see them supported. I'll even be the first one to tell you, "Hey, I know my competition halfway, decently. I'd be happy to tell you who I think might be right for you. I will politely bow out of this because I don't think I can give you what you're looking for. I'm okay with that." But be blunt. Ask those blunt questions upfront. Be really upfront about these are our deal breakers. These are the things that are really important to us. Be able to articulate those well, have those conversations early, because when I say things like, "We're not going to respond to your RFP if we don't get a discovery call", it's not because I'm trying to say, "Well, I don't want to waste my time with you unless I'm pretty sure I'm going to win your business and your money." That's not it at all. I don't want to waste your time either.
[00:47:49] Shaun Murray: Yeah.
[00:47:50] Josh DeTar: Right. Especially at a small to medium-sized credit union. There are probably not people on staff whose job is just to constantly be [00:48:00] doing digital banking evaluations. It's somebody who's got a day job who's doing this on the side. I don't want to waste their time. Again, I want your credit union to flourish. I want you to be successful. I want you to focus on being an awesome credit union, not wasting a ton of time talking to digital banking vendors that aren't going to build you up and support your mission. And if I'm not going to be the right one for you, I don't want to waste your time. I don't want to make you sit through that 10 demos of mine that you're falling asleep on. Right. So don't be afraid to tell us no, don't be afraid to say we're not including you.
[00:48:34] Shaun Murray: Right. Yeah. It, yeah, no, I, I agree. It's we, you know, commend you and your team for, for taking that stance. We haven't got quite there yet, but I do say that one, one thing, when a credit is looking at us, as you know, I fly out personally to that credit union for initial meeting, immediately. And that is to do the same thing that you just mentioned, which is just sort of to define what it is they're [00:49:00] looking for, make sure we get along. And I, I mean that, of course, in a, can we communicate? What is the vibe of the credit union? You know, the, the management team, the staff and then see if the, you know, that has to be both ways. I mean, they might meet me and be like, "Oh Shaun. We don't really like him." That's okay. You know, that happens. And like, like to your point is just, let's, let's figure it out that as soon as possible and move on or continue forth in a positive manner. You know, with what we do, you know, as we've talked about due diligence and relationship in the initial scope of what's wanted, you know, it's, it's one of those things as, as we circle all the way back to what you'd asked me initially, which was what should a credit union really do when doing due diligence? Or why should they, and what should they think about? Well, I got another one. And that is come [00:50:00] to a demonstration, understanding what it is you want out of it. Because for example, I would say in a lot of technology companies in our space, but specifically on the high-level, you know, the digital banking, the cores and things like that, it is hard to unravel 20-some years, or 10, or whatever of, of a program in 50 minutes. I, if you, if you don't have an idea of what you want, unless you're going to give four hours, which nobody wants to do, including the person who's giving the demo is come to the table with what high-level things you want. But then, you know, just like we talked about in the beginning with understanding what's important to you, service, support, whatever the case, price, don't at the end of it, through the process, all of a sudden say, "Well, I [00:51:00] didn't see this in there." Well, because we didn't talk about it. We didn't, that wasn't an area we talked about in the 50 minutes or whatever it was we had. I think sometimes there's a lack of direction and understanding what is actually wanted in the vendor solution program, whatever the case may be. It's not hard to figure out every, there's many different companies in our space that do similar things. You're more than likely using one of them right now. Like, so, you know, what do you, what are the 10 things that you must have?
[00:51:33] Josh DeTar: I love that you say that, you know, I have a very real example from just last week. Halina on my team was working with someone and they reached out and said, "Hey, you know, we're kind of coming down to the final stages of this." And, actually think they've done a really phenomenal job of the due diligence. They've had lots of peeling back of the layers and things. And, I think how they've arrived at the point that they have has been really well thought out. But they made a funny comment that just [00:52:00] made us rethink how we do things. And they said, you know, we, we S "We're, we're kind of getting there and we were early like you guys, but man, one of the vendors showed us this in a demo and we didn't see that from you." And that was just, that was kind of a big deal, and Halina laughed. And she was like, "No, we thousand percent have that. We actually have a really, really cool of that. Let me show it to you." And they were like, "Wow, why didn't you show us that?" I'm like, "Well, 'cause we only had so much time and quite frankly, we didn't think it was that cool." But apparently it was the coolest thing since sliced bread to the credit union. So, you know, each vendor is going to approach their, especially initial demos, potentially vastly different. And what I may show in the way I may show it may be totally different than one of my competitors. And it doesn't mean one of us is right, and one of us is wrong. It's just how we present our solutions or how we think puts us in the best light. But, you know, the point that was made here is that sometimes what we think isn't what they think. So when we have a way better understanding going in, knowing this is what's [00:53:00] really important to you. And if we known, you know, this feature was really important, I was not great at, they didn't know what it was until they sought somewhere else. Right. But, if we go into it knowing, then I may show you some obscure. If they're like, "Hey, this is the coolest thing ever." It's this buried sub-menu piece that nobody will ever get to, but we thought it was awesome. Oh, w we totally do that too. Or we do it better, but I would, it's a buried sub-menu functionality. I just never would've gotten to that in a 45 minute demo.
[00:53:28] Shaun Murray: Right, right. A hundred percent. And, and they were in, they did the right thing. And I would assume that it's partially because of the way you probably approach that potential partnership is they ask the question. Right. Because so often the credit union doesn't ask the question. They are like keeping the notes saying, "These are the three things I saw. Do you have it?" You know. And coming back and we'd like, "We do. Yes, we do have that." Like you. I just, yeah. I think that, that's spectacular. And I think that more credit unions should make sure that they're asking those questions.
[00:53:59] Josh DeTar: Yeah. That's [00:54:00] exactly it. We were like, "That's really cool. That was awesome. Thank you for giving us an opportunity instead of just saying, Oh, I guess they don't have that." So come back and say, "Hey, we saw this." And you know what? Maybe my answer is no we don't, but that's, that is actually pretty cool. We could add that to our roadmap. Or, you know, I make the comment probably more times than I should but, I feel like I get some additional leeway here as a dad now. Right now I get to dad joke Claus.
[00:54:24] Shaun Murray: On.
[00:54:26] Josh DeTar: But, you know, features are replicatable. They really are. It's just software. It's just a bunch of ones and zeros. You can build anything your competitors have built. Your competitors can build anything that you built. The question isn't, you know what you've built to a certain degree, but it's why you built it the way you did. And, you know, how do you approach building new things? And so, you know, when you come to me and say, "Hey, we saw this feature. Is that something that is replicatable? Yes or no in your platform?" So sometimes the answer is no. Absolutely. But that's something you [00:55:00] should know. And that'll probably tell you a lot about how that platform works too. So I encourage you to go the other way. You see something cool in our demos, go ask our competitors that they do it. If they can't then yeah, it's probably a table stakes thing that we all should probably be doing and they just haven't gotten to it yet. Or they prioritize something else differently.
[00:55:17] Shaun Murray: Correct.
[00:55:17] Josh DeTar: And if the answer is no, that probably tells you some very serious technological, competitive advantage that we may have, or lack.
[00:55:26] Shaun Murray: Right. Or, and I would, you're a hundred percent. Right. And I would also say on the relationship level. The fact that you, or whoever may say no is also telling in the sense that they're being honest. Because as we indicated, as you indicated initially, the salesman's going to tell you whatever you want to hear. This is historically going back generations vapor where's the thing. And if you're honest as a salesperson, as a company to the credit union upfront and say, "No, we do not have that. However, that's a good idea. [00:56:00] And we should look at that and have a conversation about making sure that happens." Building features is not, it's not easy, but it's those things that you can put in place, talk about round table and then implement. It is ones and zeros. They take time, but it is ones and zeros. And I say, there's a lot behind a know that people don't give enough credit to. Yeah. A lot of companies say yes to everything and then magically don't have it sometimes.
[00:56:34] Josh DeTar: Yeah, I mean, it's important to be able to say no. And then talk through that. And it does, I think it shows some vulnerability and some transparency. In long-term relationships those are things you want.
[00:56:50] Shaun Murray: Right.
[00:56:51] Josh DeTar: You know, all of this that we've talked about, kind of culminates to one of the other things that you mentioned very, very early on. Which [00:57:00] is, you know, conversions don't necessarily have to be painful if you've done your due diligence and you've built the relationship both pre and post-sales. So maybe talk to me a little bit about your thoughts there.
[00:57:14] Shaun Murray: Yes. I, you know, technology, everyday advances. And, with technology, as if you're a credit union presidents and you've been a president in the seat for 20 years, and you've been through a conversion or two, I can guarantee you that technology has advanced to a point now where the manual labor in a conversion should not be what it was then. And I mean then as in a year, two years ago, definitely not five or ten. And you know, the conversion, with programs and software and all of that does not, not only have to be manual, but the core vendor [00:58:00] in what we do should be doing most of it. And so the, the painful part in the past has always been manual. That with what we do, that's always been what it is, a hundred percent of the time. There's certainly fear that somehow, you know, money's going to be missing or whatever, and that just doesn't happen because you get files. But, you know, the, the converting vendor should be taking all of the proper steps to make sure that you're not negatively impact as far as time, as much as possible because you still have to run a credit union. So, you know, we are very, very, very cautious of that. We, and I think every company should be doing everything they can to take all the work possible off the credit union's desk. That's what it's been, when I say painful, that's 99% of the time when it's always come down to is, is painful because I had to do all this work. I didn't put in enough time on it 'cause I didn't expect it. [00:59:00] The reality is any more. Really what you need to do is train on a system which again you're using today. You know. You go to a screen and take funds in and put checks in deposit to an account has post, like the screen may look different, but I can guarantee you it's pretty close to the same thing.
[00:59:20] So training generally is not too terribly difficult. Back office not withstanding. Sometimes that's a more complicated, but not unsurmountable. You have smart people working on it. And I think that the painful part of a conversion, if we strip out the manual part is not painful. It's, it's not. I mean, there's a data closed, you know, sometimes and people switch over to a new system and they have to answer questions to members. Well, we made an advancement because if you're not going backwards, you wouldn't have made the decision. So, you know, we're trying to progress with you and meet your expectations. And [01:00:00] that could be because you chose partners because they want to partner with vendors. Or, they have a bunch of in-house systems you like. I just, when I hear that, I don't want to go through, through a conversion because it's painful, I really want to sit down with someone for 10 minutes and explain to them and better understand what they mean by that. Because a lot of times I feel like it's this and it's rightfully so, but it's like this foreign in the back of their head from something they did 20 years ago. And I'm telling you it's different. It's not the same. And you know, if the credit union is unhappy for one reason or another, with regards to any vendor, any partnership they have, they should be doing due diligence to talk about getting out of that because it's not worth it. You wouldn't do it in your personal life. I was unhappy with a certain cell phone provider and made the switch because they made my head hurt. I have a credit and she did the same thing. She didn't go on forever.
[01:00:59] Josh DeTar: [01:01:00] Oh my favorite sayings of all time is, don't reward vendors for bad behavior, especially if that vendor's me.
[01:01:07] Shaun Murray: Totally. That's a good point. Look at you. Life lessons.
[01:01:10] Josh DeTar: We're trying,
[01:01:14] You know, speaking of lessons, I may think that's, that's really the, the overall message of today. Do your due diligence, and don't be afraid to get your hands dirty. Don't be afraid to put the vendor through the ringer. The right ones will come out clean. They'll make your implementation process smoother. They'll make your go live smoother and they'll make for a better relationship long term.
[01:01:38] Shaun Murray: Yeah. And man, find out if the cred, find out if the vendor you're working with loves credit unions and loves the philosophy, because if you have that value, you're going to find out real quick. Like it's, you know, I don't, I personally, I don't want to see, I don't want to see any less credit unions in the space and I'll do whatever I possibly can to make sure that does not happen. [01:02:00] Anything. So, you know, we, we, and, and I would help any vendor, any other credit and others, it doesn't matter. Like I don't want to see mergers and acquisitions. I don't like it.
[01:02:14] Josh DeTar: No, I mean, we believe in this for a reason.
[01:02:17] Shaun Murray: Yes.
[01:02:17] Josh DeTar: And that reason is we believe that community FIs provide true intrinsic value to the communities that they serve.
[01:02:25] Shaun Murray: A hundred percent.
[01:02:27] Josh DeTar: That credit union down the street could be servicing my neighbor. They could be servicing my best friend. I want to see them taking care of, and supported. So, I'm gonna do everything in my power to provide the credit unions in our communities the amazing technology. So to your point, they stick around.
[01:02:44] Shaun Murray: Yeah, yeah. And Yeah. Some things have changed in the 25 years I've been doing this, but I still firmly believe that the majority of credit unions believe all of that. It's not all of them. And I, you know, I wouldn't be [01:03:00] sitting here today if I didn't believe in it and I can still continue to do everything I can. So.
[01:03:05] Josh DeTar: That's awesome. Well, 25 years of experience in this industry Shaun, where do you go to stay up-to-date on what's happening and how do you stay learning after that 25 years here?
[01:03:16] Shaun Murray: Yeah. Well, to be honest with you Josh, I do, I, I, I read the trade magazines a little bit. But I actually get a lot of my information from my industry peers, yourself included, and my clients and other credit unions. I do a lot of phone calls and just ask, "Well, what's going on?" Because, w we with, since we're spread out like most vendors in our space throughout the country and other countries, it just changes. I mean, one small town in the middle of Wisconsin is far different from a larger town, a hundred miles away, in Wisconsin. So we, I do a lot of, of Q&A with, with credit unions. I just call and see how things are going, what is, what's going on. But I would say trade magazines, your [01:04:00] occasional social blurb on LinkedIn, or, you know, the, the Twitters of the world. I look a lot on that but, I, I view that quite a bit now. So, which
[01:04:12] Josh DeTar: That's quickly becoming a common answer.
[01:04:15] Shaun Murray: Yeah, no. I, I found it not long ago and I find it to be quick, easy, and relevant. So I like it.
[01:04:23] Josh DeTar: That's awesome. You know, one of the things that I really, really respect about you Shaun, I don't know if you've ever heard me say this, so maybe now it's as good a time as any, is that's why I know that you have such great out-of-office reminders, it's 'cause I get them a lot, 'cause you're always out and about talking to your customers. And and that's something that I really appreciate about you and respect about you.
[01:04:43] Shaun Murray: I appreciate that. Yeah. I think that's way to do it.
[01:04:47] Josh DeTar: Last, but not least. If anybody wants to learn more about you, your company and what you do or connect with you, how can they do that?
[01:04:53] Shaun Murray: Yeah. So I would say first and foremost, go to espsolution.net. You can [01:05:00] email me directly at smurrayespsolution.net, or give me a ring. And, and that's all on the website. But, you know, I think, again, I we're, I, I really just appreciate your time. I think that due diligence is what we've talked about majority of the time here. I, I cannot stress enough that I wish all credit unions, including our clients, do their due diligence so that the decisions they make are proper for the credit union for today, five, ten years down the road. Things change. Those things will change, but be comfortable in the decisions you're making today. And don't just get caught up in, I got within the con you know, the renewal windows. Like that just frustrates me. I want everyone to win. That's it. And there's plenty of room out there for all of us to win.
[01:05:59] Josh DeTar: [01:06:00] Totally agree. Well Shaun, thank you so much for joining the Digital Banking Podcast. Thank you for the insight and the thoughts on a specifically "Do you due diligence?" I love it. It's good stuff.
[01:06:12] Shaun Murray: I appreciate it. Appreciate your time.
[01:06:14] Josh DeTar: Yeah. Have a great rest of your day.
[01:06:15] Shaun Murray: All right. Thanks, Josh.