Patterns & Paradigms | The Pattern Podcast
Patterns & Paradigms | The Pattern Podcast
Patterns & Paradigms | Episode 012: Reshaping New York's Workforce with Melinda Mack
We're talking about reshaping New York's workforce. The pandemic has greatly impacted our labor market, shifting from not enough workers to not enough jobs in just a few short months. It has accelerated technology, changing the landscape of the office environment to a virtual world, and shone a light on the impacts of low wages and paid leave, as well as the importance of childcare to workers. How do we address unemployment post-pandemic and prepare our workforce for jobs of the not-so-distant future? How do we reshape New York's labor market?
This week's episode features Melinda Mack, Executive Director at New York Association of Training & Employment Professionals (NYATEP). NYATEP is New York's statewide workforce development membership association committed to providing voice, knowledge and accelerating progress in the field of workforce development in New York State.
We are experiencing a paradigm shift, a fundamental change in the way we usually do things. We are intentionally choosing to see the silver lining opportunity arises. We can shine a light on the things that weren't working well on those things that weren't really working at all, we can regroup reevaluate and re-engineer it's time to explore new patterns and paradigms those that inspire us to rise above the chaos and explore how the conditions of today and take us to a better tomorrow patterns and paradigms the pattern podcast from Hudson Valley pattern for progress. You're listening to episode 12, reshaping new York's workforce with your host pattern, president and CEO, Jonathan Dropkin.
Speaker 2:Hi everyone. And welcome to this week's episode of patterns and paradigms. Of course, if you have any questions or comments about our podcast, please send them to Pat and for progress.org/podcast. And please remember to subscribe bailable on Apple, Amazon music, Spotify, Google tune-in and Stitcher in this week's pattern and paradigms trend or bubble. We are looking at ridership on the subways and rail lines. Subways in some places are near 50% of pre pandemic levels. Lower income workers must return to this form of transportation at the hubs that connect with the rail lines such as grand central station and 34th street, Harold square levels are just at 20% of their pre pandemic numbers. This is a good indicator as to how much ridership has fallen on the rail lines and that with people working from home and also being fueled by the current uptick in the virus, people, once again are leery of going back onto Metro North on long Island railroad with the distribution of the vaccine. What will the new normal before commuting? We say the equilibrium is somewhere between staying home and going back to the office five days a week. The change in the level of ridership presents all kinds of challenges for commuters. The upside is an increased quality of life. Give people back a few hours a day to be at home, but then what happens to the financial stability of commuter lines? If large numbers of people don't need to go every day, stay tuned as an already fiscally challenged metropolitan transportation authority tries to sort this one out before we get to our guests. Let's ask Joe Cheika what's up Joe, to find out what's happening in pattern's world. Good afternoon, Jonathan. Hey Joe,
Speaker 3:We've been working on this study up in Ulster County in a very rural rural County in the Northern part of our region. And I wanted to touch on a few elements of the challenges faced by Ulster County in terms of housing. And you know, it really doesn't matter what County we're working in. There's a number of challenges in terms of housing and affordable housing, regardless of location. And I've been harping on this subject, not just because I've been doing it for over 30 years and not just because patterns created the center for housing solutions in an effort to move the dial on this incredibly complex issue. I harp on it because we're in the middle of a pandemic and the pandemic is actually showing the light on who we call our central workers. And as you know, these are the folks who count on every day are teachers and nurses are bus drivers and dry cleaners or retail workers or mechanics and Cooksey, waitstaff, and truck drivers. Many of those folks are eligible to live in what we term as affordable housing, or there's a number of them who may not quite qualify for the affordable housing inventory, but they don't make enough to meet the rent rates of, uh, of market rate housing. So they're sort of stuck in the middle. They're considered moderate income, and they're very much in danger of losing their housing. Just as much as, as low income families. There's a number of big challenges to solve these very complex issues in providing affordable housing for these folks is difficult last week I pointed out. So here's a few more, you know, I mentioned the high cost of land, the high cost of labor materials and taxes. That's just an appetizer. If you will, in this seven course problem, I want to focus on insufficient local incentives and a lack of state and federal subsidies and grants to build affordable housing, a major tool to develop rental housing is something called Lytec, which stands for the low-income housing tax credit program. This program came out probably around 1986, 1987 during the Reagan administration. And it's been under scrutiny ever since. It's probably the most critical program for housing development, but it's cumbersome. And it's very expensive. In fact, per unit costs in the Hudson Valley is somewhere around$325,000 in the Mid-Hudson to well over 425,000 per unit in Westchester County, regardless of the issues with the low-income housing tax credit program, it's a vital part of the developer's toolbox to build housing. In order to build these complexes, developers create something called the capital stack, otherwise known as lasagna financing. Many of the deals are five, six, seven, or more different sources of financing. It gets very, very cumbersome again and very expensive. Do you know other ways of getting these developments built?
Speaker 2:No, Joe, I would have thought that you could probably tell me about it. And I always thought when you were talking about lasagna financing, that this was some,
Speaker 3:You know, uh, culinary
Speaker 2:Delight, but actually it's highlighted
Speaker 3:Complex. It is highly highly complex. This state of New York is as complex as any other state when it comes to housing and to secure state and federal resources, towns, villages, and cities must be willing to be very supportive of the development, not just nice little letter from the chief elected official or the planning or zoning board. I'm talking about real commitment, donating land for new construction, donating buildings for adaptive reuse. And there's three other things I want to talk about that everybody just kind of screws in their chair. When you say them tax relief, you know, a pilot payment in lieu of taxes, but dirty word, always going to raise an eyebrow density bonus. That's another one streamlined approval process without these three, a developer is essentially done. The municipality would be viewed as friendly toward development. If those three are not satisfied to some degree who suffers again, back to the essential workers, the people we count on every day. Let me talk briefly a little bit more about the streamlining of a government process in the approval process for housing, regardless if we are looking at a housing development or an economic development project, the need to implement something I'd like to call a green tape program, as opposed to red tape takes a number of things it is designed to facilitate faster and less costly expedite items, such as permitted public approval, special use environmental review infrastructure installation of other necessary processes. All goes a long way. You know, green tape program. This could also include waiving local fees, which gets back to the local commitment issue. All this in the aggregate helps reduce costs to build and to the end game of lowering the cost to the renter or the homeowner, remember predictability and certainty for a developer is everything. So that's just some of the background information that we've been touching on in Ulster County. And again, this study could be done in Greene County or Columbia County or Westchester County. It's all the same.
Speaker 2:It depends upon who is really working every day in those counties to move these projects ahead. And how can we help them? Thanks, Joe. I think the insight into the complexity of actually getting these projects approved, no people say they can't find housing. I think this is a really good snapshot as to why it is so complex. So thanks Joe, for being with us. You're very welcome. Let me now introduce our guests this week. Melinda Mac, the executive director of the New York state association of training and employment professionals also known as Nyah. Nyah tap has membership in all 62 counties of New York state. Melinda has been in this position for nine years. Part of her career also includes serving on the New York city workforce investment board, turning the great recession. We're excited to talk to this Buffalo native about rebuilding the workforce as we navigate our way through the pandemic and the economic disruption, Naya tab also released in September report a new way forward bold actions to reshape new York's labor market, which Belinda will also be discussing hi Melinda, and welcome to patterns and paradigm. Um, how you doing in the pandemic?
Speaker 4:Oh, it's so good to see you, Jonathan. Thank you for the lovely introduction. Um, I'm doing all right. I mean, I think I was saying to someone the other day, it feels like one of those roller coasters, right? Where you have this moment where you're like, this is horrible. How are we going to make it through? And then you kept resolve and you say, we're going to do this. It's great. We're buckling down. And then you slide back into the, this is terrible. How are we going to do it? I am currently in that. This is great. We can make it through. We're almost there moment. Um, and you know, I think the good news is, is my three small children have become quite adept to navigating the pandemic is so much so that they even play with, with masks, with their little dolls. They've made them for their dolls. Um, cause they're so worried about their health and safety. So I think we're doing all right.
Speaker 2:Well, that's an ad. Thank goodness. Um, and how, I mean, how small, I mean, or is this also the, the parent issue of, you know, are they in any of them in school and therefore, are they learning virtually online? And
Speaker 4:Yeah, so I have three kids. I have a nine-year-old I have a seven-year-old and a four-year-old and all three are virtual learners this year and Godspeed to the teachers who have really done a stellar job. Um, of course there's a lot as parents to try to manage attention, spans the snap ratio and keeping people connected to the work they need to get done. Um, but also, you know, for young adults in particular, when you're thinking about my nine year old, he needs, he needs like the stimulation of being around friends. So we've sort of gotten to a spot where we figured out how to do virtual play dates, um, to allow, you know, my son to talk about Pokemon and stuff that I don't want to talk about with them for hours on end. Well, I hope it manages to go, well, I, I assume this is still gonna be an issue throughout the school year, especially here in New York state schools are open, then the virtual they're open the virtual and every school district is different. And until the vaccine catches up, it's going to be a roller coaster for awhile. Yeah. And in reality, everyone, every family had to make a decision that worked best for them and their personal situation. Um, and for us, it just made sense to be fully virtual. Um, but again, I can't complain. We have the resources, you know, we have, we can afford broadband, we can do all of the things that we need to do to make sure that our kids can stay connected. I certainly worry for the families who are struggling to make ends meet and struggling to be able to have enough time to be able to support their kids through this because you're no fault of their own. I think it is going to be a challenge and we're going to see some educational gaps coming out of her, for sure. Absolutely. So let's, let's plunge into our conversation and you are the head of Naya tech and I've been cautioned many times about the fact that I use, uh, initials. And, um, so why don't you explain what Naya stands for, what your organization does and how long you've been there? Sure. So Naya tech has also known as the New York association of training and employment professionals where the state's workforce development association. And so our membership serves around one and a half million new Yorkers each year, uh, with education, job training and employment based services. Um, they range from economic development agencies to community based organizations, to local workforce career centers and workforce boards to the huge network of community based organizations across the state that do this work every day with new Yorkers and with employers. Um, I've been here for about over nine years now. So turning to Crested the 10 year Mark, which is pretty wild, we get you a jacket at 10 years. Where's my gold watch. Um, but it's, it's pretty wild, especially considering what's happened in the last 10 years. Right. It's my first weekend on the job was hurricane Sandy. Um, and we've sort of like managed all the way through, um, to government shutdowns, um, coming out of massive recessions, the highest economic time, um, in the country to now, which is some of the worst times in the country. And so it's been interesting to see that ride, but, um, I think I'm also very fortunate to have had this experience as a leader, um, in terms of the organization, but also in the workforce sector as well. So if, if you go back nine years, then you're also starting just as we're coming out of the great recession. So you've been through the ups and downs of unemployment rates, and I thought that'd be an interesting place for us to dive into the discussion, which is so prior to the pandemic, I didn't know a sector working in economic development that wasn't saying, I can't
Speaker 2:Find people and now most, not all some, you know, it's very uneven, but there are some people say I can't find anybody what happened and how did it change? I get that there was a pandemic, but it's more, there's more unpacking to do as to what has occurred here.
Speaker 4:Well, and to your point before, I've seen a lot in this, this is obviously not my first job either, right? So I worked at CUNY before that and ran the New York state workforce board, uh, at the beginning of the last recession. And so it's, it's interesting when you compare sort of the two, um, just really how dynamically different they are in terms of their structure, in terms of who's been dislocated from the labor market, um, the government response, all of that, there's been a lot of things that have not been even close to similar in terms of the last recession, this recession. Um, I will say that just because unemployment rates went through the roof, it didn't fix the skills gap, right. You know, 42% of new Yorkers have a high school diploma or less. Um, we also know that jobs took a dip in terms of their pay over the last decade. Um, so when your fastest growing occupations across the state pay$32,000 a year or less, it's tough to convince people to go and take a job that doesn't make a ton of money that you potentially doesn't feel safe, um, at the height of a pandemic. But also when you're balancing things like having kids who are doing virtual or remote school, where at any given day they could be sending everybody home because there's an outbreak, right? So I say that to say, I think there's a bunch of different downward pressures focus there that workers are facing and sort of struggling with right now. The one thing I will say is I do not think the pandemic unemployment assistance, which is that extra$600, um, that was added on to unemployment assistance is part of a federal package through the cares act. I don't think that necessarily was what was dissuading people from going back to work. Um, I think, again, there's a notion that, you know, you make more money on unemployment insurance, like your unemployment insurance, um, is basically, you know, tagged to whatever you're making in terms of your regular pay. So if you're making minimum wage, you're not getting the maximum UI benefit, it does not pay to be on unemployment assistance. And so I say that to say that, I think for me, this is a moment in time for us to really take a look at the types of jobs that we're developing. I know we've talked about this a bit. Like what jobs are we recruiting here? What kind of businesses do we have? What kind of benefits are there, but also how are we actually thinking strategically around up-skilling the workforce? So we have a higher skill set of workers who can better connect to employment. The last thing I will add is when you look at the labor market data, we know from the last recession, from the recession prior, um, people who have a high school diploma or less fair, the worst in the labor market when it comes to recovery. Um, and in fact, many folks who had a high school diploma or less who were laid off or lost their jobs in the last recession have not recovered, have been unable to reconnect to any stable or long-term employment. And so for me, I look the fact that again, we've got 42% of new Yorkers with a high school diploma or less evidence would say, we need to move a bigger chunk of those people out of that bucket so that they can actually connect to higher skill, higher wage jobs. Um, because for the most part, the recession in many ways is over for people who've been able to work remotely from home. We're just dealing with the pandemic. It's the lower school, new Yorkers folks who are in lower skill employment, lower wage employment that are still going to be struggling through this recession for quite some time.
Speaker 2:Well, that raises an interesting point because it's roughly a third, a third, a third. So a third of high school graduates go to a four year college. It varies in different parts of the state, a third go to a two-year college. And for roughly a third high school is the end of the line for formal education. Now friends in higher education would say, and I think your data points suggest we've got you. Do you fare better with more education? And yet I wonder as we come out of the pandemic and we're thinking about retooling workforce and skills gap and things, is it that we need to get more people to higher education, or is it that we need to get them from, you know, food to table from high school to a job? And that the wa is it both, is it one, what should we be thinking about,
Speaker 4:Well, I appreciate that you've thought about this in pathways. Um, but also it's important to remember that every pathway doesn't work for every person, right? Um, my economic situation now that I am almost 40 with three little kids, if I needed to stop out to get education, my situation is very different than when I was 18 and making a decision to go to a state school. Right. And so I, I say that to say, I think we have to have multiple ways that people can access good paying jobs and the skills that they need to be successful in obtaining a better job. And I think that there's a few pathways. I think obviously the, both these programs are an incredible set of resources. Um, they tend to focus far more on credentials and credential beasts, skilling and upskilling. I think we need to do more about connecting people who have prior learning experience. So say you were in the military for a decade and you didn't go to college, but you have a high school diploma when you leave the military, that should count towards something. You should be able to accelerate your access to higher education and connect to good paying jobs because your credentials from the military don't always translate to credentials in the workplace. Right. Um, and I think lastly, we have to be in this situation where we are really thinking about preparation of people who are heading to community college and the wraparound supports that are necessary so that more people complete. So although a third in your sort of rough estimate may go to community college or go to four year institutions. They're not graduating. And in some ways, if you go to school and you don't graduate, it mean anything. Um, very few times, do you see on a resume some college and you think, yep. That person's got what I need for the job, right. What I know is SUNY and CUNY are talking a lot about how do you embed micro credentials into those pathways so that if you do have to step out of your education, whether it's for economic reasons or for others, you are actually leaving with something that is a demarkation or a sort of a note that says you've achieved something that you have a skill or credential that's valuable in the labor market. I think those are really important steps to be able to increasing the volume of people who can afford and actually connect to skills that are relevant in the labor market.
Speaker 2:So when maybe you can help me understand this. So I guess I'm a little bit older than you. And when I was in high school, the guidance counselor was where you went. When you got in trouble today, guidance counselors. I think their model is for my children. Their primary function was how do we figure out what you're going to do next? And yet there's two or three in a high school trying to figure this out for the entire graduating class. Is that really where we need to get into the, the discussion with the 1718 year olds? I don't know, is, are we not capturing them early enough to then say, here is the pathway you should choose. I quite agree, Melinda, that there are multiple pathways that the way we are, but is it high school level or it's at every level it's at the community college level? Are we not focusing enough on helping and preparing people for some pathway?
Speaker 4:I think it's less about preparing and more about communicating, um, what types of opportunities are even available in your region, right. I'm sure that there's been many times throughout your lifetime where you thought, huh? I didn't know that was a job. I might've liked like to do that job, right. Um, or, Oh, I didn't know. I could do this, you know, in my backyard, I didn't even know that there was a company who did these kinds of things, right? Um, your, your pathways are often dictated based on what you're exposed to. Um, and so pathways out of poverty are really important because what it means is, uh, early and often exposure to something different and better than what you're, you're already seeing and experiencing every day. Um, but also clear and explicit guidance and direction around how you do it and how you have support around you to be successful. And so, in some instances, that's, as far back as elementary school and other instances, it's high school, some instances it's a kid who's coming out of juvenile detention, right? Who's not connected to the school at all who needs guidance and support. So I really feel like, you know, putting this all on a K-12 district or on a guidance counselor who often has a caseload of 200 or 250 young adults, like it needs to be a much broader approach. Um, you know, not to do a shameless plug, but you know, Naya[inaudible] in conjunction with the investment New York campaign put out a report called the new way forward as a response to the pandemic. And one of the things that we included in the report was this need to actually have economic development really focus on the good jobs in your region and communicating those good jobs, just like we would go out to do talent attraction in North Carolina or in Texas, or in Florida to get people to come to New York state. There is a value in doing talent attraction within your own community and getting people better, connected and understanding the availability of really cool opportunities in your local labor market. Um, no one in my family is in the sector. No one in my family is involved in anything that is government related. Um, the only reason I'm in this sector is because I've found good Sherpas who helped me early on and had good internships that connected me to real work experience, um, which again is only something that business community can provide. And so it really has to be an all hands on deck approach. And the last thing I will say is it's not just young adults, it's everybody, because there are plenty of 58 year olds who are having to shift careers right now who need a new path who don't know what's available or out there for their skills and should be able to get into a good paying job because they have incredible sets of skills and abilities. Um, we hear employers say all the time like this, person's not job ready. They don't have any work experience. Well, if you have someone who's 58, who's got an incredible set of work experience. Why are we having trouble connecting those folks to the labor market? Right. So again, I think there's lots of opportunities for us to be much more creative and the business community has to be core to that.
Speaker 2:Well, so that's probably a good time to say for years, I believe that people looked at workforce development as the sort of stepchild of economic development it's Oh yeah. Okay. We can do some training or something, but that coming out of this, um, I would think we have to figure out how there's an equal seat at the table. This is just not going to work if economic development folks keep trying to attract jobs. But then, you know, one that I've recently been involved in is manufacturing where people are saying, well, wait a minute, I, I come to New York, but do you have a workforce? How do we, how do we lift the workforce development people that you work with every day? So that they're an equal seat at the table?
Speaker 4:You know, I think one of the things that, yes, first I totally agree with you. Um, and I think we're still viewed as, as, uh, sort of the, the second or third sibling down the line to this work or, or an afterthought in some instances. Uh, but I think part of it is valuing the fact that these are experts. These folks, this is not an art, this is more of a science. Um, and the folks who are coming to the table are experts in this work. Um, often what we hear is, well, I can do that. And so we see other organizations trying to take on the role of workforce development, unsuccessfully, or doing what to be honest, it's quite easy to do. Um, recruiting higher, skilled, higher, um, sort of higher in demand talent for the labor market, right? It's not as hard to connect someone with a high school diploma or excuse me, with a baccalaureate or master's degrees to employment. It is much harder to connect someone who is in their late thirties, early forties, who's been on off public assistance, may have a criminal record and multiple children to a career pathway. And so I think part of this too, is just taking a giant step back and having a conversation across regions and across communities around coming out of this pandemic, what has to look different in order for our economy to function better for everybody who lives here. Um, and a recognition that, again, I grew up in Buffalo, like I've spent my entire life listening to the silver bullets. That's going to save downtown Buffalo, right? It's going to save the city. I think some folks might say, it's been saved through bills are doing fine this year. I know it only took a global pandemic for the winning team. Um, but I think at the same time, if you drive down Broadway or Clinton or others, like there's still a lot of work to do on the East side of Buffalo or on the West side of Buffalo. Right? So there are a lot of people who are not benefiting from this progress. Um, and so I say all that to say, having a workforce at all my community at the table is really important because it changes the types of questions you ask about what problems you're trying to solve. If you're just trying to increase the tax base. That is one set of questions. If you're trying to make sure you have an equitable economic recovery, that's a different set of questions and a different set of data you need to include in your decision-making process. Um, and the last thing I will say is like all systems need to change as a result of this pandemic. And it doesn't mean the work that everyone did 20 years ago was the best or the worst. It just means it's different now. And so part of this is also getting out of the habit of saying, you don't do your job. You don't do your job. You don't do your job. When in reality, we all have to shift how we do our jobs now, because things are going to be different, uh, post pandemic. And so I think the finger pointing stuff is, is really difficult. And I see a play on the ground in local communities when folks sort of say like, well, if they only, the K-12 system had more high school graduates, we'd be better when it's really a community-based problem.
Speaker 2:You know, I, I serve on the mid Hudson's regional economic development council and, you know, spend, have been there since its inception. And it seems to me that part of build back better. Um, I keep trying to think that as long as governor Cuomo's here, we're going to have these regional economic development councils. So when there's a good place for a seat at the table, and like some representative from workforce should be sitting there when we're talking about strategies and ideas for, you know, uh, attracting jobs to the mid Hudson. And you're probably more well versed than I'm Melinda in terms of other regions in New York state. But that seems a good place to be able to have the voice of, um, you know, the organizations you work with through Naya tap really at that table. And I think they are sort of, but they're through other organizations, not by name, they're not important
Speaker 4:Or just community colleges or four year institutions. Right. Right. And so, and again, depending on where you live, um, the engagement of the workforce system on the local or regional RDC is different. Um, I think some of it's just based on personalities and longevity in the community, that kind of thing. However, to your point, um, we often sort of have like a token workforce person that's represented by a four year institution or a community college. You know, I often attend things where they're like, well, corner Cornell university, um, is representing the voice of the work, the workforce element sector. I think Cornell really, you know, again is a wonderful institution. They do a ton of good work, especially when it comes to some of the work we do and workforce related to ag and ag and markets and others. But they do not necessarily represent, you know, folks who are disconnected or unable to get a leg up in the workforce sector in the, in the labor market. So I say that to say, I think we need to think much more diversely about who's at a table generally. Um, but also again, when we think about equity, what voices need to be heard around the table, um, government and economic development, and in many cases of workforce development, like to tell people what they need or what they need to do, very rarely do we ask people what they need.
Speaker 2:So we need to be better listeners about this. And it seems to me, I think you're absolutely right. That you're spot on that. This is a, if ever there was a moment where there was a ability to reset what we're doing, this is it. And so I'm sure at Naya tap, you're thinking about this strategically, what are, what are we, you know, if you had your magic wand, what would be happening differently to have workforce top of mind and not like, Oh yeah, we got to think about putting people in that thing we just attracted.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I will. I will say a few things and I'm going again, make a shameless plug for that new way forward report. Because if you really looking through my like dream wishlist, that's that right? It's called a new way forward a bold actions to reshape new York's labor market. And it came out of the investment skills group. Uh, I think there's a few things that are top of mind for me. And again, I'm coming out of the school of Bloomberg. I worked in the Bloomberg administration. I very much, my brain was wrapped around that everything is 100% business and employer focused. That was the way that I was brought up in the system. I have to say, I'm shifting my thinking on that and have over the last couple of years, because it hasn't worked. Like if we're, if our expectation is that employers will always do the right thing. Um, one, I think we misunderstand capitalism, but two, I also think it's important for us to recognize that the role of government in particular is to provide solutions or intervene when the market is operating efficiently. It is not efficient to have 42% of your workers unable to move up in your labor market. It's just not. And so I think a couple of things that we're thinking about, um, one is really this concept of job quality. How do we make sure we're recruiting better employers and working with businesses who are sort of stuck in terms of changing or shifting or addressing some of their work-based issues, um, to become really good places to work. Um, I think I've mentioned to you before my family used to own a manufacturing firm, the manufacturing firm was made up of my, my family, all of my family of you left high school. You had to go work at this farm. Right? Um, my grandfather, wasn't giving my family once off of vacation or sick leave, right? Like he wasn't a great employer, his soul, but it goes back like it, folks didn't leave with a huge pension after they retired. Um, it wasn't a great place to work. And so it goes back to this like really thinking through, especially when we're thinking about supporting the small business community, how we're building our entrepreneurial activities, how are we embedding that we want to become the state that has the best businesses to work for in the, in the country. Like that would be incredible. The second is actually really understanding what it takes to move people out of poverty. Um, a couple of items that are in this report, um, are around income disregards and really thinking about how low wage workers are able to build their asset based. So they don't have to be wholly reliant on public assistance. When we talk to, to new Yorkers, when we talk to programs who are working directly with, with folks who are unemployed or longterm unemployed, or working two or three part-time jobs, to try to piece something together, one of their concerns is I can't one stop out of the labor market to go get training and not be paid during this time. I have kids to feed. I have likes to have to stay on, like, it's not possible to, if I do this thing and make two bucks more an hour, I might lose my heating subsidy. I might lose my food subsidy. Like that is insane because when you think about the short-term investment that we could make to allow people to keep some of their earnings in order to get ahead, it actually will dramatically reduce the overall caseload in New York because people will be able to transition off of public assistance faster. Um, I actually went back and read through the public assistance law in New York. And I was shocked at how few things you can save money for when you're on public assistance like that. You can say for your barrier burial plot, you can like ask permission to save for a car, but like you can't save for a course of high school equivalency course, you can't say like, unless you get rent permission. So it goes back to this, you know, we push for personal responsibility, but then we tie people's hands to being personally responsible. Um, and then the last thing that I will say is we have to be able to spend money on what people need and what businesses need when they need them. Again, when you have at this point over 5 million new Yorkers who have had some engagement with the unemployment insurance system, since the beginning of this pandemic, first of all, that isn't an enormous number of humans that are attached to unemployment insurance or a part of the system we have about 909 and a half million new Yorkers who are working that's close to it's more than half, right? Um, in reality, like not, everyone's going to need training. So if you pump the workforce system full of training money, we're not going to be able to spend it. Like, if I lost my job, I wouldn't need job training. I might need childcare. I might need a transportation subsidy. I might need someone to be able to cover my rent for a month, right? Like let's be flexible with what the dollars can be utilized for. So we can meet people where they're at versus forcing people or businesses to go through hoops that are unnecessary and don't actually solve the problem at hand. Uh, one last thing on the small business piece, I think the last thing I will say, and hopefully this is hitting a heartstring for you. We have not done enough to support the small business community through this pandemic. Um, the fact that businesses are having to make choices sort of despite health and safety restrictions or requirements, because they have no other option for income, or we can give them a loan versus a grant that's nuts. Like we need to think about a way to really support and subsidize our restaurant industry, our arts and culture industry industries that are, that are reliant on in-person close together. You know, people coming together, um, and provide those resources so that those folks can remain open post pandemic. Um, about half of employment in New York is in the small business community. And to be honest, they, they tend to be the place where our young adults get their first jobs. People who are formerly incarcerated, get their first job, an immigrant who can't necessarily fill out an online application for like Lowe's or home Depot, but can walk into a corner store and say, Hey, listen, I'm a really hard worker. Let me get a broom. I'll help you in the back. Right. They tend to be the first opportunity for many people. We can't eliminate that whole hiring base. And so those are my that's my wishlist of the few things that I would think would make the biggest impact.
Speaker 2:So there's, I think if we allowed you to Melinda, you could remake the world. So that would be good.
Speaker 4:My dad used to say, when we were kids, if he was King, that's too much responsibility.
Speaker 2:So I just had a conversation last week with a group of, uh, economic development people. And I get that their metric, their major metric for years was jobs created. And I said, if we build back better, do we then get to say, yeah, it's a job, but what are the wages? And, you know, I've often said to my board of directors that$15 an hour somehow strikes you the wrong way, but that's$30,000 a year. And I said, which one of you are ready to live on$30,000 a year? Could you do it? And you know, I think people have this, I know the small business, it's often the small business community that says we can't be mandated
Speaker 4:To do that. But for larger companies, then this led to an interest. Well, Jonathan, that's not fair because what if the company offers the very things you're talking about some childcare, maybe they offer transportation subsidy so that yes, there are some healthcare benefits. So the package is more than$15 an hour. So this led to a very interesting debate about whether or not$15 an hour. Cause last time I checked, unless it's cash, you don't have much discretion though. On the other hand, you should have been part of this Melinda, because I know you would have loved to weighed in on this. What do we do? How much do we overemphasize the debate about the minimum wage, Taking a deep breath here? Um, you know, I often lead these conversations specifically with the business community feeling like, you know, I want to like hit my head here because it is in your best interest to pay your employees better. And the hard part is, is like the margins of many employers are so slim for all sorts of other reasons. Like it's difficult for employers to do that. However, um, there are very few employers that I know of that 100% pay for the benefit package for their employees. Right. So great if you offer a great healthcare, but if you have to pay 300 bucks a month out of your paycheck for family coverage, and you're making 15 bucks an hour, like you're suddenly down to nine bucks an hour. Right? And so I think part of this is, is that to your point, I think what we measure has to change and we've talked briefly previously in the work that I did around college readiness and success for a long time, the metric in college was how many people got into college. It wasn't how many people completed. Right. And when you change the bar, the conversation changed because like, wait a second. If people aren't leaving, then what are we doing here? Right. I think the same thing needs to happen. I think in the economic and workforce development space, how do we come up with a different rubric or measures to understand what's the mix and diversity of types of employment opportunities in our, in our state and in our region. And how do we make sure we're sort of balancing that? I think there needs to be low wage jobs, middle wage jobs and high-wage jobs. Like that's how I economies are structured. It's important that being said, if we have a lot of people who are stuck in low wage work and can advance to middle-skill or higher skill or higher wage jobs, then we should be asking questions about why, why, if employers are unable to pay higher wages, we should be asking questions about why, why can't they pay higher wages? What is the constraint where I struggle? And again, I am not a lefty, Bernie Sanders person. I know it's going to come out and sound like it when I say this, but when I've had some conversations with employers, I've had employers who I know the CEO is making$500,000 a year and their frontline healthcare staff is making minimum wage and working variable, um, employment schedules, again, as economic development and workforce professionals. We should stake stop and pause and say, is that a business we want to incentivize? Um, because their workers are unable to actually produce or be connected to our economy in a way that makes all of us successful. So I think measures like the mix of full-time and part-time jobs, job retention. Like if there is an employer that has a super high turnover rate, that should be a red flag for us wages and wage growth over time, economic mobility, but also the employer's commitment to investing in reinvesting in their workforce, but also continuous improvement. Right? You look at a company like Optimax out in Ontario County, they are completely 100% workforce driven. They are by far one of the most successful companies in that region because they're their photonics manufacturer. And they primarily supply the defense industry with, you know, photonic equipment. That is as much as I know, it's very fancy stuff. Um, but again, it goes back to saying like, they've really thought about how do we actually create a model where we're continuously reinvesting in our employees. And when I was talking to the CEO recently, they may be moving to a hundred, like unlimited days off, unlimited days off. And most folks would be like, we can't even pay for sick time. Right. And they're saying, we're going to shift to unlimited days off because one, we trust our employees to, we know if they need it, they'll use it judiciously, but three, it's also a great recruitment tool and benefit. And so again, I think there's opportunities for us to really do so much more in terms of talent, attraction, and retention.
Speaker 2:And I think it's very interesting that, you know, you said you're not a lefty Bernie Sanders type, and I am clearly a diet in the wool centrist. And yet when I talk this way about what do we do to help workers, people go, you're all the way out there on the left. And I go, how did that happen? You know, and that's got probably more to do with the polarization in America that if you talk that way, but all we're trying to say is guys, if you don't help people now find their way to a better paying job that has benefits that has a career pathway. You're going to be paying for it later anyway, because they're going to need some other subsidy they're going to need help. So, um,
Speaker 4:One more thing on that, just one more thing. I think the other piece too, is it's, um, it, having spent some time overseas looking at workforce development, I want to get to that. Yeah. So what's interesting about that is like the different, um, mindset that business community has as it's their responsibility to in many ways, subsidize support and prop up the reeducation and continuous improvement of workers in their, in their society. So they pay a significant amount of money into this reeducation system and have a ton of control and handle on like what, what needs to happen, what needs to be done, who needs to be educated and train what the curriculum looks like, all of that, but it's just really different than what we have here. Instead, what we say is you are personally responsible for getting a good education and then somebody else will reap the benefit of your productivity. That feels wild to me like that. We signed up for this for like, I'm going to put out a hundred thousand dollars outlay so that you can become more profitable when in reality it should be much more of a shared model because that's how you end up paying down the cost of education much more quickly, but also ended up spreading the wealth in a way that allows for regional economies to thrive. When I drive through, I drive at this year, most years I drive between 30 and 35,000 miles a year through small communities. That even when I was a kid were thriving with downtowns, with shops, with retail, like people don't have money to go to those places. People don't have money to open up small businesses on main streets and Canada, Harry by way of example, right? Like we have to make sure that we keep wealth in communities because if we don't, they're not going to be able to reinvest in support local businesses. And so it goes back to this, it's like this virtuous cycle that somehow we, I don't know, we throw it on an end at some point in our history in the last hundred years. Um, and I think we just need to shift to really rethink what this model looks like and what the contract is between worker and employer. And I don't mean that in a union way.
Speaker 2:And even if, even if in some cases, if it is a union that helps get there, somehow it has to be part of a conversation in which you're Melinda, you and I, if we suggest these things are not labeled as therefore you're, you guys are all the way out there in the left end, it shuts down other people's ability to think about things differently. So one of the things, one of the threads I wanted to get back to is you did a trip to Germany were among the things you were looking at were apprenticeships. Maybe tell us why you went and what do they do?
Speaker 4:Oh, first of all, it was an incredible experience. I'm so grateful. I did it. It was about a year ago, actually. I think it was a year ago this week that I was there. We actually brought a joint delegation of new Yorkers and folks from Michigan to go learn specifically about their vocational education and training service or the go vet program. Uh, and we were really looking at how they have baked apprenticeship and lifelong learning into their, their model and their structure. Um, a couple of things that came up, um, and we just, we actually just did our own podcast in this. Um, we have a podcast called the future works where we recap the, a bit of this, the future works. Um, so one of the things that I thought was interesting about it though, is that because it is a market economy. So again, after the fall of, uh, world war II, the fall of Germany's from the rebuilding of Germany, same thing when the Berlin wall came down, did that they actually intentionally structured their economy as a market economy. And so it is not socialist by any, by any stretch, but there is a much bigger investment in terms of the business community, into the social service and social service structure within their economy. And so it's not like Denmark, but it's also not like here, it's like a thing in between. It's like the best way I could describe it, where I was really impressed are a few things I think I have heard, I had heard that like the German model is so prescribed so restrictive that you get stuck. Like once you're in this model, you're stuck and you have no pathway, we're tracking kids or young adults. And talking to patients, what I found is it's just not accurate. I think what they've done is they've been able to figure out multiple ways to get someone to a career, uh, versus only having one, one, maybe two paths, which we do in the U S right. Uh, I also was shocked again at the deep engagement, by the business community. We went and spent time with, uh, a German tool and dye maker. Um, and you know, he sort of said, listen, like, it's my responsibility to bring up the next generation of workers. And we had a manufacturer, um, DWIs actually, um, out of Michigan who said, well, don't the young adults, like not show up on time. Aren't the young adults. Like, you know, they don't know what they're doing. And he's like, of course they don't know what they're doing. They're 16. Like it's part of my job to show them what they're doing. Their parents can't teach them how to work because their parents are their parents and they don't know this. They don't know how to do, you know, advanced machining. And so I think it was really incredible for us to see the commitment of the business community, the full investment of the business community, but also the fact that they brought young adults in so much sooner. We saw a young kid, 14 years old who was there for a job shadow. I mean, he was a 14 year old boy. So he looked like he was 10, honestly. And we were thinking, what is this child doing here? And they said, Oh no, he's here for his job shadow. And he was following around a senior laborer who was showing him this other tool and dye machine does, this is how we do cutting. This is a safety protocols we follow. And so this young adult was getting exposed to this as a potential career option so that they can make good choices in terms of their pathways. The last thing that I will say was, um, they're having the same issues we're having here with the college for all mentality. So even though like 15 or 20% of their population goes through the apprenticeship program, there's been this push towards going to university in, uh, in Germany. Like most places in Europe university is free. And so they're seeing this mass overcrowding of universities in these long wait lists for people for young adults, unable to actually get into college. And what's happening is they're actually bouncing back then into the vocational education system because they're able to connect to employment much sooner. And is one of the, the young apprentices that we've mentioned that said, he's like, listen, I've already bought a house and I have a car. Um, like it's a very nice car. He goes, and none of my friends have that stuff. They're all still living at home. So they've seen what I have been able to accomplish. And I'm 21 years old, like they're, they're coming back into the Gobot system so that they can complete an apprenticeship too. So for me, again, it was illuminating. It is a reminder that there is a different way to do this, but also a different way that businesses think about supporting their workforce on a regular basis. Now who's this the cause I think I listened to that podcast. Career-wise New York is, and then it's relation to a program in Colorado or something. Yeah. So career-wise New York. Um, it was supported by the, the diamond foundation. So by Jamie diamond from JP Morgan chase, um, they basically are modeling what they're doing after a program called career wise, Colorado, which I strongly encourage folks to take a look at is very much focused on youth apprenticeship. So it's like taking career tech ed and putting it on steroids. Um, what's amazing about the program in New York is in some ways they've embedded a lot of what's in the Swiss model. So there's two primary, um, models and Europe, which is the Swiss model of apprenticeship, which is much more focused on young adults and in German model. Um, and in reality, what they've been able to do is to create real opportunity for New York young adults, who typically wouldn't be able to enter into a JP Morgan chase or a Barclays and actually create real meaningful pathways in partnership with the business community. And so I think they're at this point now where they're really starting to take off and I'm hopeful that we'll see youth apprenticeship spread across New York. So funded by Jamie Diamond's foundation. So hard to say funded by anyone other than a true capitalist to figure out that this is an opportunity to find people a good pathway, Melinda Mac, thank you so much for your time and all the work that you do. And, um, this is, it seems, at least I've always thought that when bureaucracies and systems are disrupted, it's the best opportunity for change. So keep on plugging away here and hopefully we'll have more people employed in jobs that they like and done in a smart way. Thanks for joining. Thank you so much.
Speaker 1:Thank you for tuning in to patterns and paradigms the pattern podcast. For more information about this episode, visit our website pattern for progress.org forward slash podcast.