Another week, another set of stories; Matt covers the Conduct Unbecoming, S03 E17 of Law and order with special guest Julianna Margulies! He was sure this really over to top episode had to be fictionalized, but unfortunately it's not. Enn reveals this was inspired by "The Tailhook Scandal" where Julia Rodgers, Lt Paula Coughlin and countless other women were assaulted.
Another week, another set of stories; Matt covers the Conduct Unbecoming, S03 E17 of Law and order with special guest Julianna Margulies! He was sure this really over to top episode had to be fictionalized, but unfortunately it's not. Enn reveals this was inspired by "The Tailhook Scandal" where Julia Rodgers, Lt Paula Coughlin and countless other women were assaulted.
Hey listeners. Today's episode deals with the topic of sexual assault. We wanted to notify our listeners who may experience trauma related to that topic ahead of the episode and to let you know that resources are listed on the website. Thanks for listening.
Voiceover:In this true crime law and order podcast, the episodes are presented by two separate yet equally ridiculous individuals, one who researches the actual crime and the other who recaps the episode. These are their stories.
Enn Burke:Here we are. How are you?
Matt Molinaro:I'm good. I just got home from from a friend's child's birthday party.
Enn Burke:How old is the child? The child is one. Oh, so it won't remember. It won't
Matt Molinaro:remember, but it was exactly the type of birthday party it should have been for a one year old won't remember. Which is a bunch of adults getting drunk. Exactly. Yeah. A few kids playing together that were older than the one year old. You know, doing the kid stuff. Like there was balloon animals and stuff. Yeah. And then all the adults having a good time. So we had a great time. And it's kind of like one of the first larger events we've done that hasn't been family related since in Jersey, so just kind of nice. Cool. Yeah. So I ate good food and I am ready. What about you? How's how's your week been? What's going on in the world of N?
Enn Burke:I'm good. I miles and I have just been watching a little TV today. We've been watching a show on HBO based on a Stephen King novel called The outsider. Oh,
Matt Molinaro:how does it good? I
Enn Burke:think it's very, like, there's a little bit of it. That's reminding me of like midnight mass, where it's like a small town and weird things are happening. But I guess that's also just a very Stephen King type thing. So I don't know. It's okay. So far. Um, I'm not turning the channel, so to speak. But I also don't necessarily know what's happening, but hopefully I will. Eventually the acting's pretty good. Yeah, you know, did I already say Jason Bateman, isn't it? No, he
Matt Molinaro:didn't say he was on it. Okay, so
Enn Burke:Jason Bateman is pretty much the only person I recognize, but I know there's a bunch of people in it. And typically, I really don't like him. But I like him in Ozark and I think he did a good job at this. Oh, see, I
Matt Molinaro:really like Jason Bateman usually.
Enn Burke:Well, then maybe you would like this show.
Matt Molinaro:I'll check it out. I really would watch it just for I always watch things just because I like the actor or actress in it. Yeah. And I just hope that I will like it and not have to
Enn Burke:trudge through something awful. Yeah,
Matt Molinaro:we watched a comedy special recently that you just remind me by saying HBO. Oh, really? Yeah. It's on HBO. I don't know how recently it is. I think it's very, very new. It's called Trash white. And it's by a guy named Moses storm. Okay, it looks really funny. We totally didn't know who he was at all. We were like, oh, let's, you know, look for some kind of stand up. We've been pretty lucky lately with the ones we picked. And it was new. And why not? It's a little bit of a slow burn at the beginning. Okay, but it was very, very funny. So it picks highly recommend.
Enn Burke:Nice. Awesome. I don't think I have any other recommendations for you this week?
Matt Molinaro:I don't think so either. I feel like we watched something recently and I wanted to write it down. I did recently watch which we've talked about on the show recently, which we've talked about on the show before is I'm catching up on shrill on Hulu. Oh
Enn Burke:yeah.
Matt Molinaro:Gosh, I love that show so much. I forget.
Enn Burke:I forgot I haven't. I think I didn't finish the most current season of it.
Matt Molinaro:Okay, yeah, I haven't seen the 30 I just saw we just I just watched the second season because I was behind and I just effing love that show so much. It's so good. Yeah, at Brian's great at Bryant. Honestly, I She is such an inspiration to me. Yeah, I can't even tell you like a huge, huge, huge inspiration to me. I know she probably never sees her Instagram messages for her Instagram is probably managed by someone at NBC. Who knows maybe she sees them maybe but I did send her one just saying I just think you're just the best and you've been a big inspiration to me so shout out to at Brian anyone knows her out there let her know she is changing lives
Enn Burke:that focus on Hey Redwood all know her because she was part of the like Chicago improv scene I think
Matt Molinaro:oh my gosh, well, you know, we've we've connected with Aaron before shout out to a rental rental. Maybe we can pass that message along and brighten her day.
Enn Burke:Yeah, honestly. It's like she needs more to brighten her day. Killing it like super rich SNL cast member but but oh
Matt Molinaro:my god, I guess. Great. It's probably one order related that's happening. What is the new lawn order season coming out?
Enn Burke:That's a great question. I do not know. Okay,
Matt Molinaro:I know it's it's going to be happening relatively Soon I feel like they're talking about it more and more. Yeah, I'm excited for that.
Enn Burke:And I think that the the Sol Bergman from Grace and Frankie, the actor that I really don't like, I think he's gonna be on it. Oh, he is. I don't know if that Sam Livingston that's his
Matt Molinaro:name. Oh, Sam Livingston is going to be on it. Oh, I like him usually I can't.
Enn Burke:Okay, listen, I only know him really from Gracie and Frank or Frank and Gracie, whatever the name of that show is, and I will be chaste because
Matt Molinaro:he's going to join the cast. I think soon he I think he replaces Logan.
Enn Burke:I mean, maybe I'll be okay with him on lawn order. I just like the portrayal of a gay couple on Grace and Frankie is not great.
Matt Molinaro:Oh, really? I've only ever seen the first season is it? Is it? Is it Terrence?
Enn Burke:It's not like? No, the show was actually good. I really really love Jane Fonda and Lily Tomlin. Yeah. Michael Douglas and Sam Livingston as a gay couple, though, like a they don't portray, like they're not a convincing they don't have chemistry or not convincing. They have no chemistry that
Matt Molinaro:I will say for sure. They read the lines and they go through the motions from what I've seen season one but no zero chemistry
Enn Burke:zero and, and also the whole premise of the show is based on the the two wives and so I'm kind of like they could have written them off after like three episodes, and it would have been great. So anyway, that's just complain about and Grayson, Frankie, but I'm done now.
Matt Molinaro:Oh, there it is. Whoo, hot opinions. How often Chris? Should we should we do it? I think so. Do the damn thing. All right. Well, this is read from the headline. So you should know why you're here by now. But if not, I'm Matt. That's n. Yo. And this is going to be season three episode 17 of law and order. And the episode is called conduct unbecoming.
Enn Burke:Welcome bump, bump. Um,
Matt Molinaro:and we'll find out exactly what that means during the episode. All right, so I'm the recap ever. We begin with the I won't say the most ridiculous party scene I've ever seen. Yeah, it's close. And from when I first saw it, I was like, Oh, what is this like a college party? There was a big like banner that says McKinley. And it's a luau type theme. And I'm seeing like a lot of people and like, all the usual suspects, you know, the grass, or the coconut bra. And then there's the shirtless dude. And then there's a sailor and then, but then there were sailor after sailor after sailor and I'm like, Oh, this is like a navy sailor thing. Yes. There's a lot of women at the party who are scantily clad. As I said, it becomes clear that this is a I don't even know what I'm sorry. I'm no I'm not like a straight man in white military. But I know shocking to everybody who found out the big reveal. This doesn't look like a party that anyone would ever want to be here. It's so aggressive. It's like a It's like they're at a boxing match. Well, is this really how people I've been to stream? I've been to frat parties.
Enn Burke:I just, I mean, you'll find out how accurate everything is when I cover the
Matt Molinaro:testing. Wow, okay, well, they're all acting like the Animaniacs villain nurses in the area. Everyone is a pig drooling at the mouth, foaming at the mouth. Like I said, it's a whole group of men at this party in this hallway. It's at a hotel. It's like a, like a sporting event. They're all shouting. And every woman that walks by is like scantily clad. And then these sort of ends this party scene with a woman walking through a hallway. And they're following her with his great camera technique. And she's slowly taking her top off. We're only seeing her from behind. So we see her like fussing with the bras clasp. And all the guys that she's passing as she likes to hunters by like Minerva mink, or like, like getting as close to the candidate touching her and then like parting ways, like oh, oh, if they cannot resist, it is so hard. Yeah. Anyway, so she walks through the muck in the mire, and then we cut to a scene where police are called to the hotel because it's a wild party. So they're like, Okay, we're gonna go break this up. They go up, they do very little to break anything up. They kind of walk into a room of like, we just described and they're like, Hey, guys, like Mr. Belding. What's going on, cut it out. And um, you know, they walk through and eventually they find a bedroom that is unoccupied and they find a woman lying dead on the bed. She is wearing a bra and it appears that she has vomited. So not a great outcome for this party. No.
Enn Burke:Kind of a downer for a party. Kind
Matt Molinaro:of a bummer. The M E on the scenes opposes. It's been a few hours since she passed. And then when Briscoe and Logan arrive, a hotel staff members has. They say quote, anything with a bounce is fair game. The quotes in this episode are so vile. Yep, I can't I then a hotel staff member refers to the woman on the bed whose dad as a sex worker, but not in those terms, of course. And when they search your body, they find out that that is not the case. Not that it would have mattered, but she is a lieutenant in the Navy. She has dog tags, and her name was Janet Hagen. We cut to the opening credits. So I had a little bit of time. Sure. So I went outside, I just a little herb garden, you know, a few miles away. So I went to it. And I picked some time. Uh huh. No pun intended, I brought it back. And I took every little leaf off of the stock of time, one by one. And when it was all finished pruning this long stalk of time, I made it back, and we're back to the episode.
Enn Burke:What were you making with it?
Matt Molinaro:I'm gonna make a nice ham.
Enn Burke:Okay, great.
Matt Molinaro:So we're back. And they say that of the guests, there were 19 sailors there. And I thought that was very strange. Because if only 19 of those men were sailors, there were like 100. Like,
Enn Burke:yeah,
Matt Molinaro:and of course, no one saw thing, a lieutenant from the Navy says that they'll cooperate. But you know, just so you know, she probably got drunk and stumbled, just a tragic accident. So he says that the rape kit was negative, there was vaginal abrasion. And it looks like the cause of death, ultimately was a brain hemorrhage from being hit on the head. And probably the head was hit against a hard surface from the type of injury. So other than that, she does have injuries, though. So it doesn't look so simple like that, because she has a torn a torn rotator cuff. And like tons of bruising. Yeah, very suspicious. So they asked a captain in the Navy about her. His name is Captain. I didn't write it down at the beginning, because I didn't realize we were going to need it.
Enn Burke:Ahab. Ah,
Matt Molinaro:not exactly. Captain bunker, there we go. So they talked to Captain, I almost said Ahab, Captain bunker. And he says, you know, she was great. She never caused any problems. And, you know, just so you know, everyone at that party was just letting off some steam. And this was just an unfortunate accident. Again, they show the captain their autopsy findings, showing that she was beat up the rotator cuff thing. And they say that, you know, this is more serious than you know. And his first question back the captain, not Oh, my gosh, or anything?
Unknown:He's shocked by it.
Matt Molinaro:He says, just the military No, doesn't even know. And they're like, yeah, they do. And they say in the meantime, while you've, you know, pedal around with this, you can give us the name of everyone at the party, because we're missing some. So they haven't evidently got the names. And they are questioning a man named Lieutenant banks. Everyone is like a lieutenant or a captain. So don't expect any first names here. So they speak to Lieutenant banks. And while they speak to any one of these people that I mentioned, unless they specifically say it in the background, like Slenderman is the first lieutenant that we spoke to just standing there off to the side, like a dark shadow, watching every interview like a hawk. He's like doing damage control, I guess. So Lieutenant bank says, I don't really recall much. You know, we were drinking. It was a party and they said, Okay, well, we know You left early. So why did you leave early? And he says it's because quote unquote, prostitutes were called, and what is the cause? What are the cops say to him? In response to that? What's the problem? You know, like girls vomit in my mouth. And he's like, Well, I'm married. And you know, I didn't want my wife to see that kind of behavior from me and just oppose anything. So I left at 10 and I went with, you know, my buddy, Lieutenant Walters, I think he's Lieutenant it doesn't matter. They went to a bar called McGill's also doesn't matter. They speak to Walters, and he verifies that he ends. The lieutenant left I went to see the end of a hockey game, and the detectives are just shocked that he'd passed up sex. Are you serious? You'd pass up sex with a sex worker, an easy game or something like this has something just like fair game for sure shot for anything else and He says, Yeah, I did. He's a little dodgy, but I think it's like not the most far fetched thing in the whole world. Yeah, they question a female lieutenant this time who I wanted to look up and I forgot because she looked famous is Angie Harmon. I can look really quick. Okay, if you weren't mine is Lieutenant Mendoza was her name in the show. We'll see. So oh no, Angie Harmon is the other detective we say she looks like someone who was in another detective show. Like the firm or the practice or something. So, Julie.
Enn Burke:See? She Oh, it's Julianna Margulies. Oh, nice.
Matt Molinaro:Okay, okay. Of course, love is she doesn't play the biggest role in this episode. But I saw her face and I was like, Oh, I know her.
Enn Burke:I know pretty over. Watch the practice, not the practice. The Good Fight the good. The Good Wife, The Good Wife. That's what it's called. The practice the good fight. Good. Well, listen, the good fight eventually was a TV show with Christine Baranski. Okay,
Matt Molinaro:well, then I take it back. I have not seen the good wife, but my parents love it.
Enn Burke:It's okay. Well, I don't know how it stands up. But I remember it being good.
Matt Molinaro:Oh, okay. Well, oh, you know what they love, Madam Secretary. Not that good. Oh, very
Enn Burke:different. Very different.
Matt Molinaro:I'm moving on. So Julianna Margulies who is not Madam Secretary, but is The Good Wife. Yeah. She says that she was a roommate to the victim and her and Janet shared quarters together. And they asked her, you know, what was she like, outside of the job? Like, what was her interests? And she just shares that she loves classical music. They don't get very present said. Great. She loves being on hold. She just gets into
Enn Burke:that. She loves riding on elevators,
Matt Molinaro:sir. Favorite type of thing. waiting rooms are especially
Enn Burke:spot for her. Yep, yep.
Matt Molinaro:So she mentioned that at the hula night party, that the two of them had had a drink together. And she herself left just before 10. And when she did, Janet had been in the hallway and she looked drunk. As the detectives walk away from the ship. They were literally on a ship asking the Navy people questions. They're picking, you know, they're putting, sorry, picking. They're putting things together. And part of what Logan says is that who would do this type of crime? Like it doesn't make any sense? Because it's not. It wasn't a sex crime. It looks like because she wasn't the rape kit was negative. But it looks like there was an attempt. So what happened during this crime that caused it to turn to murder? Yeah. And they they have this conversation. And I suppose that maybe the person who is the suspect who they don't know yet, maybe he was with her, and the two of them were together, Janet and him and you know, she was into him. But then she got nervous about all the other party guests being around and maybe being caught. And he lost control over it, and kilter and panicked and left. Yeah, I think that's a weird thought. Yes, I agree. But that is their, I mean, they have nothing. So this is what they're going with so. So you go talk to her dad, I would think that would be the first person you speak to. They're gonna talk to her dad. And he is super proud of her accomplishments. Most of them. He mentions that she had an issue her senior year at the Academy. And he says, What could have happened to her? He's been there. Like these guys, right? Younger guys, and he bets every guy took their best shot. What the hell are shows like this teaching boys?
Enn Burke:Yeah,
Matt Molinaro:I mean, it's terrible. Yeah, the father of the murder victim and possible sexual assault victim says, I empathize with all of those boys at that party, or because I've been there, and I'm sure they took their best shot because what a looker my daughter was, yeah. So he does say though, Janet wasn't like that though. She actually didn't even really drink because her mom died of alcoholism. So they think that's weird, because we heard that she looked drunk. So the lab work comes back and it confirms she was very sober. And Cragin tells her detectives they have nothing as usual. And so they're like, you know, remember that one seller that was married? And he said he was worried about his wife seeing him how would they see him? I don't know why this randomly came into their minds. And they say Oh, well maybe there was a video camera there which I we saw the video camera and the opening scene I should have mentioned it's it literally the size of a toaster oven so you couldn't miss it. The the light on that camera even though it was did not require flash. That party was so bright. It was like someone was following me down the freeway. So they review the footage, because they got the footage like that which never would happen in real life, you know that if that footage was in the custody, it was in that footage
Enn Burke:would be gone forever 100%.
Matt Molinaro:So they review this footage and they see, Janet, Lieutenant Hagen being led down the hall sort of in a state of not undressed, but like disheveled pneus. And she looks out of it. And super drunk Lieutenant Bates with his tie around his head. This is the guy who was married and so I wouldn't be there. She he's like guiding her down the hall. And so we know he was full of it. So yeah, they bring him in. And he eventually admits that he doesn't know what came over him, and that he did have sex with her, which means he's actually assaulted her. And then Walters went in after him to have his turn, and he doesn't know what happened. So they got Walters back in. He says, he was drunk, and that she quote, walked the gauntlet with Hobday never fully explained. But it's, I guess, when women walked down that hallway that we saw at these types of parties, that's called walking in the gauntlet, and it's like, they're choosing their man or a man, like someone's gonna just have sex with them. So he takes her into a room, he says, And he takes her clothes off, and then she threw up and stop moving, he didn't actually get very far. And then he panicked, obviously, and he just left her. And they're like, You could have called an owner want to get in trouble. You're in trouble. So it turns very quickly into is this going to be an NYPD case? Or is this going to be a military inside type situation? They have a big pissing contest about it and the Navy wins. Just then Briscoe suggests, Hey, I heard a crazy story of my life. What am I gonna apply to this moment out of nowhere, I heard a stone being hit in the head prior, and then dying later. So maybe she was hitting the head prior to walking the gauntlet. And, you know, there was a delay. So that talks to me about it. And he says, Oh, she probably had 30 minutes after the blow, where she was probably like, wood up here slightly off balanced or off before she died, which would explain looking drunk. I would wonder though, don't you think that would have been included in the original conversation with the Emmy?
Enn Burke:Yes, but then how would they have built in that brilliant moment with Briscoe?
Matt Molinaro:You're right, that thing. So while our little team puddles around with room service records for no reason, Lieutenant Walters ended up taking a plea for himself, but over their heads and craigan is like I'm gonna go raise hell with the Navy. You guys get back at a at the lieutenants that you've been questioning and find something else. So they go back to question Lieutenant Mendoza, who was the female roommate Julianna Margulies. They find her leaving. I don't know the base late at night. I stayed late at night. It looks like it's like 11 ish midnight, and it's raining and they're just like kind of stock stocking around outside. And they're like, hey, hey, come talk to us. And then they have a meeting and like a car like it's like a strange under the table deal. Yeah, very strange. But she is without the Slender Man Lieutenant this time. So she says that Captain bunker the man we saw the very beginning who said You know, she's a great, she was great. Just an unfortunate accident. Captain bunker tells her that her testimony is not relevant. And just stay out of everything. So that's why she hasn't really been saying much and she's been kind of hanging low. And they convince her that her captain doesn't have her best interests at heart. And they explained the thing about 30 minutes of like, suppose that drunkenness and she puts all the pieces together and realizes like Okay, I think I know what happened so she spills the truth. She says that she and Hagen went into bunkers sweet at the party. So that's the victim herself and Captain does the military No. Think go into the this has to be at the party. And bunker is arguing with Hagen. It sounded like they had a little bit of history. So she felt a little uncomfortable. And before long, bunker was like Mendoza, get out of here. This is private. So she leaves and bunker told her the next day keep quiet about that. That didn't happen. We finally get to the order part of the episode. It's a battle between Schiff and the rest of the day's team with a higher up from the Navy who is unwilling to cooperate. He is you know, this isn't inside business. You don't know what you're talking about. You're barking up the wrong tree, all that kind of stuff. So he says that he's not even going to get bunker for them to question because he's got important work to do. He's got a mission to go on. He's leaving soon, so no healing Is the room and our TAs team concoct a little plan to indict Walters. That's the lieutenant Slenderman guy. We finally got his last name. So Lieutenant Walters, they're going to indict him and that will somehow Force captain bunker to come forward on his behalf to protect him, I guess. Yeah. Which he does, which I mean, any buddy else. So he's the one he comes in. He's like, no, okay, but he's in the office. He's like, alright, stone, I got it. You won't be here. I'm here. What do you want me to talk about? We know why we're here. So stone goes, Okay. What about Mendoza? Tell me about Mendoza. Why did you dismiss her from the room from that night? And he says, Well, I didn't want to embarrass Hagen like shouting at her in front of a junior officer. He says that Hagen had been accusing him of being part of a, quote unquote, pattern of harassment of women on a mission. And he thinks that's ridiculous. And he didn't like that. So they were having some friction. And so he was gonna, you know, come down on her about it. So he says they were alone together for no more than five minutes. And he left the party with a sex worker whose name he doesn't remember. Of course, he didn't say sex worker. No. They tracked down this woman and Robinette chats with her. Like all women who were meant to appear sexual on the show. She's in a silk robe. Her story, she says that she left with bunkie that's what you have to in bunker wants to be called? Yeah, exactly. bunkie. And her went to the ambassador's hotel, the Ambassador Hotel. And, you know, they were gonna, you know, do their thing, but he couldn't really perform. And he got she was fine with it. You know, it's her. It's her line of work. It happens. So she wasn't trying to make a problem about it. But he got really upset and got really angry. And he assaulted her. And she luckily was savvy enough to get herself out of there. Yep. So she's very lucky that she did. We also learn that Hagen had graduated the academy around the same time that bunker was doing like a course thoroughly teaching there. Yeah. So, you know, they had an incident, as we heard, alluded to by her father before, and it seems that Hagen had spent a weekend with bunker and someone I forget who it was says that she was infatuated. But that right after the weekend, she was over it. And I can't say I blame her. Yeah, he was not. And he harassed her relentlessly, according to her. And when she complained about it, because she was like, even threatening to quit the academy. What happened? Nothing. What a shock. And the worst thing is like there's an asterisk next to Captain bunker's name as like a kind of a bad boy. So he just doesn't get picked for stuff. Yeah, that makes it even. Yep. So Schiff reluctantly give stone the go ahead to arrest which stone and Robinette do and he very tense scene in some sort of like weird Federal Building where they're having a navy meeting of some sort. In an equally tense meeting, he's with his attorney meeting with stone. And he goes off on this like disgusting, misogynistic rant and says that poor men are oppressed while women have this false sense of empowerment. And it's so hard to be a man in a male dominated field with women, they're who they harass and expect to be treated like a human being. Right. Poor guy, so he storms out, doesn't go well. And then we have the worst acting I've maybe ever seen with Lieutenant Walters back on the stand. He remember is the guy who confessed Previously, she was with her and then she threw up you know, right. I'm having a hard time when I watched this deciding whether is it really bad acting or is it just a really bad and unusual southern accent? Or both?
Enn Burke:Let's go with both.
Matt Molinaro:Let's go with both. He says everything happened the way he said it. He has no idea what would have happened to her he didn't hit her there was no tussle. And so we don't really learn very much. No. Finally Captain bunker's on the stand giving his spiel, you know, this is the way it happened just like we've heard so far. And he claims also that he was just talking with her she was unreasonable. He left her in a room with an open bar and that's all he knows. So stone does not like that implication obviously. So he goes after him hard he weasels that out of him while he's on the stands that the reason he stuck as a captain forever, while all of his colleagues have been promoted and all surpassed him is because of her and that must have bothered him. Stone den chooses the word impotence to describe his emotional state, which was very crafty because it triggers him big time. Yeah, and And as soon as stone mentions the sex workers name, Captain bunker shouts, that bitch deserved it. And Stone says which one? No further questions. Mic drop. I mean, so they both give closing arguments. I don't see the point after that. Right. But stone gives his ending with, quote, the military defines this as conduct unbecoming of an officer. In this courtroom, we call it murder in the second degree. The jury is out. They return. They agree. Guilty. And that is basically the end of the episode.
Enn Burke:Gosh, well, good job. Holy
Matt Molinaro:moly. Pumpkin pie?
Enn Burke:Yeah. I don't think you will know this, because I didn't know it. But the actual story is not terribly far away from the real episode, or from the episode
Matt Molinaro:that is terrible. Yeah.
Enn Burke:So this is the story of what is referred to as the tail hook scandal tail like a tail and hook like, Captain Hook,
Matt Molinaro:tail hook scandal here. I've never heard of it.
Enn Burke:Okay. So the tailhook Association is a a nonprofit organization that is nationwide. And it's referred to as like a fraternal organization. And essentially, what it is, is that it's an organization that was founded in 1956, by naval aviators, so the people who either flew planes that were on aircraft carriers, or like service planes, or or, you know, whatever, people associated with naval aviation, okay, the tail hook, actually, I didn't know this, this was interesting to me. So you know how whenever you see a plane land on a aircraft carrier, it like lands, and then you see it catch a cable that keeps it from like flying off the end of the boat?
Matt Molinaro:You know, I've never seen that. I don't think I've ever seen a aircraft plant on our carrier. But I can't picture in my mind the way you're saying it. I'll look it up afterwards. But okay,
Enn Burke:I think I think probably I'm remembering Top Gun is the thing that comes to mind movie, I would have seen that in potentially, essentially a Top Gun, believe it or not. I don't know if you showed or not, I don't remember it very well. But so that's the tail hook is the airplanes or the aircraft on aircraft carriers have a hook that catches on to that wire, that helps it then not fly off the end of the battleship.
Matt Molinaro:So the hook is on the actual plane, the wire is on the on the tarmac or whatever, correct. Okay, interesting.
Enn Burke:So, this is from their website, it says, quote, The purposes of the association are to foster encourage, develop, study and support the aircraft carrier, sea based aircraft, both fixed and rotary wing and air crews of the United States of America and to educate and inform the public in the appropriate role of the aircraft carrier and carrier aviation in the nation's defense system.
Matt Molinaro:So that's a lot. That's a very broad vision. Yeah,
Enn Burke:yes, very wordy. very general, it feels like but so this organization, as I said, was founded in 1956. And they held a annual convention. And originally, the purpose of this convention was for Navy and Marine pilots, and aircrew, essentially to socialize like it was kind of a social thing. At first, even though they they have that mission that I just read, right. And so it was an annual convention that came to be pretty popular among folks in that line of military service.
Matt Molinaro:isn't the kind of event that maybe they weren't, I don't know, blow off a little steam so much.
Enn Burke:Yes, I might say that. So, in 1968, the organization held their annual conference, and it was so popular that it was moved to the Las Vegas Hilton. And, you know, there were, like entire wings of the hotel that were kind of reserved by folks who are attending this annual convention, okay. And it was held out the Las Vegas Hilton from 1968 until 1991. And the association as well as the annual conference, kind of had what's referred to as semi official recognition with the US military, because the military provided rent free office space to the organization. I remember I said it was a nonprofit. So there were folks who kind of like ran membership and all the other things associated with the organization and the US military gave them free office space. In Miramar, which I think is just north of San Diego. Okay. Officers were allowed to attend the convention while they were on official duty rather than them being required to be on leave, which would be the normal case in similar events. But because they have this sort of like semi official recognition officers who were still technically on duty, were permitted to attend the event and essentially kind of paid to be there. So the annual convention drew attendees, all the way up to senior members of the Department of Defense. So you had everyone from, you know, the person who made sure that that line on the aircraft carrier was going to catch the plane to the head of the Department of Defense essentially are very senior members of the Department of Defense, the organization by 1991 had more than 14,000 members. And you will probably be unsurprised to hear that 96%. were men?
Unknown:No way. Yeah.
Enn Burke:So this annual convention at the Las Vegas Hilton was known to have a pretty intense party atmosphere. People were often drunk off their asses, according to many of the articles that I read entire, what were called hospitality suites. And I couldn't quite tell if that was a term that the Hilton used, or if that was a term that like journalists use when they were writing about it, or like, the member or the organization used, essentially, these hospitality suites were rooms in the hotel where debauchery occurred, essentially, like, there was really heavy alcohol consumption, there were often strippers and sex workers in attendance. Some of the articles indicated that there may have been drug use in some of these hospitality suites. And they kind of seem to have a competition with each other, like, you know, which hospitality suite was going to be the best, you know, because they were sort of like sponsored by different squadrons. And so it's sort of like, oh, we want to be the cool hospitality suite where everybody wants to come hang out.
Matt Molinaro:I know exactly. Yeah. Yeah, I've heard in one of those house, I think is do okay. So I've been to a bachelorette party once were they rented out like this large ish sort of room with like, tables and chairs and stuff, where we can have the bachelorette party and do stuff in a hotel. And there were like, several of them like next to each other. Like you could use them for like a small party, it looked like it was just like an open room.
Enn Burke:So the association definitely rented those as well. And those were kind of used for the more like formal parts of the meeting like, because essentially the the annual meeting was supposed to be about like learning and sharing knowledge and all of that kind of stuff that convention is supposed to be. And so they would have like the ballrooms and all that sort of stuff rented for those in attendance. But the hospitality suites seem to be more in the like, bedroom, hotel room area. Maybe they were like a larger room, or, you know, maybe multiple rooms were opened next to each other
Matt Molinaro:kind of, I got it. So this is kind of the kind of suite you would you would get if you were going to have a party at a like a hotel, and not all of the guests were staying over. Yes, exactly. I see. Okay, that makes sense. Sorry. I need. I'm glad I got that clarification.
Enn Burke:Great. Okay. So as I said, they had kind of like competitions with each other. The attendees of the annual event were sort of also known for pulling stunts, they were often engaging in public nudity like they would streak. One behavior that was mentioned in a lot of articles was something called ball walking, which you might you might think of, like Bala categories from like the drag scene. Actually, I'm feeling it's not the same. Very different, which
Matt Molinaro:category?
Enn Burke:Which category are we on right now, the category of this is men walking around with their genitals hanging out of their pants Womp womp. So, the men at the association were also known for being kind of sexually aggressive. There. For example, in one area of the Hilton Hotel was a hallway where men would line up on both sides of the hallway, and would assault people as they walked through the hallway. This came to be referred to as the gauntlet. So they actually did pull that straight from the real story. So they would do things like they would slap stickers of their squadron on the bodies of people who like passed by. Most often it was women that they were assaulting. When they ran out of stickers, they would group or pinch women as they walked by, and just to kind of give a general sense of the rest of the like tenor of the event 1000s of dollars were damaged at the 1000 1000s of dollars worth of damage were caused to the hotel every year that the conference was held, which I imagine hotels must have. That must happen pretty regularly. I bet like hotel damage kind of stuff, but I count dozens of dollars common.
Matt Molinaro:Yeah, yeah. Well, maybe you wouldn't expect it from I don't know, you some active duty duty military.
Enn Burke:Yeah. I mean, if you're literally being paid to be a member of the military, maybe you shouldn't be smashing up hotel rooms, perhaps Perhaps. So there did seem to be a period of a couple of years where the annual convention calmed down a little bit, because the military threatened to revoke their sponsorship. And so that happened, but essentially, it didn't really last very long. And it quickly kind of returned to the previous level of shenanigans. And so now I will tell you about the 1991 tail hook Association Conference.
Matt Molinaro:When 1991 You said 1991? Yeah, okay, here we go.
Enn Burke:So, as I said, most of the conventions had the kind of behavior that I described, but the what came to be known as the tailhook scandal occurred at the 1991 convention. It was formally titled The 35th annual naval aviation symposium. And it was held between September 5 And September 8, as I sat at the Las Vegas Hilton, this year was supposed to be the largest yet, because each year the number of attendees would grow because it was, you know, a big party, so people wanted to go. This also was expected to be a pretty big year because the Gulf War had happened earlier in the year. And so there was going to be a lot of presentations on, like, what was learned what went right, what went wrong. And so there were 22 squadrons who reserved hospitality suites at this 1991 event, which seems to have been the all time high. In the like formal events of the conference, there was an instance where there was like a q&a panel with Vice Admiral Richard Dunn Levy, who, I am not an expert in the military. So I do not know what all the different levels mean. But he seems to be a very, very senior member of the military. So it was kind of like a q&a panel. And one of the people in the audience who was a woman asked when women would be allowed to fly fighter jets because women were not allowed to at the time, and I'm not sure if they are now do you know?
Matt Molinaro:I don't, I feel like they would be right.
Enn Burke:It says of all the 11,000 pilots in the Air Force, only 708 are women. They fly mobility aircraft, and only 3% Fly fighters. So it looks like they are allowed now. Okay, but 3%. So she asked this question in 1991. When are women going to be allowed to fly fighter jets? And what happened was the crowd started cheering out her because the room was full of men. Right? They laughed at her they cap called her and the Vice Admiral Richard Dunn Levy, who was the one answering questions on the panel said essentially that we'll do it when Congress orders us to which in and of itself is gross. But then the crowd booed at that answer, because they didn't want women to be able to fly in the Navy. So that's cute.
Matt Molinaro:That's cute, by the way I looked up for for US Vice Admiral is there's only two people above them, which is first Admiral who's at the very top, then there's Admiral, and then there's the vice admiral, Admiral, and there are a bunch under that. So yeah, you're right. It's like, just at the top.
Enn Burke:Okay, yeah. So the night of September 7 was the night that the gauntlet seems to have been the most rowdy men as usual lining to the hallways of the third floor in the hospitality section. And they would signal to people like men would kind of like keep lookout and would signal to the folks in the hallway when people were approaching and they had a system where they would indicate this. So they would shout clear deck if a woman was coming down the hallway, who was deemed attractive enough to assault and they would shout wave off if they thought that she was too unattractive and therefore not worthy of being assaulted by the men in the gauntlet. So this evening, the men would grope women who entered the gauntlet they grabbed at their rear Friends, their breasts their crotch. In one report of the incident incident, investigators said quote a female civilian told us that as she walked up the hallway at least seven men attacked her. They pulled down her to top and grabbed at her exposed breasts while she attempted to cover herself with her arms, she fell to the ground and the assault continued. After a few moments, they stopped their attack, and she was allowed to get up from the floor. This is a civilian woman, this is a civilian woman. So this was apparently common, they would like rip women's shirts or blouses off, they would sometimes like pick them up and kind of like, carry them through the crowd. One article I read said observers and participants reported that while some we, this pissed me off observers and participants, which by the way, most of them are men, of course, reported that some women seemed to enjoy it. And I just want to be clear that people who are being assaulted will be will react in different ways to ensure their safety. And so even if they appeared to be playing along, that doesn't mean they asked for it. They clearly didn't condone it and give consent. So it's still unacceptable. Yeah, I
Matt Molinaro:think they call that fawning earache. Yes. I mean, and also like, how, what bothers me, obviously, a lot bothers me about stories like this. But for anyone out there who listens to something like this and thinks, oh, you know, is it boys will be bad? Is it so bad? Like, she walked away? She wasn't for like the last that last woman's story, she walked away. She didn't get, you know, quote, unquote, raped? You know, is it so bad? She was at a party where they were drinking, it was wild, what did they expect? I, it drives me crazy when people have that kind of attitude. Because think about in your own personal life, some of the most traumatic things that have happened to you interpersonally with other people in your life, where you didn't have the control, whether it's a parent, or in school, or at a job, or on the street, or everyday, when you leave your house for some people like think about those things that traumatize you. Yeah. And that changed your life forever. And a party like this is basically a factory, a factory, to have a quote, unquote, good time for these violent offenders. And for everyone else who leaves that party to leave and carry that trauma with them for the rest of their lives.
Unknown:Right? Yes, exactly. Like the it's a way bigger
Matt Molinaro:scope and magnitude of a thing. It's not just, Oh, someone got pushed around at a party for a minute and a half. Right? It just, that's the thing that really drives me crazy when you hear about these types of cases.
Enn Burke:Yeah, yep. Some of the women when they were being assaulted, would fight back, kicking, punching, biting, scratching at the man who assaulted them. The men responded by throwing drinks in these women's faces. At about 11pm, a woman named Julie Rogers, who was a civilian she was 18 years old, was carried out of the hospitality suite by members of the HS one which is the helicopter anti submarine squadron. She was semi conscious and the men in the gauntlet removed her pants and underwear and carried her through the crowd. And she was left half naked and unconscious on the hallway floor. two security guards at the Hilton who had been witnessing all of this, by the way, like the it seems like the security didn't do much of anything to stop this kind of behavior. They would just kind of like maybe monitor it for like extreme awfulness, which this is all awful. But it seems like they were there just to like, not really protect people from the you know, pin groping, essentially. But you know, they were looking for somebody if they were unconscious, they
Matt Molinaro:weren't there to make sure that no officer would be held responsible for a death. That's what it seemed basically, like they're there to just make sure that nobody dies or loses a limb. Yeah, so that it's so obvious.
Enn Burke:So this woman, Julie Rogers, who was unconscious on the floor, the two security guards, who had been watching all of this not interrupted any of the previous assaults, saw her unconscious on the floor went over to help her when they like went over to her. The men in the hallway scattered and the security guards escorted her away. And once they left the men reentered the hallway and resumed the gauntlet at about
11:30pm Lieutenant Paula Coughlin, it who was a helicopter pilot and she was the also the appears to be the executive aide to Rear Admiral Jack Snyder. So she was both a pilot and kind of held a I guess assistant role to to a senior member of the Navy
Matt Molinaro:Okay, Rear Admiral, by the way is right under the other one that we had.
Enn Burke:Okay, so she went okay, so her boss is like one of the big wigs then essentially. So, at 11:30pm She got off the elevator on the third floor which is where the gauntlet was held, and a crowd of men surrounded her and started chanting admirals aide because she was the aide to the admiral, and then two men grabbed her by her butt and pushed her forward into the crowd. When she was in the crowd, a man bear hugged her from behind and dragged her to the floor while putting his hands inside of her shirt to grope her. Another man reached up her skirt and started to pull down her underwear. She bit the man who was groping her, he released her, and she, like tried to get away from the crowd of men, she found like an older man who she was like, Maybe this old guy will like help me. She asked him for help, and he responded by groping her breasts. She managed to get inside of an empty suite. She'd like found an empty door, got inside, closed up behind her. And a short time later, an officer who she was an acquaintance of walked into the room, and she asked him if he knew what was going on in the hallway outside because she had just been assaulted. And his response was, you didn't go down the hallway, did you? Someone should have warned you. That's the gauntlet, which, so it's not okay if it's her, but it's okay. If it's other women. Fuck, yeah. When Coughlin ended up. Meeting up with two officers who she knew later, I think it was the next day. Oh, no, I'm sorry. That evening, they escorted her through the hallway so that she could try to identify who had attacked her. But by this point, the hallway was mostly empty, so she wasn't able to identify anyone. She called Rear Admiral Jack Snyder, her commanding officer to tell him about the incident and to her, like direct quote was that she was almost gang raped by a bunch of pilots. His response was, quote, Paula, you need to stop hanging around with these guys. That's what you've got to expect on the third deck with a bunch of drunk aviators. That was Rear Admiral Jack Snyder. Wow. Wow. Also your fault polar? Uh huh. Your fault. You brought it on yourself, you should have known better.
Matt Molinaro:Come on. This is just like, you know.
Enn Burke:Also, also at the 9091 conference, men were ball walking around the public pool of the hotel. And people in a hospitality suite on the eighth floor pushed a plate glass window out of its frame, which careened into the crowd below them, where it shattered. It somehow managed to hit none of the military service members, but it did hit a college student woman in the head, giving her a concussion and other folks had like broken glass that like flew at them and cut them up.
Matt Molinaro:Oh, okay. Oh, that's which. Well,
Enn Burke:I mean, literally the to me. I'm not saying that was a good picture. Bush the window out. But I think everybody was really lucky. It wasn't worse than that. Oh, my God. Yeah. Because hotel windows are usually he really big. Yeah. And from the eighth floor. It's kind of a miracle. Nobody died from that.
Matt Molinaro:It's a miracle. Nobody died from that down there. And then it's a miracle that a part of it that was so wild. Yeah, exactly. A part of it. Was that wild? And had that I'm picturing, like you said a huge open window. Right. It's wild that nobody was was tossed out after that, either.
Enn Burke:Yes, yes. So Paula Coughlin met with her commanding officers on September 19, to document the incident. And she was assured that the documentation of her assault would be shared with Admiral Dunn lady, who was the man who had been in the q&a panel. So kind of again, like the right below the head of the Navy, essentially. Two weeks later, she learned that those letters had never been sent, so he was never notified of the assault. She then gave a copy of the letter to Captain Frederick Ludwig, who directed Rear Admiral Deval Williams to start a criminal inquiry into the matter. So the investigation began on October 9, or sorry, October 11 1991. And that same day that Frederick Ludwig ordered Rear Admiral Duvall Williams to investigate the matter. He also mailed a letter to all the participating squadrons at the symposium, which read in part quote, without a doubt, it was the biggest and most successful tail hook we have ever had. We said it would be the mother of all hooks, and it was this year the total damage Bill was $23,000 Finally, and most serious was the gauntlet on the third floor. I have five separate reports of young ladies, several of whom had nothing to do with tailhook who were verbally abused and had drinks thrown on them, who were physically abused and sexually molested. most distressing was the fact and underage young lady was severely intoxicated and had her clothing removed by members of the gauntlet. So he did say this behaviors not great. Well, let me take that back. He's he listed all of the behavior. But he also said that this was the most successful one ever, incited the $23,000 in damage in saying that indicator of how great be proud. Yeah. So this letter found its way into the hands of a journalist named Gregory Visakha, who published an article about it. And that story was then picked up by papers across the nation Schneider who was the commanding officer of Paula Coughlin, who the one who you'll remember basically told her that she had brought it on herself, yeah, was relieved of command because he had not reacted quickly enough to her initial complaint. And at this point, there are like, 35 different like investigations and like, hundreds of people involved, so I'm not gonna go I'm gonna give you the broad strokes. Okay, okay. So in a report of the Navy's investigation into the tailhook scandal, they stated that the naval officers that they interviewed as part of the investigation would tell them that women at the conference quote, should have expected and accepted the treatment they received and that there was a quote, long standing continued abuse and glamorization of alcohol within the naval aviation community, the investigation by the NIS, which is the Navy investigative service, or something like that, found that the EPA 1991 convention there were 25 Different victims of sexual assault. Four suspects for the assault on Paul Lieutenant Paula Coughlin were identified who were also found to have committed obstruction of justice and making false official statements in the course of the investigation, but the NIS investigation was not satisfactory to Congress, because they felt that all of the investigation had led to kind of the individual perpetrators of this, which were very few at this point. Like, there were so many people who participated, but they kind of like only found for people to sort of
Matt Molinaro:you carry the you know, the way the burden of of debauchery at the party. Yeah,
Enn Burke:yeah, exactly. And Congress was pissed that none of these people were senior members like they were like, You commanding officers clearly have known about this gauntlet for years and had taken no action to quell it. So they were upset that senior members hadn't done anything. In response to this, the Senate Armed Services Committee froze all Navy and Marine Corps promotions until the Department of Defense provided a list to the committee of every officer who had misbehaved at the 1991 tailhook convention. This, as you can imagine, did not go over very well with the Military Secretary of the Navy, whose last name was Garrett. He was really upset by this, because he was the one oh, he was he claimed in the course of the investigation, that he was not present in the hospitality suites when the gauntlet had occurred. But many witnesses placed him at the hospitality suites. So when this was uncovered, he offered his resignation, but Department of Defense Secretary Dick Cheney refused to allow him to resign. Two weeks later, Paula Coughlin was interviewed by ABC World News Tonight about the assault and the events at tail hook. And then after that happened, and people were really picking up on the story, Dick Cheney called Secretary of the Navy and was like, actually, I am going to accept your resignation. After all, so find, again, our government doing the bare fucking minimum Yikes. In a second investigation by the Department of Defense, they found that 83 women and seven men had been sexually assaulted at the conference. 23 different officers were implicated in these assaults, another 24 were cited as having committed indecent exposure, and 51. Officers were found to have lied to investigators in the course of the investigation. So in total, more than 300 officers were identified as having participated in the events of the tailhook scandal. However, because there was insufficient evidence to prosecute many of these cases, ultimate li only about 50 faced any kind of trial, two were completely exonerated. 12 received non punitive sentences of counseling 28 were fined an amount of between $502,000. And some were issued permanent official letters in their files, which some of the article said made it less likely that they would be promoted in the future. But based on the ad, you started permanent record it right. But based on the fact that all of the commanding officers that were interviewed in this work, like said, you should have known about this behavior, like that's what you expect, like clearly that's not going to be a problem for them promoting people then right, you know what I mean? Yes. So, and of those 5030, were given immunity for cooperating as witnesses. So like five people essentially, like faced any consequences as a result of all of this. Yeah, of course, um, Lieutenant Paula Coughlin resigned from the Navy in 1994. And she sued the tailhook Association, and the suit was settled out of court for a settlement of $400,000. She also sued the Hilton Hotel and was awarded over $6.7 million in damages. Eight other women sued the tailhook Association, and I believe the Hilton Hotel and received undisclosed settlements. So when it comes to political impacts, one thing to note is that the Navy had been one of the first branches of the military to allow women to enroll with back in 1972. And in studies of the Navy, after the tail hook incident, studies found that women's servicemembers in the Navy faced greater levels of isolation and ostracization from male colleagues after the tail hook incident than they had in decades prior. So the fact that all of the men got caught, and this was like, a noticeable event meant that the women in the military actually ended up experiencing greater harm, right, because the men were pissed, essentially,
Matt Molinaro:exactly. So they get there's no retribution.
Enn Burke:Exactly. So following that, the tail hook incident, there was an increase in accusations of assault, which was attributed to when women feeling more empowered to report instances of harassment and assault that they had experienced at the hands of their men colleagues. But the men when interviewed about this just said that it was a witch hunt, and none of the reports of assault were true. And the public response to the incident and the subsequent investigations was pretty negative as what surprised no one. Most people were just kind of upset that the senior officers faced little to no consequences. And that of all the charges that all the people faced in the 1981 scandal. No one was found guilty or disciplined for actual sexual assault. A lot of nothing happened. Yes, a whole lot of nothing with probably a whole lot of dollars spent like hemming and hawing and investigating, you know,
Matt Molinaro:years. years years. Yeah.
Enn Burke:A 2013 study by the Pentagon reported that 26,000 military personnel were sexually assaulted in the year prior, the majority of which were women. So just again, an average of 26,000 people enrolled in the military being sexually assaulted a year most of them being women. There, that was an increase over 19,000. The year before that. So 2012, there was only 19 and 2013, there was 26. However, the military records didn't have those same numbers, they instead stated that stated that only 3300 had occurred, which is a difference about of about 22,000 people which you know, pretty big gap between the number of actual assaults and the number of reported to official military channels. These figures came from an article that I read from the New York Times which said that in addition to this, the officer who was in charge of sexual assault prevention in the Air Force, with someone who was charged with sexual battery for assaulting a woman in a parking lot, that's the person who is in charge of sexual assault prevention in the Air Force. Finally, worth note is that the in that Department of Defense investigation, they stated, quote, similar behavior had occurred at previous conventions. The emerging pattern of some of the activities such as the gauntlet began to assume the aura of tradition. There's even some evidence to suggest that tailhook 91, was tame in comparison to earlier conventions. In fact, many of the younger officers who attended tailhook 91 felt that the excesses that occurred there were condoned by the Navy. And that is a really quick summary of the tailhook scandal.
Matt Molinaro:Wow. Oh, that's disgusting. Isn't it? Awful? That's disgusting. It's so sad to see a how similar it was to the episode which
Enn Burke:felt like this, which was gross, so gross.
Matt Molinaro:And then be like, This is not changing. Like I did. I've I don't remember her last name. But I know. Her first name is Vanessa. I think she is in the she was in the army. Ooh, this is ringing a bell. Yeah, it's very recent. And she was killed by a fellow soldier. Ethics. She's Yes. But she Yeah, she no justice. Nope. No justice and silenced and like missing report. And you know, yep. Years and years of litigation and nonsense and Yep. Like you just see this all the time. Yeah. Still, like this was 1991. Yeah. Oh, my God, you
Enn Burke:better people do better. Better. More. Great job. Thanks.
Matt Molinaro:What, um, what do you? Wow, I have so much to chew on now for the ratings. Yeah. What do you rate the episode for watchability?
Enn Burke:Um, I'm gonna say c minus. What about you?
Matt Molinaro:I actually think we're gonna match you on that. Minus Yeah, it was. It felt really long. Yeah. Especially for the law part. When the order part started. I'm like, wow, this is just gonna be one quick scene, huh? I was like, oh, it's literally halfway through. What about how it related to the crime? Actually was great.
Enn Burke:It was other than like, nobody died at the tailhook scandal. Other than that, it seems pretty accurate. So I'll give them a although they did say a ton of offensive things about sex workers. So let's say see,
Matt Molinaro:yeah, I'm gonna say, I'll give them a c plus. Great because they got a lot of those details in there. About those details. Maybe devils in the details. All right, everyone. I know your phone is either in your hands or it's really close by so pick it up, head to whatever podcast app that you're using right now, because you're listening to us. And subscribe, subscribe, subscribe. And while you're there, rate and review us because that's what helps people find our
Enn Burke:show. Yeah, and the second best thing you could do is to recommend our podcast to a friend because you have good taste and people respect your opinion.
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Enn Burke:Yeah, and check out our website ripped headlines pod.com. There you will find the link to our Patreon, which has some great perks and you get to support one of your favorite indie podcasts.
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Enn Burke:Thanks so much for listening to work from the headlines where you get the facts and some fiction.
Matt Molinaro:We'll see you next week. And until then, stay out of the headlines. Bite and see ya