We’re asking all of our listeners who haven’t yet to please rate, review and subscribe to us on whatever platform you listen to us on; it’s the best way you can support us and get the word out :]
Howdy folks! This week's episode recaps one of our favorites yet Animal Instinct (S03 E18 of Law and Order. Enn gets down to the nitty gritty as they take us through some pretty intense scenes, and afterwards since this episode didn't have any inspiration, Matt tells the astonishing story of Alison Botha - Listen before googling, you are never going to believe this one.
"If this [episode] brings up any issues for you, or if you just feel like you need to speak to someone, please call 1800 RESPECT (1800 737 732) – the national sexual assault, domestic and family violence counseling service. It doesn’t matter where you live, they will take your call and, if need be, refer you to a service closer to home."
We’re asking all of our listeners who haven’t yet to please rate, review and subscribe to us on whatever platform you listen to us on; it’s the best way you can support us and get the word out :]
Howdy folks! This week's episode recaps one of our favorites yet Animal Instinct (S03 E18 of Law and Order. Enn gets down to the nitty gritty as they take us through some pretty intense scenes, and afterwards since this episode didn't have any inspiration, Matt tells the astonishing story of Alison Botha - Listen before googling, you are never going to believe this one.
"If this [episode] brings up any issues for you, or if you just feel like you need to speak to someone, please call 1800 RESPECT (1800 737 732) – the national sexual assault, domestic and family violence counseling service. It doesn’t matter where you live, they will take your call and, if need be, refer you to a service closer to home."
Hey listeners. Today's episode deals with the topic of sexual assault and some pretty graphic depictions of violence. We wanted to notify our listeners who may experience trauma related to those topics ahead of the episode and to let you know that resources are listed on the website. Thanks for listening.
Voiceover:In this true crime law and order podcast, the episodes are presented by two separate yet equally ridiculous individuals, one who researches the actual crime and the other who recaps the episode. These are their stories.
Enn Burke:Hi, hey, how are you?
Matt Molinaro:I'm okay. Are you?
Enn Burke:Good? It's been a week.
Matt Molinaro:It's been a really long week.
Enn Burke:It was a really long week. And it's over now, thankfully.
Matt Molinaro:Yes. Hello.
Enn Burke:And I'm enjoying my weekend so far. Good. Let's see if that keeps up through the recording.
Matt Molinaro:All right now. Yeah,
Enn Burke:exactly. I have a couple of things to mention. I'm interested. So I think it was this episode or this podcast where we talked about Grace and Frankie. Yes. Okay. My mom messaged me and asked if I had gotten a bunch of correction messages because when I was talking about Grace and Frankie, I said that Michael Douglas was on the show when it's actually Martin Sheen. Oh my god. Okay. Yeah. And I cannot. Honestly, I have a I maybe I have like facial recognition challenges or something. Because, to me, I still get confused between Glencoe close and Meryl Streep. Well, that's an easy one. Yeah. And I get really confused with Martin Sheen and Michael Douglas. I looked at pictures of them. And I was like, they kind of look like
Matt Molinaro:they really do. I never really thought about that. I didn't really think of Martin Sheen that often I never would have
Enn Burke:corrected you. It's like such a read. I don't really think about him. Sorry, Martin Sheen. Oh, boy. The second thing is, have you heard of or watched the tinder swindler?
Matt Molinaro:I haven't washed it yet. But um, it's, you know, it's the hot topic right now.
Enn Burke:Add it to the list because it is worth your time. Yeah, definitely. It's a wild ride. And the as you can probably guess from the title, it's about a con man, I guess. Let's talk about that after you've watched it. Okay. The people who are really successful like con artists, I don't understand how they sleep at night. Like I really don't understand the imagine. Even if I felt justified in conning somebody, which I don't. The anxiety of it being like found out at any moment would keep me awake.
Matt Molinaro:Oh my god. Yeah. And also, I don't know about this guy. But I'm thinking about other cons I've heard about in particular, I think I mentioned a few weeks a few weeks ago, that podcast about the Hollywood con queen. Yes, that person had so many false identities that they were juggling with so many different people. I don't even like when I have to call multiple people at work. Or if I have to like text back a group chat. Yeah. How do you keep track have so many different identities? So many different people? You're You're screwing. I don't I don't know how you sleep at night with your conscience or with your stress? Yeah, honestly.
Enn Burke:That's exactly how I feel.
Matt Molinaro:I'm definitely gonna watch it by next week.
Enn Burke:Okay. The other thing that I have been watching that just came out, I think yesterday is the new season of love is blind on it. It's uh huh. Okay, did you watch the first one I forget. Oh, yeah. Yeah, okay. I thought they were gonna have a hard time topping the train wreck people from last season because there were some truly, truly train wreck people on that show. And they have not disappointed this new season, like minutes and I was like, oh, so yeah, okay. I'm like three episodes in right now.
Matt Molinaro:I'm excited. I um, we haven't watched anything new. But we've done a couple of old movie watches that David hasn't seen. Okay, so we watched a couple weeks ago we watched Mr. Holland's Opus. Have you seen that?
Enn Burke:Shut up. Okay. Matt. I used to say that that was my favorite movie because it was I was in choir so it just kind of like yeah, connected for me. Yes. But I don't remember how good it is. isn't good. It's still
Matt Molinaro:good. And I just look back at it. I remember rule I remember watching it and being with this guy's kind of a derp X he was family you know, like understandable dirtbag, you know, because of all the stress and you know, he doesn't whatever but he's kind of a dirtbag to his family a lot of those times in favor of his career or whatever. And then rewatching it. I'm like, It's not that it doesn't hold up. Well, it was But much of what he does, I'm like, you don't deserve half of what these people are giving you as far as praise. Really half based on like what you've done to your family. And I'm glad they understand and they're there for you and whatever. I don't know. We just watched yesterday, actually, Philadelphia. I've seen that one. Oh, yeah. I haven't seen that one since it came out on stars.
Enn Burke:I feel like a star as well. I think I saw it. I definitely saw it with my family. I don't think I saw it in theaters. How did that hold up? Uh, besides the fact that they cast a straight actor to play a game man.
Matt Molinaro:Yeah, I think overall, it did pretty well. Okay, I think it holds up pretty well, it. It ties up a little bit too nicely. Of course, like most sure feel good sort of movies do. But you still see all the shit that happens to our community and to people in the community who are living with AIDS or HIV. Yeah, and yeah, and it's difficult to hear some of the things that some of the characters say, but you know, they're being portrayed as shitty. So, you know, but I think it's good that that came out. When it did, um, shocking to me that it got as much praise as it did after watching it again. But it wasn't Oh, yeah. Oh,
Enn Burke:I mean, I guess for the time it like was a very a anxiety filled topic for I think the country because we were still learning about the virus. Yeah. And so I can imagine that it that created a lot of charge for the movie in a way that it maybe doesn't feel as anxiety for people today. I don't know. Yeah,
Matt Molinaro:I think what I would say they did the best and I was actually still very impressed with watching it now. Was they do really good close up micro expressions on people that are very, very effective. That's it though. No, okay, that's a new just revisiting the rolling with the oldest is that a thing?
Enn Burke:No, rolling with the homies is clueless but threaten to the sweat. Oh, gosh, yes. Sweating to the oldies. That is a thing
Matt Molinaro:that I was definitely sweating. I'm always saying.
Enn Burke:All right, should we get into the episode?
Matt Molinaro:I'm ready.
Enn Burke:I'm the reCAPTCHA this time I'm and that's Matt Welcome to ripped from the headlines. And today we are recapping Season Three on lawn order. It's episode 18. Right. Yeah. The cake great. It is titled animal instinct.
Matt Molinaro:That was my animal sound.
Enn Burke:Was that a cat sound?
Matt Molinaro:It just felt animalistic of some type. Uh huh.
Enn Burke:This episode opens on two men jackhammering the sidewalk. And that's
Matt Molinaro:beginning to sound like it was different kind of movie.
Enn Burke:No. So they are. It's not about them, though. Like there's two security guards kind of walking behind them. Who are they're complaining about how it's a conspiracy. And I was like, Okay. Anyway, they had inside of a building. And I guess they're kind of like doing the security check. And we later learned that this building is part of the Manhattan Institute of Technology. So they're like, chatting with each other about like going and doing their security rounds. And he says like all start up on two. And then then there is possibly the wildest opening for Law and Order thus far and not not wild in the shocking sense wild in the liberal what, because what we see next is a staircase full of mice, live mice. And then they just keep walking past all of these live mice without really any puzzlement, x plus puzzlement or exclamation when there is probably a dozen rats on the stairs. And then we kind of go upstairs. And what we see is that this was a laboratory where there were rats in cages, and there is a woman lying facedown on the floor. She has been shot in the back, you know, she is clearly dead. Blood is all over the floor. And we also see spray painted on kind of the walls behind her the word in or the phrase innocent victims. So I think we're immediately kind of being given the impression that this woman might have been killed because of her work. That involves animal testing.
Matt Molinaro:Yeah, I just kept thinking, is this what lab rats would really be doing if they escaped, but they'd be like, surrounding her body like that?
Enn Burke:No, I think no, when they just get the hell out of there. I probably I don't even know. But What's so weird about it, is they almost staged it in a way that It looked like the rats were eating her DD. So I was very confused for a few minutes. Yeah,
Matt Molinaro:those rats are gonna leave bloody footprints everywhere. That's gonna be a nightmare nightmare to
Enn Burke:clean. All right, so Logan and Briscoe arrived and we learned that the murder victims name is Faye Walsh. She had been on the faculty for 10 years at this. I'm going to call it MIT. But I know MIT is a different school, but it's just easy for me. So MIT, she has been there for 10 years on the faculty. She was inventing patents and apparently was going to get like her patents were being were like worth something. So we kind of learned a little bit more about that later. So Briscoe says like, I wish we had a witness. And Logan says we've gotten plenty and maybe with a piece of cheese, they'll talk. So
Matt Molinaro:stupid cheese stands alone.
Enn Burke:The cheese stands alone. So we get the title sequence and I was kind of inspired by the opening sequence around cheese. So I bought a cow. I milked it churned for a few hours, aged for a couple of months. And just as I was enjoying a nice slice of Gouda, we come back and the episode has resumed I knew it was going to be good. Oh, well, good. That's my favorite.
Matt Molinaro:I knew you were gonna do good. I had a feeling especially you know, hello.
Enn Burke:And I don't know if anyone out there remembers all the things we've said that we do during the title sequence. But I kind of wonder if I've talked about cheese making before you know, I
Matt Molinaro:always note them down. Okay, back.
Enn Burke:Okay, okay. Okay. Okay. So now they are talking to a man who were is Fe Walsh's husband who says that he was out of town at the time of the murder, by the way, he appears approximately 0% upset and her death. I don't know if it's bad acting or character choice, but either way. Either way, they could have been talking to him about you know, a tax bill. Something along those lines. Yeah,
Matt Molinaro:he recounted things about her like it was just like a historical story he was reading, right? It's like,
Enn Burke:yeah, totally. So because of the like lab rat thing and the spray paint, they're they're heading down the line of inquiry of thinking that maybe an animal rights group was behind this murder. So they identify a piece of paper in there as belonging to like an animal rights group, or no, sorry, the husband tells them about all of these calls that they've been getting from these animal rights groups. And they get four or five of these types of calls a month. This morning, even there was a message on the machine. And he said, It's so profane that I erased it because I didn't want it to upset fe. So they asked kind of like where he was during the time of the murder. And he says that he was on his way to the Jersey Shore. Because they have a house up there. And he is kind of like I should have made her come along. He says that Faye was always at work, she was a workaholic, she always got this hate mail, but it you know, didn't deter her. And so he is kind of like pointing the finger toward those animal rights groups. Right? And he again, doesn't care, doesn't care at all. Literally never once like asks a question to the detectives about the case. Like who killed my wife? That question is never asked.
Matt Molinaro:No, he was more like, I see. I knew this happened one day. She works with animals.
Enn Burke:Exactly. Okay, so they head down to the headquarters of the animal rights group that had been apparently harassing Faye for the last few months or years, however long and they talked to a woman there who they're like, alright, we your slogan innocent victims was spray painted at this crime scene. So did you have something to do with this? And she, of course, is like, No, our organization has nothing to do with any of these, like anybody who takes these kinds of actions. Or like solo actors. We don't condone them, but like, we think they're effective. Essentially, it's kind of like what she's saying. So they asked her for a list of members. And she says sure, and she opens a file cabinet and tells them that there are more than 10,000 members of her organization 2000 of which are in Manhattan, so doesn't really help them narrow down suspects at all. Not at all. Back at the station. They are kind of combing through this list, though, to see if anything stands out. And craigan says that last year that B and C pharmaceuticals was firebombed, and innocent victims was spray painted there as well. And there was a man who had been connected to those three bombings, and his name is Dirk Chesney, and he was a dropout of the Manhattan Institute of Technology, which is where the woman was killed. So they think maybe He had access to the lab still because of his time as a grad student, and maybe he he killed her. Yeah, so I like that he sounded very enthusiastic. So they head to his apartment. The apartment manager just immediately lets the Logan and Briscoe into his apartment. Inside there are about three dozen cats. They're complaining about how bad it smells the they see a fur coat hung up on the wall and on that fur coat is spray painted innocent victims. They find a book called the anarchists guidebook, which I'm assuming is just a reference to the Anarchist Cookbook, right? Oh, yeah, probably. While they're searching around, he comes into the apartment and they go dirt Chesney, and he tries to run but they chase him down, they grab them, throw them against the wall, and they pat him down, and Logan pulls out a gun from Dirk Chesney's back pocket, which he touches without gloves, and then hands it to Brisco, who also touches it without gloves.
Matt Molinaro:There's so much bare hands and touching of evidence in this episode.
Enn Burke:I noted it every time it happens, because there is a lot of it, there's a lot. So they take him down to the station. And he gives kind of an eye rolly performance of being this fanatical animal rights activist. Acting all self righteous. Brisco I will say has a really good over the top eye roll in response to his answers, which I really enjoyed. So he talks about like all the animals that MIT has killed over the last few few years, but he says you know I didn't kill her. Just don't expect a sympathy card from me. And they're like, all right, where were you at the time of your of the murder and he was in with his acupuncturist. So he has an alibi. Cragin knocks on the the window to kind of get them backstage to talk to Logan and Briscoe and tells them that the gun that Chesney had is not a match for the bullets that killed Faye Walsh. What killed her was a small shotgun, which Logan is like how did somebody walk into a secure building with a shotgun and nobody noticed? But what we learn is that it's a small shotgun that is used to collect specimens for museums like being able to shoot and kill a bird without damaging it so that it could then be displayed, I guess.
Matt Molinaro:Yeah, I didn't know that was the thing. I did neither.
Enn Burke:So they think maybe the gun that killed Fay was actually in the building. So they head down to MIT to see if there are weapons stored there. And sure enough, that lab stocks a shotgun specifically for the purpose of collecting specimens. I'm not sure that I mean, I guess I was in the social sciences. So I wasn't in like, lab lab labs. But I would be really surprised to learn that there are guns in the hands of researchers out of university.
Matt Molinaro:Right. Don't you think that would be an outsourced type of thing?
Enn Burke:Yeah, I would think so. So the a man there who is named Dr. Wall or sorry? It's Dr. Walsh. Right? The husband? Yes. Yeah. Okay. So he also works at the school. And he takes them to the cabinet where the gun is held. And he opens it and says like, well, the gun hasn't been checked out for weeks. So this can't have been what killed her. But he opens the cabinet and immediately starts to reach for the gun and they're like Papa, and they stop him before he grabs it. And Logan grabs it with a cloth. And then Logan, you know, like breaks the shotgun open, sniffs it and says smells like it was checked out last week. Again, I don't have much firearm experience. I have none. Actually. I've never touched a gun period. That seemed convenient to me.
Matt Molinaro:I mean, what did you smell? Gunpowder,
Enn Burke:gunpowder. But wouldn't I mean, does it? Can you? Do you think someone's senses are finely tuned enough to smell the difference between a shotgun that's been fired yesterday versus a shotgun that's been fired three weeks ago?
Matt Molinaro:Oh, yeah. Right. No, no, I guess he was saying it hasn't been checked out at all. So there should be no gunpowder smell. Okay,
Enn Burke:that would make much more sense. Okay. So they head down to the admin offices at the university to find out who has access to this cabinet because they're pretty confident they found the murder weapon. So at the admin offices, they talked to a woman named Susan Boyd who is played by the actress Frances Fisher. Do you know her?
Matt Molinaro:She looked really familiar but I didn't know where I know her from.
Enn Burke:She is roses mom. on the Titanic, she's been on True Crime house of sand and fog that she was on the guiding light for five years. And a bunch of she's on watchmen on HBO. So cool.
Matt Molinaro:I recognize her as roses mom from Titanic, even though I'm not like a big Titanic fan. But as soon as I said that, I was like, Oh,
Enn Burke:yeah. So she is Susan Boyd. And she tells them that, you know, a lot of people have access to this cabinet, including all of our graduate students, because we'd want literally she says, we want them to be able to check out the gun in the middle of the night so that they don't have to wake up a professor to get it unlocked. No. Why? Why do you think a graduate student should, should have a press up such a pressing need to check out a gun in the middle of the night? This was like, this was the biggest plot hole to me, that is so stupid. That makes no sense at all. None. So she kind of tells them that Faye was really unpopular with the students. She wasn't really interested in teaching. She was just there for the research. And, you know, she had a bunch of patents. She was always being wooed by, you know, capital, investor type people. And so he she's like, You should look at her students to see who might have killed her. So while they're searching her office, Logan finds a piece of paper that is has the name of a private investigator firm named rigs, investigative services. So they're like, Well, maybe she knew something about somebody who was harassing her and hired a private investigator to find out who it was. So they go talk to him. And he says that Faye was a smart woman. It's a shame she was killed. But he says that he stopped working hurt for her a few months ago, because she had hired him to find evidence that her husband was cheating on her. But he said he never caught the husband in the act. He said there were like all of the signs of an affair, like a lot of calls that would hang up a lot of messages and that type of stuff. So he says I never was able to get evidence of him being with her though. Yeah, but he says that there were tape recordings that he had, where there is a woman saying, Donald okay. Let me just tell you, Frances Fisher, by the way, I think she is possibly the best guest star actor we've had on law and order so far.
Matt Molinaro:Elaine Stritch. Oh,
Enn Burke:okay. I guess we also had, we also had Kelly Bishop from Gilmore Girls who was pretty great. Yeah,
Matt Molinaro:she was she was great. This one. Yeah,
Enn Burke:she was a really good actor. On the tape is Susan Boyd, who is played by Francis Fisher, saying, Donald, you promised me you know, we can't be together until we're rid of Fe. The sooner the better. There's no reason to be afraid, sweetheart. I love you. I'm with you. And so Logan thinks, Okay, they were having an affair. The husband obviously killed Fe to so that he could be with Susan. He's a professor at this college. So he had access to the cabinet. And we learned that because of her research patents, she was likely to become pretty wealthy if these patents paid off. And the husband would have gotten nothing if they divorced. But he would have gotten money if she had been killed. Right, right, because he inherits her estate. So we head back to the husband who denies knowing anything. He's like, I've I don't know what you're talking about. I have no I don't know. I've never dated Susan. I don't know what you're talking about. And they're like, We know everything. Your wife hired a private investigator to investigate your affair. And he's like, no, like, I loved Faye. I was not having an affair. He says that every time he looked at me, he could see that. This was gross. It was meant to be romantic. But it was gross. I could see the grad student who walked into my office 15 years ago. That's gross, because significant power imbalance there. Right. Right. But clearly, he's telling them that he really loved his wife. But he knew Susan because Susan worked in the admin offices at the university. And he knew that Susan was attracted to him. But he says he refused her like we've never been together. He says that Fe and he had discussed Susan and that figured that if they let it that if he just like let it go and ignored it, it would resolve itself. So while we're there though, Logan spots a flight ticket, an airplane ticket that is just conveniently sitting out on on a table, and it's for a flight to Boston and he goes live in town. And he says, Okay, this was another moment where I was like, no, what are you doing? He says, My friends have been telling me I need to get on with my life. She died yesterday.
Matt Molinaro:The way they treat the victim in this case, at all is like completely an afterthought. It's so strange, like nobody really seems to care. Everyone's just into this juicy. Did he or didn't he? Yes, like exactly on his wife.
Enn Burke:And which, by the way, dead. But yes. And what's weirder about it is like I could get like, I think they were trying to give the audience a suspicion of like, Oh, he's leaving town data. Of course, he's trying to cover it up. Spoiler alert, we ultimately learned that is not the case. And so this wasn't a lie, which means he actually has friends who the day after his wife was murdered, told him, You need to move on which you need to find new friends.
Matt Molinaro:Especially if you're all like I love my wife. Yes,
Enn Burke:it made no sense. So he says he's heading to Boston for a lecture that meanwhile, they've gotten Susan Boyd's phone records and they see that there were five calls to Walsh that were answered the night of her murder, including one that went on for 26 minutes after the murder. We learned that Susan Boyd also called the Marymount hotel in Boston, which is where the husband is staying. So all of this is adding up for Logan and Briscoe as this is a conspiracy. You know, one of them killed her so that they can be together, blah, blah, blah, right. And then, in interrogation, they bring Susan in for interrogation because they think that one of them killed her. And she says, This is crazy. Dr. Walsh, and I work together, that's all. And Logan talks about the private investigator. And she is like, how would he have turned up all this? Like stuff about you haven't called the night of the murder or whatever. And she says, Well, if you pay someone enough, they tend to see things that aren't there. She doesn't know anything about the murder she claims. And they tell by the way, we get kind of a split up in the dynamic duo. So we've got Logan in one room with Susan Boyd. We've got Briscoe in the other room with Dr. Walsh, the husband, Logan, tell Susan that, you know, your your boyfriend, Donald Walsch, you know, he's gonna go to jail for this and you're gonna go down with him and it's gonna be 25 years to life like, Are you sure you want to stick to this story? But she insists that I have nothing to do with killing Faye. They ask about that, but they've kind of like caught her in a lie already. Because they find out like earlier on she said that she was not in a relationship with Donald and now she says she is. So they're like why are they do lie about that. And she explained she thought they would come to the wrong conclusions. So she lied about it. Meanwhile, in the other interrogation room, Briscoe is interrogating Dr. Walsh, and he says, You know, I never I don't know, says employed, I don't have anything to do with her. And they're like, what about this hotel room? You know, she's coming along on your trip. And he says, I didn't you are informing me about that. Like I did not know that she had added herself to my hotel room by claiming to be my wife, which is really creepy, but super creepy. And cut back to Logan and Susan and he asks about the night of the murder and she says that Donald and her were together in her apartment. And she said it was an anniversary of us being together for three years. And he says he gave me this bracelet and shows the bracelet that she is currently wearing back in the other room. Briscoe asks Dr. Walsh, why were there five answered calls at your apartment if from Susan Boyd if you were at the Jersey Shore like you claim to be and he's like, I was at the Jersey Shore like I told you like these are meant I got a ton of messages and I deleted them because they were so obscene. He says I thought they were from the animal rights people. Which that doesn't really hold up later but it doesn't really matter. I you know, he's still saying loved my wife didn't kill her not involved with Susan Boyd. Meanwhile, the actor who is cast on lawn order as the person who walks into camera and hands them paperwork, does exactly that. And says that there's a record of a Faye Walsh buying the kind of bullets that she was killed with a week later. Again, we because she was a workaholic. We learned that she hadn't like left the city for five months and And the bullets were bought in Jersey. And so they're like, wait a minute, how was this true? How would she have bought bullets in a different area? And they would be the ones to kill her. So they're thinking now, maybe somebody's impersonating Fay.
Matt Molinaro:I mean, I was when that happened. I was like, come on.
Enn Burke:Yeah. So they arrest them both for like murder and conspiracy. And in so we're on the order side. Now, in a meeting with Walsh's lawyer and the DA is Walsh's lawyer says that he's going to get this recording, excluded from evidence. And his his line of reasoning is that Susan had a reasonable expectation of privacy and this, this shouldn't be allowed as evidence because of that. Ultimately, he is successful in arguing this case, because he says that, yes, she left the messages. But it was intended for a single person to hear. And so the judge says, Yeah, we're not going to admit that into evidence because she did have an expectation of privacy. Yeah. So they go and speak with Susan, and again, try to convince her that Donald is going down for murdering Fay. And without her cooperation, so will she and this apparently kind of scares her enough that she says, okay, okay, Donald did talk about killing Faye. But she never like really thought he was being serious about it. She thought it was some kind of joke to try to like, show her how much he loved her. And she says she didn't think he would actually kill her. So she's like, Okay, I'll testify against him. What a fun joke. Right? Haha. So they asked her about the bullets. And she says that Donald had told her they were for hunting. And yes, she was the one who bought them. But Donald had given her this false story of why she was buying them. So in court, they get the owner of the bullet store to talk about the purchase of the bullets. And to identify Susan Boyd as the woman who purchased them. The defense attorney, I will say compared to other defense attorneys in the show, this defense attorney actually appears somewhat competent. Like he's actually pretty shrewd compared to some of the others. I feel like we see. Yeah, yeah, definitely. Um, and he points out, like how many you get 25 to 30 customers a day? Would you really remember a single one instance of a woman coming in to buy bullets weeks ago? So he's kind of giving some shadow of a doubt, evidence here? Yeah. So stone is kind of realizing that they have to really get good testimony from Suzanne in order to win the murder case against Dr. Walsh. And so we get a scene of them prepping Susan for trial to make sure that she is answering all the questions properly. And the instructor like she's giving too much information, they say it like only give exactly what is asked nothing more. And they ask her, you know, like, Where were you the night of the murder? And she says, What should I say? And Stone says, I'll ask you the question on direct examination, you say you were home in your apartment. So on the stand, she says that Donald talked about murdering Fay multiple times. And stone implies that, you know, Donald would have benefited from his wife Pat wife's patents if she died, but not if they divorced. So giving motive. And the defense comes up and question Susan and says that, and she says like Donald was really proud of our relationship like he wasn't hiding it. And he says, Well, if that's true, why was the PII never able to get a photo of you two together? And Susan is like, well, maybe he's not very good at what he does. And the lawyer says, or maybe you're lying, which stone objects do but is overruled. This defense attorney says, Did you tell the police Donald who was with you the night or sorry, you told the police initially that Donald was with you the night of the murder? Now you're telling us you are alone. Were you lying then or are you lying now? So he's knocking her credibility as a witness at this point? stone objects again, he's overruled. And she says, Okay, fine. I was in my apartment alone. But then she like pauses and looks at Stone for like a minute and the defense attorney sees this. And he says, Did da stone instruct you to say that you were in your apartment? And she says yes. So in the judge's chambers, because everybody's pissed at this. The defense lawyers trying to get the case thrown out entirely. Because he's saying stone coached her stone is saying I told her how to say something. I did not tell her what to say. But it's kind of like a gray enough area that even though the judge believes stone. He says that her testimony is tainted. So he is going to instruct the jury to ignore Susan Boyd's testimony altogether. Sheesh, I have heard you. I know I always think about that. Anyway. So then we get deliberation and the jury comes back not guilty, because they still didn't present a strong enough case. And so then we get a scene with stone and Robinette and Schiff all yelling at each other about how they lost this case. And Robinette is kind of like, you know, I think Susan might have orchestrated this, like she, she agreed she got immunity in exchange for her testimony. And then she fell apart on the stand probably intentionally, so that then her boyfriend would be exonerated, and they could like live happily ever after. Which stone is like, if that's true, like, she is sharp as attack. Yeah. So Stone says like, if they were really together for two years there, somebody must have been told about this. So they kind of like start investigating and finding out or interviewing people that know her and him to see if anyone knows of them being together, and they can't find anything. But they do get a phone call from a judge in Newark, New Jersey, New Jersey, right, New Jersey near me. And he says that he has a history with Susan Boyd. And he recognized her photo from the papers. He tells them that Susan was married before she was married to the second violinist and the Philharmonic Orchestra. And he tells them that he that husband died in a car crash, and that she had come to work for him after her husband died. And so it's at this point that Robinette finds out that Susan Boyd is a lawyer who apparently graduated from Yale Law. But then he says that when she worked for him, she was deeply disturbed. He said one night they were just like working late on a case. They ordered Chinese food and he basically tells a story about how she started stalking him after that. And the real kicker we learned from him is she never even went to law school. But she apparently knew enough to fool a superior court judge and work for him for a year. That was one of the most implausible things in this episode to me.
Matt Molinaro:I don't know. I mean, you hear about this kind of thing happening, like people faking being doctors and stuff like that.
Enn Burke:Yeah, but I feel like, I feel like you could fake knowledge of law, but I feel like you wouldn't know the ins and outs of like, how do I file this motion? Like where do I you know, that kind of stuff? Like the procedural stuff? Yeah. Seems like it. I don't know. Anyway,
Matt Molinaro:she she dated someone to get the information or? Yeah, can someplace who knows, I guess.
Enn Burke:crafty. I guess. When you tell about the true crime, maybe I'll find out a little bit more. So the husband who supposedly died in a car crash is fake as well. So stone at this point is like, her whole testimony is staged, and he realizes that Suzanne is having some mental health issues. But of course, they do not say it that way. In this episode, there is a lot of sentences that just are like this woman is crazy. Yeah. So I don't love that. They speak with Dr. Olivet. And she explains to disorder called Iran, Romania, and that she thinks that Donald and she are having an affair, but she says like, I bet if you questioned her all you would like all the evidence that she would give you are things like he was giving me secret messages with the color of his tie that he wore that day and, you know, that kind of stuff. Yeah. Meanwhile, they get a warrant for her apartment in New Jersey, because she I guess still had the apartment out there. Inside of her apartment. They find photos of Donald everywhere, all the way to like baby photos. There's pictures of him with Fe where face face has like been burned out of the photo. They find a bunch of other stuff that's been taken as well, including, and this is where I noted it again. They find a box of bullets that match the bullets that killed Faye Walsh. And what what Brisco does in this moment, is he without gloves, picks up the box opens the box reaches inside pulls out a photo ID that shows Susan Boyd's photo, but with Faye Walsh's name and he's like He touches a bunch of the bullets as well.
Matt Molinaro:Yeah. And again, no gloves. And I also thought was interesting that that box was like under a like handkerchief. Yeah, not even hidden at all.
Enn Burke:No. So they go to arrest her and we get a scene in the DHS office with her lawyer. They are talking with her. She says Donald would never deny our love. We were we were together. It's very like the performance she gives in this moment is very there is no Dana there is only Zul from Ghostbusters. Like, it's very that vibe. And she is like, flipping her hair around and like preening when they bring Dr. Walsh into the room, and she looks at him and says, Tell them what we mean to each other. And he looks at her and says, I have never and will never have anything to do with you. And she says, Uh huh. I understand what's going on. They put you up to this, didn't they? And she says, Tell them the truth. And he says, You're a lunatic. And she says, I understand. You don't have to worry about anything, I forgive you. And then she shows stone the bracelet again, and says Why would he have given me this bracelet if he didn't love me? And then she opens her purse and says, Why would I have all these letters of him talking about how much he loves me? And she hands the letters to stone and the letter reads. Dr. Walsh, who will be working late in the lab this weekend because of the recent threats against my wife, please post extra security. I will be out of town signed Donald Walsch. So nothing about Susan Boyd. And then Dr. Walsh just leaves the room which again, his wife was murdered, who he purportedly loves. And that ends up being the true story of this episode. But he is sitting in front of the woman who murdered his wife, and he just leaves the room and is in like, there's no evidence that he is upset with her in any
Matt Molinaro:way. No, he's just like, oh, this is weird, because it's so weird. Yeah. Hey,
Enn Burke:so Susan's lawyer says that she's clearly incompetent to stand trial Stone says I'll plead her down to manslaughter, one, if she agrees to get psychiatric help. She refuses, says she's not crazy, I will not admit to, you know, this delusion. This is all a conspiracy that you're all in together to keep me away from Donald. And she says, prepare yourself, Mr. Stone, I'm taking charge of my own case. And then we get a little 10 months later. And Robin says what is like it's the DHS office. And Robinette is holding a thick stack of papers and says like, it's another motion from Susan Boyd. And we learned that she's been successful in like, determine like filing continuances, and delays and all that kind of stuff and appeals. And so they still haven't even been able to get to trial. And he doubts they ever will. Because this is now the 16th motion. But she is in custody in prison. And so stone is like, Oh, she's using the prison library to do all of this. And at this point shift says the truth is ugly. So we put our profits in prison. And Stone says Oscar Wilde, and shift says Charles Manson. And that's the end of the episode.
Matt Molinaro:Yeah, it was really weird. And there's like this, like weird grin on his face.
Enn Burke:Yeah, yes, exactly.
Matt Molinaro:So it's like, why didn't they bring that doctor in to see her way sooner than that? Just to have them say, I don't know who you are. You're crazy.
Enn Burke:I don't know.
Matt Molinaro:Maybe like the first thing you would do is be like, No, you're not dating. This was bring them in their room together and see what happens.
Enn Burke:I mean, I guess they figured like they wanted to play them against each other in the case. Yeah. So anyway.
Matt Molinaro:Well, could you okay,
Enn Burke:I guess we'll talk about it later. But I think this was one of the better Law and Order episodes we've watched. Yeah,
Matt Molinaro:it wasn't mad at it. Um, well, you're not going to find too much out because as I mentioned earlier, this was not based on any particular case. Did you mention that? Yes, at the very beginning, I think maybe,
Enn Burke:I don't think you'd said that. Oh, well, so I think I'm learning that.
Matt Molinaro:All right. So I'm going to tell you the story of Alison Botha. Okay. Should I know that name? Probably not, but you'll never forget it. All right. All right. So Alison Botha, is born on September 22 1967 in South Africa. Okay. She has an older brother Neil, who is about a year and a half older than her and her brother and her parents live a pretty ordinary life. Alison's parents end up divorcing when she's 10. And for the better part of her upbringing, she her mother and her brother lived together in a small town in South South Africa. Okay. She would do okay in school. Later on. She did better. She served as head girl at the Collegiate High School for Girls in Port Elizabeth. She never quite knew what she wanted to be when she grew up. She wasn't one of those girls who you know, had a dream job. Okay, amen. I mean, meaning there. Well, kind of, but not really listen.
Enn Burke:I feel like it's worth noting that I think one of the traps of capitalism is forcing us all to believe that we should have a dream job because Ideally, like, we like why are we dream? Why are our dreams about labor?
Matt Molinaro:100%? It doesn't make any sense. And who, like people who have dreams? I shouldn't say that. But a good portion of people who have dream jobs have dream jobs, because their parents told him that was the dream job to have, you know. Yeah, I think that's true for a lot of folks. Anyhow, she didn't really know what she wanted to do. After high school, she ended up spending four years, almost traveling overseas. And then she came home her mom was delighted, and she encouraged her to get some sort of backup career started. So she went to secretarial school for a year and you know, polished up her skills so she can land herself a job if she needed to.
Enn Burke:And what so now this is probably like the early 80s.
Matt Molinaro:Yes, early 80s. Okay, so she comes across pretty well as a secretarial candidate. She's confident and well spoken in interviews, and she lends herself a job as an insurance broker, where she ends up really enjoying a lot. Her co workers would describe the job as one they all looked forward to attending daily, they just like cracked each other up all day.
Enn Burke:Oh, I mean, it's nice when you have co workers that you like,
Matt Molinaro:right? All right now we are in December 18 1994. It's a really beautiful summer day because in South Africa, December is actually summer judging Oh, right. Right. Right. Right. So it's a beautiful summer day in Port Elizabeth, where Allison has now lived for quite a while it's she's 27 years old. And her friends recall spending the day with her at the beach. It was sort of picturesque one of those days you look forward to I think it was a Saturday and after the beach they make a short trip back to her house. And they want to have some fun play board games the pizza my kinda night. Yeah. Even said they played balderdash. Which is a game I used to have an MS balderdash is
Enn Burke:fun, right? Yeah, I love Balderdash, too.
Matt Molinaro:So she has this time with her friends and one of them didn't have a ride home. So She promised she'd give her friend Kim a ride home after the party and everyone left what she does. And when she gets back to her place at approximately 1am on Sunday morning, her previous spot that she had, which was like prime location had been taken, and it forced her to park further away. Okay. Allison's car would later be found abandoned with no sign of her inside. Wow, she cannot arrive home.
Enn Burke:So she was going. Sorry. So where was she parking? Was it like her apartment building?
Matt Molinaro:Yes. She lived in. Like they call them like flats. They're just apartments, you know? Yeah. And it was
Enn Burke:street parking. Okay, and it was for home not like at her job, correct? Yes. She was okay. Returning
Matt Molinaro:home after dropping her friend off after like the little get together. And her spot was gone. She's just like, Oh, crap. I gotta park further. That's it. She's her car's gone. She's gone. Okay, a 20 year old vet tech, who studied in a nearby town, which is called Pretoria. And I looked it up. It's also in South Africa. It looks like it's one of their capitals. They're like, yeah, capital. Yeah, he studied there usually. But he was on holiday in Port Elizabeth with some friends to picturesque sort of area, small town. I think. It's very picturesque. And look, it gives me like small town vibes and the videos I've seen and stuff, but it probably is a big town. Maybe it's like Santa Barbara small town vibes. But it's, you know, underneath Money, money, but yeah.
Enn Burke:Like that Santa Barbara, small town vibes under a bunch of money. Yeah.
Matt Molinaro:So this guy's named his vet tech, his name is this name comes up a lot. So I don't want to get too confusing. There's like three people with the same name in this story. And they're all very different and the name is Te and ti an, this one is spelled T I A n, okay. So we'll call him I'm just going to refer to him as the T in the vet tech. Okay. Okay. So T in the vet tech T and Ellard. He's driving on holiday. It's probably 230 in the morning. And he and his friends are on a long stretch of road in really dark, dark conditions. And they see what they think is an animal carcass on the street. So they slow down. And tea in the vet tech gets out to inspect the scene. And he sees it's not an animal carcass, it is the nude body of 27 year old Alison Botha. And I'm going to tell you now, you heard the content warning at the beginning. There are some graphic descriptions of what's happened in this crime. And I'm not going to put them in for sensationalism. I'm only including the ones that I think will really have a significant impact by including them.
Enn Burke:Like it's part of the explanation of the story. Yeah, I
Matt Molinaro:think so. I think it's important to know what actually happened to Allison. So Gotcha. Okay. She had been covered in stab wounds. She is covered in blood. Her throat was slit. And she's dissembled. One of this group in the car had a cell phone, which was unusual for the time because it was 1994. So it was a very brand new technology, very unlikely someone would be driving around with a cell phone. I looked at 1994 Cell phones up there even older than mine. What it's like literally looks like an actual phone. Like a full on handheld phone from the wall. Just yeah, with the curly wire and the biggest antenna like a walkie talkie. Yeah. But luckily one had them. Well, you know, and then they called and they called the hospital, or they called 911. And the hospital was reported they 15 minutes away. It took about 45 minutes to two hours to arrive. And I know that's a big span. Yeah, most of the reporting said 45 minutes to articles said two hours. So okay, somewhere between there and the police were called to the scene as well. Gotcha. When this occurred, police found two names were in in the dirt nearby to the scene, it was off off road in sort of a clearing. They found in the dirt, written two different names and it was fronds and tn not spelled the same as T and the vet tech. Got it. They also found blood all over the scene and the words I love mom written down and seemingly from someone's finger in the dirt. Okay. So it appears as though this crime happened off road. Okay, and then the victim might have written this with her finger before she passed away in found on the street, on the road, you know, so because of this at the time, the officer who came to the scene who was investigating it, his name was Melvin humble, he has someone in mind right away in custody, not too long before this was a man 26 year old from Detroit. And he was currently out on parole for sexual assault. Okay, so his rap sheet was he had not too long before this, assaulted a pregnant woman, I think in her home, and she survives. And then before that, he had raped a 19 year old student who also survived. The first survivor took a week to report after being threatened but she did report and she did have some details. And then the second ran down the stairs of her apartment following the attack or during the attack. It's unclear. But she gets outside and runs directly into a police van. Luckily, so she reports it right there in the scene. And that's why France was eventually arrested, but again, out on parole at the time of this crime. Okay, so France is brought into the office, he's read his rights, and he's arrested for attempted murder. And he asks, Why is this happening? What do you mean? And the officers has said to him point blank, because Alison is alive. That's right. That girl that they found on the road, disemboweled throat slit is alive. What? Whoa, she's still alive.
Enn Burke:That's astonishing. It is.
Matt Molinaro:When I came across the story, it gave me very severe like flashbacks to Mary Vincent.
Enn Burke:Yeah.
Matt Molinaro:The other survivor story that I think I heard on my favorite part of the first time.
Enn Burke:Yeah. Okay. If you if you want a story that is shocking, and a just a indicator of the survival instinct. Go listen to the My Favorite murder episode where they talk about Mehriban very early
Matt Molinaro:on and I'm telling you, this story interests you at all that story is definitely going to blow your mind too. So but this one is right right there with it. So Okay. When he finds out Allison is live, France, he shocked. He sits for a moment. And then he says there's nothing I could say. He removes a bloody ring from his finger, hands it over to the police officer and says this is Allison's. Now, before we move on, let's talk about the incredible survival story of Alison Botha and how she survived that night. Okay, one of the sources I had was a documentary called Alison it came out in 2017, I believe, let me just double check that Yes. 2017 It's available on Amazon Prime. It's about an hour long. It is incredible. She is narrating it. There's it's partially I like real world interviews and partially reenactments and terms. It's the documentarian. I didn't write down her name, but she creates it sort of like a storybook. It's very interesting. I highly, highly recommend it. And it's all firsthand accounts like beyond and trigger warning. That's why I want to be really clear about what she survived. Yeah. Just to remember when you hear the things, she survived it, so keep that in the back your mind. Okay, we're back to December 18 1994. This is when she returned back to her home to find that parking spot is taken and she has to find a further spot. She parks further away, no problem. But as soon as she turns her, puts her car in park. There, her driver's side door swings open, and she feels hot air from outside rushing in, and a man holds a knife to her throat. He says move over or else I'll kill you. And she doesn't know what to do. So she she just follows instructions moves to the side, he gets in the car shuts the door behind him. And now he's driving her car and they're sitting in silence. And she's in terror. Of course, he says to her, I won't hurt you. I just need to use your car for an hour. I owe some money and I just got to take care of it. So just you know, keep quiet, say nothing you'll survive. She hopes he's telling the truth. She's trying to tell herself he's telling the truth. He says his name is Clinton. And he says he asks her questions about her life, including like, does she have a boyfriend? And she says that in this moment. What ended up happening was she just got a false sense of security with him. Yeah, in that moment, shortly after he abducted her, ducked her and takes her car. He starts driving to like a sort of residential area. He pulls over and a second man enters the car in the backseat. Oh God, when she said he enters. She says that when he enters the car and she looked at his eyes in the rearview mirror. She knew right then she would not be going home. This is when her dream of maybe this was okay was being shattered. And it's not long before they just pull into a dark unlit area past where all the traffic lights are at the end of town. And after confirming with her that she won't fight. Simon forces her out of the car. And the person in the back follows. Okay, while outside of the car, he forces her to give him oral sex and then does the same. Asking her for feedback and demanding she say she liked it. He complements her throughout which we've seen with some of our other sexual assault cases, it's not uncommon to see this kind of thing and it's a huge mindfuck he kisses her. And then immediately afterwards, he rapes her. He finishes and he invites the other man who Simon addressed as teens are tn so this is the other team. Yeah. Yeah, this is bad tn. This is a violent offender tn his his name is spelled th e un. So Simon addresses the other guy teens and says, you know you should do Do you want to have sex with this lovely lady. He calls her and he says something filthy. And he says no, no, you have to talk to her like a lady. She's, she's a lady. Okay, it's now in the course of their conversation together that she learns that Simon's real name is fronds, because they slip in use their real names. Yeah. Is no Simon it's actually fronds so that Kate has caught up with who we're talking about tn violently begins raping her, and he chokes her until she suffocates. The last thing she remembers was losing air and then releasing her bowels. And then she remembers waking up on the ground outside. Above her was France, and he's stabbing her when she wakes up in the chest and in the stomach. Oh, my God. She didn't feel it. But she she remembers every moment and all together she was stabbed 37 times. Wow. Then afterwards, TN got on top of her and slit her throat after that happens fronds pushes him off and says, I'll take care of this. And he cuts her throat as well. God damn Yeah. One article said quote, Alison grimly recalled. All I could see was an arm moving above my face left and right and left and right. His movements were making a sound a wet sound. It was the sound of my flesh being slashed open. He was hurting my throat with a knife again and again and again. It felt unreal. But it wasn't I felt no pain. But it was not a dream. This was happening. The man was slashing my throat.
Enn Burke:I mean think Got she didn't pay, too and I guess the body because your whole thing probably in shock at that point, right?
Matt Molinaro:So much so much. Yeah, she's has her throat slashed a total of 17 times what? 17. Okay, she's. And it turns out originally the player was not planning on doing this. They were planning on killing her. They weren't planning on cutting her throat but during the whole attack. So during the whole attack, she overhears their conversation, and she realizes through the attack that while they're stabbing her, they're specifically aiming to damage her reproductive organs. Oh, God. And when they finished, and they thought it was all over, they watched her for a minute. Tn saw her leg twitch. And then they said, Okay, she's not dead. And that's why they got back on top and did the throat. She lay there on, she couldn't move. Her eyes were completely full of blood, but open and she hears their voices go further and further, she says, and then she hears their footsteps go further and further. And then they were gone. She heard the car drive away. So this is the point when she realized she feels hopeless. She thinks I'm going to die. So she traces the names in the dirt because she thought at least I can stop them from doing this to someone else, even though I'm that's, that, to me is in her darkest moment. When she thinks she's gonna die. As soon as they drive away. She uses the little strength she has she had had her throat slit 17 times. She has been stabbed 37 additional times, and she has been beat up and raped. And it's the middle of the night. She can't see anything. And she uses her finger. With the moonlight. It was a full moon that night. So with the moon light, she's able to trace the words Frunze, TN and then I love I love mom. Wow. So she says in this moment, she describes herself, the feeling of herself leaving her body and looking down at herself. And she wasn't far away. But she was looking down at her naked body laying there. And she remembers feeling like she actually had a choice in that moment. Like, I can stay or go. And she remembers to feeling this unbelievable urge to live and to live a life with better intention. And all of a sudden, she remembers feeling like she was back in her body and her eyes wake or her eyes jerk open and she remembers feeling herself lying there. But she can't breathe. Really. She's breathing out of her slice like open throat neck. Williams. Yeah. And she can hear the sound of her breathing. And that's how she knows she's breathing because she can hear the air escaping the wound. God, so she reaches down and she feels something slimy at her legs. And this is when she realizes she has her entire small intestine outside of her body entirely. She's totally naked, but her bloody diameter is nearby. And it's within reach. So she grabs it. She uses one hand to grab that denim shirt and hold her intestine into her body with one hand. And with the other hand. She's crawling and trying to get away. But she describes every moment she crawls and uses the one hand to crawl. She's getting weaker and weaker and losing vision. So sure. She just remembers thinking to herself, I want my mom to have answers. I don't want her to not know what happened to me. And so she resolves to at least try to stand up. So she gets as far as she could crawling as his head. With a lot of unexplainable effort. She's able to stand herself up with one hand, while the other hand is holding her organs in with her shirt.
Enn Burke:I just realized I was like digging my fingernails into my hands. Oh, you're
Matt Molinaro:not? This is not even. There's another Okay, so she pulled herself up to her feet and everything goes black. But she's able to stand up. She reaches up to her neck. And she says that her entire hand went into the open wound stuff. She realizes why she's seeing black with her throat being a muscle has severed in her neck and her head is lying back between her shoulder blades. She had to literally pull her head up and forward. And then she could
Enn Burke:see how is this a thing that happened?
Matt Molinaro:She is now standing with one hand holding her organs in with her denim shirt and the other hand holding her head in place and trying to just go step by step. Yes to nowhere she doesn't even know where she's going. She can't see anything. She remembers taking a few steps and then she can't remember another step. It feels as though something was moving her body because the next thing she remember she's standing in front of what Looks like a road because she could see the white lines reflected off of at the moonlight. And she collapses in the road. One car goes by, slows down and leaves her. It's very much like Mary Vincent. Yeah, another car stops sees this scene. And this is when Vet Tech. Tn comes upon her because of his training as a vet, oh, he's a vet. Yeah, he's able to tuck her exposed thyroid back inside of her body and keep her stable while the ambulance made its way there. He went in the ambulance ride with her. And he said that the people who were tending to her or treating her as though she was already dead, no one thought she was going to survive, and he had to, like, urge them to get there faster. Dr. David Coleman sees her right away, and he is so at the center of her wounds. And as a doctor who has been exposed to severe trauma, his whole career. He's been doing this for decades. He says there's never been something he's seen as horrific. Yeah, he says, quote, the sheer brutality, the ferociousness and the mindless destruction of a human really got to me. How could it not? Yeah. So he saw that her neck wound was from ear to ear and her trachea had been completely sliced through. She says, she had to have a tube inserted to aid in her breathing through the wound above her collarbone. And then he lowered the blanket or the, you know, the sheath and saw that to subelement. It was grossly contaminated by sand, charcoal and lamb chop, fat. And chop, yeah, just must have been just something in the area that she was in. Based upon the state of these wounds, he determined she'll never be able to bear children. Dr. Dimitri Angelo, was on staff that night. And luckily, he was both trained in as an ear, nose, ear, nose, throat surgeon and a general surgeon. So he was able to do both procedures, and he was confident he could do it. He is essentially a miracle worker. He says in the interview, doctors see a lot of things, blood injuries, but somehow that injury made a striking impression of severe cruelty on everybody. He noted that she had a steady hand when signing the surgery consent form, even dropping down her mom's number unsolicited on the form in that state that she was in. Now, he said people with such strength are difficult to find these days, he was shocked that she had the wherewithal she couldn't speak. But she was conscious enough. And she was able to write with neat handwriting. I've seen the picture of the handwriting. Wow. So the documentary does a really great job of talking about this meticulous meticulous surgical technique and the cleaning that went through. I highly recommend watching it. I'm not going to go into all that technical stuff. But here's a quote from that doctor, same doctor who just said the thing about the consent form, he says, I really don't have a scientific answer. Yes, we can debate and talk about all the academic stuff. We must accept it as a miracle. And Dr. Coleman, the first doctor who saw her he said, while he worked within he worked with the surgeon he said quote, I've always found it a cop out to ascribe things you don't understand to miracles. But this event most certainly has led me out of my strict scientific appreciation to believe that some things happen for a purpose. That's probably a good definition of a miracle. Wow. Wow. So after three hours in surgery, she survived the surgery. She spent three weeks in the hospital recovering before being discharged to live with her mother far sooner than anyone expected her to recover.
Enn Burke:I was gonna say three weeks seems awfully short for all of that
Matt Molinaro:three weeks in the hospital. She definitely had a lot of recovery afterwards, I'm sure which we'll talk about a little bit. Some of the miracles that the doctors described involving the injury specifically was that despite the severe neck wounds, the trachea was sliced, the esophagus was undamaged. And the blood vessels in the neck that go from the head to the brain, the head and the brain to so many other systems were not damaged at all and no nerves either. Despite having all the chest wounds she had there were no stabs that punctured a heart the heart or lung. The December element somehow managed to read happened with no infection to her whatsoever. No damage to her and her internal organs astonishing and the doctor was able to with his fingers like clean the entire small intestine it was not damaged just incredibly saturated with like dirt and rocks. Yeah. In fact, Allison leader characterized it as the miracle that her throat was slashed because she said quote, because I was suffocated. I could not breathe but when teens slashed my throat, he cut it open and I was eligible to breathe. Oh, okay, so a lot of really insane things happened that had they not happened she wouldn't have made it that first neck wound the things that he said were not sliced those nerves and vessels had they been she would have been dead in three hours. Yeah. So from Detroit. He is the person who picked her up in the front seat. Yeah, he's brought in based not only on the previous rape arrests, as I had suggested before, when I was burying the lead that she was still alive. But because she was able to help provide all of the details about both he and teens. Teens last name is Kruger he is 1990. Or
Enn Burke:like Freddy Krueger. Yeah, yeah. So
Matt Molinaro:she's able to identify both of them positively from a photo book style lineup where she's showing photos one at a time. And as soon as she sees one she's able to write write their name. Within seconds of seeing them. No, no doubt about it. Wow. Okay, so constables were given a message from the chief prosecutor and indicated that the case would be stronger if she was able to verbalize rather than pointing out to them and writing it down the suspects. And doctors thought it was kind of silly, but they understood the procedure, but they didn't want to risk pulling out the tube because they were horrified. It would jeopardize all the good work they had done the night before. Yeah, she heard this and she wrote down on a piece of paper, take it out. He removes the tube. And her exact words were. That's wonderful. My attackers were frauds and teens. Wow. They're both arrested, brought into custody immediately. And with the court case, pending every day continues to be a challenge for Alison, while recovering. Even at home with her mom, every day, she had to go to the doctor to have her wounds that were around her pelvis scraped until bleeding so that new cells could generate god, okay. plastic surgeries would follow in the years recovery. She wrote, she remembers being just quote, pain all day, all consuming. So she had a really hard time. And the way she describes it now she says it's manageable. And it's it's definitely gotten easier over time. And she's had very miraculous recoveries her trachea completely healed like nothing had happened to it. And while she still has some medical issues from the incident, it's mostly psychological now. So sure, the men indicated that they'd enter a guilty plea right away. I mean, he basically admitted to it went fronds in the office and had her ring, which was tested for blood and it was Allison's blood. So, you know, it didn't seem like it was going to be a problem to prosecute. But luckily, this case was handled really, really well, regardless of that fact. And everything was still investigated, documented and tested, regardless of the assumption that there were going to plead guilty, which is good, because they did not plead guilty or immediately. Okay, so Alison has to undergo a clinical psychology report, six months after this event. She remembers being prompted about her feelings that she hadn't even yet processed. And she said, you know, it was just way too soon for me to be in that kind of environment. She says, like, I wasn't angry, but I punched the pillow, because they told me to punch the pillow, and I was angry at them. So how do you expect someone to process that, you know, but I guess, you know, they have a court case coming. So they're trying to get everything, you know.
Enn Burke:Yeah. I mean, I guess the justice system doesn't really give a lot of gentle process of investigation doesn't Yeah, it doesn't really allow for a gentle hand experience. Yeah, survivor.
Matt Molinaro:Yeah. And that's why when I was researching this, things like this, these details are so important to remember, because you have to remember that as a survivor, in this case, Allison is pursuing her own justice. She's doing the work that no one would be expecting anyone to do, let alone someone who's recovering. And she's trying to physically and emotionally recover from everything that happened. And she's subjected to, you know, the usual necessary evils of an investigation, she has to constantly have her pubic hairs polled by police, different police officers at different times different locations, pictures being taken over genital area over time as it's healing, her naked torso, different places, different people investigations, and she always, always cooperated, though, because she knew it was hard. But she knew the challenges were going to be worth it because she wanted justice. And she didn't want this to happen to anybody else. And she promised herself that if she was going to live, she was going to make a real purpose for herself also cooperating with each other locally where the cops and the prosecution one landmark procedure change that came from this partnership between them in their care for Allison, was the decision to use a one way mirror to have the victim ID the suspects. Previous to this case, the victim or survivor would have to have their hand on the suspects shoulder and have a photo taken of them doing that to prove that they were identifying them So previous to though, you would have to confront your attack attacker and go close enough to touch them. And at the end, they're long enough for a photograph to be taken.
Enn Burke:That's truly horrifying. Yeah, I mean, this is all horrifying. Yeah, that adds a whole nother layer of horrifying.
Matt Molinaro:Yeah. And the officer Melvin who we talked about earlier, he cared so much for her. He didn't let this happen. And he suggested the one sided glass and from this moment on, he became the standard. Thank God. Yes. So Allison puts out a statement to the newspaper afterwards saying, quote, for fear of omitting any one of you from my heartfelt thanks, I have decided to attempt to thank you all collectively, each one of you who sent flowers, gifts, cards, thoughts, prayers, wishes and love, should know how they've added a smile to my face and warmth to my heart. I have life beautiful people and you have my heart. The media coverage was pretty relentless. Allison says this was actually the hardest part, not necessarily the trial, she said, doing the trial, but she was more clinical about it. And she almost felt like she was watching a courtroom drama, and she's like, which I love and I was like, You're one of us. But she says that the hardest thing was really the media attention. It lasted for years, there was no there was no break. And the papers were calling the boys, the Ripper rapists. And the trial began in 2005. I'm sorry, 9095 My bad I was gonna say why am I doing so the trial begins in 1995. Judge Chris Janssen recalls that during the trial while on the stand fronds was trying to intimidate him and the jurors by like giving them eyes and stuff. Both fronds and tans defenses, by the way, were that they were Satanists, and that Franz believed himself to be possessed by incubi. And they told him to do everything, including the tapes before this, by the way tea and also had a rape on his record before this, too. Okay. Both of the survivors in bronzes previous rapes testified at this trial to wow fronds really kept the satanists thing up. He even requested an exorcism while he was in custody, and a priest came by and performed one. Okay. During the exorcism, the priests wasn't fully convinced he performed it, but he wasn't fully convinced by the Satanist beliefs. He was mixing up the names of demons and it was determined that quote, neither do tois or Kruger belonged to any formal or informal satanic group, psychologist, ion Meyer testified that instead, they just believed in the, quote, ideologies of Satanism and quote,
Enn Burke:what No,
Matt Molinaro:they didn't, right, exactly. August 7 1995. They're both found guilty of multiple counts, I think eight counts each, including rape, attempted murder, and kidnapping. Frauds is sentenced to three life terms with no possibility of parole. Tn is sentenced to one life term plus 25 years with Nope. Eligibility for parole. The judge requested during sentencing that his report or recommendation or whatever the word for that type of document his that'd be typed up and be on their official prison record, which is not usually done. He wanted this done because he wanted it to be understood that no matter what, whether he lives or dies, anything, he never wanted them released. And he would always consider them a threat to society. Yeah, he's never done this before. He's never done this afterwards. Well, there was no more death penalty at this time very soon before this that was abolished in South Africa, it was considered unconstitutional. But he said that he would have considered it pretty strongly in this case. Okay. On his way out of the courtroom, TN said, so here I go. So fucky wall. Nice, right back. atcha. Right, right. Each boy had their own sort of childhood experiences. Neither was terrible. I looked into it law, I'm not going to get into it, because this isn't really about them. But there's no major traumatic event. Allison actually explains in some of her interviews, I've read that she's sought for a long time for reasons to understand. And our therapists kind of shared with her that, that sort of like human need to want to understand why things happen. It's understandable, and it's natural. But it's almost like you give them an out when you do that by saying, oh, okay, I understand. It's because of this. Oh, right. He had a hard time. So she sort of gave up on the idea of doing that she kind of agrees with her with her therapists on and I think it's smart to do that. So you're not going to find an answer. They're both diagnosed with some sort of psychopathy, psychopathy. Okay, the two of them. Who did this, they met each other because tn was 19. And he was hanging out at a liquor store that fraud zones. And one article said, quote, after the first words were spoken between Dubois and Kruger, it was probably inevitable that they would form a partnership to tois the conscience free manipulator Kruger The acceptance seeking and impressionable misfit in the book I have lived in the monster Robert Ressler argues that in such partnerships, one is the leader, while the other is the follower, inclined to be submissive and disorganized. The fantasies of both men are appeased by the crimes they commit together. And to quote, so that's sort of like that diagnosis of the two of them. Again, not going to get into anything else about them, because who cares about that at least? So some post conviction updates? Allison struggles with depression afterwards for quite some time she sees everyone else sort of moving on with their lives and justice is served and then now what you know, yeah, so one journal entry she shares said, quote, my stomach is painful all of the time, all of the time. The pain never goes away. I'm so tired of it. So tired of being someone who has to deal with this. I just want to be normal like I was before. I feel different from everyone else, and they treat me that way. Everyone is careful around me. Yeah. She does say that the wounds do heal with time both physical and emotional. Each year, it gets easier and easier. One reminder that helped her out of her depression initially was her belief that back on that fateful night, she had said to herself, quote, she says, you had to choose between life and death. And now you have to challenge yourself to once again choose life. And that helped her pull her self out of her level of depression she was in WoW. In 1995. She won the prestigious Rotarian Paul Harris award for courage beyond the norm, and feminine magazine's Woman of Courage Award. She was also honored at as poor Elizabeth Citizen of the Year, and she was asked by the Rotary Club to do a speech, and she had a real fear of public speaking, but she decided it was worth it. And it sparked a fire in her for public speaking actually. And that's what she's still doing to this day. She has led a podcast she has written two books. One is called I have life in 1998. The other is called for tough times Allison's survivor's journal 2002 That came out the documentary I mentioned, Allison depicts her story. And as I said, it's really beautiful. I highly, highly recommend it. And in other amazing news, she would defeat all odds, and on November 13 2003, she gave birth to her first son, Daniel Bosco with no complications, and followed it up by the birth of his brother in November 2006. Matthew Botha, perfect pregnancies, no complications. She loved being pregnant. Wow. Yeah. So officer Melvin, who passionately worked with her, he passes away in 2020, at the age of 63. From a heart attack, he leaves behind a very impressive resume and a really honorable legacy. In 1996, two years after the attack fronds, the attacker, his father dies by suicide as a result of his times actions and him not being able to cope with it. And 2015, both men, because of unrelated legislation, that passed, became eligible for parole
Enn Burke:stop,
Matt Molinaro:even though they were both sentence without parole. And the judge has that on file. Alison was not notified of this. Oh, you're kidding me? Saying, quote, I was not approached or guided at all. I have connections and the know how to find out what is going on. It's tried to change it. But what about all the others? What about people who don't even know where to start? Yeah, so with this new she struggles again, with anxiety and depression about the parole, in effect, her whole family, her kids don't really know too much about it. But her elderly family, her parents, her siblings, everyone goes through this all again. Now much older and and more fragile. She lives petrified for a while that they might get out. She says like I told my kids like Mommy was hurt by a bad, bad person, but the baddies are away. And now they might get out a woman in the US contacts her and says that her daughter, this woman and she's unnamed. She says that her daughter is engaged to fronds in prison. And he's all over social media. And he wants her help to try to put a stop to this because she's trying to protect her daughter and she reaches out. So Alison, who doesn't need to do anything. She writes to the authorities, begging for anonymity saying that what's going on? This is what's happening. He's on all of these sex websites and stuff that at all. She finds out the letter is printed and given to France. France reaches out to the documentarians in 2015 asking to be interviewed for the documentary, but he had two demands. You want to get a barf bag. Wine. He wants a letter of forgiveness from Alison signed to he wants profit shares from her book sales and speaking events backdated because he says I'm responsible for her success story. There Okay,
Enn Burke:I have no words for that.
Matt Molinaro:These requests are denied, of course, thank God and also denied their parole. Thank thank God so they remain in prison till this day, Alison believes and shares with people in over 40 countries to date that life is about the ABCs. She calls it attitude, belief and choice. And she says that she doesn't consider herself extraordinary. And I'm going to end with a quote from her on this. She says there aren't any extraordinary people. We're all ordinary people. But sometimes ordinary people can do extraordinary things with their lives. And I think that's just a really beautiful way to look at humanity and something to aspire to model for each other. Because I mean, you're someone who has been through this level of tragedy and pain and heartbreak and heartache, and horror, can choose to look at the world this way. I think that's really powerful. One of the articles had this resource that I want to share. I'm just gonna read the quote from the bottom of the article, it says, If this post brings up and in this case, if this podcast episode brings up any issues for you, or if you just feel like you need to speak to someone, please call one 800 Respect. That's one 807 37732. This is the national national sexual assault, domestic and family violence counseling service, it doesn't matter where you live, they will take your call, and if need be, they'll refer you to a service closer to home. And that is the incredible survivor story of Alison
Enn Burke:Botha. That is one of the most astonishing stories I've ever heard.
Matt Molinaro:I I like I was I couldn't find anything that was related to animal activism, really, that was very compelling. And so I was like, you know, we've done a lot of heavy things. I want to try to find a survivor story. And this was one of the first things that came up and I was just from the moment I read the first article, I was gripped. I mean, think about the minor inconvenience pains that we have and how much that sets us like completely behind in our, our everyday life schedules by like months or weeks. This girl was brutalized. The that's the reason I wanted to really highlight what happened to her because I wanted to highlight that she survived all of that, and has the fortitude to do amazing things. And she has children. And I forgot this detail. You want to hear something beautiful. Okay, okay. The guy who found her on the road, the vet tech tn Yeah, when he found her he describes this as like a life changing moment for him. And it caused him to want to become a doctor instead of about a veterinarian. Okay. At the birth of her second baby, he assists in the delivery stop, you want to scream.
Enn Burke:Can't even believe unreal.
Matt Molinaro:And another really cute thing isn't the end of the documentary. If you watch through the credits, none of the people who were being interviewed that hadn't seen Alison some of them in decades, knew that she was there. And then she pops out during the end credits and like reunites with each of them individually, and it's very tearful. The prosecutor is there, the original officer is there. He hadn't passed away yet. Both doctors are the it's really beautiful. So Wow. Yeah, just shows some terrible slices of life in the world. But how incredible bright light can shine through that. So
Enn Burke:yeah, Jesus Christ. That is some fortitude. Yeah.
Matt Molinaro:Well, here we are. What do we what do we think about the the episode and, and all of that?
Enn Burke:Well, I just want to say once once more what an incredible survival story.
Matt Molinaro:Yeah. Yeah. I mean, this episode probably gonna be a little bit longer than our usual ones. But I felt like it was worth it.
Enn Burke:Yeah, I mean, great job covering it. I'm glad I heard her story. What, what an inspiration. Yeah,
Matt Molinaro:it's really just like, I was watching some YouTube sort of interviews with her today. She's done a lot of press. And there's quite a few podcasts or YouTube channels that have covered her story in the past couple of years. It looks like I was just watching a few of them. And Davy was overhearing some of it. And he's like, What do you what's going on? And I told him, like the brief thing, and he's like, we're watching that documentary. I don't care if you watched it. I'm watching it again with you. Tonight, but yeah, um, so.
Enn Burke:Wow. Okay. Well, for the episode, I would say that this was one of the more watchable episodes so I'm going to give this a b. Okay. I'm going to say obviously, it didn't really deal with the case. So how it dealt with the subjects that dealt with, I don't know, I'm not a psychologist. So I do not know how accurate the depiction of irata Mania is, was in the episode. So that would be my kind of like, question mark with that. And, again, the I think important kind of like media literacy thing to take away from that is also that often I feel like the sort of romanticized stalking that we see in media is like, women. Yeah. And so I when that is far less common than violence against men, yeah, are far less common than violence against women. So yeah. If if it dealt with irata Mania act accurately, I would say, be it. I didn't notice anything else. terrifically problematic in this episode, like some of the others. Yeah,
Matt Molinaro:yeah. I actually gave the washability same thing I gave it to be. I thought it was a good one. Yeah. And I thought the acting was great. I really, really enjoyed that actress a lot. Yeah, she was phenomenal. Her her love interest. On the other hand, the worst acting I've seen in weeks, but yeah, and then for the crime, it the way it dealt with the crime aspect of it. I guess I'm gonna give it a see because I think what you said hit it on the head that this is not the usual the way this goes and to sort of suggest that it just kind of pushes the narrative of the jealous crazy woman crazy woman. Yeah, there was a lot of irresistible man who looks like a thumb, you know? So. Yeah, so yeah.
Enn Burke:Wow. Hey, if you enjoyed listening to this, and would like to show your gratitude, we would love it. If you would write us a review and subscribe to our podcast.
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Enn Burke:Yes, and our social media is read headlines on Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram. Our email is ripped headlines pod@gmail.com. And we love getting emails. So please feel free to send a note even if it's just to say hi.
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Enn Burke:Yeah, and a percentage of our Patreon proceeds gets donated to the Equal Justice Initiative. So by supporting us you are supporting positive change in the world. II Yes.
Matt Molinaro:And thank you so much for listening to rip from the headlines where you get some some of the facts. We get all the facts and some fiction.
Enn Burke:We'll see you next week and until then standard, the headline bye