Ripped From The Headlines

Cookies and Crime

March 31, 2022 Enn and Matt Season 4 Episode 2
Ripped From The Headlines
Cookies and Crime
Show Notes Transcript

In this week's Law and Order, (S04 E02) Volunteers, we get a story of a neighborhood and criminal justice system, that really doesn't cater to those experiencing homelessness. Enn takes us through the episode, which guest stars Dennis O'Hare, and then Matt recounts the story of Larry Hogue that was it's inspiration. Given the moniker The Wild Man of 96th Street by the press in the 90s, Larry is indicative of a much larger issue - Where do you land on these topics?

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Voiceover:

In this true crime law and order podcast, the episodes are presented by two separate yet equally ridiculous individuals, one who researches the actual crime and the other who recaps the episode. These are their stories.

Enn Burke:

Welcome, here we are. I was just editing our Patreon bonus episodes yesterday for the next like week or two. Uh huh. We're so funny.

Matt Molinaro:

We're funny, right?

Enn Burke:

We are, I really enjoy listening to our Patreon episodes. And so, listeners, if you're not subscribed to our Patreon, you should check it out. Because we review movies we play fun games. My brother so one of the episodes that just came out was one of our like, world's most famous games. Oh, yeah. And one of the nouns was beehive. And my brother texted me and he was like, How did neither of you think of Marge Simpson? was like, Oh, that's such a good that's. That's gotta be it. i Oh, she

Matt Molinaro:

wins. Would we say be 50 twos?

Enn Burke:

I think we did say be 50 twos?

Matt Molinaro:

Yeah, cuz you know what? They were a lot of bouffant more than Yeah, hives. Well, the redhead warm blue fonts.

Enn Burke:

I love the word bouffant.

Matt Molinaro:

Who does look good to the stage bouffant feet. I've

Enn Burke:

Yeah, um, so yeah, so our Patreon is patreon.com/and Matt, and if you enjoy our show, you should go check it out.

Matt Molinaro:

I agree. You absolutely have to. And I Speaking of Patreon bonus content, I saw a meme today that made me think we have to try to create some kind of Patreon thing out of this. It was like someone had tweeted, I just tried to write cookies and cream. And my autocrats changed it to cookies and crime. And it makes me wonder like who I am as a person. And I thought I saw some a House cookies in crime, not a podcast already, honestly, and be how could we make a Patreon bonus segment called cookies and crime?

Enn Burke:

I love that. That is so fun. I feel like that would be Imagine we got so podcast popular that Ben and Jerry's wanted to do an ice cream bar we have we would have to pick cookies and crime

Matt Molinaro:

that would Yes. And that would be the pinnacle, the pinnacle of all goals. And Jerry's wants to collab.

Enn Burke:

True. I mean, hey, listen, if you work at Ben and Jerry's, let them know we are open to being an ice cream flavor.

Matt Molinaro:

Tell Ben and Jerry? Yes. Oh,

Enn Burke:

I don't think I have anything new for you this week, I still have been watching 90 Day fiance. The other way, which is Americans moving to a country, another country besides the United States, and Matt, you've just got to watch it. It's truly, it's really fun for a couple of reasons. Like you get to as somebody who hasn't traveled a whole lot, like you get to see other countries, which is really interesting. And like see, both like the culture and also just like the geography and you know, the architecture and all that stuff. But then you have like an added layer of people trying to make a relationship work. And it's not. It's really more documentary style ish than, like reality drama. Yes. Yeah. Like the there's no, there's really no apparent like production interference. It's just kind of like, they'll ask them questions about like, what's going on and stuff like that. But it seems like

Matt Molinaro:

they're not being forced to go to like, charity events.

Enn Burke:

No, no, no, no, no, yeah, none of that. So anyway, check it out.

Matt Molinaro:

Do a lot of them. Is there a lot of success in addition to the mayhem? Well, that's

Enn Burke:

hard to say because some of them like, get married. And then like one of them will be like, oof, I haven't told her about this. And it's and it's just like, What are you doing? And several of the couples like the way that they argue with each other if anyone ever spoke to me that the way that many of these people speak to each other, I would never speak to that person again. Like they're being really level up. Exactly. It's It's wild. So.

Matt Molinaro:

Wow. All right. I gotta check that out. Yeah, I've I've got a couple of recommendations. Okay. One, I just watched it. It's on HBO Max. It's a two part documentary about the actress. Evan Rachel Wood.

Enn Burke:

Oh, yeah. The one who was married to Marilyn Manson and, and is now suing him for domestic violence, I think.

Matt Molinaro:

Yeah, in Sure. Yeah. She wasn't married to him. But she she dated him on an okay. Like, I think five or six years. Okay. I actually didn't know about the whole Marilyn Manson accusations. Yeah. But wow. I mean, it didn't shock me now that he was accused of this because he always came off. Aside from the whole, you know, shock value shock value type stuff. He always kind of came off as total misogynistic D bag Yeah. Even like interviews and stuff, you know, but wow, I had no idea how deep his manipulation and violence Oh, wow. It's like, it's it's next level. It's not just oh, he was, you know, a bad guy, like he branded women.

Enn Burke:

Oh my god yeah he like against their wishes I'm assuming

Matt Molinaro:

Well, you know they at the time they were doing it to appease him right, you know, right, right. Okay. There was like blood ceremony type stuff. And it's so funny like Richard would like since she has named him. So many other people have come out and including people in his camp, like not just the survivors, but you know, people who were on the road with him like men who so often stay silent on these types of issues. Yeah. And it's sad that they need this bolstering of this male audience to right, help support them and get support for them. But it's important. You know, there's a scene in the documentary when the first, like a man who was on tour with them comes out and says something, because the documentary is filmed before she names him. And so she's filming it up to the point where she, she names him as her abuser. Wow. And the scene when she first finds out that someone stands up for her, that was like a man on tour with her. She's just so overcome, you know what I mean? Yeah, it's, it's highly, I highly recommend it, it shows the, it just gives you a different perspective on if you don't already have one on what happens to women who are in these types of relationships and environments where on the outside, it might seem like, oh, you know, yeah, okay. He's just eccentric, and there's like, things of Nazi ism and stuff. It's Jesus.

Enn Burke:

Yeah, that's kind of wild. Because, you know, when Marilyn Manson first came out, there were so many religious groups that protested him, right. And all of it at the time, everybody was like, Oh, my God, like, no, like, none of this is it's he's not, you know, converting people to worshipping the devil or whatever. But

Matt Molinaro:

yeah, and it's not about necessarily devil worship, either, right? That was the big fear. And that's what kept people from understanding what was really going on to so it's just all orchestrated. And all hiding behind these maybe progressive ideals that are, you know, good. Like, don't don't just accept what people tell you challenge the system. It's all hidden behind that. And he's like, intense that erase it. It's terrible. Wow. That's why Oh, yeah. It's just two parts on HBO. Highly, highly recommend it. And then on the other end, we watched that bad, or I watched that bad vegan documentary on Netflix. Have you heard about it?

Enn Burke:

I don't think so. No. Oh, I've seen the preview, but I haven't watched

Matt Molinaro:

it. Okay. It's definitely controversial. Okay, it's hard. It's hard to decide how I feel about it. You have to watch it, because we have to talk about it because it's about that woman sarma, who had a vegan restaurant in the I think the early 2000s. And in Manhattan, okay, or Brooklyn or something like that. And it was like she was up and coming. And then the controversy on the outside was that all of her people weren't getting paid. It got kind of shut down. She went to jail. She flew the United States with her partner. And then this is sort of the unpacking of what was going on behind the scenes.

Enn Burke:

Do you mean fled the United States? What

Matt Molinaro:

did I say? Flew?

Enn Burke:

I was like, she got on an airplane. Okay. All right.

Matt Molinaro:

She flew the whole United States to the country. Yeah, but it's, it's supposed to be like, Oh, here's what what was actually happening behind the scenes from her own mouth. You know, how she was, everything was put on her. But here's really who was responsible. Okay, the first two episodes, I was suspending my disbelief, a lot about, you know, how it was being portrayed. And all of that by so three and four. I don't know how I feel anymore. Oh, really? Okay. Yeah, I think in my opinion, there's a lot. I'll let you watch it first, and then we'll talk about it. All right.

Enn Burke:

All right. All right. I'll try to watch it sometime this week, so we can talk about it next weekend.

Matt Molinaro:

Definitely worth watching for sure. Okay. Great. That's all I got besides the episode.

Enn Burke:

Great. All right. Well, speaking of the episode, this is season four, episode two of law and order. It is an episode titled volunteers. So this episode opens on like, a couple who is like practically fucking on the doorstep of a restaurant. And then like they move three steps and are repeating that same making out taking clothes off type vibe on top of a car, so they decide instead, let's go have sex in an alley. But before that while they're on top of a car while they're on top of the car, like a Van Halen video, like a disembodied arm comes off of screen and like shakes a cup in front of their faces. And it's a homeless guy who is asking for, you know, money. And they like, dismiss him and then go continue their makeout sesh slash impending fuck Fest in an alleyway. And in the alleyway, the guy is like starting to address the woman and she's like, No, there's a there's a guy right there. And he tries to like, kick the homeless man awake and like be like, Get out of here. I want to have sex in this alley.

Matt Molinaro:

It's just another area if you're an exhibitionist,

Enn Burke:

honestly, honestly don't don't lie to the person who is asleep. So but he kicks him a few times, and he doesn't move. And then he sees that he's all covered in blood. And I think the Woman screams but we cut to the hospital, where Brisco is on the scene, talking to the doctor who had treated this man who and we learned essentially, He's still unconscious, but he is alive and it looks like he will make it and the doctor tells Brisco that the man was hit with a pipe or some kind of metal implement that had like grooves on it because it left like crisscross marks on him. And then Brisco and Logan go through the clothes have the man to kind of see while he's unconscious like what what can they learn about him? What can they learn about who attacked him? And I feel like the writers didn't really know what a person experiencing homelessness would carry in their pockets. And they got it confused with like, boy from like a mad comic book or like from the 1950s because in his pockets they find a piece of string, a broken pencil, some paper clips, and I was like what what like what paper clips really

Matt Molinaro:

well, it this is for either a child's lunchbox on an adventure running with your home or MacGyver.

Enn Burke:

I was just gonna say a child who is enacting MacGyver but they do find a crack pipe and they're like, oh, and Logan stiffs it really close. It's just strange. Yeah, Luke is really into sniffing Have you noticed that He sniffs guns,

Matt Molinaro:

I have cracked pipes. He always gets real close. He does.

Enn Burke:

But in the pockets, they also find a card for Friedland, psychiatric, and they also find several $1,000 worth of cash in his pockets all in 20s we get the title sequence and I had a couple minutes not as long as we used to so I've been doing some more sewing and so I you know quickly drafted out a pattern for a ball gown and cut out all the fabric and the lining pieces. And by the time I finished putting it together and like hand sewing on some beaded embroidery, we were back I

Matt Molinaro:

would have enlisted the help of little mice and birds do that.

Enn Burke:

Honestly. Back at the scene they they find in his in the man's belongings a Dior night gown 90 with price tags on it in his belongings. And they're talking to the beat cops who are kind of like familiar with the area, but they don't really have any helpful information for Logan and Briscoe on this man. But they do find it like this is the next day and they find the rebar that they think is like the weapon that was used to assault him. Would you think they would have gone in check that out prior to like that daylight next day?

Matt Molinaro:

Right? Don't you think that would have been found on the scene when they you know, secured?

Enn Burke:

I would have thought but anyway, they find it and they're like, Oh, this is gotta be it. There's blood on it. And for once they're actually wearing gloves when they handle it. So congratulations. And they talked for a bigger budget. Yes, Season Four had enough budget for rubber gloves. They talked to the homeless guy who like shook the cup at the couple who was making out on the car. And he says that the man's name was his last name was Kirk. Kirk is the man who was assaulted. So they decide to you know, this happened in an alleyway. So they go and talk to the folks who live in the apartments above the alleyway. And we get a couple of kind of like random interview clips from folks a lot of women wearing like Topsy tails and big bangs. And they say they didn't really see anything but they're really familiar with Kirk. Oh Roland does his first name. There you go. Very familiar with him, because he's a big nuisance to the neighbors. One of them refers to the like alleyway is like Calcutta. Oh no, he's saying New York is like Calcutta people are just like dying in the streets. And at the station. They talked to to Van Buren, and they're going over his record and information on the rebar. But there's no prints on the rebar. And they're kind of trying to decide like, do we keep investigating this or not? Mm hmm. Essentially, like the question of like, does a homeless person or a person experiencing homelessness deserve police or investigative attention? Right. VAN BUREN tells them to go investigate the friedlin psychiatric facility because he had that card in his wallet. And they think, oh, maybe he had if he was a client of theirs or went there for services. Maybe he had a like medic card for like free medicine or discounted medicine and they think maybe somebody stole it. This is kind of a weird leap in logic, like they they think about a card that they don't even know if it exists and create a story that somebody else stole it from

Voiceover:

him. Right. Okay.

Enn Burke:

So they go and talk to George, who is the the homeless guy who shook the cup. At the couple, we learned that he is the one who has Kirk's card. And he says that Kirk gave it to him a long time ago, he didn't take it from him. But he used to go and use it to this is another moment where I was like, huh, he tells them that he used the card to go and buy a bunch of lithium and then sell it. Which I mean, I guess that's it's possible, but it just seems like a psychiatric facility probably wouldn't give away large quantities of lithium for for somebody to sell, you would hope. So, he would hope I mean, I'm probably totally wrong about that, that probably is pretty common. Okay, so they head down to the Psychiatric Center. And we learned that Kirk was kind of routinely brought in assessed and released when it was determined he was no longer a danger to himself or others. But they also tell Logan and Brisco that he has a sister named sherry. So they go and talk to her. She works at some shop, and they're like, why would your brother have? Do you know, who could have done this? You know, what's the story and she basically tells them that they don't weren't really in touch much. And she doesn't know why he would have so much cash. But she thought it was so weird, because a couple weeks ago, he gave her a check for $100 for a doll that he broke when they were kids, but she just assumed the check was worthless. They asked her if she still has the check. And she does. And so they use that to track down the bank where that check would draw upon. And at the bank, they find out that Kirk, the man who was assaulted has a bank account with like $15,000 in it. That's the trustee of the account is a man named Richard girl edge. And he is a mental health legal advocate. So they go talk to this guy. And what they essentially learned through this conversation is that there were the people in the neighborhood where Kirk kind of like lived in the alleyway. There was a block Association who trying to get him like committed and this mental health legal advocate says that this block association was harassing Kirk. So they go and talk to the kind of like head of the block association to find out you know, what, what did you do to Kirk that would have resulted in like a multi $1,000 settlement. And this woman is like, listen, we he's the one who harasses us, and then we can we get she's like last time it happened. The police told us to videotape it. So then we get like a videotape of Kirk the man who was assaulted, and he's kind of like harassing and screaming at people on the street. Uh huh. He like jumps out of a bush out a couple and scares them. We also learn and there's a scene where he's doing like an erotic dance thing. That's very strange. But we also learned that in addition to like, these general like screaming at people things he I don't know how recently but semi recently, like pushed a child into into traffic. Yes. And the night that he was assaulted. He had actually mugged one of the residents of the apartment building and we learned that he actually like tore her rotator cuff when he like snatched the bag that she was carrying off her shoulder and the bag had the Dior nightie in it. This couple by the way, when they kind of like talked to the couple of the woman who was assaulted and her husband, they're like, You were mugged and you never called the police. And they think that's very strange. But the husband is like you we've kind of just kind of given up calling the police about Kirk the car As the police don't do anything like he just keeps getting taken and then released and the harassment continues, right. Meanwhile, Logan and Briscoe learn that Kirk is out of his coma. So they go to the hospital to talk to him about the night of the assault. And he says that a bald woman in a flower dress jumped on him and kissed him. And that's who he thinks attacked him. And they're like, so, bald woman wearing a flower dress attached to you. And the doctor thinks that he's likely, you know, he was possibly high at the time. So he's kind of like, got his memory a little bit muddled, but he thinks like that this probably he's like remembering the paramedics giving him mouth to mouth.

Matt Molinaro:

Right, which I thought was kind of a strange leap. Yeah,

Enn Burke:

it was weird. Back at the station, Van Buren tells them to find out like, Okay, you're kind of coming up without much information here. But go ahead and look into the block associations, meeting minutes and see like, who were the hot heads in the block association that complained about Kirk and so they get those Association minute meet meeting minutes and read through them. And Briscoe comes across a woman named Mrs. Bundy who had complained six different times that Kirk was keeping her awake at night. But they had already talked to her and she had said to them, that she she never heard anything from the alleyway. So they go and question her and are like, wait a minute, you told us that you didn't hear anything. But in the meeting minutes, you've complained six different times about him keeping you awake. And she was like, Yeah, I just didn't, didn't really want to get in trouble. I didn't really hear anything helpful. But she said that she heard voices. And she looked out the window the night of the attack, and she saw two men entering the alley. And one of them was Dr. Creighton, who is a another resident of the apartment building right next door. But she says I didn't really see anything wrong. They go and talk to Dr. Crighton. And he says that, oh, she must have mistaken me. She's an old woman. She got bad eyesight. It was late at night. It was I wasn't there. But he is the person who he is the parent of the child who was pushed into traffic by Kirk and so they think, and he's also bald, and he also has a robe that I think has kind of a floral print on it. So they're like, oh, maybe he's the person that Kirk thinks is the bald woman who attacked him. Or maybe he was performing CPR on him because he's a doctor. Right? So they get a search warrant for his apartment and in the apartment, they find blood on a pair of slippers. And they are wondering if this is enough information to bring him up on arrest charges. Or arrest him on charges of assault or you know, some other charge but the ADA whose name is

Matt Molinaro:

Kincaid Kincaid, what do you think of the new ADA and the new Lieutenant?

Enn Burke:

I like the new Lieutenant ADA Kincaid. I I'm reserving judgment on she has a little bit of the remember that first season where like there was a lot of people with just vague theatrical accents. She has a little bit of that going on sometimes. Okay, so, but I liked her. I liked Robinette, though. So yeah, it's too bad to see him. Did he go to anything else? Or did he just quit or like leave law and order?

Matt Molinaro:

I think he left law and order and I think he just did some other kind of project.

Enn Burke:

Okay. Okay. So she thinks that they don't really have enough information to arrest Dr. Crighton yet, but we probably have enough evidence to at least do a lineup and have Kirk, see if he recognizes Dr. Creighton. And sure enough, he identifies Dr. Crighton and says that's her. So they bring up Dr. Creighton on charges of attempted murder in the second degree and assault in the first degree. But in stones office, Dr. Creighton, his lawyer says, you know he was asleep at the time he couldn't have been there. And stone is like, we have His blood that matches Kirk on his slippers. And he, you know, I just need if he'll cooperate, maybe we can reduce the charges. And so the lawyer allows us, Dr. Crighton, to tell the story. And essentially what he says is that he saw or knew that Kirk had been attacked and he tried to get him mouth to mouth to save him. So he's like, I didn't do anything wrong. I was trying to save his life and stone is like but you're a doctor and you just left him there and didn't wait for the paramedics. So We could at least bring you up on failure to report. Meanwhile, we also are Dr. Crighton also tells us that the night of the attack he, there was a restaurant tour, who owns a restaurant, kind of like that borders the alleyway as well, who had told Dr. Creighton that he had called the paramedics. And he left because he didn't want to be sued because he had heard this was kind of around the era of time, I feel like were anybody who was like helping victims of crimes if they like, you know, gave them CPR or you know, first aid or whatever. They could be sued for interfering or like causing damage or whatever. And so Dr. Creighton was afraid of getting sued. Do you remember that? That was like a big thing for a while? No. Oh, I just remember that was like a big topic of conversation in like 2020 type television shows around the time.

Matt Molinaro:

Like if you were helping people, if you

Enn Burke:

were like, yeah, like if you were helping a, you know, car crash victim or something like that, like they could sue you. Because you didn't have medical training or whatever, and you fucked them up, while the paramedics or something. Okay.

Matt Molinaro:

Yeah. Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah. Okay.

Enn Burke:

So they go and talk to this restaurant tour, who Dr. Creighton said told him that he had called the paramedics and he says he never promised to call the paramedics and he said that Dr. Creighton had told him that he would take care of it. So essentially, we've got like two witnesses at the scene, who were both kind of pointing the finger at each other for responsibility of making sure the paramedics were on their way. Meanwhile, the district attorney's decide to have Dr. Olivet in our assess Kirk and try to get more information from him about the night of the attack. And he tells her that he saw Mr. Petrowski, who is the restaurant owner. And I'm not quite clear on what exactly he says here. But essentially, he kind of talks about how when he was attacked, he tried to give the man back The Purple Bag with the letters on it, which is the bag that was stolen from the woman whose rotate rotator cuff was torn. Right. So Dr. Olivet, thinks that perhaps actually who attacked him was the husband of the woman whose rotator cuff was torn. So they go and talk to this man, the husband, Mr. Morrissey, who is played by Denis O'Hare. And he tells them basically like nothing of help. So they go to the hospital to talk to Kirk again. And or sorry, they go to the hospital to get information about the wife's attack. The nurse there tells them that Mr. Morrissey was a total jerk. He was really demanding he was freaked out about his wife having been attacked. And he made a couple of calls from the payphone in the hospital while his wife was being assessed. When they look into those call records, they see that those calls were made to crosskeys restaurant. So they think now Morrissey might have called Prosaically to be like, Kirk attacked my wife, where is he dead at a dub? And so they go and talk to the restaurants who were in he says, Okay, I saw Mr. Morrissey do it. He grabbed a rebar from a nearby construction site and headed into the alley with it. And it's important to the case that he grabbed the rebar before he went into the alleyway. They go and arrest him for the assault of Kirk and Schiff. Stone and shift talking there about stone and shift talk. And they learned that Morrissey is claiming this was self defense, because he went into the alleyway and Kirk attacked him and he defended himself with the rebar. But stone is like your wife's attack occurred two hours before this. So this was clearly premeditated, like you walked into the alley with the rebar intending to attack him. So they bring him to trial. And at trial they put Dr. Crighton on the stand and he says he witnessed Mr. Morrissey attack Kirk and are sorry he saw Mrs. Morrissey get attacked. And he saw that Mr. Morrissey was furious about it. Morrissey's defense lawyer I will say does a pretty good job of like poking holes in stones case. Yeah, cuz he like questions why? Dr. Creighton, why didn't you wait for the paramedics? And he also was like, and it was your child that was pushed into traffic, right? Like you could have had a lot of motive to do this as well. So stones case isn't quite as strong as he would like I think or the defense is doing a better job poking holes in it. They put the restaurant tour on the stand and he says that he saw Morrissey hit Kirk in the legs and the head with the rebar and he saw him get it from a nearby construction Building or construction site before he entered the alley, Morrissey's lawyers out question him and ask him if he saw Kirk attack Mr. Morrissey before Mr. Morrissey started swinging the rebar. So he's kind of like, did you see like you don't know definitively whether or not Kirk attacked him first. And so kind of again poking holes in the claim that he went in there to attack Kirk stone decides at this point that he wants Kirk to testify, which the judge kind of wants to talk with him and chambers first, and that happens, and they decide that he has the mental clarity to stand trial or not to stand trial to testify. And they put them on the stand. And it kind of works for them and also backfires. Yeah. Because he says that he was asleep in the alley, and he woke up because his legs were in pain. And he says that he saw Mr. Morrissey standing above him hitting him with a rebar. And this is when he said like, you know, take the bag back, like, I don't want it. You can have it I'm sorry. But he kept attacking him regardless. And the defense asks, Why didn't you tell us this at the time? Or why didn't you say that to police at the time. And he says, Well, I was high at the time. And I didn't remember, but I remember now. And the defense kind of pushes him and pokes out him and he kind of loses it on the stand and starts getting really angry and says that he when this is all over, he's gonna get revenge against Mr. Morrissey. And he'll sue him and take all his money and spend it on crack and a Rolls Royce wheelchair. And it's a very, I don't know, it was

Matt Molinaro:

it was zero to 60 really fast and very felt really fake. Yeah, it didn't feel like it would have, regardless of how they're trying to portray this character and your struggles. It doesn't feel like anything that would have actually come out of his mouth.

Enn Burke:

No, not at all. So they put Morrissey on the stand. This is the man that they that attacked Kirk and they stone questions him and has them tell him the progress of events. And the man said he attacked me he kept coming at me. But stone kind of catches him in that lie because he couldn't have kept coming at him because he had broken his legs with the rebar. So he catches him in that lie. And then Morrissey loses his temper on the stand and basically kind of confesses to having done everything intentionally but says like this is all because the justice system couldn't deal with him. Like they kept just arresting him and then releasing him and he had to take care of it because the justice system system wasn't doing it. So the jury deliberates, and they come back, and they find him not guilty of attempted murder, not guilty of assault in the first degree. But they do find him guilty of assault in the second degree. And in what appears to be kind of a anomaly in procedure, the judge is like, okay, and I'm ready to do sentencing immediately in stone is like I object to that, like you're supposed to review the case and all of that kind of stuff before you issue sentences and she's like, whatever. I'm going to do it right now. Right? And she asks Mr. Morrissey, like, how much time have you spent it or she's She says that this guilty charge demands time in jail, and she asks him how much time he's already spent in jail. And he says two days. And she says, Okay, I'm sentencing you to time served plus probation. So essentially, she's just letting him like walk free assaulting this man. And stone of Jackson says he will appeal. And essentially he says like, the system failed Roland Kirk, and no one cares, including the judge. And he kind of concludes on saying that, you know, people think that people experiencing homelessness don't deserve any fairness or sympathy. And that's kind of the end of the episode. Yeah. Yeah, fair. Whoop. There it is. Yeah.

Matt Molinaro:

I feel like we did an episode, maybe season one that has strong homelessness.

Enn Burke:

Yes, it was a case where it was a case about reasonable expectation of privacy where they had gotten evidence from his like home that he had built under a bridge, I think. Yeah.

Matt Molinaro:

Well, are you ready for the true crime? Mm hmm. Okay, so this episode is inspired by the story of Larry Hogue Okay, I think I'm saying that right. But I couldn't actually find any videos that said his H O G. You he? I would say Hogue Oh, great. Yeah. Um, so yeah, it was very hard to find any video sources because I really wanted to know how to say some of the names, but I think that was probably the only one that was difficult was his. Okay. And I know there is a 60 minutes episode from the 90s that interviews him, which I really wanted to find, because I would have loved to hear Him speaking. Yeah, but I couldn't find it. I think it said it was on apps, and then it wasn't. And no one even like, threw it up on YouTube. in like, a weird frame or something. Yeah, it's funny. But anyway, so anyone out there if you're looking for that it's a there's a episode in Season 25 of 60 minutes that briefly talks about this case. Okay. So, and I want to give a big shout out before I forget, because I often say I'm going to do this shout out at the end of the episode, and I forget, I wrote an article in The City Journal. Okay, out of Manhattan, by Heather McDonald. And it was really great, really extensive. Okay, gave a lot of information, a lot of the quotes I found, were from that article. So big shout out to that one. Nice. All right. All right. So most of this story will take place on West 96th Street in New York City on the Upper West Side. And we've talked a lot about how New York City is split up podcast,

Enn Burke:

and I struggle with it every single time. Right?

Matt Molinaro:

And I'm not any any better, really. But I try. I'm going to try to break this down first. Uh huh. Make it as easy as possible. So, okay, here is my basic understanding, basic understanding of how New York City is put up just to place us where we are on this. Okay. Okay. So, New York City has five boroughs. Okay. And the borrows are essentially like districts. Okay. each borough is coextensive with a corresponding County. Okay. Okay. The Bronx is the northernmost borough, okay, and it's very big and borders Manhattan to the southwest, and queens to the southeast. Okay, Queens is also a very large beneath both of these two boroughs is Brooklyn. And then Staten Island is accessible from Brooklyn by the Verrazano state bridge. Okay, it's a little bit more south. So that's the five boroughs of New York City, right? Okay. Manhattan, is the smallest and most densely populated of the boroughs. Okay. And within Manhattan, which is where we are going to be in the story are a ton of neighborhoods. Now, these neighborhoods are not official, sometimes they change, like, where people will say the border of a neighborhood is based on businesses that pop up and demographics and stuff, but they're just, you know, excepted neighborhoods.

Enn Burke:

And that's like, upper Eastside, basically, yes. Or like Hell's Kitchen or something.

Matt Molinaro:

Exactly. So some of the neighborhoods that most people have heard of are Chinatown, Tribeca, Greenwich Village, Soho, the garment district, the two largest, excepted neighborhoods in Manhattan. They're the most northern, and there are the Upper West Side and the Upper East Side. Okay. And these are like the most affluent of the neighborhoods, and most desirable places to live by many. And they both are separated in the middle by Central Park, which by the way, is

Enn Burke:

a huge, huge, it's monstrous, monstrous. Yeah. See, eautiful

Matt Molinaro:

be absolutely beautiful. I have lived in New Jersey for decades, on and off and been to New York multiple times. And I had no idea how big Central Park was, until we visited there. Like after living in California for a while. Let's go to Central Park. And we'll have some time over there. And then we're walking through and we're like, oh, wow, this is I had no idea. It was this big. And I lived here forever.

Enn Burke:

Yeah, no, you could spend like an entire day just walking around. I feel like Yeah,

Matt Molinaro:

and it changes a lot. They there's art installations. There's a zoo. It's very beautiful.

Enn Burke:

And it's very different now from what it was like back in the 80s 90s ABS correctly. Yeah, like because it sort of had a reputation for like non prime

Matt Molinaro:

back then. Yeah, it was not as monitored. There wasn't a lot of police presence and it wasn't necessarily the best police presence when it was there. So okay. So the Upper East Side is like the ritzy er of the two. And this is a quote, also upscale and mostly residential. The Upper West Side neighborhood is known as One of Manhattan's premier cultural and intellectual hubs popular with young professionals for its thriving nightlife. Alright, so our story takes place on that there on the Upper West Side. Another quick quote describing the difference between the two, the Upper East Side offers a more affluent laid back and quiet lifestyle. On the other hand, the Upper West Side has a more up and coming lively and dynamic vibe. younger residents lean more towards the upper west side because of the easier commute to work and nightlife. While older residents prefer the Upper East Side because of the classic New York City esthetic an emphasis on strong community ties.

Enn Burke:

Yeah, I was gonna say that I kind of always got the impression like Upper East Side was sort of like old New York money. Mm

Matt Molinaro:

hmm. Yes. Yes. So this all takes place on West 96th Street on the Upper West Side. So during the mid 80s, the Upper West Side, West 96th Street began to become terrorized by a man experiencing homelessness named Larry hoch. Okay. Various reports showed different ages for him when all of this started, most placed him in his mid 50s by 1985. Okay, I dug as much as I possibly could to find background information about Larry like who he was before this story begins, right, really unavailable. But what I do know is that he either grew up in Connecticut or New Jersey, because that's where he has family. Okay, he has said Connecticut in interviews, but most people believe he grew up someplace in New Jersey, okay, and that he was a Vietnam War veteran. Yeah. During his time in Vietnam, he suffered a traumatic brain injury caused by an airplane propeller

Enn Burke:

propeller, a brain injury from a propeller.

Matt Molinaro:

Yeah, he I think she was struck. Yeah. It can cause significant brain damage. And he was allegedly already suffering with schizophrenia before this.

Enn Burke:

Yikes. Okay. I can't help it not at all.

Matt Molinaro:

So despite this, when he first shows up on West 96, three in 1984, neighbors mostly viewed him as relatively harmless. One thing I did read about the Upper West Side is that there is a large population of folks who are homeless there. And this is ongoing from the early 70s. Till today still, okay. In fact, in during the pandemic, many residents of homeless shelters in the area, they were which by the way, there's reportedly more than 70 on the Upper West Side. Wow. Yeah. Many of them were moved into hotels and Co Ops, that were classified as single room only entities to lighten the burden on the shelters and to keep everyone compliant with COVID-19 restrictions. So yeah, the Upper West Side is still sort of known for this dynamic. In 2021, one of the main hotels involved, which is the Lucerne had a ruling allowing these folks to be transitioned back into the shelters, which caused some controversy, but by what I read, it was mostly wanted by both residents of the hotel as well as the homeless folks who were put into them. They were really looking to get back to a normal life that they had known before, you know, yeah, yeah. Okay. So Larry Hogue being among many other folks who were homeless on 96th Street at the time didn't really appear much different to anybody else than anyone that was already there. Many neighbors used to offer him food money, he quickly became a fixture in the area that nobody had any major issues with. Okay, while living outside on West 96th Street, like so many others in similar circumstances, Larry became addicted to crack. And unfortunately, this addiction but only grow over time. He had plenty of money to support his addiction, because he received in untaxed $36,000 annually from his pension from the Veterans Administration. Right. So he would get about $3,000 a month.

Enn Burke:

Yeah. Which in the early 90s is pretty good.

Matt Molinaro:

Oh, yeah. Yeah. By 1988, Larry had become what neighbors and law enforcement would refer to as a menace. His behavior was dangerous not only to the others that lived there, but also himself. For example, one of his signature behaviors was he would throw himself into oncoming traffic. He would cause significant damages to vehicles that would have to swerve out of the way or that he would land on top of when he would land on top of vehicles. He would reportedly try to bust in their windshields. So it was pretty terrifying for people who even were just passing through

Enn Burke:

and was just out of curiosity was the like throwing himself in front of vehicles. Was it like a strategy to get money from folks or did it appear not financially motivated? It

Matt Molinaro:

did not appear financially motivated in any way. Okay. In 1988 His most violent act occurred when he approached a 16 year old girl who was walking home from school I punched her in the stomach and tossed her in front of a Con Edison truck that was coming. Oh my god. Yeah. Which did she live? She did. The driver luckily was able to swerve in time to miss her hoof. She remains unnamed. And but her and her family were left very traumatized by the incident. Understandably, yeah, Larry was charged with attempted murder and reckless endangerment. But during the trial, he was acquitted of the greater charge of attempted murder and just sentenced for just sentence for the reckless endangerment charge. Okay, and this sentence was one year in prison. And that's the longest he ever spent in prison. Okay. The survivor in our family subsequently moved to upstate New York for safety and again, kept their names out of the paper. When he was released, Larry went right back to where he knew best West 96th Street. And by this time, the residents of the Upper West Side who were already, you know, worried and anxious about him for all of the other things he was doing, he would key caught, like Scratch cars, and we'll get into some of the other things, but he was doing other things that were misdemeanors at best. Yeah. But now they're terrified.

Enn Burke:

Many that was a push somebody into traffic.

Matt Molinaro:

Right, right. Exactly. A kid and a lot of people report that he would target like young people or old older people, small animals. He really went for the emotional. Yeah, you know, yeah, attachment to these types of victims and survivors. So even a lot of the people who are already familiar with Larry and accepted him as a neighbor. They were obviously scared. And over the course of eight years alone, he was arrested nine times for other smaller crimes. Some of his signature offenses included vandalism, public urination and defecation masturbating in front of women in miners, Booth, littering, loitering and arson. Okay, so he was known to routinely set fires underneath vehicles. He broke windshields on the regular, he would snap side mirrors off of parked cars. Oftentimes, he would break into vehicles and then urinate or defecate inside of them.

Enn Burke:

Oh, that was in the episode. I didn't mention it. But that was in the episode.

Matt Molinaro:

Yeah, yeah. He would put gasoline he was known to take entire blocks of the city, open up gas tanks to the cars and put gasoline soaked rags and all of them. So you would walk down the city street and every parked car would have a gasoline so drag sticking out of the gas tank. Oh my god. Yeah. He was threatened passerby lives with pipes or with his bare hands. He would jump out and scare children often grabbing them. And he would shatter church windows. Wow. By 1992 He had caused $10,000 in damages to the Christian Science church as Central Park West and West 96. At like, at once, two different incidents. Okay. $10,000 in damages, I believe he would target like their big stained glass windows.

Enn Burke:

Yeah, I was gonna say I bet those are expensive. Yeah.

Matt Molinaro:

And it's like a historical building. So it was, you know, a big deal. Yeah. He'd also taken a solid marble bench on at least one occasion, smashed it into a car window. He was really big. He was a really big strong guy.

Enn Burke:

I was gonna say marbles fucking heavy.

Matt Molinaro:

Yeah, I mean, even seeing pictures of him and hearing how like strong he was, I was shocked by this display. So he would take the big marble bench, smash it into car windows. And on one occasion, he smashed it into a car window of someone stopped in traffic, because they didn't want him to squeegee their car. He also targeted the same people over and over again. So people who were previous victims of him he was known to follow them around. Even if he wasn't doing anything, he would remember who he had scared, and he would follow them around. And if he if they would like escape into a building. He had to be locked out because he tried to go inside with them. And he was known to like pound on the windows and doors of these buildings until he was either escorted away by law enforcement or scared away by them. Wow. Okay. So understandably frustrated and afraid. The residents of the Upper West Side. were left wondering if there was anything that could be done when they would go to authorities They were essentially told that if there was no dead body resulting from the crime, there's nothing they could really do besides Hold on for a little while, which is, you know, how, how they basically felt like how much of a victim do we have to be before something can be done? You know, right. Yeah. Now, many people don't believe that someone like Larry belongs in prison, but instead in a mental health facility. Yeah. Larry, in fact, had significantly more time in psychiatric facilities and emergency rooms than in prison. So many times that every article I read could not even keep count. Wow. Yeah. Legally, these facilities, allegedly can only hold him for a short period of time. And the longest stay he had up until the early 90s, in a psychiatric facility had been six months. Okay, each of the other stays were significantly less, he was usually in and out within a few days. Okay. And this is a quote, Robert spore of the State Office of Mental Health insists that when hoax condition improves, the responsible thing to do is to allow him to leave. And unless they have a court order, we can't keep them long says Martha Reyes, administrative coordinator at St. Luke's Hospital. She also says we can't force him to stay Our hands are tied to essentially he is brought in. And once he goes through the withdrawals of his addiction and stabilizes they claim that his behavior is better, and they let him go. Yeah. And then the cycle just continues over and over and over again. Yeah. Not only is this terrible for his victims who are afraid, but the physical toll of this withdrawal, release withdrawal release on his body, and the psychological cost of that kind of lifestyle. It really can't be ignored. Yeah. But they are. Yeah, fortunately, one thing you'll find different from the episode to this story, thankfully, is that Larry isn't retaliated against violently by the public, not according to him or the residents. Okay. So there'll be no like, violent crime against him as retaliation. Nobody, like decides to take any vigilante justice in their hands. Right. Not that it's not talked about in articles that people saying they want to. Yeah. But, you know, it seems as though most people are afraid to get near him. Okay. And most of the people who live around him that are interviewed seem to have a better understanding of what's motivating Larry, than the system that repeatedly fails him and the community by just releasing him over and over again. Yeah, you know, most of the statements from the residents of the area, they all understand that larious suffering. They all understand that there's mental illness at bay, or, you know, at play. And they all understand that, you know, he is addicted to drugs as well. Right. But it poses a real moral dilemma for these these folks because they're trying to maintain some sort of empathy for this guy. Right. But they also know he is incredibly dangerous.

Enn Burke:

Yeah. I mean, he's, he's significantly impacting their life. Right.

Matt Molinaro:

Right. And, like, many residents describe themselves fleeing to their apartments on a daily basis over the course of a decade. You know, what a nightmare. Absolutely. So, and the only systems that are in place to help them they're completely ineffective. Totally, yeah. One such resident was Lisa lair. lthr. Would you say layer?

Enn Burke:

I would say layer. Yeah. LISA lair,

Matt Molinaro:

who in 1992 was the 54 year old retired school teacher and community activist. Larry approached her as she got out of a car on January 5 1992, and said, I'm going to kill you. Okay. She wanted to appear like you know, a New York New York woman unfazed by someone approaching her she wanted to appear strong. So she just ignored him and just briskly walked across the street into our apartment. As soon as she got inside, if she looked out her window, and she saw Larry take a stone bench off the sidewalk, smash it through her window of her car, bending its frame. Then he climbed in and defecate it in the backseat. So layer had finally had enough. She'd been a resident of this area for a long time, way preceding Larry. She had been one of the people who kind of took up for him in the past. But she realized nothing was happening. So she began a community effort to have Larry committed to long term care. When in the Manhattan DA 's office, her husband was handed a flyer for, quote, homicide victim support groups. Basically saying just in case Something happens to your wife before we get it. All right. So that's the attitude that was being presented to her at reporting this. Yeah. So she went to the precinct to file charges. She describes the people of the officers as having massive dossiers on Hogue. She knew that he'd caused like a lot of panic in her area committed crimes for years, but she really even knowing all that was shocked at how many reports they had. Yeah. Which led her to start making calls to her neighbors and people around. And it resulted in her getting tons of letters and responses with similar stories and sentiments. Wow. She says, quote, they had been in hiding and we're only now coming out because they said they did not want to be posthumous. So finally she was being heard, at least at a local level. And so a police officer who most recently had arrested Hogue Her name is Heidi Hagen's, which is a cute name. She was able to organize a meeting at the Manhattan Psychiatric Center that Hogue was being treated at shortly after this incident. Okay, this meeting consisted of hugs medical team, nine of his victims, including Lisa, just officer herself and another officer. Okay. And they were told, quote, Hogue is more violent than you think. But we can't tell you what's in his record. During the meeting, through tears of frustration and anxiety, the victims pleaded with them saying, quote, why are you telling us this without protecting us? Yeah. And according to Linda Meyers, another resident of 96 Street, hogs medical team answered that they were, quote, unable to hold him because of his rights. And when the effect of the crack wears off the hospital clean hospital team claimed he becomes a model patient and we have to release him on that same night. We similair received a call from one of hoax caseworkers that seems to contradict contradict this reported sentiment. Interesting. She says that the reason for hugs repeated dismissal from psychiatric words, words, were in her words, quote, The medical team had portrayed Hogue as a monocle model patient as a pretext for releasing him in truth. She said they simply did not want him on their ward. Okay, not long after this without notifying anybody, the Manhattan DA his office broke their promise of notifying the neighborhood and released. Larry back onto the streets on January 22. He was arrested for violence eight days later, sent to Bellevue released three days later to police custody. And so it goes on. Yeah. Larry was interviewed by a reporter for that 60 minutes segment in 1993. And while I couldn't find it, of course, I did find some quotes. In the interview he said, quote, I'm a very angry guy, and then dipped a cherry popsicle into a cup of chowder and ate it. Oh, God, just gross.

Enn Burke:

The cause of that is

Matt Molinaro:

I know it's a clam chowder. It just had cup of chowder. But honestly, I mean, corn

Enn Burke:

or clams with a cherry popsicle. Neither is a good choice.

Matt Molinaro:

No, no, it's not the kind of taste that probably gets stuck in your mouth. If you have it by accident somehow. Yes, for your

Enn Burke:

whole week. That's like one of those things like brushing your teeth and drinking orange juice or something.

Matt Molinaro:

Oh my god. One time I went to Starbucks and they made be an iced coffee lemonade instead of an iced tea lemonade.

Enn Burke:

Oof, I that was not good. Two days. A few

Matt Molinaro:

days, but that flavor. It felt like no, no amount of tooth brushing. But anyway, he in this interview also said that he doesn't require much to get by daily to support his addiction. He said quote, I need food and $5 a day to live and asked how old he was hug said old enough to kill. I'll kill anybody for money. If you want someone bumped off. Let me know. This was in the 2020 interview 90 in the 1993 interview. Okay, wow. Sorry. 2020. Program. Yeah, it's 16 minutes, but same. Same day. Okay. Yeah. So we know that Larry has family in New Jersey and Connecticut. He had been discharged to his brother in the past, but it seems as though their ties have been severed because I've seen no mention of him past like 1990. Yeah, he also had a son who took him in after the year long incarceration. But he couldn't really stay with him for very long because his son was already in a dispute. Unrelated of course dispute with his landlord for unpaid rent. He was claiming like they weren't maintaining the apartment, but that was in Connecticut. So at least it was out of the city. Okay, but again, he couldn't stay there for very long. It sort of seemed like there was really no other place for Larry to go. Yeah. So, Lisa Lera, the quote, the resident of 96th Street says, we're pretty nice liberal people. We're decent people. But we call this the asylum of the street. This poor violent man ought to be in a mental hospital. Larry was sent to creed more Psychiatric Center in Queens in 1993. With certain freedoms, he was allowed to sort of leave the premises in the late morning, hours with an early afternoon check in Have a think about noon. Okay, he was able to run errands and like cash his VA check and withdraw money and such. Okay, and he would adhere to this mostly. And then he was released, but prohibited from being anywhere on Manhattan in 1993, I think. Okay, he was rearrested in 1994, found on the Upper West Side, smoking back and return to creed more that July of 1994. Okay. I couldn't find any further news updates on him until an article in The New York Daily News in May of 2009. So a full like 15 years later. Yeah. It said that he had been at creed more the psychiatric center again, since 1998, which is for your leaves a four year gap that I don't know about a year. And then he fled again in 2009. Okay, he was found a 96. Three, again, arrested again, sent back again. At this time, he was reportedly 65 years old. Okay. That is the last piece of reporting you can find on Larry's case on the internet. But what this really comes down to, for me at least is the way those that are struggling and surviving through mental illness are treated. Yeah. How often statistically, this causes them to become homeless. Yep. And then how frequently that leads to drug addiction. Yeah, incarceration. And the bureaucratic practice, what I've learned is a bureaucratic nightmare in terms of getting these folks any sort of long term treatment, specifically in New York. Yeah. As of the late 90s, at least New York is one of only I think, 15 states that does not have a commitment law that a lot of other states have, where once someone is committed, they are required to take their prescribed medicine. Okay, New York is a state that does not have this. And so there's no requirement that people stay on their medicine. And it, it causes a lot of problems from institutions to hold anybody accountable. Okay. Because everything has to be voluntary. So I'm going to talk a little bit about that for a minute. And this is brand new information to me, I am not masquerading as an expert on this by any means. I'm just someone who's learning and wants to continue to learn. So this is sort of, you know, my understanding of what seems to be in my view, a serious problem. Yeah, yeah. So many of the articles show this perception of these folks calling Larry things like a nutcase. A wacko, a drug addicted mental case. So I mean, I mean, his moniker is the quote, The Wild Man of 96th. Street. Yeah. So not discounting the things he's done. But this is the language used to describe in the press. Yeah. And used to describe a lot of people who have mental illness and who are homeless. Yep. The residents actually, of 96th Street, who are mostly in danger from his actions are much kinder about him when interviewed than the general public who will never even cross his path. Yeah, I bet. You know, they're all much more empathetic. They're scared. But nobody is calling him like a total whack job and nutcase. It's just like, What can we do? You know, right. And we've, we've all seen the way homeless, homeless folks are treated and referred to, I can't say I've not been guilty of it myself. And here's a quote from one of the residents of the Upper West Side, her name is Andrea. Kirschner. Tordoff, Nick. Okay. She worries that the way Hogue has been treated and re released over and over again is going to cause her children to stigmatize all homeless people. She says, quote, This bothers me because the homeless need more sympathy, which they do, but I remember wish they do. And I remember when I worked in Santa Barbara at the coffee shop, I worked out Yeah, it was essentially I mean, you've heard me a million times, it was essentially a safe haven for homeless folks. Yeah. And I cannot count the amount of times that I've had to call the police because of a violent incident in the cafe. Because people were scared they're being menaced because someone had Odede. In the bathroom. I had an incident where I had to shut down the store because a man who was homeless was trying to attack someone with a pair of scissors. Another time I was attempted to be physically assaulted, I dodged. But I was attempted to be physically assaulted by a man who was experiencing homelessness. While I was at work, and the amount of times I've been called the F word. And not Yeah, not fun. Were by the homeless population of Santa Barbara, traumatized me, honestly. Sure, yeah. And it made it very hard for me to be empathetic to their situations. Now, let alone all of the other homeless folks who were not exhibiting any of these behaviors. Yeah, totally. So on a personal level, I can see how this mindset could sink in. And I can understand where it can come from not saying it makes it right. It doesn't. It's understandable. Yeah, it's, I could see how it could happen. You know, yeah. Yeah. It doesn't make it any less scary or unsafe for the people who experienced this kind of violence or witnessed this kind of these traumatic experiences. Yeah. So I can see how it happens. But it is a problem of what can be done the app to help the situation and to change the public perception. And to, you know, if, if there were systems in place that were helpful for folks experiencing homelessness, these would be more isolated and understandable. And yeah, it would be situation based help. It wouldn't be the latest epidemic. Yep. So many people believe that one of the big culprits or sources of the current homelessness epidemic, especially for folks experiencing mental illness, is the failures of D institutions. This is a word that's hard to say, Oh, yeah. Yeah, the failures of deinstitutionalization? Yeah, that originated in the early 60s. And the lack of treatment for dual diagnosis patients with medical with mental illness and chemical addiction. Right. Population is known as the acronym Mica. What does that stand for? M ICA for mental illness and chemical addiction.

Enn Burke:

Oh, got it. Okay.

Matt Molinaro:

Here's a quote. deinstitutionalization was born out of the revulsion at the often barbaric conditions of state hospitals at the end of World War Two, and optimism about new methods of treating mental illness. proponents argued that recently discovered anti psychotic drugs would allow patients to lead normal lives outside of institutions. But while some patients benefited from the reorientation of mental health policy, others were denied the only thing that could help them, which is intensive long term care, and quote. So by the early 70s, untreated patients were released in droves and forced into single restaurant occupancies and welfare hotels. But then by the 80s, these places where they were able to go, we're all shut down. Yeah. And outlawed. Yeah. So most were left with no place to go. Besides the streets or jail. Yeah. Which in jail, they're not getting any real care.

Enn Burke:

Help. Right. Right. There's no mental health or chemical addiction care? No,

Matt Molinaro:

and not. It's not specific. One, it's there. Right. And it's expensive. Yes. massively expensive, much more expensive than alternatives. Yes. So within 10 years of the community mental health centers act of 1963. And this is sort of one of the main catalysts of this deinstitutionalization movement. It provided seed money for a nationwide system of mental health centers. And these were meant to take the place of state psychiatric hospitals are state hospitals with psychiatric units. Okay. Within 10 years of this bill going into place, there was a dramatic increase in the rate of violence by the mentally ill. There was disorder and local communities. There was a huge absence of community care, and an increased burden on the criminal justice system, which was not outfitted to help these people at all. So while a de institutionalisation was born out Have a human humanitarian concern for patients who were suffering really atrocious conditions in mental hospitals. I mean, we've seen documentaries, we've seen expos A is on this, the conditions of some of these places and it's

Enn Burke:

horrific, horrendous. Yeah.

Matt Molinaro:

While that is where it all began, both supporters and critics of deinstitutionalization agree that the present situation is untenable. Yeah, the long term care facilities that were dreamed of in the 60s in most states are still just a dream that never materialized. Never got the proper funding. Many of the mental health facilities have shut down or become overworked due to lack of funding, lack of staffing, and have been forced to either shut down or turned into outpatient only clinics. Yeah. David Rothman, Director of the Center for society and medicine at Columbia University asks, quote, whether the mental health system is capable of delivering humane care, let alone total supportive care. Where will the money come from, from the community that had no empathy for the mentally ill? Right? Apparently, we underestimated the great number of our fellow citizens who can tolerate the daily sight of pain without flinching. There are Housing First initiatives out there, and data shows that they do work. I've seen a documentary in the past. I wish I could remember the name of it. It was a long time ago. But it talked about these sorts of initiatives where yeah, the idea is first getting folks into a home a house. Yeah. And then providing them that feeling of safety, of normalcy of security, and then working on issues that they might have with chemical dependency or right joblessness and whatnot. So the long term housing rates of such programs have up to a 98% success rate. The cost taxpayers, against taxpayers is significantly less annually. Yeah, I'd recommend listeners to go to end homelessness.org For more information on these programs, because you can certainly learn a lot more than I'd be able to explain

Enn Burke:

what's so funny you say that because I as you were saying this, I was remembering that study of like the money spent providing, like the the constant arresting mental health and you know, all of that is like twice as expensive as taxpayers as if we just gave people free housing

Matt Molinaro:

100% I was looking at some of the articles that talked about Larry hoax, specific case and how much it cost, the over the decade long release and re institutionalization. And like all of this, and it was an his time in prison especially. It's insane. It is insane dollars that are spent that nobody even thinks about, you know, nope. Yeah. I'll end with a quote from he fuller Tory, which is also from an article from the City Journal, which is the one I was Shouting, shouting out of the town. Yeah, different article, but still really good. This is more of an opinion piece that they write, we'd find a solution faster if we could. How's Larry Hogue right next to the governor's mansion. Yeah, replace discharged patients in group homes next door to state legislators or Department of Mental Hygiene officials. Suddenly, we'd see legislatures falling over themselves to pass outpatient commitment laws, the mentally ill would get the treatment they desperately need and our communities would be that much safer. Yep. And I can't say they're incorrect. Nope. And that is the story of Larry Hogue. And who is also known as the wild man of 96th. Street. Wow, great job. Thank you. I, when I first saw the inspiration for the story, I was like, Oh, this is going to be a rough one. And then looking up the researching and finding articles. I was like, Well, I wonder if there's enough information out there to really, you know, express the story. Right. And there was a moment where I was like, You know what, maybe I'll just mention this, and I'll find another similar story. Yeah, but I feel like that's why there's no information out there. Yeah, you know, so I was like, I'm just gonna, I'm gonna really dive into something I really know very little about and do my best. And again, if I have misrepresented anything about the homeless community, or folks experiencing homelessness, if I've been it all off the mark, I'd love to hear any corrections or opinions out there. So reach out anyone who's listening if you have anything further to, to discuss on this.

Enn Burke:

Yeah. Well, great job. Thank you. How would you rate the episode? Um,

Matt Molinaro:

I remember. It was like, last week almost. I watched. Yeah, I think I feel like I liked the episode and then he was terrible. I thought it was a decent time. So that wasn't completely inappropriate. I'll give it a c plus.

Enn Burke:

Okay. I think that's probably fair. It wasn't unwatchable. And it also wasn't like, super fantastic. So I think that's pretty good.

Matt Molinaro:

Yeah. And as far as the, the way he handled the crime. I mean, it was literally based on this. I do feel like there were a lot of parallels. You know, they kept in a lot of facts and factoids that were similar, like some of the offenses he did some of the attitudes people took against him. They just added in the crime element against him. You know, I'll give it a C++ file.

Enn Burke:

Yeah, I think that's fair. Like it again, wasn't terrible. And it wasn't incredible. So that seems appropriate. Yeah, well, ripped from the headlines isn't an indie podcast. So if you enjoy listening to us and think that other folks might to the very best thing you can do for us is to rate and review our podcast on whatever platform you're listening to this, because that will help other people find us.

Matt Molinaro:

Yes. And the second best thing you could do is to recommend our podcast to a friend because you have good taste, and people really respect your opinions.

Enn Burke:

Yep. And you can find us online on social media, Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram ripped headlines and our email is ripped headlines. pod@gmail.com. Feel free to send us an email,

Matt Molinaro:

and check out our website while you're online at ripped headlines. pod.com you'll find our patreon link, and you'll find the great perks it has. And when you do it, you can get the joy of supporting one of your favorite podcasts. US Yes,

Enn Burke:

and a percentage of our Patreon proceeds get donated to the Equal Justice Initiative. So by supporting us you are supporting positive change in the world.

Matt Molinaro:

And if you'd like you can buy us a coffee at buy me a coffee.com/n and Matt,

Enn Burke:

thanks so much for listening to it from the headlines where you get the facts and some fiction.

Matt Molinaro:

We'll see you next week. And until then, stay out of the headlines. Bye