In this week's Episode, Enn recaps S04 E04, Profile, which features guest star James Earl Jones! While the premise for this episode was ripped from several stories, including Anthony P. Griffin defending a Klan member in 1993, Matt takes us through the chilling accounts of The .22 Caliber Killer and The Midtown Slasher - These serial killings resulted in the loss of 12 lives and the near-killings of 7 others in under 4 months. Men of color were targeted in this 1980-1981 killing spree and left the community forever changed.
In this week's Episode, Enn recaps S04 E04, Profile, which features guest star James Earl Jones! While the premise for this episode was ripped from several stories, including Anthony P. Griffin defending a Klan member in 1993, Matt takes us through the chilling accounts of The .22 Caliber Killer and The Midtown Slasher - These serial killings resulted in the loss of 12 lives and the near-killings of 7 others in under 4 months. Men of color were targeted in this 1980-1981 killing spree and left the community forever changed.
Hey listeners. Today's episode deals with the topics of racism and racial violence. We wanted to notify our listeners who may experience trauma related to those topics ahead of the episode. And to let you know that resources are listed on our website. Thanks for listening.
Voiceover:In this true crime law and order podcast, the episodes are presented by two separate yet equally ridiculous individuals, one who researches the actual crime and the other who recaps the episode. These are their stories.
Enn Burke:How are you? How was your week?
Matt Molinaro:oppler?
Voiceover:Yeah.
Matt Molinaro:Honestly, it was a really long week at work. My boss is in Nepal. Uh huh. Fancy. She's, honestly my boss is like the coolest person. I feel like not many people can say that. But I'm very lucky to be able to be one of them. Yeah. And she just does these incredible things, like climbs mountains, and goes on these tracks to all different places. And her and her husband are both like, avid outdoor people. Uh huh. But, and I'm not trying to offend everybody out there. But sometimes people who describe themselves as outdoorsy or outdoor people, aka half of Santa Barbara,
Enn Burke:right, people who are really into hiking because they go, you know, once every five years.
Matt Molinaro:Exactly, exactly. Sometimes it's a little performative and a lot annoying. Yeah. Not like that with her at all. It's like, she doesn't just unload on you as though she just started CrossFit or veganism. It's just, you just, it's just the right doses. It feels magical. When she talks about these things. She's a big fan of like, fantasy books and stuff. She's the one who got me into Name of the Wind. So I'm just so proud of her going out and doing these cool things. She's in Nepal for a month. That's amazing. Yeah. And she told me she's there. Her and her husband are staying at tea houses while they're there rather than camping because it's so cold. Interesting. And I was like, what is that? Because it sounds magical. Is it just as magical as it sounds? Yeah. And it kind of is.
Enn Burke:It's basically like a tea shop that has rooms
Matt Molinaro:kind of it's like a little in like a makeshift, sort of. I don't know, it just seems really cool. So work has been a little challenging with her gone. Yeah. But the work week ended very well. I say that. Good. I'm happy. It's the weekend. What about you,
Enn Burke:um, my week was fine. My weekend went by too quickly. We had like a little early Easter gathering with my family yesterday. Oh, fun. And it. This was the first time I have ever hosted at my house, my entire family. And it reinforced for me why I am an introvert. I love my family. And they're like, they're great. They was fun and all of that. And I was just like, I realized now how introverted I am after having 18 People in my house yesterday. So I'm excited to have a quiet day today after we finished recording. And I'm hoping next week isn't too wild, because last week was pretty hectic at work.
Matt Molinaro:Yeah. Well, give yourself a little bit of grace. I'm sure you're a little more introverted after the past few years. It's 100%.
Enn Burke:Yes, definitely. For sure. Well, I have three random things to talk to you about. Okay. So the first one is kind of a time is a flat circle. There's a glitch in the matrix type thing. So last week, was the episode where I covered the case of Mike Tyson. Correct? Yes. Okay. So on. I think it was Friday. Before we were going to record the episode miles and my friend Nina who moved to town recently, she came over and we had like, watched real housewives and then she was going home. And as she was walking to her car outside of my house, she tripped and like went flying and like, like really banged herself up pretty badly, like scrapes on her knees and her hands and her arms and all that kind of stuff. And miles his comment was, you look like you got in a fight with Mike Tyson. And I was like, That's so weird that you said that when we're recording the episode tomorrow. And then Nina said, I saw Mike Tyson yesterday in Los Angeles. What? How weird is that? Oh my God, for sure. A glitch in the Matrix.
Matt Molinaro:Did she for sure. See him? Yes. Oh my god. That is
Enn Burke:Yeah, I was like this is too weird. The other thing that I recently started watching on TV that I want to strongly encourage you to watch did remind me did you watch Love is blind The first season Yeah. Okay, number one, watch season two, we'll do number two, there's a spin off called the ultimatum.
Matt Molinaro:Now Oh, I've heard I've seen memes about this, but I haven't seen anything about it.
Enn Burke:Okay. So the ultimatum is like love is blind, with like, the messiness turned up to 100. How is that possible? Because here's the premise, which is like, how do they convince people to do this, it's like, one person of the couple has issued an ultimatum to the other, like, I want to get married. And if you're not going to say yes, or want to marry me, like we're done. And so what they do is create this kind of experiment where they have all of the people who have issued ultimatums in their couples and their partners, like, split up for three weeks and date other people from these couples for three weeks. And then after those three weeks are over, they get back with their original partner and you know, are together for three weeks, and then at the end, they have to decide, like, do I want to be with my partner? And do I want to be with this new person? Or do I want to be with nobody? Wow. And so it is next level of messy because they do things like they will, you know, mix up all the couples. And then they will like put all the girls together at like a bar. And they'll have to be like talking about how their dates when and how, but it's like with each other's boyfriends or partners. And it's and the men do that too. And it's just
Matt Molinaro:to do they know, which are they allowed to say who they're dating, or everybody knows everything. So everybody knows exactly which other girls with their actual partner.
Enn Burke:Exactly. Well, it's so messy, and I think it's way better than love is blind.
Matt Molinaro:Wow. Are these people who were previously on love is blind are totally different cast
Enn Burke:totally different casts? Okay, good.
Unknown:Wow. Okay, hardcore
Enn Burke:recommend for anybody out there who liked a show like love is blind. The ultimatum is fantastic. How does anybody state why? It that's the thing. Like, I don't understand how any of them, like a lot of them are like using it as a test to see like, maybe come on, that kind of stuff. But it's like, I don't think they're thinking about like, this person is supposed to be dating this person for like three weeks, and you're like making out on camera. And some of them go a little further than making out and it's like, and then and then they like have to get back with our partner and the partners like so what was the last three weeks like it like it's just so messy?
Matt Molinaro:And I'm sure the producers or whoever's in charge of casting is specifically putting people with other partners when they do the switch that have some of the qualities that they're looking for exact they don't Yeah, or they're not finding in their current relationship, correct? Yes. Wow. I feel like I have a lot of feelings. I feel like a this hat. I'm hoping that these are people who just secretly don't have a huge stake in their relationship. But I bet there are a lot of people who go in thinking we're such a strong relationship, this is going to be fine. It's going to be for us. Yes. And then at the same time, I'm thinking when I know people who are in polyamorous relationships, yeah, I think it takes a really specific mindset. And for sure, communication style with your partner to be in that type of relationship. Yes. And both people have to be like, all in. And both people have to like agree to exactly what that's gonna look like. Yeah. And that is something that takes a while for really established healthy relationships to figure out yeah, not alone. Relationships in peril.
Enn Burke:Yes. Fantastic. So definitely check that out. When you have a minute. The first eight episodes are currently available on them free and then I think we get like maybe one or two every week after that.
Matt Molinaro:Wow, no wonder there's so many memes about that show. So good.
Enn Burke:Okay, the other thing that I started watching and this is more like I'm putting it on in the background while I'm doing other things, but my friend Shana finally convinced me to try Keeping Up With The Kardashians. Wow, okay, okay, Have you have you ever watched it? Um,
Matt Molinaro:I'll disclaim this by saying I have no issue with people who watch that show or anything. I mean, I watch housewives and all of this other type of stuff. That's like it. Yes. I just never got into them. I've seen one episode one time. And it just caught me very off guard like Kim Kardashian was helping a police officer. Like investigate or like, talk to the family of a missing person. Oh, I don't Wow, that's weird. Yeah. And then she did a ride along. And she went to this family's house that was looking for their like loved one and they were crying and Kim Kardashian was sitting there with the police. It was the very Strange so that's my take.
Enn Burke:I think like the second episode of the season they like decided to it was very like Cher from clueless. They were like, I'm gonna give back to the community. So they like pick up a random person who's experiencing homelessness and like, give them a bunch of clothes and like, let them you know, use their shower and like, take them to the dentist and all this kind of stuff. So it's just like weird and the storylines are so like, obvious like it's obviously a storyline. But it's really funny because SNL has a commercial for the Kardashians and Kristen Wiig, Kris Jenner. I've always thought it was so funny. Like I knew enough about them to find that funny right? And after watching a few episodes of the show, I'm like, oh, that commercial is like perfection spot on because Kristen Wiig is like so thirsty and sad and desperate as Kris Jenner and yours says there's Yeah, four sisters. She is exactly like that in real life. Like every talking head is clear is feels like a bad seventh grade monologue. Because it's so fake. It's it's truly a an experience to watch these people. And again, I I'm watching it kind of as like background noise, but again, no judgment to people who love it. And I do love a lot of terrible trash TV. And I think I found a new thing to just kind of keep on in the background and put on when I when I need something to just be on the television, but don't want to like select something. Wow. So Wow. Anyway, that's all I got for you. Oh,
Matt Molinaro:wow. I don't have a lot. I've just been watching housewives. You don't watch jersey, right? I don't you're sick in the head. So good. And the reunion is just got filmed, I think last week, so that's coming up. And my friend Gina, shout out to Gina texted me this about the reunion. Okay, she texted me this on Wednesday. And she said Andy Cohen radio. She was listening to it. And he said he did the New Jersey reunion. And this was the first reunion he considered walking out on. Oh, wow. He said he brought something up that resulted in an hour of straight screaming. And he never thought it would cut so deep. But he wouldn't say what it was, of course. And that he went home and had to actively try to decompress because it was so intense.
Enn Burke:See, that's the reason I don't get into jerseys because unlike the other housewives where it's sort of like superficial friends like who are like you showed up late to my party. It like that level of drama, like jersey is like deep dark family drama, and it just feels intense to me.
Matt Molinaro:Yeah, I think there were a few seasons where I would totally agree with that, especially with the dark part. I think it's kind of climbed out of the dark family drama, and now it's just Teresa being really, really overly ridiculous about how no one could talk about anything about her life. Yeah. And Melissa, you know, back desperate for a storyline. Yeah, but the other ones honestly, on the cast. I'm kind of more interested in at this point. Well, maybe I will give it a go once I'm done with the Kardashians. I mean, listen, if you could watch the Kardashians, if you could watch this love is blind ultimatum stuff. I know. I
Enn Burke:know. Speaking of drama. Well, speaking of drama, shall we get into the drama that is lawn order?
Matt Molinaro:Oh boy, we should. Okay,
Enn Burke:I am the reCAPTCHA. This week. This is season four, episode four. And it is titled profile. So we open on a couple of cops walking out of like a corner market and their dialogue is basically complaining about all these newfangled soda flavors. And they were like, What about blah, blah, blah, what about Sasebo gorilla? And I was I was just thinking like, are they about to mention cactus cooler and like they're so they're having the great soda debate of 1997. And they hear a gunshot and they start running down the street toward the gunshot and the camera work like the camera follows them. And it is very bullier which like is really unpleasant to watch how shaky it
Matt Molinaro:is found footage in the forest. Yes.
Enn Burke:And they come upon a woman who has been shot. She's laying on the ground, and she's carrying a grocery bag. And one of the person one of the kinds of bystanders around like the cop says like, Did you see who did it and he's like, yeah, he was a white guy who ran into that like parking lot over there. So one of the cops chases into that parking lot, but loses him doesn't find him. And then Briscoe and Logan arrived on the scene. And they talked with the cop but he said he never actually saw the gun man, but he ran in the direction that somebody had indicated that the guy ran and we learned that the woman who has been shot and killed is named Sheeta Khan. She's 3232 years old and she was killed with a shotgun. Briscoe when they're kind of looking at this case remembers another thing that happened like last week where a cashier, a teenager who worked as a cashier at the grocery store, that matches the bag that this woman was carrying, also got shot with a shotgun and was killed a week ago. And so Briscoe is kind of like, I wonder if this is related. And then we get an old woman who comes up and is like, talking about how the man looked 30 years old to her. And I thought he had manners because he said hello, before he pulled out the rifle. And another woman says, like, I saw him, I know exactly what he looks like. And then she starts describing literally Satan. And like, literally Satan and Brisco is like, yeah, it's probably not Satan, because he's not local to the neighborhood. But he's like, Well, if he got away in this parking garage, and like, managed to, like navigate this alleyway he like must be familiar with the area. So he probably lives around here. And Satan's not a local. Not exactly. So then we get a title sequence. And I had a little bit of time, so I decided to play civilization, civilization, civilization six on my switch, and I evolved my society all the way from the Stone Age to the atomic era. And by the time that I've discovered nuclear fission,
Matt Molinaro:we're back. Wow, that's amazing.
Enn Burke:I know, right? When we come back, we are in the station and Lieutenant Van Buren is talking with Logan and Brisco. And they're trying to figure out the connection between the teenage cashier who was shot who we learned is from Haiti, and the young woman who was killed today. And we learned that she is from India. There were no shells on the ground near either of the shootings. And so they are able to do to deduce that either the gunman picked up the shells, or he used what's called a breech loader gun, which I did a brief like Google Search to figure out what that was, but I honestly didn't care enough. But apparently, it's it just like, operates differently and doesn't expel shot up shells on the ground or something. So
Matt Molinaro:yeah, maybe it's like one of those vacuums that you know, or like one of those lawnmowers that has the bag.
Enn Burke:Oh, so your house has a bag to catch the shelf catch all. So. So the they talk to cheetah, the woman who was killed, they talked to her husband, and he explains that they had moved to the neighborhood five years ago. And we get kind of a sad story that is not pertinent to the storyline of the episode. He has no idea he didn't know the Haitian teenager who was shot. He doesn't know anyone who would want to kill his wife. So the the detectives are kind of coming up blank at this moment. They go and talk to the medical examiner, Dr. scrunchie, right. And she is able to give them like a chart of triangulating where the shot would have come from and you know, all of that sort of stuff. And it's a it's a shotgun blast that apparently like sprayed pellets. And so it kind of like hit her in the chest and killed her. But it also like, went over her shoulder and like hit the wall behind her and stuff like that. So that indicates to her that it was a sawed off shotgun. She says that the cashier was shot with the exact same ammo. And she also brings up that two weeks ago in Harlem in Harlem, a man named Calzada who we learned is a lookout for some drug dealers. He was shot with the same style of weapons. So we've got potentially what they think could be a serial killer on the loose shooting people with a sawed off shotgun. So they head to the market to see if anyone recognizes Calzada and might be able to give them information on who had killed him. But people don't really recognize him. And they're like, Okay, what are the connections between these three, we've got like, the this like young woman, we've got this Haitian teenager who they learned was like a super good student and like, got a scholarship to go to college and, and then we've got a young man who was a lookout for drug dealers. So they're like, not really seeing the pattern between these three people. But Van Buren brings in all the witnesses to talk to talk with Dr. Olivet to try to, I don't know, get more information out of them somehow. So the witnesses are talking with a man who is using a computer program to create like a mock up of what this guy is supposed to have looked like that they saw kill people. And he's using Microsoft Paint to do it. Yes. And they essentially what we learn is everybody has like slightly different different descriptions of what His face looked like. But everybody remembers that he was wearing a baseball cap. But nobody knows what the team was on the cap. Like some people say it's giants, some say met Some say Green Bay Packers. So there, they've got not a lot of helpful information to narrow down their suspects. So, Dr. Olivet says that she will send all the information to the FBI to help them to develop a profile for the killer because she thinks that they probably have a serial killer looking and Briscoe don't really want the FBI involved, but they're like, Okay, whatever. Meanwhile, they do some police canvasses of the neighborhood with images of the shooter, and they're kind of like firing the whole neighborhood, see if anybody would recognize him. And we learned that Briscoes familiar with this neighborhood he used to live there, which and he says that the neighborhood used to be predominantly Jewish and Irish, but is now predominantly black and Latinx. Of course, he doesn't use those words. And so he's thinking, like, maybe the killer is an old resident of the neighborhood who isn't happy with the demographic changes, aka people of color moving in, we get a bunch of irrelevant scenes from businesses in the area from people who have like no helpful information. One of them is like at a warehouse, like the music store. We get a scene of the meeting with the profilers from the FBI, the FBI profiler is named Dr. Bishop. And essentially what he thinks is that they do have a serial killer and the time, the amount of time between each murder is decreasing, so that means he's accelerating. And he most likely it would appear to be like a totally normal person to most people, but would be somebody who has trouble building relationships. And they think the gun would not be a recent purchase, because nobody would have bought that type of weapon to kill people with. And so they think it's probably a gun that he had for a while. And so maybe he's a hunter or his father was a hunter, and they think he's between 35 and 40 years old. And all of that thinks that because he is killing people of color, that he is acting out against a group because of some offense, whether it's real or imagined. So then we get possibly the weirdest scene of all time online, or which is Van Buren and Briscoe are sitting in a car in a neighborhood like on lookout. And a man walks up to the car and is like, Let me wash your window for you. And what it actually is, is Logan undercover as a homeless man, which they have no idea who they're looking for. And so why Logan needed to be undercover as a homeless man is never answered. No.
Matt Molinaro:I, when he first came to the window, I was like, Who is that? Honest, I didn't recognize him. At first.
Enn Burke:It was so weird. Do you find her? I mean, it's like if you have no idea who you're looking for, like how do you so stupid,
Matt Molinaro:he almost looks like a Fraggle.
Enn Burke:He really, really did. So meanwhile, they get a call on the radio of shots fired, and they have another victim, this time the person has survived. And so they go to the hospital and talk with the man. He is an elderly black man. And he says that the shooter asked him, How do you like the neighborhood before he pulled out the shotgun and open fire on him. But it was dark. So he didn't really see much other than he was a white guy with a baseball cap. But he does say, you know, I didn't see his face very well. But I would recognize that voice. If I heard it again, back with the profilers, we now know that it is a serial killer and that the man will that they think he would likely talk to somebody about his anger or what he's been doing. And they also think that he would probably because he's attacking people of color be subscribed to like white supremacist groups or like newsletters and things like that. So then we get a scene where a woman types some things into a computer and magically comes up with a list of people for them to go investigate. Like like they have a database that is like white guys subscribe to white supremacist news sources somehow early and they like to use let me tell you, honestly, and then they like cross reference it with like hunting guns or something like it's just, it is not realistic. But anyway, they get a list of 18 guys and so they start investigating them. They get we get a scene where they're talking to some like 16 year old kid or 18 year old kid and he uses the N word twice in that scene. And his mom is also awful and racist. But he was at choir practice so they rule him out. And then they come across a man named Arthur T me, and he has an address in Manhattan where he used to live with his mother. And they learn that his mother was a victim of a mugging. And during the mugging, once they stole her purse, she fell down, hit her head and died. So they're like, Okay, this guy meets our profile. He's, he was a hunter, his dad was a hunter, you know, he's got this perception that these people of color killed his mother. You know, he's subscribed to white supremacist news sources. So he fits the profile essentially. So they tracked down his sister because they can't find him. And she also appears to hate people of color. And but she, her husband is a little bit more cooperative, like she is, like, tight as a clam, like will not help them or give them any information. But the brother in law is like, here's his address.
Matt Molinaro:So put them on ultimatum,
Enn Burke:honestly. So they head down there, and they find Arthur Tunney walking to his car, he is wearing a baseball cap, he is carrying a bag, they like go to arrest him. And Briscoe reaches into the bag again without wearing gloves and just pulls out a shotgun. So they're like, Okay, this is our guy. So they pull him into a lineup with a bunch of other kind of white guys and baseball caps. And nope. And the eyewitnesses are kind of giving different answers like it's number one, it's number three, a couple of them say number three, and then they have all of the men say the line. Welcome to the neighborhood, which is what or how do you like the neighborhood which is the most recent victims, what he what he said to him before he shot him, and he identify as number three, which is Arthur Tunney. So, they are pretty convinced now that Arthur Tunney is their guy, so they pull him into interrogation, he says a lot of awful things about people of color and references, like, you know, the original laws of the United States states where black folks counted for three fifths of a person. And he's like, I've got the right to bear arms, I've got the right to protect myself according to the Constitution, blah, blah, blah. And he's talking about how the neighborhood went to went to hell. And it's all because of people of color. Meanwhile, they take him to a pre trial hearing, so they're charging him with three counts of murder, or sorry, two, maybe three counts of attempted three counts of murder, one of attempted or something like that. And his attorney is James Earl Jones.
Matt Molinaro:Hmm.
Enn Burke:Did you recognize
Matt Molinaro:him? I did. And I also found out the woman who plays the attackers, sister. Oh, yeah. It's his wife, James Earl Jones wife. Yeah, it was James Earl Jones wife. She's She's passed on but they were married until her passing. Now,
Enn Burke:I didn't know that mean, either. So he is part of the Harlem Defense League and the the DA is are kind of like, oh, this is smart. He has hired a black lawyer to make it look like he's not racist, and that he would not fit the profile of the killer as somebody who hates people of color, even though he like straight up did that in the interrogation room. So I don't quite understand how that is going to protect him. But anyway, he pleads not guilty. Kincaid manages to get the judge to agree that he should not have bail. And meanwhile, in the next scene, James Earl Jones meets with the DBAs. And we learned that Tunney, the minute he got to Rikers was stabbed by a person of color, presumably because they learned about him killing people of color. And so he's like, this is just going to add fuel to the fire, blah, blah, blah. So they try to kind of talk to Tunney and get him to sort of like, hang himself with his own words like catch him in a trap while talking to him about these killings. It sort of works it sort of doesn't. Meanwhile, while he is in custody, they get a call that there has been another killing of a person of color with a shotgun. And so there they don't think that that person is their actual murderer of these other folks. They think it's like a copycat killer and that's stone is always so like, very concerned about law setting precedent or like cases setting precedent like if we allow this man to go free, it's going to basically be like a Get Out Get Out of Jail Free card for like vigilante justice and justice in quotation marks. So they go to talk to Tony sister to try to kind of like crack her. And she they ask her if she will testify about the awful things her brother said, but she's like, the only way I'm gonna give you any information about my brother is if you can promise me that he will go to a mental hospital and not a prison. but they're like, he's not mentally ill, he's just an awful person. And so she's like, Well, I'm not going to help you, then we get a lot of like cutscenes of like the DA is debating the strategy of the case, blah, blah, blah. And in one scene, they kind of talked about how they know that the sister knows that Tani is guilty and that she's protecting him. But they're like, maybe the brother in law, since he gave us Tony's address will be an easier nut to crack. So they go and talk to him, and essentially, kind of get the impression that somebody called Tunney to tip him off that the police were on their way to find him. So it was either the sister or the brother in law. So they get their phone records and see that indeed, she had called her that their apartment had called Tunney 20 minutes before the cops showed up. So between when they met with her, and when they arrested him, she called and warned him that the police were on their way. So he was actually getting in his car and putting the gun in his trunk to get rid of it. They pulled her in and asked for her cooperation. And initially she is pretty resistant. But then stone is like I'm going to charge you with like hindering the prosecution if you don't agree to testify, but she won't budge. And so then we get a scene where the DBAs are debating like how are people still racist in this day and age? It's like, boy, all right. Well, here we are still in 2022. And we could have the exact same conversation.
Matt Molinaro:Right? If that's if that's a raven was in the room. He would have just gazed into the future right there and didn't right tear all terrible.
Enn Burke:Yes. So at trial, Briscoe is on the stand and he talks about how they found racist literature in Tony's apartment, which including included information about hunting black people. James Earl Jones, gets the profile information from the FBI and basically uses that to indicate like how vague their description of him was, and how like some of the theoretical points or theoretical aspects of their profile don't match Tunney. And so he's kind of like casting doubt on that. They put the old man on the stand, he testifies again that the voice he heard was Tunney and meanwhile, we learned that James Earl Jones has summoned all of that to testify for the defense. And he kind of like pokes holes in psychological profiling. And stone thinks that he's going to just use all of the FBI profiling information to just kind of like bury the case in like endless paperwork kind of stuff.
Matt Molinaro:Yeah, tons of very reasonable doubt. Yes.
Enn Burke:So the DA is debate and they're kind of like, well, maybe we should offer a plea deal. So they call Tony's lawyer James Earl Jones, and are going to offer a plea deal of one count of murder, which is 25 to life. And meanwhile, when they call Tunney, or sorry, when they call James Earl Jones, they learned that Tony had been released from Rikers and nobody had told the district attorney's office about it, so they are incensed and stone kind of goes ballistic on the judge who agreed to release him. But Kincaid kind of like saves his bacon before, like just before stone gets arrested for contempt. And so because he's released, Van Buren puts like a bunch of officers to like, find Tonny and like get eyes on him at all times. And they decide to try to crack Tony's brother in law again, to see if they might know where Tony is located. So he takes them to a storage storage unit. Yes, yeah. And inside the storage unit, they find a sawed off double barrel shotgun. And they also find a single barrel shotgun that had been sawed off today because of like fresh filings while they're there, they get a call of another shooting. And so they head down to the scene. And we learned that the victim of the shooting is going to be okay. But we learned that another person has also been shot. And this time, it was Tunney who was shot. And what we learn is that this young woman and her I think her father, were getting off the bus and she says that Tunney shot at them. So she shot back and was able to hit him and kill him so and the episode ends with her saying this used to be a nice neighborhood. And that's the end so kind of a roller weird wrap up. Yeah. I am curious. I'm imagining that the if this was based on a specific case that it had to do with like early serial killer profiling,
Matt Molinaro:it it has to do with multiple case is actually Oh, okay. Yeah. So this, this episode was inspired by aspects of according to the internet for different cases. Okay. And so I'll tell you just briefly some of the ones I didn't choose to cover. Okay. So one of the possibilities was the Joseph Paul Franklin case, he was called the racist killer. Okay, and he was a white supremacist serial killer, and he killed a bunch of folks in the 1970s and 80s. So that was one possibility. Okay, another possibility was the 1980 through like early 90s case of James Swan, who was known as the shotgun stalker in Washington, DC, okay. And he was a person who has suffered with mental illness. He was a serial killer. He did a lot of drive by shootings. Okay. Another one that is much more closely related, which I'm not going to cover, but I've just talked about briefly because it really is so obviously ripped from this case. Okay. Is Well, a portion of it, at least the 1993 controversial case of a lawyer named Anthony P. Griffin, defending a Ku Klux Klan member named Michael Lowe. Right. Right. Okay. And he's a lawyer from the NAACP. Gotcha. Yeah. And he actually ended up getting fired from the NAACP, for cut for defending, defending. Interesting look, but he, he's been very vocal about it, and he's still practicing law. And I think most people are have turned their idea to his side. Yeah, because he was defending the law, not the person necessarily. So the whole case was about, for whatever reason, police wanted a list of members of the Ku Klux Klan. And Michael Lowe, who was like grand master or whatever of his local, whatever clan, said that he was protected under the law that he this is like a protected group. And he doesn't have to give that list forth. But they wanted to arrest him for it. And the NAACP had a similar case previously, where they were trying to get the list of members of the NAACP. And they use the same law to win that case. Yeah. And so the lawyer was like, I don't have to agree with this person's beliefs in general. Right, we have a obligation to uphold the law. So yeah, so that was obviously what they did with the James Earl Jones character,
Enn Burke:right? Because one of the things I didn't say was, there's a scene where stone asks James Earl Jones, like how can you be defending him? And James Earl Jones says, like you even asking me that question is a problem because it implies that white, a white lawyer wouldn't be asked that same question. So it's implying like, black people should care more about black people and white people shouldn't be held to the same standard, essentially.
Matt Molinaro:Yeah. So that was another very interesting connection. But the stories I'll be talking about are of the Midtown slasher, and the 22 caliber killer. Okay, any of those sound familiar? No, me neither. I'd never heard of this. So. Okay. September 22, of 1980. Larry Robinson was walking to a local close grocery grocery store in Buffalo, New York. Buffalo is very far west of New York City, so totally separated. So we don't have to get into the boroughs or anything. So in Buffalo, New York, it's nighttime. Larry Robinson is walking to the grocery store to cash his paycheck, someone he knew, was driving by, and his name was Glenn Dunn. And he said, you know, hey, where are you going? Do you want to ride and he wasn't friendly with this guy. But he knew who he was just from the neighborhood peripherally. And so he trusted him enough and said, Sure, you know, it's late, it wasn't too far. And so he got in the car and they drove on to the grocery store. They drove around 945 And Larry went inside to go cashless check as he was going to, and then Glenn took the opportunity to stand outside the car and have a cigarette while he was waiting. Okay. Shortly afterwards, a nurse named Madonna Gorny showed up at the same grocery store, and she found herself uncomfortable at the site of done standing outside of his car like wandering around the outside of his vehicle. She made a note of him, and then she cautiously approached the store. She passed by I have a man sitting outside with a like brown bag on his lap and a hoodie. And she just went inside to do her business, whatever shopping she was going to do. While inside, there was some commotion in the parking lot. And when Larry came out of the store after a cashier's check and hearing the sounds, he walked over to the car, and it was locked, so we couldn't get inside and Glen was sitting in the driver's seat. Okay, so he walks around the car, and he found that Glendon had been fatally wounded. He'd been shot three times in the head. No, yeah. So police and emergency services arrive. Glenn was pronounced dead at the scene with no resuscitation. Like being successful, obviously. Yeah. And it was discovered that the car he was driving was stolen from a nearby car lot. And Glendon was only 14 years old.
Enn Burke:Ah, god,
Matt Molinaro:terrible, really terrible. By the way, this is going to have multiple victims or survivors. Okay, I always try to find as much information about the survivors and victims as I can. Yeah, very little is available. Very, very little. I even had a hard time getting some of their ages. And some of them you'll see. But, you know, the reason you won't hear too much about their personal lives is just not out there. At least I couldn't find it. Okay, so police investigate the links between Robinson, the person who was cashing his check, and Glendon the victim. And they determined that it's totally true that they barely knew each other. So Larry Robinson was never a suspect. And the next morning, that nurse Madonna Gorny calls the police to see if she can offer any help because she was a witness. She said that Glenn Dawn made her nervous and she figured quote, he was probably up to no good. She also mentioned seeing the guy at the door, and she walked right by that guy. He had a hoodie on. He was a slender, white man with brown hair. He had metal rimmed glasses and a paper bag on his lap. But he didn't really make a splash to her. He just seemed like a weirdo. Yeah. And so it would be remiss of me to not mention that Larry Robinson and Glenn Dawn were black, and Madonna Gorny. And the man at the door were white. And so glendan the victim of the crime made her nervous for standing outside of his car having a cigarette. Yeah. Whereas this suspicious character at the door who was white just was weird. Yep. So they also interview a witness next door to the grocery store named Barbara Wozniak. And she said that she heard shots. She was cooking at the time. So she ran to the window. And all she saw was a white man running from a car. And he had a hoodie on. So other than these two, sort of eyewitness accounts of the scene, the only physical evidence left behind there's no fingerprints or anything. It's just to two or 322 caliber shells. Okay. The next day on September 23 1980, Harold green, who's 32 years old, he is in cheek to Wagga, New York, which is about 15 minutes east of Buffalo. Okay, he's sitting in the lobby of a fast food restaurant eating his car. relatable. without notice, Harold is sitting there just eating his lunch in I think daylight. He's shot in the head by who witnesses would describe as a white man in a hoodie? Okay. An employee who heard the noise and kind of saw someone in the parking lot running. She came outside she found the victim. She called her manager and they called the cops and Mr. Green was also pronounced dead on arrival. The only evidence left behind here were 22 caliber gun gunshot casings, okay. No fingerprints, nothing. So while these two killings were obviously linked to investigators and police, the victims, one was a 14 year old boy. And now they have a 32 year old engineer a few cities away. So the victims are not linked in any way other than the fact that they're both black. Okay, later that same evening, in Buffalo, New York again. 30 year old Emmanuel Thomas was having dinner with his friend Frenchy and his wife, and afterwards, the pair of friends decided to head to the store together. So as they're crossing the street, a man silently but pretty quickly approaches them from out of their sight range and shoots Thomas in the head and flees. God Thomas did not survive the attack. Frenchie and another eyewitness nearby, described the assailant as a white Man with a hood of some type, and maybe around five foot eight. Nobody saw his face. It was so quick and it's so unexpected. With this attack, the forensic team had found in addition to the 22 caliber shells on the ground, that there was gunpowder burns around the wounds. And this was because how close the killer got when he fired his weapon. And this helps them to determine that the weapon was likely a sawed off 22 caliber rifle. Interesting. Okay. So now at this point, the city of Buffalo, particularly the black community, are in fear for their lives, there have been three black men killed with no explanation in 36 hours time. So with no other evidence to go on, the press refers to this man as the 22 caliber killer. Okay, on September 24, this is the very next day, Joseph McCoy 43 years old, and Niagara Falls, New York. This is about 25 minutes from Buffalo. He is walking down the street, and he is shot and killed in front of a church by who witnesses describe as a slender white man in khakis. Again, the only evidence at the scene are 22 caliber shells. And by this time, they have discovered the forensics team, that the markings on all four casings from all four different crime scenes match each other. And they came from the same specific weapon because of like, you know, the firing patterns or whatever, right. And so now they know what they suspected to be true already that these four killings were by the same perpetrator. So they're able to ID the type of gun from all of these casings as a 22 caliber rifle. And we learned from the last attack that this is likely a sawed off rifle, which makes them believe that, you know, when the guy had he did it to like reduce the profile of the gun. That's what he was able to sit outside the right grocery store and have it in a brown bag, you know? Right. So this marks the fourth black man killed within four days in the Buffalo area, by a man with the same description, vague description, but same description. Yeah, about three or four composite sketches are circulated through the media. And the city of Buffalo was on high alert. There was already racial tensions in the neighborhood. But they began to overflow from this, of course, sure. And black folks felt as though there was no police protection for them. And subsequently, there were some nonviolent rallies and press conferences all over the city. So after all of this activity in four days time, things suddenly slow to a halt for a moment. And so investigators and police are still continuing to follow down any leads they have. They are believing it could be related to the Klan, or maybe a car theft ring, but there's really no nothing that's turning anything up. Right. During that time period we're talking about there was also a cross that was burned on a street corner in Buffalo. There's a lot of news coverage over it. I think it could be related to the killings. Everyone is already terrified, but they never were able to find a suspect to identify for that either. So they're just coming up empty handed. Then on October 8 1980. This is two weeks after the last murder at an Amherst construction site about 10 miles north of Buffalo. A worker finds an abandoned taxi and it's kind of in the way of what they need to do. So they call the state police to investigate or remove it. And they can't find any driver anywhere nearby. So after a remains unclaimed for a little bit, the police arrive and they find a wallet in the cab for a 71 year old cab driver named parlor Edwards. Okay. The car was locked. So they had to like you know, do what they do to get into it. And then the trunk is locked also. So they use a crowbar to pry it open. And that's where they find the body of parlor Edwards. He had been bludgeoned to death. They'll later find that this happened in the nearby parking lot, because they find bone fragments over there and blood of the victim. And he'd been slashed and stabbed with a knife. And this is a gruesome details. So just a warning. His chest was cut open and his heart was removed. God they never find the missing organ. So this murder was obviously terrifying, disgusting, vile, and it had a different mo than the previous ones. But because of the time span between them and the area it was happening in and this man was also a person of color. They wondered if it was either or a copycat or maybe your progression? Okay, but they also are putting it up out there that it could be completely unrelated. You know, the very next day, October 9 1980, a few miles from Buffalo, a man is seen lying on the side of the road face down. A water department worker approached him and cause police and this man is deceased, and he was killed in a very similar way to our last victim. Okay, he is identified as 40 year old Ernest Jones, also a cabdriver, also a black man, he'd been bludgeoned throughout slashed heart cut out, okay, they never find his organizer, God, with pleas for help from Buffalo saying that this had become far greater than just unrelated shootings and attacks. They believe they had a serial killer on their hands. President Carter declared this was a federal case, and the FBI was able to get involved. So Let's also not forget that this pressure probably was a lot higher because only four years earlier, the Son of Sam shootings happened in New York City. And he was known as the 44 caliber killer for a while. Okay, so it wasn't as probably difficult as it would have been to get the FBI involved for this. Okay. And I think profiling was still rather new. So you are correct in in that connection. Got it. Okay. So October 10 1982 days after they find this last victim, a man named Colin Cole 37 years old, he is an inmate and he's recuperating off premises from the wherever he's being held. He had some sort of illness at a hospital in Buffalo. And he says that a man went into his room and started strangling him. And he said in his ear that he hated and then he used the N word as he choked him. But a nurse comes in and interrupts the attack, and the man flees, so the nurse checks on coal to see if he's okay. And by the time she gets security to lock down all the exits he had already escaped. He was simply described as a white man with dark hair. Nobody had any other description of him. Agent Douglas of the FBI thinks that the MO of the shooting killer versus the two stabbings were pretty different. And then they developed two separate profiles for each of the suspects in these killing sprees that they're calling it. He also believes that the attempted strangulation of Cole was probably just a copycat. And so Investigators now have a profile for the shooter and a profile for the perpetrator of the knife attacks. And they're continuing to put out bulletins and alerts for police and they use the press to try to elicit any leads possible. More composite sketches go out without explanation, the attacks and the killing is just stop. Wow. There had been six black men killed and one attempted murder between September 22 and October 10. Cut and nothing, nothing. About two months later, just before Christmas on December 22 1980. This is now 400 miles southeast of buffalo in New York City now, and they're in Manhattan in Midtown. A man wielding a knife attacks a 25 year old black man named John Adams. John Adams survives the attack and recovers in the hospital nearby. Now this happened at around 11:30am.
Okay, at 1:30pm. Same date, Ivan Fraser. 32 years old, survives a knife attack on the subway. He says that he saw some got some white man harassing a young woman on the subway. And then the woman got off of the subway at the next stop. So he had already kind of like clocked this guy for being problematic, right? And then soon after, the man comes over and attacks him with a knife and he describes him as a white man in his early 30s with brown hair and a blue jacket. He fended off the attacker and blocked himself with his arms. And so he survived the attack. Okay, and the man flees at the next stop.
Two hours later at 3:30pm 19 year old Luis Rodriguez, a Latinx man is walking in Midtown Midtown Manhattan and he's jumped by a white man and stabbed twice in the chest. In the hospital, he tells staff and police thought it was a white man with brown hair and a blue jacket asking for his wallet. He would unfortunately die that same day from his injuries A few hours later. Nine terrible Three hours later from this, as 6:50pm Anton Davis, a 30 year old black man was stabbed to death in front of a midtown bank
at 10:30pm Same day, Richard Renner, a 20 year old man, also black stabs in front of a hotel on 49th Street, and he dies from his attack God 30 minutes later, at 11pm This is still October 22 1980. The killer attacks a man named Carl Ramsey. I could not find his age. He was attacked on the subway in Midtown. He crawled his way out of the subway station after the attack and gets to the street level, but he does die from the attack just before midnight. Six stabbings in one day within a 12 hour span.
Enn Burke:And remind me how many of those stabbings ended up killing the person
Matt Molinaro:for the first two did not the next four did X and it's just before Christmas in New York City and all of the men are men of color. The Press refers to this assailant as that Midtown slasher and because all of these attacks happened in such quick succession, and with little like reporting between them of course, they all seem to be done in like a blitz style as well. Nobody saw them coming. Police have still very little to go on other than the assailant being described by everybody as a white man with a blue jacket and a hood of some type. Seven days later, Rochester New York, a 31 year old black man named Roger Adams was stabbed to death. Just very little available on this attack. Some of the reports don't even mentioned him. But I did find this information. He seemed to just be outside. That same day in Rochester. 26 year old Wendell Barnes suffered another suffered a knife attack by a white male. He did not survive the attack either. Tired. Okay, so that's the 29th of December, December 31. New Year's Eve 1980. In Buffalo, New York. 32 year old Albert Manaphy was stabbed by a white man and survives. He very nearly survives because the knife wounds did Nick his heart, but he makes a full recovery on New Year's Day. Yeah, thank God. On New Year's Day 1981, both Larry little 20 and 23 year old Calvin Crippen were stabbed in Buffalo, New York, but these men also survived their attacks. They're also all men of color. Okay, there will be no leads that produced any one of specific interest from these killings. Then 17 days later, Buffalo PD homicide gets a lead from a very unlikely place. Okay. They receive a call from Fort Benning, Georgia, where they have a 25 year old Army Private named Joseph Christopher, who's being held by the army for assaulting a fellow soldier named Leonard Cole's five days earlier. Okay, so Joseph Christopher is a white man and his fellow soldier. Colts was attacked by him with a knife, and he is a black man. And he survived the attack. That's good. I'm happy to have some survivors. Joseph Christopher is of course brought into custody right away. And while in custody, he tries to castrate himself with a razor blade twice. Wow, wow. Okay. So he's brought to receive psychiatric care. And when he's getting this care, he's muttering to the people working on him that he killed multiple black men in New York. And he said he had to do it. That's his only comments. So all right, they have this like bulletin out from Buffalo and Manhattan. So they're like, Okay, maybe this is worth, you know, maybe this is one of these guys. Right? So that's how they got the call. And let's get some information on Christopher. Okay. His background matches the profile of the 22 caliber killer. So our first suspect, he is a loner. He is involved with the military, and but he has trouble at the military while being enlisted. They said he would be in his early 30s And he's 25. So not too far off. He's a white man, and he's fascinated by guns, friends and acquaintances of Christopher, by the way, Christopher's his last name. It can be a little confusing, Joseph. Okay. Okay. So friends and acquaintances of Christopher say that he was a hunter. He had a gun collection. And that was left to him by his father, which included a 22 caliber rifle. And so they think maybe they have their guide. Joseph Christopher was born on July 26 1955, to a middle class white family in Buffalo, New York. He had three sisters. He was a middle child, his father and him were very, very close. And he became an avid hunter with his dad from pretty young. Okay, when his father died, I read one article. So I'll just mention this briefly. That said that when his dad died, he inherited his gun collection, which is true. But at that point, he became suspicious that one of his friends of color had stolen one of the guns. And this, in my mind, is just an attempt to sort of justify this guy's obvious racism. Right, but it similarly to the Olivet set in the episode, you know, just real tangent. Yeah, so there are also numerous reports later on that say that many of Christopher's friends were black or of color, and that all of his friends and classmates, including the friends in questions said that him being racist or let alone being a killer was pretty shocking to them. He was a pretty quiet guy. Police perform a search warrant at his last known residence on April 22 1981, which is his mother's house in Buffalo. Okay. In his room, they find metal rimmed glasses and clothing found that matches the descriptions of what the suspect was wearing. Right? in his basement. They find a gun collection and portions from a sawed off gun barrel from a rifle. Okay, they find 22 caliber ammo. They find a misfired cartridge. And they find a rotary magazine. And this is important because the rotary magazine would have enabled the gun to be easily concealed with no reload. So Oh, okay. I think it's similar to the thing in
Enn Burke:the back load or whatever it was, yeah,
Matt Molinaro:yeah. So they're able to then get a warrant for the family cabin in Ellington, New York from this evidence, and they find they're outside to spend 22 caliber shells in the area where he did target practice. And they match the markings from the 22 caliber killings. So they're able to get an indictment for him in front of the grand jury. And Joseph, Christopher is extradited to New York for trial. And on camera, he is wearing a ski mask when they bring him into the courtroom. And they did this because they wanted to make sure that when they had any survivors or witnesses come forward, that they couldn't claim that he was being identified from being on TV. Oh, okay. Interesting. Yeah.
Enn Burke:I feel like they don't do something, do things like that
Matt Molinaro:very often. Right. And I feel like that's kind of smart. Yeah, you know, so, witnesses from multiple of the events, especially the first killing, that nurse Madonna Gorny they ID Christopher in two separate lineups, each The one thing I will say is that he looks nothing like the composite sketches. Interesting. Like, in my opinion, it's not surprising to me if they were going off of those sketches that he wasn't a suspect, or like brave, he didn't get like, Oh, that looks just like me. It he looks nothing like them. Okay. I mean, granted, the descriptions of him have been very vague. Right. So questions of Christopher's competency to stand trial delay, all of all of the subsequent hearings, and at first in December 1981, he was declared incompetent and committed to a psychiatric center for treatment. By February of 1982. However, he was deemed fit for prosecution. So his mom hires him a law firm a law team, but he declines and he wants to represent himself and trial. During trial, there's not a lot of information about it, but he I will say he looks totally different than his original mug shots. You know, I'm sure that was tactical. He's got like glasses on and very nerdy where it is regular mug shots. He's just like, an average dude. So they're, I think, trying to make him look a little bit more mild mannered, but also, I think they're trying to they're pleading insanity. Got it. So he's pleading innocent by reason of insanity, or not guilty, whatever. So he's being tried for three of the long list of murderers. He's being tried for the first three, which would be 14 year old glendan in the parking lot. 32 year old Harold green at the fast food restaurant, and 30 year old Emmanuel Thomas who was crossing the street with his friend, Ray. They were all victims of the quote unquote 22 caliber killer and So the aim of the DHS office with this tactic is to secure a conviction for the murderers that they had the most evidence for. Rape trial began on April 6 1982. And after a few weeks, on April 27, the trial concludes, and he was officially found guilty of all three murders and sentenced to 60 years to life. Wow. Yeah. This is 1982. Okay, while in prison, Christopher would admit to reporters to 13 of the attacks are slash killings. And while he didn't directly cop to either of the cabdriver murders, he revealed details of their wounds that only the killer would have known that were not revealed to the press. He did say adamantly that he did not strangle Colin Cole in the hospital. But investigators already thought that was a copycat. Gotcha. Okay. In 1985, three years later, his conviction is overturned, despite his confessions to reporters in 1983. Because the judge had bar testimony about mental incompetence during his initial trial in Buffalo. Luckily, three months later, the Manhattan trial for the attempted murder of Ivan Frazier and the murder of Luis Rodriguez, that would be the person who saw him, harassed the woman first, who survived and then the the man who identified him and later died in the hospital. Got it. This trial takes place and he is found guilty by a jury and sentenced again to life in prison. Okay, it's unclear whether he was released in those three months or not. But either way, yeah, I should also mention that the timeline matches up and that the reason that there was a gap in between was because he enlisted in the Army. And he was in Georgia. And when the crimes came back, and started happening again, before Christmas, it was because he was back in New York because he was on his holiday furlough. Yeah. So Christopher would spend 12 years in jail, but not because he was released. He actually dies in prison at the age of 37 on March 1 1993, from a rare form of male breast cancer. One thing I think I should mention about Christopher, is that he was a diagnosed paranoid schizophrenic before any of this began. Okay. He said in taped interviews that he believed he was in a race war, and he was tasked to kill Black folks, and he didn't know who was telling him he never thought to ask, he just knew he had to do it. He also attempted to seek help on his own volition before the killing started. He went to the Buffalo Psychiatric Center a few weeks after telling his ex girlfriend that he was quote all nuts up and he tried to check himself in for inpatient treatment in 1980. He was turned away being told that he was not a danger to himself or others. This was two weeks before he killed Glendon author Catherine polar narrow. She wrote a book called Absolute madness about his case and about the mental health crisis in America. And she is in this book making the case that his crimes may have been prevented if he had received adequate mental health care. She says quote, his tragic descent into madness can also serve as an indictment of the American mental health system that refused his pleas for help. And that is the end of the story. Wow, of the 22 caliber killer and the Midtown slasher and I just want to say the names of the victims one more time because it's okay. I don't think they have any real attention in the reporting especially some of them at all. Yeah. So this is also the story of victims Glendon Harold green, Emmanuel Thomas, Joseph McCoy, parlor, Edwards. burnish Jones, Luis Rodriguez, Anton Davis, Richard Renner, Carl Ramsay, Roger Adams and Wendell Barnes and survivors. Colin Cole, John Adams, Ivan Fraser, Albert Manaphy, Larry little Calvin Crippen and Leonard calls. God that is so many people 19 people, he would only admit to 13. Okay. But again, we already know that two of the others are very likely him and one of them might have been a copycat, but yeah. Wow, pretty disgusting.
Enn Burke:Yeah. Well, great job.
Matt Molinaro:Thank you. I was very nervous about this one because it's so much. Yeah. And I, I just was so disappointed in a way to not be able to find more about the victims and survivors, but at the same time if they if the families and then want to move on with their lives like they have that right, and you know, I only want to highlight them in the way that is respectful for their survivors and for their legacy. Yeah. And I think that, you know, that's enough, you know? Yeah. So it's rough. I mean, yeah, we just did this case, a few weeks ago that I covered where we talked about the health care system for people right, are struggling with mental health. And a lot of what I read, talked about how the reason he was turned away just was a legal thing, because there was so little funding for these mental health facilities, and the rules that they had at the centers, where if if you don't think he's a direct threat, if you don't think whoever comes in as a direct threat to themselves or other people in any way, then you can't admit them. Right. So I don't know how much of that played into his specific case. Right. But I mean, I think it's, it's something to say that he, on his own volition went in and tried to seek help. Right. And he was turned away. Before all this happened very shortly. before all this happened.
Enn Burke:Well, how would you rate the episode for watchability, and how it dealt with those themes?
Matt Molinaro:I think I was. I've watched it a while ago, but I think it was a pretty good episode. The acting was really good. And I thought that they handled, it was a little all over the place. Yeah. But I thought that with the exception of some choice words that didn't need to happen and scenes with people who ended up not being I think it was a little sensationalized, they didn't even be relevant. Yeah. So I'd give it like a C plus for watchability. Okay. What about you for for that?
Enn Burke:I? Yeah, I would say c plus ish. i It was certainly it wasn't one of the episodes where I paused halfway through thinking I was almost done and being like, Oh, God. So yeah, let's see. Plus, not
Matt Molinaro:bad. Yeah. And that testimony of that last witness at that he was such an incredible actress, he was so so good. And then for how it dealt with the topics and the actual crimes that I ended up covering, I think they they took a lot from the actual real story. They obviously reduced the kill count by quite a bit, but, you know, right down to the type of weapon and the motivations, and they touched on the psychological part. I don't know, I would give it like maybe a B. Yeah,
Enn Burke:I would, I would say that probably like, Yeah, I mean, I feel like they depicted racism very accurately. So I would say yeah, b b minus,
Matt Molinaro:yeah, it was a rough one. But I feel like I've never heard of this serial killer. No, ever. And when I was reading it, I mean, he gripped the entire state of the nation for a long time. And he's gone down in history as one of like, the most like, savage killers out there and all that, and I've never even heard of him. And remind me of the year again, 1980. Okay, it all began, it was from 1980 to 1981. And for all intents and purposes or whatever, even though it they didn't have a lot of evidence to go on, ended up concluding, at least by within two years, which I think is very uncommon. Yeah. But had they not gotten this guy through the military? He might have never been found. And how do you let someone who has a diagnosed paranoid schizophrenic in to the army? Yeah. How does that happen? I don't understand. I don't understand that at all. Someone you're gonna give this man a gun. Yeah. So anyway, well, the world we live in.
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Matt Molinaro:And if you want you can buy us a coffee at buy me a coffee.com/ should end and Matt,
Enn Burke:thank you for listening to read from the headlines where you get the facts and some fiction.
Matt Molinaro:We'll see you next week and until then, stay out of the headlines. Bye bye