This week's extended episode covers a pretty major case. After Matt recaps the very cult-y S04 E07 of Law and Order, Apocrypha, Enn is tasked with researching the episodes infamous inspiration: Charles Manson! Now we probably could do a whole podcast on this one, but Enn gives a full scope of this man's hatred and the murders he incited, including some victims and beliefs that are usually left on the cutting room floor. What are your feelings on "The Family," and the manipulative ways he managed to use others to do his bidding?
This week's extended episode covers a pretty major case. After Matt recaps the very cult-y S04 E07 of Law and Order, Apocrypha, Enn is tasked with researching the episodes infamous inspiration: Charles Manson! Now we probably could do a whole podcast on this one, but Enn gives a full scope of this man's hatred and the murders he incited, including some victims and beliefs that are usually left on the cutting room floor. What are your feelings on "The Family," and the manipulative ways he managed to use others to do his bidding?
Hey listeners. Today's episode deals with the topic of sexual assault. We wanted to notify our listeners who may experience trauma related to that topic ahead of the episode and to let you know that resources are listed on the website. Thanks for listening.
Voiceover:In this true crime law and order podcast, the episodes are presented by two separate yet equally ridiculous individuals, one who researches the actual crime and the other who recaps the episode. These are their stories.
Matt Molinaro:Hello, hello.
Enn Burke:Happy Saturday morning.
Matt Molinaro:Happy Saturday morning.
Enn Burke:Did you watch Saturday morning cartoons when you were a kid?
Matt Molinaro:Oh, big time.
Enn Burke:I feel like I was always waiting for the X Men to start.
Matt Molinaro:That's so funny because and this kind of bleeds into one of the things I was going to bring up. I mentioned a couple weeks ago that I was a guest on another podcast. You all growing up Christian. And the episode has released that. Check it out. It's called Growing up Christian. You could find it on any podcast, server thing. Whatever. Wherever you're listening to podcasts on you could find it. You check it out. It's really good. And one of the questions they asked me, I don't remember how it came up. But oh, because we were talking about how my parents my dad especially didn't let me watch like regular TV and write things like that. And on the weekends, I would watch whatever I wanted at my mom's house. And they were like, what kinds of things to read look to to look forward to. And of course, I said like snick on Oh yeah, Nickelodeon. And TGIF on ABC. Oh, my God. And then I was like, of course Saturday morning cartoons. And when they asked me, which was my favorite, I was like X Men. 100%
Enn Burke:I thought it was such such a good Saturday morning cartoon.
Matt Molinaro:I couldn't wait for it. It was like my favorite. The second the opening music started that dude. Ah, so good. Yeah, who is your favorite X Men from that TV? Storm? Storm?
Enn Burke:No question storm. Yeah, she was she's always been my favorite.
Matt Molinaro:Yeah, I was. I was in storm rogue kind of gal myself. But I had a big crush on Gambit.
Enn Burke:I liked Gambit a lot to Cyclops was annoying to me too. He should have gotten punched a lot more than he did. Also, a lot of people have a intense hatred for Jubilee. I always liked her.
Matt Molinaro:I was never a fan of her. Okay, because I was like, What are you doing running? And she was like a brat? Yeah, she's like a brat.
Unknown:Maybe Arizona is the enemy. I have a yellow trench coat. And I just felt like she was always like, oh, yeah, we screw everything up. And like, girl, you
Matt Molinaro:got power shut up.
Enn Burke:Yeah, although granted her her powers. Her powers were so inconsistent too, because sometimes it was like literally like glitter. And then other times like exploded steel doors and things like that. It was like, what can you actually do? I vet
Matt Molinaro:her actual character in the Marvel Universe is far better. In comic books.
Enn Burke:They had her for like 30 seconds. And the most recent, not most recently, we but the one that I saw most recently, but I, I'm trying to remember, I don't know that I ever I read some excellent cartoons or comic books, I should say. But I don't know that I ever read any that she was in
Matt Molinaro:speaking of comic books, and Marvel and all that. I recently was listening to an episode of Brene Brown's podcast on locking us. And she interviewed and look up her name real quick. She interviewed a queer author and Comic Book Creator. Okay, and she created a character or not, she created the character. She's been asked to write for a character. The superheroes name is America. Chavez. Okay. And she is, I think, one of the first queer Latin X, like superheroes in the Marvel Universe. Okay. And I think it's really interesting because the creators or the people who were you know, adapting her character have asked the writer Gabby Rivera to write for her because she's, you know, have the same background. Which I think is great, because it's yeah, it's great to have a story being told by someone who lives it lives it. Yeah. And I don't want to say like, I don't know, I just I wouldn't expect that from from Mark like a big huge organization like Marvel, you know, sometimes, organizations like that when they do things like that it's performative.
Unknown:So it's kind of cool. I
Matt Molinaro:don't know a lot about it. So I'm, I'm just speaking off the cuff but I just recently listened to her interview with her and she's And Gabby Rivera is an author. And she's done many other things. And I'm very, very interested in, especially after that episode, but really excited because that character is going to be in the new Doctor Strange movie.
Enn Burke:Oh, did that, is that coming out? Or did it already come out?
Matt Molinaro:I think just just just came out as we're recording this, like a couple days ago. So I'm in this second one. Yeah, this is called like the multiverse of madness. So it's going to be like sort of a blend of a lot of different. It's sort of like exploring the multiverse in a, in a way that's going to make sense in a movie. You know what I mean? They're not just going to be like, oh, there's different versions, just like that. Yeah, sort of, like blending together. I think it's kind of playing off of what happened in the last part or Man movie. yatta yatta. I I'm all into these movies. I don't know if you are but I'm, I'm I'm, I'm actually like recently,
Enn Burke:typically, no, but only because I think like, I don't care for a movie that's, that is carried by explosions and fight scenes over story and character development, which is, I think, a large percentage of superhero movies or really any action movie. But I do enjoy them. Like I did enjoy Spider Man. Was it? No way home? Is that the one that was that was animated.
Matt Molinaro:That was into the spider verse or Oh, yeah,
Enn Burke:into the spider verse. I liked that. That was a lot. But I haven't seen anything else recently. Is Dr. Strange is the first one good.
Matt Molinaro:I've actually never seen the first one. I've only seen Dr. Strange in like the Avengers movies. Okay, but I love Benedict Cumberbatch. And I love anything that has magic to do with it. I love the idea of the Marvel characters that have magic, not just like course machines. Yeah, so I'm really into it. And the movie looks really cool. Just the trailer looks so incredible visually that I'm just like, Sign me up.
Enn Burke:Are you gonna watch the first one first?
Matt Molinaro:I think so. Davey is a huge Marvel ahead. So he he's seen them all and he kind of like, cannot wait, whenever one of them comes out. He wants to see it like in the theater, opening night kind of thing. If he can. So he's very excited about it. And I want to I like to have a full story. So I'm probably gonna watch stuff I've always wanted to see I don't know why I haven't seen it.
Enn Burke:Yeah. Anyway, well, this past week, I watched a show on Netflix called heartstopper. Which I don't have you seen it? You watched her? Okay, it is a kind of, it's a queer, like, coming of age story. And it's so well done. Like they handle so many different topics really, really well. They like talk about consent, like all kinds of important things. And on top of all of that, it's just like, so sweet and wonderful. So I highly recommend that everybody go watch it.
Matt Molinaro:Oh, that sounds great. And it's I think,
Enn Burke:maybe only eight episodes. And it's British. So you know, the Brits, they often do better TV than we do. So it's sure to be pretty great. The other thing that I haven't finished watching it, but I've listened to it this Okay, so I get really insecure whenever I put something on the list to recommend because I'm always afraid it's something that you recommended to me like six months ago, because that has happened a couple of times. And so I'm really afraid that you're gonna be like I told you to watch that a long time ago. Have you watched Bo Burnham's in science lab that
Matt Molinaro:stood out to you?
Enn Burke:I knew I knew it. I knew it. I
Matt Molinaro:know. It's okay. I love it. Because you know what? I take it. I know how you are. And I know how you watch things on your own time, basically. And I know how you like to hear. Especially when something has some kind of hype. I know you'd like to really get an idea of what the aftermath is before you watch. Yes. So I just take it as when you watch something I've suggested. I don't take it personal. I just wanted to give you our time. I like to pretend that I planted the seed. And it just finally grew. It's so good. It's incredible.
Enn Burke:It's so so good. So, so funny. So like, you know, relatable. Yeah, I loved it.
Matt Molinaro:It's such a great exploration into like, the very real things that happened to people during quarantine. The in a way that's not like smack you in the face with it. Correct. And I cried. There were a couple of moments. I completely unexpectedly teared up.
Enn Burke:I haven't gotten to the most like, so I've listened to the album but I haven't finished watching the documentary or whatever, you know, special special. Yeah. But so I haven't gotten to I think like the more emotion All songs yet I've kind of gotten more of the funny FaceTime with my mom tonight is so fucking
Matt Molinaro:good one woman's Instagram is probably one of my favorite ones.
Enn Burke:I knew when I was watching it. I was like I pretty sure Matt has seen this because I had a I had like a tickle in the back of my memory about white woman's Instagram.
Matt Molinaro:It's so good. It's just really I listen to the soundtrack to it quite a bit, actually. Especially when I'm working. Yeah, Ill I've said X specially twice today. What is wrong with me? I'm not sure I want to I want to crawl into a hole X specially who am I? Anyway?
Enn Burke:Well, great. Should we start talking about the actual episode? No.
Matt Molinaro:No, let's just keep chatting about language and
Enn Burke:an X man Saturday morning
Matt Molinaro:cartoon next man especially. Yeah, let's,
Enn Burke:let's see what I mean. That's why you were saying it x specially
Matt Molinaro:I'll give myself that. I'm going to try to pretend like that's the reason and not that I forgot how to use my mouth and throat. Great. All right, well, away we go. Yes. All right. This is going to be season four, episode seven of lawn order. And the title of it, I think is apocrypha. Yes. Which I had to look up because what it's
Enn Burke:like the religious stuff that's not written down, right?
Matt Molinaro:Yeah, I'm gonna just gonna read the quote from I think from I think I got from Google or Wikipedia or something. It says, In biblical literature, works outside of an accepted canon of Scripture are known as apocrypha. And the history of the terms usage indicates that it's referred to a body of esoteric writings that were at first prized, later tolerated, and finally excluded. Ah, okay, interesting, right? I'm gonna go law and order and getting getting deep with your title,
Enn Burke:medical.
Matt Molinaro:So the episode starts, and we are following a young woman with a French twist in her hair in her car, and first she's getting her windshield washed against her will and traffic, then she goes into a parking structure. And the guy who runs the booths make some sort of comment about her car that I I rewound twice, and I still don't understand. So then, as one of the, the workers at the front gate, who's kind of hot actually, he walks away to get a coffee. Behind him, there's an explosion from within the parking structure. And I have to say, I don't know what kind of budget Law and Order had, but it looks really good. Yeah, so it's very shocking, of course, emergency vehicles and the bomb squad show up. And then our detectives are on the scene. And they're told that this was probably a car bomb from within. And you know, since law and order doesn't really bear the lead to Well, it's, we're limited believe it's the French twist. It's Carbone. Yeah. Oh, yeah. So then the opening credits begin. And I had a little bit of time, so I decided to do a little activity. Great. So I started candlemaking. I melted and dyed some wax, I cast a mold of my hand, laid some wicks in the mold up my fingers. Uh huh. Then I poured the wax. And as I was setting the cooling, I came back to the episode,
Enn Burke:I'm pretty sure that I did that in like some sort of summer school thing.
Matt Molinaro:That was something I always wanted to do. Like, I don't know where kids did it, who was like summer camp or things, but kids always had like, these fun molds of their hand with their finger out and a candle wick. And I was like, I want one of those.
Enn Burke:I'm pretty sure that I know I did candle making at one like summer school thing that I did, but I can't remember if it was a hand or not, I'm gonna do it. I mean, you could I could
Matt Molinaro:next law and order, I'll really do it. So we're back. And we're at some sort of garage mechanic type place that the police use, and there's a expert mechanic, and he's telling the detectives that this bomb was pretty well made. And he tells Logan take a whiff. And then Logan puts his hand onto the evidence his bare hand and smells it and identifies where the fertilizer came from.
Enn Burke:So this is probably the like seventh or eighth time that Logan has smelled evidence and been able to figure something out. He's like, scruff, the grace, right? Like in some of these recent seasons, I feel like
Matt Molinaro:yeah, he's the he's become an expert in identifying the location in this case of literal shit. Yes, so that might be maybe that was on his resume.
Enn Burke:Maybe expert sniffer expert sniffer.
Matt Molinaro:We also find out that there were condoms nearby which is a weird detail but we find out that it was they were using the A text from them to possibly create the bomb. And Logan goes, I never did like those things. There. Okay, there it is Logan, then we're at the station and Lieutenant Van Buren says that everyone in the lunatic fringe is claiming credit for this
Unknown:lunatic fringe,
Matt Molinaro:then detective asked Jeeves comes in with registration to the vehicle. And he says, you know, we know where the bomb was stored. So here we go, this is who we're looking for. And it's for a man named Assad. Assad a solemn doesn't really matter. On the way to see him Logan make some comments about immigration that made me almost set my TV on fire. And then they go meet him and they bring him into the station for interrogation, we find out that he's a businessman. And he says that his car was stolen the night before. And they're like A likely story. Despite their racism towards him, it turns out that his alibi totally checks out. He's a government guy, and he was with some other government dudes in America on the day, so they're like, Okay, well, he's with American government, dude. So we believe them. Whatever. So they're like, Okay, well, let's, let's try to figure out some other kind of ankle. So it seems as though there was only one victim of the bombing, which I thought was kind of unexpected, since it was such a huge explosion. Yeah, but there, there was only one victim. And so it turns out, it's a 19 year old girl. And she had traces of like bomb stuff under her nails. And so you know, we're assuming it's the French Twist girl from before. Yeah. And they're like, Okay, well, we're gonna track down who she is. But no one's really claimed her. And they think that's kind of unusual. They don't know she's 19 yet, but she's clearly a teen. So they're like, well, she's probably a missing person. If no one has claimed her and she's been, you know, killed. They check missing person record. And because the victim had a tattoo, and some dental records, they're able to identify her as 19 year old Wendy Berman. And Wendy was a runaway from five years ago. So they're right on track. So they're gonna meet with Wendy's mom, and she's very fancy and elegant. And she's very Lifetime movie mom vibes. She's very short, blonde Bob, lots of dramatic pauses and look away from the cameras that could have put that dramatic like high pitch music behind her at any time. That's like. So she says that Wendy's life was pretty idyllic until her father died of a heart attack unexpectedly when she was 13. And she was away at equestrian camp. And after that, she started becoming promiscuous and doing drugs and running away. And she hasn't heard from her. But her last contact with her was a letter she sent a year ago saying she was okay. But it would be dangerous to contact her. And she didn't know what would happen if she tried to. Why write a letter to say you're okay, if you're just gonna say Don't contact me.
Enn Burke:I mean, I guess to like, keep them from looking,
Matt Molinaro:I guess. But it's been five years. Yeah. And then yeah, even more bizarre for someone who's run away from home and trying to keep a low profile. They get the letter, and it has a return address on it. Yeah, that's so why will very le have never tried to track her down? Right. It's literally gotten that anyway. So in the letter, there's like some sort of cryptic religious messaging in it, and they have that return address. So they're like, alright, well, let's go tracker down since the mom didn't care to track down her equestrian daughter. And by the way, since they made of few references to her being at equestrian camp, I thought they're going to try to do something with like, Horse,
Enn Burke:horse girl horse
Unknown:that they're going to try to do horse girls, or school stuff.
Matt Molinaro:They I thought they were going to do something like horse manure, knowing how to use my new word and pickup. Oh, yeah, but they don't. Yeah, I missed opportunity. Yeah, horse girl stuff. There's the episode title right there. Anyway, they get there and they find the return address and it's some sort of building that's kind of unclear. But when they go inside, they find a room that has the door closed and they hear very loud prayer going on from within. They go inside and we're treated to a scene from American Horror Story prayer circle. Yes, it's two men and four women with their eyes closed smiles plastered on their faces, kneeling in a circle with their hands held by each other and They don't flinch at all when the detectives barge through the door. So we get cut to a scene next where they have the leader of this little group called Donald in questioning. And he says his church is open to everyone who and he has no idea who it is when the girl is then Logan in another room is interrogating one of the girls from the circle. And she can't really decide style wise if she is member of the Manson family or if she's auditioning for Sister Wives. Little bit of both. Yeah, she's a runaway as well. And she says she loves her church and they found her and they've, you know, saved her life essentially. And then asked Jeeves detective pops in and says that Daniel Hendricks is here and he says he's the Grand Poobah. Okay, Nobody says that. Nobody says that. So they're like, alright, we'll get back to her. And they talked to Daniel. He is the head of this church organization. And he recognizes Wendy from her picture and says that she was a sex worker when he met her. And he calls her Ruth. Hi, Ruth. Ruth had disappeared months ago, according to him, though, so he has no idea where she had been. And you know, they were worried about her. But everyone in his church is free to come and go as they please. And he's like, are we done? And he leaves? Everyone has kind of weird vibes from him. I mean, so do I. So they just had to dig into his past. And they see that a Lutheran church has a restraining order against him. So they go to talk to the representative from the church. And he says that Daniel was well versed in Scripture, and he was, you know, he seemed like a great guy, but he was nuts. And that his new quote, unquote, church is more like a cult. Wait. Yeah. I mean, I think we kind of got that vibe when we saw that little weird prayer circle. Yeah. So they go to meet with Daniel's mom. And she hands out empty coffee cups to everybody.
Enn Burke:Nothing makes me angrier than that.
Matt Molinaro:This was even worse than like the empty coffee cups that you've pointed out to me. Because at least those have lids. These are literally mugs. She's holding three mugs in one hand. Like all by the handle, they're all tipping towards the camera. You could clearly see this not a drop in any of them. And then they're all having a fake tea party. Yes. Would you like more milk and they're like using like a
Unknown:splatter stick?
Enn Burke:Yes. Little Barbie Dream set Tikka does exactly what
Matt Molinaro:it was. So they all sit there having a little fake coffee party. And the mom says that she thought Daniel will become an actor when he grew up. And she recognizes Ruth, quote unquote, Ruth slash Wendy from the picture. And she says that Daniel and Ruth were over about a month ago. So that doesn't really jive with his story about not seeing her in months. And just kind of knowing her as a member of the congregation. Why would he bring her home to mom? Right? So then they find out more information about Daniel, he was discharged from the military. So that means that he is experienced with bombs. They also tracked down where Daniel and Wendy had bought diesel fuel from before the bombing. And then the detectives figure they have enough and they go arrest Daniel in the middle of in the middle of a church or service that he's giving. But when they enter the church service, I'm using this very loosely, because when they open the door, he's like shouting this sermon or whatever. And all of the members of the congregation are kneeling on the ground before him. And it's the most unusual kneeling position of all time where they're all like leaning back super uncomfortably. Very strange. They arrest him, he gets dragged out, and then the order part begins. So Hendrix's lawyer says that they have nothing on him except that he was in his girlfriend's car. And he just presumed that that car was his girlfriend's mom's or dads. It's not even stolen. How is she? How was he supposed to know? And because she's not totally wrong, that they really don't have much. The DHS team decides to talk to some of the congregation's families to see if they can get more info from people who are not totally on the inside. Right. Then they talk to an ex member whose wife is still in the church. And he says that he and his daughter left when the kids started calling and Daniel daddy wise move. Kincaid wonders if they can make a case for kidnapping against Daniel Hendricks because all of the folks in the church were brainwashed and essentially powerless to leave. And so maybe that's what they can get him on if they can't get him for, you know, murder. Yeah. His defense attorney says quote As they bring this idea to his defense attorney, and say that they're going to charge from kidnapping because of the brainwashing, because they felt like they were powerless to leave, and she says, quote, I can't leave Rupal Meyers without having a hunker cheesecake.
Unknown:Are you gonna give the chef 25 to live?
Enn Burke:Rumble Meyers,
Matt Molinaro:I know I had to look it up and see if it's a real place. But apparently, it's a very well known establishment in New York. Okay, I can't leave some places without having a hunk of cheesecake even though so I got
Enn Burke:that I could pass cheesecake. Pretty well, pretty easily. I
Matt Molinaro:love cheesecake.
Enn Burke:I think it's, I mean, it's better than cake, but it's a
Matt Molinaro:golden girl. So she adds it to this argument saying that her client isn't really guilty. And she's going to be claiming, he's not guilty by reason of mental defect for any crime that they even tried to present. So he needs professional help not jail. And he's like, see for years, she says, see for yourself if you want. So they get all of that to evaluate him. And during her evaluation interview, he tells her that we are living in Babylon, and that the fornicators adulterers and sodomites are ruining the world. He says that God has commanded them to a higher purpose. So afterwards, all of it explains to the TAs team that she kind of agrees that this guy is not competent to stand trial and that he needs help. She says that during her interview, she found out that his turning point was probably when his brother had died of an overdose. And he blames the money people and distributors as the reason his brother died and his family changed forever. So it also just so happens that the location where he's at the bomb, and where I think other potential bomb threats were underway. We're all under investigation for money laundering scheme is related to drugs. So she's like, he probably can't be held legally responsible. So in the pre trial hearing, the defense and Kincaid both agree that they're going to, you know, have him plead guilty by reason of mental defect, and be sent to a mental health facility. So everyone's on board with this plan, except for Daniel Hendricks. And he's like, I don't like this, I reject this. And he fires his attorney on the spot and says, I'm changing my pleaded not guilty. And so we're on to a trial. So in trial on the stand first is an ex member who we spoke to earlier who said he had to sue to get his daughter out of the church. And he testifies that Daniel scared his wife into staying a member by saying that those do not follow Him will drown in a river of fire. on cross examination, he's very, very intense. on cross examination, defense attorney says, Do you think your wife thought it was a literal river of fire? Like, that's all you got? Yeah. Then the victim is mom testifies. She says that she had no idea that Wendy was involved in this type of thing. And then stolen has her read a portion of the letter out loud, where she quotes that, you know, she was scared what would happen to her if anyone tried to find her? So then on cross examination, the defense attorney paints the victim as someone who has suicidal ideations previously, and she can't be trusted anyway. And so, next we have the daughter of the first witness on the stand, the one who, we haven't met her yet, but she is essentially Jeanette from the chip that's very cute. She testifies to what she's heard in the church about Daniel or sorry, she testifies to what she's heard in the church, and Daniel had told her that her father would be chained and eaten by worms for forsaking the lamb. The lamb being Daniel, by the way,
Enn Burke:are these worms like the ones from beetle juice or something?
Matt Molinaro:Like sandworms? Yeah, I'm imagining like mealworms maggot. I wish it was I imagined right now like a sand from just came up from the bottom of the courtroom and just snapped over a verb up.
Enn Burke:That'd be pretty amazing.
Matt Molinaro:That would change everything. Basically, she says the same thing about the river of fire. She's heard about it as well not to be confused with the Ring of Fire, or the river of life. on cross examination, she simply asked if she was ever told about a bomb. She says no, but why would a child be told about a bomb? Right? Finally, Daniel takes the stand for himself. And he says that he helps us members run toward God, and they will find peace and happiness yada Laude D. He says that Wendy had given up drugs and sex work for the church, and he's never heard of a bomb from her. And he's never told her to plant a bomb knows nothing about one. Then he tells stone that He Have dissuaded Wendy from any sort of violence, and he spouts some stuff about money being evil and mentions that all parts of the like all of these things about the apocalypse are coming to fruition. And he says that the Messiah will lead the worldly to God. Then he says that no one can live without him. And that he is basically like the be all and end all. So stone starts challenging him with biblical context and different scriptures about false prophets and false gods and, you know, not holding any God before. So Lord, yeah. And he gets very frustrated, he says nothing back. He has a little silent fit on the stand. And then closing arguments happen, and the jury comes back finding the defendant guilty of kidnapping and murder to he turns around to the audience in the courtroom, opens his hands and he has bloody palms, signifying like the stigmata and all of his followers like swoon. Then we cut from this very strange scene to a very, like McCobb moment where the police are at that church. And we're shown that there's all of his followers lying dead on the ground. And there's no like wounds, so it's probably like poison. And Logan and Briscoe look over them all mournfully. And we hear in the background, there's more in the other room. And that is the end of this dark episode.
Enn Burke:Great job.
Matt Molinaro:Thank you. I was trying to take up through it quickly, because I I'm very interested to hear what this is based on.
Enn Burke:Do you have any guesses? Well, in the episode, they
Matt Molinaro:mentioned the Scopes Trial. So I looked into that one, and I don't think it would be that one. It's not so I mean, it's not Jonestown, isn't it? No. Okay. I mean, it's got to be culty. I'm guessing.
Enn Burke:Okay. Well, this episode is based on a story that I will say is, is so big and so strange that we could literally do an entire podcast series just about this case. So by virtue of that, I had to leave a lot of stuff out so it's not like I did a bad job researching this. It's I had to choose what stock about because there was so much Wow, okay, I'm, I'm ready. So this is the story of Charles Manson. Wow.
Matt Molinaro:Wow. I mean, I guess those Manson vibes were were very real then.
Enn Burke:I know the minute you said that. That woman had like Charles Manson any or mansoni clothing. Is that what you said?
Matt Molinaro:You're just styling like the the way she spoke? was very, like the Manson girls spoke. Yeah, yeah.
Enn Burke:Well, here we go. Wow. So Charles Manson. I will also say that his early life is not particularly well documented. So there's like a little bit of not like an air of mystery, but some specifics that aren't necessarily like readily available. Lots of blanks. Yeah. So he was born November 12 1934, in Cincinnati, and it was so funny researching this case, I was like, Manson has always held such a like, cultural like death grip on, like, cults and like serial killer, you know, type stuff that I was like, I was kind of shocked to learn how old he was, you know, like it to me seems like he's still alive and current and like in his 30s or 40s, or something just because of how much of a death grip he has on the that kind of vibe.
Matt Molinaro:Anyway, he's so like, synonymous with cults. Yeah.
Enn Burke:Yeah. So his mother's name was Kathleen Maddox. And she had Manson when she was 15. And he was originally his last name was originally Maddox as well. And his father, this is kind of like where the vagueness comes in. So a lot of the articles talk about how his father like appears to be because they it sounds like they didn't ever really have, like official documentation of who his father was. But a man named Colonel Walker Henderson, Scott, who, I guess like kind of skipped town when he found out that Manson's mother was pregnant. But she had him legally declared as Manson's father. And then he he was apparently kind of a con artist. He, his first name was Colonel, but he apparently used that as a way to convince people that he was like in the military, okay. And this was kind of like the pre two And that he skipped town under when he found out Kathleen was pregnant was he was like, Oh, I have to like I'm being assigned out. I have to like go away on some army business. But then like when she didn't hear from him for several months, she was like, Oh, he's not coming back.
Matt Molinaro:He's much more Chronos Colonel Sanders. A
Enn Burke:word Colonel Mustard. Well, I guess Colonel Mustard was a colonel anyway. So prior to Manson's birth, his mother, Kathleen actually married a man named William Eugene Manson. So that's where his last name comes from. Okay. And he worked kind of as a local at a local dry cleaner. And Kathleen appears to not really have been the ideal mother by most of the things that I have read sounds like she had a bit of a drinking problem. And she would often just like drop Manson off with like, various friends and family members so that she could go out partying with her brother. Okay, which you know, live your life and all that, but it sounds like she kind of just did that a lot and wasn't really present for him a lot of the time, based on what I read.
Matt Molinaro:Yeah, do your thing, but probably not at the expense of the child that you're supposed to be, you know, in responsible for solely.
Enn Burke:Exactly. Yes. By the way, for this case, I watched a six hour documentary series. Wow. And I will say also, the name of it is like Helter Skelter, and then it has like a sub headline, okay, it's not the movie. It's a documentary series. It's, um, it's very comprehensive, but it's not particularly interesting. And the way that it's structured like it's, it gives such so much minut detail type stuff that I think makes it really kind of a chore to get through, in my opinion,
Matt Molinaro:how old was it like old or? I mean, not like asking you exactly when it came out. But is it more recent? Or you think it's an older one?
Enn Burke:No, I think it's recent. Let me just look it up really quickly.
Matt Molinaro:was on like Netflix or something?
Enn Burke:No, I had to sign up for a service called like, epics epi x to watch it. Oh, okay. Okay. Oh, yeah. So it was 2020. And it's got like a seven out of 10 on IMDb. So like, seems like people agree with me that it wasn't the most wonderful
Matt Molinaro:thing. Okay. Okay. Good to know.
Enn Burke:So when done so. Okay. So when Manson was a young child, his mother, Kathleen and her brother were both arrested for assault and robbery. Because in addition to like going out and partying, it sounds like they robbed people. And so she was sentenced to five years in prison, and her brother was sentenced to 10. And while Manson was or while she was in prison, Manson was placed with his aunt and uncle in West Virginia, until she was paroled in 1942. So she didn't end up spending the full five years, but I think she was gone for three ish, when he was a pretty young child. So Manson also appears to not have been a very well behaved kid. He got in a lot of trouble as a youth. For things like petty theft, he started fires, which we know the what the starting fires things. Yeah, it's yes. And so he ended up being placed in a school for delinquent boys. And that's what a lot of the articles used to term it. What I will say also, is that this documentary, and like every article about Manson kind of talks about him being like in and out of incarceration, so I'm not gonna go over every single one, because there's far too many, right? But he was he was in and out of a lot of different facilities over the years. Okay, that's okay. So, yes. And also later as an adult. Sure. So he ran away from this school, and also from home a few times over the years. But when he whenever he would run away, he would go back to his mom, who would then like, bring him right back to the school only for him to run away again. And when he was 14, or 15, it sounds like he was able to get away from the boys schools for a while, and worked for Western Union. And apparently, he it seems like he was trying to maybe not live a life of crime at that point in time. But, you know, he was like, I'm gonna have a regular job yadda yadda. But he eventually started stealing again, as a way to kind of like make more money, and so he was sent back to another juvenile facility. At that juvenile facility, he was there for four days, and he and a classmate stole a gun and Car and committed to armed robberies. So he was then arrested and sent to a very strict juvenile facility. And in the documentary that I watched, it sounds like this facility was a pretty brutal place. The documentary spent a good amount of time talking about how Manson was raped and also raped other boys at the school. And apparently this was encouraged by one of the staff members like it was in Manson in some interviews when they asked him about that he's like, Yeah, so what like, it just seems like it was such a, like violent place that it was, it became kind of like normal to him. You know what I mean? Yeah. But Manson was never a very big kid or a very big adult. And so he was picked on a lot, and was often the target for sexual assault. And so he ran away from this facility 18 times, and eventually developed a technique to protect himself, which he called the insane game, where he would if like, people were picking on him or like about to assault him, he would essentially like, yell and scream and jump around and wave his arms around, like really frantically to make his attackers think that he was like, crazy, you know? Yeah. And that was kind of his survival technique. Wow. So eventually, he and a few classmates escaped the facility, and went on a spree of robbing gas stations along Route to California. And on this kind of journey of crime, he was arrested and set to yet another juvenile facility where he was given aptitude tests that determined that he was very intelligent. He had an above average IQ, but he was functionally illiterate. So Manson's aunt who had housed him for a time when his mom was in prison, appealed to the facility where he was being housed, to have him transferred to a minimum security institution near where she lived, so that she could visit him and told them that she would give him a place to stay when he was released, and she would help him find work. Just before his parole hearing, he was caught raping another boy at the facility at knifepoint. So that kind of put a wrench in the works for that. And he, in kind of all of these facilities, that sounds like he would get into trouble for various things, but most of it appears to be like violent sexual assault related stuff. He was eventually released in 1954. And at this point, he's 20 years old, and for a little while, he lived with his aunt and uncle. And he actually got married to a woman named Rosalie Willis, about whom I didn't have much time to kind of like, investigate. But it sounds like she got pregnant. And he was like, okay, you know what, we're going to move to Los Angeles. And so he stole a car to drive them to Los Angeles. And he was arrested for having for stealing a car and sentenced to five years. And he was sentenced to five years of probation for that, but he failed to appear at his court hearing. And so the probation was revoked. And he was sentenced to three years in prison in Los Angeles, us, okay, it sounds like Manson's son. One of the articles that I read talked about how he felt like he could never really kind of escaped the association with his father, ultimately. And so eventually, he ended up dying by suicide in the mid 90s. So sad. I know. So well in prison in Los Angeles, Manson apparently became really enamored with the pimps in prison. And were like kind of buddied up to them would talk to them about like, how do you be a pimp? Like what are the strategies? How do you succeed at it, and upon one of his many releases, he attempted to procure young women and girls to pimp them out. So he kind of enjoyed that control over people who were particularly vulnerable, as we've seen with his history so far. And during another one of his imprisonments, he also got guitar lessons from an inmate from a couple of inmates. And eventually through one of them got connected to somebody at Universal Studios, who was a record producer named Phil Kaufman. And both the like pimping aspect, and the music aspect will end up being kind of pivotal for his later years. So I've mentioned those as a way to kind of like we'll come back to that right. So eventually he was released from prison in 1960. Seven at 32 years old, and at this point had spent more than half of his life incarcerated. Gee, isn't that terrible? That is terrible. So, up, up, up, up, up, okay. So once he was released, he decided to move to Berkeley, California. And this was, as I said, kind of in the mid to late 70s, or 60s, which was, you know, right at the kind of peak of the like hippie counterculture movement. Through his probation, he got connected to a researcher at the Haight Ashbury free medical clinic, and this researcher was named Roger Smith, and kind of the agreement was that he would serve his probation, through this clinic participating in research around the effects of LSD and methamphetamines. Which, you know, yeah, adding adding fuel to the fire, or there had to
Matt Molinaro:have been a better way to handle all of the terrible things he did. Other than all of this seemingly meaningless incarceration,
Enn Burke:and then giving him a bunch of drugs and giving him a bunch of drugs. Yeah, yeah. So he was kind of like out on probation, but with spent a lot of time at this clinic being administered with LSD and methamphetamines. And he also kind of was able to get a kind of a group of followers together are particularly young women, who he would also take to the clinic and all of them kind of like took LSD together and methamphetamines together. And so it was during this period of time that Manson kind of started to fashion himself as a sort of Guru. And like, you know, would preach to people his own philosophy about life in the world. Which, you know, I imagine when you are a manipulative, you know, person who can easily manipulate vulnerable people who are also like, tripping on drugs constantly. Yeah, it's, they probably thought he was like, so wise and sure, in touch with the divine or whatever. So his his kind of philosophy of the life and the world. He based on he kind of like cobbled together from a science fiction book called Stranger in a Strange Land. Bible, have you? Yeah. Funny, I've never read it. It's kind of fun. The Bible Scientology, and he also like based it on Dale Carnegie's book, How to Win Friends and Influence People. Wow. Okay. And also, the music of the Beatles would come into play into this as well. So this was kind of the early formation of his cult that would call come to be known as the family. So the family was pretty small. At first, it was, you know, these young women who he was kind of pulling into this clinic to get high with him. But it grew pretty quickly. And because of his background in prison and his knowledge of how to work as a pimp, he was really easily able to identify and target vulnerable people who like the documentary often referred to as like the misfits of society. Right. Okay. Which again, like the period of time that this was happening, also really lent itself to that because it was, there was so much, you know, like rebelling against the system. And
Matt Molinaro:like, yeah, it just sent from like, what your parents were doing and exactly what was going on in the world. And there was a lot of like, what's the word I'm looking for? Not anarchy, but
Enn Burke:counterculture? Yeah,
Matt Molinaro:there you go. Yeah.
Enn Burke:Yeah, it was, it was kind of like the perfect storm of things that contributed to this. And like most cult leaders, part of Manson's kind of indoctrination of the members of the family was distancing them from their family and friends, and convincing them that the outside world had everything wrong. And he kind of like preached a lot of like, love and, you know, the rules of society shouldn't apply to you. That's like, not the natural order, blah, blah, blah, that kind of stuff. So it was it was a he not only distanced people from them, but then convince those people that the way that they that their previous friends and family saw the world was incorrect,
Matt Molinaro:right, which probably wasn't very hard to believe at the time because there was a lot of terrible shit going on. And people were finally questioning things that were just beliefs before.
Enn Burke:Yes, yes, yes. Yes. So in the documentary, they have a lot of, they interview a lot of former members of the family and they also include We had a lot of recordings of members from the members of the family. And they would kind of talk a lot about how Manson had this supposedly like happiness that really brought them together that he was like just this really, at his core a good and happy person. And that was kind of what drew them to him. Conversely, David Smith, who was the LSD researcher that he had gotten connected with, talked about how Manson attempted to reprogram his followers to, quote submit totally to His will, through the use of LSD and unconventional sex practices tunnel turning the minds of his followers into empty vessels. So that's kind of the what the LSD researcher who was working with Manson said about how he manipulated his people. And so through kind of, you know, giving people drugs, getting them high, preying on vulnerable people and prostituting them. Manson grew the family to a group of about like 20 people within the first year that he was in Berkeley, and then decided to relocate the group to Los Angeles. Because, again, Manson was really interested in music and was really wanted to have like a recording career. So in April of 1968, while they are in the Los Angeles area, Dennis Wilson, who was the drummer for the Beach Boys, was driving through Malibu when he saw two women hitchhikers, both of whom were members of the family. This is Patricia Crenn Winkle and Ella Jo Bailey. And you know, this was again, in the 60s, people picked up hitchhikers like without thinking about it back then. So he picked them both up and gave them a ride and kind of like dropped them off where they were going. And then a couple of days later, he saw the two same women hike hiking or hitchhiking again. And so he picked them up again. And this time, he took them to his home on Sunset Boulevard, and kind of was like, you know, I'm not sure what the conversation between the three of them was that led him to make that decision. But when he went, he like, left and went to a recording session. And when he came home that night, Charles Manson was in his driveway, and about a dozen members of the family were inside of his house, which apparently didn't seem to be a big problem for Wilson. It sounds like he was kind of intrigued by Manson at first, and he and Manson like bonded over music. And it'll probably come as no surprise to you that Manson thought of himself as like a musical prodigy, and was so frustrated that like the world wasn't seeing his genius. And so he was able to manipulate Wilson to allow him and his family to like stay in his really nice home. Which eventually kind of turned into like the family stayed in his main house and Wilson went and like slept in the guest house on his property. So they like essentially kind of kicked him out of his own house. In the the exact eventually this kind of soured, but the exact reasoning of Wilson and Manson's relationship going south are a little bit fuzzy. But Manson and some of the family members claimed that the Beach Boys stole one of Manson songs and retitled it without crediting Manson. However, the Beach Boys apparently did give him like a one time payment and a motorcycle for the rights to the song. But Manson I'm like thought that this wasn't sufficient or whatever. And so he and Wilson started arguing. And it kind of like came to a head when apparently Manson gave Wilson a bullet and essentially said that there are plenty more where this came from and like he knew where Wilson's children lived. And so Wilson was like we're done. Yeah. And so the family left Wilson's home and moved to a property called spawn ranch SP h n. And spawn Ranch was still in LA County. It was the former movie set of a lot of old western movies. So it had like a bunch of buildings, but like, movie set buildings, right, like not necessarily like right home, or like livable spaces. But the caretaker or the owner of the ranch was a man named George spawn and he was an elderly man and he was blind and so the family was able to kind of prey upon that and ingratiate themselves with him and were able to like stay rent free in exchange for like fixing up the his house and, you know, mucking out the stables and renting out Horses for horseback riding. So they kind of like took on a lot of the farm labor, I guess in exchange for free rent basically.
Matt Molinaro:Gotcha. Okay.
Enn Burke:So the lived for a while on Spawn ranch, and they the documentary would talk about how they would like dumpster dive for food, they would smoke a lot of weed. They did a lot of LSD. And the family, as I mentioned, like the LSD researcher kind of talked about, like, unconventional sex practices. So it sounds essentially what happened was they would get really high, and then they would have what Manson would call a love in, which was just a big origin, right? So they were basically just like having sex and getting high all the time. Right. researching this case was actually really interesting, because I had like a vague sense of Charles Manson story, but I've never known all of the details of it. So one of the things that I didn't know about Charles Manson, although I should have guessed, is that he was a super racist, white supremacist. Yeah. And if, if you like look at his photos later in life, he has a swastika tattooed on the center of his forehead. So that should have clicked for me, but for some reason, I didn't ever associate it with what was going on with his cult. So yeah, anyway,
Matt Molinaro:I didn't know about that in his early life. I only knew about that stuff because he would do these ridiculous interviews later in life in prison with all this bullshit.
Enn Burke:Yeah. So on the ranch on Spawn Ranch was a ranch hand named Donald shorty. Che shorty was his nickname, who apparently he and Manson had kind of like, met once before the family moved onto the ranch. And it sounds like he and Manson did not get along. And part of the reason for that was that che had been married to a black woman before they were now divorced. But Manson was like, would of course like spout all this super racist bullshit. And che didn't like that, because he had been married to a black woman. And also, you know, just integrity. So it wouldn't be discovered for more than eight years following kind of a confrontation that they had. But Manson decided that she needed to be killed because he believed. So the police had like temporarily like not temporarily, the police had raided Spahn Ranch, thinking that the family was responsible for like a car theft ring. And Manson was convinced that che had been the one to like call the police and tell them about the family and have them kind of like arrested and taken into custody. So he had like a major revenge need against che both because of that, and also because of racism. Following that confrontation that they had about that police raid, on August 26 of 1969, which was 10 days after the police raid, Manson told His followers, Bruce Davis, Steve Grogan, and Tex Watson that they needed to kill che. So they like lured che to a kind of remote area of the ranch, and they stabbed him to death. And according to testimony from Davis, who was one of the people who killed him, they like killed him, cut his body into nine pieces so that they could like hide it more easily. And together with some of the women of the family, they disposed of all of his belongings and his car, and his body would not be discovered until 1977. So more of this will kind of like play out in the meantime. But it sounds like that was sort of the first murder that the family carried out. So the belief system of the family is important for kind of the rest of the story. Because Manson, as I said, was like preaching his own philosophy of the world. And part of that was in the documentary. I can't I didn't write down who says it, but one of them says that the belief system was essentially, there is no crime, there is no sin, the world is just a game and God would come down and was going to just like restart the game with his chosen ones. So it was kind of a way of absolving themselves of any consequences or fault for doing anything illegal or what we would consider immoral often. And this was all happening in kind of the the midst of the Civil Rights Movement, right. And also kind of like right around the time of the assassinations of Malcolm X and Martin Luther King Jr. And so, as we you know, when I covered the Malcolm X assassination, we talked a lot about how there were different strategies employed by the black community to gain In civil rights, some of them were, you know, pacifist in orientation, some of them were, you know, more protests and different strategies, right. So Manson and the family would see on the news like news of like civil unrest, essentially, that involves the black community. And he was able to convince his family members that a race war was impending. And his belief that he said, you know, was from God, and also from the Beatles, which I'll come to in a minute, was that a race war was coming. And there one of two things was going to happen as a result of that, that either white people would win and black people would be re enslaved, or black people would kill almost all of the white people. And then his belief was that because black people wouldn't be able to handle the power of the world. They would then hand it back over to the white survivors of the race war. And he intended for him and his family to be survivors of the race war and then have like power over the world essentially, really charming guy. So he, he really latched on to a Beatle song from the White album called Helter Skelter. And he played this all the time and talked about the Beatles all the time to the family. And he apparently saw he supposedly saw like coded messages in the song helter skelter that were directed to him about the impending race war. And I went, just out of curiosity, I went and, like listened to helter skelter and read the lyrics. And I was like, it's it didn't It's doesn't make any sense. Like, there's no nothing that can really be extrapolated from that. That would have made any sense for anyone else besides Manson, apparently. Yeah, I never really got that. Yeah. So he was playing that all the time and talking to them about this impending race war, and was telling the members of the family that they were going to be the chosen ones, and that they needed to like collect the most beautiful people, of course, white people, so that they could repopulate the earth after the race war. And so they kind of became like a doomsday cult. And they started like amassing guns, and were like, really obsessed with getting money as well, so that they could like, move the entire family to a another kind of area of property near death valley, which I guess they thought this would be an area of the world that will survive the race war, we can live there and wait it out. And then you know, take power over the world. So this kind of really violent and racist period of Manson in the family appears to have been like, there was a moment that kind of like tipped it over. And, and that moment was when Manson shot a man named Bernard Crowe who was a black man who was a drug dealer who essentially members of the family had tried to defraud him and rob him. And CRO essentially was like, you get you give me my money back, and you give it to me now. And Manson's response was to shoot him. And then a couple days later on the news, they saw a report of the body of a Black Panther member having been discovered. And so Manson thought that that he was wrong, but he thought that it was crow that he had shot, and that he was like, Oh, God, I killed a black panther member. And they're gonna come after us now. Right? So he became like, really paranoid about the Black Panther movement, or the Black Panther organization and then coming for revenge. Ironically, crow survived, like he didn't, he didn't kill him. So anyway, so in the documentary, one of the family members talks about how everything changed after that Bernard crow shooting because he thought he had killed him. They were afraid of retaliation. And she said that he just became like, crazed and obsessed with getting money, getting guns and moving the family off of spawn ranch into Death Valley, which, eventually they did.
Matt Molinaro:Yeah, I would argue he was already crazed.
Enn Burke:Yes, yes. So oftentimes, in the story of the Manson family, there is a person who is overlooked or kind of like He's described as like the Forgotten murderer of the Manson family. I would say like Che was actually also I would say in that category, because they didn't find him for like years, but they murdered another man named Gary Hinman. So Gary Hinman was a 34 year old student at UCLA who was getting a PhD in Sociology, for sociology, and he worked part time as a music shop. So according to some reports, he also sold a small amount of mescaline or marijuana for extra money. And he met one of the family members named Bobby Buso Leigh, who, I guess they lived together for a time. And they offered Gary membership in the family. But Gary was apparently a Buddhist. So he declined the offer to join the family. But he did like know them and like, you know, was associated with a couple of members. Some say that he was murdered because he rejected joining the family. But there are some other motivations that I'll now get into. So Bobby bluesoleil would say in 2018, that Gary had been murdered because Gary had sold them mescaline that they had been then given to a group of bikers who were associated with the family. So at some point, the family on Spawn ranch seems to have had an association with like a biker gang. Okay. And Bobby bluesoleil story is that Gary had sold them mescaline that then they had given to the biker gang. And the biker gangs said that it like wasn't good, and that they wanted their money back. And so they contacted Gary and they were like, give us give us our money back. It was not good drugs, essentially. And so Bobby bluesoleil says that was the motivation for the murder. Other folks have said that the motivation for the murder was that this was in the period of time where Manson really wanted the family to have a bunch of money. And there was apparently a rumor that Gary had recently come into about $30,000 of inheritance. And so some people are saying that they killed Gary to get that money. Okay, so, Bobby bluesoleil, Mary Brunner and Susan Atkins, all members of the family went to Gary's home to try to get money from him whether it was repayment or like reimbursement for bad drugs or, you know, stealing his inheritance. They went and tried to get money out of him. But he, it turns out, he had nothing like he he showed them eventually that he had like $50 in his bank account, he had not inherited $30,000. And so when they found out that he didn't have the money for them, Bobby bluesoleil Beat him, while Mary and Susan ran around his apartment looking for anything of value that they could steal. And eventually, they through, you know, assault and intimidation. Were able to get Gary to sign over the title for two of his vehicles to the family while they were beating him up and stealing his stuff. I think it was Bobby called Manson and told him that Gary didn't have the money. And so then Manson. According to bluesoleil, Manson showed up at Gary's home with a machete, walked in the door said nothing and just slashed Gary across the face with a machete. And bluesoleil would say that Manson would tell him like that he had done this to show bluesoleil How to Be a man. Oh my god. Manson denies this. Of course, of course. So after Manson left over the next 24 hours out kins Brunner and bluesoleil stayed with Gary in his apartment and they like, tended his wounds. And Gary was like pleading with them to let him live. And he was like, you know, if you just leave, I promise I will not tell anyone about this. But then bluesoleil got on the phone with Manson again, and according to bluesoleil was told to kill Gary, so he stabbed him twice in the chest while the other members of the family held a pillow over his face to kill him. Oh my god. Once he was dead, they used his blood to write political piggy on the wall in blood along with a cat's paw, thinking that this would frame the Black Panthers for his murder. On July 31, Gary's body was discovered by police. And one of the I think saddest things is that they, one of the articles mentioned that like in his hands, he was holding his prayer beads that he had been holding when he was killed. In the documentary by the way, another reason I am not a fan is they show a lot of photos of this scene and future scenes and they give absolutely no warning that it is coming and it is horrific. On August 6, Bobby was arrested because he had gotten Gary's cars. And he was found like on the side of the road broken down in one of Gary's cars and he was asleep and arrested for Bobby's murder or for Gary's murder. So, Bobby bluesoleil is murder or arrest for murder made Manson really fearful that bluesoleil and others would spill the beans about the staging of the murder and the framing of the Black Panthers. So he developed a plan to both ensure that more people were kind of like tied up with wanting to keep this all a secret, and also to create like a copycat murderer. While bluesoleil was in custody to kind of like exonerate bluesoleil. Does that make sense?
Matt Molinaro:Yeah, they want it to show like, oh, yeah, you have him. And things are still happening. So he's innocent.
Enn Burke:Exactly. Yes. And to get more members of the family involved in like murder and crime so that they would be less likely to rat each other out, right. So on August 8 1969, Manton, Manson told the family quote, now is the time for Helter Skelter. So essentially, Manson decided that it was time for them to ignite the race war, and so that they as the family were going to commit murders, that according to family member, Leslie van Hooten, she said, quote, doing a murder that had no sense behind it, because the more fearful people get, the more frantic people get, the faster it will happen. It meaning the race war, right, according to Tex Watson, he says that Manson on August 8, gave him direct orders to take a gun and a knife and to kill some people and to write things on the walls in their blood to again like frame the Black Panthers. So Manson then told members of family you do whatever Tex Watson tells you to do. So Texas was kind of like in the lead, and took Susan Atkins, Patricia Van Winkle and Linda Kasabian, and they got in a car and they drove to 10050 clo drive. Upon their arrival texts, climbed the telephone pole and cut the phone lines to the home. This was the former home of record producer Terry Melcher, with whom Manson had tried and failed to get a recording deal. Right. And Melchers girlfriends who lived with him at the house at the time was Candice Bergen from Murphy Brown and no other things. But they knew of that house because Tex Watson had apparently attended a party there. But Melchor had actually moved and was no longer the resident of the house. And this home was now the home of Sharon Tate and Roman Polanski. Right. Coincidentally, Roman Polanski was not home that night. And I won't say anything more about him because he could be his own true crime episode series. But in the home was his wife, Sharon Tate, his associates che CBRE her associates JC bring Abigail Folger, who was the heiress of the Folger coffee Empire, and a man and her boyfriend, a man named I'm gonna probably get the first name kind of wrong. Wojciech Frank kowski for cos Frey, kowski. And a man named Steven parent, who was an associate of the home's caretaker, William Garretson, who lived in the guest house on the property. So Steven parent had apparently been visiting Garretson in the guest home of the property, and he was trying to sell him like a radio and they hung out for a while and like had a beer and then Stephen went to leave. And he got into his father's car that he had borrowed and was driving out of the driveway to the electronic gate and like rolled down his window to like push the button to open the electronic gate. And when he rolled down the window, he heard somebody shout halt. And it was Tex Watson who had the had a 22 revolver, the same one that had been used to shoot crow pointed at Steven parent and Steve was like pleading for his life, while Tex slashed hit him with a knife before shooting him four times in rapid succession. Tex Watson, Susan Atkins and Linda and Patricia crane Winkle then went up to the main house, while Linda Kasabian stayed as a lookout at the bottom of the driveway when they walked in the front door. Apparently white check for a kowski was like startled, awake and was like who are you? And Tex Watson said, quote, I'm the devil, and I'm here to do the devil's business. The three of them, then proceeded to murder Frey. kowski Sebring, Folger and Tate and Tate was also eight and a half months pregnant at this time, so she was only a couple of weeks from giving birth and the baby would also die. As a result of these murders, So, after killing them out kins then used some of Sharon Tate's blood to write pig on the front door of the house. And, again, they give you absolutely no warning that they show you the bodies of the murder victims in this documentary. hate that. I really am not happy about that because they're in my memory forever. So the bodies of all four victims were discovered the next morning by the Polanski's housekeeper Winifred Chapman, and when the police arrived, they discovered that Tate had been stabbed 16 Times had a rope tied around her neck. That was that the other end of it was tied around JC brings neck and was like thrown over the like beam in the ceiling. It doesn't look like they were like hung from it, but for some reason, they tied them together with a rope. I don't know. Folger and Frank kowski were found on the front lawn because they had tried to run away after being stabbed. But they had been stabbed a total of 28 times or she had been stabbed a total of 28 times for a kowski was stabbed 51 times and shocked twice. Oh my god. One of the initial investigators said I'd worked homicide for five years and seeing a lot of violence. This was the worst. Wow, crane Winkle, who's just as a peach would later say that she felt nothing while attacking Folger. She said, I mean, what is there to describe? It was just there and it was right. Atkins would say that as she was stabbing Sharon Tate, I felt no hate. I felt no malice. It was coming from love. Words kept coming out of her mouth begging and pleading and I got sick of listening to her. So I stabbed her the next day back at Spahn Ranch, according to a voice recording from Lesley van Hooten Patricia Patricia Crenn. Winkle told van Hooten about killing Tate and the other for the night before. And Van Hooten says to think that she was so strong in her belief, you know, being able to go kill I wanted to to because it has to be done just in order for the whole thing to be completed for the whole world's karma to be completed. So van Hooten heard the story of them killing people and was like, I want to do that disgusting. So that night, Manson took Tex Watson Steve Grogan, Linda Kasabian, Liz Leslie van Hooten Patricia cran Winkle and Susan Atkins to a house in Los Angeles called at 3311. Waverly drive, the house that they pulled up to was the former residents of Herald true, who was a one time associate of the family. But rather than go to his house, they just went to the house next door, which was the home of Leno and Rosemary LaBianca. So Benson ordered everybody out of the car, told everyone obey Tex, Tex Watson and then told Tex to make sure everybody did something because again, he wanted everybody implicated so that they would protect each other and also told tax make it as gruesome as you can. So the family found an unlocked door at the rear of the house and found Leno in the living room and rosemary in the bedroom. And they initially like subdued them by telling them like we're not going to hurt you. We're just here to rob you. And apparently Manson was in the house and assisted in like tying up the LaBianca cars, and was like weren't, you know, again, we're not going to kill you. We're not going to hurt you. We're just going to rob you. And then once he tied them up, he apparently told Crenn Winkle and Van Hooten to kill them. And so Watson began stabbing Leno in the neck with a bayonet walk Crenn Winkle carved the word wore into his stomach with a like a barbecue fork. And then van Hooten held Rosemary down while Crenn Winkle stabbed her in the neck. And in the end, Rosemary was stabbed 41 times and using blood from both of the LaBianca as they wrote death to pigs on the wall. One of them wrote helter skelter on the refrigerator, which they misspelled and also the word rise like you know, rise up and blah, blah, blah racewear Bullshit. After they did all of that they then took a shower in the lobby and because home, helped themselves to some food, petted the LaBianca dogs and then left, which that I don't know why that is so chilling to me like that. Because it's like a we feel affection toward this living creature, but we're fine killing these other things. I don't know. Disgusting. Worse. Possibly. Worst of all, is that the Lobby because bodies were discovered the next day by their children. Leno was found with a pillowcase on his head and Roper around his neck, his hands tied behind his back. Rosemary was found on the bedroom floor with her dress, like pulled up over her head. And then kind of going back to the night after they had committed these murders. They the Manson family was back in the car and Manson then handed Linda Kasabian, Rosemary's wallet and told her to drop it off in a predominantly black neighborhood so that again, it was framing black people for these murders. He then drove with Grogan, Kasabian, and Atkins to the apartment home of an actor named Saladin and Adair, and left Grogan, Kasabian, and Atkins there and told them to kill him the dare and according to Kasabian are sorry and according to Kasabian, he wanted them to kill him the dare and so the Grogan and Atkinson Kasabian started like walking up to his apartment, but it sounds like Kasabian had second thoughts or wasn't cool with this whole thing at this point. And so she went and like knocked on a neighbor's door to like, purposefully wake somebody up to kind of prevent the murders from taking place.
Matt Molinaro:What a hero.
Enn Burke:Right break. Yeah, but before they left, Atkins took a shit in the stairwell just as like a fuck you I guess. Fuck you. So on August 12, the police so all of this has happened and if you look watch the documentary or or see any videos or movies about this, the police are like they have no clues of like who these people are that are killing these people. Because it is literally random. Right? You know, they they managed to like get a couple of fingerprints and things like that, but they weren't turning up anything. So on August 12th, in like a pure coincidence, the police raided Spahn Ranch, again, arrest arresting Manson and 25 other members of the family completely unrelated to the murders because again, they thought the family was running an auto theft ring right while in custody. Susan Atkins had an outstanding warrant. And so she was transferred to an la prison while the rest of the family was kind of in holding I somewhere near Spahn Ranch, I guess. So soon Susan Atkins ends up kind of being the person who points the points the finger at the family about having committed all these murders when she apparently was bragging in prison to a cellmate about the murders of the Tate house and the LaBianca house. So she was just like bragging to a cellmate about having committed these murders. And the cellmate was like, hey, guard, like this person killed a bunch of people and they haven't been caught for it. Right. So thankfully, most of them were in custody at that point, and the LAPD issued arrest warrants for Tex Watson Patricia crane Winkle and Linda Kasabian. So now we get to kind of the trial and the trial. Again, it was I had to leave a bunch of stuff out, I'm already like, overtime here. Sorry about that. Oh,
Matt Molinaro:it's gonna be a big one. So it doesn't matter if it's a long episode.
Enn Burke:Okay. So for reasons that I won't get into van Hooten Crenn Winkle and Atkins, were Thai were tried along with Manson. So the four of them were like, tried together. The other folks would end up being tried separately for some reason, okay. And the kind of like Central debate of the trial was really whether a jury could be convinced that Manson was responsible for some of these murders when he didn't directly kill anyone, right? He had just told people you know, do it whatever. Although Manson would say he never told anybody directly to do anything course simultaneously. Susan Atkins lawyer claimed that she was like hypnotized and brainwashed by Manson. So like she couldn't be held responsible for having committed these murders. A lot of people blamed drugs for this Atkins own father though, which again, I love people with integrity. You know, Atkins was claiming like, Oh, I was brainwashed. You know, I didn't I don't have any responsibility for this. And her father was like, absolutely fucking not like she was not hypnotized. Like she did this and he did like end up saying like, she smoked too much weed which smoking too much weed doesn't make you kill me now. No. But I just love that he was like, no good. So the trial sounds like it was a complete circus with like family members like crowded the courthouse hallways they like we're outside the courthouse steps every day. And they like harassed people. A journalist who had written like done apparently like, written a book very quickly. between the murders and the trial was approached by a member of the family squeeky from outside of, you know, that name outside of the courthouse, and she was upset that he had written this book about the Manson family and them having committed the murders. And so she said to him, quote, do you know what it's like to have a sharp knife slipped down your throat. And so then he called his wife and was like, get our child out of the house and do not return to our house until like further notice like, because the the Manson family was intimidating and threatening people and doing some other stuff in the meantime that I will get into. So Barbara Hoyt, who was a former family member, received daily death threats from other family members, trying to keep her from testifying or cooperating with the trial. And she was getting threats like literally every day, or she said multiple times a day in the documentary. And so it kind of like stopped the harassment. She agreed to kind of like cooperate with them and and this is gonna sound really weird, but she agreed to go to Hawaii with them. I don't know why, but it was reportedly to like stop them from threatening her. So she went to Hawaii with with with them. And while she was there, they drugged her hamburger with 10 tabs of acid to keep her from testifying. So they they actually tried to kill her with a overdose of LSD. I did like a little quick googling to see if it's possible to die from an LSD overdose and it's kind of fuzzy. But she did have to be taken to the hospital and she had to be given valium to like bring her down from this insane high that she was on because 10 tabs of acid is a fuck ton of acid. Yeah, sounds like and Barbara would describe the process of being this high and being given the valium to bring her down as literally having her mind ripped out, which sounds awful. So the four family members who drugged her were eventually charged with her attempted murder. She did recover though and was able to testify against Manson so they failed and also went to jail for attempted murder. As I said, it was a total circus like journalists were so frantic to get pictures of any of the Manson family members that like at one point in the documentary, they talked about how the courthouse was like so packed with people and they were like shoving and jostling to get pictures that they ended up like knocking a water fountain off the wall, and like flooding the entire courthouse hallway. So it was it was a total circus, including within the actual courtroom, Manson initially asked for and was granted the right to act as his own attorney. But his behavior was so erratic that that right was taken away. He arrived to his first day of testimony with an X carved into his forehead, saying that he had quote, X himself out from the establishments, world life, the three other family members would also do the same thing. So Atkins, crane Winkle and Van Hooten also carved x's into their head. And then like other members of the family who were outside would do the same thing. And he shaved his head, the women shaved their heads, it was all you know, a thing the family members tried to dissuade other witnesses from testifying. Mysteriously one witness was like hardcore injured when his van mysteriously caught fire with him inside of it, after he had been told by the family not to testify, Manson in the courtroom, leaped over the table at one point and tried to attack the judge, and was tackled by the bailiff while yelling the judges that the judges head should be cut off in the name of Christian justice. So which is so it's so creepy to watch him because he'll do things like that. But then like in little moments, like before the trial when journalists are able to talk to him, he's like, I'm just about love. Like I'm really just about love and happiness and blah, blah, blah. And then he'll say, Here, your head needs to be cut off, right? Yeah. So Linda Sabian. She ended up being the factor that really contributed to the successful convictions of these four family members. And she was given immunity in exchange for her testimony. And she had never committed any of the acts of murder. She was just the lookout every time and so they offered her immunity in exchange for testifying against the other Manson family members. The prosecution rested its case and three days later, the Defense announced that they were going to rest their case without having called any witnesses, which Atkins Crenn Winkle and Van Hooten started like yelling and screaming that they deserved their right to testify. And in chambers, they told the judge that they planned to testify that they had committed the murders and that Manson had not given them direct instructions as a way of protecting him, like making them get the conviction so that he wouldn't essentially and Van Hooten attorney who had told her not to take the stand. So he disappeared during the trial and his body was found later in Ventura County. He had clearly been murdered. And it's rumored but never proven that he was killed by the family in retaliation for not allowing van Hooten to testify. So she killed how the family had one of their defense lawyers killed essentially, allegedly, yeah. Sandra good. A member of the family said that he was murder was, quote, the first of the retaliation murders, which I'll come back to on March 29 1971. The jury returned with guilty verdicts for All four defendants and they were all given the death sentence. And following this trial, Tex Watson was arrested on seven counts of murder and one of conspiracy. He was also found guilty and sentenced to death. However, the following year 1972, California abolished the death penalty, so they were all given life in prison in November of 1972. The body of James LT Willett and his wife were discovered, and members of the family who had been living with the Willits while committing various crimes had killed him for fear that they would that he would reveal their crimes. So that's now like, one attempted murder and three murders during the court case. And then, in 1975, family member Lynette squeaky from was arrested for attempting to assassinate President Gerald Ford. She was like, arm's length away from him, and pointed a gun at his chest. But she had failed to load a bullet into the chamber when she like, pulled the trigger. And so she was subdued and apprehended before she could kill him. But she very easily could have actually killed the president. While this happened, yeah. So she also wants attempted to escape prison to get to Manson when he was in prison, because she had heard that he had testicular cancer, and was like, you know, obsessed with him. So I will just wrap this up by saying that Manson maintained his innocence until his death in 2017, from a heart attack due to complications from colon cancer. And he was 83 years old at the time of his death. And that is the story of Charles Manson.
Matt Molinaro:Has,
Enn Burke:I mean, is that not wild?
Matt Molinaro:I mean, what part of it is not wild?
Enn Burke:I mean, really, it's just absolutely mind boggling. And I did learn a lot about the case after doing this research. So
Matt Molinaro:yeah, at least I know more. I mean, I knew that there were a lot more killings that were attributed to him and his family, but I really mainly knew about the Tate and LaBianca ones.
Enn Burke:Yeah. And that's one of the things that they talk about in a lot of the articles is that because Sharon Tate was famous, like her murder, kind of like eclipses the story of the other folks murders like the LaBianca cars or Gary Hinman, or shorty che, which is not to say that it shouldn't get plenty of attention, but you know, it kind of the others don't necessarily get talked about nearly as much as she does. And it of course, also, she was eight and a half months pregnant at the time. So it's kind of that additional layer of, you know, horrible with her story.
Matt Molinaro:Yeah. Wow. Oh, great job. I mean, that must have taken a lot of research a lot of time to really get all that down.
Enn Burke:Yeah, thank you. It was a lot of work. And I hope that the pictures I saw fade from my memory. So
Matt Molinaro:I was gonna say I hate when documentaries or anything does that because some people really want to see that kind of thing. Yeah, I know, some people want to see it for the wrong reasons. Some people, you know, need that sort of context to understand the magnitude of things, whatever it might be. Most people I don't think wants to see that type of thing. I certainly don't know. I certainly don't I mean, I've seen some pretty graphic things without being warned before and I still think about them. You know, I hate that. Yeah. Yeah. So I'm sorry that that that happens to you because that is chilling upon chilling you know, and that's something you know, especially when you I remember you know, the don't fuck with cats.
Enn Burke:Yes story.
Matt Molinaro:I remember when I was younger before I knew the whole story, falling onto a part of the internet not even like the dark web, obviously or anything like that. I had the video of that guy being killed I saw a good portion of it, not knowing it was real, not believing it was real. Yeah. And then later find out that it was real, and I will never forget that I'll never forget,
Enn Burke:I still, I still have a really like crystal clear memory of back before I think Facebook started moderating video content. I was just scrolling through Facebook and there was a video of a clown. I want to say in China, like doing an act with an alligator, where the alligator like kept its mouth open and the clown was like patting its tongue to be like, Look audience I'm like fucking with this alligator and nothing's happening. And then the alligator clamps down on his arm and spins, which is one of the things they do to like rip limbs off of animals that they've attacked. And the the I already didn't like alligators, but they are very frightening to me now.
Matt Molinaro:Yeah, geez.
Enn Burke:Anyway, let's end on a more positive note. What did you think? How would you rate the episode with watchability?
Matt Molinaro:Honestly, I really enjoyed this episode. Yeah, wasn't that I found it very entertaining. I thought the acting was pretty, pretty good, honestly. Yeah, and I think even more so now that I know it was based on Charles Manson that that girl did a great job portraying the sort of vibe and brainwashing blind followship fellowship of a of a leader. And I think he did a great job as a cult leader, too. So he I give it an A minus.
Enn Burke:I think I'll give it a B plus for the same reasons. Yeah. And then how it dealt with the tarp and
Matt Molinaro:I think it's very different. It's you know, got the sort of brush broad brush strokes of a, you know, a cult leader and that kind of thing, but it's obviously much tamer. I don't know. See?
Enn Burke:I think I'll agree with you on that.
Matt Molinaro:Look at us. We've been agreeing a lot on our ratings. We have I know. So in sync,
Enn Burke:like the band,
Matt Molinaro:like the band, but not, but not. Hey, y'all. Do you like free stuff? This podcast isn't 100% free. So you should subscribe rate and review it so other people can find us?
Enn Burke:That's right. And you're probably really popular and have a lot of friends and I'm sure they would listen to our podcast. So tell them about it, please,
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Enn Burke:Yes. And don't forget to check out our website ripped headlines pod.com, where you will find the link to our Patreon, which has some great perks and you get the joy of supporting one of your favorite podcasts.
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Enn Burke:Yeah, and if you want you can buy us a coffee at buy me a coffee.com/nmap
Matt Molinaro:Thanks so much for listening to rip from the headlines where you get the facts and some fiction.
Enn Burke:We'll see you next week. And until then, stay out of the headlines. Bye bye
Unknown:bye