Infertility and Feeling Left Out of the Mom Club

Let’s talk about the mom club.

When you are struggling to get pregnant, it feels like people keep getting into the “mom club.” It’s annoying. All they do is talk about mom club stuff. It feels like every conversation is about what it’s like being a mom. It hurts to hear it. It’s overwhelming to be around.

You want to be in the mom club, but you are annoyed with the mom club. You want to be a mom, and you’re overwhelmed by the people who are moms.

The mom club brings up a lot of feelings. Let’s talk about those feelings!

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Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Welcome everyone to the infertility feelings podcast where we are in the middle of a disagreement.

SPEAKER_04 0:06

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 0:08

About the World Cup. I personally think that people care about the World Cup. Jesse, on the other hand.

SPEAKER_02 0:16

This is gonna make me look bad.

SPEAKER_01 0:19

So we already know which way the argument is going. I'm winning.

SPEAKER_02 0:24

I think that you care about the World Cup, and the average listener of our podcast is actually not the average. High number of people that listen to our podcast is women. And I don't think I'm not saying that they that there isn't out there that don't that don't care, that do care. I'm saying they are. I just don't think they care as much as you.

SPEAKER_01 0:50

I'm saying that they do. I think the World Cup is big enough. The World Cup is big enough to be cared for.

SPEAKER_02 0:57

I don't think the average woman who listens to our podcast cares that much about the World Cup. Is there people out there that didn't even know the World Cup was happening that are listening to this podcast? And you are a hype guy.

SPEAKER_01 1:12

Today is the start USA is playing in the World Cup literally today.

SPEAKER_02 1:18

What's amazing about you, Doug, is you are a hype guy. You're not, you like soccer, but you're not like the biggest soccer person in the world. You can make hype.

SPEAKER_01 1:26

Yeah, I'm more of a I'm more of a player, you know? Do you know where that's from? Anyone?

SPEAKER_02 1:30

No?

SPEAKER_01 1:31

More of a player, you know. The office.

SPEAKER_02 1:34

Oh.

unknown 1:35

Oh.

SPEAKER_01 1:36

Does uh maybe no one understands anything that I care about. That's possible.

SPEAKER_02 1:39

That that could be possible. No, you are a hype guy. You what's so funny is you are athletic in skateboarding and surfing and all this stuff. That's like that is something that you would that you like really care about and are really good at. Um, and but you can make the like the world cup is coming. And I know it is a big deal. I know it's the world, and we enjoy it, and we're gonna get margaritas and tacos after this. I understand.

SPEAKER_01 2:02

The world cup.

SPEAKER_02 2:04

The world, I understand it's the world. I just think that you also, especially, can make hype out of anything.

SPEAKER_01 2:13

But it's also very true that Americans of a season. Americans don't care that much about the World Cup.

SPEAKER_02 2:18

Your hype of the change of the season when it goes from winter to spring to summer to whatever, which is so funny because in Southern California, it like drops 10 degrees. Like you can make hype out of anything. So you love the hype.

SPEAKER_01 2:33

There's this trend online of uh British people, Scottish people, anyone, Italian people coming over to the United States for the World Cup, and it's their experience of America for the first time. So it's like someone, you know, goes and gets like a big gulp and they're like, oh my gosh, like I get the hype. So weird. Or there are people being like experiencing New York for the first time, Walmart.

SPEAKER_04 2:55

Target.

SPEAKER_01 2:55

Yeah, people like girls are like taking Instagrams of like, oh my gosh, we're going into a Target for the first time, which is so interesting. But I love it. I was watching one of them and they said that the amount of people that they encounter in America and they say, We're here for the World Cup, they don't even know what they're talking about.

SPEAKER_04 3:13

Right. Not even that's what I'm saying.

SPEAKER_01 3:15

Not even that they're like, oh, I didn't realize the World Cup had started. They're like, what's the World Cup? Not even a clue of the largest soccer tournament of all time.

SPEAKER_02 3:23

Yeah, the average, I would think American, especially women, would not be as aware. I could be a hundred percent.

SPEAKER_01 3:33

I actually feel like women are would be more clued into soccer. I know that sounds crazy. I do think it would, they would be. I think it's the the average American dude who like only watches football, football, or basketball.

SPEAKER_02 3:46

Maybe. And there is like the women's soccer team in USA is like getting so much play. Yes, no pun intended.

SPEAKER_01 3:54

So all that to be said, are do you care, listeners, that it's the World Cup, that the World Cup is starting right now? Do we care at all? I care. You know, one of the number one places one of the number one places that uh listen to this podcast is Australia. Yes, we're very big in America, also very much so listened to in Australia. And America is playing Australia in I think like next week or a couple weeks or something like that.

SPEAKER_02 4:19

That'll be big. It'll be big. Doug, you just love a hype. You love a hype. You are hype.

SPEAKER_01 4:27

I do like hype.

SPEAKER_02 4:29

You love like I want to say pop and circumstance. That's not it.

SPEAKER_01 4:34

You love like a I mean I'm I do like pause and circumstance too.

SPEAKER_02 4:38

Um no, it's hilarious. And I'm not I mean, I am excited. Like we're gonna get tacos and margaritas, but after this, but really I'm there for that, really. That's real. I mean, I am excited. I am excited.

SPEAKER_01 4:47

You are on the losing side of history here, that you are not a fan of the World Cup.

SPEAKER_02 4:51

I didn't say I wouldn't say I'm a fan. I would say I like it. I like it.

SPEAKER_01 4:55

Do you hear that? Do you hear that? Do you hear what's happening? The largest. Please stop. If our international listenership doesn't plummet after this, I will be surprised. I'm sorry. If you're like in Uruguay or something or Portugal, I'm so sorry, Jesse. We're gonna get we'll get her up to speed. She's gonna fall in love with soccer.

SPEAKER_02 5:18

She's a huge Olympics person. I love the Olympics.

SPEAKER_01 5:20

Jesse's gonna fall in love with soccer after this tournament.

SPEAKER_02 5:23

I like it. I wouldn't say that I am a fan, but I will cheer and be excited and whatever. But also, I probably could go get my nails down at the same time and not.

SPEAKER_01 5:33

Do you know why Americans call it soccer?

SPEAKER_02 5:36

And not football?

SPEAKER_01 5:37

Yeah. No, I was like, that sounded like I had the answer to that question, but I actually don't know. Do you know why? No, I don't know why either.

SPEAKER_02 5:44

I know. Football, it only touches the foot once at the beginning, right?

SPEAKER_01 5:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 5:50

In soccer, it's the whole time.

SPEAKER_01 5:52

Right.

SPEAKER_02 5:53

People must have Americans be like soccer, where did that come from? Where did that come from?

SPEAKER_01 5:57

Today we are talking about the mom club. The mom club. What do we mean by the mom club? Jesse, what do you mean by the mom club?

SPEAKER_02 6:06

If I was to define what the mom club is, and I say club on purpose, and I think this is why people say club. A club feels what was that say? Like um invite only.

unknown 6:21

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 6:22

That's what a club feels like to me.

SPEAKER_01 6:23

Yeah. Like you can't like an insider's club.

SPEAKER_02 6:27

Like an insider's thing. It feels like there's o you have to have something to get a part of the thing. Like a soccer club.

SPEAKER_01 6:37

How dare you? How dare you?

SPEAKER_02 6:40

Soccer club. You know, you have to be up, you have to have play soccer to be in it. So it's like it is something that it feels like there has to be invitation. You have to have something or be invited to something to be able to do it. Um, and then it's the mom club. So it's when you're struggling with infertility, it's the people that have kids that are moms. And yeah, it's and they feel like a club.

SPEAKER_01 7:11

Is that what you're saying? It feels like a club.

SPEAKER_02 7:12

Well, especially if you are in a friend group and you are the only one that doesn't have kids, and then all of your friends have kids, it does kind of feel like it's a club. Like, oh, they're in the mom club. They can now talk about poopy diapers and birthday parties and go to parks and do all these kid activities, and they're a part of this thing that I am not a part of. Yeah. And when you're struggling with infertility and you want a kid so bad, that is so painful, you know, because it's like it feels like it's invite only and you're trying, spending all this money, this blood, sweat, and tears, emotions, your spirituality, your, you know, zeal for life to get a child and you're trying to get it and you're trying to get it, and you're trying to get the ticket, and you're trying to get the ticket, and you can't get it. It feels like they are all in this club together. Even if they're not even meaning to. I could even see this happening with someone who, if they're in a friend group and they and the all the friends know that there's one friend struggling, there's just a thing where you get parents, mom club, dad club, whatever, mom, dads together, where they just talk about their kids a lot. They just talk about their kids. It's like this thing to connect on when you have kids, even if you don't have kids the same age.

SPEAKER_01 8:26

Right.

SPEAKER_02 8:26

Maybe you did have kids that same age, or maybe you had this or had that or whatever.

SPEAKER_01 8:30

Do you think it's like a oh, they get it? Like a like uh it becomes the thing that you talk about, like, oh, you get this topic, so let's talk about it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 8:37

So even someone, I mean, it's painful in all of it, but I could see when in a friend group how difficult that is, even if their friends don't know that they're trying to struggle with infertility, that is painful. But I also could see it, even if all the friends know that there's a friend struggling with infertility, to not, when you get together, to talk about your kids. And then to be like, oh, whoops, we just talked for an hour about our kids and our birth stories and how much Johnny pooped, and oh, I went to solid food at this time, and or whatever it is. And it's like, oh, there's this one person that hasn't spoken at all because they have nothing to give to the conversation. So it's just painful. It just feels like they have this ticket. They're in the movie theater, they paid the ticket, they're in the comfy seats, drinking the dry martinis. What's that called that movie theater? You can get whatever. Um, and you're outside and you're just like, I want to get in, I want to get in, I want to get in.

SPEAKER_01 9:31

Do you think the mom club?

SPEAKER_02 9:34

That was the oddest definition, by the way. You just asked me to define it, and you know, there was 500 tangents attached to that.

SPEAKER_01 9:40

I think you did great. I have a question because as you were explaining it, it sounds annoying. Is the m like if you're not in the mom club or if you're outside the mom club, are you annoyed with the mom club?

SPEAKER_02 9:52

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 9:54

What is it about it that's annoying?

SPEAKER_02 9:56

It feels like they have the easy connection.

SPEAKER_01 9:59

What do you mean?

SPEAKER_02 10:00

They they have the easy connection and they have this thing. And not only is easy connection, it's easy to connect and go places and just be around each other more. If they have two toddlers and you don't, they are going to the zoo and you're not. You know? So it's it is, it's it's it's frustrating. And I even asked a lot of people on our Instagram.

SPEAKER_00 10:23

Whoa, okay.

SPEAKER_02 10:24

Anyone can read this, God, this is like chicken scratch. But like on our Instagram, and they kind of said like what it feels like. Yeah, what does it feel like? The highlights are you feel left behind. You feel like they have something and you don't. I like this wording. I don't like this wording. This is really sad, but I like the way that this is worded is beyond isolating. So it's not just isolating. A lot of people put lonely. It's like not just isolating, it's beyond isolating. It just feels so painful. You feel invisible, the unfair, it feels very unfair, which is where that frustration can build. A lot of people said this, which I was kind of actually surprised at this answer. You feel like you haven't adulted yet. They've adulted and you haven't.

SPEAKER_01 11:07

Like the mom club is where the adults are. Yes. Like the adult table?

SPEAKER_02 11:11

Yes, yes, and you're still at the kids' table.

SPEAKER_01 11:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 11:14

Um, angry, unworthy of relationships. That's a sad one.

SPEAKER_00 11:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 11:20

Respected less. And this was my add-on. I added this on because this is what I felt. The biggest case of FOMO you can ever have. Just FOMO.

SPEAKER_00 11:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 11:32

Just they're having all the fun, and you're like, I'm not invited.

SPEAKER_01 11:36

Yeah. It's just really hard. Easy connection. I feel like that probably is interesting. What do you mean? They have an easy connection in that when people get together, that's just what they talk about. Or is it like, what do you mean by that? Easy connection?

SPEAKER_02 11:49

It's low-hanging fruit. When you're both moms, you can, it feels like you can just talk about your kids, which is so funny because I could go on a complete tangent about how I think that actually is like not good in some scenarios because I ask people all the time that are moms, like, how are you? And they answer about their kids. They don't actually answer about them.

SPEAKER_01 12:09

Right.

SPEAKER_02 12:09

And I've stopped a few people and I've go, You actually didn't answer about you. You answered about your kids. Like, so I think it's just like you asked them, How are you doing?

SPEAKER_01 12:16

And they're like, Well, okay, I'm doing okay. Johnny's in a sleep thing.

SPEAKER_02 12:20

And I'm not trying to attack this that like people shouldn't do this or like it's all horrible or all whatever. It's just it's very easy to connect when you have this thing in common. For guys, I feel like I see this all the time. You're a Lakers fan, so am I.

SPEAKER_00 12:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 12:34

Let's just talk about the Lakers. It's like a thing that is just easy to connect on. And then socially, it's socially and busyness and schedule, it's easy to connect. If you have a two-year-old and this person has a two-year-old, there you go. And you're on the same schedule.

SPEAKER_01 12:49

Yeah, I have literally seen two moms come together and start talking about playgrounds and playplaces and just like ways to solve that like four o'clock boredom in the afternoon. And now they're just they're connecting purely based off that. Yeah. And I've like watched it almost like from a science experiment, from like even just being in the room, being like, I don't know if they've even shared a single detail about who they are. They might not even know each other's names. Yeah. But they're really connecting. So I think, is that what you're saying? That like you have this tangible circumstance that you're connecting over that just immediately draws you together. And if you don't have that, you are you feel so outside that club.

SPEAKER_02 13:32

Have you ever been in one of our process groups or just in life? And people in a social environment realize they went to the same college.

SPEAKER_00 13:40

Yeah, totally.

SPEAKER_02 13:41

It's like they're like, ah, I will literally see in our groups too. Where it's like, because everyone doesn't know where everybody lives when we start our groups. Right. And someone will be like, I live here and I went to this college. And someone will like be like vibrating, like, wait, you went there too. It's like, it's just an easy, easy connection.

SPEAKER_00 13:58

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 13:59

Um, and I think that happens when you're a mom. Which I'm not trying to say that like moms should never talk about their kids. That's not what I'm saying. But also, I do think that it is a little bit, it's just easier. It's just easier to connect on that. I think that's it. And then it's so painful because then it as a person struggling with infertility, you're almost observing the connection, desperately wanting it, and looking at them like, oh, I want that so bad.

SPEAKER_01 14:25

And that's what I was gonna say is that when you're not in it, I think you do desperately want to be in it. Or you want to have the require, like the requirements to be in it. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. Like you want to have children, obviously. You want to get pregnant, you want to like be with them. However, you do think that they are kind of annoying at the same time. So it's a weird sort of it's sort of like I'm triggered by you, and you're just connecting over your kids, and that's all you guys talk about. And you're in this like club, but also I kind of secretly am dying to get into it. And I want to get pregnant and be with you guys and be annoyed about those same things too. I think that's why it's just so hard to figure out how your feelings are towards it. I know. That's why we're doing this podcast, is it's such a tricky one to place where you feel, you know. I think because it's it's simultaneously triggering, overwhelming, there's jealousy, there's annoyance. Right. And you avoid it and you feel isolated, but you also kind of want to be near it. Right. So I know difficult.

SPEAKER_02 15:26

I know. And then I've almost seen people, I've had, and I'm just speaking from like what I've actually seen of people in our groups, is you're struggling with the fertility, you're so angry at the mom club, so angry at the mom club, but really you just want to be in the mom club. Yeah. And then for some people that end up struggling with the fertility and do end up getting pregnant, now all they want to they want to be in it.

unknown 15:45

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 15:45

You know what I mean? So it's almost like this weird relationship that you have with it where it's like, I don't want, it's so rude, I don't want to be in it. But then when I am finally become a mom, it's like, oh, now I'm in. Now I'm in. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_01 16:00

Yeah. We posted something online the other day, I think you posted it, and I was reading through some of the comments. And I do want to admit that there are people who do this well. Like there are people and friend groups who some of them have children, some of them become moms, but they still definitely make room for other people's experiences and other people's grief. However, I would say the majority of the time that's not the case. I admit a lot of the times that's not the case. A lot of the times it feels like people were saying this. I had to like get new friends. Yes. You know, which is which is kind of crazy.

SPEAKER_02 16:32

One girl said that either my friends are married and having kids or they're all single and they want to party. Yeah. And she's like, I uh like I'm almost done with that party phase. Yeah. I don't want to necessarily do that anymore. But also, where would I go if I don't you know what I mean? Right. So yeah, it's it's hard. It's a it's a hard one. It's a hard one to figure out. What was the thing that we said last podcast? A conundrum.

SPEAKER_01 16:53

A conundrum.

SPEAKER_02 16:54

This feels a little bit like another like conundrum, like no easy solution.

SPEAKER_01 16:58

Right.

SPEAKER_02 16:58

And it is, it is really, really, really hard. It is really hard because also, which we just touched on, but I feel like we could talk about a lot. It's triggering. They have the thing that you want. They have the subject that you want to talk about. And that's really hard. That's really hard to be around.

SPEAKER_01 17:15

I think it's particularly triggering too because not a like you know that people get pregnant, right? When you're trying when you're trying to get pregnant, you look around, we wanna, we want this, we're ready to move.

SPEAKER_02 17:25

The infernal community is very aware that people get pregnant.

SPEAKER_01 17:28

You know that people get pregnant, and hypothetically, you're like, I want to get pregnant. Right. It's another thing to see that person that you grew up with forever get pregnant.

SPEAKER_02 17:37

Right, I know.

SPEAKER_01 17:37

And then hang out with the other people that you grew up with and do fun, cool stuff that parents do that you're dying to do. Yeah. That's another pain because hypothetically, you're like, yeah, right, people get, oh we know people get pregnant. But then you see like Jamie, I don't know, it's a fictitious person, or like Eric get pregnant, and then now they're doing the like baby announcement thing, and like they're at a coffee shop with their stroller, and you're like, oh, it just hits so much harder. Right. You know, because it's contextualized to you. I could be at a baby with at this coffee shop. I could have a baby and go to that thing.

SPEAKER_02 18:15

Or yeah, what if it's your two best friends?

SPEAKER_01 18:17

Yeah, like either they're going, I would be the third, I would be the third, and we would be going to the beach that all the babies like. Right. And I would be so it's like when it gets contextualized and the it feels like a mom club forms within your very friend group. Right. I think that's when it becomes this deeply triggering sort of developmental trigger.

SPEAKER_02 18:37

And they're making memories. They're making memories.

SPEAKER_00 18:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 18:42

You just probably made memories with them all through college, all through young marriage, all through high school, all through this. And now they're off like making memories without you. Like that is that is extremely painful. That is extremely painful. And then they're all in happy, maybe bliss babyland to quote Frank from Father the Bride. Like they're let's see.

SPEAKER_01 19:05

I think you picked up an accent halfway through that sentence.

SPEAKER_02 19:08

No, it's Frank. In the Father Bride, too. When he's like, Welcome to Babylon, it's fine. Um uh but like I but then you also don't want to be the downer. It's like they are all like living in this bliss of you know, maybe new babies or having children or whatever, and then it's just like you where it's like still sad, yes, still over here having a hard time. That's really hard to connect to. That's really hard to connect with.

SPEAKER_01 19:33

I think of the movie uh Pitch Perfect. You know the movie Pitch Perfect?

SPEAKER_02 19:38

Are you kidding me?

SPEAKER_01 19:39

Who's the guy who's arguably probably the best the best probably musician?

SPEAKER_02 19:43

That movie I'm a fan of. Maybe not the World Cup, but that.

SPEAKER_01 19:47

Who's the guy who's arguably like probably the best singer of all of them? Ben Platt, right? Ben, and he doesn't he wants so bad to be in the troubles. The troublemakers. That's how they're called the troublemakers. Yeah. And then the troubles. Here comes trouble.

SPEAKER_02 20:02

So it's I think it's the troublemakers. I think it's the troublemakers. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Forgive me.

SPEAKER_01 20:08

That's a great name for an a cappella group for troublemakers.

SPEAKER_02 20:10

Right.

SPEAKER_01 20:10

But he wants to be in so bad, and then they all do those tryouts and no one selects them. Yes. And then they have the party, and then he can hear them singing.

SPEAKER_03 20:19

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 20:20

And then he's in his dorm room.

unknown 20:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:22

Just like slowly singing the city.

SPEAKER_03 20:24

Gotta keep your head up. Oh.

SPEAKER_02 20:28

That is a perfect picture of what it feels like.

SPEAKER_01 20:30

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 20:31

If anyone is not struggling with infertility and just wondering what this is, just Google that scene. The pool party in the whatever at or not pool party. I don't know. The the a cappella party party at the beginning of that movie when that one when he doesn't get picked. Yeah. It's like that's it. It's like you're sitting there with, I think he has like, I think he's a magician. Yeah. And he's just like crying.

SPEAKER_01 20:54

In case you think I'm weird, don't worry. I'm totally into close-up magic.

SPEAKER_02 20:57

Yes, yes, yes. Um, but like that's it. That's it. It's like everyone is doing something and everyone is having fun, and you're in your dorm room crying with magician's set.

SPEAKER_01 21:08

That's that I don't think there's a better picture. Yeah, there's not a better picture. You're just playing with your magic set, listening to everyone do the thing. Like they all got in, and you're like, I guess I'll just be out here desperately wanting to be in. That's just so painful.

SPEAKER_02 21:23

So if you're wondering why it's so hard to stay connected when you're struggling with infertility, this is it. This is it.

SPEAKER_01 21:33

It has a very real-world application too. Right. I think when we talk to people, it's very tangible. Yeah. And all of it's very everything that we talk about feels very tangible. But I would say often.

SPEAKER_02 21:45

I don't know, the feeling of unworthy that feels like, what is that? Yes. You know what I mean? It's like it feels like big and whatever. It's like, this is like, this is it. This is why it's so hard. It's like, did I completely cut you off?

SPEAKER_01 21:56

No, no. I was just I was just saying ex like exact. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 22:00

Your friends are moving on. It feels like without you, they're making all these memories and connections, and you want to hang out with them so desperately, but you feel like you're a Debbie Downer and you have nothing fun to offer, and you want to be invited to the birthday party, and you also don't want to be invited to the birthday party, and then you feel like a jerk because you're like hating on the kid or hating on the pregnancy or hating on them, and you feel like a jerk and you feel like a bad friend. And then, but also it's completely triggering for some people to be around other kids and other pregnant people and all that. So it's just this is it. This is why this is so hard. It is that big, huge conundrum. I even see it in the infertility community. Someone gets pregnant, super hard to connect, super hard to know where to go. I just had someone in my group that struggles with secondary infertility, and she was like, this feels more like my space, which is so weird because I have a living child, but this infertility community is where I feel seen. I don't feel seen over here. So it's just like this is it. This is why it's so complicated, is because it's just hard, hard to know what to do, hard to navigate.

SPEAKER_01 23:06

There's a lot of things we talk about on the podcast that are very much so, like we said, feeling unseen or feeling you know, greed, grief, and trauma and all this kind of stuff. And then there's the very real reality. Say you grew up with friends named Kayla and Amanda, and Kayla and Amanda and I went to college together. Kayla and Amanda and I, we all dated at the same time. And we went to all these games together. It was fun, and we did this, and then we were all bridesmaids in each other's weddings. And Kayla and Amanda and I, we all got married around the same time. And then now Kayla and Amanda are pregnant and they're going to the baby beach this Saturday. And if I had a baby, I would be going with them. Like it's just very real. It's just very the the pain of that is very tangible. Like you feel that. And I hate that.

SPEAKER_02 23:54

And especially with things like social media. Maybe they didn't invite you. And there could be a hundred different reasons that you weren't invited. They didn't think you wanted to come because you don't have kids, but not even trying to be mean. Um, you've told them you don't want to come, they don't know you're struggling, whatever, and then you see something like that, like you see them all at Baby Beach, or you see them all at like the zoo, or whatever.

SPEAKER_01 24:20

And that is just like Or you follow, or you're kind of closely friends with another person named Britney. Right. And you follow Britney on social media, and Kayla and Amana didn't post about it. But Britney said, guess who I ran into at the baby beach? And then they're all there sitting and talking while their kids play, and you're just like, cool, daggers to my heart. It makes me like daggers to my heart.

SPEAKER_02 24:42

And it literally is like, I feel like I'm having like a visceral reaction. I'm like, uh, like it's it's so painful. That is so painful, and it's so hard to not have that strain your relationship. How do you not let that strain your relationship? And how do you not feel like I feel completely left out, but also I don't want to go either. Like, cause it would be such a massive triggering place. Maybe you or maybe you don't want to go either. Like it's just this weird thing. It's hard. It's so hard.

SPEAKER_01 25:11

You just gotta keep your head up.

SPEAKER_02 25:13

Oh and he's just like with his like thing, the thing that you shove in your sleeve, the like, whatever. You gotta keep your head up. Oh you can let your head out. My voice is like shot.

SPEAKER_01 25:28

I have a thought that that I've been thinking about when it came when it comes to this topic. Do you want to do that? Let me try that sentence again. I have a thought when it comes to this topic. When I knew we were gonna do the mom club, I got interested in the concept of identity. And I was looking at research when it comes to identity and specifically with infertility. I think we covered that in the research that that we did with Chapman University. Dr. Brendan Peterson did a great job of pulling out some of that concept of searching for meaning in life and all that kind of stuff. Um, and I'll post some of this research that we found. But I think that what's happening is developmental. I think behind the scenes of that story that we're sharing of finding out your friends went to the beach and you weren't there is a developmental feeling of feeling left behind or feeling like you didn't develop or something like that, you know?

SPEAKER_02 26:24

Um, I think Well, Brandon calls it a developmental disruption today, totally steal your life.

SPEAKER_01 26:29

No, no, no, no. I think oftentimes becoming a parent infertility is developmental disruption. Right. Well, I think oftentimes becoming a parent becomes an identity level event. You give birth to a child, it's like now part of your identity.

SPEAKER_02 26:42

Like who you are you? I am Rachel that has three kids or something.

SPEAKER_01 26:45

Yes, or I am Rachel that has one kid. I mean I am Rachel that got pregnant, and now we have um Olivia in our life. Right and Olivia's this, and she changed my life forever. And right, you know, and it's like now this is part of your identity, and it becomes like an identity level event event. I think then it that's why you were saying sometimes when moms or dads or anyone get they get together, they're sort of wearing their new identity. They're like trying it out. It's like a brand new suit they put on, you know.

SPEAKER_02 27:15

I think that's a really good caveat. Mom club and dad club. This could be both and continue.

SPEAKER_01 27:20

I've seen it in dads. You felt it in dads. Oh my gosh, yes. All they talk about is their kids. You know, like and it's sort of giving birth, the story. It's like there's really yeah, dads at sometimes, if it's a bunch of men, sometimes can at times, not in every case, struggle to know what to talk about.

SPEAKER_02 27:37

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 27:38

So they can seen that happen. They can talk about sports, they can talk about work, um, kids. It's sort of like any is there anything that we can talk about?

SPEAKER_04 27:46

Right, right.

SPEAKER_01 27:47

Um, we're at this thing together. What can we talk about? So, yes, of course it gets brought up. Right. But I I I really think that that it there is like this new set of clothes that you just got, and you're trying them out. You're like walking around in them and trying to figure out this is my new identity. And that almost becomes something that feels good, I think. I think there's research to back that up. That it feels good to wear your new identity. It's like the first time you got onto a sports team and you wear your jersey to school in high school. Right. You're just like, This is me. I'm uh I finally made fresh JV cross country.

SPEAKER_02 28:23

Right, right, right. I was gonna say, I don't know what that feels like because I didn't really play sports, but great. That sounds awesome.

SPEAKER_01 28:28

No, I finally made it. I finally made it onto on JV. JV cross country. JV volleyball as a senior.

SPEAKER_02 28:35

Right.

SPEAKER_01 28:35

But I think you you wear it. You're like where you're trying it out.

SPEAKER_02 28:39

It's funny. I wasn't thinking that. I was thinking like Joseph and the Teppy Country.

SPEAKER_01 28:43

What? Like the play is my like or this Bible story.

SPEAKER_02 28:47

Fundamental Bible story. Is my fundamental 90s upbringing showing through? That's literally what I was picturing. I was like, yes, Joseph and the Tiny Dream Coat. Yes, I love it.

SPEAKER_01 28:55

I thought you went play. I thought the play first, but then you were saying no, the actual biblical story.

SPEAKER_02 29:01

Raised nineties fundamental. I literally, when you were like wearing it, like try it out. I'm like, yeah, Joseph and the tiny other dream coat. Just continue.

SPEAKER_01 29:11

I mean, sure. Joseph in his dream coat is whatever you, whatever.

SPEAKER_02 29:14

I just think there's I was raised Christian.

SPEAKER_01 29:16

Um you get this new identity, and then you wear it and you and you try it out. The research that I'm talking about is that given enough time, infertility can become an identity level disruption. Then it almost becomes that's why. Like you see people going through this identity change of becoming a parent. You're almost going through an identity change of experiencing you know years of infertility, maybe even childlessness, not by choice after infertility. Or for us, it was like childlessness followed up by and the opportunity to do adoption. So it's just, I think that becomes an identity level issue. So you have two people who are in a way trying to figure out their identity at the exact same time, and you've lost the previous identity markers of the past.

SPEAKER_02 30:05

Does that make sense? I weaved in and out of that. Can you explain? I was trying to think of something of an example of action.

SPEAKER_01 30:15

You were thinking about Joseph and his technical dream.

SPEAKER_02 30:17

No, I was done with Joseph. I was done with Joseph. No, I was thinking about my point. What? Say it again.

SPEAKER_01 30:26

I've said it's something that I think Say it's simpler. I think I've said it on the podcast a lot in the past, but it's basically there was a whole bunch of crap we used to connect on. Yes. And it became not only just fun things that we connected on, they were part of our identity. Right. It was so that's a very important part. It's just not just like, oh, you like ice cream, I like ice cream. It was we are young people. I mean, that's like an identity level marker.

SPEAKER_02 30:51

But even younger. I mean, we were on the same glitter sparkle dolphin softball team.

SPEAKER_01 30:55

I still, though, think that that is circumstantial. You know what I mean? I'm thinking, I'm thinking of things that actually became identity markers. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 31:03

You're saying that the glitter sparkle softball team is not an identity. How dare you?

SPEAKER_01 31:08

Like we're in college, like we're college.

SPEAKER_02 31:09

That was all the title waves, Doug. That was my identity, truly.

SPEAKER_01 31:13

You were you were.

SPEAKER_02 31:14

I was all the softball team title waves.

SPEAKER_01 31:16

I think there's lots of things that are circumstantial, which are we do connect on those things. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 31:20

Same college, same dorm, same glitter sparkle team.

SPEAKER_01 31:23

I think there are things though that become even more than that. Almost identity markers, you know, like like I think young. Like we're we are young, or we are married. Like we're married, we're young and we're married. That's such an idea, that's an identity. That becomes not just, oh, we live both like the Lakers. It's we're going through the same thing in life, and my identity feels attached to you. I think this for a lot of people is the first time that our identities have now don't match. Don't they don't match. Yeah. And it's with people that our identities have matched maybe for a long time, you know. We're in the same family. Maybe it's your brother or sister. We are young. We are young, married, you're a mom. I that's the identity that I thought that I was going to, and I've had an identity disruption. And now I'm also, I'm actually now kind of almost having infertility is now becoming like an identity level event. Does that make sense? Mm-hmm. So we had a lot of things that were massive that connected us, a bunch of stuff that connected us. So big that they were like our identities, and now we've drifted. Have you ever seen Fast 10?

SPEAKER_02 32:32

I can't say I have.

SPEAKER_01 32:34

You know the Fast and the Furious franchise?

SPEAKER_02 32:36

This is the Kobe funeral song.

SPEAKER_01 32:37

Yes, you know the Fast and the Furious franchise? Worst song.

SPEAKER_02 32:40

And I hate to attach this to sports again or guys movie.

SPEAKER_01 32:44

Paul Walker's death. That's so sad because that's what's that's what they're talking about in the movie. It's because he leaves. You know that that that moment in the movie? You never saw it.

SPEAKER_03 32:52

I never saw it. I saw the preview.

SPEAKER_01 32:53

There's no way. Actually, maybe not a lot of people saw this. But in the end, Vin Diesel, also, what's his name in the movies? Dom Toretto. And Paul Walker, who's I don't forget his name in the movies.

SPEAKER_02 33:09

Probably something amazingly like.

SPEAKER_01 33:11

They're driving, they're driving side by side.

SPEAKER_02 33:13

He has got a good looking name. Whatever it is, I'm gonna tell you right now, it's a good-looking name. Now we have now we must know.

SPEAKER_01 33:19

They're driving side by side, and as that song plays, it's been a long time without you, my friend. And then they they like take two different paths. There's probably a million different ways to better ways to explain this.

SPEAKER_02 33:34

Brian O'Connor.

SPEAKER_01 33:36

Brian O'Connor.

SPEAKER_02 33:37

Or Buster?

SPEAKER_01 33:39

There's no way that's his name. Brian O'Connor.

SPEAKER_02 33:41

Paul Walker's character name in Fast and the Furious franchise is Brian O'Connor.

SPEAKER_01 33:47

Okay. Okay. Doesn't show. It doesn't show.

SPEAKER_02 33:50

It doesn't show. It doesn't show.

SPEAKER_01 33:52

I'm right about Dom Toretto, though, right?

SPEAKER_02 33:54

Do you want me to look at that?

SPEAKER_01 33:55

No, I I know I'm right about that.

SPEAKER_02 33:58

What's Vin Diesel's name in the Fast and the Furious? Dom Toretto. Dominic Toretto.

SPEAKER_01 34:08

Dom Toretto.

SPEAKER_02 34:10

It's just like so.

SPEAKER_01 34:15

There has got to be a million better ways to explain what I'm saying. But all that's happened is it's like an aerial shot of two cars driving, and they just drive off. What are we talking about in two different paths? And it's like they're going in two different directions. Yes. I think that's the identity level worry that is happening in this scenario. That's why I think the mom clubs our pitch perfect example was better. That one's still good.

SPEAKER_02 34:39

That one's that one's good. That's I don't know why I'm laughing because it's so sad. But yeah, the whole thing.

SPEAKER_01 34:43

I think that the mom club is more than the mom club. That's what I'm trying to say. I think it the fear is that it's more than the mom club. It's more than that that just like, oh, my friends are in this club that I can't get into. It's, are we different people now? Do I like and our identity?

SPEAKER_02 34:58

Are you saying, are you saying though I'm actually genuinely asking, are you saying that's not true?

SPEAKER_01 35:02

I'm saying it's a worry that like are our identities shifting away from one another. And will we be able to recover? Will I ever like will my identity ever be that? Right. Will I ever identify as like be like, will my identity be that I'm a mom or a dad? And what will it mean if I don't if my identity can't be that I'm a dad? Like, or if I just keep going. So I think that's the existential dread that the person is feeling. It's more than just, oh, they got to have fun. It's a deep worry about the future of your identity. That's true. And that's what Dom Toretto teaches us.

SPEAKER_02 35:42

That's it. That's it. That's his lasting effect on the world. That's it. Um if someone's identity has changed, and your identity maybe has changed too, that's really hard. That's hard to connect on.

SPEAKER_01 35:58

Yeah, as hard to connect on as you just said that I I don't want it to sound like hopeless or scary or anything. Right, right, right.

SPEAKER_02 36:04

I don't think it's possible to stay connected.

SPEAKER_01 36:06

And this, I if I've had any like lasting message, I think, on this podcast or with the groups that we were on, it's that I say this a lot, and I hope that people will start to or get this.

SPEAKER_03 36:17

Actually hear you for the first time.

SPEAKER_01 36:19

I'm sure they have. Is that infertility gives you this opportunity to do stuff that you just did not ask to do? Yeah. It's like too soon. I didn't want to do this. I it's like going in and you're like, I would like a cheese sandwich, and they're like, Well, we only have meat chips. And you're like, Well, I don't want that right now. That's not what I wanted. I just want or like I want some chips and salsa. And they're like, Well, we only have steak. And you're like, I don't want steak, I want chips and salsa. Right. You know, you're like, I that's not what I was doing right now. That's the weirdest example. Again, I was gonna say, I always want steak. I'm off my game. Cheese sandwich? I'm slipping sandwich. I'm slipping. Um it's that you just you don't want to be doing this stuff that you're doing. Like, I don't want to have to figure out my relationships. I don't want to have to grow. I don't want to have to not that growing, not that we don't ever want to not grow, but it's just like, I don't want to do all of this. I just wanted to get pregnant. I don't want to have to figure out my relationships and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I think part of that is I don't want to have to make sense of my changing identity and unite friendships over changes in identity right now.

SPEAKER_02 37:21

And work really hard at it.

SPEAKER_01 37:22

That's like difficult mental health, psychological, right, like needs-based communication. That's like deep work. Deep work. Right, right. And you're just trying to get pregnant, and now you've been presented with this thing and this opportunity to do this deep challenge is a great word. This challenge to do deep work. Yeah. Like, I wanted to get pregnant, and now I'm challenged to do deep work.

SPEAKER_02 37:49

Right, right.

SPEAKER_01 37:50

Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 37:50

Can I can I just say something? I just wanted to give a caveat, if any first, is can I give an example of how I still feel this way? But it has to do with that we have children.

SPEAKER_01 38:03

So we have adopted children.

SPEAKER_02 38:04

We have adopted children. So I just wanted to say that if anyone wants to like pause and not listen to this part or something, I don't think it will be very triggering, but um, this is something that I still deal with as an adopted mom. And I feel like we've actually gotten a few new listeners from our video.

SPEAKER_00 38:21

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 38:22

So I just wanted to quickly even just say that like Doug and I struggled with infertility for you know 10 years, did one IUI, one IVF, they both didn't work. We only had one embryo at the end of our IVF cycle and implanted it and it didn't work. Um, and then we adopted and did a one private adoption and then went into being foster parents. And we um have teenage kids now um who are adopted, who were adopted. So if that is like too triggering to want to even continue to listen to, I completely understand. I just wanted to say that. But I but you said it was hopeless, and I just wanted to say a little bit about hope and how maybe I've worked on it even now.

SPEAKER_01 39:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 39:01

Is that good?

SPEAKER_01 39:03

No one can agree or disagree with me.

SPEAKER_02 39:05

So whatever, just I need the camera to go like this. Jesse, it's okay. Well, I feel like we try to be really sensitive, even with I think maybe some people in the virtuality community would be like, you have adopted children, it's a little bit different. But like, I just always want to be sensitive. And we don't talk about that part a lot and actually our lives of what we're dealing with now.

SPEAKER_00 39:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 39:24

Um, but I feel like this actually is prevalent to where prevalent what I experience now. I feel like being left out of the mom club and those feelings that are there is what I'm almost still working on to this day.

SPEAKER_01 39:40

So I wonder what you're gonna say because I want to say something about that too as well.

SPEAKER_02 39:44

If you want to pause us, should we give them a pausing stance? One, two, three, pause! So I feel like you said the thing about feeling hopeless. And and I really like that you how you said, like, I went in wanting a steak, but you gave me chips and salsa, which Doug, you've got to have a better example besides two things that are phenomenal. Hello. Um it's like you asked for a steak and they gave you bologna.

SPEAKER_00 40:11

There you go.

SPEAKER_02 40:12

That's that's a better example. Um, I really like that. I think if I if I'm trying to think about my own life and and how I am dealing with this, of like I still deal with this. I still I don't I still deal with the feelings of being around a bunch of moms and feel like I don't fit.

SPEAKER_01 40:31

How so?

SPEAKER_02 40:32

How so? I do not have a birth story of both of my children. Um, I do not know their first words, I do not know what when they took their first steps. I don't know. Um, I never breastfed them. I couldn't name them, um, all these things. So this is something that still comes up for me. Of still like I have to not one down myself or not one up myself when I'm in that kind of scenario.

SPEAKER_01 41:02

I thought you were gonna say that our kids are so much older.

SPEAKER_02 41:06

And our kids are so much older than a lot of people in our even lives that we have connections with um that are our that are our friend group. Um, they all have a lot of younger kids. They all just, you know, started having children later. Or whatever. I don't know if they have children later.

SPEAKER_01 41:23

We just when we ended up doing adoption, when we did adoption.

SPEAKER_02 41:26

I can hear my best friend listening to this and be like, you called me old. Not calling you old. I'm just saying, like, it just how it worked out. Yeah, we our kids are older than every single kid that we hang out with.

SPEAKER_01 41:38

Almost, almost. Yeah. We when we did an adoption in foster care, an 18-month-old came to live with us, and then an eight-year-old came to live with us. So we have kids who are like entering high school, right? All of our friends have kids who are in grade school. Right. So there's even someone said that on Instagram the other day of like we're in a different spot. Like our they're older and we're younger. Right. For our case, it's like oddly switched. Our kids are older, their kids are younger. So I think it didn't just go away. Like we adopted and and that disconnect from people being moms, the mom club, the dad club didn't go away, which is right hard to reconcile.

SPEAKER_02 42:18

I think I think that would be a good thing for you to talk about. And I think that still that does affect me too. And I feel like I am like still trying to connect in some way because it is hard, but that they're not hard that they're older, but they are older, and a lot of people that are in our lives all have younger kids. So it's like it feels like that, that uh I feel that. Um, but me, no, it I feel like it's more of how I identify myself as a mom and trying to connect with other moms. Um, because what's the story that everybody likes to tell of like when they take their first steps and when it's like I don't have any of those things, and so but I will say that the way that I've been able to really grow or heal in that area is making more peace with who I am. That's the most boring answer in the freaking world.

SPEAKER_01 43:15

But like making making true peace with your story.

SPEAKER_02 43:19

Making true peace with my story. And yes, when everyone goes around and starts sharing stories of birth stories or when their child took their first steps, of course, there's a little bit of part of me that pings and goes like I don't have any or ping, I get a ping, that like I don't have anything to offer to this. But the more that I have grieved, accepted my reality, and not only accepted my reality of like accepted my reality with peace. I think that's a very I think peace is the important word. And we talk about this at length in our process groups. We have a whole week where we just watch videos and just talk about this step. How do you do that? How, what, what do you do to make peace with it? But I think that's the only thing. So I think as hope, like it's funny. It's so hard. I feel like in a way that is hopeful, but then in one way it's like, but I don't want to do that. And it's like, neither did I. I didn't want to do that. I'd of course we have adopted children. I love my children. Like, of course. But I didn't want it to follow me. I thought that maybe just adopting and having kids, it would just go away. And I would be able to be like, ah, and it's still something. And and even if you don't adopt kids, but you have an infertility story, it already is kind of different. It already is something that's not the typical norm. It already is something that's not just, you know, oh wham bam, you got pregnant. It's like, no, we did 10 rounds of IVF and finally got our miracle child. It's like that is already different. So I think the hope is that the more that I think you can make peace with your reality, make friends with your reality, accept it through peace, not anger, not anger, the more you can. I think that that doesn't hurt as bad for me. I still get a ping that's not a good thing.

SPEAKER_01 45:16

Separation doesn't hurt as bad.

SPEAKER_02 45:18

No, the like stories. I'm just actually talking like tangibly, the actual stories. I mean, I know that you have hung out around a lot of women, but I don't think you realize how much women can talk about birth stories and breastfeeding and steps and this and that and this and that. Where it's like it's always so it's like even just tangibly. Like, how do I stay connected to people that don't have the same stories with me? Is the more that I can make peace with my journey and who I am and what my reality is, that has been helpful to bring to the relationship. Because now that is their journey and this is mine. And I've made peace. I'm not necessarily happy that me and you could never have kids. That doesn't mean that I'm like joyful about it, but I've made peace with it. I've made peace that this is the way that we have grown our family. It's almost like I've shook hands. I've shook hands with it, I've made peace, I've grieved, I've made peace that this is our reality, and that helps me in my relationships. It it it does.

SPEAKER_01 46:22

I think that's it. I think that's it. Like that's a there's no way to land this conversation. Not easy. There's no way to land this conversation and be like, that's what you do. I but I if there if there was one thing that if we were talking about this, this concept of like the mom club, making peace with your story is a huge part of how to survive it. How do you like survive all a bunch of your friends becoming a part of the dad club, the mom club, making peace with your story and making peace with your reality, making friends with your reality? Um that's very important. And very hard. Very, very hard.

SPEAKER_02 47:08

Very hard. Which there is a little bit of hope there. We literally, this is what we talk about, our process groups. The last week of our process groups, this is what we talk about. And we watch a video and do a workbook about it and all that stuff. It's it's literally the title is like, How do you stay mutual? How do you stay connected?

SPEAKER_01 47:22

And that's not just our idea, like that's uh research-backed, evidence-based. There's a lot of work that that's how you make sense of your changing identity. Right. If that's ever sounds interesting to you, right? That's a lot of what we're doing, like the conversations we're having. But I think it's just uh something for us to throw in into your well of life. A coin. I got the image of throwing a coin into a well, like throwing an idea into your brain.

SPEAKER_02 47:52

Were you wearing a technical color dream coat when you threw in the coin?

SPEAKER_01 47:55

Were you wearing- But just like tossing that idea of like it does when you do make when you do make friends with your reality and you really accept with at in peace what your story is, it does help. It helps you enter in.

SPEAKER_02 48:07

It's so hard. Like the only thing that cures loneliness is people. I don't want that to be the case. I want this sometimes. Or in my darker days or darker seasons of life or whatever. Like, and I'm not saying that I have a town on my phone that I absolutely love that's like Sims and I love it. It's like, but that I think is hard too. And it's like you it's like you almost have to have a choice of like looking at your friendships, identifying who your safe people are. If you don't have any safe people, we have a safe place for you in our process groups. But like it's like the only cure to loneliness is people. I don't think I've ever said that before.

SPEAKER_01 48:50

It's true.

SPEAKER_02 48:51

I know. I wish it wasn't though.

SPEAKER_01 48:54

You wish it was Instagram?

SPEAKER_02 48:56

I don't wish it was Instagram. It's just, I think I want it to be easier.

SPEAKER_00 49:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 49:01

I think I want it to be easier than that. And when you have something like infertility in the journey, in your journey, it's just so hard. It's so hard. But I think what happens is, is, and uh what everyone said on this thing was they are lonely. I think the infertility community is lonely.

SPEAKER_00 49:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 49:17

And it's so hard to think that the only cure for that is people. Like I wish it was something else. You know how it's like you can exercise many different ways. You can walk, you can run, you can swim, you can you can dance, you can do it. It's like there's so many options. It's like loneliness, there's only one option.

SPEAKER_00 49:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 49:34

And it's people. That's so hard, but it's so true. Because I think what's hard is is when we pull away, and I'm not saying it's not justified, because it is, it is justified. It's super painful to be connected to people that have kids. But you it's the thing that comes with it is loneliness. You know, is it absolutely can be lonely. Um, but the only cure to loneliness is people.

SPEAKER_01 50:00

I wish there was, I truly do wish that there was something that like like beyond anything, united people. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_02 50:10

Like something that like just like connected everyone.

SPEAKER_01 50:14

Something that like the whole world cared about, that like brought people together, like a like could be like a sport that like that, like maybe the nations came together and then like they competed on just this like one sport, kind of like the World Cup. You you've been waiting for literally starts in two hours.

SPEAKER_02 50:39

Were you thinking about that in the back of your mind the whole time of this podcast?

SPEAKER_01 50:45

It brings us together, people.

SPEAKER_02 50:47

Brings us together.

SPEAKER_01 50:48

It brings us together.

SPEAKER_02 50:50

Brings us together today. Do you know what that is?

SPEAKER_01 50:52

Of course. Thank you for listening to the Infertility of Feelings podcast. Today's episode is brought to you by Uniquely Knitted, a nonprofit for people who are struggling to get pregnant. If you want to learn more about our groups, support this show, or just get involved, go to uniquely knitted.org. Thank you for listening. Good night, and good luck. I think that's already some discussion.