Turning Points: An African Man’s Journey with Mental Health

In this episode, Angella sits down with Sabelo Dube, a Mastercard Foundation Scholars Program Alumni from Ashesi University, to have a raw and much-needed conversation about mental health from the perspective of an African man.

Sabelo shares his deeply personal journey with depression, which led him to leave university and return home to Zimbabwe before he was later clinically diagnosed. We talk about the challenges of navigating mental health in environments where stigma is high, the silence men are often conditioned to keep, and why bottling things up can be devastating.

Through his story, Sabelo highlights the power of therapy, the importance of daily self-check-ins, and why male friendships need to go beyond surface-level connections. His message is clear: men must talk, open up, and support each other if we’re going to break the stigma around mental health.

This is an honest, courageous, and eye-opening conversation that sheds light on what it means to take care of yourself as a man, especially in the African context.

Join the Baobab Platform today.

Transcript

Angella Nantambi (00:03):

Welcome to Turning Points podcast. My name is Angella Nantambi and I'm your host. I'm an alumni of the Mastercard Foundation Scholarship Program. And today we're going to be talking about something very important and critical in our society today, mental health, but more specifically mental health as it relates to men, because I think there's something there to be explored. And today we have a wonderful guest with us, Sabelo Dube. He's going to be taking us through his journey of mental health and how he's been able to navigate the whole world of taking care of himself mentally, emotionally, specifically as a man. I've known Sabelo for a long time. He's a fellow alumni from Ashesi University under the Mastercard Foundation Scholarship program. We met in Ashesi and we've continued to work together over the years. I must say, I've heard quite a bit about his journey and I can't wait for everyone joining us today to listen in and hear what he has to say. I'm sure it will be a great conversation. Welcome, Sabelo. Say hi to the listeners.

Sabelo Dube (01:14):

Oh, thank you so much, Angella. You are far too kind. Hi everyone. So yeah, I'm grateful to be here. I'm Sabelo. As Angella mentioned, I'm an alumni of the Mastercard Scholars Program at Ashesi, and then also an alumni residence and fellow for the Baobab Platform. So it's honestly a pleasure to be here today and to share some of my experiences around mental health and just to have a conversation.

Angella Nantambi (01:45):

Great. So we're just going to start a bit light and get to know you a bit more. I recently learned that you moved to Zimbabwe. Where were you? How long were you there? What took you there? Give us a brief about what your life has been recently.

Sabelo Dube (02:06):

Okay, great. So yeah, I recently moved to Zimbabwe. I've just been in Zimbabwe now for a little over a week. Before then, I was living in Kenya, where I've been living for the past two years. Before then I was living in South Africa. So a bit of context was to say initially I went to Kenya visiting. That was from South Africa. I was just visiting some friends and it was supposed to be a short holiday while working remotely from there. And then fell in love with Kenya and ended up deciding to extend my stay there for the long term. Which yeah, funny enough, it finally translated to about two years.

Angella Nantambi (02:49):

[inaudible 00:02:52].

Sabelo Dube (02:52):

Yeah, it was really, really long. At least when I went there, I didn't anticipate I would be there for that long. And so it's been quite a lovely two years there. And now I'm finally cleared to be back in Zimbabwe, my home country, my hometown Bulawayo, which I haven't stayed in for I think close to 10 years, at least. Yes, I've been visiting in and out, in and out. But then now finally with the time when I'm back full-time living here and falling in love with my hometown all over again, I guess.

Angella Nantambi (03:28):

Yeah, it must be nice to be back home. I can't remember the last ... Well, I was actually home a few months ago. And that feeling of being home, you never get used to it. Every single time you go back, you just fall in love all over again with the people, the food, the weather. Okay, not the weather, because I'm told it's winter in Zimbabwe. And I cannot even understand how that is possible considering where I am now. But it is winter for you guys, yeah?

Sabelo Dube (03:59):

Yeah, yeah. It's winter. So yeah, that's something which I'm still getting used to again. It also comes with its own culture shock to say, yes, definitely I'm still familiar with the culture and there are new things which maybe the city might have changed to and new customs and traditions and so on. So yeah, it's all part of the experience, I guess.

Angella Nantambi (04:20):

Yeah. Wow. Well, that's interesting and I'm glad you moved back. I hope you're going to have a great time and you not moving out anytime soon. Because I know once you start this nomad life, you never stop. You never stop. There's always somewhere you're going, something you're doing, places you have to be at. So I hope it's going to be a great time spending time with family.

Sabelo Dube (04:44):

Yeah, definitely, definitely. But then I would advise not to put your money on me not moving anytime soon. Don't, at least not yet. At least not yet.

Angella Nantambi (04:57):

I can agree. I can agree. I don't think I even want to bet on that because I know, something always pulls us away from our home countries, somehow magically. Well, so to kick us off with this conversation on mental health, I just wanted us to think about moments we've had in our lives where we felt lost. And more specifically for you Sabelo, I know we've talked at length previously about an experience you had that was really pivotal in your mental health journey. Could you please describe that moment and what it felt like for you during that time? And think back on what really helped you in finding your way again.

Sabelo Dube (05:42):

Okay, great. That's an interesting question. I would say my mental health journey as a whole started with me falling into depression. When the initial start, I couldn't even pinpoint depression because I think at that time it was still kind of mental health as a whole field was still kind of a new buzzword in a way. I still remember I was in my second year. Then at my university, we didn't have even a university psychologist, so it was still kind of a new field. It was later on in my second year of my studies that the university actually got a psychologist. I couldn't put a finger on it. Like you say, I didn't think I was depressed, at least. I was just going through my usual like say, "Well, this is just life."

(06:42):

But then the changes were there. Like you say, my sleep patterns were terrible. My concentration was all over the place. My thinking and memory in terms of even keeping up with my studies was a struggle. But then for me, I just took it as like, "Oh, it's just life happening." But then inside I was just lost in a way and just, yeah, my anxiety was shooting through the roof. So I said, gradually, say it was the small things, losing interest in the activities which I was initially so invested in. That included even my personal blogging at the time. That included even the extracurriculars I was involved in, say debate and so on and so forth. So it set off as a smaller things say like, oh, you just feel like maybe I don't want to do this, or I don't want to go for a debate practice session today, or I don't have time for this, or I'm showing up late for engagements and commitments.

(07:49):

And in the initial stages it was more or less like, oh, you're just thinking, "Yeah, this is just a normal cycle of life. Maybe I have too much on my plate." Which is funny because I was even adding more stuff onto my plate in that moment. So I took an extra course in one of my semesters as compared to the normal load, which was expected of me, I took on an extra course in one of the semesters. And it went on for years, to say I was in my second year then. It wasn't up until my fourth year when I was finally diagnosed with severe depression, with extreme anxiety.

(08:36):

And that was then when, yes, at that moment I'd even hit rock bottom. And that's when I came to that realization, say like, okay, after the psychiatrist diagnosed me with severe depression and with severe anxiety, that's when I fully embraced that diagnosis in a way, not necessarily fully embraced it, but then at least finally it made sense, connecting the back dots so as to say, "Oh, now I can finally put a name to what I'm going through and trace when I actually started feeling this way." And from that try and make sense of it in a way.

Angella Nantambi (09:26):

Yeah. Wow. It's interesting because at the time when you were probably navigating this, I was in school with you at the same time, and I remember ... I think you didn't graduate with your group.

Sabelo Dube (09:41):

Yes.

Angella Nantambi (09:41):

And I think like you said, it was not something that a lot of people talked about or we didn't have a full understanding of what depression was even about at the time. And this is like 2018, 2017, thereabout.

Sabelo Dube (09:57):

Mm-hmm.

Angella Nantambi (09:57):

And I remember us being told that, "Oh, some students have had to leave school because they could not do it anymore." And in my mind I'm like, "What the heck do you mean? What do you mean that somebody is stopping school because they are not feeling well?" And of course coming from a mindset of if you're not feeling well, it means you either have some condition that is chronic or you have the big diseases that we typically think about when somebody is not able to function properly, but it's usually not around mental health or mental wellness. And it took me a while to actually understand the struggle. And I had to experience it myself in a way to actually appreciate and have some kind of empathy for people who have navigated this way longer period.

(10:48):

And for me, it was during the pandemic. And I know the pandemic came with a lot, honestly, and it triggered so much in our lives. And for me, I had lots of anxiety during that time because I had things in place that I wanted to do. And because of the pandemic, it felt impossible. It felt like I was not going to do these things. And so in that moment, I actually started to understand what people talk about when they say they're going through something mentally and it's not all right, because I started having panic attacks. I'm like, "This is way harder than I thought. This is difficult."

(11:24):

So to hear you speak about this experience, it makes me really reflect on my own behaviors and probably perceptions that I had at the time when you were navigating this. So how would you say you were able to navigate this season of your life? Do you think you got some help? Did asking for help even help in that moment? Considering you were a man, I'm sure it also came with some kind of stigma that you probably felt, how can I be going through this considering that I'm a male person? Was that even a thing?

Sabelo Dube (12:01):

The funny thing was to say that, like I mentioned earlier, I didn't think I had any at least mental issue to deal with in that current moment. I think it was up until the point when I was like, "Oh, I can't complete my studies." It was in my final semester of my studies, like say fourth year, final semester. And I'm like, "I can't take it anymore and I just want to go home and just be on my own and just rest." And at that point, I didn't even have any plan or idea to say what would I actually do at the point which I was even dropping out for my university studies. It was just like to say, "I can't take it anymore." And I was fortunate enough to have the university psychology counseling department help me navigate it even in those initial stages of confusion, not knowing what you're going through.

Angella Nantambi (13:09):

Yeah.

Sabelo Dube (13:10):

And then finally getting me the assistance and getting that diagnosis. And even after getting the diagnosis for me, it was like, okay, now I know what I'm dealing with, but then I just want to rest. I was just tired. I wasn't sleeping properly, I wasn't eating properly, I just wasn't motivated to do anything and just wanted to rest. So I took time, came back home. When I came back home, I still remember initially my whole family, they never asked me anything. They were just like, okay, the university had communicated with them to say, "No, he is leaving because of the circumstances and so on." But then when I came home, we never had that conversation immediately. It was more or less, yeah, just be in your corner and then when you're ready to talk maybe you'll talk. And so we'll just be here waiting for you to listen.

(14:05):

But then even in that circumstance, I still remember having a conversation later on with my dad on that reflecting backwards when I was like, oh, he had no idea how to even help. Because it was also something which he himself, being from a different generation, they had to get up to speed with the same way in which even I myself wasn't aware of what I was going through. So it became kind of like a core joint forces of getting to learn about what actually depression is, what are some of the triggers around it.

(14:47):

And that was mainly through my own research and the therapy sessions which I was going through. Funny enough, I had also friends who had either gone through similar experiences in their own versions. They had some experience with depression or were going through that at the same time which I was. But at that point we weren't even talking much, at least amongst ourselves, because I felt like it was a more personal thing to go through. And so I went through that whole period. That was from I think 2018, mid-2018 around April till I think end of the year. I was just in that mode of just like, "Oh, I'm just resting." I have no idea what my next steps are or what the future looks like. I'm just going through the therapy and talking through my emotions, my experiences, my background and so on.

(15:48):

Which even more so as an African man, generally we're not taught to be expressive, especially in terms of our emotions or our feelings and experiences. There's that whole reinforced version of the strong, solid, composed kind of like aura which a guy needs to present out in the public. Even when you're going through stuff to say, typically ... Even I still remember even from high school say like, "Oh, a boy doesn't cry," or something like that. You're not expected to express those emotions at least outwardly. You just suppose to keep them within. Of which, for me personally, I think over time it builds kind of like that whole generational trauma which we have as men growing up. And then in some form we pass it on to our kids and so on. And it just keeps on getting passed on up until maybe someone takes up the initiative to actually deal with the issues head on and solve their own trauma and become a better person.

(17:05):

So it was through therapy that I found my way back to at least feeling like myself again. And with time I was able to get my life back together. After a while, go back and finish my studies and then start looking forward to the future once again. Because in that moment it was just like a day-to-day, say like, "Oh, I just want to live through the day. I don't even want to think about the future."

Angella Nantambi (17:35):

Wow, I can't imagine. But you bring up really good points around support systems around you. One, I hear your family, much as they didn't fully understand the extent to which you are navigating this mental issue, they were available and probably open to have the conversation whenever you felt ready to talk through those feelings that you were navigating. And I think that is such a big support system, especially coming from our families, that may not fully, fully understand that you're dropping out of school or taking a break because you're mentally not okay. And in a sense it's not physical because they can't see it, but they know or they have an idea that because you're coming from school and you traveled all the way back home, it must be that serious. I commend them for being that supportive in a way, though they didn't fully understand the extent of what you were going through.

(18:35):

And I hear the school had a big part to play in supporting you as well. And I must say, being a former student of Ashesi, I really, really commend them as well for the support systems they put in place to make sure students succeed. And this is not an ad for Ashesi at all. But just to appreciate all the things that are put in place to ensure students succeed. So I really, really appreciate them for that, because you had that space to yourself to think through what you were navigating, to kind of understand it yourself because you probably didn't at the time. And have the space you needed to heal and be mentally stable again to continue with your school when you are ready, that is wonderful to have in place.

(19:29):

And you bring up something else, something that I think women maybe probably have it easier. And I speak for maybe majority of the women, not everybody. But I know friendships are a great way to talk through some of these things. I have a group of friends that I have conversations with on a regular basis and I'm talking anything that is disturbing me, anything that I am thinking about of doing, any emotion that I feel, I find that I have the environment to have these conversations with my girls. And we can laugh and cry and express all these emotions at the same time. And when we do that, it feels like, okay, I'm not alone because somebody else is going through this. And much as maybe I haven't gone through what they're going through, I'm learning from them. And when it happens, I won't be as surprised and I won't feel like I'm alone or a stranger to this kind of feeling because I hear it from my friends.

(20:33):

But it sounds like the men, I don't know about you guys, but your relationships, I don't know if ... They're not as deep. You just come and say, "Hey bro, did you see the game tonight?" Very, very surface level. And it sounds like when you're navigating this, it was a difficult thing to engage with your friends because they also didn't understand it. But also maybe you didn't have the systems in place or the environment to talk about these things openly as men and say, "Hey, I'm navigating this. I don't know what it is, but it's not easy. Any word of advice you can give?" I don't know if that was even a thing.

Sabelo Dube (21:19):

The funny thing is to say that typically when it comes to support systems, you even get some instances where someone genuinely wants to help, but then you don't feel like you're comfortable enough to, let's say, maybe even open up to them. Say they're like, "Oh, I'm here if you need to talk about anything," but then you're like, "Probably no, this is not the person which I need in this moment." Or you are not that comfortable enough to open up to them. And I guess that plays out a lot in relationships in general, even more so especially friendships amongst guys. Like you say, you might have a friend maybe who you talk to about football, whatever, which your common interest is with, but then that will necessarily be the same friend which you go and talk to maybe if you want to discuss something about work or professional and so on. And so that's the part which I found kind of a bit hard to navigate to say, yes, we might be friends, but then maybe this is not what we have related on in the past.

(22:34):

And then combined with that, there's also the shame and the guilt which comes from feeling like, okay, I've failed myself and maybe I should have been able to figure this out, or what will people think about me to say I'm going through this and so on. So I guess that stigma, which in a way mental health might still have also plays out in your own subconscious mind as you're thinking about people maybe I'm comfortable opening up to. And that's what affects who you turn to and who you relate with.

(23:12):

But then inasmuch as, yes, with me and my friends, we didn't talk about what I was going through in detail during that time, I've found that having those friendships and going through that moment with them, even though they didn't understand what it was, afterwards we came out with a much more stronger friendship. And now we're able to have those conversations and discuss the difficult topics and the stuff which you are going through without much judgment, because at least it's more or less like that shame I've gone through it and it's like, "Okay, now I feel no shame at all opening up or talking to people about this."

Angella Nantambi (23:57):

I love that. I love that your friendships have just grown from this, honestly. And hearing from you, and hopefully for the listeners who are here listening in on this episode, I hope that you can learn a few things here and there around having a strong support system. Sabelo mentioned therapy, and I know our culture is anti-therapy. Therapy is for the ... What are they called? The people who are sick mentally? No, there's a name for them that I'm forgetting. Yeah, but when you think about it, when you think about therapy, typically back home it's for the mentally disturbed, not in the sense that we're talking about right now, but in the sense that you're crazy, you can't even take care of yourself. That's what we think about when we say therapy back home. But it sounds like it really, really helped you figure out what was going on.

(25:00):

And I'm happy to hear that your friendships have grown from this. You earlier mentioned something that I probably want us to talk about, the messaging that we get or we hear around men should be ABCD, men cannot cry, men cannot be that emotional. What messages do you think you grew up hearing around how men are supposed to deal with emotions or pain? And how have you managed to navigate those messages, if at all? It sounds like you've come out on the other side at this point and you're probably freer and less inclined to stay quiet if you're navigating something because you've been through it. But yeah, share more on that.

Sabelo Dube (25:44):

Yeah, first off, I wouldn't say I'm out of it, I guess. It's just always a work in progress to say there's always something better which I could do in terms of that aspect. But then I think in terms of messaging, I even went to a boys only high school.

Angella Nantambi (26:02):

Oh dear.

Sabelo Dube (26:02):

[inaudible 00:26:03]. It was like that type-

Angella Nantambi (26:07):

[inaudible 00:26:07] there I'm sure.

Sabelo Dube (26:10):

It's like the hyper masculine environment of which ... So you tend to draw even the messaging and the way you compose yourself from that whole hyper masculine perspective where, oh, the guy is actually supposed to present themselves as this, yes, as this composed, solid emotionless person basically to say, well, nothing moves you because we are supposed to be ... At least in the traditional African sense, it was as the provider of the house. You're supposed to provide that stability, that foundation which is solid. And so that translates into not being emotional, not expressing what you truly feel inside, at least to the outside world.

(27:07):

And those are messages which are subconsciously reinforced. It's not like something which is out there, which is like, oh, it's written down so women are supposed to behave like this or that and that and that, or so on. But then it's kind of subtle hints or the way kind of culturalized, even as you're growing up and so on. And you learn even from the male figures in your life, the male figures in your community and so on, to say, "This is how I'm supposed to present myself." And that becomes part of your subconscious.

(27:44):

So yes, even funny things like, oh, a man is supposed to have maybe a deep voice, not necessarily a low or effeminate voice. So those subtle things which you're kind of socialized into as you're growing up and so on and you pick up on them and they become part of your personality or identity as a guy. We find a lot of that in our communities and in our societies. And I wouldn't even restrict it to just African society or the continent. It's just everywhere to say standards for being a man and so on. Of which it's a process kind of trying to unlearn those and get to the point of being able to speak freely and then learn some of the biases which we might have developed from that and so on. And I'm still part of that process and going through it myself.

Angella Nantambi (28:45):

Yeah. I must say I think some of these things are definitely perpetuated by us. Like when you say a man should have a deep voice, as a woman that sounds masculine to me. And me accepting that and not accepting someone, a male person with a softer voice, I'm already just heightening the notion that men should have a deeper voice. And I know as a society we have to do better in terms of how we condition boys to be boys and girls to be girls. I don't know how that is going to be, but there has to be a different way of raising men, especially when it comes to being expressive and feeling like you can emotionally share how you feel towards something about something to someone, and not feel like the whole world is crashing before you because you just opened up to someone.

(29:41):

I find that we have to do better as a society. And with friends as well, I find that men, at least the friends that I have, they joke a lot about how they feel. And even when it's really serious for them, it's just nothing, it's not that serious. But when I listen to it, I'm like, "Dude, this is something serious. You need to talk to someone." And for them, it doesn't feel like they have to talk to someone. And I don't know what that looks like for men, especially either going to therapy, like you said, or being open to asking for help when they need it and taking it seriously and not downplaying emotions for emotion's sake. Because again, as a society, we are conditioned to believe women are more emotional than men.

(30:36):

So when a woman cries about something they're navigating, that's okay. Oh, let me hug you, I'll open my arms because I know, I understand that this is who you are. But when a man does it, excuse me, why are you crying? And I think we need to break these things. We need to break the stereotypes that we've created for ourselves as a society. As scholars and alumni who are listening to this, we are getting to the age where we are now starting our own families. I think we have a clean slate to raise boys and girls in ways that supports their well-being, mentally, physically, and emotionally. What do you have to say, Sabelo?

Sabelo Dube (31:22):

Yeah, definitely the joking part can totally relate to it because it's more or less if you say it as a joke, it removes kind of that seriousness, which people will be like, oh, you are actually going through a mental health crisis or a mental health something, something which you're dealing with. So the joking kind of in a way tones it down to the way where people are not necessarily with raised eyebrows. But then yet it's not effective because then people don't take it as seriously as they should, even in that moment.

(32:01):

And there is definitely much room for change, especially in the way which we frame mental health and talk about it, even more so in the context of male to male friendships because I feel like at least male to female, there is a bit of window at least to say, oh, maybe a guy might open up a bit even in a joking way to a female because they feel like, okay, they might relate. Because at least based on our conditioning or socialization, we expect women to be emotional and so on. But then now when it comes to male to male, it's usually like ... We are just surface level. Our conversations [inaudible 00:32:49]-

Angella Nantambi (32:49):

I don't understand at all. I do not get it. What do you mean you went to hang out with your friend and you don't even know, you don't have any details about what's been happening in their lives. But you know the car they bought, you know the, I don't know, the sports game, how many goals were scored or whatever. But you don't know anything deeper than that. It's crazy to me. I don't get it. But I'm not a man, again.

Sabelo Dube (33:16):

Yeah, I think for most, even for my instance, I think for most of at least the guy friends which I have which I've felt comfortable to open up to, it's usually been people who have been in my life for so long say like, okay, now you probably even have kind of some historical context to my life a bit, or you have seen clips, so it's no longer as awkward opening up to you as it would've been maybe if we're just maybe a year into our friendship and so on. So that's a tactical aspect which I've seen which helps. And then in some instances the joking kind of leads at least people into eventually having the more serious conversations. Like say it might start as a joke and then eventually as people get into it it becomes more deep in a way, and it's not just a surface-level conversation or a surface-level joke which you just laugh about and so on.

Angella Nantambi (34:26):

For the women listening, yeah, I want to ask this question on their behalf, what do you guys chat about when you meet as guys? Because if you're not emotionally dumping on your friends, I don't know what else you're doing in conversations. So what do you guys talk about?

Sabelo Dube (34:43):

You can talk about all thing. You can talk about the football match yesterday, you can about can talk-

Angella Nantambi (34:47):

You talk about girls. You talk about girls.

Sabelo Dube (34:54):

We talk about girls. But then the other side to it, in our defense, the other side to it is to say through even those conversations, maybe as we're talking about soccer or talking about girls, the level of interaction which maybe we've had on that same topic before can kind of give me an insight to say, "Okay, maybe this guy's not in a good mood or in a good state," to say like, "Oh, maybe you're not as enthusiastic as you were about talking about your team maybe a year ago and so on, or talking about your recent football matches as usually are." That also can be kind of indications say as a friend maybe I need to step in and ask for more depth so as to get to maybe the root of the issue. So I wouldn't say it's all futile in a way. I think it's also an avenue to connect more deeply and start having those hard conversations.

Angella Nantambi (35:55):

Right. So it sounds like for the men to actually get to that deeper level and have these heart-to-heart conversations with each other, it requires time. But for the women, I think it's easier. Once you establish that relationship with someone, you're already starting and you're already going in deep from the get go, the conversation start there. I don't know whether you think A or B, I know you're my friend and I'm going to emotionally dump on you or something. So clearly I can see differences.

(36:30):

And for the men listening, I guess the call is to build those relationships that would allow you to freely express yourself and feel that sense of safety when sharing with these guys of yours, or your friends, your guy friends. And if not, your girlfriends maybe can be a safe space for you to share, if you have some. If you don't, maybe it's time to start finding one. To be that space for you to share something. At least navigating life alone can be very tricky. So as we come to the end of our conversation, yeah, I want us to talk about how healing looks like for you right now. I know you earlier mentioned that you're not there yet. And I think it's a journey of continuing to understand how you feel and managing those feelings as they come. But as of today, how does healing look or feel like for you? And how different is it from how you once thought it would be?

Sabelo Dube (37:35):

Okay. Healing for me for now it looks like being in the present moment, being in the present moment as in acknowledging my feelings, my moods, my emotions in that current moment so as to understand the past or how I even got to feeling that way. And in that way I can be best prepared for the future, that is now seek out the help which I need or seek out the tools which I would need to get myself to that perfect future which I envision. So it's a bit more like going to the gym. You don't just go to the gym once, get your perfect body and then you're like, "Well, I'm done exercising," and then I would just go and sit. It's work in progress. You have to continuously keep on putting in the work to take care of your mental health. You have to keep on watching out for your triggers and addressing them as soon as they start appearing so as to not find yourself in a terrible situation or in a situation where you are now entirely powerless.

(38:49):

So I think it's putting in the work every day, the same way which you do in anything which you are invested in, be it your body, your work or whatnot. You have to put in the work in order to get to where you want to be. And unfortunately for mental health in a way it doesn't end because you are reacting to different things, inasmuch as you have your own psychological, you also have your own environmental factors or social factors which are affecting you and so on. So you really have to get into everything, whichever works for you, whatever helps put your mind at ease. It could be jogging, it could be therapy, it could be listening to music, it could be reading, whatever it is which gets you back in that zen mode, which you feel like yourself again, is what you should keep on investing in.

Angella Nantambi (39:46):

Right. I will say for me personally, I think that over the years the more conversations I've had with people, the more I've learned that life is crazy. It's not going to be black and white every single time. Sometimes it's going to be red, as in danger, and sometimes it's going to be purple and sometimes it's going to be pink, it's going to be blue. And in all these different ways that life happens, it's going to be difficult to navigate those things. And the more I continue to have conversations, the more I learn to actually be free, have an open mind to have conversations with people about how I feel.

(40:34):

I was raised by my mom and it's interesting that I didn't ever hear her whine or cry or complain about things. I felt like she was the most powerful, she still is the most powerful human I know. She's so stable emotionally. She's so emotionally intelligent, she can control her emotions regardless of the circumstances around us. And I guess the environment dictated that she actually does that because if she emotionally just [inaudible 00:41:12] or blew up, we would blow up as well as children.

(41:17):

But I'm now realizing that, oh God, I have no idea how much she's bottled in over the years, that if she ever had one trigger it would explode her at this point in time. And I reflect on my own journey and think to myself, I don't want to ever have to act strong, act like I have it all together or feel like I cannot express myself in any way, shape, or form because I have this persona that I need to put up with. And this persona is dictated by probably my friends or my family or the world and what it says I should be, the strong independent black woman, emotionless and on the move to get things done. But really recognize when you're not happy. Recognize when I'm sad, recognize when I need to speak to someone, recognize when I need to sleep, because all these things allow me personally to thrive and put my mental health in check.

(42:22):

And spiritually, it has been very helpful at least for me in terms of centering myself and keeping me in the things I can control and the things I can't control. Oh my God, I can't do anything about them. I can only control what is before me. And the ones I can't control, lift them up to the creator because at this point I can't do anything about it. So I would say those are the ways I've personally tried as much as possible to stay grounded. Healing looks like that for me in this moment, especially after having gone through anxiety at the time when I did and having panic attacks about things I couldn't control. Man oh man, did that teach me about just centering myself and recognizing the things that are within my reach and those that aren't, and finding peace in that. Wow, what a conversation.

Sabelo Dube (43:22):

So when you're talking about your experience, at least from the female perspective, I think what came to mind was this persona which we present as men, it's performative to the opposite sex, which is women. It's not an isolation to say, it's like, okay, it might also be a desirable aspect among some women, like you mentioned earlier, like say a lady might say, "Oh, I want a guy with a deep voice." Yes. So I feel like it goes both ways in a way, to say the support, it's not just about men talking amongst each other, it's also about women being also part of the conversation and also kind of being aware of how some of the stereotypes which they might hold about men affect how they eventually socialize themselves to be. Let's say they want to fit into that narrative which is being presented about them. So yeah, I guess it all starts with having conversations like this. And the more people get talking, the more at least we move on to being more receptive to mental health and dealing with it.

Angella Nantambi (44:50):

Yeah. Yeah, certainly. And I think that the comment you made about these personas that we create for ourselves that are heavily, heavily influenced by external environment, or internally as well, if you want to come up a certain type of way, I think it has definitely come for women as well, especially with the feminist movement and the push for equality. It's not wrong, but of course it puts us in a certain bracket as women. As we show up at the workplaces, as we show up in relationships, as we show up in friendships, we are succumbing to the definition of what a strong woman should be and how you can hang out to the bros equally at the same time at the workplace or in social settings. And of course, that affects how we show up as women.

(45:47):

And though we've traditionally been believed to be more emotional than men, these narratives definitely affect how we show up. You are going to meet someone who is not emotional at all, but they are women. And that has been very much shaped by the environment they grew up in, the society they interact with, the people they hang out with, or the ambitions they have in life. If I want to be in the C-suite, I'm not going to just show up anyhow because it's going to affect how people respond towards me, how my bosses think. Can I handle pressure? Because if I'm crying at every single thing, hello, I don't think this person can be the leader that we want them to be. So I definitely think we come up, we'll create these personas for ourselves based on narratives around us, very much shaped by societal expectations of men, but also of women as we speak around issues around equality and feminism.

(46:50):

But again, these conversations I think are a great way to think about how we move forward as young people who are navigating life. And how do we want to raise our boys? How do we want to raise our girls? I think we want to raise emotionally available people. We want to raise emotionally aware people who can recognize when they're not okay and find the resources or seek for the help that they need to be better. And not be shamed for it. Because I think that's where things get challenging when you're shamed for not feeling okay.

(47:27):

I hope our listeners can move forward with the notion that feelings are okay, being sad is okay, asking for help is okay. And when you need help, please seek it, because ultimately you need to be better to move forward. You need to be better to hit those goals that you want to hit for yourself, for your family, and for your community at large. Any last remarks for our listeners, Sabelo?

Sabelo Dube (47:58):

I would say for anyone who's currently going through a depressive episode, I would say that it does get better, inasmuch as at this moment you might not see the end of the tunnel. But then trust me, it does get better. And so just hanging there, seek the help which you need, and don't be ashamed to call out for help at any moment. It's the only place where you can once you have hit rock bottom is up. So don't be afraid to pick yourself up and keep on moving.

Angella Nantambi (48:36):

That's right. And that's coming from a man. I love this. Thank you so much, Sabelo, for joining me in this conversation. I've learned so much as well. And I hope our listeners have picked a thing or two from our conversations. Join me next time for another great episode around something interesting, exciting as this conversation was.