The Journey to Tomorrowland Ep 4: How Global Immigration Policies Affect the Prospects of the Future of Work Opportunities for Young Africans with Blossom Egbude

Blossom Egbude is a seasoned policy analyst and a Mastercard Foundation Scholars Program Alumni from the University of Cambridge. 

In this episode, we discuss how restrictive global immigration policies are affecting opportunities for young Africans. By sharing her perspective as a young African in diaspora and a policy analyst, she identified opportunities for young Africans to better position themselves for the future of work.  Sit tight and enjoy this episode filled with wisdom and inspiration for the future of work. 

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Transcript

Michael Akintunde (00:04):

Hello there and welcome to Journey to Tomorrowland, a podcast series brought to you by the Mastercard Foundation's Baobab platform. The hem is simple to reimagine how we understand the future of work by listening to inspiring stories and learning from powerful moments that shape our journeys. I believe the future of work is deeply personal and that every story matters in how we define it. My name is Michael Atkinson Day. I'm an alumni of the MasterCard Foundation Scholars Program at the University of Cambridge, and I will be your host. In each episode, I sit down with guests from diverse educational and professional migrants to share their stories, offer their perspectives on the future of work, and of course, leave us with an unforgettable dream of inspiration. So sit tight and let's get started.

(01:10):

Thank you again, all the listeners, for joining in on this particular episode. This particular one, I'm super excited because it's a conversation that's most recent and what I really think we will be able to discuss is very related. It's actually at the heart of the topic around the future of work, migration, and moving around. So I'm super excited for the guest I have here with me on the podcast today. Her name is Blossom here today. She's an alumni of the Mastercard Foundation Scholars Program from the University of Cambridge. So Blossom, without me taking charge of introducing you, I want you to introduce yourself in your own words, your story. Where did the horse start? How did the hot begin and where you are now and what you're currently doing?

Blossome Egbude (02:01):

Okay. Thank you so much, Michael. Such a privilege to be here. I'm very excited to have this conversation. So thank you for inviting me to be on today's episode. My name is Blossom Egbude like you've mentioned, and I am an Alumni of the Mastercard Foundation Scholars Program from the University of Cambridge. I am a lawyer and a policy advisor. And while I was at the University of Cambridge, I studied for a master's of philosophy in public policy. So I have worked across law and then now in public policy, trying to promote the policies that continue to shape our world on a day-to-day basis. So my story, that's such an interesting question. Even sure where to begin, but like I said, my background is in law and I've worked across a couple of different organizations from across Nigeria as well as South Africa, did a short stint in the US as well, and now currently based in London, working for a London-based policy advisory organization.

(03:00):

So it's been an interesting journey, so I'm hoping to harness all of those experiences into today's conversation.

Michael Akintunde (03:08):

And for anyone, a transition from law into public policy, that seems like a big deal. What motivated you to be like, oh, I'm going to leave law for lawyers and then go into the public policy space?

Blossome Egbude (03:22):

Yeah, it has been an interesting transition for sure. I like to tell people that law and policy are two parts of the same system. So for me, it didn't really feel like that fundamental in terms of abandoning one for the other in that sense. The way I see it is in my day-to-day work as a policy advisor, I still incorporate a lot of the things that I learned from law, as well as a lot of the work experiences and culture that I took from that experience as well into what I do. So to a large extent, it still does shape my work. And even working in policy advisory, sometimes you do have to analyze legislation and you have to track legislation and understand the implications of certain legislations and policies for you to make a proper advice or recommendation. So again, I still feel like I'm in the game in some way, to be honest.

(04:19):

But yeah, I would say that it was not a difficult transition, but also not really easy in that sense. I think I was just really trying to find a way to combine all the things I'm very passionate about and that I love. I mean, for me, I think I was so tired of seeing Africans being left out of policy conversations. I think that policy without proximity to lived experiences only produces bad outcomes. And there were a lot of policy spaces and consultations happening, and I didn't feel like the people who lost policies were going to affect were adequately represented. And I wanted to learn my voice and make sure that I was centering us in the conversation. That was what motivated me. For me, it's been sort of a combination of both in that sense. Well,

Michael Akintunde (05:09):

It's super exciting to actually hear that perspective. I also always say to people that law and public policy and know really for you when you think about policies shaping our world right now, you'll see the law dimension, the legal dimension, so to say. So that's really, really fantastic. But let me just take you a little bit into that question as well. So you've been in the public policy space for, let's say, almost three years now, if I get that correctly. What is exciting about being in that space, especially for people that may be thinking, "Oh, is there an opportunity for me? Is there anything in that space that is really exciting to work on?

Blossome Egbude (05:47):

" Yeah, I mean, there's so many exciting things. And that's the thing about policy I think is there's just always something new. There's so much happening. I mean, governments will always try to think about solutions to different social problems, and they are going to implement those solutions to policies. So now, for example, AI is becoming a thing, and it's a big thing. Governments are thinking about that. They're thinking about how they need to regulate it, how they need to ensure they can handle the benefits of AI without necessarily harming societies or harming policy agendas. So now we have people who are specialized in AI policy. So with policy, there's always something new happening. When tech became a thing, we have people who specialize now in technology policy. We have people who do trade policy, economic policy. And I mean, the government is a going concern.

(06:37):

It's always moving, it's always evolving, it's always going to be here. We cannot escape it. And so we need people who are going to learn about how different things affect the government and also learn about how the government can respond to certain things to ensure that it is meeting the needs of its people and ensuring that these things are not really harming them. So when we talk about public policy, I think it just really evolves a lot. And another very interesting thing I find about public policy, it's allowed you to be creative, and that's what I really love most about it, is the fact that you are actually solving social problems. You're actually thinking about what we could be doing differently as a whole, as a country, as a government, as the world. There is room for creativity in proposing recommendations to policymakers, to people in the corridors of power about certain things.

(07:34):

You're doing a lot of research, you're reading so much, you're writing so much, but you're also creatively trying to solve problems. Sometimes it's kind of like a game in some sense because sometimes you have to test those solutions as well to see how the society would respond to them or how people will respond. And if it doesn't work or if it's not achieving the desired response, we try something new again. It's so interesting. There's a particular example that I really find interesting when I try to explain policy to people. It's about sometime in Nigeria a very, very long time ago. I think there was this issue with too many cars on the road at the time. And the governments did a policy about people who have even number car plates to drive on certain days and those who have odd number car plates. That's an example of how we tear social problems through policy.

(08:24):

And eventually just wasn't working, they had to do something else. But doing those sort of things, trying to creatively solve human problems through the instrument of states, it's a very interesting thing. And there's so many, I think, opportunities, not just within the government. Of course, I don't even work for the government, but people who work in private sector as well, there are companies who are always thinking about how they can front load their agenda to the government. They have people who work in government affairs, they have regulatory departments, who interface with governments who are trying to ensure that they are properly regulated, government understands what they're doing, they can partner with the government because again, you cannot escape it. It's what I'm saying. Government's actions have serious implications for people and businesses. So that's what I find interesting about public policy.

Michael Akintunde (09:10):

I think that is genuinely interesting because I also always think about public policy and the sort of responsibility that comes with that. Just like you rightfully mentioned, there's the place where it seems like you're running experiment in the society. You're trying to see what works, what doesn't work. But at the end of the day, you have to be at the responsibility of what you roll out and test on the society. I think that part is really, really interesting. And that leads me straight up to the next question I want to ask you, which is actually at the heart of this conversation, which is around the future of work. So right now, I do understand that there are a lot of policies out there shaping directly or indirectly the future of work, but before we begin to explore them and what they mean, what do you feel like?

(09:59):

How do you think about a future of work when the concept is rolled out in the space? Because it seems to have different meaning to different people.

Blossome Egbude (10:07):

The future of work is such an interesting thing to talk about. I think even I have been thinking about this recently. I mean, haven't we all? I mean, when we talk about AI taking people's jobs, and I'm sure you've probably heard this a couple times mentioned on the podcast, it's a genuine concern for a lot of people. And even me, when I think of the future of work, I mean, I think it's definitely going to evolve. And like anything like the world has done for the past, what, 2,000 plus years, it's always going to evolve. And even in people have predictions about what will happen in 2030, and even by then, things might have evolved again. We may be having this conversation again in a thousand years if the world continues to exist by that time. So I think it's a very normal thing. I think there's a lot of fear around it, especially with the advent of technology and innovation, which is valid, but at the same time, I think there's a lot to appreciate from it as well.

(10:57):

What I would say is, I think it's really about thinking about how your role could possibly, or your job or your industry could possibly change in the past couple years. I think a couple of things will already show you indications of that from currently from how it's happening right now. For example, there's been a lot of ... In my organization, for instance, there's been a lot of AI innovation happening. We even have an AI consultant now because we've been real and honest about how these things can change our work. And I think while there's a lot of fear about AI taking jobs, which is very valid, I think there should also be some hope about creating more jobs as well. I think even though there will be a lot of jobs that will be extinct in that sense, I think a lot of jobs will also be created again.

(11:43):

And I think the World Economic Forum, they had mentioned this as well. They released the reports, I think last year on the future of work, and I find that to be very true. Now we're talking about AI engineers a couple years ago, we were not really talking about this, we're talking about AI governance, for example, or AI policy, like I mentioned. These are the things that we were really specifically focusing on at the time, but now we do have to pay attention to them and we have to create roles that accommodate them. Even with the climate crisis, for instance, now we have ESG as a role, even within consulting firms, within organizations, they have ESG managers, people are thinking about sustainability and governance and those sort of things. It was not necessarily that fully fleshed out previously. So I think now in the fourth industry revolution, we have to then think about how to innovate, how to upskill ourselves, how to use these tools as a way to support the work that we're doing and not necessarily to run away from ... I don't think there's any run away from it at this point.

(12:44):

And when I think about it, asides with technology, so I think a lot of automation will happen. That's what I think. So a lot of jobs, like I said, will be extinct. Before we have people who ... This was so interesting. I found out that there used to be a job. If you go to a bowling early, there used to be a job where people actually come out and arrange the pins. So when you roll the ball and hit the pins, the people whose jobs actually to come and arrange the pins back and then you get ... I mean, now we don't have those anymore because it's automated. It's a whole machine that will arrange the pins and put them. You understand what I mean? So exactly. Jobs will continue to evolve. I think a lot of automation will happen. That's the first thing. The second thing I think as well will be, I think people will begin to really define a lot of their jobs around flexibility like we're already seeing.

(13:30):

COVID, for example, brought a lot of working from home kind of culture, which we're not doing before. I work from home three days a week, and I don't know how I was able to do five days previously before this happened. It just seems so alien to me right now, and that is exactly what it's going to be about. There are people who are building portfolio careers, which I found out it just means having different sort of work that you're doing. So people are like, you're a yoga instructor or you're also doing product manager. People are really leading how their careers are looking. We're moving from a culture where everything is so defined and so strict in that sense. So I think it's scary, especially with technology, but I think it's also exciting, the kind of things that we can continue to do and will do as work evolves.

Michael Akintunde (14:19):

So it's mixed feeling. I know that there are some sort of positive things that would happen, but at the same time, I need to position myself and I need to think critically about what's going to happen in the next five to 10 years.

Blossome Egbude (14:33):

Yeah, exactly that. Yeah. And your point about positioning yourself is something, again, that I think I should mention here. So interesting because now when we talk about future of work as well, we're seeing how people who, for example, a developer in Lagos or Nairobi or Johannesburg Cam, we're working for an American company from the comfort of their countries. I mean, that is how much work has evolved, that's how much it will continue to evolve as well. I think it's exciting, like I said, but again, given the example I just mentioned, there's also a sort of worry about how we are beginning to accommodate for those things. So for instance, the internet infrastructure in those places, that kind of thing, these are the issues that are coming up, visa issues, all of those things. But I think it still has created a lot of access. There's now much more accessibility for professionals, and I think that access will only continue to grow as well continues to develop.

Michael Akintunde (15:23):

So let's start into your policy exporters, because just in the last thing you mentioned, you mentioned something that's related to internet infrastructure, but there is a particular thing that I think will be very interesting for our audience to learn more about, which is around visa, for example. So there is a lot of global immigration policies being rolled out in places like the UK, in Canada, most conspicuously is the US telling people, "We don't want you in our country or we think your presence in our country is creating problems." And I must say, just for context that this is no new, this has always been a thing throughout history, but right now it would definitely, it's like this is happening and it's at the intersection of another revolution, which is artificial intelligence. So when you combine this together, I just want to know what you think.

(16:14):

How do you think this impact our idea, our concept, and our stability when we think about the future of work?

Blossome Egbude (16:20):

This is a big question that we can ignore definitely has a big impact. That's not even another answer to that. It does have a big impact on how we think about the future of work and the kind of work that we can do. So for example, like I mentioned, we have people now who are working across borders who don't have to live the comfort of their country to work in different countries that also, for example, with policy, just like you mentioned, it created a whole new room for regulation too. So previously it was so traditional that you had to move, you work where your office is based, and now governments are saying, no, people didn't really move. So now how do we tax them? For example, we have the traditional way of taxing companies who pay payee tax. And now we have to then think about how to tax people as individuals, even though they're working for organizations, because even if it's in another country.

(17:12):

So what's currency to be taxed? I mean, how do we tax them? How do we regulate this? That is how policy evolves with work as it moves forward. But again, the visa issue, yes, very big deal. Just like you've mentioned in the US and the UK, even in Canada, there's been so much happening. I think what we're seeing now though is a decisive shift towards more highly selective skills-based immigration. So people want people who are going to contribute some high level skills to their economy.

(17:43):

So lots of skilled immigration schemes, streams and schemes are coming up, I think. On the surface, I think they do appear to be very decratic in sense of it's merit-based, but I think there could be some biases as well that are involved. For example, English proficiency is a big issue. You have to know how to speak English or work experience in certain economies or even being under 30 I think can determine. For example, for Canada's express entry, if you're under 30, you gain some points. So these are some things that just can be some factors to consider. But I think simultaneously we're seeing a rise in what I call managed restriction. So managed restriction just means that countries, they want labor, but they don't want the long-term settlement. They do want you to come and work for them and improve your economy and pay taxes, but they don't want you to stay there for too long.

(18:37):

We're here for a good time and a long time, essentially. So yeah, I think that's very, very draining for migrant workers because people are trying to find a better life trying to move around. And there's all of these growing internships when it comes to these things with relatives of remote work and everything. So I think now we're seeing, for example, digital nomad visas where you can actually come and work without actually being tied out to a location. So a lot is happening, I would say in that sense, but I think it's really, like I said, a lot of skill-based immigration schemes are opening up. The central theme I think that's emerging is that countries are, essentially, they do actually want skilled workers. They want people who can come and contribute to the economy. But again, not wanting me to stay too long, but the key thing is skilled workers.

(19:28):

So I think everyone needs to think about their jobs in terms of that, what skills am I actually getting from my jobs am I using in this job and how can I continue to upscale, I think will be very important in the coming years.

Michael Akintunde (19:41):

So let me try and center this in the African context. Some people have said, look, this thing about global immigration politics telling all of us the youth in Africa don't come here, not exclusively to Africans, but it's all over the world. But some people are like, oh, it's usually Africans, young Africans that are kind of going to Canada, to the UK, to the US. Some have said that this policies, it's a way to actually catalyze development in Africa because if you are restricted from coming, then you would have to stay back in your country and then developed it. Someone say no, it's kind of like a real setback for people that want to develop their skis. What do you think about this two side of the argument?

Blossome Egbude (20:29):

I think there's definitely a paradox and I think there's merit to both sides of the arguments, honestly. I think the policies are restrictive in a way of, I think they're beginning to force Africa to have conversations that we should have been having for a long time. To be honest, about retaining talent, for example, Africa is the youngest continent. We have a lot of young people. The most populous young people felt continents, if that makes any sense. So we have so much talent. So we need to think about how to grow those talents and how to retain those talents. We need to think about how to invest in local ecosystems. We have people working in tech, people working in engineering, working in all sorts of different things who have shown really great skill, even fashion, the creative arts. Africa has continued to export talent and African created things have continued to be exported even beyond actual physical products.

(21:22):

But in terms of our creativity, you go on the streets of London and someone is playing an African song or something. People know African artists, they know African movies. I was like, these are things that ... Someone was telling me how Nollywood, for example, in Nigeria is such a big deal. Apparently there's South Africans who really know Nollywood or people in Uganda who watch ... I remember being in Johannesburg and someone asked me if I named Mr. Ibo. And I was like, "Yeah, I do know Mr. Ebel, but how do you know? " You know what I mean? It's almost as if our reputation precedes us in that sense. Our work actually leaves the shores of the continent before some of us do. And so that is really important. I read an article recently, I think it wasn't The Economist on Nigerian fashion, and it was a very interesting article about how people not want to buy Nigerian-made fashion, Nigerian made things.

(22:13):

Those are the kind of things that we as a continent should be investing in, we should be talking about, we should be talking about how to retain our talent. Everyone can't leave essentially. It's also expensive to migrate, right? So these are things that we should be talking about. So I think there is a merit in saying that these restrictive policies are creating an avenue for us to really keep people in, but also, but it's not just about keeping people in. We need to think about how to help people that are in actually, how to help them improve their skills, how to use their skills. So there's a merit in that sense. I think about being excluded, that's also a very valid point. African professionals being denied thiss are actually excluding us in so many ways, especially from global networks. I think as much as we want people to stay, retain talent, grow the economy, I think there's also a lot of merits of having people leave as well.

(23:04):

As a member of the African diaspora and myself, I would say that honestly, there's so many benefits to this. There's knowledge transfer, for example, is one of the biggest benefits we can get from this. There are people who actually leave for a period of time and return to bring the things they've learned back into the continent. I think we need that. We need to see what we're up against. We need to see the kind of things that are obtainable in other places, the kind of skills they're getting, and we need to make ourselves globally competitive on those stages as well. That is very important for the future of our continent as well. Even though while doing this, we need to retain our Africanness in that sense. The way I like to think about it is going out, learning as much as you can, getting as much knowledge, and then bringing it back into an African context, an African way.

(23:53):

So I think net transfer are very important. There are also remittances from people in the diaspora as well, which is also helpful for the continent. There's diaspora investment. I've seen a group who have African diaspora, an African diaspora network that does social impact projects in the continents, they contribute and do ... So those are things that are important. So I think both sides of the argument have a lot of merit to them. But the question is whether African governments and institutions will use this as a moment to build genuinely competitive local environments at this point.

Michael Akintunde (24:30):

Just like you had fully mentioned, it's an opportunity as well for the continent to say, okay, we've got this huge number of young individuals that are willing and capable of working and we need to do something to ensure that whether it's in the agricultural sector, it's in the energy sector or it's in the educational sector, we could empower them. And I think that's one of the best things that the MasterCard Foundation's Colors Program have recognized to go on like, "Hey, we've got amazing and talented individuals that if we empower them, they would go on to do amazing and amazing things." But let me ask you, because you are an African in diaspora and then you've seen what the immigration policies can do, how does that make you feel? What does that mean to you during your transition period?

Blossome Egbude (25:20):

How does it make me feel? I don't know. I mean, it's tough. It's tough because it determines your participation to a certain degree.

(25:31):

It limits a lot of things you can do. It limits how much you can fully integrate yourself into society and how much you can fully participate as a member as well. There's also a certain set of consciousness. There's this sense of urgency that you feel when your visa is running out or you have to apply for something and those sort of things, those are things that are very, very valid. So how does it make me feel? I would say the general feeling is just wanting to ensure that I am able to contribute as much as I can within the ambit of the immigration ecosystem right now, in this space right now. I tell myself that I don't want certain restrictions on immigration to stop me from doing good work. That's important to me. Even if let's assume I'm also kind of visa where I have to live in three months or something like that, I want to use those three months to the best of my ability.

(26:26):

Do you get what I mean? I want to use this opportunity to get as many skills as I can to improve myself as much as I can, and then to also impact people back home as much as I can as well. So I think there's a lot of fear, there's a lot of apprehensiveness as well to immigrating because you have to work twice as hard, you have to think 10 steps ahead of everyone else because you have an extra layer of challenge that you need to overcome that most people cannot relate to. Honestly, in certain areas, you also have to consider taking certain jobs or not taking certain jobs because your visa started certain things. There's all these conditions. So yeah, it's not easy, I would say. It's not easy for ... I don't think anyone in ASPRA would tell you that it's easy as an African working ... So the general feeling rather is just having ... There's a lot of apprehension and confusion because you also don't know how policies will change in the next couple months.

(27:24):

I mean, one day we woke up and said Nigeria was on the list of people who could not apply for US visas all of a sudden. And people had plans. You can't even go to school and everything. People had plans to go do MBAs or whatever, and all of a sudden they can't do that anymore. So there's a general feeling of you just don't know what to expect next. What would the Pandora box bring today? You have no idea. So yeah, the general feeling I think is just, like I said, a lot of confusion happens, especially how quickly policies change. But like I said as well, it's also about there should be a sense of also wanting to utilize the opportunities that you have currently as much as possible, building the right skills that you need within the ecosystem as much as you can, so that even if it requires you to go back or something happens, those skills are things that will never leave you, that you would always have and can always leverage upon moving forward.

Michael Akintunde (28:18):

Yeah. So let me pick on that. Did you ever feel the pressure like, "I don't want to go back," because I think that's a thing as well, oh, if I were to go back to the continent to Africa, there is nothing actually for me to do. That's what some people say, "Okay, there's no job. Where would I start from? And I'm right here, so I can use the opportunity here despite the fact that the global immigration policy is saying a different thing." Did you ever feel that pressure?

Blossome Egbude (28:43):

No. But to be honest, and this is very personal for different people, I would say this is my personal response. I don't think there are no jobs in Africa. I don't believe that. I actually have seen really good jobs, like opportunities that have come up. I think it's all about weighing your options at a particular time. I think it's about making decisions based off of what you're faced with at every particular time and considering that it gets a benchmark of what you are trying to do with your career or with your life, I guess. So for me, I have never believed there are no jobs on the court. I mean, they're difficult job markets. I'm not going to deny that and all act like I don't know that that's true. But what I'm saying is I do think there' still opportunities regardless. I think the people who are in Africa leading great lives working really well.

(29:33):

I have some of them as friends. So I think it's really, honestly, I've never been the kind of person who was scared to go back home if he came back to it. I'd always told myself that coming here, because I moved from Africa to do my master's at Cambridge, that was a strategic opportunity for me. I moved based off of strategic opportunities. That's how I define my movements in life. For me, it's about what would this opportunity bring me? And at this point in time, is this what What I need. So like I said, when I was in Nigeria, I knew that I wanted to know better about public policy because my background is a lot, like I said, I enjoyed working in public policy. I wanted to upskill myself and I thought, oh, where is the best place I can do this? And then I was like, okay.

(30:17):

I was like, oh, I want to go to the UK. And now there's Cambridge, fantastic place. Mastercard saw an opportunity in me and they invested. And I took that opportunity and I came to the UK and I did my master's and I have no regrets. And then again, with jobs, another opportunity came like, oh, this is a really good place to build new skills. I wanted to work out of Nigeria because I'd worked in Nigeria for a long time and I wanted to get better skills and just upskill myself. Again, knowledge transfers, like I said. So for me, no, I have no fears about going back home. Quite frankly, if I think it's a strategic opportunity that will meet the needs of my life at that point in time and position me for the kind of things I'm trying to do with my life, I would take it.

(31:00):

I have no fear about it.

Michael Akintunde (31:02):

Well, I agree with you 100% because I think at every point, some of the biggest decisions of our life are going to be based on strategic opportunities. That one thing that just came our way, and then you have to just take that opportunity. And I also always tend to argue that if you build the more skills you build, exposing yourself to different culture, different working environment, the more you can really grow. And then if ultimately you have to go back to the continent, you will be able to contribute immensely, then you are based prematurely and then you went half and then there's no difference between when you left and when you're back. It just doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

Blossome Egbude (31:42):

One thing I've seen is that people, I feel like some of the people who even make some of the most crucial contributions to our content are people who have left, who left and returned. I think that is a very valid thing. If someone is thinking about, I want to leave Africa, I want to just go get skills and come back, I don't think that is a bad decision at all. I think it just has to be the right opportunity. People have left and come back as ministers in their countries and done really amazing work for them or come back and work in the African Union. Because in Africa, we need strong institutions and we need people who will build those institutions. And some of them are people who have gone out to see what is obtainable outside, who have learned new things and are coming back to do it.

(32:22):

So I don't think anyone should be demonized for doing that. I think there's a lot of things around like, "Oh, how can you come back?" Or like, "Why are you here?" Yes, we can't say we don't have the problems. We do have problems as a continent that we need to be dealing with. However, I do feel like people need to invest back into continent that's important as well. And anyone who wants to do that should not be demonized.

Michael Akintunde (32:47):

Yeah, and I think that's the right word.

Blossome Egbude (32:49):

I don't think that. And it's so crazy because even some of the people who live here, they would've been living better lives in Africa, that's just so insane about it. People come here and think it's some part of gold waiting for you. Absolutely not. At least that's not been my experience. Yes, things look up at different points, but it's never easy to approach your life. If socially, being away from your family for such a long time and only seeing them once in a while, people's parents die and they're not even there to attend the funerals because they are over here trying to struggle forward. I think it's about knowing yourself. So people who, for example, I know some friends, for example, are like, "Oh yeah, I don't think I can ever work outside the continent because I want to be close to my family. I'm very family person.

(33:37):

I want to be around them." And they're doing great. They're making money doing well. Like I said, it's all about strategic opportunity, about knowing yourself, about what works for you, what's best for you. And at the end of day's your decision.

Michael Akintunde (33:48):

So I picked from what you were saying as well that strategic opportunities and upskilling yourselves and getting exposed. So now we've talked about the future of work. You talked about artificial intelligence and again, the strategic opportunities. So I wonder right now, what strategic opportunities are you seeing and what ways are you building yourself, your skills to make sure that this AI revolution is not going to synonymize you, so to say?

Blossome Egbude (34:17):

The first thing is data literacy. I think data literacy is so important. AI is fed by data. They grow by data. For example, I think the ability to read, to interrogate, to communicate with data is very essential. As someone who works in policy, these are very essential things as well, because if you don't have policies that are backed by evidence, you cannot convince anyone to take them on as a recommendation, for instance. But also I think in this, for example, now we have people who trade AI, you need data to do that. So I think data literacy, data analysis is such an important skill people should be considering in this new age or in this new world. I think another thing is cross-sector translation. So for example, speaking in silos doesn't work anymore. I think we live in a very global world. We've been talking about how the world is now like a global village for such a long time, but it's really true.

(35:16):

It's really, really true. Knowing how to translate skill across sectors, knowing how to speak the language of different people is so important. Bringing people together to the table between government, private sector, civil society, tech communities, knowing how to simplify knowledge and speak their language across different sectors is an important skill that I think is necessary today. I think another thing is also not even communication. I think storytelling is such an undirected skill, and I've been doing this for such a long time, and I say this because AI is important in translating data. But I think another thing that we've also seen is that sometimes it can be very generic in the way that AI develops solutions or develops responses. You can tell someone they writes with AI, very obviously. I think we're expressing a depth of critical thoughts, to be honest. I'm afraid. I'm very afraid, honestly.

(36:19):

So I think storytelling is so important. It's the skill of translating something like data or information into a narrative that can move people, that is easily understood by people. It's so important. I think you cannot take out this role and space of human integration and human perception, if that's the right word, into these things. Because sometimes it's, again, when AI generates something very nice, you can tell that this does not come from a human being. And I think we also think about AI in terms of aiding our work, in terms of helping us do the mundane things. You don't want to keep doing the repetitive things, but when it comes to ... We need to think with AI, not through AI, if that makes sense. You can't let it define how you think. You can't outsource your thinking to AI, essentially. That's what I mean, Chicago I'm saying.

(37:19):

So I think storytelling is an important thing. Narrative building, communication, important things. So even though you can wake up this very beautiful write up and everything with artificial intelligence, you also need to learn to relate to the human side of people as well. And that's only what human beings can do, in my opinion. So I think that some skills are very important. And in that skill I found it important as well, and this is probably very overlooked, is actually in the area of speaking people's languages and translation, it's also been learning new languages I think is such an important skill, and I think it's not an important skill for a long time. But even more so now, we talk about migration a lot. People want to move and sometimes they're hindered by the languages of the countries they want to move to. I think being open to learning other languages is a very important skill.

(38:13):

People need to really pay attention to French, German, whatever it is. I think it's so important as well because then it helps you to be more mobile in how you work and in how many stakeholders you can work across essentially. So I think what I've learned in general is just that we need to be intentional about building networks, by building the right skill, because I think the future of Africans can only be defined by Africans at the end of the day. It will not be set to the Washington and Geneva. It's going to be by us and we need to be building the right skill in this future of work to ensure that we're able

Michael Akintunde (38:47):

To do that. Yeah. So let me also pick one of the points that you raised, and this might be as we are moving to the end of the conversation. So you did mention that AI is breathing the depth of critical thinking. Do you want to expand more than that? Because I've listened to people that would go ... It's like I'm becoming more dumb by today. And there's some research that people have conducted that show that something is actually going wrong in the way people now think now. What have you found so far?

Blossome Egbude (39:21):

First of all, I'm the kind of person who enjoys social media. I don't know, and that's a very weird thing to say probably. But when I want to laugh, I just go on TikTok or social media, I love ... I think people are so creative. I think human beings are so creative. I think we are just beautiful people. The kind of things people turn out there, even the kind of things people see on Twitter. I mean, the kind of stories we write, the kind of skates people do. Funny. I love it. It makes me so happy.

(39:51):

But one thing I've enjoyed as well is going online to read things. I like reading things. I like exposing my mind to a lot of information, controlled information that is. And one thing I've become very upset about is saying people write the same things these days. When you read it, you know that this is not from this person's brain. This is definitely AI coded. You see things like ... Okay, for example, the MDs, everyone look at the MDashes now that you're writing. I actually use M dashes before, but now I've stopped because I won't say that it's AI. I wrote this thing. The second thing is, I think one of the things we enjoy about writing is the authenticity of it, but now it doesn't seem authentic. You write in your own voice, the people who write in Pigeon English, who writes in Europe, who writes in different things.

(40:38):

It is the authenticity of your own voice. The fact that we can see ourselves in what you are writing, we can relate to that situation as human beings. And the way you write it, I can actually feel like, for example, someone writing Pigeon, I can actually feel your emotions because I speak Pigeon and I know what it means to ... I think in English are very different things. You get what I'm saying? But now, for example, you see people writing the same way. Somebody's trying to say a story or something. You not say something like, "What's the most popular AI I think I can't even think of?

(41:06):

" I was going not from fear, but from why I know that you want to be AI. I think that it is, while your story is amazing, I don't feel a connection anymore. And I found that that is how I felt reading through social media. Sometimes even reading through people's comments on posts, to just comment on a post, people cannot do it without AI. Do you know what I mean? It removes that authenticity, removes that emotion from it. At least that's been my experience. So when I read it, I just feel detached. This feels so mechanic in my opinion. So I think I've said a lot, but some of what I'm trying to say essentially is that I think people are no longer thinking critically for themselves. And I think that's not what AI is meant to do. The point of this artificial intelligence is not for it to replace human thinking.

(41:56):

It's not for it to replace because people buy into narratives because they can relate. Human emotion meets human emotion. That's how these things work. It's when we marketing with advertising, sometimes we buy things out of like, oh, I can see myself in this person. This is my experience. I'm going to buy this thing. Do you get what I'm saying? So imagine if our authors change my mind or start using AI to write. I do think we need to learn how to do AI to compliment what we do, make it easier, but not necessarily replace it. We need to understand that our own thoughts are authentic and necessary. Our voices are so important and we need to use them together with the experiences that we have.

Michael Akintunde (42:36):

Well, it's definitely, definitely crazy because I can definitely relate with what you're saying. We are kind of in that hearing age where everything just seems the same and no one seems to be thinking outside the box. And I'm trying to solve one of the problems in that space as what I noticed because I was like, people use artificial intelligence more and more, but when it comes to actually having a conversation with another human being or being a published speaker or telling a good story, just like you mentioned, people begin to struggle, which means you could tell say, "Write a speech for me. " And it's going to give you all the hem dashes that you need, but when it comes to you actually delivering the speech, artificial intelligence is not going to be there for you. So you need to build that skills and you need more to lose because just like I discussed with one of the guests I had on the podcast as well, it's one of the most underrated skills is your ability to ask questions.

(43:39):

So being able to question things to say, "Well, why is this like that? We edit. Why can't we do it otherwise?" ChatGPT doesn't allow you, for example, because when you type in something, it has been programmed to suggest your next line of thinking.

Blossome Egbude (43:53):

You're so right. You're completely wrong because it was not made to replace the way you think. Yeah. So I think I'm afraid for critical thoughts. I need the secretaries of this generations to rise and rebel against this people.

Michael Akintunde (44:11):

I have one final question for you. And after that, we call it a close on the podcast today. So there is a tradition where I ask the guest on the podcast that is there one book that has had the most impact on your life.

Blossome Egbude (44:26):

Oh, one book. I think I would say the Bible. I'm not even kidding. And the reason I say that is because my value system as a human being has been defined by it. It's mainly who I am in terms of what my thoughts on things, like my values, my ... Yeah, essentially it has really defined my values as a human being because I had to then sit down and itemize like, well, what do I want to stand for as a person? Who do I really want to be as a person? And the more I read it, the more I found myself in it and the kind of person I wanted to be. So that is one of the things. I'm trying to think of another book that is not a religious book. Something, I don't know, I read a lot of fiction. I love reading fiction and nonfiction and everything.

(45:16):

I really like this book, but I can't say it's defined my life in that sense. I would just say that it's something that has made me very ... So the book is actually called The Was A Country By Chinoachebe. This is not a fiction book. It's actually, yes, it's a real life story about Nigeria and civil war that happened in Nigeria. And it spoke a lot about ... Why I like this book and because of the way it was writing is because he speaks a lot about how there was a civil war in Nigeria between the Eastern Nigeria and the rest of Nigeria. And he speaks about how in that particular scenario, just the sheer ingenuity and just genius that people showed in that time to be able to sustain themselves because they were at war. So because the Eastern Nigeria was separated from all of Nigeria and everything, people started creating bombs by themselves within that community, like just Eastern Nigeria.

(46:18):

So people said innovating so much. And I think it just restructured my thinking a lot. First of all, it dispels the lies that we're not innovating as Africans. That's untrue by every respect. Africans are very smart, very innovative people. And I think another thing it does for me is just, it makes me think that the rest of circumstances, people can actually create things from scratch. It also talks talk about a lot of resilience. It shows a lot of resilience as well, I think. So the reason why I like that book, and I go back to it a lot of times, is that it just shows that there is so much richness on the continent using just one group as an example now, but being true for almost all of them. And a lot of different African countries coming together to support the efforts of peace and all those things, it also shows brotherhood in a very rich way as well.

(47:18):

So for me, I feel like it's a book every African non-read. It's a very interesting book. It's really shaped my thinking. It has helped me really think a lot more beyond myself as a person, but about how my life and my work will influence my community moving forward and just wants to make me step up to do things within the continent because we really are a very strong, amazing, resilient group of people. And yeah, books like this, I think continue to just show how much we can give to the world.

Michael Akintunde (47:49):

Well, I do agree with you. I'm a big fan of Gino Cebe. I read almost all of his books from No Longer At He's To Things Fall Apart. So it's really, really, really lovely. But I didn't see the first book, so to say, in quotes that you mentioned the Bible, I didn't see that coming because a lot of people wouldn't even look into that space. I think that's super important because just like the question was framed, it has had the most impact on your life. And again, thank you so much everybody for listening to these amazing and wonderful and insulisive and entertaining and engaging conversation with Blossom. It's shifted my perspectives on a lot of things, from global policies around migration to feature of work, to artificial intelligence, and the right skills that we all need to be building. Thank you again, and I hope that you would listen to the next episode.

(48:49):

Right.