How Codependent Men Can Finally Take Charge of Their Lives - Dr Robert Glover

Interview with Robert Glover -  author of No More Mr Nice Guy

drglover.com
integrationnation.net

toddzemek.com

Transcript

Todd Zemek: [00:00:00] Look, thank you for joining me. And my audience and the guys that I work with. Yeah, really grateful for your book. I recommend it so frequently. It's had a big impact on my life. And I tell the guys that I work with that I've read this probably seven times. I read this each year.

And not, not 

Dr Robert Glover: only does it You've maybe read it more the times than I have, at least in the last few 

Todd Zemek: years. Maybe I've got more to work on. But I come back and, and realize that, Oh yeah, it's easy for me to say that this is behind me. But there's always another edge. Yeah, it's been very, very helpful in that regard.

Dr Robert Glover: I, I went back, it must have been six years ago. They, they did just a, just a few little slight changes in the print edition. And, and I told my agent, I said, I want to read the audible version of it because it was read by somebody else, a professional voice and it wasn't available outside North America.

[00:01:00] So, we canceled an old contract, got a new contract. I went to New York and read it. I said about six years ago, and it had been out for over 15 years. So I probably really hadn't read it cover to cover since it was published. Yeah. I'd read it, way too many times while writing it. And then, so I'm reading it about six years ago to do the audible version and I'm going, This is good.

I like this. I'm proud. And they go and, and yeah, I've forgotten about that. Oh yeah. And I've slipped back there. Oh, I'm doing that again. And so I was able to kind of see my own self, 'cause I tell people, no more Mr. Nice guys autobiographical, mm-Hmm. . It's my story. I just use other people to tell my story.

Mm-Hmm. . So, yeah. I, I, I like hearing that, that it, it's. It had a big impact on people's lives because, writing it and just the work around it's had a big impact on my life too. 

Todd Zemek: I think that's how, deeper therapy works is that we continue to revisit stuff. And it's something I see a lot in psychologists is if they do [00:02:00] make any mention of themselves, it's retrospectively.

Yeah, I went through that and I'm fine now, but very few people sort of turn up and own the fact that, and I'm still working on this. Yeah, we, we can dive into psychologists. Yeah. I remember when I opened my private practice. So we're talking like 1988 when I first opened my first private practice.

Dr Robert Glover: And I was new. I didn't know how to build a business, didn't know how to get established. So, I went to a lot of meetings with other psychologists and counselors and therapists. And it was funny because almost everybody I talked to, how are you doing? How's your practice going? Great, great.

It's going great. Everything's good. And I'm thinking, after a while I got, that can't all be true. Not everybody's practices are going great. They're doing great because doing anything of meaning is hard work and has ups and downs to it and has struggles and challenges.

And so I, I learned early on, maybe not trust psychologists so much in their self report. Yeah. 

Todd Zemek: I can see that. I think the training [00:03:00] sort of takes part of our humanity away, which is one of the ironies it's because the message is it's not about you. It's about science. So it's a virtue for you to reduce your presence.

And so, 

Dr Robert Glover: yeah, I don't know if I got so much of that, but you know, I think kind of what I got, because my doctorate's in marriage and family therapy and, and not so much psychology, but still, we're, we're, we're, we're, we're family members. And what I realized is after getting a PhD in marriage and family therapy, I actually knew almost nothing about how to have a good marriage and good relationship, or even build a business around being a marriage, family therapist.

So anyway, I don't know how we got off on psychologists and therapists, but you know, we might as well talk about ourselves for a little bit. Why not? Why not? I guess, but in terms of stories, that's, that's really interesting. And the, the power of learning through that's going to be really helpful for the guys listening.

Todd Zemek: In the preface of your book, you actually start there and you say, I didn't set out to write a [00:04:00] book. I'd begun therapy to work on issues in my marriage. And I couldn't figure out why being such a nice guy didn't make my wife happy and make them want to have sex with me. So how did that, that's how it started.

So a lot of guys listening right now are actually starting therapy themselves, either in a, in a relationship or wanting to work on themselves so they can have healthy relationships. Can you recall that therapy? Okay. What was that? 

Dr Robert Glover: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah very much So, and you know a lot of times people ask me when do people tend to find my work or no more Mr.

Nice guy and I go often it's in some pain point around relationship Either they've been single for a long time and they can't seem to, get into a relationship. Maybe they don't know how to talk to women, how to date. Maybe they're in a relationship, but it's not going in the ways they thought it would.

Maybe it's at the crisis stage where, they're talking divorce, breakup. And so that is when a lot of [00:05:00] people go looking for help is when relationship things just are not working all that well. And kind of my situation, I was about two years, maybe two, three years into my second marriage. And I don't think at that point I even realized how bad it was, I knew, I had a knowing that it was bad.

And. Just in terms of like, the relationship began, all hot and heavy sexually. And then on our honeymoon, my wife announces, aren't you glad now that we're married? We don't have to pretend to like sex anymore. And then like sex disappeared. That's a long, 

Todd Zemek: long, you don't 

Dr Robert Glover: forget. Yeah.

No, as a line, you don't forget out camping, the mountains and, and she's reading women who love too much on your honeymoon and, and then announces that. And, the problem was. I was, I was indeed the nice guy. And in, in, in part of my own paradigm was, I, I can fix this. It can get better.

Because that's [00:06:00] kind of, I'm kind of almost a perpetual optimist. Well, it can get better, why not? And after 14 years, I realized it wasn't. Even with lots of therapy, believe it or not. Both of us. So what happened is that I, I had, I'd acted, I'd acted out. I'd acted inappropriately in the relationship.

And and then about a year after she found out and was upset and said, you, you need help. Everybody thinks you're such a nice guy, but you're not, you can be passive aggressive. You can hurt me. She said, I'd rather be with an asshole. Cause at least I know an assholes can be an asshole too. What is acting at me?

Well, I I'd, I'd gotten, Too friendly with a friend of hers. It, it didn't end up in consummating sex, but you know. It was in a 

Todd Zemek: marital relationship, 

Dr Robert Glover: a marital. Yeah, we, we, we, I'd gotten kind of caught up and and, and helping her solve some problems. She was also married as well. And it's kind of like, oh, she was having problems.

So we'd talk a lot and kind of maybe sneak off together. And, and, and then I stopped it because, [00:07:00] well, this isn't particularly fulfilling and it's not going to take me. So I stopped it. And about a year later, she told my wife about it. And she was like, To this day, I'm not sure why, but you know, I'm glad she did because then, my then wife said, you, you need help.

And so she said, and they said, you're a sex addict. So, and I'm thinking, well, just because you don't want to have sex, that doesn't make me a sex addict, but so I went to a 12 step group for sex addicts. Oh, wow. Quickly found out I wasn't a sex addict. I wasn't having enough sex to be sex addict.

Had I acted inappropriately seeking validation more than sex. So I, I found out, yeah, I was, I was a validation addict and acted inappropriately seeking validation that I wasn't getting in my marriage. But again, it's kind of like, I don't need, I don't think I even realized, just how, how, how unsuitable the relationship was till, much further down the line.

There's not, there's no blame in that. It's just like, It's like, again, I had this superpower. I can fix everything. I can talk people down, through, over. I can, it's what I'd done [00:08:00] with my father, it's what I'd done with my mother. So here I was, and already with a PhD in marriage and family therapy, and never had been to therapy.

Mm hmm. Ever. Mm hmm. I think I'd gone to one therapy session because it was required for a class. Mm hmm. And so, I landed in this 12 step group and I loved it. For the first time in my life, I began just revealing myself. I'd never, I'd never done that. Never, never was vulnerable. Never let people know things about me that, might, might get a negative reaction.

Mm hmm. I got with a therapist and started learning about boundaries and, and just started doing therapy. You know working on me got into a men's group and was in that for several years So i'm really grateful for the whole chain of events, you know that I act out over here It gets found out I get confronted I'm told i'm thinking I don't I don't need help But you know I went and and it would just it began a chain of events that led to you know Me looking at this nice guy syndrome in myself As a marriage [00:09:00] therapist, I started noticing that the men were coming to me, often with a wife or girlfriend, saying the same things I said, I'm a nice guy.

I'm one of the nicest guys you'll ever meet. I treat her better than her ex. I'm raising her kids. I give her everything she wants. She's never good enough. When's it gonna be my turn? How come she's mad all the time? How come she never wants to have sex anymore? And then, then there were the single guys that it took me a little bit to connect the dots.

But in the same way they're saying, i've got lots of female friends. They all think i'm great I listen to talk about their problems. I help them out They tell me some woman's going to be so lucky to have me someday, but they don't want to be with me So I I started a no more. Mr Nice guy men's group and then just started writing some some just lessons or chapters about what I was learning about me Where I thought maybe nice guy syndrome came from, the faulty paradigm or roadmap that's beneath it.

How to be more effective in getting what we want, need, and so I just kept writing and writing and over a period [00:10:00] of years, a lot of my clients and their wives were saying, you should write a book, this could be a bestseller. There's a lot of people that need this. So I did just keep writing and eventually it did become a book.

Todd Zemek: So we'll, we'll get into this syndrome and the, and the path forward. I do see that one of the things that is so valuable is the right type of group. So what was your experience? Was it, did you have good fortune, the first group that you went to that you clicked with? 

Dr Robert Glover: I, I, I've been fortunate there's something just about what I've needed has shown up when I needed it.

And, and whatever you attribute that to, but I feel fortunate because even like going to that 12 step group it was probably the wrong place for me to be, probably it was all guys though. So it was kind of like my first men's group because, it was around sex addiction and it was a really.

Kind of a rigid conservative brand of, of a sex addicts group, like anything outside of, of [00:11:00] heterosexual marriage was, was, acting out. And I, and I found later on another 12 step group that where you kind of define your own sobriety rather than, it was too much similar to my own conservative Christian upbringing.

But. It was still awesome in that even though once I realized, okay, this probably isn't the right group for me to be in, I'm still in a group all with men. And, and it was kind of hardcore because these guys had some gnarly shit going on in their lives. Yeah, it probably 

Todd Zemek: says something about you that you were being a good boy by doing what you were told.

Dr Robert Glover: When, when I was, I went and did what I, I don't think, I don't think anybody's ever pointed that out exactly that clearly it was, I thought, okay, if I want to keep my marriage, I've got to go to a sex addicts group because my wife says I'm a sex addict. I get there and realize again that I wasn't. But the group met like it is five or 6am in the morning.

And, once a week, I [00:12:00] actually looked forward to getting up and going because for the first time in my life, again, I was vulnerable. I was revealing me, things I thought, felt, done, felt shame, embarrassment about. I started learning about shame, releasing shame. So even if it wasn't the perfect group for me and, and what I was dealing with, it was perfect in that for the first time in my life, I opened up.

And, and I trusted, and I revealed, and then like I said, then a therapist led to there, and then a friend of mine said, well, I'm in this other men's group with a, a woman psychologist who's written some books about sexual shame, and I go, sign me up. And then, so I got into that group, and, but later on, yeah. I, I, I tried another group or two along the way that didn't click near as well, but then about six, seven years ago kind of, in a, in a little different situation in life, but it just gotten into a, a, a new marriage.

And we're having a few struggles and I I thought I don't want to [00:13:00] fall into any of my old patterns I thought I need the support of the men's group again and just happened to mention at a workshop I was leading that this was something I needed to add to my life and when the guy said well One of the men there said let me tell you about this this program I'm in and you know the guy that studied with david data for many years and we have these retreats and we do this I go sign me up And so I did that for five years just because You Well, number one, I just like the connection with men.

It was all, it was a men's program up to times 50, 60 guys in the program at a time. We did have retreats, just, just the connection I felt. And seeing all the ways that it impacted my life, improved my life, made my relationship better, gave me better skills for my relationship. And so I just happened often to land in a place that was really just what I needed.

To work on whatever I needed to be working on at that stage of my life. It 

Todd Zemek: seems like such an a [00:14:00] vital thing in order to stabilize men, to have healthy relationships with women. We need some sort of community with other guys. We need some bit of a tribal connection with other guys. 

Dr Robert Glover: Yeah, you're preaching to the choir on that when I was doing marriage and family therapy for years Couple would walk into my office and first thing I would say first session Both of you need good same sex friends as the foundation of your relationship Women often will keep their friends In relationship men tend to let them go.

I don't know if it's a priority issue a guilt issue You know because we already we've got our work usually it keeps us busy And then we want to pay attention to our relationship and give it time and then maybe if kids come along They're doing and and then if every other guy is doing the same thing Men just tend to let go of the bonds they have with men at the time They need them the most in relationship and then it's usually when the relationship starts breaking down You [00:15:00] And they have no one to talk to, no one to turn to, and then maybe it does turn, lead to separation or divorce.

And all of a sudden they're looking around going, I don't have any friends. The only guy friends I had are parts of a couple that probably my wife introduced me to somewhere along the way. And now that we're breaking up, the couple isn't sure if they can still, be friends with both of them. It doesn't ever get said quite that clearly, but it's such a common pattern.

And that's when men often. Going through a split of a relationship is a crisis enough as it is. And then we realize we've got no support system. And as a result, 

Todd Zemek: we're, we're, we're over investing in that relationship, which makes it more fragile. Yeah. So when I mentioned that to guys, often they're, they're kind of, they look at me quizzically as if like, that's not what I'm here for.

Well, I don't want to go and hug some trees with a group of hippies. And I can relate with that. Like I, I was seeing a therapist and he said, look, I think you need some, some decent guys [00:16:00] around you. And I said, Oh, I've got friends, but I was a headline guy. I would share the headlines with my friends. And not like that, not much in the way of details.

So I tried a few groups and one of them was just a codependent complaining group which 

Dr Robert Glover: I went to, I went to one of those, I went to one of those, they called it, they called it love and sex addicts anonymous. And I went to it. And all the women were there complaining about the bad men in their life.

And I go, I've been listening to this since I was two years old with my mother complaining about my bad dad. I don't think I need to go to another group to listen to more women complaining about their bad relationships. Cause my tendency is I can fix that. I can fix that. I can be the good guy. I can be the good guy.

Yeah. Pick me, pick me. I go, I don't need that. No, no, I 

Todd Zemek: bet, I bet, but similarly, just, just guys sitting around and whining. That's not, that's not helpful either. So I tried a few other, other groups and then one of them was like really confronting. It got me in contact with some of my trauma in front of other [00:17:00] guys.

And so actively dissociating in front of these guys. And I was known in the group that that's part of my experience. And I'd never, never had that before. Yeah. The result of that, I kind of assimilated the fact that it's okay for me to be me more fully to be seen, even if I'm uncontrollable, even if I'm not articulate, even if I'm a bit of a mess and I'm not really present, and it really changed the way I was turning up with other, other guys in my life.

And it wasn't a coincidence that that is when my relationship with women started to change. 

Dr Robert Glover: And I mean it's. It's a coincidence. 

Todd Zemek: Previously, I was definitely skewed to having more friendships slash blurry boundary relationships with women. Part of that instantly dropped away. 

Dr Robert Glover: Yeah. I, it's, it's funny once a man truly develops a depth of connection with men.

And I don't mean this in a dismissive, demeaning way whatsoever, but it's amazing how uninteresting [00:18:00] relationships with women start for you. It's kind of like, this doesn't even draw me or attract me anymore because there's a depth of vulnerability and connection with men that honestly, and again, I don't mean this to be dismeaning, I don't think you can have it with a woman.

With a, with a woman, no matter who the woman is, there's always an unconscious sexual agenda. And if there's an unconscious sexual agenda, there's a not wanting to do anything that will lead to disapproval. Or, or, or rejection or being thought of as, as bad with men, that's not there. We can just go be ourselves, we can bring up our shadow and bring up our dark side We can we can be an ass, you know We can be a dick and and they'll just say you're being an ass you're being a dick and but you know She keep on loving each other right now that doesn't crumble So the most loved I've ever felt has been in the connection with men and in usually in context where you are going [00:19:00] through powerful challenges together and being vulnerable, not as vulnerable in a talking way, but vulnerable in, in, putting yourself into an exercise or a practice or some kind of struggle that you don't know what's going to come up or how it's going to look.

That's powerful. And that really bonds men. And it's probably, a lot like the masculine initiation, our ancestors gone through for hundreds of thousands of millions of years. Of, of going out, getting comfortable, being uncomfortable with a band of men who've been through the same process themselves and know how to, how to lead, a younger man through it.

That changes our whole, the whole masculine relationship with women, it just changes. I think for the better, but it changes it. 

Todd Zemek: So something really valuable about being able to have connections where we take sex out of the equation. So there's something really powerful about that. If we just drilled down on that just for one moment, can [00:20:00] we be friends that when Harry met Sally question, 

Dr Robert Glover: probably, probably, I, I think probably a number of people have had friendships.

Yeah. That that began, maybe more like, the the the jerry seinfeld and the The julia dreyfus character in seinfeld, they tried it for a period to to be boyfriend girlfriend It just never worked, but you know, they've been friends for a long time I I actually think that maybe like you make a friend in high school or college and and Maybe there's never the the sexual tension or sexual draw, but you just click you connect You come into each other's lives at an important time Yeah.

I think that can probably, be a genuine friendship. 

Todd Zemek: But that's probably probably different to the nice guy syndrome where there are emotional fears or there is deniable, deniable erotic current 

Dr Robert Glover: running underneath it. Yeah, and that, that is often the case, which is, is kind of, I, I did a an interview a few weeks ago [00:21:00] with a, a woman who talks about infidelity in relationships and basically, not normalizing it, but taking the shame out of it and letting people just tell their stories about it and, find healing and, and so I, I came on as more of like the expert and I said, yeah, I've cheated and I've been cheated on.

Yeah. Really? And then she was actually really surprised To say you mean nice guys cheat and I go yeah all the time Which if you think about it pretty much everything a nice guy does is built around what I call covert contracts, you know They're in the book We're, we're giving to get and it's, I'll do this and this will happen.

And much of it is, I will, nice guy, seductions. I'll, I'll, I'll hang around you. I'll listen to you talk about your problems. I'll listen to you talk about your ex that treats you bad that you keep going back to, I'll, I'll make your car payment for you. I help you move. I help your sister move.

All with his covert contract. You'll appreciate me value me And if I hide my sexual agenda pretend like i'm not [00:22:00] like the other guys You might want to take your clothes off with me. That doesn't get spoken. It's covert So it makes sense that if the whole way that most nice guys actually begin any relationship Is covert like i'm trying to impress you So that you will value me back and then desire me in some way that that can even be our friendships, right?

but especially You know relationships with the opposite sex and then so when we're not getting valued or desired enough in our core relationships We go looking at for that somewhere else But it's always covert. I, I talk about it in No More Mr. Nice Guy. He said, nice guys can do a lot of flirting without fucking.

And so yeah, give me validation, think I'm, think, think I'm good enough that you'd want to sleep with me, but we won't actually cross that line because that, I couldn't justify that I'm still a nice guy. But all that sexual energy is still there. And what, what actually I've seen happen a lot of times is the woman ends up getting like really hurt maybe even [00:23:00] pissed off Because the guy's been sending all kinds of signals like, you know There's something here that that could happen and then when she opens to that he's gone.

He's the one going. Oh, We're just friends So it it it Nice guys do a lot of covert things, doing one thing, trying to get this thing. So like, I'll pay attention to you and listen to you talk, so that you'll approve of me and value me and think I'm better than other men. Or I'll hide my sexual agenda, so that you'll feel safe enough to To, be sexually open with him.

So there's a lot of just indirect covert stuff. 

Todd Zemek: It was definitely the story of my twenties. That was my exclusives. 

Dr Robert Glover: That was your 

Todd Zemek: strategy. In my twenties. Yeah. Believe it or not, it didn't work that 

Dr Robert Glover: well. It doesn't work at all. That's right. Sometimes you actually do, end up, hooking up getting and relay.

I mean, it, it can lead, I guess, every, You But it's prior to my present wife, [00:24:00] every other relationship I've been privacy previously started with that kind of nice guy seduction, but then it's from the very beginning, then you've got a relationship built on this really kind of skewed foundation almost, in no more Mr.

Nice guy. I don't use the word codependency. That was intentional, but it is codependency or another term. I really like even better. It's called borrowed functioning. I get my sense of value from my sense of connection with another person, right? I borrow my function of being the rescuer, the good person, the, the, whatever by you needing rescued or, your trauma that I'm going to come make all that better.

And, and so we do tend to get attracted to people who have a certain amount of trauma or neediness or instability in their lives. Because our borrowed functioning says, I can fix that, I can help that, I can make it better, she'll approve of me, I'll get it better, and then she'll be a great girlfriend.

Except often it never does get better, because, that's [00:25:00] just their nature to be in a traumatic state. And there's also, the nice guy really can't risk the person getting better, because then we're out of a job, because we don't have anything to borrow the functioning anymore. So while we're being codependent, going, let me help you, let me serve you, let me fix you, let me get you better.

Oh, but don't get better, because then, I don't have a role in this that feels familiar to you. So 

Todd Zemek: there's only two options, it either peters out, or we get locked in some trauma bonding. 

Dr Robert Glover: And as, as, as, I love that you, you mentioned that term, because very few people use that term or that concept.

And I, I, I, I saw, I think it was in Patrick Karn's book, where he used that term, trauma bonding, but I haven't seen it in many other places. But I talk quite a bit about trauma, Drama bonding, it's kind of hard to divide, make the distinction Do we have this sick little almost addictive connection built around?

Dopamine adrenaline [00:26:00] cortisol, you know reliving childhood trauma borrowed functioning, you know Is it is because all the drama or is because it actually has become traumatic in itself and it can't I think I think my Second marriage indeed was a trauma bonded relationship and it's just as hard to quit as any drug Talking about the groups when I split with my second wife I knew it would be so easy for me just to slip back into those patterns with her.

I started going back to the 12 steps group skin. I was going to like two, three, four meetings a week Just to have kind of you know a men's group To where I could go and make her my inner circle like an addict does with alcohol with drugs with gambling Whatever my inner circle. I don't go there. I don't call her up ask her how she's doing I don't go to coffee with her.

I don't have warm friendly conversations I I don't go there because that trauma bonded relationship was just so, so [00:27:00] embedded in my nervous system. Then once I'd gotten out the door, I thought, I don't want to go get back in that. And go through that same struggle of having to get out that door again. So yeah, the trauma bonded relationship can be so intense.

And I'm, there's certain things I'm surprised that don't get talked more about in the psychological world of relationship. That's one of them, trauma and drama bonded relationships. But another one's what, around fusion and differentiation. Of how relationships tend to fuse you mentioned when when a guy loses all of his friends Then he expects the partner to be everything for him.

That's emotional fusion has really old ties in our evolutionary history But it's when we just give up ourself for part of the whole part of the tribe You know might think of it like the the matrix or the borg in the star trek, movies Sacrifice you for the well being of the tribe and the tribe then You know, has a better chance of surviving to take care of you.

But often we do that in relationship, [00:28:00] we lose, we, well, most of us never learn to be differentiated, i. e. be able to ask ourselves, what do I want? What's important to me? Live a life on our terms and then form a differentiated relationship with a partner. Most relationships in Western and Eastern culture are emotionally, sexually, Fused at all levels.

Well, okay, I'm going to put the handcuff on my wrist, give you the other side of the handcuff, hand you the key, and say you have control of my life because we decided to be sexually exclusive. And that's, that's emotional fusion. But that doesn't get talked much about either. So there's certain things that surprise me.

So I was thrilled you mentioned trauma bonded relationships. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. 

Todd Zemek: And in terms of individuating it's something that has, I mean, that's a shameful thing for a nice guy in terms of their model. It's good for me to be focused on you. That's my, so therefore it must be bad to be focused on me.

And it must be bad if I sustain that focus and it must be bad if it's making you [00:29:00] uncomfortable when it's bringing up uncertainty. 

Dr Robert Glover: Oh, you understand this stuff. You get it. Exactly. All of that. The second ever television interview I ever did before night, no more Mr. Nice guys even published. And it's actually the reason it got published.

Published in print is that I, I done a lot of hustling in my local media where I lived in Seattle, Washington, and a couple of local newspapers ran articles about me in the 

Todd Zemek: book. I'm sorry to interrupt, but when you, when you talk about being a therapist in Seattle, I can't help, but think of Frazier 

Dr Robert Glover: Crane.

Well, of course, you can't help but think of a therapist in seattle him and his brother both in seattle. I'm a fan I'm 

Todd Zemek: a fan of you both. Yeah. Yeah, 

Dr Robert Glover: I I I love that show, too and so so so, the the local media picked up the book and then it went national media in the u. s And and so I did a interview on fox news and then I I got invitation to go on the bill o'reilly show I didn't even know who bill o'reilly was Because I didn't watch bill o'reilly I didn't watch news.

I didn't watch fox news, but so I [00:30:00] found out you know who he was I so that's my second ever television, he's he's long since fallen from grace on fox But he he was a big deal there for a long time So, you know i'm i'm in this room in a in a booth studio booth in seattle It's dark. There's a camera in the corner.

There's no monitor. I can't, I don't know what anybody's seen. And I have to just look at the camera. Like I'm having a warm conversation, like with this blue dot on my camera, on the top of my computer, right? I have to act like that's a real life person. And if you look away, you look shifty, right? So I, somehow, I don't think he, anybody informed him why he was interviewing me.

His producer just set it up and I don't, I don't know how we got into it, but he started talking about this thing about self care and making your needs a priority. What's that about? And, and I go, well, healthy adult people take accountability and responsibility for getting their needs met.

He goes, oh, that, that's crazy. Or that's, he said, and, and he said, I, he started talking that down. I said, Bill, who fed you this morning? What are you talking about? I said, who, [00:31:00] who, who cut up your breakfast and put it in your mouth this morning? Well, I did. Why? And he goes, okay, that's you taking care of you, making yourself a priority by feeding yourself breakfast.

And he goes, that's crazy. Jesus is going to strike you down. And I'm going, this is national news and and I, and I, I held it, together. Well, considering, I've never done anything like this. And then I get an email the next day from my agent saying that Barnes and Noble has offered me a contract because of how well I handled Bill O'Reilly.

So that's why we're talking today because of that interview. Got so, but, but yeah, that concept really makes nice guys uncomfortable when I talk about putting yourself first, making your needs a priority. Mm-Hmm. They get that deer in the headlight looks like, oh no, I might die. Mm-Hmm. Somebody might kill me.

I might, I might be a bad person. Mm-Hmm. And that is so skewed. Because how can you take care of anybody else's needs if your needs are not adequately met? [00:32:00] Mm. And as adults, our parents were put here when we were children to help us get our needs met, but their job's done how, however, poorly or well they did it, their job's done.

So your your job, your job isn't to make sure I get my needs met. My job isn't to make sure, my job is to make sure I get my needs met. And if that involves asking you to help. Great. And if you're up for that, great. And vice versa. But we're still responsible. But just saying that to a nice guy, you really do get the deer in the headlight looks like, oh no, I'm in trouble.

And, and so that's why we do form those, those codependent relationships. I'll meet all your needs, covert contract. And then you'll read my mind and meet all my needs. Well, nobody else can read our mind. Nobody else can meet all our needs and these fused relationships. Like we've said, we don't have guy friends.

We don't have other resources. We turn to this woman and say, it's your job here. Make sure I'm happy, make sure my needs are met, make sure everything, but we don't even say that. [00:33:00] We just kind of stand there and go, I'm taking care of you. How come you're not taking care of me? And maybe we pick them because they're not very good at even taking care of themselves.

How does it take care of us? There's an 

Todd Zemek: assumption that surely it'll come back around. 

Dr Robert Glover: Surely. Surely. That, that, that's why every guy that was coming to me for therapy back years ago was saying, I don't know. I give and I get, when's it going to be my turn? We all had that same paradigm. And I go, how could it be?

I'm not, I'm not the only one that has this paradigm that if I just give enough, it'll come back around. 

Todd Zemek: There's this silent resentment that starts to build and confuse a lot of it. And then why not? Why am I continuing to be, be criticized? And then we can act out. I love that story about Bill O'Reilly. I mean, talking about having different values, From, from the outset, that's hilarious for anyone who doesn't know who he is.

He's a, a quite a conservative shock jock if you, if you, so, yeah, 

Dr Robert Glover: work for a Murdoch don't, new news stations. So, 

Todd Zemek: no, no more. Yeah. [00:34:00] Yeah. The idea of pairing you two together is quite funny. So you were able to hold your own under pressure rather than collapse. And I think that nice guys tend to not have the bandwidth.

Yeah. In terms of accommodating, there is something that happens when there's some intensity that comes in and then we collapse as a, as a virtue. So for a lot of guys, they don't really have much insight into this in the, in the beginning. And so they don't have much dynamic connection with themselves, with others or the world.

And they tend to be a little bit more prone to this mysterious depression. Might not be clinical depression, but there's this this thymic of, I don't know, and there's, they're sort of singing the blues in the background and it's just a romantic mystery why 

Dr Robert Glover: I feel. That's a great way to put it, romantic mystery.

And and I, and I talk about that, that most nice guys, again, You can't say every nice guy is exactly the same and I learned that really quickly when working with nice guys. First I [00:35:00] thought maybe they're all just like me. We're all, we're all different. We all have our own patterns, our own family experience, our own life experience, our own temperament.

But, but there are some commonalities and one of them is kind of that low grade depression. We're not really sure why. I mean we get a few ups if maybe we get a girl to like us or we have some success. but I say often the nice guys are good at being good, but not great at being great. You don't see a lot of nice guys that are just up hitting it out of the park.

Just, really, performing at top levels. Now, nice guy syndrome really works against that. The codependency drains you, the, the covert contracts, you're not getting your own bucket filled. So you don't really, you're, you're going on, you're, you're trying to drive a car with an empty tank. And, and, and we don't know why.

Because most of us. Are following the rules that we thought we'd been taught about how to be a good guy, right? Whether we learned that in family, we learned it in church We learned it by [00:36:00] trying to be different from the bad men or nowadays I listen to so many younger nice guys who say their father was a nice guy and all that really their dads taught them was how Try not to piss off your mother because that's what the dads were trying not to do is piss off the boy's mother so Most nice guys And, and often they have a mix of relief.

And, and, and maybe rage when all of a sudden they read No More Mr. Nice Guy and go, wait a minute. I was following the rules, but I was lied to. These aren't really the rules. There's no rules that say, if I'm good, I'll be blessed and people will love me and I'll get laid a lot. There's no rules that say that.

But we think that, those covert contracts, if I'm a good guy, it'll be liked and loved. If I do everything right, I'll have a smooth problem free world. If I give to you, you'll give to me back. We think those are the rules. And then when we find out that nobody else knows about those rules, right?

The [00:37:00] rest of the world, all the women out there, they don't know about the rules, but we're out there following them like everybody read the same book. So when we actually find out that those Aren't the rules that, that actually we either inaccurately internalized that as young children or actually believed what we were actually told, be this way, be different from your father, be a good Christian, don't have sex, all, whatever it was.

Or, or all the girls complaining in junior high. Don't be like those jerks. All right, I won't be like the jerks. But then they still go back to the jerks. So we thought we were doing it right. So when we find out that those aren't the rules and that there's a different way, if it can be really liberating, it's just like guys write me all the time.

How do you know me so well? Have you been following me around? You have cameras on me. You describe my life. And they say, and you saved my life. Not just you changed my life, you saved it. I get so many emails from guys saying I've read multiple self help books. Yours was the first book that really spoke to what was happening to me.

[00:38:00] Well you do, you do speak to the inner world as much as to the relational world. As, as well. So what, 

talking about shame, with such a core piece, the anxiety that we have, our self image, the beliefs we have. And so, yeah, there can be this like both awakening. Yeah, I found the truth, but then also perhaps a lot of anger.

And resentment, you're like, you mean I've been, how come it took me 25 years to find this out 45 years, 65 years to get the truth about this. And so guys can go through, some, some pretty powerful emotional states just in this waking up. But I tell you what. You come alive, you come out of that lethargy, that depression, that, that, that those self limiting beliefs at all.

I'll never get a woman or I'll never amount to anything, or I'm not that good. Or you can, you actually start breaking out of that stuff. There's been like, just, walking around, like dragging an anchor behind you, everywhere you go. 

Todd Zemek: Or if you're in a relationship [00:39:00] that, feeling that pessimism or just these bad jokes about being, resigned to this is what marriage is.

Yeah. 

Dr Robert Glover: Yeah. Yeah. Just go along to get along. Happy wife, happy life. If she's in a good mood. Okay. That'll, that'll be. Yeah. That's, that's all fine. So 

Todd Zemek: once these guys start to, whether it was read your book or that something has snapped and now they're looking through the world through different, a different lens, how do they differentiate?

So in your book, the chapters that you, you spell out is learning to please yourself. Yeah. Learning to make your needs a priority. How do guys do this? And what is the challenges that they face as they, again, as they sustain this, not as a news resolution, but as a new way of being, 

Dr Robert Glover: again, just from your questions, I know, I know what exactly, what you're talking about.

When, when I, when I was back in a private practice years ago, I'm sitting in my office and I'm talking to a guy, it might even be in a group, but it might be one of them. And so we start talking about them making their needs a [00:40:00] priority and guys will say, I have no idea what that even looks like.

Yeah. 

Todd Zemek: I get that. I've heard that so many times. I didn't even know I 

Dr Robert Glover: had needs. Needs. Yeah. And, and that's one thing that is, is so, I guess, ironic about these covert contracts that we have, I'll do this for you and in return, you'll do this for me, but I actually won't let you do it. Because I feel too uncomfortable even having needs.

Cause all of you see that I have a need, you'll think I'm bad or I'll owe you, or, you'll leave me if you think I have a need. It is, it is 

Todd Zemek: quite childish. I mean, just poetically from an analytic perspective, if we look at an oral personality and again, I'm not taking this literally, but the idea is that the child is dependent upon the parent.

And at that stage, the child doesn't even have teeth. So they're not going to be able to digest stuff by themselves. They're just utterly dependent. So there is that sort of subconscious idea that, well, I should just be fed. If I'm doing all this [00:41:00] work, it should just come to me 

Dr Robert Glover: magically. And one of the, the, we're kind of bouncing around a little bit here and we'll come back to making our, getting our needs met, how to do it.

One of the comments I make about a lot of men, about nice guys, a lot of men I work with, and especially the younger I get, you get down to the millennials, you get down to the, the younger men, even younger than that. I say so many of them are still living in the nursery. They really do have this peter pan view of the world in that, Oh, I should be able to just play video games surf the internet jack off to porn smoke dope, binge on netflix You know hang out with a crowd of women that there's no possibility of having sex with any of them you know, I could even just like just stay in my room all the time and and and And things should work, things should click, things should happen for me.

Or, I'll just like, build a click funnel and make a million dollars on selling shit on the internet. And then you realize, that's actually hard work, and, and so, I say to a lot of men, because they've never had any kind of masculine [00:42:00] initiation, they are still just little boys hanging out in the nursery, looking for feminine approval and validation.

or not even bothering. I'll just be, men going my own way. I'll just be an incel. I'll just be red pill and just blame women for everything. And there's no growing up in any of that. Now, in a way, I don't blame any individual man for that. You can't. I, I kind of, if there's a blame and I'm not big into victim or blame stuff, but you know, throughout all of human history, older men initiated younger men into the scary world of the masculine.

How to go get comfortable feeling uncomfortable, how to face fear, how to deal with challenge, how to learn masterful skill sets to survive in the world, how to interact with women. And, and all of that stuff got taught to us up until about the last 60 or 70 years. And all of a sudden, young boys quit being initiated by their fathers.

Even if you go back pre World War II, [00:43:00] most families were still either living agrarian, or beginning. To, move towards the cities. But even so, the boys usually still spent most of their time with men. Maybe their fathers, cousins, uncles, grandfathers. After World War II, it's just like the dads just got completely taken away from the boys.

And boys have been left on their own. For the last, let's say, going on a hundred years. Boys have been left on their own to grow up into men, and so we grow up into these passive, pleasing, nice guys that just go okay, I'll go along to get along, I won't rock the boat, I won't take any risk, I won't stand out too much, I won't draw too much of a spotlight, and And because no, they've not been taught how to live up to the best version of themselves.

Now, the irony or paradox or challenge is to really live our best lives. We have to make our needs a [00:44:00] priority. We have to make our needs and wants a priority. And I used to sit in my office, I'd say, I'd hand a guy a legal pad and a pen and say, let's just start making a list of where you can start making your needs and wants a priority.

And so many guys have just stared at, they go, I don't even know where to start. And I go okay, I know, most guys don't. And I, and so as a starting point, I would often say, what'd you like doing as a kid? Oh, riding my bike, climbing trees, building forts out in the woods, playing soccer, doing Legos.

I go, okay, write those down, write them down. How about we just pick one of those and go do it? Like go ride a bike, go build some legos. Why not? Why not? Because, and I'll ask them often, why'd you quit doing those things? Oh, I don't know. I guess I just grew up or, got interested in other things or kind of felt like I had to quit doing those things.

And it seems like at about at that stage of life, Boys quit learning [00:45:00] how to make themselves a priority and then for what happens with a lot of adolescents and a lot of men The only real way they get their needs met is in secret looking at porn And it's kind of like all their needs and wants get funneled into this secret thing of looking at porn It's the only thing that feels like this is mine.

Nobody can take it away from me It's that thing that I fill my bucket with and it's not a predictable particularly Healthy way to fill our buckets But it's kind of, that's like, that's like a lot of, all that a lot of men are left with in terms of how can I consciously get some of my own needs met. And because they've not been taught how to do that in a healthier way.

And again, I'll put that responsibility, on the older generations of men that have not helped the younger generations of men do that. Whether it's father and son, whether it's something more organized than that. But yeah, how's a boy going to learn how to be a man if a man doesn't teach him? 

Todd Zemek: I'm glad you mentioned the porn as a way of [00:46:00] soothing.

And that men have very few options in terms of, of, of their, their needs in general. But you know, who, who do I turn to, where, where do I turn? And so the, the pursuit of, idealized sexual experiences. Take up a lot of room. A lot of the guys that I work with, I'll ask have you ever been loved?

And half of them will say no. And half of them will say, what do you mean? 

Dr Robert Glover: Love 

Todd Zemek: that. And then of the ones that say, well, of the ones that say, oh, well, you, well, yeah, I have I'll, I'll ask, how. And have you been loved for the real you and all of them go, Oh, hell no. There's this anxious laughter of, Oh, fuck no, 

Dr Robert Glover: no.

It's interesting that I, yeah, I agree with you a hundred percent. When I got divorced in my late forties and got out in the dating world, And started dating and having shed kind of my nice guy approach to [00:47:00] meeting women and and had success and guys started asking me to Teach them what I was doing.

I'm not a dating guru, I I've always sucked at dating, but I've gotten good at it and And, as these guys, were asking me, so I'd teach them, skills for interacting with women. And the main thing I would teach, I would keep saying, be yourself. Be yourself. Don't hold you back.

Don't hide you. Act on impulse. Blurt. Just go with you. Go with you. Lead with you. And guys, the answer always, well, being myself doesn't seem to be working all so well. And I started asking them, how many women have you really let see the real you? How often have you let you see the real you?

And that's where I, I go back to men and groups of men. And you and I have been talking about when you go and get vulnerable within a group of men. Let them see the things about them that you don't normally let people see. When that's why I love working with men in groups and why I think men do well in groups as a [00:48:00] therapist.

If I worked one on one with a guy, just like you and I, we're going to get kind of heady. We're going to talk about intellectual ideas, right? That's two guys together. Now, if we were out having a real experience together and bring another guy or two or some real world events in all of a sudden, Who we are start showing up more or how we connect how we deal with fear You know what we do with our anxieties how we hide our shame how we try to fit in that starts showing up and now that can be observed and commented on and Illustrated and put a spotlight and and brought out and worked with where'd that come from?

How's it serving us might there be more effective ways to do like when I told you I joined that men's program six years ago It probably took me into my second year before I really got comfortable with how I even fit in with a group of men. I mean, because I hadn't been in a large group of men where I had to find my [00:49:00] place in that group.

And how do I just be me in that rather than, pardon me, I don't want to go be Dr. Glover there. My book was on the coach's reading list. So, and probably half the guys in the program had no clue who I was. Half, maybe half did. And Before the program is up, probably everybody did kind of figure that out one way or another, but I just wanted to be me.

Right. You had 

Todd Zemek: a chance to drop the role a little bit. I'm glad for the guys out there that it's not the second session where you dropped the role. It was the second year. People's expectations are that I'm going to smash this relational stuff. I'm going to do all of my defenses. And it's like, that's not how 

Dr Robert Glover: it works.

To not just use my humor to try to fit in or not kind of stay back to try to fit in or not use, my, how much I, my experience, I know it really just [00:50:00] me going and just being fucking vulnerable and going through the process and just being a guy with guys that took a while. I didn't know how to do it and it was so liberating and now I have so many really close, meaningful conversations.

Friendships with so many men that I can just, call up. I'm, I'm in touch with these guys on, on Signal, on Zoom, all the time. Just because, they're my foundation. But it took work. It took work and it took me showing up and struggling and doing things awkwardly and doing things in my pattern behavior ways that I wasn't aware of until they showed up in the group and they could be commented on.

And now I can, and without shame, I can deal with them and mine and just be the watcher of them now, rather than trying to either make them go away or do it different. I just noticed them now. I mean, how powerful is that to just noticing 

Todd Zemek: So for these guys who Doing [00:51:00] something bad from the old world, doing something wrong from the old operating system, which is engaging with themselves, that that's not selfish.

It's just self connected. And if they don't engage with themselves and how the hell is anyone else going to engage with themselves? Some of the things that's a good point. Some of the things that 

Dr Robert Glover: we're suggesting, somebody know you, if you don't know you, you're not going 

Todd Zemek: to give them a chance, it takes time and it takes detail.

And it takes the ability to sit with the tension and the doubt and the shame. And so ways that we can do that is to read your book and it illuminates the operating system, what we've been trying to do that hasn't worked, and then sets out a new path forward. They can engage with the therapist that they do connect with.

They can get involved in a group and again, individual therapy or group therapy. We need to experiment. It's not necessarily the right one. 

Dr Robert Glover: You don't always, you don't always land in the right place to [00:52:00] first time. That's okay. 

Todd Zemek: So once they've got some of those things in place, what are some of the other activities or milestones, challenges or things that they can actually do?

that are going to be supporting that continued growth. 

Dr Robert Glover: Yeah. My personal markers and they seem to be fairly consistent in the work I've done with thousands of men over the last 30 years. I started out by just going and finding a safe place. And that turned out to be a 12 step group, therapist, later a men's group.

And that seems to be a starting point. I tell guys, you didn't become a nice guy in social isolation. You're not going to recover. You're not going to break out of these patterns in social life just by reading a book. Okay, I got it figured out now. It's in our nervous system, right? It's wired in at a deep level.

And so find that safe place. Then there seems to be the process of beginning to be vulnerable. [00:53:00] To be willing to expose yourself, to have, to get feedback that sometimes stings or kind of hurts, it cuts through your facade. Letting go of things you've been packing around that don't serve you, old beliefs about yourself, about the world.

So there's that releasing of shame. Another then big piece for me was I started realizing how dishonest I was both with myself and the world not just the lies that I told the information I didn't reveal the things I didn't share about me the wants the feelings the fears the Piss off as I didn't show 

Todd Zemek: that's a different definition.

That's a different definition of honesty, isn't it? 

Dr Robert Glover: And and I had to you know, I on on on my integration nation brotherhood call today I I taught a lesson on honesty and it kind of the There are three points to it. Nice guys have an awkward relationship with with honesty and trust and Truthfulness.

I say we're kind of truthy and when I when a nice guy says, I'm I'm pretty honest and I go That's a contradiction of [00:54:00] terms. You can't be pretty honest. You're either honest or you're not honest, right? There's not pretty honest and and it got kind of pregnant, it just doesn't happen. So We have this awkward relationship with the, the truth and with honesty.

And the second point of the lesson was that learning to be honest men is powerful, masculine initiation and is growing up because children lie. All children lie. When, when parents used to bring their kid to me, they're three, they're five, they're seven year old saying, they lie. And I go, that's normal.

Kids lie. They're small. Everybody else is big. They lie to level the playing field. They have to. But, it makes you feel helpless and powerless, so if we, if we grow, if we keep lying, it keeps us in a childlike helplessness and powerlessness, but we can, and the more, the more helpless you feel, the more you lie, and the more you lie, the more helpless you feel, but we can reverse that.

The more we start telling the truth, the more empowered we feel, the more empowered we feel, the more ability we have to tell the truth. And then the third part of the [00:55:00] lesson was that being honest is the easiest way to live, and it's sexy as hell. That being honest is like, that's better than, how many, how many stories did I tell?

How many conversations do I have to rehearse? How many excuses do I have to come up with? No, just This is the truth. It's easy. And it's sexy, because in my experience, women respond really well to honesty. Now, they can handle an uncomfortable truth, but they don't deal well with being lied to. Excuse me. So, that was a core part of that lesson today.

So that was a core piece I started working on. It was really important. Getting honest, whenever I noticed myself cooking up a story, how am I going to tell it? What am I going to leave out? What's, what am I going to fabricate? I'd go to whoever the person that involved and say, I was going to lie to you.

Here is what the, here's the lie I was going to tell you. Wow. And here's the truth. Here's the truth. That, that 

Todd Zemek: was, I haven't, I haven't heard that as a technique before. That's great. 

Dr Robert Glover: It, it, you know what? It's funny. Whenever I'd [00:56:00] find, find myself in lies with people, it. It negatively affects the relationship, but it's funny.

I've never had a relationship go south from telling the truth. Never. Even even in relationships where the women tended to be pretty reactionary. I tell them the truth and it's kind of like, yeah, okay Yeah, how'd you told me, but whenever I hid that truth, oh man, there's all hell to pay for it So it's an easier way to live and it's sexy as hell.

So I started working on my honesty Then I think I started really working on making my needs a priority I, I went through a one year moratorium of giving any gifts, surprises, or nice things to people in my life. Only my kids got, like, gifts. I couldn't give a card, couldn't get, couldn't be in the mall.

Oh, my wife would like that. And any time I had that impulse to give to somebody else, I I had to give myself something. I mean, there's, I did this under the supervision of a trained therapist and my, my then wife knew about it at the time and she was in [00:57:00] favor of it. She said, I can't trust anything you give me.

It has strings attached to it and I can't give you anything because you always turn around and give me something back. And so it, I learned to start making my needs a priority. That, that was, that was challenging. And I still work, I still have to work at saying yes. The people who want to do things for me and give to me.

It's still a challenge I started working on being with men and really building that connection with men and coming to really see the value Of having the connection then I started learning about boundaries. The therapist taught me about boundaries first first session I had with the therapist. She went through a boundary exercise I was in my 30s my second marriage and a phd in marriage and family therapy.

I'd never heard of boundaries So I started learning how to set boundaries. I think from there, I, there's been lots of other, work and change. Probably the, maybe the, this last phase that I'm in is almost kind of more of a spiritual dynamic of it. Yeah, I used to be religious. I have two degrees in religion.

I was a minister for eight years, but I'm not [00:58:00] religious. So I kind of pushed everything that leaned that direction away. And, for the last few years, I've been kind of more in a process of, Kind of leaning into things. I don't know, don't understand, can't explain, maybe can't know, kind of getting more comfortable with, with something, bigger than just this self, this ego.

And so I can't say that's what everybody's journey is going to have, but that's been part of mine. How 

Todd Zemek: old are you, Robert? 68. 68. Okay. So yeah, I was going to ask about that. In terms of how this evolves, can you tell us anything else about that's taking for you and, and to give context, Australia is not as religious a place as, as the U 

Dr Robert Glover: S I know that the U S was founded by religious fanatics who couldn't get along with their neighbors in Europe, Australia was founded by criminals, so, there's a little different energy between 

Todd Zemek: our religion is more about equality.

[00:59:00] That's good. But in terms of how, how this is evolving as a man in your sense of self, very curious about the spiritual component of that and what's happening for you. 

Dr Robert Glover: Yeah. I'm, I'm curious about it too. Cause, and maybe this is exactly how it's supposed to be. I can't say. Because I'm still in the midst of it, but maybe, I don't know if I call it seeking, there might be some seeking in there.

It's more opening, opening to just deeper understanding beyond just what I can like, rationalize up here with the front part of my brain. Opening to to mystery, opening to fate, opening to What's beyond, what, what is, what's always been creation, inspiration, just Kind of opening, just letting things come to me and just trying 

Todd Zemek: to [01:00:00] kind of Is that just happening organically or are there any practices 

Dr Robert Glover: that support that?

Almost dying kind of helped the process. About about six years ago. I got really sick and nobody could figure out what was wrong. Went to doctors here in Mexico, United States. I lost over 30 pounds. Couldn't eat, couldn't sleep, constant stomach pain. I got misdiagnosed, undiagnosed. And finally, a doctor down here in Mexico ran the right test, ran a CAT scan.

It said you have a tumor blocking your small intestine. So we gotta take it out. So I said, well, gimme 48 hours. Let me go hide the porn. Put away everything, that's, that's my running joke. Yeah, I want everybody to know, fine. What, what, what, what are my passwords to, all my accounts and, w to my life insurance and all that.

So, so I had surgery six years ago, and I've been, I've done great ever since. I had another kind of shock about a year and a half ago. COVID blew up my prostate, and I got within just a matter of days, I couldn't [01:01:00] urinate, and ended up having a catheter put in. I had it in for a month, and then had to have a prostate surgery, and I came through that.

Flying as well. I'm in good health. I'm planning on planning on at least another good 20 years doing what I'm doing, but I think having things that wake you up that, yeah, I am going to die. I mean, what, what, what a fortunate thing to have happen to realize you're going to die. And, and, and, Carlos Castaneda spoke of keeping death right, right here at your left side, keeping it close to you.

And in most of the reading, it's funny, almost every book I've read in the last two or three years, I like reading fiction and I've read self help. Almost every book. The, the main core theme comes down to death and I'm thinking, I guess maybe that's what writers write about is death because that's the, that's the human condition.

So I think when you start dealing with death, you, you, you [01:02:00] get curious, how am I living? What, what does come when I die? What, what continues what passes, what manifests, what unmanifests? And it's just been a journey of curiosity. I, I, I did some ayahuasca ceremonies a few months ago.

And before one of them, I said, all right, my intention is I want to understand God and know my eternal soul. And in about five minutes, I got a download and that was it. I go, okay, that's it. It took five minutes to, give me, explain God and my eternal soul. And it was just ocean and waves, water and waves that everything is ocean.

Everything in the cosmos is just ocean. There's water in the ocean, but water is ocean. There's no separate self. Waves manifest, they continue to be ocean, they manifest, unmanifest. And just like, okay, this lifetime, this brief lifetime, just a wave manifesting and still continues to be ocean.

All is ocean. There's, [01:03:00] again, the no separate self just keeps coming back to me. And, that's a piece of Buddhism that, they're, they're Buddhism doesn't even talk about God. I don't, I don't claim to be a Buddhist, but there's no, out there is the creator and we're over here and the creation is separate from the creator.

I think like I grew up Christian, I really think that Jesus was trying to teach people that there is no separate self from, father, son, the brother, his brothers, people. And I think he was teaching that we are both the creator and the created. There is no Lying between that now that gets everybody really uptight because like we only can identify with our ego There's this physical self you're saying that i'm god In and go.

Yeah, actually, but not you the ego part of you is god But the essence of you that is eternal is god. There's no separate god Didn't sit over there and put you over here. It's it's that ocean [01:04:00] Is continuum and water again can manifest in in lots of different ways So I'm really leaning if you'd asked me three years ago Maybe if I believed in fate, I would have said no, I don't think so If you ask me now, do I believe in fate?

I'd say I'm entertaining the idea of it that maybe everything In my life up to now, every moment, every experience, every fuck up even, has been just a perfect alignment to bring me to where I am towards why I'm here, and the work that is in front of me to do. And that's cool. challenging, maybe partly because of my nice guy brain.

Well, who am I? It's partly because thinking that, well, maybe that's kind of ego, like I'm here for some big, significant thing. It also kind of scares me like, well, [01:05:00] What if you start believing that and, and I become kind of cultish, like I'm here to, and you should follow me. I don't think I'll ever go that road, but these are the things that, that are bouncing around.

Cause, cause maybe, maybe, because I've also not had a mentor. To help guide me through these and just talking out loud with you right now, that would probably be helpful is to have a mentor, somebody who's been down this road and understands, the human fate, maybe the masculine fate. I have a quote right here in front of me that is from the Old Testament.

And again, I'm not religious. And so I'm still, I still get even a little squirmish having a Bible quote, sitting on my desk, but it says the word of the Lord came to me saying, before I formed you in the womb, I knew you. Before you were born, I set you apart. I appointed you as a prophet to the nations, from the book of Jeremiah in the Old Testament.

And I thought well [01:06:00] part of me can kind of okay, maybe maybe that's true for me, too But maybe that i'm my fate involves me talking to you right now That's part of my fate and it doesn't take a very big leap to say maybe that is If it's true for me, it must be true for you and it must be true for everybody else that maybe all of us Are part of just this beautiful knowing creative unfolding of waves washing on the shore having experiences and bringing that experience and knowledge back into the ocean that the entire ocean benefits from so it's like you say it's an unfolding and maybe Maybe you don't ever want to get to the place where you go.

Yeah, I got it figured out now here I'll tell you how it works because I I do know having grown up around conservative Christians if somebody comes to me and says You know, you need to know God. I know [01:07:00] God. Let me tell you, you know about I got no Whatever God that your mind can understand. I don't want that guy and I remember before I went into surgery six years ago.

My mother bless her. She's still alive. She'll be 89 in May And, and she's still, an active Christian and and she and I don't talk about religion much. Every now and then, I, I, I say prayers with her when we have meals. I know she likes that. And she goes, if you, if you're not like a Christian, how do you say such good prayers?

And I go, well, I got skills. I, I did this for years, but before I went into surgery, I'm down here in Mexico. She's up in Seattle and, and she just sends me a message right before I go into surgery. She says, you need to get right with God. And she says, you know what you need to do. You need to get back into church.

And I just smiled. I said, message back. Mom, God and I are on good terms. I love you. And went in and had surgery and went beautifully [01:08:00] And so, you know again when somebody says this is the god you need to know I don't know that the human can know that god, you know It's ineffable the words we try to come up with to explain a sunset to explain, you know the taste of a banana.

How do you explain certain things with words? That's always been the struggle of prophets and teachers, is how do you explain other worldly things in worldly words. So, 

Todd Zemek: it's a different thing when we start to come in contact with death though, isn't it? Yeah. 

Dr Robert Glover: It's kind of a cool thing. I'm really okay with it.

Yeah. Yeah. 

Todd Zemek: Yeah. And, and I think it's a fuller conversation and perhaps it does take having a few decades under your belt to really appreciate it. But in terms of the trajectory of this story, we, for a lot of nice guys, we're born into this false self and this false humility. Yeah. As we start [01:09:00] to walk through the world and develop a core and our sense of differentiation, then we're in a stronger position to be humbled in a, in another way.

Dr Robert Glover: And, and, as you say that, I'm reminded of kind of the Marianne Williamson quote, and I'll misquote it, but it's something like, it is, it's not like our darkness that scares us. It's our lightness. It's our, it's what we're truly capable of. The depth of the love is what, what scares us.

And, and I think that's really true because, going back to this quote from the book of Jeremiah, pretty much every prophet that, in the Bible or other, whether you take the Talmud or anything, when God calls them, they usually say, who am I? Who am I? Pick somebody, more qualified for the job.

And so maybe every one of us hopefully gets confronted with one of those, who am I moments in life? Who am I? to have this task. Who am I to be a father? Who am I to make this difference in the world? Who [01:10:00] am I, to lay my life down for somebody else? Whatever. Who am I to do this great thing? And it's funny because ego is so weird.

Is it, while ego seeks to have this identity and get valued by, stuff I do or things about me, my intellect, my humor, ego also is really repressive, ego cannot accept the expansiveness And the potential of who we are, even if I just tell people that yeah, this is so self evident But we don't think about it every atom in your body every atom in my body Existed at the Big Bang physics

teaches us. No new energy is created or lost. There's you know creation entropy I don't remember the exact words, but you know, there's this creation chaos Every atom, all energy, has always been accounted for. So every atom in your body has existed for a [01:11:00] big bang's eternity. Some theories say that there's been maybe multiple big bangs.

Maybe the cosmos is expanding and contracting. Yeah, of course, over billions and trillions of years. I don't know. The physicists don't know. All right. Physicists don't know what happened point one before Big Bang. They don't know. Einstein didn't know. They, they may have their guesses, but they don't know.

But what we do know is every atom in your body and my body existed at the Big Bang. That means we're part of creation, right? We are part of the cosmos. That's not ego. That's just reality. Can we accept that, that we are an equal part of the entire cosmos? And who are we not to be as fucking big as the cosmos, who are we not to be that 

Todd Zemek: the great point, I guess, poetically in the time that we've got remaining, you've been so generous, there'd be something, perfect about finishing on the spiritual, but I'm going to, I'm going to continue on that path about blending that with purpose.[01:12:00] 

So that you offer a course called what's it called? Nice guys. Don't finish last. They brought in middle management. 

Dr Robert Glover: Yeah. That's one of my classes. Yeah. Okay. 

Todd Zemek: I can definitely own that. That's been a bit of a struggle for me in that I will do all the reading. I've got postgraduate degrees in business, but in terms of actually.

Putting myself forward and sustaining growth in, in business, that's been a stumbling block for me and for many of my patients. I've got a successful private practice, of course, and some other things that I do, but so just wondering if you can comment on that in terms of life purpose, in terms of business and what it takes to, to actually move forward and gain 

Dr Robert Glover: traction.

Yeah, I say often when nice guys come to me, they're usually got, the complaints are usually three P's, one of three P's. Procrastination, porn, or purpose, lack of it. Okay. Those are three pretty common nice guy traits. Not every nice guy. And as I say, nice guys are good at being good, but not [01:13:00] great at being great.

And there could be so many pieces that get involved with us living up to To a full potential and kind of breaking through whatever last evening is it could be our codependent relationships Oh, I have to take care of other people their needs are more important and that is an anchor that draws you back It could be oh if I if I am successful, who will I make feel bad?

Will I make my parents feel bad? We think we'd make our parents happy But if you actually start showing up your family You'll actually start getting messages. Well, who are you? Who do you think you are? You know all because family wants to maintain the homeostatic, balance that they've always had So it could be or in your relationship or relationship, we don't want to make anybody else feel bad It's kind of like even Like, I've been eating really healthy for a fitness challenge right now.

So I've been eating healthy. Now my wife's a gym rat. She works out way more than I do. I have to make myself get to the gym. But you know, I think everybody, when they start eating healthy, they start watching what everybody [01:14:00] else is eating. And they go, you shouldn't, you shouldn't eat that. That's terrible for you.

Do you know that's bad? We all do that. I do it. I can't, it's almost hard to, I have to like, Shut my mouth, you should be eating rice crackers rather than those fried tortillas, you know um, but so but part of it is if I get like really fit and really strong and really, I I have past relationships where I've gotten really fit.

I've had women cheat on me. So it's almost like, if I get really good and really big and really strong, am I gonna cause people to feel bad around me? Am I gonna lose relationships? We don't know. Part of that was who am I to do this? A lot of it's the fear of the unknown. We're taking these steps.

It's just outside of what I know is in, I've known before. As the human mind loves familiarity. It likes Transcribed Repeating it likes getting up and doing today what it did yesterday. And so usually to be successful You kind of got to get up today and do something different when you did it yesterday Well, we can do it different tomorrow, right?

We'll be better tomorrow. We'll go to the gym [01:15:00] tomorrow, we'll meditate tomorrow we'll you know, we'll we'll launch that new company tomorrow and another piece of it is and this has been really true for me Because I I have launched a company in my mid 60s now integration nation and i've got You 25 to 30 coaches volunteering working with me.

I've got people on payroll. I I you know, we've got infrastructure and technology and accountants and the lawyers and and You know i'm building a bigger company i've ever built before in my 60s, you know when most guys are playing it small But the one thing that I think is enabling me to be doing that now Is that I have learned to let people help me I've learned to delegate.

I've learned to trust other people I've learned that other people can do a lot of shit better than I can And it's better to let them do it than me trying to do it in my own, less than than ideal way So i've gotten really good and it's funny as i've launched this company People keep [01:16:00] showing up and saying, Robert, can I help?

I believe in what you're doing. I like it. Can I, I'll consult with you. I'm, I'm an executive consultant or I'm this or I'm that, but I'd like to help you. I'd like to see you succeed. And so, and I'm letting them, I get on several zoom calls a month with people that just want, to support me in what I'm doing for, for nothing.

I got an orthodontist in Ireland that's got a 40 million practice. He's very successful. Robert, I believe in what you're doing. I just want to, help you. I want to be here for you. So it's letting my being able to do something bigger than I've ever done in my life has involved surrounding myself with competent, capable people.

Leading them and letting them do what they're good at and empowering them enabling them and loving on them and supporting them that then Everything i've accomplished in just the last two to three years with this new company I I couldn't have done it by myself or even just me and [01:17:00] my tech guy I mean, I really had to let people come in Now here's here's the thing kind of going back to the fate thing when guys come to me and say I I don't know what my purpose is, I I don't know what my passion is and part of it I think a lot of guys read david data I love this stuff and like he talks about purposes as singular and as part of karma That you've got to accomplish this before you move on.

I think purpose is is how how you live your life You do everything purposefully you brush your teeth with purpose you shave with purpose, you know You fuck with purpose you you watch your dog with purpose and and I I think if you do that purposely Purposely then bigger things keep opening up from there.

But I had a, going back to the, to the faith and faith thing again. I, I had an aha in just the last couple months, hadn't been very long ago, that, most people speak of faith. They're, they're talking about a faith in like, okay, something this holy book tells [01:18:00] me or something this preacher told me or this spiritual faith in like believing a concept or a thing maybe that you can't scientifically test.

I've come to the conclusion that maybe the biggest leap of faith is embracing your purpose, especially for a man. To embrace your purpose. To say, I don't know if this is going to succeed or not. I don't know if this is a total dumbass idea. I don't know if I'm going to spend all my savings on this and then die penniless.

I don't know. But it feels like I need to do it. That's fucking faith. That's faith. That I think is, is essential to get to the other side. Of the purpose there's got to be a leap of faith where you let go of the known What you've done before what you already know how to handle what you can see the you know The end of there's got to be a leap that says I don't know if this is going to work I don't know if this is the [01:19:00] right thing I don't know if i'm going to regret this till the day I die, but I got to try That's a leap of faith.

That's where I think men find their purpose their passion and their direction Yeah, 

Todd Zemek: being able to sit with the doubt, being seen, and then being open to being helped. 

Dr Robert Glover: Yeah. And being open to failing and becoming, outcome agnostic to becoming equally okay with every possible path of fate that maybe we're going down and maybe even this crashing and burning is exactly what's supposed to happen to take us to that next place.

Being okay with that. That, that, that takes work. It takes work getting okay with all of that unknown. 

Todd Zemek: Absolutely. You've been so generous and after going so, so big and so deep I do want to come back to something intellectual and, and relatively small. If you had three books to recommend to guys, in addition.[01:20:00] 

To no more Mr. Nice guy. I think we mentioned your book and I'll 

Dr Robert Glover: did we mention my book yet? Do we mention integration nation yet? I don't, I don't think we 

Todd Zemek: spoke about it directly. No. 

Dr Robert Glover: All right. Well, I'll just plug it guys. Just go to integration nation. net. It's a community for men. Check it out. That's that's, that's my purpose.

20 years. And 

Todd Zemek: what, what can they expect to find there? 

Dr Robert Glover: A community of men. Good men doing better. Good men loving each other, accepting love, learning how to love learning how to be the best version of ourselves. 

Todd Zemek: For people in Australia, for guys in Australia, what would be the experience? Is that this is a group that would meet?

It would be 

Dr Robert Glover: a Well, right now it's all virtual. And we actually, we just added this up this last week. Right now we have over 50 virtual calls a month to people. If you, one membership [01:21:00] fee covers all of that. And we've got, we, we got about eight weekly, what we call them tried calls that are led by a group of a team of coaches.

We have one, we call thunder from down under. It's led by some guys in New Zealand and Australia. And so we've got eight of those calls a week. A weekly call that I lead every Thursday already already did it earlier today Where I teach a lesson we have breakout rooms. We have q a Once a month I do an interview with somebody who's written a book some leader some people people might have heard of gs youngblood's been on karen brody wrote opener has been on mark manson's coming on later this year Warren Farrell, who wrote the myth of male power and the boy crisis is coming on.

Then I'll interview all these people on, on this monthly Thursday call. We have some other reading circles that guys can drop in. Reading No More Mr. Nice Guy. Some circles doing the break and free exercises from No More Mr. Nice Guy. We're about to Launch in person meetups around the world. Just [01:22:00] just casual social gatherings.

We're the men in the program and you know post on a calendar Hey, let's let's go play frisbee golf on this Saturday in Brisbane, whatever. So we'll start having more of that That in person. We hope to soon launch weekend kind of initiation type retreats around the world hope to get to an annual conference once or twice a year where people can meet up in person and hear guest speakers.

So I plan for it to be the world's largest community of men. Sounds 

Todd Zemek: fantastic. And if that's infused with the values that you've shared, that's started through the model of No More Mr. Nice 

Dr Robert Glover: Guy. It runs through and through. 

Todd Zemek: That's an amazing, amazing contribution. So look, you have been so grateful in your, your time.

Dr Robert Glover: I didn't, I didn't get to recommend the books yet. Oh, 

Todd Zemek: you mentioned a few in terms of the authors. I thought that that was that was your way of doing it. So please, 

Dr Robert Glover: please. So, okay. Three, three [01:23:00] books. Well, I have mentioned David Dayton, way the superior man, probably, a lot of men in men's work have, have come across that at some point.

A relationship book. One of my all time favorite books is called passionate marriage by Dr. David Snarch. You familiar with that? Yeah, he's really, he talks a lot about fusion and differentiation as well. I like it. And the guy's just, he's dead now. He passed away about two years ago. He's brilliant.

One of my all time favorite books is a book called feel the fear and do it anyway by Susan Jeffers. Helped me a lot in my life in difficult times. It's one of those kind of pretty simple, but profound type books. I think the book that every time I listen to it, I think, Damn, I wish I'd written that book is Esther Perel's Mating in Captivity.

Yes. She's, she's brilliant. She's brilliant. Absolutely nailing it. Yeah. So, so yeah. So that's just, that's a good, good range of books to get people. Absolutely. [01:24:00] 

Todd Zemek: Well, look, Robert, you're 68 years old. Yeah. 

Dr Robert Glover: Yeah. I heard that. 

Todd Zemek: I'm 52. So that's, that's where I'm at on this journey. It's great to have someone like yourself that I respect, your, your values, what you've offered with such clarity and, and where you're heading.

So that's that's been a real gift to me. So I just want 

Dr Robert Glover: to say, thank you. Thank you for telling me that it's nice to know. I like knowing that. 

Todd Zemek: Excellent. Well, definitely people can check out integration nation. No, Mr. Nice guy. And thank you again. 

Dr Robert Glover: You're welcome. And thank you for the invitation.

Let's do this again. Okay. I will take 

Todd Zemek: you up on that. I will 

Dr Robert Glover: take you up. I'll, I'll, I'll take you up on it too. 

Todd Zemek: Sounds great. Thank you so much, Robert. Thank you.