Understanding Narcissism in Relationships - Wendy Behary

Narcissism originates from people not having been valued for who they are. They have typically been loved or appreciated for a role they perform or results they provide. This presents relational challenges for them and the people they are close to.

I typically recommend Wendy Behary's book Disarming the Narcissist to help partners and family members. This book will help you understand and become creative so relationships have a better chance of heading in a healthier direction. 

Wendy is the founder and director of The Cognitive Therapy Center of New Jersey and The Schema Therapy Institutes of NJ-NYC and DC.

She has been treating clients, training professionals and supervising psychotherapists for more than 20 years. She is also on the faculty of the Cognitive Therapy Center and Schema Therapy Institute of New York, where she has trained and worked with Dr. Jeffrey Young since 1989. Wendy is a founding fellow (and supervisor) of The Academy of Cognitive Therapy (Dr. Aaron T. Beck). She was also the President of the International Society of Schema Therapy (ISST) from 2010-2014.

Wendy Behary has co-authored several chapters and articles on Schema Therapy and Cognitive Therapy. She is the author of “Disarming the Narcissist…Surviving and Thriving with the Self-Absorbed” (New Harbinger Publications—2008 & 2013). Now translated in 10 languages. Wendy has a specialty in treating narcissists and the people who live with and deal with them. As an author and an expert on the subject of narcissism, she is a contributing chapter author of several chapters on Schema Therapy for narcissism (Wiley and APA Press, 2011, 2012, 2013). She lectures both nationally and internationally to professional and general audiences on the subject of Schema Therapy, and the subject of narcissism, relationships, and dealing with difficult people. Her work with industry has included speaking engagements focused on interpersonal conflict resolution.

Her private practice is primarily devoted to treating narcissists, partners/people dealing with them, and couples experiencing relationship problems. She is also an expert in coaching individuals in interviewing, public speaking, and interpersonal skills enhancement.

You can learn more about Wendy and her work at the website https://disarmingthenarcissist.com/

Transcript

Understanding Narcissism in Relationships
Todd Zemek Speaking with Wendy Behary

Todd Zemek (00:05):

Wendy Behary is the founder and director of the Cognitive Therapy Center of New Jersey and the Schema Therapy Institutes of New Jersey, New York City, and dc. She served as the president of the International Society of Schema Therapy from 2010 to 2014. She's been a therapist, trainer, and supervisor of psychotherapists for more than 20 years. As if that's not enough credibility, Wendy is the author of a fascinating book titled, disarming The Narcissist, surviving and Thriving of the Self-Absorbed. It's been so popular, it's been transcribed into 10 languages. So I know my patients are going to be so keen to learn from you today, Wendy, and thank you so much for joining us.

Wendy Behary (00:41):

Thanks Todd. Thanks for having me.

Todd Zemek (00:43):

Let's jump straight into some of the foundations here. So what exactly is narcissism and what's the source? Where does this come from?

Wendy Behary (00:51):

When we think of someone who has narcissistic treats, we think of someone along a spectrum of anywhere from the benign to the severe is largely self-absorbed. At the more severe into the spectrum, you'll see more intensity in that area of control and dominance. Perhaps even abuse in some cases, not all cases. They can be very charming and alluring and heroic and superhero types as well, which makes them to many people, quite irresistible. And I like to say almost no one is immune to getting captured or captivated by their, their spell, but they are highly entitled people. So it's my way or no way, and the rules don't apply to me. And there's reasons for all of this. You know, when I write about these modes or masks that they wear that keep them from being able to express empathy that keep them from being able to see the impact of their behaviors, often offensive behaviors on others.

(01:51):

So I'm still describing some of the traits, but the backstory of that, or the personal narrative, if you will, is usually found in the origins of a child who was not loved unconditionally. That the conditions, I mean, you can also have, I'll just get this out of the way because a lot of people listening will think, well what about just, you know, people who are spoiled and overly indulged? And yes, narcissism can grow out of a pure environment of being spoiled, overly indulged, no limit setting. And basically a family were privileged and status may be replicated in the life of the child as they evolve. And so there's is this idea that we're better than other people and we don't have to follow the same rules or guidelines as others. But the types of narcissists that we typically see more often are those that had an interestingly different background where they weren't loved for just being their own precious little self.

(02:49):

That there were conditions and expectations for performance and greatness placed upon them. So they carried those burdens when they were very young, got confusing messages often from one parent who would see them as this trophy child with all great possibilities. And the other child who, the other parent who might've been demanding and critical and nothing was ever good enough. So, you know, when you grow up with a, with a high emphasis on performance as a measure of your value and worth, it's pretty tough to know that you're fine in here without proving it. And so what we see in the narcissist over time is the construction of these modes, as we call it in schema therapy, where they develop these parts of themselves that can show up very bold and blustery, very super entitled. And controlling can be pretty obnoxious in, in many cases at the milder end of the spectrum.

(03:46):

It might just be that annoying, you know, show off that you're dealing with. But in all cases, there's a high degree of self-absorption. There's a lot of focus on seeking approval from others. It's all about this is how I gain my value, my worth, my purpose. And this becomes their mission. And while they will hurt people, typically their intention is not to hurt people. Their intention is to protect their ego at all costs. But they will hurt you if it means that you stand to threaten that sense of superiority that is so central to their feelings of worth.

Todd Zemek (04:19):

It sounds that the picture that you paint, if that's a common dynamic between parents, that on the one hand, elevated as trophy child, and then on the other hand it's depreciated and devalued. Is what you're saying is that there isn't a middle ground where the experience of simply being human or having anyone interested in the uniqueness of that human being that just simply hasn't existed?

Wendy Behary (04:41):

Exactly. And that's where, if we could debunk the myth about empathy when it comes to narcissists, it's not that they have no capacity for empathy. They have an underdeveloped or not developed capacity for empathy because of what you just said so beautifully that they were not seen. When you haven't been seen, when you haven't experienced someone really getting you and knowing you, you actually don't know yourself. Over time, you lose connection with that vulnerable part of yourself. And so I've spent 30 years treating pretty serious narcissistic men at the serious end of the spectrum. And I have seen that possibility. It's hard, it doesn't happen often, but it does happen. Where once they can connect with their vulnerability and really become acquainted with who they are in here, you know, underneath all the layers of performance, then there is that chance for them to have a capacity to see the experience of the other.

Todd Zemek (05:42):

What would be some of the milestones in that journey? So if you're specializing and you've seen some men in the, the more extreme realm start to come into trusting someone to reflect their and then work with their humanness rather than their superhuman ness, what are some of the, the milestones along that way? Cause that's got to be a bumpy road, I imagine

Wendy Behary (06:06):

It's an incredibly bumpy road. And it doesn't happen because they walk in voluntarily saying, Hey, I've got a problem and I need to work on this. It happens because they've been forced to go to therapy, meaning there's some kind of a consequence that matters enough to them. We call that leverage that has driven them into therapy unhappily. So, you know, yippy, I've got someone walking in who doesn't want to be there and is about to tear apart any part of me, my office, my work that they can, because again, they're always in kind of on the move looking for that position of power and dominance. And so some would say, you know, you, you must be a masochist to want to work with this type. And my answer is, I can understand that point of view, but it's incredibly rewarding when you can get them to begin to see the missing elements, the parts in their life that just haven't been appreciated.

(07:05):

The ordinariness that has never been favored of simple things like a courtesy or just laughing or being silly or spontaneous, or dropping your guard and sharing a hurt or a loss or a sadness or a fear. So when permission is granted in a way that it feels safe enough to do so, I think it becomes somewhat irresistible because it's what they need deep at the core. And they also see changes in their relationships with partners and coworkers and they're winning a different kind of favor. So it's not the favor that's just based on their high marks or their productivity, but it's on just being a decent citizen, a good human, a loving partner.

Todd Zemek (07:50):

I imagine that would be a, a simple miracle if if that's simply not existed before, it'd be a real sweet, I mean, we're smiling as we're, as we're talking about it. Yes, there'd be something very special about that.

Wendy Behary (08:01):

It's incredibly special, you know, to watch this vulnerable part of their soul really step out of this prison that they've been in for such a long time, where they're not permitted by way of this internal demanding credo. You know, this voice that says to express your emotions, to express your fears, to share your worries, your sadness is to show a sign of weakness is to belittle yourself, is to demean yourself in the face of others.

Todd Zemek (08:32):

So what are some of the skills that they, once they have that as a platform with you, and I imagine that's a, that rapprochement process in a way, just sort of going backwards and forth backwards and forwards once there's a little bit of trust there and you said it starts to filter out into their relationships. What are some of the skills that they start to learn for the first time?

Wendy Behary (08:51):

Well, like saying, I'm sorry. Mm-Hmm. But saying it in a way that is not so much about,

Todd Zemek (08:56):

I'm sorry you feel that way,

Wendy Behary (08:58):

<Laugh>. Yeah, sorry. You feel that way. Sorry, you're so sensitive, worthy. I'm sorry. That sounds very cynical. Like, you know, okay, what do you want to do? Persecute me. Have I paid enough for the crime so I know I'm shameful and no good? You know, and it's very cynical and it's wrapped around that guilt and shame that they feel actually deep at the core, that shame of making a mistake, getting it wrong. They're not stupid. They know they're getting it wrong, but they're so defensive and entitled and they'll justify it because to face the reality of committing an error is unthinkable. But when they're freed from that, then they're able to actually see with empathy and compassion the effects on someone else, you know, like anyone else could do who's not narcissistic.

Todd Zemek (09:46):

So they can be with someone that can experience their humanity. And there's some just some simple humility there that would make space for others. They,

Wendy Behary (09:53):

They can say words like, you know, I miss you, or I'm worried about.dot dot. Or I'm scared when, or I'm sad about, you know, it's more vulnerable, it's more real, it's more authentic. It's, you know, it's amazing how many times the narcissist in, in the spirit of wanting to share, I'm exhausted and I don't feel appreciated. And by the way, I miss you. That comes out as, give me a break, get off my back, and you're never happy with anything I do. So they start hearing that their message is getting lost in the delivery and they see that it's really coming from this mode that's been constructed to protect them from uttering the very vulnerable, sweet message that could otherwise be heard.

Todd Zemek (10:40):

You were saying that you can specialize in working with men with narcissism and some of the extremes, these guys have access to Google, they know what you do. Is that a blessing or a curse in terms of engagement?

Wendy Behary (10:51):

You know, it opens up a conversation that's important, but it's pretty tough, you know, so they're a little more belligerent because like you said, if you put my name in Google, there's, you know, countless pages with the word narcissism there. So they're coming in already to do battle against such ridiculousness. And by the way, don't you know my partners the narcissist and you should meet the morons I work with, because then you'd really know what narcissism looks like. And you know, new therapists who think you know it all. Well, I think you've got a little bit of narcissism going on too. So you got a, you can be quite affronted by that. That's

Todd Zemek (11:24):

A Phil familiar song. Yeah. And they might be partially right, <laugh> <laugh> maybe. Yeah.

Wendy Behary (11:29):

But, but the point is that it opens up the door for a conversation about temperament and environment and nature nurture and how personality evolves. And actually that, while the word narcissism isn't a pretty one that we want to put on our resume, it says something important about the construction of a way of being in order to deal with certain conditions that can activate a lot of pain that's still occurring from the deep past. And that's, you know, that's a function of memory and that's a function of just how our brain operates. And they're very respectful, often of science. So all the fluff, the fluff of psychology doesn't quite do it for them, but just add a little bit of the wisdom of science and then they can be on board.

Todd Zemek (12:14):

What about covert narcissism? How's that distinguished?

Wendy Behary (12:18):

You know, it's, it's not different in terms of the traits that live inside the personality. It's different in terms of the way it expresses itself. So covert narcissists tend to be, they may suffer more, in fact, because they're not expressive in that bullying way that it comes across more passive, aggressively martyr, like they're the victims, you know, I'm always the one who, and you can't believe what I have to put up with, and I would never brag about doing X, Y, Z. But you know, other people brag, even though between you and me, I was the biggest donor this year at a charitable event, but I wouldn't brag about that. So there's a lot of this sense of injustice and, and a lot of suffering. Whereas the more classic overt narcissist is they just spew it all out there. They're both suffering at some level, but you just get different presentations and style.

Todd Zemek (13:14):

And I guess there could be some overlap between the examples that you give there in terms of borderline traits or hysterical traits. But we're coming back to this flavor in terms of self-worth being the core. Would you then differentiate that even further at a different types within that? So if you've got that, that's more dominant to be expressed outward, covert being expressed inward is the further differentiation that you look at

Wendy Behary (13:40):

Mostly in what you'll see in the origins that will inform the behaviors in later adult lives. So in other words, if you were, again, they all share these traits to varying degrees, and it's the way they'll express themselves that might make the difference. But a child who has had parents who are forever cleaning up their mess for them, always getting them out of a scuff, never allowing them to take responsibility or to learn how to tolerate frustration or how to be uncomfortable, which is preparation for life skills, right? You know, how to learn to be uncomfortable in the world, which is part of what we deal with every day. Wait, your turn in line, be patient. Not that you're perfect, no one's perfect in those areas, but to know it's just a part of life. And so for those types of narcissistic individuals, it's very really difficult for them to not have someone at their beck and call always taking care of business so that they should never suffer a discomfort of any kind.

(14:42):

So there's that type, and then there's the more deprived entitled type. And so they tend to be a bit more compensatory because they so need to be in this autonomous, hyper autonomous state of being because they can't allow themselves to ever believe that they could count on someone else to really care about them, really be there for them, really take care of things. And the we in the way they quote unquote, need to be done in order to meet certain standards. And so they're very easily agitated because they have these standards that are mostly unrelenting and unreachable, but it keeps them on the constant treadmill. You'll find workaholism and other excessive behaviors in that mix.

Todd Zemek (15:25):

I've got a great interest in relationships and dating, and I'm just wondering in terms of the dating process, speaking to attachment experts now saying if you're over 35 best that you prepare yourself for the fact that the majority of people that you're going to be dating are not securely attached to many of them are going to be avoided or dismissive in terms of dating. What would be some of the, the typical signs that this is at play when people are engaging in that dating process?

Wendy Behary (15:53):

Some of the questions I often ask my clients who have come out of narcissistic relationships and they're actually terrified about how to scrutinize their meeting other people. And so one of the first things I will advise them to do is use the dating experience as a discovery mission so that you can learn more about yourself and pay attention to your own reactions. Because when you're in the presence of someone with narcissistic issues, you may not be able to pick it up right away, but there are little clues, little cues. And that would be things like, does this person asks questions about you? And not, do they just ask questions like a good interviewer? Do they really listen to the answers? Do they listen to the answers in a way that seems to express an understanding or an interest in what you're saying? Do they show enthusiasm for your joyful details?

(16:49):

Do they show concern for the, the things that are bothersome or upsetting to you? If you're sharing something upsetting, do they give you room to speak? Do they interrupt? Do they make eye contact? Are they overly solicitors? Do they seem to be spending a lot of time trying to win your approval? Now, let's face it, first date, second dates, there's a lot of, I want to show my best self. So we have to factor that in. But with the narcissist, it's going to be a little overdone. And they're also very quick right from the start, to want to show you that they're going to save you and make your life amazing because they have all the goodies and the connections and the ways to solve your problems and fix things. And that can be incredibly tempting, particularly if you're someone who is, you know, struggling a bit or feeling at a loss. And here you have this prince or this amazing person or princess who's going to make it all better for you. And so it's not that you should run as fast as you can, it's, you know, just pay attention to it. Watch the patterns, look for these signs over time.

Todd Zemek (17:55):

And in particular how they're responding to your humanity, the capacity to be curious about what's inside. And if people have experienced none of that, I guess it would be almost impossible for them to engage at that level.

Wendy Behary (18:06):

Yeah, and narcissists are very popular in dating scenarios. I know this because I know the narcissistic men that I treat when they're going into dating scenarios and we work on this and they give me their script or their shtick or their way of being, it's often ticking the boxes. You know, what do you do? How much do you make? Well, they may not ask that out, right? But they'll try to figure that out from your career position. It's kind of like reading a resume off an online dating site. So it's not so much about your humanity, about your emotional experiences, about what matters to you, your values, not so much when you're sitting across from a narcissist,

Todd Zemek (18:44):

If they're performance driven and they engage with the world, based on the external, whether it's apparent or not, is it more likely that they're searching for perfection or scanning for that sort of thing?

Wendy Behary (18:56):

Yes. Well, they're looking for someone who's going to continue to help them in winning the approval of the world, right? So they, they're always looking for someone who's either going to make them look good or better, at least initially. Cuz eventually they'll resent that person if they look better than they do. But initially it's someone who's going to make me look good or even make me look better than I am. Or it's someone who at least looks good next to me, but will be my humble servant. And so it's a little bit of a mix of those items because the narcissist wants a partner who is not going to be disagreeable, who will be very happy, very content with whatever they decide to bestow upon you, and that you will be happy, quiet, don't complain, don't criticize, and do their bidding,

Todd Zemek (19:47):

Which would be the opposite of the original promise that I will strengthen you, I'm going to elevate you.

Wendy Behary (19:51):

Yes. And in their mind, if you were to say, but you had made a promise, they'd say yes. And I've given you a good life, the best life. No one could have given you a better life than I have. So it doesn't matter that you may have different needs, wants, opinions, values, ideas, theirs are the right ones.

Todd Zemek (20:10):

So how does this translate emotionally? How does it translate sexually in relationships?

Wendy Behary (20:16):

Well, emotionally it becomes a bit of a void, right? The chief complaint from so many partners who are living with narcissists is, I just feel erased. I feel invisible. My feelings don't seem to matter. I don't know what happens inside the inner world of my narcissistic partner. I don't have a sense in the case of narcissistic men, even more so than with narcissistic women, although both tend to lack that capacity to show true vulnerability. The narcissistic can play the diva, right? And can be very dramatic and expressive and can also be what I write about as the virtuous victim. But that's not the same as being truly vulnerable and open and intimate. And so the emotional world is very stale and lonely for people living with narcissists. There isn't that kind of reciprocity of, you know, sharing experiences and seeing one another and appreciating a condition that might be upsetting or a struggle that might be difficult or stressful or, or just even sharing your day with one another, but in an emotional way, not in a productivity quantifiable way sexually.

(21:30):

For so many people, without that intimacy, the sex life is not satisfying. There's a lack of emotional intimacy. Therefore, the sexual intimacy doesn't feel quite as sexy or alluring for partners of narcissists. And in the sexual world, the narcissist, because there's so much about performance, they can tend to be, as a population quite hypersexual, and their hypersexuality will have them, you know, drifting, wandering into places like pornography use and sex workers and affairs and serial affairs. Because sex becomes an opportunity to pleasure themselves without having to give anything back in return. You know, you don't have to give anything back or please anybody when you go into the world of pornography or sex workers, it's all on you. It's your convenience on your time, and maybe you pay for it, but it's not reciprocal. And so for the narcissist, there's a level of appeal there because part of their makeup and the way that they deal with life when they're not in the middle of their workaholism or they're entertaining an audience or their winning favor, is to shut down and stimulate themselves. And that stimulation can come from gambling, can come from gaming, can come from drinking, but it also can come from sex. Something their partners who are not going to do so readily.

Todd Zemek (22:54):

Does that tend to weave into a dismissive attachment in a way? In that part of that dynamic is more about the comfort with exploration that I can go out and explore how to perform at that level. And they might become very good at that. But the flip side is that there's really no experimentation with trust.

Wendy Behary (23:14):

Yeah, that's very well put. And it is about, you don't have to engage with anyone at the intimate level. You don't have to be vulnerable and you don't have to reciprocate. And trust is a very interesting issue with narcissists. I mean, they're often accused, or at least I've had trainees ask me in supervision, are they just paranoid? I said, well, you know, you can have comorbidity with any kind of a diagnosis or any kind of a person. But I don't think so. I think what it is, is they are super individuals because they do lack trust in what would be genuine caring. The narcissist has grown up in an environment where love is conditional and in many cases, affection and embrace and terms of endearment are limited to what the parent needs, not what the child needs. And so many of them will say, I was like a surrogate to my mother, or I was a surrogate to my parent or my grandparent or someone in the family. I never felt like it was really about me. So the irony is when you behave in a way that's caring, they're demeaning of that because they're highly suspicious of your motives. Cuz people aren't supposed to care about you, just for you. They're supposed to applaud you for your achievements, but not care about you, just for you.

Todd Zemek (24:33):

I guess the presentations that I see often is that there, you know, o over time there is a a wearing out in terms of the effort that's expended and not having any support with that humanity. There's just some confusion about why am I having these human experiences of just feeling so hollow? And a number of these guys have been very, very sexually active, but with a little bit of exploration. These have been very high numbers of one night stance, but very few lovers, very few connections that have gone any deeper at all. I'm really very, very curious about the gender differences. Can you speak to that a little bit for me?

Wendy Behary (25:13):

Well, I would start with this, that there are female narcissists for sure who can look like a carbon copy of their male counterpart. So like I, I like to say there are plenty of divas to match the Dons out there, but then there are some interesting differences. Whereas with the female narcissist, as I said before, you'll get more of this pronouncement of this kind of victim. You know, like, my life is so hard, you think you've had a bad day. Let me tell you what a bad day really looks like. You think you've had it rough, you don't know rough. I know rough, and I'll describe that to you. So their pain is even more extraordinary. But it's still that idea that I have the most extraordinary something, even my pain, even my humility, even my embarrassment is bigger than anybody else's. So

Todd Zemek (26:04):

And so that's the license, right? It's

Wendy Behary (26:05):

Like a martyrdom,

Todd Zemek (26:06):

It's my pain trump's yours, then my martyrdom is a license to take center stage.

Wendy Behary (26:12):

Absolutely. I take center stage and then I'm entitled, who wouldn't stand up and scream at that moment. So I made a scene, but you know, my life is so challenging. If you had to deal with my challenges, you'd stand up and scream too. So it justifies these noxious behaviors that they will do with others. And it can sound to many a therapists, they can be a bit tricked at times into thinking, well gosh, they're tearful, they're sounding so powerless and hopeless and in so much pain. And I say, well, you're not quite there yet, <laugh>, you know, there's still another floor to go down before you get to that basement where the real vulnerability is, this is still part of a mode that enables them to justify their sense of entitlement. So you're not quite there yet, even though it can sound like vulnerability. And that's one of the distinguishing differences. The other is that, you know, female narcissists do still tend to gather their sense of worth and value around their appearance. I mean, men do too. But you'll see that more with women around how their children are performing. Again, men do too, but women even more so how my kids look, what people are saying about my children, their domestic prowess, their clothes. It's still sort of limited to that domain for the most part.

Todd Zemek (27:36):

Heightened by social media, I imagine.

Wendy Behary (27:38):

Oh gosh, yes, of course. You know,

Todd Zemek (27:41):

Yeah, I've been in situations where I've seen some of that behavior coming through and just that sense of being incredulous about the audacity of how, how dare you question me when I, I do so much.

Wendy Behary (27:53):

And you'll hear that from the male narcissist too. So you'll get, you can get some of that. But what you're not hearing from the male narcissist, you're not hearing so much of that pronoun I, me, poor me. You're not hearing that. You're hearing you. They with the criticalness, the cynicalness, the attack. So they tend to be more bully and attacking as we see it in our model that we practice. We call it a bully and attack mode. And they'll go into that mode when they do feel or perceive a threat to something about their performance or something they've done, something that's going to interfere with their shiny ego. And so you'll get more of the, you know, you've got to be kidding me. And you think you're so smart and you think, you know, you won't hear the, I've suffered, you might hear the, I work harder than most people, but it's not said in the same exact way it's said to make the point of putting you down, elevating their sense of importance, but with no victimhood attached to it. And that's one chief difference.

Todd Zemek (29:15):

In terms of who's attracted to narcissists, were your observations there?

Wendy Behary (29:20):

I think almost anyone could be attracted to someone who's narcissistic, particularly when they're in their charming modes, because again, there's such good performers that the courtship face of the relationship, they know what to do, they know how to play it. But that question of who's more likely to continue to tolerate the behaviors of a narcissist once it begins to expose itself is interesting. And I think that those that are more at risk will be those who have not as sturdy sense of self, that don't feel, that maybe have been raised to believe that they don't have value. The funny thing is, Todd, they can share the same life themes, but they have different coping modes. So whereas the narcissist has this underlying theme that they're inadequate, that they're not good enough, that constantly plays behind the scenes, and they're always accommodating it with this compensating entitlement and controlling behavior, their partners too can have this underlying sense that I'm not good enough, I'm not smart enough, I'm inadequate.

(30:27):

But they compensate differently by sacrificing themselves in order to get whatever little golden crumbs they can get from the narcissist. So it's a more self-sacrificing, subjugated way of being, just to keep the peace, just to keep the harmony, just to get whatever little tidbits I can get. And the narcissist criticisms of them, they don't necessarily fight those criticisms because there's a tendency to just surrender to what they're being told because it's part of the way they survive, it's way they've always survived. It's just to accept this as a fact, the narcissist is more of the fighter partners tend to be more of the compliant surrenders or avoiders. And so those tendencies, I mean, there's other reasons why people will stay in relationships. They have children, they're protecting their children. They know that exiting the relationship could bring harm to their children. If the narcissist is on the severe end of the spectrum, some partners will stay because they actually really see the vulnerability from time to time and they're drawn to it and they have this super empathic way of relating to the world. And so it's hard for them to break away. Others, again, like I said, will stay because of some of these more dysfunctional patterns that tend to sabotage them and keep them in these lonely places.

Todd Zemek (31:46):

I'm sure that a lot of people listening to our conversation right now, some may be identifying some of those traits in themselves. Some will definitely be identifying that in their partners. I'm really curious about schema therapy, and perhaps that might be something helpful for us to talk about so that people could understand one, how they conceptualize this in their partner and themselves and and how that type of treatment works. Yeah,

Wendy Behary (32:08):

And I write about this a lot in my books at a, you know, in a general way so that it's a little more digestible. So I'll try to see if I can say that as simply and clearly as possible. But when schema therapy was developed by Dr. Jeffrey Young back in the late eighties, and I met him actually at that time. And so I was very fortunate to be part of the developing team in looking at this model as it evolved and studying it and practicing it. And it was through my recognition of my own triggers, you know, the activation of feelings inside myself when I was in the presence of someone with narcissistic traits that would have me suddenly feeling like I was completely diminished, feeling myself wanting to just give in, give up, apologize. I was startled. Luckily there was another part of me that, you know, the curious part of me that was observing this going, what are you doing?

(33:05):

You know, you've just been reduced to like a five year old and you've lost your voice, you've lost your authority, you've lost your professionalism. And that was an interesting challenge. And so in the throes of continuing to develop schema therapy with Jeff Young, we began to work not only on the approach for borderline personality disorder, but also to look at an effective approach for narcissistic personality disorder. So what is schema therapy? Well, if you think about, as I, I was starting to say it comes out of, it was sort of a growth from cognitive therapy, meaning that what Jeff was discovering was that it wasn't just the way people look at things. In other words, cognition, thoughts, and beliefs. It's not just a belief that can get you entrapped, but something deeper, A belief that has deep emotional intensity associated with it. Bodily sensations, inclinations towards behaviors and impulses that could be problematic.

(34:00):

So schema are what we think of as traits or strong core emotional beliefs that were formed in childhood or adolescence as a result of attachment ruptures as a result of unmet emotional needs. So for example, if you grew up in a family where you were being told that you were a loser, that you had nothing to offer, or you were being shown that in some vicarious way, even though if the words weren't uttered, so specifically, you could develop what we would call a defectiveness and shame schema. And that doesn't mean you're walking around every minute of your life thinking that you're defective and shameful, but under certain conditions that smell like, sound like, look like, tastes like, right, that the brain in its magnificence can sense opportunity to remind us of those scenarios from once upon a time. So in all of its magnificence, it can be kind of stupid when it comes to time telling.

(34:58):

And we get tricked through our implicit responses to see the world through that lens again, and to react to it through that lens until we begin to make sense out of it, until we have some help in discerning what was then and what is now. And we can react from a healthier position. So schema are basically the, it's the identification of these traits that are associated with our early unmet needs that are formed in childhood adolescence as a result of experiences that were not satisfying, that did not meet our needs. And a combination, you know, the interplay of our temperament and our biological coding. So basically understanding that and looking at how did we survive it? How did you survive an atmosphere where you were abused, an atmosphere where you were deprived and neglected, where there was abandonment, where there was the subjugation of your needs, or where there was an ament that was so powerful, a suffocation, an overt attachment by one parent needing you so much.

(35:59):

How did you survive that as a child? So as we're conceptualizing, we're understanding not just the beliefs that were formed at an intense emotional level, but also what was done. Because typically what we do to survive it as powerless little beings follows us into our adult life. And while it had some value when we were little and helpless, it doesn't have the same value as we grow. And what I often say to my narcissistic clients is, listen, doing the best you could and being a superstar, when you were little, it was a survival mechanism and it worked. Kept your father happy, kept your mother not depressed and able to show you off to all her friends. You got some goodies from that. So it worked. But always being the one who's performing in a social setting, never allowing anyone else to speak, always having to be the best of the best, and to outshine anyone who's in your presence doesn't have the same effect. In fact, it can be offensive, it can be off-putting, it can be hurtful, right? So it's really helping them to see that these coping styles or these modes that were constructed for survival are not relevant. In fact, they're harmful, they're self-defeating.

Todd Zemek (37:10):

So when someone comes along for schema therapy, the therapist would be able to help them identify those emotion-based beliefs.

Wendy Behary (37:18):

Yes.

Todd Zemek (37:19):

What could they expect in treatment From there?

Wendy Behary (37:21):

What a client can expect from therapy is that we're going to identify the ches through a number of sources. We'll use inventories to do that. Life history questionnaires, the therapy relationship, the narrative, the sharing of stories, the watching for patterns that are even occurring between us. And then what they begin to appreciate is this idea that we can't change what happened in the past. We can't erase schema because the brain has memory and memory functions in dormant ways and implicit ways. So, but what we can do is weaken the hold and reorganize the way information gets stored. So I can't change that. Your father said you were a loser, he said it, but what we can change is the fact that it wasn't true and you've believed it your whole life. You've responded to it like a truth your whole life. You've been fighting, persevering, trying to win approval and prove him wrong your whole life through mechanisms that don't actually resolve the problem because they make you show up like a bully.

(38:23):

So schema therapy is about, we use strategies like the imagination, we call it imagery or an imagery, is about experiencing these emotional memories, these emotional images if you will. They don't even have to be explicit memory because not everyone remembers things so explicitly, but we use images of this child, we begin to script and imagine what it's like when you can absorb that sensation of being cared for, of knowing that you're enough, of having someone stand up for you against perhaps a critical parent or an abusive or demanding or neglectful. One, having an advocate, we use the imagination for play. Maybe the child who was never really allowed to play because their life was so built around always having to produce and perform whatever the need might be. We try to incorporate that into the experiential work. They will experience in schema therapy, this understanding and a real up close appreciation for the various dimensions of themselves that we call modes, these states of mind that we drift in and out of based on certain conditions that we're experiencing.

(39:37):

So if is schema gets activated, I can tell in the treatment room that my narcissist decline is triggered and that they're probably feeling the effects of, you know, maybe their defectiveness shame schema or their emotional deprivation schema. The one that says, people will never understand you or care about you, or their mistrust schema, oh, Wendy's acting nice. So she must be up to something. I can tell they're triggered because they've just drifted. They've shifted immediately from being in this rather maybe pleasant mode to getting very argumentative, to criticizing me, to putting down the therapy, to throwing their hands in the air, to scoffing and rolling their eyes. So I know some things happened. So we watch these moment to moment experiences in the treatment room. We begin to identify these various domains or these different dimensions of personality in ways of coping. We have measurable goals.

(40:33):

You know, it's so easy in schema therapy to look for measurable goals because what we're watching for is how they can begin to predict and experience that their schemas are getting triggered less, that the intensity of activation is reduced and that the ability to recover is quicker. So less activation, lower intensity, quicker recovery. We can watch for that and clients will start coming into therapy saying, when I say what challenges, what triggers, what victories are we talking about this week? And they can say, you know, six months ago I would've been horribly triggered by this. And you know what I did this time? I stood up for myself. I can't believe it. I stood up for myself. <Laugh>

Todd Zemek (41:16):

So satisfying. I frequently recommend ischemic therapy for people for a couple of reasons. One, because it's something that's lacking from a lot of therapists and mental health professionals, is just those conceptual capacities for what's happening internally. And two, because I've done some schema therapy as a patient and really experience the power when you're talking about imagination and some of the responsiveness that can come from that one was really quite blown away by both the power in those moments, but also the effectiveness and the changes in my life. So yeah, certainly a very big fan of that.

Wendy Behary (41:48):

It's a highly integrative model too, I should say that it, it is informed by attachment theory and it is informed by models of therapy that have shown some scientific evidence for effectiveness. And so it does very thoughtfully integrate from those schools of thought.

Todd Zemek (42:05):

I imagine you've experimented with that as a patient at times. You've been quite open about your experiences earlier.

Wendy Behary (42:10):

Absolutely. I think you have to in order to be able to appreciate, you know, the power of this model and to be able to empathically appreciate the experience of the person sitting across from you in the other chair.

Todd Zemek (42:23):

Yeah, I think so. You need to have been with yourself in, in order to be with the self of someone else,

Wendy Behary (42:28):

We highly recommend our schema therapists engage in self-reflection, self-practice work, and that, you know, part of supervision in your training to be a schema therapist, at least through the International Society of Schema Therapy, is based on that, you know, willingness to take a look at your own, you know, your own schema, your own modes and what gets triggered so that you can be the sturdiest caregiver. You can be, because the schema therapist is, is taking the role of a good parenting agent or a good caregiver, a good advocate for the vulnerable part of their clients.

Todd Zemek (43:03):

So we were speaking about the defectiveness or, or shame side of things for people who are listening who may have seen a pattern of being attracted to narcissists or engaging in, you know, developing a, a stronger sense of self while they're in an invalidating environment like that. What would be some of the thoughts that schema therapy would have in terms of understanding the needs of someone in that position?

Wendy Behary (43:26):

Well, the problem that when you're living with a narcissist and you have defectiveness shame schema, you have self-sacrifice schema, meaning that you forfeit your needs in order to satisfy the needs of others to a degree that becomes exaggerated, right? Where you either feel guilty if you don't, or you feel resentful after a while for doing so much for people who have abandonment schema where there's a fear of being rejected and being alone or deprivation where you fear that no one will ever really, you believe that no one will ever really love you or see you or support you in the ways that you need because that's been your life experience. If you're living with a narcissist under these conditions, this is a powerful and painful regular occurrence in your life. Because this individual is so capable of being impulsive, of acting out in ways that are hurtful of becoming cynical and critical when they don't get their way, when you disagree, when you have your own point of view. So it really does mean squelching your voice and being highly subjugated. And so it's like your life story keeps replicating itself as if it's true. And unfortunately it's just so complicated because it's happening. Well unfortunately, because you're, you're paired with a narcissist.

Todd Zemek (44:42):

What are some of the principles that you offer in terms of how you go about communicating practically with someone?

Wendy Behary (44:48):

The two core elements of my book, I think number one, learn everything you can about narcissism because it is one of the most liberating things you can do for yourself, especially if you have insecurity, sense of defectiveness. If you've been blaming yourself for so long, or you've bought into the gas lighting and the, the spell that the narcissist can cast. So learn everything you can about narcissism, learn it from sources that are not just all about demonizing the narcissism but can really teach you their makeup. And the second part in terms of communication skills is the use of empathic confrontation. So the more you know and understand narcissism, the better your empathic skills will be. And again, let's just be really clear. Empathy is not sympathy, empathy is not compassion, empathy is understanding. It means that you've made sense out of something so much so that you can see why X leads to Y leads to Z.

(45:46):

You can see why the narcissist does what they do. It doesn't excuse it, it doesn't say it's okay and it doesn't sympathize. It just says, I get it that you were raised to believe that if you meet certain marks, you can shout, you can scream, you can do whatever you want. But here comes the confrontation, right? The empathy is, I see you, I get you, but you can't do that with me because it's hurtful. And I know that might be confusing for you because it's not the message you learned, but it is the way the world works and it doesn't work for me. When you're in a constant state of putting me down or not allowing me to have a voice, I'm going to have a voice and it's my responsibility to make sure that happens. So I'm not doing this dance anymore, I'm done with the dance. Now that's a very firm limit setting empathic confrontation. There's so many variations on empathic confrontation that I've written about, that I speak about. And, but the gist of it is understand as much as you can because it allows you to go, ah, yes, well it makes sense that it'd be hard for you to give up the spotlight right now cause you're so accustomed to that and that's not your fault, but it is your responsibility to do something about that. If we're going to have a relationship that really works.

Todd Zemek (47:07):

I can see how being therapeutically supported would be so helpful to be able to do that balancing act. I imagine if you are using those social perspective taking skills, those, those empathy skills that would feel like firm a ground for people, that this was justifiable so therapeutically, it could be amazing for people. And, and I guess it sounds like there's a, an educative part there for the narcissist as well, that there's potentially a desensitizing process that this person has exposed something of their vulnerability and that stones might be thrown or might be mocked or might be abandoned to some degree, but they could come back to normalizing the fact that these discussions about vulnerability are actually perhaps not as threatening as we may have thought.

Wendy Behary (47:52):

And it won't be magical, you know, it won't happen quickly that because you're using empathic confrontation, everything changes. It is very difficult to have the kind of enduring change that one would long for in the relationship without some professional help. But again, if your narcissistic partner is on the more mild end of the spectrum, you can, as I like to say, drop little seeds in the soil and you might get a harvest over time, but it will take time and patience and repetition. You've got to change the dance, you've got to change the language. You've got to become an advocate for yourself who refuses to engage in that conflict. Cuz for the narcissist, once they can bait you and get you into the conflict, they're home free. Again, that's their world of competition and winning. And so the more you're saying, I'm not doing this or I'm not, you know, I know you're upset.

(48:45):

I know this is important to you and I believe it's important for the sake of our relationship, but I'm not going to have this conversation under these conditions and with this tone when we can do it respectfully, I'll come back and then you depart, you exit the conversation. So it's just a real, you know, setting limits, drawing the line, still valuing perhaps the essence or the intention to have an important conversation, but not willing to do it under these conditions where I'm going to be demoralized. It's a good model for the narcissist, but it's also a very important message about what will and will not be tolerated any longer. It's a big part of what we do in the treatment room as well.

Todd Zemek (49:27):

So it's not a betrayal at all for someone to be talking about these situations. Often, you know, if people don't have a strong sense for themselves, they don't feel that they have sufficient value to be talking about their experience or feel like they're talking negatively about their partner, but rather, but that's, that's going to be an essential part if the relationship's going to survive and grow to be supported with yourself to help someone feel safer with that. I like what you were saying in terms of that we're framing the expectation of someone working with their partner in this way, that it's not going to be that I have this one strategy that's going to be the key that's going to unlock straight away. We're actually changing the, the relationship incrementally through the process of relating over time. Yes,

Wendy Behary (50:07):

Indeed. And there's one other piece, this is the harder part, in fact, well, they're both hard. I mean, first you have to sturdy your spine in order to engage in empathic confrontation. You need to really have that internal advocate that is caring for you and helping you to be able to take a stand and draw the line and not angrily. Angrily is not the same as sturdily. You know, being sturdy means I'm speaking in this tone of voice, anger is exhausting and anger suggests that, you know, unless I can pull up my fire, then I have no power at all. And that gets exhausting after a while. And it's not the same as just knowing in this very felt sense that I'm entitled to have respect and I'm entitled to have loyalty and honesty and trust and openness. I'm entitled to, to intimacy. When you know that really in a soulful level, it's very different than knowing it from just an intellectual point of view or not knowing it at all.

(51:06):

Another hard issue, and this is a bit of a phenomenon, I think, is when the narcissist does show some promise, a little hope, they do stop dancing that way they are able to say, yeah, I can imagine that must have felt lousy when I did whatever they did. You want to reward that. Now a lot of listeners go reward that. I'm not rewarding them. They get enough praise and that's all they're all about is their adulation and praise. And the answer is yes, stop praising them for their $5,000 suit and their $300,000 car, but praise them rather for their ordinariness, for the ordinary average courtesies of being human. You don't have to throw a party. You can also say it with preemptive cautious optimism, right? You can say, I know we have a long way to go and I'm still scared about where we stand in terms of restoring our faith in this relationship, but I do want to say that I really appreciated the way you just owned that. You just took responsibility for that and you were trying to sense what it was like for me. So thank you for that. That's huge.

Todd Zemek (52:16):

That's so intimate. That is so intimate. So

Wendy Behary (52:19):

Intimate, yeah, but hard to do for partners who are so frightened that if I give just a little nibble, then I'll get the rug pulled out from under me. Which is why I often coach them to use this kind of preemptive entry, right? Yes. Use a little pre preamble.

Todd Zemek (52:36):

That process could be perhaps not so reliable, could be on and off, could be successful on one occasion, and then devastating on the next. I really like that in terms of starting to build the scaffolding to be human with somebody in terms of, like you were saying, you know, the, the potential for partners at the mild end might be, you know, a little easier to engage with. What about the more extreme end in terms of the potential of, you know, emotional or even physical abuse? Where are the lines in terms of safety?

Wendy Behary (53:06):

Well, I think safety's always the priority. I think that if there's pushing, shoving, hitting threats of any of that, emotional threats, physical threats, violence, volatility, escalations, breaking things, hurting pets, anything in that area of domestic violence, that's number one. Meaning all bets are off. Safety has to be first. Securing yourself to a safe place, to an order of protection, if you must, and I encourage people to do that, is necessary. There have to be consequences. There will be no change. I mean, there's not even a promise of change with consequences, but there's no promise of change ever without consequences. And your life in the life of your children is also at risk. Your mental health is at risk, your emotional health is at risk. So, you know, safety's always first with the more aggressive, volatile, gaslighting, threatening narcissist. One has to take steps, perhaps legal intervention in order to set the stage for whatever's going to come next.

Todd Zemek (54:10):

And again, a great need for external support. And in terms of even just thinking through that process in terms of modern culture, imagine these are questions that you get asked constantly, and I've intentionally not used the word Trump and tell me how, but in terms of modern culture, where does narcissism fit in terms of American culture? For example, every country has, has its own character and its own strengths and challenges. Yeah. What would your thoughts be on that?

Wendy Behary (54:38):

Oh boy. I mean, I think we are probably very high on the narcissism scale. And I think that, you know, when I wrote my first edition of my book back in 2008, there were really a handful of books for the popular reader or therapist, even therapists will read the book as well as those in the general readership. But you know, there were the old classics and the old clinical pieces, texts that have been around forever on narcissistic personality disorder, but to just speak about narcissism and relationships and something geared towards partners and people dealing with them. There was very little, when I wrote the second edition of my book, which was only, I don't know, seven years later, eight years later, there were probably 300, and I'll bet now there's 3000. I mean, it just continues to populate the, the bookshelves when it comes to topics of interest.

(55:33):

And I think celebrities, politicians, athletes, social media, it has really risen. You know, the good news is that there's an awakened awareness to this idea about narcissism. So people now are not just talking about it in clinical settings, they're talking about it at their kitchen table. The unfortunate reality around that is that almost everyone now is a narcissist <laugh>. So, which is why I, I love having questions like yours, Todd, that I can answer that try to set the record straight a little bit. Not everyone is a narcissist because they have moments where they are feeling proud of themselves or they're a little show off-ish or bold that doesn't make them a narcissist. And we want to be careful not to see narcissist through that lens that the popular culture is defining as Satan or demons. And they're not Satan’s, not demons. They will do things that hurt you, as I said.

(56:26):

But it's not the same as the intentional, hurtful behaviors that will come out of sociopaths and psychopaths. You know, what we call the antisocial personalities. It's very different. It's not that the narcissist doesn't have any morality or they don't have that moral compass, it's that they have so much shame that will cause them to deny, to dismiss and to ruin you if they have to in order to spare their ego. But not because they're calculating ways that they can get pleasure out of creating pain. So I think it's important to differentiate these types. But I do think that here in this country, the whole egocentricity in our culture has contributed to vast numbers of narcissistic individuals who sadly act as role models in many cases.

Todd Zemek (57:10):

Lovely to hear you talk about the humanity of these people. I remember reading Stephen Johnson's book, character Stars, who did another, another book just on narcissism, and I remember he opened that by saying, some of my best friends are narcissists. And so it's, it's lovely in, in terms of your capacity to humanize these people who, who haven't been humanized

Wendy Behary (57:29):

And many who have a heart of gold. And people listening to me, a lot of times I'll get some pushback from those who have been terribly wounded by the narcissist, whether it was a narcissistic father who just destroyed their childhood, or a narcissistic partner that they've been with for so long. And they've just finally emancipated themselves. They didn't want to hear anything about the humanness of that narcissist who has ruined their life and may still be hurting their children in some way. And yet, I will still persist to say, the more you understand it, don't feel sorry for them. I don't feel sorry for the narcissist. I feel a sadness for the wounded part of them. I feel an understanding and a sensibility around how they become the way they do, but to just hang in that place of demonizing them again, it's distorted and it's exhausting after a while to have to be mad all the time

Todd Zemek (58:27):

If that inner protector is still working so, so hard.

Wendy Behary (58:31):

Yeah, I get that. 

Todd Zemek (58:33):

So I routinely recommend your book. I'll definitely be putting links to that in the show notes in terms of people finding out more about your work in terms of your website. Best that they go to disarming the narcissist.com.

Wendy Behary (58:47):

Oh, thank you for asking. Yeah, there's lots of free resources, lots of good podcasts and interviews like yours and reading materials on my website that you can just put in, Wendy Behary or disarming the narcissist.com. There's also, on the homepage, there's an access link for those that might be interested in learning more about schema therapy. We have a monthly online community in getting more support and education and resources on narcissism. I also have an online community called Loving, leaving and Living with the Narcissist in Your Life, and it's all there on my website.

Todd Zemek (59:23):

Sounds like that covers a lot. You've certainly got a number of YouTube videos as well for people to check out and get more of a sense of you. Thank you for your time today. I'm so impressed by both the compassion and how practical what you offer is. And by, you know, clearly you've walked your walk and it shows. So I'm sure that people listening have definitely experienced that in, in our conversation today, so. So thank you so much, Wendy.

Wendy Behary (59:47):

Thank you so much, Todd. I appreciate that. I appreciate being with you and your thoughtful questions. It's really been lovely.

Todd Zemek (59:53):

I've enjoyed it too. Thanks again.