This is a podcast aiming to provide positive messaging and inspiration for men, including guidance for the host's two young daughters. The guest, John Peck, discusses challenges faced in predominantly male environments, the importance of sensitivity, and the need for positive role models for men.
Key Takeaways
The podcast focuses on positive messaging and inspiration for men and aims to help those who need it, regardless of gender or background.
John Peck highlights the challenge of balancing energy and sensitivity in predominantly male environments, such as the police and the Army.
Male-female groups tend to have a more sensitive and different dynamic compared to all-male groups in discussions.
There is a need for more positive role modeling and support networks for men in society.
The conversation touches on the difficulty of understanding each other's experiences between men and women.
The host's intention is to help men who aspire to be better by providing positive role models and combating negative behaviors.
The guest's book, "How to Adventure: The Seven Seas to Success," is promoted.
This is a podcast aiming to provide positive messaging and inspiration for men, including guidance for the host's two young daughters. The guest, John Peck, discusses challenges faced in predominantly male environments, the importance of sensitivity, and the need for positive role models for men.
Key Takeaways
The podcast focuses on positive messaging and inspiration for men and aims to help those who need it, regardless of gender or background.
John Peck highlights the challenge of balancing energy and sensitivity in predominantly male environments, such as the police and the Army.
Male-female groups tend to have a more sensitive and different dynamic compared to all-male groups in discussions.
There is a need for more positive role modeling and support networks for men in society.
The conversation touches on the difficulty of understanding each other's experiences between men and women.
The host's intention is to help men who aspire to be better by providing positive role models and combating negative behaviors.
The guest's book, "How to Adventure: The Seven Seas to Success," is promoted.
hello 4b2, 4 billion and two this podcast is about four billion men and two little girls at the moment but two women later on. This is my really a podcast hobby, a project I want to do to try to focus on positive messaging positive inspiration outlook for men and that's why four billion because there's quite a lot of them in the world and just to make it not exclusively man it's also for my two little girls to have some guidance and hopefully some ideas as they grow up it is a safe space for all that everybody is welcome and I encourage anyone to share this and and share the messaging here because my idea is to try and help men which involves everybody trying to do that, so men who need help need help from everybody so regardless of gender sex background anything so this is all about positivity and I hope that everyone moving forward understands that because it is a sensitive topic and I recognize that my first guest today is the first guest of my other podcast when building and I'm so happy again to have him on John peck so John if you can take a moment just to introduce yourself in case people didn't listen to my previous podcast my first episode just take a moment to introduce yourself who you are what's your background and how do you get to where you are today yes okay Nick it's it's great to join you on this very courageous very courageous project I think we were both talking briefly before we came online and you know it is a very very sensitive area and I and you know I suppose most people would back away from it because we could very easily say something that could be you know felt to be very inappropriate and you know in our naivety as men we could say something with good intent and it might be seen as kind of you know being kind of you know really unpleasant and unpleasant but you know naive perhaps really so I'm coming into this with with it with the trust anybody who listens to this is is going to pick up my my thoughts as they appear in my head right now but I wouldn't really want to kind of have to defend them too much reading I guess so they're a bit like a dialogue really I don't think it's like an only I can talk as a being a male I can't talk about you know I know nothing about transgender really I can't speak for them I'm sure they have different conversation I can't speak for women I I hope bit of an understanding of of what what happens right and my life also has been I suppose predominantly male dominated as much as you know I went to a male boarding school and was there for goodness knows 10 years or something and I then became a male army officer in an all-male domain at that time for a few years then became a police officer in the London you know within the Metro on police which is undertaking some terrible terrible reviews at the moment and and ended up very senior and again in that all male domain really and yet I kind of view some of the successes I had in in those years as having quite a a kind of developed sensitivity which I'll perhaps talk about later which allowed me to do a lot of things that I wasn't able to otherwise do and also that has trickled into my family I think as well and my role as a father but again perhaps we can talk about that later so so I'm kind of you know I suppose I'm a Management Consultant now working with teams taking senior teams away doing kind of meaningful work with them helping them turn their business around and which is very mixed gender and my team is mixed gender so so that's the work of really exciting when I'm not doing that I'm doing Adventures running across the Atlantic Ocean and and doing a bunch of other crazy stuff Adventures Adventures of once or not and curiously enough I'm just coaching for women who are rowing across the Atlantic in 18 months time which is a wonderful project for me to do so I'm kind of hugely ex I'm excited by your projects and I I'm excited to be your character by your karishniken and taking this on and I just hope that people who watch it will do will do so with the sensitivity that I know you have so well done yeah I totally appreciate that and yeah well we'll see I guess I'm I'm sure there's going to be someone who's not happy but if if the majority understand the positive intent and the definitely sensitive intent that we have and hopefully it'll it'll help someone and if it helps one person this is what I've said before if it helps at least one person and doesn't hurt others then it's it's been a success so yeah I I totally totally recognize that you you have very sensitive Outlook and approach and I know that your your intent is fully fully positive but let's jump straight in so what I wanted to really ask first and foremost is like challenges what are the challenges given that you've worked in this very male environment in fact and you've also even mentioned but you're also a father of three boys so you've also got that element of your life it's very male heavy as well so I was interested to know from your perspective what are some of the challenges you've seen and you've maybe faced yourself but you've seen in your work facing mainly men like you know things that are kind of male exclusive or predominantly men related sure okay so if I look at in a work environment and and I think back particularly those days in the in the police and also in the Army when men men are together they they fuel each other up with with a lot of energy and a lot of get up and go as indeed as indeed women would as well and and they they seem to sort of draw energy of maleness from each other which allowed them to go on and take risks and do stuff that's really quite quite difficult I understand that really well I spend a lot of time in male company and and understand that the danger for them of course is that they go over the top and they and they become kind of their thoughts become kind of ridiculous and a very negative so I and and my job I guess as a senior please the leader particularly at that late stage when running a police station which was not which was in the time of the troubles in in London was to actually not to bring that malice but to bring a kind of a much more of a tenderness to the role which enabled me to be able to have conversations with people in the community in a much more effective way than than than the much more traditional male way let's say and that and then it enabled me to open lots of doors which otherwise I don't think would have been open so I think at work you know it is really critical for men they're able to to open both sides of themselves and a lot of the stuff we're reading now is very much about as a senior leaders being able to open up ourselves to people and show that kind of in a weakness of your lying sensitivity so I think that's quite interesting so that that's kind of was very much my role and when I'm working with groups and teams that's what we try and do basically is to is to get those kind of much more tender conversations going on apart from obviously bringing the business to move forward but it's actually getting people to work very closely with each other in that way and people sometimes say you're to me you're sometimes more like a woman than a man in the way you you operate which is interesting then of course so we talk about the challenges faced by men so we're talking about work and then of course you know in a family you know how do you what is your role as a father and how do you do that and I think for men that's that's quite difficult now to be tender and actually then to be strong you know as a father which sometimes gets neglected and leaves people children be uncontained I think and then so in families and in relationships and perhaps we'll talk about a little bit later but you know how can we how can we manage our maleness in a relationship in a way that allows us to be kind of potent enough to do what we have to do and yet not be impotent and and I think that's interesting and finally in life I mean who am I kind of what am I here for and how how can we manage when when every night we watch television and we see an appalling examples of senior man in organizations behaving so badly you know towards women and and what do we deal with the collective guilt that we carry from watching that you know from our embarrassment as a man and particularly for me as a senior police officer in London I mean how am I feeling right now about the terrible things that we see presented in front of us and you know and and that really is I think that's really quite difficult for us as a person and particularly as a man in respect to this particular aspect so and then finally you know the pressures how can I conduct myself in life within a prescribed pattern of correctness I'm not talking about political credits I mean generally the need for us to be correct in the way we present ourselves without falling over tripping up so I do think that's really I think that puts a lot of pressure on it and then it should do as well and anyone watching this would say well quite right too you know it should happen but the reality is I'm not sure that women had that same pressure they have other pressures of course it's far more important pressures but I'm not sure they have that same pressures around correctness that men are having their life is so interesting I I gave John just to give everyone who's listening a heads up I gave John these questions like a couple of guideline questions about 20 minutes before the call and he's already like knocked them out of the park I'd say like you're clearly just had a little thinking that's a beautiful set of beautiful set of answers I I think one thing that's interesting within your answers you talked about tenderness and I'd love to go back to that like more dig a little more what tenderness means but one thing I would say about all of those answers sort of stereotypes and what the stereotypes were in the policing and what it was meant what how you were meant to be in the army or the the police and how you know what it means to be a police officer as well as just a man like or whatever the the stereotypes that we have in our cultures especially in the West let's let's frame it from our point of view like of what it is to be a man that's I think shifted as well and I think that shift alongside this sort of pressure of how to conduct oneself we're now having to relearn some of the things as a society that we've we've been brought up to to see differently maybe or see in a different way and I agree with you it's right it's right that we should change and adapt but it is a challenge because it's especially facing men how do you what do you think to those stereotypes and the previous ones as well well I I think it's I I think a lot of it's around unders trying to understand what's going on and I I was I went I was running a very busy police station in London I moved to another police station which wasn't as busy but it gave me the opportunity the the you know in running this place it gave me the opportunity to work to do a course at a place called The Tavistock Institute of human relations and and and so I would sit you know every Tuesday evening you know with a bunch of people who were from very different environments I mean mainly mainly female mainly from social services and things and and and I kind of I learned a lot and during that I invited someone to come and do some work with one of our shifts of police officers and they were able to get really deep conversations happening around the the tenderness and the the sensitivity and the difficulty of their work and and it taught me and she and I went on to do a master's degree studying the whole piece around you know organization Behavior I think I was going to write my document as a dysfunctional behavior in the metrobank police or something until my supervisors have an effect don't do that it won't be a very wise idea but 25 years ago it was 25 years ago but I remember him saying to me my supervisor saying to me well I bowled into his office one day when my supervisor of this master's degree I was doing part-time and he said to me one day John you know you guys are doing a fantastic job in the police in London oh thank you very much that's very unusual for you to say something like that and he said yeah you are because you're you're like you're like a repository for us all non-police us to put our unwanted thoughts and feelings into you to displace them from ourselves so we don't have to confront them and put them into you and I think there is something of that going on right now there seems to be a sense to me that the the the the place in London having done some some people having done some really bad things and of course shouldn't be properly punished for them and the terrible things that we've heard of which are almost unthinkable but I wonder what it's like for those really good people those really good men and women who are having to constantly take the Flack now in the street and have no trust in the tour you know people I know would say they wouldn't women so they wouldn't go to the police officer if they're in trouble you know and I just think a Dreadful thing and I think it's a bit of that is happening around this gender thing about where women quite rightly are having to kind of step up and you know make a point of of you know of of the unfairness and the bad behavior of men but this seems to me there's no way or no way for men to respond to that really I I can't see it apart and change their behavior which is obviously what this is all about you know which is incredibly important but how can men respond to that and and and what sense can they make of of their life yes they're decent people which most people are you know one of the things I did learn was some stuff from Carl Jung around the he talks about the animals the Animas and the animal within us okay and and it and it sounds complicated it's not that complicated but basically it's the kind of the maleness and the femaleness there's nothing to do with gender or sex or whatever that lies within all of a sudden the suggestion is oh young that women will carry you know apart from their own kind of femaleness but we will carry the Animus within them the alternative Shadow side of them will be animus and the shadow side of and when we were when we were young we were old you were probably scared as well that I was a son you know really kind of scared of of her animus if you like which made it very difficult for me as I grew up to through life as a man because I decided that women were very angry women were something to avoid at all costs you know so it was not a pleasant thing to have to experience and it took me a very good therapist and you know quite a bit of money to actually get the hell out of that space and to and to face up to the fact that everybody can be angry or you know whatever because I do think it's quite difficult for men in in trying to their relationship with a with an angry partner I'm only talking about male female here let's not get complicated without the agenda that'd be another discussion which sound you could have but I'm not I'm not qualified talk so how can how can and my wife and I as part of our therapy was to to to understand from very good therapists it's quite okay to be angry and I'd learned and she'd learned through her parents that being angry is not a safe place to be so we had to be taught how to be angry no and that for a man was quite hard it's really it's a it's a very interesting it's a very interesting point and again I feel I'm even nervous I'm nervous in this conversation I'll be open about it you know I'm I'm trying hard to make sure we you know I help you to guide your thoughts as much as I can like so that we remain in this safe space of not upsetting people but it's obviously it's it's we're starting to talk about men women and and differences in in those ways and and I think it's right that we have to do that because in in a way you know men's experience and men's men's challenges are coming from whatever this is whatever whatever those differences are like whether it's the testosterone that's causing through us in a higher volume or whether it's the differences in animals Animal like you're saying and I think it's it's I'm just I'm kind of wanting to verbalize that I'm nervous about it because I I don't I really don't want to also feel like we're saying sweeping generalizations about you know men and so we've been generalizations about women and that's that and we've got some answer I think your point here is you said how can how are we supposed to respond to these things you know and I I think that is one of the most fundamental challenges we as individuals are not very good and then I'm talking about everybody now as a species like we're not very good at understanding ourselves of reflecting and understanding our our sort of core behaviors and our core responses to things you know our natural anger our natural outrage and these these emotions they bubble up from nowhere like we can't like unless you get really conditioned it's difficult to sort of spot it's difficult to control and I think like you said understanding other people and their behaviors is is really really important but it's also very difficult and I'd say as well like this I think that's one of the big challenges we're facing like linked to what you're saying it's like we have all these examples of what we definitely don't want to be right we have them displayed to us a lot in media and in the way in which these like movements are coming in which are again rightly so you know we should be aware of these negative things we should be conscious of them and and fighting all fighting to you know get rid of them but the problem is that we don't have a lot of positive framing of how we are differently you know we don't the the framing of like these traits that you've just sort of briefly described and things there's not a lot of positivity framed around those things like where are they useful in modern day where where is a sort of a traditional stereotypical man trait useful in in nowadays sure okay we might be physio physiologically stronger on average so we maybe can pick up the some block or something like more easily but you know but in reality that's not modern day that's not like a that's not going to give us enough to be really useful in society and in a in a constructive way so I just wanted to kind of like I wanted to give you a set another nod to the safe space but also sort of the the angry woman thing I think you're right I think there is something there but it's also this like the anger between people and the way in which we feel sometimes we're being taught or or told we're supposed to like dampen these things down we're supposed to you know not don't don't Shout at the kids don't show angry you know you mustn't show any anger and and you mustn't frighten people so well that's that makes sense you know logically it makes sense don't frighten kids that makes sense you shouldn't frighten kids but sometimes you know kids are really annoying and you boil you know your blood's boiling and you're shouting and then you know and then what what does that mean and how are you then as a human like what does that mean about you I don't know I'd rather throw that ball at you really good I think for for a couple and you know you and I both have a female partner but you know wives but I think for a couple the work is in trying to deal with these Dynamics and and so my work was in trying to deal with my kind of patheticness in not being able to handle anger I was able to handle it with men but for some memories and I wasn't able to hand it the women now that's do you see what I mean that's not the woman's fault it's my fault and I'm sure that women would equally have difficulty if they'd had a experience with a very angry father or whatever and you know that that would have difficulty but so for all of us I think it's about working on relationships in a way that allow these things to for us to be as good as we possibly can with each other and and to not be dragged into those things that are amygdala is kind of going watch out watch something terrible is going to happen yeah and to be able to be a bit more emotionally mature you know and and you know whether it's not over your man or woman being able to exercise the animals and the animal and I think that's where I kind of pull away from Young because I don't think it's necessary that the elements belong to men the animals and the animals should be in the man and the animal you know the both should be you should be able to exercise both of them and and you know otherwise the difficulty is you you end up running away you know and men will run away they'll run away and find reasons not to be around you know okay and that's not no I agree so let's switch it to a little positivity now let's try and let's try and like look at some some of the positive stuff so I wanted to revisit that tenderness comment because I think that was really interesting and I want you to dig a Little Deeper on what that means to you because you said about in you said in the police you said about tender conversations tenderness bringing tenderness to the role and you also said something about you being more of a a woman and I can't really say a woman more than a man in in that style I'm wondering like if you can talk around that but also where does that come from in you is that confidence in yourself or what hmm that that's a that's a great question where does it come from because you know theoretically with my whole male dominated background that would you know that would be unnatural I think I was lucky to involve to to to marry a very emotionally intelligent woman who who's helped me enormously in my development and and then also I got kind of very interested in the topic and and extremely good therapist who who helped me get through it but I've said but the the interesting thing is let me give an example of how it can manifest itself okay and I can be brief on this but the kind of long story short about 15 years ago 10 years ago what it was I I was had the privilege of of working with some inner city leaders who work on the front line as a charity you know in Charities working on the front line youth leaders with the people you know predominantly from inner city gangs and they were wonderful people they taught me so much but I remember coming to the end of a session and one of the The Men Who was maybe in his very early twenties came up to me and said to me oh I sort of preempted by saying my middle one my middle side both my young Sons used to work with me in this work and the middle one used to work very closely with me with groups so often we'd be gonna help you pick up a mountain and I'd be gonna have a mountain we'd see each other and wait up and down through the Mist and and as as he as we approached each other you go oh Dad and he come over and give me a big Contour and what other one of the guys who've been on the course and the inner city guys came up to me and said you know you've taught me so much I was okay that's very nice and he said no no he said you've taught me a lot about being a father and I was going how because I haven't talked about the advice and I've just watched you with your son I've watched you cuddle him and I've watched the affection from you that you have for each other he said I don't that hasn't entered in my life he said I've got a child but I've sung but I wouldn't it would never crossed my mind you know I don't see this boyfriend I wouldn't have crossed my mind when I do see him to give him a cuddle like that as a father so so that stuff does spread you know and and on courses we my team are always cuddling each other you know in a love in a loving way a very appropriate way you know hey when you see how you doing mate you know and and it's quite fun I think the clients are quite enjoy it you know because we can kind of encourage that warmth and openness and so I think we can we can demonstrate it and with my children even in their angry teenage years when they were growing I'm not angry but you know they're you know crazy teenagers whenever we dropped off in the car they'd always give us a kiss before they went men boys you know in their teens with all their mates around them and I think I think that's that's what we can do yeah yeah we can demonstrate better behaviors than and we would have learned when when we were younger you know we can when our father my father I remember giving him a cuddle and he looked absolutely horrified as if I was gonna I don't know what you thought was gonna happen he sort of shrunk back I thought yeah because he sent me the boarding school to tough me up that was his thing because I got to Elvis sisters and he said you know you need to toughen up toughen up and you know I'm saying to send me off send me off the boys in school for 10 years you know and so that's the way it was it's a good point because it's physical physical affection is something we all crave human beings crave it's something that we I think have built in and men don't spend a lot of time you know they spend a lot of time with the polite we're saying this looking feeling like they want to have sex let's I'm trying to think of the most appropriate way of saying this I think we as we have a lot more of that generally than women I've I've at least from what I understand my lived experience certainly that seems to be the case but it but it's it's that physical it's the intimacy which is also it's not just about you know the sex it's about the intimacy I think we're craving I think one of the challenges that men generally face as well is there's been a lot of historical prejudice against you know a lot of homophobia right and certainly when I grew up when I was younger it's kind of normal to be like quite homophobic and not necessarily really hating people or going out of your way to like hurt people or anything but just negative behavior you know I'm ashamed of it now but it also I'm it's cognizant that it was of our time you know I'm sure there was gay guys around me at my all-boy school and they were like would have kept themselves completely quiet because it would have been awful for them to come out at that time you know and I'm very happy very very happy that that's changed nowadays and you know I think a lot of a lot I mean there's still homophobia but there's a lot more young kids who are much more like take everything as they go you know whatever like it doesn't matter that you're what your sexual preference is and things but I think with that that stuff because of that negative historical sort of legacy of homophobia and and what men can do to one another that is you know appropriate or allowed in society I mean I'm thinking of like the way you watch people hugging each other now units there's a lot of like this hand slapping big slap on the back type of thing but even that's like it's it shows affection it shows the closeness and I also I'm a big hugger you know I hug hug people hopefully appropriately all the time but it's but I think men men do need that as well and I think that's something which we I mean I do Jiu Jitsu now which is like you know I always joke with my wife it's like basically going to a to a gym and hugging a man for an hour and a half or usually a man lying about hugging each other trying to not to break each other's arms but but but it is it is interesting how that gives me something that I that I kind of need like a closeness a connection you know it's like it's nothing sexual at all it's a it's a closeness of someone the connections I'm just interested about that like I feel like that's something maybe the tenderness gets shown as well through those type of things and we we lack that whereas girls generally much more affectionate in that way they'll touch one another they'll there's no Legacy yes in that way and I think it's also slightly complicated I don't dance over country but you know I found it easier sometimes cuddle men because I sometimes worry if I cuddle a woman who knows this felt to be inappropriate you know am I kind of cuddling right right or you know so it starts cuddling a distance and you know because you know one of these yeah yeah or something you know but there we are it's but I you know if you look at the good research absolutely yeah sorry yeah you know if you look at the result you go you go sorry Uncle you said look at look at the research start look at the research again yeah I mean if you look at the research around kind of monkeys you know and or chimpanzees if they put them in a setting where they they haven't been cuddled you know by their mother and they put a like a post wrap around with a cloth and you know they'll go and cuddle the posts I mean it's so you know so you know I think it's great I think it's really good I think that's something has men that we can show lead on you know and and that does help enormous man and also being able to express our our tenderness and insecurity is is very and if I think of my three boys they're they're really really good friends of mine and I don't think there's there's very little they don't know about me you know that that I wouldn't as I haven't shared with them if I assume we took a lot in feelings as well and they're three strong men you know they yeah and the conversations they will have with their friends will be like that deeper more interesting I feel like you've got you you've given them you and your dad as well I think we talked about that in the previous podcast your dad is a very very inspirational man and I think you know probably that's an and your mum as well you know she was yes maybe she was angry to be honest I remember Auntie Yvonne as having very bad hearing because I think I was so young when she was older you know so she's just very bad hearing and used to sort of talk very loudly because of it so as I remember her being very loud not necessarily angry but but yeah so your dad and her together probably really good Role Models I would say and that's something else I think role modeling Behavior that's something I'm going to look into more and more in this hopefully in this sort of sequence of talking about men and because I I see some of the role models now that a lot of men are flocking to the Andrew Tates of the world and I think we briefly talked about him and and you know Jordan Peterson's and things there's there's like a lot of it's quite one directional in in in in in in sort of telling men what they should be and how they should be that and it focuses a lot on material wealth and and and and elements of of Personality which to be honest I don't think are going to help men overall I mean and and just for the for the record you know I think some of what Andrew Tate says makes a lot of sense he he's quite a smart guy in the way he's constructed his business and things I personally don't buy into a lot of the more kind of like materialistic stuff and and he he does have some very misogynistic views so I don't like the guy very much but I give him credit for like you know he's constructed something which is obviously creating them a lot of success in money and things and same with Jordan Peterson I really like Jordan Peterson's book I read that I was like that makes sense to me it's a good guide guideline you know and again but he's kind of speaking about other things but people who've jumped onto their kind of bandwagon and listening to them and being completely absorbed by their messaging I worry a little bit that we we lose other role modeling behavior and people like yourself who you know people should be listening to and and and inspired by and yeah I'll plug your book at this point so you've got two books actually so you've got restless and the Seven Seas of success of the adventurer is seven right or nine I've got it I'm not I'm getting it wrong now seven seasons how to add Adventure in your life so John's written two books both of which are excellent the first one is all about his his his adventurous life and the second one is basically like how to be a crazy Adventurer on on steroids basically without steroids but an adventurous life survive yeah yeah so sorry I lost myself because I then started plugging a book but I I was talking about those role models and role modeling Behavior I was wondering if you like how how do you feel about that with regards to you know your dad and you and the role modeling behavior that you've experienced what you described on that on the with the leader teams okay I covered it from if I think a bit from a Leader's leadership perspective I I modeled myself on some really good leaders that I've come across over my life and there was one in particular when I was a young Army also I was waiting for training to become a young army officer now it's a soldier for nine months living in about room with a bunch of crazy crazy dudes you know men and who were off the rail and there's some of them and we had a young we've had various different army officers used to come through and look after us for a few weeks or something and I saw the ones who were just natural leaders and the ones who weren't you know and the ones who were had a real warmth to them and the men couldn't get that straight away they'd engage with them and they'd really follow them over the end of the cliff you know and and so if I think of my role with them as I took them off into the jungles of British Honduras as it was then for weeks at a time on Belize as it's now called yeah on my own with a bunch of soldiers and a sergeant a couple of corporals and my role was to get really close to them and to be a bit of a father figure for them very often I'd write their letters for them and they were you know some quite tender moments and if ever they were in trouble or worried about something my role was to be there as a sort of as a sport and Mentor Forum then everything was fine know their life was good you know we'd go through the tough times together and and they were they would support me and my role you know so I think as leaders that there's some great stuff being written now around how critically important it is for leaders whatever gender to openly share their feelings appropriately and their concerns and their anxieties and their Frailty and so on and and and and if people can do that then instantly works and if I if I'm working with teams as we do very often up in remote Cottages up in the Lake District where there's disarmony in the team we we will deliberate within the first hour encourage people to share some thoughts that are quite sensitive and tender with each other and then we'll work with personality profiles which are well known things like Mars bricks and many many other different versions of that where where they can talk about the issue of you know what Young talked about as thinking and feeling and this is basically what we're talking about here the Animus and the animal are in different words and when people then understand that that we have a natural contingency to operate from a more feeling perspective I think that then they can start to open up with each other and understand and respect each other as individuals so there's a lot that we can do but we have to be listening and kind of really caring about those relationships and once people start doing that if you get a whole team doing that we can take them to the end of the world and now fantastic what the other thing I would say yeah the other thing I would say is that we we occasionally we get an all-male group you know a subgroup because we're working on subgroup six and they're never quite the same as a mixed group when we get a kind of male female group there's a much there's a very different vibe much more sensitive I think very often they'll be very typically we can't make this assumption but often let's just say often there'll be a lot more sensitive discussion taking place and I wonder if I do wonder if it's a case of you know also sometimes in a mixed group for example with women modeling that behavior allowing to be the first one to open up allowing to be the sort of there's a safer space in that way then I feel like you know men and and I often wonder if it's like there's a there's an issue with the fact that because men and women are different in certain ways I think one of the challenges is that often we don't understand one another and there's always been that joke of like you know men don't understand women and whatever you know like all this kind of like stereotypical like laughing about how we don't understand women but I actually feel like nowadays really women don't understand men a lot of the time and and and it's and it you know on the other side as well and I feel like that's actually we're not as simple as people make us out to be you know it's like there's a lot of stereotypes about how simple men are and things and it's like I feel like there's a lot of ways in which we don't even recognize ourselves sometimes of what we need and how we need that tenderness that emotional like understanding that we're coming from an emotional perspective and we work better with that feelings as you said so yeah I do wonder about that and how how we can try and push that a bit maybe in the future is like let's try to help men be more tender and more open but like to get there it's the culture also needs to shift between men between how they interact in in groups and things and it's also not exactly the same as women or even still you know it's still not going to be the same level of emotion necessarily or the same way in which the emotions are framed and the feelings are framed no no I mean I and I'm thinking of you as you're speaking I'm thinking what would the headlines be you know if you if you ventured a program on television or a headline and paper about you know women don't understand I think I think they've been howler derision from from people from men and from women and that's the difficulty from the men who'd be going oh for God's sake people and for many women who are going no you don't know the half of it you know you've talked to me about well I understand them very well very too well maybe they didn't understand themselves so so we shouldn't laugh about it but I'm just saying how difficult it is and and hence this is why I applaud you for having these conversations because you know it it had difficult conversation to happen so yeah I'm sensitive and and that's a shame I don't think it would be the same the other way around I think if women were were to share their thoughts I think there would be far more respect and an understanding and listening I I inclined to agree with you I mean I talked to my wife I mentioned this to you before but I talked to my wife about doing this and having this I you know concept of a podcast or something to just try and help men you know help men who need help and and get some more sort of positive inspiration maybe role models in in front of men who can who need them and and she felt she felt like you know well men have had this for years you know I mean I've got all of these support networks all these these things and I thought well in some ways yes you know historically men have been massively advantaged and privileged and you know especially white men like us you know white older men like us is like you know we've had a lot of privilege in in a lot of different things and as you mentioned before we had a lot of men within our peer groups that have been awful like done awful things continue to do awful things and abuse power and abuse their position and abuse their privilege so for sure like there's there's plenty of ways in which all of that's true except that it's also true that we're having a separate lived experience you know when we we haven't actually got the those of us who aspire to be something better something not representing those awful people and something that is positively contributing towards society as a whole that you know there isn't a lot out there positive role modeling and and I think for women there is a lot more now because of the good work that's been done and continues to be done and should be done in helping women to empower themselves and then in empowering women to to be leaders and and you know and and take a strong female empowered approach but I I do agree I think there's a lot I don't know if I agree because I'm not sure it's 100 what you said I don't want to put words in your mouth in this sensitive topic but I feel like there is a lack of that for men at the moment and yeah hopefully this will help hopefully this will help let's let's see I guess okay listen John I'm gonna let you go because it's been wonderful to talk to you but just before we go let's let's promote your book again because I really feel like we should we should promote that book how to Adventure the seven sea Seven Cs to success pick it up in Amazon it's great excellent read and also Restless you should read his first book which is fantastic as well and go go check him out on the first podcast they ever did and tell me if it was a better interview this time because I kind of listened to back to that interview and I cringed my way through it like talking talking should have let you talk oh no no that's right but but thanks so much okay lovely to talk to you Nick and just keep up a good boy well done for your courage, good man, thanks then