Cliff A. Moustache founded Nordic Black Theater in Oslo Norway together with Jarl Solberg in 1992. He is a Seycellois-Norwegian film director, actor, and playwright. In this episode, we reflect on his lifetime contributions to Norwegian society and his relentless dedication to promoting diverse perspectives in Norwegian theatre. As he navigates through his personal experiences, Cliff takes the time to pay tribute to the impactful role of his mother in his life, sharing personal stories and lessons that have shaped him. He shares his struggles with identity, cultural conformity and the story of reconnection with his roots thorugh theatre. Cliff is an advocate for representation, diversity and inclusion in theatre and film, specifically in Norway. He believes in the immense power of storytelling and its potential impact on the younger generation; emphasizing the role African creatives play in telling their own stories and debunking misconceptions.
So, whether you’re intrigued by african aesthetics, cherish the influence of motherhood, or advocate for diversity in film and theatre; this episode serves as an inspiring and insightful treat.
Instagram: @myafricanaesthetic
Website: https://www.myafricanaesthetic.com/
Cliff A. Moustache founded Nordic Black Theater in Oslo Norway together with Jarl Solberg in 1992. He is a Seycellois-Norwegian film director, actor, and playwright. In this episode, we reflect on his lifetime contributions to Norwegian society and his relentless dedication to promoting diverse perspectives in Norwegian theatre. As he navigates through his personal experiences, Cliff takes the time to pay tribute to the impactful role of his mother in his life, sharing personal stories and lessons that have shaped him. He shares his struggles with identity, cultural conformity and the story of reconnection with his roots thorugh theatre. Cliff is an advocate for representation, diversity and inclusion in theatre and film, specifically in Norway. He believes in the immense power of storytelling and its potential impact on the younger generation; emphasizing the role African creatives play in telling their own stories and debunking misconceptions.
So, whether you’re intrigued by african aesthetics, cherish the influence of motherhood, or advocate for diversity in film and theatre; this episode serves as an inspiring and insightful treat.
Instagram: @myafricanaesthetic
Website: https://www.myafricanaesthetic.com/
Welcome to my African Aesthetic, a podcast that interrogates the African aesthetic in African architecture and design.
Speaker 1:On this podcast, you'll hear about the work, philosophy and design process of African architects and designers practicing in Africa and the diaspora.
Speaker 3:My name is Eunice Nanzala-Shumaker. I'm a Ugandan architect and designer living and working in Norway.
Speaker 1:And my name is Penina Achayu-Laker. I am a Ugandan graphic designer, researcher and educator living and practicing in the USA.
Speaker 3:Our podcast features conversations with designers working to provide architecture and design solutions for Africa.
Speaker 1:We would like this to become a platform where our guests share their knowledge and experiences on designing in the diverse, hybrid and dynamic socioeconomic, cultural and political African context.
Speaker 3:We are looking forward to embarking on this journey with you. Welcome to yet another episode of my African Aesthetic. Today, we're honored to have Cliff Mustache, co-founder and artistic director at Nordic Black Theatre in Oslo, norway. He's such an inspiration to those of us within the creative disciplines in Norway and, I'd like to say, worldwide. Born in Seychelles, he moved to Norway in 1980. In 2019, oslo's mayor awarded Mustache the Artist of the Year honour for his contributions towards Norwegian society and the entertainment industry, becoming the first foreigner to win the award. He also won at its head of price in 2023 for his contribution to Norwegian theatre growing in perspectives, attitudes, scope and artistic content. I admire the work that Cliff and his fantastic team has done entertaining, inspiring and educating us, and we are very glad to have Cliff on the podcast. We are looking forward to this conversation and we hope you enjoy it. Welcome to the podcast.
Speaker 2:Oh beautiful. It's our honor to just be with you in these few minutes we have together. Thank you, Thank you. I'm so happy to share this moment with you today.
Speaker 3:Yeah, we know you had a very hectic day, a lot of productions going on.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it is. Sometimes like that, you know, with production, preparing, and yeah, but that is life, you know, this is the way one chosen to do the work. I have fun at the top of it, you know. So if I got another chance to come back to life, I would do the same thing again.
Speaker 3:I love that. So, cliff, let's get to know you better. Yeah, who are you? Where do you come from? What was your childhood like? What are your best childhood memories, when did your interest for what you do start and how have you transformed over the years?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm born in the Seychelles Island, which is part of Africa, lying on the east part of Africa, and being as a youth, as a child. I have very great memories because I enjoy the memories that have served me or guided me to be what I am today. I think I've been very blessed to have a great family, big family, and at the same time, there was these passions in the family. When you come to several things you know, on number five in the family of seven, you know you're not popular, number five, not number one or two.
Speaker 3:Not the center of attention?
Speaker 2:Yeah, not even the center. But at the same time, you know, there were love in the family. They were always there and everyone to help you. I felt that I, as a child, I was somebody who was always curious about things around me. I just wanted to know more, because I remember we were a British colony and there was only a radio. We had no TV. It was a big radio in the middle of the living room and I was so curious where those the sound of the voices came from. I can't see nobody. You know. I thought about you know, I've been thinking and thinking and thinking and just one day my mom was away and I was left alone. So I opened the radio in the middle of the radio theater, just to see the person you know, because you're a child, you know you. And there was nobody there and the radio died, Of course. So I got scared. I said mom is coming back. What should I do? So I tried to mend.
Speaker 2:I meant I meant everything back, and there was so much terrible thing, I was sweating and the radio didn't even started. And when mom came back six o'clock we all have to listen to the news there was no voice, no sound from the radio. Then she knew at once it was either. You know, it doesn't look at anybody else than me. You say, cliff, what did you do to the radio? I said nothing, man. You say no.
Speaker 2:When I left today, you were inside the house, your brother was outside playing, the radio was on. So I said no, no, I got a beating, a leakage, you know. You know a freaking family out there. You destroy the precious thing you have in the living room. So that was a thing that really kept me going being curious. You know, not only to hear, but what is it somebody's saying, who is saying these things? You know, because it took me years to understand why did I do that? So I thought about that really was a good turning point in my life, because then also I was, my mother was a dedicated atolic woman and we have to. You know, in Africa when your mom is without a dad, you have to follow your man. So even you don't like it, you have to follow that my man. Because so we did that because my brother did that. So I remember once my mom usually go and clean the church on Saturday before the big senders masses and all that. So we usually go with her.
Speaker 2:And there was a Swedish as a colony we had. We had priests from Canada and Switzerland and you name it. So I saw the priests and I questioned him a lot. You know he spoke Latin, I see to when he's reading or the sort of things and I seen, wow, this is, which is very beautiful language. Then he has said to my mother this guy is very interested, maybe he has a kind of our with him. He want to be, to join the church.
Speaker 2:I was only 13. And my mother, who's a very Catholic in herself, he say, oh, that's the thing, I've been waiting my son to be priest, one of my son has got to be priest. So she put me to the missionary school and I learned Latin and then after a while, every Sunday we young, we who is doing the service boy, we use to practice in the evening part of the evangel to read in the in the in the service on Sunday. So that evening was in French. That Saturday night I work and work and work with the priest. He said to more you got 15 minutes, you got to read it. That was attractive.
Speaker 2:Thing that came up is that when I saw all the big people, my head teachers, the judge, the governor and all that sitting in front of me, and then I stood there, put my hands up and they raised, or they all stood up and the priest says something, they finish, I put my hand down and they sat down and I start to read. And then I understood the power of communicating, the power of word, and that's really formed myself on the venture taken. And the third interesting thing is that you got strict, mom. You got to go to school. You got to do that at that time. You got to go to bed at eight o'clock. But every full moon, every full moon, it's a playful night day. So we were allowed, with the family, to go outside and worship the full moon with all the neighbors. We can stay as long as you wish in the night. And then, a bit of the night, there came storytellers. Wow, that was an epiphany. That was a moment. You know, I sat there, we were never tired and we're dying every month to be outside as long as you can on the full moon night.
Speaker 2:So for me, I think I've grown in a very healthy surrounding, getting these beautiful things alongside me and the generation after me. I've never had it, so I've been blessed in a sense, and I thought about that was a venture I really wanted to take to be able to perform, to be able to reach out to share a story, and then it's also what sort of story I'd like to share. The fact is I stayed in England, london and Dorset, in Poole. I really wanted to be an actor, but in my classroom I was only black person and it was very challenging. Even I did my bus, but I never been challenged to go beyond where I really want to be and the professor gave me a role all the time repeating myself. So I was very disappointed with that, but I still.
Speaker 2:I need a kind of someone who I can look at in the theater and theme world, and it was one great Afro-American, one of the greatest of the time actors called Sidney Pache.
Speaker 2:Sidney Pache is the one I think he kept me very much to myself so that I can really continue my study and finish with it, because there was hope, because I never seen anybody else at that time, so that was very important to have an idol you can look up in the troublesome time you have when you're studying. But then, after I finished, because I was really wanted to go to Hollywood. That was my mind. I really wanted to go to Hollywood because I thought I could reach, because, as I've been inspired by him. But the fact is that just before I ended my study, I come to a turning point of my life that I just asked myself questions that what do I want with my life? Then I decided to be able to work with what I want to work with, study directing. That give me also the possibility, the craft, the decisions to choose who I want to work with, to choose which story I would like to tell, to involve the people that were not present at that time on the scenario.
Speaker 2:So then directing came automatically with me, and that also is a turning point in my life which really made me maybe follow the direction to where I am today in Norway. But of course I travel all over Europe, I play on the street theater to survive and all that. But I also have ambition, you know, because there's one great philosopher, writer, called Lonton Huge. He said hold fast to dreams. If dreams die, life is broken, wings bird that cannot fly. So I hold myself to the dream and I'm still holding it, so I can share those stories with the other people coming generations.
Speaker 3:Yes, so let's go back to the seashells At the edge of 10,. How does your street look like?
Speaker 2:Yeah, my street. We had no electricity. It was a lot of English people there and I remember I used to get biscuits every Sunday. If we go to the playground where the British people play cricket and when the balls goes out in the forest we keep up to rent and get it for them, so we get played with biscuits. These are the first bits of biscuits we have, 10 years old. At that time it was exciting because we didn't understood the cricket we were playing running. We didn't know, but it was fun just to go out there in the green forest and get the ball.
Speaker 2:But at the same time my mom always liked us to play, but at the same time she was strict. But at the same time she had a great philosophy. She said when she walked away from my dad with seven children, she risked her whole career by working other work to give us the seven children possibility to go to school. And he said to us education is the tool. Without education you have nothing for the future. So she's a mother, she's a father, she's a mentor, she's got the big love, she's got everything. I mean she can foresee the future of her children. And that was one of the greatest things that I think getting a mom alone, you know, and no matter, even I can say, oh, she beat us that. But I think the strictness also is also her love in the West. We don't understand that. You understand.
Speaker 2:I thought when a woman is all alone by herself with seven children, she ran up to morning to the night to get everything. She need a kind of control about where's my children, what they're doing. Are they doing the schoolwork, are they working there, are they preparing things? So she's got you know, she's like a big director putting everything together. So everything has to go. And look at, my children now have to go to school. I got you know.
Speaker 2:And she wanted us to be clean when we go to school. You know. Clean, you know, never has a hole in our trousers. Make sure that we have the dignity you know feels very proud of what we are when we're poor. All these things were given to us by her and I think a dear Joch then and all on Sunday, after the church finishes, she allowed us after lunch to go out in the forest and play with all the other kids for three, four, five hours. So it's a ritual every Sunday we go out and play out there in the free forest in a sense. So me, I have only great memories, great sort of pictures of collective memories of my grown-up. I've been blessed and been very lucky to have such mother, who's strong, determined and also politics in her, where she was very political in a way, and I think she shaped me, I think. I think, if you ask me about my role model, it should be my mother.
Speaker 1:When someone here they described your mom, they would think they're talking about five people, but we're talking about one person here.
Speaker 1:And I think something that three of us on this call can relate to is having moms who've had to step up to the plate in very hard circumstances. My dad passed away when I was very young and my mom had to make the bold risk to bring us back to that city when a lot of my father's side of the family wanted us kids to be left in the village and my mom said, no, I will go struggle with them in the capital city and see that they get an education. And yeah, I think now that I have my own kids. It's only when I got kids too that I cannot imagine. I'm like how did she do this? Because my two are driving.
Speaker 1:It's really great to hear you talk about your mom that way and one of the things I was going to ask you and you kind of touched on it a little bit is how you've seen those values and the pride that your mom instilled in you find its way into what you do today. Because I think when you describe your mom you're talking about she instilled discipline, but you saw her sacrifice. You saw her be determined to see that her kids got an education and had a chance in life. You saw her embrace the idea of rituals and just wrestling with that and I'm curious how you've seen those values find their way in how you either perceive what you do, your philosophy, your work ethic, how you see those show up today for you.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know, because when you just wrap a little bit about my education and all that, because in social we didn't have university, we have only college, high school, and if you pull you've got no access to go to England for education sake, you know. But luckily I was given the possibility to come over to England. Coming over to England, that was a nightmare because we dreamed about going to England. Because we see, we see, we see the English people, we see how they behave in the social status quo and all that in the sense. And then we talk about wow, this is our motherland. They say England is highland. At that time we're talking about 70s, you know. And when you come to England you're not a citizen of the you gave your passport is citizen of British and Commonwealth. You're not British citizen. That they told you you were, and the education they gave you was something that they wanted you to continue. The way of thinking, you know, in a sense psychologically, is that they give you education so that you can continue doing work for them.
Speaker 2:To me, it was after my school that I decided that what is my life, what is my story, what is my history, what is my art? So I have to dig myself into Africanism, african literature, because they never allowed me at the Conventionary School. So and then I have those memories we call it in my work, it's called photographic memories of the past, of this moment how my mother sat there, she liked to dance, she took us to dance on in some once a month she has some money. We dance the whole night, we come out, go to church the next day. So it was just our life full of happiness. And then you realize those beautiful moment that you just, you just mean, sort of stored it in your mind and you say, okay, these are the beauties which I like to express when I do my work, because it's me, it's my identity, it's what made me what I am. So then it was a kind of transition in my life whereby, even if I can do classical work, I have to have a kind of a kind of awareness. Even I do a classical of Shakespeare, I have to have awareness. Who am I when I'm doing Shakespeare? Because I cannot do a Shakespeare like a British man. I have to Shakespeare as an African, as an African director. So these are the beautiful things that I think, rediscovering yourself, you know, at an olden age, because I didn't.
Speaker 2:I thought about that was the really the best thing for me to do if I'm going to have my own identity, because coming to England I didn't have any identity. I mean I have. I thought I was British because they taught you to be British, they give you a British passport, you know, and then you believe in all that until you find out and practically you were not. You were that guy from Africa, you were a secondhand citizen in England. You know, these are the things that suddenly you realize that, okay, I have to wake up. We can't continue this way. Now I have a chance now to tell the narratives that I like to share and with others and tell that's a bold move to make.
Speaker 3:I think from your surrounding that you were used to, you knew the cultures, like you talk about, these traditions that you had with your father, your mom and your siblings, and from that nest, and then you're planted into this new context and to begin to reflect on yourself. But then I mean people. People have come to different conclusions. You can witness this when people have moved from one country, especially from from, let's say, specifically from Africa to Europe, to the US. People have lost themselves in this process that you've just described in a few minutes. Some people have sold themselves in a way, who you are just to fit in without knowing, and they have to live with a different version of themselves.
Speaker 3:And so I feel like the process of resolving what am I in this new context, what is my assignment now? What do I want to do with myself and how do I want to define myself in this particular point? I think it's a very important discussion for whichever person, whether they're coming as an academic, like you said, whether they're coming into a new context to study and learn, or they're coming into a new context to work, because you said, for example, you're also traveling around Europe and you know doing theaters everywhere. I feel like that conversation happens every time we're introduced as professionals, every time we're introduced to a new context or a new group that you have to evaluate. Who am I in this particular context and how do I want to carry myself within this context? How do I want to do my work? And I see you making this decision quite early. I think it's a bold statement.
Speaker 2:It was because I think there was many ways of recognizing it, because, and you say, is it this life that they taught me at school, that this is this life that I want to perceive further on? It was a point of self-reflection there whereby I thought about why you look to Europe, see all the masses of literatures, nuns coming from Africa, you name them, people, and we said and talked about it in a cultural context in England. These were great stories and then we who never been able to read those great books, suddenly discover those books, those new educations. It reminds me, like we're talking about discovering ourselves. There was a great writer, a visionary from the Caribbean called Emé Sezer. He wrote a book called Return to my Roots, and it means rediscovering yourself in an academy in France. Suddenly, you feel that you are not what you think you were, because this is the way they want you to be. And then you decided that, okay, my identity is where I was born, is where I come from, is the nurture I have, the understanding I have, the stories I have the closer we are, the song we sing together, the dance we dance together. These are the memories that nobody can take from you. It's only you who have it and this. From there you can build your life, your philosophy, your thoughts, your art. Open those things so that we, the children of Africa and Asfora, we need to tell those great stories. We need to tell the people today in the sanctuary that we are rich. For me it means my comics, Dr Martin Luther King and so forth, because I need those in the 70s. I need those to survive and being able to read.
Speaker 2:Those thinkers, those who wanted to change the social avenue want to talk about justification, righteousness, to promote the world of. We people who did not regard us as people of knowledge, people who were working on anybody else, and then we have to fight politically to get their acceptance. And then so many people died for that and we cannot now just give up because they died, because we are here alive. We need to go back and thank our ancestors. We need to go back and think all those people lost their life because today we are able to speak together, we are able to reach out there, we are able to translate a new language, the language of understanding, the language of great stories together. You know, you have followed me so much now because I'm getting carried away by the turds. You know, and it's an important issue to talk about in this time to me.
Speaker 1:I think that's, yeah, that is so powerful and as you're talking and you're so passionate and it's, you know, the end of the podcast, people won't be able to see you, but for us, who you and I have the luxury to be able to see how expressive and how deep this resonates with you.
Speaker 1:I'm wondering if you could share and maybe talk a little bit about how the medium of film and theater just like lends itself to storytelling, like, why this particular way of storytelling? What is it about theater or film that provides that like perfect platform to share?
Speaker 2:And yeah, I think these are two different you know medium because they have different ways, different tools, even we're expressing. So I started with theater and then, because, being in Norway, I did speak the Norwegian language in the beginning They'd never give me a chance. Even I was a director. I saw that at the National Theatre in Norway when they told me that, well, we understand you, we like you, but it's not the problem, you don't speak Norwegian. And then, at the same time, a couple of months after, they got an English director from London to come to the National Theatre and get Norwegian people to work with the guy on Shakespeare. So I said, okay, this is what they are. No, no, no, I can't follow that.
Speaker 2:We now to make decision about in this society where we are, what we would like to start now we write to. We have now the possibility to tell stories that belong to us, to share the stories to our people, the children at school that never heard those stories. This is also education. Theater is education, educational tools. You know, because it is so live, it is so intense and it just theater is magic because it's happening at this moment. If you make mistake, while you're on stage and having a problem in front of the audience. It's too late, so you have to be 100% focused. 100% there.
Speaker 2:Film is on the medium, you can sit down, edit it, put it in pieces, work the aesthetic of it, find your sound until you decide to let it go. Then you know, you pack and wrap and everything is finished and then you deliver there. Theater is cruel. It's liven, it's a liven element. That's why I fell in love with theater because I want to see beauty, I want to tell beauty, I want to discover beauty so that beauty can be shared with our people, touch their emotion and turn them to believe that we have great stories and at the same time, we open the society, we enrich the Nojans society and we open them more than they've been before, without no apology.
Speaker 2:My angelos a citation from her. He said do the best you can until you know better. When you know better, do better. And that's what we try to do all the time. It's never enough. Knowledge is never enough. You're discovering yourself. You're discovering the richness, the beauty, the aesthetic of expression, of sharing, so that we can tell people come in generation. We have responsibility in whatever we do, whatever position we are, and we have responsibility for the future generations.
Speaker 3:Yeah, Cliff, you talk about representation. Your work is centered around that making sure that people are seen and your teams for the different projects are very, very diverse. But I wonder what keeps you going? Where do you get your motivation and what is the way forward for more inclusive theater?
Speaker 2:Yeah, like I say, I have to the strength and the determinations. My mom told me something Believe in what you think is best for you. When you have your belief, you go anywhere. Never change your belief. You have to also find out, discover you're going to make a mistake on the way, but don't be afraid. The mistake will make you grow because you correct yourself to grow. So that for me it has been a lot of tools I've been given from my youth and I've always taken alongside with me.
Speaker 2:But I think I'm tired of begging. We should not be begging. We cannot go and say, please, we are black, give us this. No, no, we have a right to perform. We have a right to tell the stories. We have a right to enrich those countries where our generations are born and bred in it. If we never presented them that beautiful, that love the story, even in the film. You know you can't only put black people in the film because they're black. No, the context should be big, the context should be different. It should be their story, it should be told, written by them. We need to empower more the industries because right now I can see I can see truly that there's a lot of young, coming generations, who are now going to film school, who are taking writing, script writing.
Speaker 2:Now, the first time in the history of Norway, the first time, one girl from Kenya, one girl from Kenya, is now doing the directing school at the academy in Norway. Never before, never before in the history of this country, it had happened. It just happened because when they asked me, the academy asked me you want to be a jury to select people? I said, in one condition only If we can make a change in the selection of student content. Remember, these are one of the big, rich academy. They take three directing students every three years. So I said if not, if you're not Allah, if not a chance of you don't want to change. You can pick anybody to be jury there, because me, I just don't want to lip service like this. You know I can't do that. So at least one out of two, one out of three came first to be directing in this country.
Speaker 2:This is his sweet, this inspiration for coming generation. And they look up and say, oh, I got a chance. She, the sister, has been there. So we have to open avenues for the generations and I think when we got sisters like brothers coming into the streets, the theater industries, the fame industries and telling the narratives that they own. They're powerful with it, they share it, they know the people who's going to involve in the whole sort of acting, making it happen. Then it has a powerful purpose because first you got audience who never go to the movie We'll go there and watch because you see the son and the daughter there and that you know it's educative. They don't talk about that. For us it's education. We bring it out. People there to share this moment there together and look on the screen and see, wow, my son, my daughter is on the. You know give you the prideness back or the proud back, and these are important. These are the we're making changes, even if it's small but it's important. It's a micro change, but that is important for our health and sanity.
Speaker 3:So I know this work has not been without all the negotiations that one has to make, having worked in Norway but also traveling around and working in a different context. Where are the points of tension? What lessons have you learned? Where do you feel there's some friction?
Speaker 2:Yeah, there is. There is Because I remember when I was doing work in China, these students never work with a black person or they seen black person on the street and they have a kind of taught that every black person you know just sweep the streets. You know. For me it's a very important sort of moment to show them the quality, the where we are. We are diverse. Black people with diverse, like Chinese people, are diverse. They don't work only intellectually, they're on the street, they do everything. But when they talk to black people about black people, they think we do the same thing all the time. They consider diversity of our people, you understand. So, being there for me it was so important, I mature that when they go home, when they go back to the other professors, they say there was a black man we work with. We're never expecting he was so intelligent, he showed us a lot of work, and that also affect them sort of psychologically, mentally and all that.
Speaker 2:I was also in Vietnam working. It was the same thing. I was teaching at the Academy in Vietnam and for me, whenever I got the chance, it's a legacy, it's a moment to tell them that we are very knowledgeable people, you know, and for them, for us to be in that position and to teach this student is a very important thing because it has a change, psychological change in the mind, because they see that black people in very different positions compared to the stereotype of black people they've seen in films, they saw on the street. They're pushing drugs and do decent that and that's what they think we are. We're doing. You know so for me, a couple months ago I was working at the Academy in Miami for two months. You know it was so great for me because I saw the diversity of student there but at the same time, the way my work was brought. There was a way to open the universe, for them to know that the world of art is just not the way they teach you what art is all about.
Speaker 2:So there are a lot of Afro-American students came and talked to me about Europe. How do you work? This is a method. Can you work more with us? Because we don't get that in the States. You know, because the States is for them. That's what they taught you to do. This is America is one of the biggest countries in the world. We have industries, we have everything. We have industries. You have to come forward to learn this kind of work and then you can achieve everything you want to achieve, which is not true.
Speaker 2:But for me, that interactions interact with the new student all over the world is so important because there's an impact that we leave there to them, intellectually or emotionally, that they say, oh, black people can also teach, black people has education. Black people knows a lot of things. Maybe we should ask for Black teachers to come, maybe we can ask for that, because I think what this man has served now is something fresh and new to us. It's also make us have relations with ourselves. So to me he's just been absolutely a positive kind of drive and at the same time, I always I don't say yes unless I'm prepared to take this avenue, to take that journey and then make very aware of who I am and why I'm doing this.
Speaker 2:In a way, what is the narratives when I teach at university? What is the narrative when I work with other people outside Norway, different people? So for me, I want them. I tell them about Africa. I have to tell them I do exercises, belong to Africa movement. Think about that, make some sound, make some word. You know, try and break the mood of your time, the mood they had in the mind of what they've seen, because they never catch be so close in a room where they got to listen to a Black person who is telling them how to develop the skill. That is very. For me, that's very, very important. I think it's very serious, you know, and also working. I'm working very much international and I think I always have an awareness when I say yes to the job, that when I leave they will always remember it was a Black person who's been working with us, so that it's a positive sign, it's a positive change in their mind.
Speaker 1:Yes, it's so great to hear you talk about how important it is for us to not forget the backs of the ancestors and the people that came before us, on who we are currently able to yes, even for how hard sometimes things are, for us to recognize that those that came before us like had it harder and they laid a certain foundation, and it's also our responsibility now to do that for the future generations. That kind of forward thinking, that kind of thinking that I feel like is very true to how we are raised in Africa, you know people will throw around the phrase of oh, it takes a village to raise a child, oh they talk about Ubuntu.
Speaker 1:But when you've grown up and seen what it feels like to be in community, you stop, because I think in the West they have.
Speaker 1:There is a lot of this very individualized way of living.
Speaker 1:It's just a different kind of philosophy, a different kind of mindset that is just very different from how we were raised.
Speaker 1:And I hear you talking about just the importance and recognizing the responsibility we also have for future generations, and I think it's something that is nice to remind a lot of our young and upcoming African creatives who are in their own way on different journeys.
Speaker 1:Some of them are in school, some of them are trying to forge a path for themselves, some of them are encountering a lot of, like you're saying, a lot of just opportunities shut in front of their faces because of either their color or people not really understanding what we bring and the misconceptions they have about Africans and having knowledge.
Speaker 1:But yet I mean, despite all that, it's important to remember that when you're given the opportunity, that you use that as a chance to tell the African story and to live the people that you're engaging with with a different perspective of Africa, a different perspective of who we are as a people, and I find that very convicting and just like a really important reminder, and I'm wondering, if there, what are some other things that you would like to encourage a lot of those young Africans in the diaspora back in the continent, regardless of where they are on this journey. What are some things you would tell them to encourage them as they're thinking about their futures, as they're thinking about what it means for them to be African and be proud of it, and to think about what it means to be able to enrich people's societies beyond Africa with what we have. What would you tell them?
Speaker 2:Being. There is a misconception here, because I think the what, the medium, what the even social media today it's it's Africa is for them is far behind everything you know. It doesn't you know because they they still are looking upon. If you look at at the movies, you know in South Africa I do a lot of great movies. You know West Africa, nigeria, ghana is doing great movies, kenya is doing great movies and all that. The thing is that, because you have another worth telling stories. But we've been in a sense like there's a the psychological effect when we first see a film, which is a way of how stories being told, that's nothing you know and then the method that the wage is being told. And the first time you look at the film, it has a film, it has a lot of of impression. You leave a lot of impression on you because, wow, this is great, this is magic, this is. You don't think about yourself, you know, and look at you, look at the mirror. You don't see. You see what you see when you look at the mirror. You don't see. You see what you've seen on the film and you want to be just as what you've seen on the film.
Speaker 2:So so that's why we want to talk to the young generation today. We tell them that the first thing is we have to grab education. Education is the main tool, especially here in Europe. A lot of young people, especially from Africa, they are spoiled in a way because everything is in, is there in abundance. Socially, they got a lot of things coming which is free and they forgot that they should sacrifice so that they can get education, so that tomorrow you can go back or or in a way, use that. In a way they can also grow up, grow themselves to a certain a certain, a certain height. But what they do they should use a lot of time, spending time not really engaging themselves in the social development or the or the addiction development going on. Because they got the dress well, they very unrecognized wrapping and there's nothing wrong with wrapping, but they're being sort of copy, whatever, being a star without even working to be a star. So we got a kind of, a kind of of of a lot of work to do, we who are conscious about tomorrow, about coming generations.
Speaker 2:Every time we got a chance if I got a chance to sit down, not to talk about art, but to talk about life generally, collectively, respect and the the, the opportunity that is at hand. How do we do that? Because I know if I have a young kid in Africa who doesn't have the chance, had the same possibility that you have in this country, they take it, they fly away. But you got that, you got everything here, so you forgot that you can use the possibility now to enrich yourself. It's an investment, it's a capital investment of knowledge for tomorrow. So to me, it's always to be aware of that and also being able, if I can be in a position, to inspire the motherland in a way and talk great about the motherland.
Speaker 2:You call it the motherland. You know it's a motherland. That's love, that's a healthy thing. States of our mind, you know it's just not a motherland. Yeah, motherland is. It means so much because we are alive when we talk about the motherland, which is Africa, the motherland that has bled, that has suffered from the death of her richness, and today we are reclaiming knowledge so that we can bring back the richness. So we make the motherland so plentiful and beautiful, you know, and so worthy and only has proud. We in the Aspera, to make the people, the young children, proud, because he, the West, he in the Aspera, we can inspire them, because if we in the Aspera we can make it here, it'll be easier for you to make it in Africa because you've got African leaders.
Speaker 2:How can we start changing the shape of politics also in Africa? You know, these are this is a very important, important questions because when the young generation in Africa see that we who are in the Aspera are progressing, are going further, it inspired them quite a lot and maybe we don't take it serious, but it's very, very true, because the political context in Africa today, of course Africa has all the possibilities I've seen, but because of government sort of been to some countries I don't think we've been able to give. Especially women have not been get a lot of position. Black women in Africa never get this position to make decision. Because I think the moment Africa shape itself, bringing more powerful women into power, then I think Africa will be benefitted so much that they have never benefitted before. So our job is to speak about these things. Our job is to make those change and you know it's a big change and you know it's not only talking but it's something that we come now to that point of life where those changes has to come.
Speaker 2:We cannot be bitter, because bitterness don't change anything. We need to get the right tools. We need to get the right way of involving. You know, I've seen it through a merry woman even if they don't go to work, they if you look at the concept of them they control the whole economy of the house. They never get the status you call them housewife. No, without them, the house will not be in order, will not function. We don't value these things. We must value it because these are very important values. This is only people who are intelligent enough. You can do that.
Speaker 3:Well said, cliff. I can't add anything to that. Let's talk about Black Nordic Theatre. It is self-funded, does its own productions, but also does a lot of collaborations. There are so many people that appreciate what you do. When you are awarded the prize from Oslo Municipality, the jury referred to you as an idealist, a unique personality, who, for over 30 years, has contributed to Norwegian theatre growing in perspectives, attitudes, scope and artistic content. How has the journey to doing this work been?
Speaker 2:It's always good to get acknowledgement, which is nice, but the thing is that when we started the theatre in 1992, we had no actors Black actors in this country. I knew it, but I never said anything about it. What I did is that we decided a lot of young Black kids were unemployed. They were not success at school. We decided to start a theatre school. Those are the quality of students we took in the school because we want them to give a new perspective, because we never get access to an Norwegian theatre school at all. So that was one of the main things we did, because we know that in the long run they will serve the society, they get jobs, they will be able now to fulfill their dreams and live further on and inspire the young coming generations. And at the same time, I thought it was also important to stick to your principle, stick to your belief and believe that Norway has to open up. We have to challenge the European autonomy in the art field. We want to play with them, because they didn't allow us to play with them. So we thought about, if they have a vision for their own development, then they have to look in 20 years, 30 years, fact time. If not nothing. We would see no black people, no blackface in films and in theaters and whatsoever. Journalism and all that. We need to make the society aware of the duties. By the work that we've been doing, I think we build a phenomenon so that the society can use it.
Speaker 2:Also, when we started, nobody wanted to collaborate with us. Nobody wanted no Jin to come to see our show, because they didn't believe in us. But we believe in ourselves. That was the self-belief. But today they come, Because today they don't ask what is Nordic Black Theatre? Before that there was an old question why Nordic Black Theatre? So the question to me instead of journalists why not Nordic Black Theatre? If you want me to explain why not Nordic Black Theatre? So you have to find out yourself. You have to look at me, you have to look at the generation not born yet so we know what we're talking about. Now, today they never ask the question, they can't say the name properly in the sense, and that is also something that we work for it.
Speaker 2:I know that we've been a lot of no, but at the same time me and my friend Jan Solberg, who is the director, who worked 30 years together our main focus was to get a house that belongs to us, where we can do the things we want to do, whenever we want to do, and who we want to do the work with. This is the thing we've done, the house we have now. It belongs to us. Oh, the freedom. It's the freedom. With the freedom you can achieve, you can tell whatever narrative you want to tell. You can invite whoever you want to invite. You can make the people in the near community feel this is their home. You can let. If they don't have money, you let them in to see it, and if they have money, they support your journey we're taking.
Speaker 2:The politics of the art is very, very important in my work. Just to say one thing, because when I said to you that when we started nobody wanted to come there, when we moved further, seden and also Philharmonic Orchestra wanted to work with us, beg and Philharmonic Orchestra wanted to and we sold the whole place that we know we'd never sold before Five days the concert, we said we fill it up, go gather, and we fill it up. The journey we've taken, the quality of work we're doing is so important and when we go there we do the work we want to present ourselves at the opera.
Speaker 3:Wow, what's your favorite project?
Speaker 2:What a question.
Speaker 3:What a question. What's one of your favorite?
Speaker 1:projects.
Speaker 2:No, I thought I'm still looking for the best thing of my life to do. That's why I'm doing it. I haven't found the right one yet. But there's one thing I will say that in 2013, I think, I have a possibility to work with, also Philharmonic Orchestra doing Romeo and Juliet. I decided that Romeo and Juliet should be done in rap and I bring dancers rap dancers. I brought rappers, I bring black artists to work with 150 classical musicians. This, to me, was wow. I told them if you want to work with me, I cannot change my identity of my work. I don't want you to change yours, so we have to merge together. So that's what we did.
Speaker 3:What are you working on at the moment?
Speaker 2:I just finished a play by James Baldwin a Germanist room. I just finished another play called Pieces of Me, by a South African writer who works in Hollywood and is in the States. We just finished now. Now I'm going because I've been invited to bring my Angelo to the National Theatre in Ethiopia. So I'm starting my Angelo to bring it to Africa, and that is a blessing. Producing a play at the Opera in February 2024 is about the story of Bob Marley.
Speaker 3:Wow, I'm looking forward to that one.
Speaker 1:It's going to be cute, so Cleve.
Speaker 3:One last but constant question for all our guests on the podcast what is your African aesthetic and what does the African aesthetic mean to you in the context of your work?
Speaker 2:To me, it's always the voice of the interest. The voice of the interest, which means the interest is always alive around me, inspired me, and if I don't reach them out? My work will never succeed. So for me, these are the spiritual journey. That was also the artistic journey, because I can hear the song, I can hear the tune, I can hear the language and I think this also is keeping me in touch with the work I'm doing and also the beauty of the continent and the people.
Speaker 3:Thank you so very much for setting apart time to share your life with us, to share your craft with us and to share your wisdom with us. We appreciate it so much.
Speaker 2:I know that I'm proud of what the work you're doing with the podcast is so important to reach out and then bring new faces, new thoughts, new ideas for other people to feel that. So thank you very much for asking me, or finding me in that moment, to share stories in your podcast.
Speaker 3:If you enjoyed listening to this episode, please join us for more conversations and interviews with African educators, creatives, architects, urban planners and designers, as they share their knowledge and experiences about practicing in Africa and the diaspora.
Speaker 1:Remember to subscribe, leave a review or share this podcast with other people that might be interested in this content. Thank you for joining us today.