Learnings and Missteps

From Debt to a Service Empire: Jim Penman's Journey to Success

• Jesus Hernandez • Season 3

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Step into the world of entrepreneurship with Jim Penman, an Australian trailblazer who transformed his life from the brink of debt to pioneering the largest franchising empire in the Southern Hemisphere. Discover the unexpected power of traditional service roles as Jim walks us through his journey from a simple lawn mowing venture to a diversified business empire that includes cleaning and dog washing services. This episode challenges the common narrative that success lies solely in high-tech industries, showcasing the immense economic value and personal fulfillment found in service-oriented businesses.

Listeners will be inspired by Jim's transition from a history PhD graduate to a successful entrepreneur, with a start rooted in his passion for gardening. Despite initial struggles with people skills and competition, Jim’s adaptability and resourcefulness paved the way for the creation of a thriving service franchise. We uncover how his early skills and experiences laid the foundation for financial stability and supported his unique research interests, illustrating the profound impact of perseverance and strategic growth.

This conversation dives into the heart of customer service excellence, ethical business practices, and the philosophy of servant leadership. Jim shares his dedication to treating customers and franchisees with respect, ensuring their success while upholding core values. He sheds light on the importance of generosity in business and the complex motivations behind both fictional villains and real-life challenges. Through his story, we find a deeper understanding of success that is intertwined with service and meaning in life, offering valuable lessons for anyone looking to build a sustainable and ethically grounded enterprise.

Connect with Jim at:
https://jimpenman.com.au
https://www.youtube.com/@thejimpenman


Make yourself a priority and get more done: https://www.depthbuilder.com/do-the-damn-thing

Download a PDF copy of Becoming the Promise You are Intended to Be
https://www.depthbuilder.com/books

Speaker 1:

I was actually flat broke. I was tens of thousands of dollars in debt, so I really didn't see the mowing business as the thing that was going to make me wealthy or enough to be able to do my research. But I didn't know how to do anything else. I just kept on growing it. I started off mowing lawns and doing gardens. I realised I could actually make more money, at least in the short term, by building up and selling lawn mowing rounds. So I made a practice of that, and then I was hiring subcontractors to work how to do it, and I had to work out how to sell these lawn mowing rounds. And that was quite a struggle too, because I wasn't I'm not very, very good with people.

Speaker 2:

I didn't have great people what is going on l&m family. We're back and this time I have like an ultra, ultra awesome guest, mr Jim Penman, out of Australia. I think I got that right. I know there's a comment there about the Southern Hemisphere. Jim is one of Australia's most iconic entrepreneurs. He's got some time, he's been at it for a while.

Speaker 2:

He's the founder of the largest franchising chain in the Southern hemisphere, which is kind of a big deal, and one of the things that caught my attention after we made the connection to have the conversation, looked at your YouTube channel and it's Jim's group and some of the chains I think the chains that are like performing or growing exponentially is Jim's cleaning, jim's mowing, jim's dog wash and so like. The continuity is so simple and clear and I also got to listen to some training. So I think there's a whole world of stuff that we're going to get to hear from Mr Jim. And so, if you're new here, I'm Jesse, you're listening to the Learnings and Missteps podcast and we're about to learn about the sacrifices and the awakenings that Jim has had on his path to success. Mr Jim, how are you? Sir, I'm great Good to be here, likewise, so it's 7 am early in the morning on your side and you're in the future, because today it's Monday here in San Antonio and I guess it's Tuesday for you.

Speaker 1:

Yes, yeah, that's right. It's Charlie with the future.

Speaker 2:

So you've picked up some tricks along the way in your career. I listed some high points in the introduction, but I'm curious, jim what are the things that people need to know about you? That is very difficult, those hidden gems that you don't always get a chance to share with folks.

Speaker 1:

I think one of the chief things I like people to understand is the potential for the service industry. People are very obsessed with high tech these days and the Internet and those kind of things all of which are very useful but people neglect some of the oldest jobs around, the basic jobs like cleaning and gardening and looking after dogs and so forth, because it's actually a huge part of the economy and I was very lucky to get into that. When my academic career blew up, I turned my part-time gardening mowing business into a full-time and it turned out to be a very good business decision.

Speaker 2:

All right. So what is it? What was it about the service industries, the day-to-day real life stuff, that drew you in? How did it capture your attention?

Speaker 1:

Well, originally, it was my student job. I was doing a PhD in history, which took me, with everything else, about 10 years. I was an endless student and I like to work all the time, but I also, you, get a bit tired of just being indoors. So I thought a great job is to be outdoors gardening, and I can also make much better money than I could working for somebody else. Even back in 40s or 45 years ago I could do a lawn for five bucks and that took me half an hour. But you know, this was good money. So I was making 10 bucks an hour at a time when a job might get me three or four bucks an hour. So it was outside, physical love, being outside with nature and make pretty good money. So that's basically what it was. And then in 1982 I finished my studies and I really had no hope for academic post or career, so I thought, well, it's about anything I know. So I turned it into a business, okay.

Speaker 2:

So you dedicated a significant part of your life into following the academic route and did I hear you correctly Like? You got to that end of that run and said wait a minute. What am I going to do now? Is that? How close am I?

Speaker 1:

I always thought I'd be an academic, I would develop some theory and a way of looking at society, of history and so forth that I thought was pretty powerful. But I couldn't prove it, and the problem too was that my theory was all leading me into things like biology and genetics and so forth, like that which I had no expertise in because my degree was in history. So part of the idea I needed to work out a way to become rich enough to be able to support my research project. So that's how I had to turn my gardening business into something a little bit bigger.

Speaker 2:

Ah, okay, so this theory that you're working on and I think you've produced some work on it since am I correct? That's right, yes.

Speaker 1:

I have. I call it understanding history through biological mechanisms.

Speaker 2:

Got it. Got it Beautiful. And so you came to a point said son of a gun. There's this thing. I don't have the resources to like actualize that currently, but there's another way I can build the resources to get there. Is that an oversimplification?

Speaker 1:

That's exactly right. I didn't know how to do anything else, but lucky to stumble on a business. See, I like being outside. I'm that kind of person. Even today I've got a farm and I go out there and dig potatoes and stuff. I enjoy that kind of stuff. So it wasn't a difficult thing to do. It's a fun job and the service industry is fantastic. I mean, you make very good money, you start with almost nothing and you can go anywhere absolutely so.

Speaker 2:

I began my working career as a plumber's apprentice. My dad's a plumber.

Speaker 2:

I spent, we'll just say, over 20 years on the plumbing side of the business, got my journeyman license and all those other things, and only until recently I figured out like man I think I could build something for myself, and I'm not even in the service industry per se, but the skills that I built from fixing things, installing things, constructing things it's exactly those lessons you learn of taking your wherewithal, some information, some tools and material and creating something. That's what I apply in my business today. So I'm not doing anything new. You've been doing it for a while now. I recognize that you started earning a living through doing service-based business, but it's matured quite a bit since then. Right, I mean you. I've caught some of your lessons around customer service and building a business and so forth. And so in that realm of when you started generating income through delivering services and then growing your first franchise and expanding and starting to teach people, what was that path like?

Speaker 1:

Well, it wasn't really a straight goal At the time. I started doing this, back in 1992, I went full time and I had no money. I was actually flat broke. I was tens of thousands of dollars in debt. So I really didn't see the mowing business as the thing that was going to make me wealthy or enough to be able to do my research. But I didn't know how to do anything else. I just kept on growing it. I started off mowing lawns and doing gardens. I realised I could actually make more money, at least in the short term, by building up and selling lawn mowing grounds. So I made a practice of that. And then I was hiring subcontractors to work how to do it. And then I had to work out how to sell these lawn mowing grounds. And that was quite a struggle too, because I wasn't I'm not very, very good with people. I didn't have great people skills. My wife says I've got borderline asperger's. So that was a challenge but.

Speaker 1:

I didn't know how to do that and I hadn't learned how to improve my own methods of service and so forth. And then what actually happened was that in the 80s I was having this little business with building up and selling lawn mowing. I said I was sort of got out of debt and bought a house and stuff. So I was doing okay. And then this company called VIP came to Melbourne and they were interstate and they were franchising and these guys had 250 franchisees and they actually terrified me. I thought they'd crush me. I actually offered to join forces with them. I said, look, I'll just help to build you guys. And they said, oh well, I'm not interested in that. So I thought, well, I'll find out what they're doing. So I actually basically crashed the franchising exploit that year 1998, and went up to the stand and said I'm very interested in VIP, can you tell me about it? Didn't know who I was, so he told me. And then the state manager came in and said that's Jim Penman, don't tell them anything else. So they kicked me off the fan.

Speaker 1:

So I went away and I thought, well, okay, there's some good ideas here, there's some good principles here, but maybe I could do something that might work better for franchisees. That's my idea. If I can make my franchisees into raving fans, I'll be successful, maybe just survive this onslaught. I wasn't thinking of beating them, so I got some lawyers together. It took me nine months. I spent nine months arguing with lawyers, basically, and they said to me your franchise system is too, you're being too nice, you're giving people too much. And I said, no, I want a system that I want to join.

Speaker 1:

And so then in 1999, about June, signed my first franchisee. Somebody asked me at that time they said if it goes well, how many do you think you might have one day? And I said, well, if it really goes well, maybe one day I could have as many as 100. That was funny to say right at the beginning, and I still thought this wasn't the thing that was going to make me giving the resources I needed for my research, but it was surprisingly successful. By the end of the first year, I had about 60, and I thought, wow, this is interesting.

Speaker 1:

And then people started coming from interstate and wanted to be part of it and I thought, wow, this is strange. And I had a secret weapon, though this is the one thing that really exemplified my approach when I was selling lawnmower grounds. I was a lousy salesman but I had a simple method. Every time somebody dealt with me I did everything possible to make them successful and then when they started, I took their name and I wrote it on a bit of black textile and a bit of white card and I put it behind me and that was my references. So when anybody interested in the lawn mowing ground I'd say listen, okay, if you want to know anything about the way I do it, ring any of these guys. There was about 100 of them and they would say Jim is great, did what he said, looked after me, gave me advice, best person to deal with.

Speaker 1:

So when I started franchising, I did the same thing. I'd give a list of all my franchisees with their phone numbers and I gave it to everybody. And people would come to me and say why would I buy from you? You're running it from a basement. This is company VIP. Well, much better established. And I said all right, we're different in different ways. I wasn't bagging them, but here's a list of my franchisees. I want you to go and ring them as many as possible and then you go and get their list. And I knew they wouldn't provide a list because they couldn't do it and people would ring my list and say Jim was great. Jim did what he said. He looked after me, he's got lots of work. He's always there. He always asks for queries, gives me advice, runs meetings. He's a great guy. So that's how it happened. So I started to grow and it just surprised me.

Speaker 2:

Actually, it amazed me In the beginning. I didn't even think this could possibly work that well, but it just gradually dawned on me hey, I've got something pretty good here. You know this because you've lived it 20 times over. What I have, what I envision not just me, like the L&M family out there. You said it. You said, if things go really well, maybe 100. You've exceeded that many times over.

Speaker 2:

And I feel like when we're operating in service to others, sharing our gifts and talents in service to other human beings, the potential of growth is. It's limitless, like it is beyond whatever we can calculate at the moment. And as we continue forward, it continues to expand. Does that sound like hogwash to you or what do you think? And we want to give the shout out to our LNM family member who went out of their way to leave us an awesome comment, awesome review. This one comes from Ms Sanaz. She dropped this one on the YouTube and she says I want to thank you and your team for teaching us everything that no school does. Your content is a gift to everyone who is seeking ways to success. And it's not just my content, it's really the content from our guests here.

Speaker 1:

It's true. Look, everything's about service, jesse. Being successful as a gardener, as a lawnmower contractor, was about looking after my customers really well, and I was fanatic about customer service. I just hate to let anybody down. I hate to do less than a perfect job.

Speaker 1:

I was one of the first contractors in Australia back in the 70s as a student, to have a brush cutter. They called me there with the nylon cord that spins around and cuts the edges, because it used to frustrate me that I couldn't get a perfect, every edge perfect. So as soon as I saw this device I just bought one straight away so I could do all around the trees and the retaining walls, all the perfect edges, and then I could get the cracks from the grass from the cracks. So I really worked to make my customers into raving fans. And then I found it easy because I picked up regular customers and I got referrals and I could make good money.

Speaker 1:

Now the same principle with franchising. I did everything possible to make my franchisees into fans, to make them as positive, and never stop thinking about ways. I give my direct phone number and email address to every franchisee at training. I did it at course just yesterday in the opening course I wrote it up on the board. I said you contact me anytime daytime, evenings, weekends, public holidays, I don't care. There's a franchisee who rang me on Christmas Day just to wish me happy Christmas, but he's allowed.

Speaker 2:

There you go.

Speaker 1:

Five and a half thousand people have my direct number. The only thing is they're told you mustn't give it to anybody else. So I don't want my number getting out there, just to you guys. And if anybody tries to ring me, you guys got no right. I'm pretty short with them. So that's kind of dedication and I'm endlessly every day thinking how can I help my franchisees to do better.

Speaker 2:

And the harder you do that, the more successful you are. Oh, I love it. So do you feel like your commitment to and I'm going to say obsessive commitment, in a healthy way to delivering the best service is what helped you balance out not being a people person?

Speaker 1:

yeah, yeah, maybe. Maybe it's an attraction, because if I was a great salesperson I could just be charismatic people to listen to me. But isn't some lousy sales. You gotta do something else, don't you?

Speaker 2:

no, I love it. I I think it's an important thing. I think folks out out there that you don't have to be here's what they want to make clear. You don't have to be an entrepreneur or a franchisee to learn how to serve the person in front of you in an unforgettable way. We get to do that every day at the gas station, with our family members, with our colleagues at work, and when we serve them in a manner that is, it's way, abnormal, because the majority of folks is very passive, very superficial, there's no deep connection, there's no real listening, and so it works in the personal space, professional space, and if you're entertaining the idea of entrepreneurship, you your proof, like big, gigantic proof, of the high value that it brings. Now I think I'm hearing a tone.

Speaker 1:

The mistake people make is they think of it in terms of money. You never put the money first. You put the people you're dealing with first. See, we made decisions in the beginning. I wasn't ever going to sell a franchise to somebody that I didn't have pretty good confidence were going to succeed. It's actually one of the worst things you can do in gyms is to sell a franchise to somebody you've got reason to think might fail, and at the beginning I thought that was an idea that would hold me from growing. But I only later realized it was actually driving success, because by knocking out the people that weren't succeeding, I want to take them out in the road. It had to be trial before they can get a franchise. We still do that and you don't get a franchise. And that's not really in the beginning of business decision. It's a moral decision. It's the idea that we sold people okay.

Speaker 2:

Okay, I think that's super powerful. I want to dig into that some more. So this is a moral decision. I can sell anybody a franchise, but not everyone is prepared or equipped to run a franchise. So then I'm faced with a decision Do I sell it to them or not? And so here's my first question is this not? And so here's my first question is this what are some of the signals that call to you to say this may not be the best decision?

Speaker 1:

for them? Okay, sometimes it's demographics. Okay, kim, a case a franchise that I heard was about to be sold to somebody. I spoke to the mother. She had a problem with the contract, which is why she contacted me, and I found out that she was buying a franchise on behalf of her son, who was in his early 20s and he couldn't find a job. And I said Matt it's completely out.

Speaker 1:

Your son has no chance of success with that kind of attitude. She was actually very distressed. She said to me oh look, I wish I hadn't rung you. And I said it's jolly good you did. But she said what does he do? He can't even go to a job. I said okay, why don't I get him some work with a couple of local franchisees in his area who had more than enough work looking for employees, went out on the road with them, absolutely them, absolutely hopeless. Now the franchisor who did that came up for renewal shortly afterwards and I said to him you are not renewing. That was an appalling thing to do To put somebody on.

Speaker 1:

You must have known Now he sold his business. He wasn't confiscated, but I would not renew his business. So to sell a franchise to somebody who doesn't have what it takes, that's one sort of thing to look at. Other things to look at is actually taking somebody up in the road is one of the best things I've recently put in a policy. I said I don't for my contracts department. You cannot sign anybody unless you get a written report from somebody who's gone out with them in the field. One of the franchisees has said this person is good and they don't get paid any extra for passing them. In fact, we just pay them the same the same, regardless. This is taking somebody out, show them the ropes, have a look at them, send me a report If you don't get a good report.

Speaker 1:

So if they don't say listen? So if you're putting somebody out in the road and you show them how to mow a lawn, here's what you do. You go around the edges first once. Then you go straight lines. Okay, when you go into a corner where there's a hose on the grass, you take the hose. You caught it neatly on the garden, even if it's just a little bit of grass there, and you mow neatly to the edge. Now you can tell them to do that once, maybe twice. If after that they don't listen, you fail them because they're not prepared to listen.

Speaker 1:

And then you look at things. They can't take instruction. Look at questions. How many questions do they ask? Are they good questions if all they have to say is how much can I make? How much can I make? They're thinking it's a job. They need to be asking intelligent questions. Have they done research, those kinds of things? So you look, how do they impress you, how do they come across? It's a whole raft of listening. When I do training for franchisors who do the sales, I actually spend the first hour talking about selection, how we select why we select Nice.

Speaker 2:

So it sounds like you've got a super robust system. Obviously it's massive. You've got all kinds of business and continuing to grow. You're teaching people how to do this. And again, what's beautiful is you started out by doing lawn care and garden care yourself. Now, along the way, you didn't plan to be where you're at necessarily from day one, but as you saw the opportunities present themselves, how did you capture your methodology, your processes, your systems? Was it all mental? Did you document that? Like, how did you capture the learning of how you delivered the service that you delivered?

Speaker 1:

Well, we have mechanisms that are based on IT. We spend several million dollars a year on IT these days, on systems that actually take away the jobs that are done and their jobs are taken, how they're allocated, the feedback systems and so forth. A lot of things to do with customer service, but a lot of it's also just teaching. I give a talk in our training. The first two hours of the talk I give on the Monday morning of training, which was yesterday, and I talk about the ethos, I talk about customer service, I talk about the way we achieve customer service. I talk about service to franchisees and the way we achieve that. And that talk I've given hundreds of times and I'm always on the same topic. I'm always talking about it in the same way the idea of service, jesus washing his disciples' feet, servant leadership, that kind of idea. I just talk about it a lot and, and by example and by repetition and by passion, you just keep on pushing it. And the really humbling thing is that people actually, with time, have adopted this kind of thinking.

Speaker 1:

My franchisors and there's about 200 of them now who look after the franchisees by and large they really think and believe the same way. They actually sometimes take it faster than me. They say, well, here's a franchisee, we should do this for them, they just like. Even during COVID we were locked down in Victoria. Our franchisees were unable to work. It was awful for two months and now we didn't charge any fees. But during that time my franchisors were actually still ringing the franchisees. They weren't paid, they just cared enough to do it. And that's an example of the ethos that you get across.

Speaker 2:

Yes, I love it. So servant leadership is something that I had the fortune of working for an organization. That was the culture of the organization. There were teaching mechanisms to help us understand it, and we had a large volume of leaders that could demonstrate servant leadership. I wish it was 100, but it wasn't now. Some people struggle with the idea. Even just the two words for some people are conflicting, and so, for the person that is struggling with the concept of servant leader, being a servant in order to lead how would you simplify it for them?

Speaker 1:

You've got to be emotionally committed to the people that you're dealing with at every level, and I even mean staff members, but also franchisees, obviously in our case, and also clients. It's got to be from the heart. It's just rational. If you say I'll do this because I'll make more money out of it, you tend to compromise. But if it's an absolute, I will look after this person no matter what, because it's the right thing to do. That is the best decision. And it's really strange, jesse, but the best decisions that I've made in my business career were the decisions I made against what I thought was my own self-interest, like being selective, knocking back people.

Speaker 1:

A person buys a franchise. They pay you money. You're not sure about them. They pay you money, they come in, they fail. Hey, you've got the franchise fees. You've got the ongoing fees. Obviously you're better off, but it actually took a long while to figure out you're not really better off for all kinds of reasons. First of all, they give poor service to clients. Secondly, they turn off prospective franchisees for their bad example. It's certainly them in the community afterwards saying, hey, never join gyms because I had such a bad experience. It's a whole lot of negativity, but the decision was made for moral reasons that I wasn't going to put anybody on, that I wasn't convinced would be successful. That decision was a brilliant business decision.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, absolutely Okay. So where does the? I've been able to? I've been in situations myself when I started my business and I've been able to work with a lot of really smart people that when it came to the question of revenue, that weight, that little birdie that we'll call the revenue bird, would often lead them to make short-sighted decisions that were painful for the business and everybody involved. Short-sighted decisions that were painful for the business and everybody involved. So it takes like major strength to be able to say this is not a good idea, this is not a good fit, for whatever reason. So where would you say your fortitude, mr Jim, in being able to say no, this is not a good deal, even though you're turning revenue away? Where did you get the strength to do that? Where's it come from?

Speaker 1:

it's. It's mostly christian values as much as anything else. But most people in gyms aren't christian, obviously. I'm recognized. In fact, some of their best people are actually muslims and sikhs and hindus and all kinds. I do. Some people of faith tend to particularly understand what we do fairly well, but it's fundamentally it's Christian values. It's that you look after somebody else, and I've been a Christian for many decades and that's central to my life, my way of thinking, and yeah, we try and preach the values. We're not necessarily preaching the gospel, if you know what I mean.

Speaker 2:

Oh, yeah, yeah, absolutely. What's important that I think our listeners can grasp onto is it's very simple, right In Jesse land, it's like just be cool, don't do dumb things, treat people right. Like. It's not that complicated, and I love that you point out the various beliefs or religions, because it's not that hard, you don't have to have a certain credo. It really is. How can we serve another human being? How do we not take advantage of other people? How do we not cause pain in their life? And I may offend them by telling them, no, by rejecting them, but in the long run, I'm doing the best thing I can do for that person that's directly in front of me.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, A lot of pressure on you all the time to do things in a different way. For example, one of the things that I serve my franchisees but one of the things I'm very tough about customer service extremely tough and we've actually put enormous pressure growing pressure over the years to improve levels of customer service, and I'm very much in charge of that. I'm the only person. We have a system of surveys and complaints. I'm very much in charge of that. I'm the only person we have a system of surveys and complaints. I'm the only person that can actually delete them if there's good reason or if they're satisfied.

Speaker 1:

So I personally handle this myself, which is an odd thing for a CEO to do, but I do, and I'm always pushing for better service. Why are we getting complaints? What do we need to do? So we institute policy. If you ring somebody, you can't get through. You've got to text. You can't just leave a message, you must text All kinds of different ways.

Speaker 1:

And I get a lot of pushback on that and I'm always pushing it. People are saying, oh, you're being unfair, you're pushing me too hard, I'm getting anxiety, I can't sleep because of all these complaints and I say, yes, but if I slacken off, you won't do as well, because we know that the franchisees who give the best service are most likely to report great income, most likely to stay. So you've got to push all the time and keep on driving. And what's happened miraculously is that as we've pushed over the last 40 years, the level of complaints has gone down. Like our level of complaints is less than 1%. It's a fraction of 1% of what they used to be in pre-franchise days. And then we keep on pushing them and we've got software coming up over the next year or so which will drop that by at least down to half of what they are now. So there's relentless pressure.

Speaker 1:

This thing we look after customers and the same thing with franchisees. What can we do? What more can we do? We're always dreaming up things, always pushing, always driving. Every day of my life I have these questions how can we look after our customers better? How can we look after our franchisees better? Every day, you've got to be relentless.

Speaker 2:

Oh, I love it. And again, the heavy focus on the customer experience. Now you dropped a golden nugget in there that I want to repeat is if you call a customer back, leaving a voicemail is not enough. You've got to follow up with a text message as well. Did I catch that?

Speaker 1:

right, that's absolutely right. Yes, if they don't do it and the customer complains they didn't call, they're wrong, that's a valid complaint. And they said yes, but I did ring. I said yes, but you didn't text. So when I was taught yesterday I was taught this and I get them to repeat it I said now we text and I get a hundred people in the audience. They're all saying text like that. It's a very emotional experience.

Speaker 2:

I understand how uncomfortable that can be. If it's not your normal practice For me, when I'm working with my clients, I'll send them an email. I have a little time thing in my head. About 36 hours after I send that email I'm going to follow up with the text and say, hey, check and make sure it didn't fall in your junk folder. I'm available for the call. And if I still don't get a response, that very next day first thing in the morning, I'm calling like how are things going? Like, are we alive? Because things happen.

Speaker 2:

And when I'm working one-on-one, I tell my tell folks that I'm coaching one-on-one. It's like look, I'm going to check in on you, we're going to have work to do and I just want to make sure that we're the ball still rolling. And if you don't respond to me, I'm going to email you, I'm going to phone call you, I'm going to text you, I'm going to find you on Facebook. I'm going to find, I'm going to find you so that we can. You can either tell me get the hell out of your hair or things are good and you're still alive, which is a little excessive. But I'm going to use you, mr Jim, as my accomplice. Now I'm going to say well, jim said that I need to follow up and I'm following up Now, after that rant in terms of golden nuggets again, beautiful nugget phone.

Speaker 2:

Leave a message text. Nugget phone, leave a message text. What other? What else do you recommend people do in terms of following up with somebody they have an important relationship with? Again, it doesn't necessarily have to be in the context of you running your business, but just professional conversation and so forth. What other things do you teach that you see, produce the phenomenal results that your company is experiencing?

Speaker 1:

Well when it comes to franchises, serving them, who are actually our primary customers, as our customer service has improved, one of the most remarkable things is we find it easier and easier to find clients. In the early days I had teams of campuses knocking on doors. These days, look, we've got so much we can't even spend our advertising budget. We have to give it back to the franchisees because it's in the contract. We knocked back over 200,000 leads in the last year, so we've come.

Speaker 1:

Work's become enormously easy to find. The better the customer service, the easier, the more the work floods in. It's just an extraordinary change over the years. So what we now focus on to a large extent is how do we serve franchisees better, and one of the things we've found from experience is we actually try a lot of things in the early days, like we've done business reviews half a day business review with a franchisee. It didn't work because you can check these things. You've got to measure what you can do, but then we've later found that other things do work. Responding to a franchisee's call very fast really makes a difference. If you get back to them straightaway, take the call. That's so much better. They've got an absolute maximum of 24 hours to respond, and that includes my staff.

Speaker 1:

So if anybody actually comes to my office doesn't get a response within 24-hour business days, they get $100. That's a standard offer. Keeps them on their toes. But what we found from experience is that what really worked with franchisees. There's two things you've got to do. First of all, you've got to run regular meetings and we figured out every six weeks is the right amount. You've got to get them together. You've got to get them sharing with each other. You put on a meal, because that always makes it more of a communication. You come in, you learn and you develop fellowship, develop community. And the other thing we found is really powerful is that you've got to ring your franchises regularly at least once a month, ideally once a week, and just say how's it going, what happened, how did that job go, how did that quote go, how was your daughter's wedding? Whatever the story is, you keep contact regularly and we found that the frequent small contacts are the best way to actually keep people happy oh, my god, there's a bunch there.

Speaker 2:

So here's what I wrote down At least once a month like absolute minimum check in, see how things are doing, have regular meetings and in person, to build community, the knowledge, sharing, the trust, the just say, think, realizing I am not less than you're a human. You have the same problems. I have problem that I'm having. So I'm human too. We can get through this together and then call back within 24 hours or you get a hundred bucks. That one's kind of fun.

Speaker 2:

I think those are phenomenal. Obviously they're driving performance in your business, but I think they're like phenomenal in terms of anything that's going on, like for our listeners out there. Do you do these things? When somebody calls you, do you get back to them within 24 hours? Do you make an effort, like put it on your calendar to reach out and touch them at least once a month? If you could do once a week, you're winning. Do you spend and share time with these individuals that you're working to influence, support or grow Super, super powerful? Now here's a question, because I know by now the L&M family is saying, oh, this is exciting, I want more of it In terms of the business that you have now? Do we have to live in the Southern Hemisphere to access your knowledge or become a part of, become a franchisee, et cetera?

Speaker 1:

Well, we've got a small branch in Canada, in British Columbia. We've got about 90 franchisees there. Okay, no, but I'll tell you what. We're very open about what we do. We had one of your American entrepreneurs, a franchisor, come across to a training just recently and he came across and went through our full training course, all of our franchisee training, franchisor training, the whole thing and he actually delivered a talk for us too. So he told us about what he was doing. So that was fantastic. So we actually invite anybody if you're interested in learning how to be a franchisor, come to Australia and we'll train you. And the course is only about $1,500, so it's not a lot of money. I mean, getting here costs a bit more, of course. So we just really give everything to anybody. So if somebody comes to us and says I want to franchise my own business, I say, well, come and do our training course Now. When they do that, very frequently they end up deciding to franchise through us. But give it away.

Speaker 2:

Signed the franchise through us, but give it away no-transcript. Why would you advise somebody to be generous and what has it brought to your life?

Speaker 1:

It's just surprising. If you stop thinking about yourself first of all and you think about the person you're dealing with, at any level, it just somehow seems to come better. It doesn't seem so Like we've got people come across. They've actually come to our full training course and then tried to launch their own business using our systems. Now, as far as I know, they haven't actually succeeded at any great level, but we still offer it because it's just a nice thing to do. And it's surprising Like this guy, this American guy, came across. Now I just did it because you want to be nice, give somebody a bit of a hand, help them, but in fact, what he actually gave us was wonderful because he's actually had some fantastic ideas. We did a recording, we did an interview with him, so it was really good stuff that we can use to help our own people. It's a great thing about if you've got money, you give it away you haven't got it. But if you've got an idea and you give it away, you still own it, haven't got it. But if you've got an idea and you give it away, still own it, and then that person gives you their ideas and everybody becomes wealthier in terms of ideas.

Speaker 1:

I'm a great believer in sharing, in learning. We'll teach you everything we know. I never signed on this project. You can come and you can learn everything. You can see my computer system. We call it franchise management system. We've spent tens of millions of. We show you how it works. We show you everything.

Speaker 2:

We just do that wow yeah, what I really appreciate about that again is the generosity. And also I know that like the truth, because there are some people that are in my space every now and then that are very. They covet the idea right. They operate in fear. And I'm like and they'll ask like Jess, why do you share so much? And I'm like because I want to make, if I really want to make the world better the way I say I do, but I don't share this little tip or trick that I have. I'm lying A, b. I know how long it took me to get good at doing that thing and I know the sacrifice it's going to take to really make it stick. And so by the time that person figures it out, that's okay, because I'm going to be further down the road, just like I have been. So that may be a little snaky, but that's how I look at things.

Speaker 1:

People. Always they'll try and copy you, but it's far more difficult. In the beginning, actually, I thought people would just grab my ideas and run with them, but it's actually very difficult to do because you're always progressing. What I'm doing now is different to what I did 12 months ago and my software better and my systems are better and my training is better. Everything keeps on improving. The other thing, too is, even if you teach people rationally how to do what you're doing, it's very it's. The hardest thing is to convey the culture, the idea.

Speaker 1:

Yes, the servant leadership thing, because they'll take what they think they want, but they'll miss out on the really important core stuff of values because they'll just look at the mechanics and they think oh yeah, I'll do what Jim did, but I'll do it my way, and I won't be so extreme on this and I won't be so anal about that, and I'll do it this and this and this, and they end up something doesn't work.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I love it. So often and I think maybe it's just part of the human condition People anchor on the tools, they anchor on the shiny things that they can easily grasp and understand and miss the deeper meaning, the values, the principles of the thing, and then they're like it doesn't work. I was like, well, yeah, because it was built on a foundation and all you took was the roof, and I'm guilty of that. I've done that myself so so many times Now in the scheduling of our conversation and I'm grateful to you for getting up early in the morning to do this. Something in the emails I remember, something about Montgomery Burns. Can you give us the background on Mr Montgomery Burns there?

Speaker 1:

Oh, Jesse, I'm a big fan of villains. I just like the bad guys. To me, they're really good. I don't aim to be a bad guy, but I just yeah, he's wonderful. I mean I'm like anybody.

Speaker 1:

I like Emperor Palpatine in Star Wars. I like Darth Vader, I like the Green Goblin in Spider-Man. Bad guys seem more interesting. I just love the bad characters. Now I'm not saying I use that as an example, but I think he's just a great character. Monty Burns, when my kids would I've got 10 children so when my kids would be listening to us watching the simpsons out in there and I would just be doing my work and stuff. And now I hear monty burns. So I'm out there like a flash saying what's he up to now?

Speaker 2:

I love. So I wonder in your appreciation for villains, do you see, do you feel like there's something in them, in their experience or what they're portraying, that gives you empathy for them?

Speaker 1:

well, yeah, I always like to know what somebody's motivations are. It annoys me when somebody acts in a way that hasn't got proper motivation. See, one of the things that really bugged me about Star Wars was in Return of the Jedi. Palpatine the Emperor tries to get Darth Vader to kill his only son. Now that is an insanely stupid thing to do. How could you be smart enough to become ruler of the galaxy and get your chief supporter, who's more powerful than you, to try and kill his only son? So to me that was really bad because you weren't looking at it from Palpatine's point of view. So I wanted to know what somebody's motivation is. Why does a person do the thing they do? Because in real life it isn't as simple as black and white. Everybody has positives and there's negatives. What do they say? The line between good and evil runs in the heart of every man. Who said that? Edmund Burke or someone like that? That's really true. So I do have this thing where I like to think about it from the point of view of the other guy. Always, what are they thinking about? What are they doing? I think the attitude is quite healthy.

Speaker 1:

You're looking at a villain. What's his motivation? And if he hasn't got a reasonable motivation, I don't like him very much. That's one reason that we're talking about Spider-Man, the Tobey Maguire ones. The first ones were really good. The villains were quite sensible. You get this guy who's a businessman, who's built his business and he's a good guy. He's a scientist and he's a mentor to Peter. He's a good guy and he builds this business, and then his board of directors takes over control and wants to kick him out. Well, to me that's a reasonable motivation for killing them. I mean not saying I would do it in the same situation, but you've got to understand his point of view. So I want to see it from someone else's viewpoint. That's my thing about villains too. So I see it from someone else's viewpoint. That's my thing about villains too. What are they doing? Why are they thinking? Why are they doing that? Is it reasonable? And you've got a complicated, complex villain. They do have a motivation and you can understand why.

Speaker 2:

Oh yeah, yes, the one villain that I related to the most was Thanos in the Avengers series, the most recent Avengers series, and it was odd to me the way it struck, because if you've seen it, you've seen it. There's the storyline, but what it brought to my heart or my mind was the times that I had to make very difficult decisions and I knew it was going to hurt people and I knew nobody was going to care about why I made the decision or why I had to make the decision and I had to carry that burden. And so, to your point, like the, everybody's coming from a different place and I think your appreciation for villains is close to your appreciation for your customers, because understanding what their experience is, understanding how to better serve them, understanding what drives them, is really what you're focused on, learning and using that to inform your support and service towards them. Does that sound pretty accurate or close enough?

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I think so I can't say I've ever thought about it in those terms before, jesse, but it does make sense, doesn't it? You've always got to look at it from the other person's point of view. Like, why can I sell franchises so? Well, it's because I'm always thinking from the point of view of the person about to buy what's in their interest. And the same thing You're looking at somebody, you're looking at a villain. He's the bad guy, okay, but what's his motivations?

Speaker 1:

or her motivations, what are they after? Why are they acting that way? Why would they act that way? I think it's crucial to understand it. What do people want? And then, when you do that, you can look after them. Because if you always look at it from the point of view of what I want, you'll never get into their shoes, will you Never?

Speaker 2:

And because I've walked that path for a very long time myself, jim, where I'm just worried about me. And the problem was this If everyone would just listen to what I'm thinking and do what I want them to do, the world would be fine. And that was just never going to happen. That was miserable. Oh, my goodness, never quit, so I got to know that.

Speaker 1:

You've walked a mile in their shoes. You know what they say. It's very true. You've got to understand somebody and that's sometimes you've got a tough line and I have really tough conversations at times with franchisees or franchisors who won't follow the system and I say, look, I'm really sorry, but you have to do this. You've got to do this thing, you've got to be texting, you've got to be following up, you've got to be making absolutely sure your customer is happy with the job and go back and finish it. If they aren't, you just keep on pushing them. But you've got to understand and I I feel your pain, I understand you and you've got to understand. I feel your pain, I understand you and you've got a pregnant wife and things are hard for you. But I want to help you in a way that I know how, which means you've got to do these things or you're going to fail, and I don't want you to fail. You've got to have that real concern.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I love it, and they may not believe you in the moment, but I'm sure eventually they're like yeah, Mr Jim, yes, thank you. Thank you for holding my feet to the fire, because I needed that.

Speaker 1:

Well, hopefully they do, sometimes they don't. Sometimes they think I'm an evil man, but these things happen. But I will keep on doing my best for what I believe is best for them, and you've got to have a heart. It's very hard. One of the things I find very hard, jesse, is seeing people fail. That is the most painful thing that happens. And we do fail. All I can say is, if you go into business by yourself, your chances of still being in trade business in 12 months, like cleaning or something, is about between 5% and 10%. With us it's like 88%. We measure these things okay and that's because we keep on pushing people even though they don't want to be pushed, even though they think they know and they think they're right and you're wrong. You've got to help them because you've got to care enough to do it and in the end sometimes you've got to say look, we cannot continue, we've got to pass company. It's destroying everything and that's a very hard conversation to have.

Speaker 2:

I can only imagine. So, Jim, if folks want to get a hold of you or get access to more of your knowledge.

Speaker 1:

Where should we send them? Well, gymsnet, wwwgymsnet, and if they want to email me directly, they can go gym at gyimsnet. I answer emails very fast. If anybody wants to come to Australia and learn how to be a franchisor, you come to our training course. It's a very moderate cost. We'll house you on site, really good food and have a great time. You'll get a chance to meet me and stuff I'm happy to open to anybody who's interested. We call our business the Millionaire Factory because we reckon we've created more billionaires than any other company in this country because we just train people and people often start with a service business and they go on to really huge, substantial businesses. So they start with us. We can teach you from the ground up.

Speaker 2:

Oh, that's amazing. And how many days should they plan? Should we put on our calendar to come down there? Oh, that's amazing. And how many days should they plan.

Speaker 1:

Should we put on our calendar to come down there? The basic generic training course is three days and then we have a franchisor training course we run once a quarter, which is another three days. So basically, come at the right time. It's a six-day course. As I said. It'll cost you about $1,500 plus accommodation and stuff, but it's not expensive.

Speaker 2:

Oh, there you go and that's a nice little two-week vacation in Australia of all places that's amazing, which is a wonderful place to live, you know.

Speaker 1:

I'm buying it.

Speaker 2:

Well, so as we bring this home, Mr Jim, I got the closing question and I imagine you have a pretty profound response to this. What is the?

Speaker 1:

promise you are intended to be. I believe life is about mission. I don't think personal happiness, those kinds of goals really matter. Now I'm a profoundly happy person, but I believe it's so because I have a life for a purpose, and my purpose had to do with my family. I love my kids. I got all my kids and my wife, I my franchisees, my passion for them. It's a purpose, it's a moral reason, it's reason for getting up in the morning, it's a reason for what I do and my passion for my research project, which I believe can immensely help the human race. So to me, and all of this is doing the will of God. That's how I perceive my mission in life. I'm not here to serve my health. I'm here to serve what I believe is important, and that is what life should mean. It should have meaning. It shouldn't be about personal aggrandizement or status or wealth of anything. It should be what can you do? How can you serve?

Speaker 2:

Amazing, I knew it, thank you. Thank you for that, because I know I'm going to be referring back to that piece a few times because I got to keep my head centered. It's very easy for me to get off track and it's about serving others. Did you have a good time? Yeah, Great. Really good, awesome. Well, I appreciate your time, sir, and I'm going to stop recording here.