Learnings and Missteps
The Learnings and Missteps Podcast is about unconventional roads to success and the life lessons learned along the way.
You will find a library of interviews packed with actionable take aways that you can apply as you progress on your career path.
Through these interviews you will learn about the buttons you can push to be a better leader, launch a business, and build your influence.
Find yourself in their stories and know that your path is still ahead of you.
Learnings and Missteps
Dr. Colleen Saringer's Fight for Employee Well-Being
Dr. Colleen Saringer, an expert on workplace toxicity, joins us for an episode rich with insights and personal stories. Growing up in a blue-collar family in Cleveland, Ohio, Dr. Colleen's background shapes her unique perspective on the challenges many face in toxic work environments. A passionate runner and mental health advocate, she shares her journey from marathon starting lines to advocating for healthier work cultures, all while revealing her love for Halloween. Our conversation navigates through her personal experiences and the broader implications of workplace health, reflecting on the powerful impact of fostering supportive environments.
The severe consequences of toxic workplaces are laid bare as we explore the intense pressures that can lead to mental and physical health issues, including the heart-wrenching reality of workplace-related suicides. With Dr. Colleen's guidance, we examine the vital role of HR departments and the need for dedicated leaders in transforming workplace culture. Together, we emphasize the importance of manageable working hours and collective action, encouraging employees to seek better conditions through unity and courage. This discussion sheds light on the essential qualities needed to drive cultural change and safeguard employee well-being.
Public speaking emerges as a transformative tool for both Dr. Colleen and myself, underscoring the power of storytelling and vulnerability in making a meaningful impact. We share our journeys of leaving comfort zones, embracing improv, and pursuing passion-aligned paths. Through this, we discover the true art of communication and the bravery required to pitch oneself as a leader. As we conclude, Dr. Colleen's unwavering commitment to reducing workplace suicides to zero serves as a poignant reminder of the stakes involved. Join us for an episode that promises to inspire change and foster a healthier future for workplaces everywhere.
Connect with Dr Colleen:
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/colleen-saringer-phd/
Website: https://www.colleensaringer.com/
Make yourself a priority and get more done: https://www.depthbuilder.com/do-the-damn-thing
Download a PDF copy of Becoming the Promise You are Intended to Be
https://www.depthbuilder.com/books
I started working when I was 13. Like, the option in our house was to work. Am I nervous? Am I uncomfortable? Hell yeah, but I'm so freaking excited from the energy that comes from it. I wanted to be able to, like, ask more questions and find the misfits and the outliers and uncover the stuff that we're not talking about, but we need to be one. Suicide that is related to work environments is too many.
Speaker 2:What is going on L&M family. I'm back and we got a good one for you, dr Colleen Sandrington, who I got to meet in person in Savannah. Shout out to Ms Megan for putting that Savannah in September thing together. We got to me. I got to sit right next to her and like feed off of her energy I love this little moniker Blue Collar Woman Wrapped in a PhD Package, so that makes me feel a little more comfortable. Ms Dr Colleen is a keynote speaker and she attacks, works on chews, on challenges, the hidden toll of workplace toxicity. So all my culture warriors out there, I think this conversation is going to resonate with you and I know that I'm going to learn a little bit. And if you're new here, this is the Learnings and Missteps podcast, where you get to see how real people just like you are sharing their gifts and talents to leave this world better than they found it. I'm Jesse and let's get to know Dr Colleen. Dr Colleen, how are you doing?
Speaker 1:I'm doing great.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:I can't complain. It's Halloween. I hope that's okay to say that, but it's one of my favorite days out of the entire year. I love the month of October, so I'm doing great today.
Speaker 2:So, okay, what are your thoughts If you had to take a pick between Halloween, thanksgiving and Christmas? What's your order? One, two, three.
Speaker 1:Literally exactly how you just said them Halloween, thanksgiving and Christmas. And what's your order? One, two, three. Literally exactly how you just said them Halloween, thanksgiving and Christmas.
Speaker 2:You said them perfect, I love them in the order that they are oh nice. And is it the dress up about Halloween? The candy? What is it that gets you excited?
Speaker 1:So for me it is definitely great memories as a kid, trick-or-treating, and then as an adult it is fall. To me October is the best month. Everywhere in the world it is the best month the colors, the temperature, so that. And then I love the decorations. I decorate inside my house so I can enjoy the decorations. What good are they outside if I can't see them?
Speaker 2:Ah, yes, I super like that, okay, okay.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's how I would answer it. Yeah, what about you?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I love. I'm going to say Thanksgiving, then Halloween, then Christmas. Thanksgiving is because of the food, right, like I could just gorge and gorge and eat delicious stuff everywhere I go, and in San Antonio it's like tamales season, right? So tamales galore everywhere. That's not to say I can't get them all year round, but during that Thanksgiving season it feels like that's when a lot of people make them at home and so I get to go and scab and eat somebody's delicious protein bars they're known as protein bars now.
Speaker 1:I didn't know that.
Speaker 2:Yeah yeah, it's a joke. Right Like they're. They're not necessarily a protein bar.
Speaker 1:They're a lot of fat and cholesterol.
Speaker 2:Right, right, but if you call it a protein bar, maybe it qualifies. So, doctor, you are a doctor, like official PhD, peer-reviewed publications and all kinds of really pretty fancy stuff. No joke, serious business. What are the secrets that people don't know about you? But they should?
Speaker 1:So thank you for calling out the PhD. I really appreciate that. That was hard-ass work, but I signed up for it myself. No one told me that I had to do it, so I got to feel my nerdy brain, which I think that's maybe one of the secrets is I'm like total nerd in a good way, right, like I love to ask questions, peel the layer of the onion back as many times as I can, and that's why I got a PhD. I wanted to be able to like ask more questions and find the misfits and the outliers and uncover the stuff that we're not talking about. But we need to be. So that's one thing. The other thing I'll say I'm originally from Cleveland Ohio, so that's why I call myself that blue collar woman wrapped in a PhD package.
Speaker 1:I am a lunch pail city kid, like that is. My parents owned a sheet metal shop growing up. As I was growing up, they ran it for 30 years, so I love the smell of a good shop. Take me into a Home Depot any day of the week. Yeah, so from Cleveland Ohio, but live in Atlanta, georgia. I'm trying to think what else? What other kind of fun things? I'm a runner, I talk health and wellbeing. I live it, I breathe it. It's like it's my thing. So I'm a runner. I've run 17 marathons. Just crossed the finish line of my 17th in Hartford, connecticut, a couple of weeks ago.
Speaker 2:Congratulations.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and then the last thing that I'll say is I am super focused on mental health, and that's because that I have a story. I think many of us have a story, and I think, when I think about the work that I'm really trying to lean into when it comes to organizations is because my story has roots in my family, and I think we all do in some way, and so that's the kind of last thing that I'll share, unless you want me to, unless you want to peel the layer of the onion back.
Speaker 2:Oh, I'm going to peel away, sister, you've got to believe. So I've run a few marathons myself. I'm not at 17. I've done six. I don't have a PhD, but I I dated um, an amazing human being who worked and earned her EDD. So I know, or I have a sense of the tenacity and endurance it takes to run a marathon and get the PhD. Now that is just through, like observation. I had nothing, like I didn't do any of the damn work, but I could see the commitment and sacrifice.
Speaker 1:Now, and so my question is when did that tenacity and commitment to things like marathon running and earning a PhD, when did you first become aware of that Option in our house was to work right?
Speaker 2:So, as I'm saying, this out loud.
Speaker 1:Maybe that's it, but when I think about, like, when I did have to like officially attach a resume to something or, sorry, a cover letter to a resume, my cover letter always talked about my tenacity. I always said I have this level of tenacity. I don't know if I can actually like point to something, but I think that's part of the upbringing right. I can actually like point to something, but I think that's part of the upbringing right. My roots was raised by baby boomer parents and, yeah, our option was to work when we turned 13, like that was the option, and so I think the answer really does wrap itself around all the things that we know our environment influences us for in regards to what we become.
Speaker 1:I would say, when I think about who my parents are, what they taught me. I mean they were both business owners together. The option was to just go and figure it out.
Speaker 2:And I imagine if they were both business owners, you got to watch them like work during the day and then all the work that happens like outside of the office in terms of managing the business and the household and everything else Like you hear people nowadays talking about passive income and this sort of thing but you don't really understand like it's all work. It all works it just looks different.
Speaker 1:Yes, exactly, and like that, passive income doesn't just come.
Speaker 2:I know it's work. If it's work, then it makes it happen, Right? Yes, oh, my goodness, so okay. So, PhD, what was your field of study? Or what was the dissertation that you produced and had to defend? What was that about?
Speaker 2:Before we get to that, we are going to do the L&M family member shout out and I got one that I'm excited about. It kind of makes me blush a little bit, but this one goes to Mr Ben. Mr Ben went out of his way to leave this comment and he said I noticed a few posts you made about haters and wanted to tell you I'm a Jesse Hernandez fan. You may not hear that enough. I've seen your work, lived your backstory and believe in you and your message. It's easy to get mixed up sometimes, but I know what you can do and I'm thrilled to watch you do it Best. Regards Ben. So Ben, thank you so much for taking the time to leave such a thoughtful note.
Speaker 2:And folks out there, L&M family you know any creators at all? I promise you if you leave a comment, you will make their day. It is super, super meaningful because very few people do that. And if you take the time to leave a review, leave a comment or whatever for me, I'm going to take the opportunity to highlight you on future podcast interviews. So again, let's keep doing the recognition and the support.
Speaker 1:So my dissertation, what I am all about policy at work and not in policies that penalize people. Policy gets such a bad rap, but we are not talking about the policies that remove barriers for people to then do something better for themselves. Okay, so I researched and defended physical activity policies in the workplace, specifically giving individuals at minimum 30 minutes out of their workday. No penalty to work hours, also, not at lunch. This was in addition to lunch and whatever breaks they had to go and move. And because it's a PhD, you frame it around something. So I framed it around creating this. Again, it's removing barriers.
Speaker 1:If I only have 30 minutes, then I framed it around walk routes that were already mapped outside and broke it down by 10 minute increments, 15 minute increments and 30 minute increments, so that if I only had 10 minutes, I could run outside and do that Now. The other thing, though, is I did my, even though I'm here in Atlanta. When I did my PhD, I got so many no's because I wanted a. I mean, I needed a real company to do what to do this. And everybody said no, they're like it's going to cost me all this money, Like my people aren't going to be doing, they're not going to be working.
Speaker 1:The best part was I had a law firm, billable hours a law firm, so they were out of Cleveland, and it was just a reminder of you have to take into account elements, winter, so you also then create walk routes inside the company. You can do that, we can do that everywhere. So, anyways, that's what I researched, and the whole point was to see does that increase individuals' level of physical activity, productivity, all that good stuff. So it was pretty successful. It's published.
Speaker 2:Nice Congratulations Wow.
Speaker 1:It's a big policy person. Because that is how when we remove the barriers for people, that is how they then walk into that choice we make it the easy choice period.
Speaker 2:Yes, so, like we said, the policies are the parameters of the boundaries, constraints, whatever word you want to plug in that set the conditions for people to grow or shrink in, would you agree?
Speaker 1:Absolutely. It can go both ways, absolutely.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, because I've been in a few situations where it was all about shrinkage and that was not part.
Speaker 1:Right. So that's bad policy, negative. We only want positive policies when it comes to bettering the workplace, we don't want to penalize, we want it to be a positive.
Speaker 2:Oh, my goodness. Okay, so 13 years old. For folks out there that don't have the numbers one and nine before their year of their birth, we used to have to go to the business and fill out applications. You remember that, dr Colleen?
Speaker 1:Yes, although that is not how I got my job, but yes, oh, how did you do it then? So after church, we went into this bakery and there was a woman that I or a girl, I guess at the time, cause I was 13 that was working there, that went to my high school, and my mom was like, oh, are you guys hiring she needs a job? And they were like yes, we are, I'll see you on Tuesday.
Speaker 2:That was everything. After that, though, I did write the paper application. Would you credit those experiences to triggering or planting the seeds of curiosity in your head around organizational health and these types of situations that maybe are ignored, overlooked or under misunderstood in terms of culture?
Speaker 1:So, yeah, so, and, of course, interrupt me if you feel like I'm not answering the question, but I would 100% point it back to my parents. Ah, because of what I watched, because of how I watched my parents, mostly my dad and his health and the impact that it had on him Okay.
Speaker 1:So I was five years old when they opened up this business. They start my dad and my grandfather went in on it together, mostly because my grandfather had just lost his job. He only had about five years left to work. This was a great opportunity for him to finally open up this business that he always wanted to do with my dad. So, going into it, they knew that he was only going to be there for a short time, so, fast forward that time comes, where my grandfather is transitioning out really more so, like the day came. Yeah, my dad was, cause he was a sheet metal worker so he would handle the guys outside and all that stuff, but he was doing some internal office work. But in hindsight he'll tell you it wasn't enough right, because what happened was when that baton was fully passed on.
Speaker 1:He was running the business the way my grandfather was, not the way he could handle, and as a result of that and I share this in this keynote speech, that I do, but as a result of the stress and the pressure. One, he's a man. I mean we have to call it what it is right. Men and women, we are raised with just different. Man. I mean we have to call it what it is right Men and women, we are raised with just different. We're just raised different, right. And so because not only is he a man, he has a wife, three kids, I have two sisters.
Speaker 1:He was so overwhelmed from trying to transition fully that he planned on taking his life one day, and instead he drove himself to the hospital. And so that's how I learned about the toll that the work the environment can have on a human, so that I would say that, and then I would even fast forward at this point in time. Now I'm, I am actually like in college and deciding my major. I'll never forget my dad was 48 and finally, things were running on his own. Him and my mom had their own flow. This was years later, and I'll never forget saying to him dad, you are going to have a heart attack. You are so stressed out.
Speaker 1:Something had shifted in the business. He was so stressed out. Sure enough, he had a heart attack, he's retired and all the things right. But in hindsight, work can be, at the end of the day, the work is the work. The sheet metal work was the sheet metal work. We're not going to change that work ever. We're not going to change construct. We can't change the work, but we can change the way that we treat ourselves others. So it's a long-winded way to say that I do believe that those are the things that really kind of nudged me along my path.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's obvious to me If you see your dad, of all people you see every day suffering and struggling and fighting, and, just like you said, the sheep, like people, ask me all the time what do you think is the hardest trade? None of them, it's all the same stuff. Nobody's doing anything like magical. We connect things together and put them up in a certain order. That's not the hard part. Physically, there's some toll.
Speaker 2:The part that, like, really is difficult is the human part, right, the way we treat ourselves about the pressures and stuff that are within the work and the way we treat others with regard to the pressure, pressures and stresses of the work. And so you got to see that impacting your dad directly, so much so that he was willing to end his life and he didn't. So thank goodness for that. But then you predicted a heart attack and he had a heart attack which is like this Unfortunately, this is not a rare story, except that he didn't like he drove himself to the hospital. That's kind of rare. But the fact that the work itself, or the pressures of the work, of the role and responsibility that he had, made life intolerable for him, that is not an uncommon story, absolutely.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. I mean one of the things when I look at the stuff that I taught the stuff hello. I could probably use better language than that. But when I look at what I talk about in regards to toxic work environments and what is actually like research has told us will exacerbate anxiety, depression, suicidal thoughts and suicides. One of them is long working hours, those high demand there is an actual number around how many hours. And so when I always look at that one and I think, yeah, I mean dad. I would see him wake up at four o'clock in the morning to go to one of the job sites, get home at 11. I don't know what time he's, I don't know when he slept.
Speaker 2:Right, and that was every day for weeks and months on end.
Speaker 1:Until he had that crisis and realized this business is running me. I cannot run it this way.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. So what would you say to the folks that are saying, well, yeah, but that's him running his business. I'm an employee and I don't have the autonomy to change my situation. What could they do?
Speaker 1:So I do believe I'm going to answer this with an ant. Okay, cause I want to say this out loud boots on the ground pains me until there's no end. Boots on the ground in regards to advocating like the employee actually having to push upstream pains me until there is no tomorrow, because this is the business owner's responsibility to set that period right. Yeah, but as an employee, I do have things that I can still take control of.
Speaker 1:I do have things that I can still take control of, and those to me are things like if I do have an opportunity to leave and find another job, look for something that has predictable working hours.
Speaker 1:So, in other words, when I think about summers here in Atlanta and I think about my husband who runs a construction business down here, we know summers, because of the way the weather is, are going to be extremely long or the days are going to be extremely long, but we know what the working hours are.
Speaker 1:We're always going to start early because of the heat right, and end early day. We know Friday is always going to be a detailed job day because everyone's exhausted, so it's going to be an easy day because we're also worried about like safety and things like that. So to me, even if you're inside your current company that you're working for, you can ask those things, you can push and say, hey, I risk although I want to use again saying, and even though you can ask the boss that there may come with the negative outcome of well, you can get out of here, right, I don't want to dismiss that that sadly, sometimes the option is we can't speak, but I do believe that there's an opportunity to advocate for that, not just by yourself but with those around you.
Speaker 2:Sure, absolutely.
Speaker 1:A boss does not want to see the full crew walk off the job.
Speaker 2:Not at all. Well, and I agree with you on both ends. Yes, decision makers within organizations, they got to do better and we can vote with our feet. And I understand how scary that is. Well, maybe I don't, because I'm a little crazy. Right? If I don't like the way I'm being treated, I'm out. Done, I'm moving to the next one. Done, I'm moving to the next one.
Speaker 2:And that's probably scary for a lot of folks because they have different responsibilities, to add family and all these things. But at least in the construction industry, you don't have to tolerate people neglecting and abusing you. There is plenty of work out there, so much, and there is a growing number of leaders that are creating a situation that better serves their people and that the way to accelerate that number is for those of us in bad situations to leave those situations. Yes, and I understand it's difficult, I understand it's scary, but we do have a say Like we do have a vote. We really do. But we do have a say like we do have a vote, we really do. And the business owners are the ones that struggle or really carry. They're the ones that have the most leverage to make it better, faster. Yes, and so it's my understanding that you help counsel, advise small business owners on how to do it more gooder for their people.
Speaker 1:More gooder. I love that you said that. So can I also just make one quick additional comment about back to the employee, Because I think, because I love what you said yes, there, there are some people that can't do it Right and I respect that. Fear is there. I come from a money like a scarcity money mindset. I'm not going to dismiss the fact that it is there. It's scary. But also to the pushback is you can set your boundaries to. That's another voice opportunity to advocate for yourself and the crew or whoever of I'm. This is what I was hired to do. This is the box that I'm working in, period Yep. So anyways, I didn't want to dismiss that. But so yeah, absolutely yeah. So all that to say yes, I do. I.
Speaker 1:My focus is the small business owner, because I do believe two things. One, small businesses. I mean that's what runs America. As far as I'm concerned, they we make up just about 50% of the economy. That's what runs. Small business runs the economy. And then two small businesses have the opportunity to make the workplaces great. The red tape isn't there and you don't need money to do these things. It is just teeny, tiny practices.
Speaker 2:No cost. So let's talk more about that. It doesn't cost money. So two simple examples maybe not simple, but two practical examples of things that small business owner can do that aren't going to cost them any money but will transform their culture and provide a better environment for their people.
Speaker 1:One get boots on the ground with your people. I want to see that business owner working side by side with those guys at some point on a job that right there. If you want to build trust and respect, there is nothing better than seeing the boss boots on the ground, rolling up the sleeve doing the dirty work. I watched it work for my dad. I see it work for my husband. It is a no brainer. Get in the throes with your guys or your gals, whoever. One easy peasy. The other thing that does is it fosters.
Speaker 1:The biggest thing that I push is the employee voice. Ask people, they have the answers. So me boss. I think I know what my company needs and my people need. You have no idea they do. They do, so ask them. I'm actually going to throw in a third. But all that to say you cannot create better unless your boot's on the ground at some point with your employees, that you're talking to them and asking for their voice and for the solution, because then they are going to be bought in because they helped. Right, they are going to be full throttle. And then the third one and this is going to sound so silly, but I cannot say this loud enough. Be kind, say good morning, be safe. Thank you for your hard work today.
Speaker 1:Wow, that was nothing. That's a game changer. People want to be seen and heard and feel as though that could change someone's life.
Speaker 2:Absolutely, absolutely. Oh, I love it and I agree 100%. That's kind of what I help, that kind of it's an element of what I do in helping the clients that I serve is the magic is when you go and spend time maybe not observing and even doing the work that the people do. You, as a leader, build empathy for the work and the worker, because now you understand how much it actually sucks, yes, and then you're compelled to make it better. Like this sucks Now and, like you said, we're sweating together, we're kind of griming it up together.
Speaker 2:We now have a foundation for trust and dialogue, just by proximity, just by being in the same place, together, focused on the same objective. And, like you said, they are the ones who've been experiencing the damn pain of the work. So they have the ones who've been experiencing the damn pain of the work. So they have the ideas. You, as the leader, you have the influence and authority to make it better. You need them to inform you on what exactly precisely to do to make it better and then, once that flywheel gets going, it's magic. So, and if you can't do that, try to be kind.
Speaker 1:Yes, yes, just say hello and good morning. And how was your thank you? Thank you for sweating all day.
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly Know their name. Thank you, demonstrate some appreciation. I've been banging the drum on this because I got to see it. Where was I? Where's Des Moines, iowa?
Speaker 1:Iowa right, I was in Iowa.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and it was a big old, giant data center and we had, I don't know, somewhere like 800 or 900 electricians on it, a lot of them from out of state traveling into work. There was another data center by a competing general contractor and a competing owner coming up down the road. They offered a stipend to the electricians that were on our project to go over there a couple hundred bucks a week for every electrician that would go over there. And we were like, oh my God, everybody's going to leave, we're going to lose our electricians. About 15, 20% of them went and they weren't like the cream of the crop 15 or 20%, it was like the pains in the butt, the prima donna, those.
Speaker 2:And so I got to ask the rest of them why didn't y'all? That's 200 bucks a week, that's a year, that's 10 grand. Why did you stay? And oh no, we've worked on with that contractor, we know how they're going to treat us. It is not worth the $200. Over here We've got clean, paved parking, we've got a place to eat lunch, things are organized, we can get work like. It is not worth the 200 bucks. And so, like my take, this was years. It was, I don't know, maybe four or five years ago. But my take was oh my goodness, people are giving passing on dollars, which still doesn't make sense to me. It just tells you how greedy I am to work in better conditions. And so the leaders, the decision makers that figure out how to systematically demonstrate appreciation for the people that they have connection or contact with, they're going to win this game. Am I lying?
Speaker 1:Oh my gosh, you're speaking 100%. It's a no-brainer and we have research that backs it up. People are not going to go across the street for an extra buck in these really hard jobs if they know that they have it really good where they are.
Speaker 2:Yes, yes, just being treated like a human? Yes. So I was perusing your website and I saw that it feels like maybe you've had people have made references to you being from, or in the HR world, and there you have a clear delineation between HR and organizational health. Did I interpret that correctly?
Speaker 1:And I feel very strongly about making sure that is understood.
Speaker 2:Oh, so let's talk about it please.
Speaker 1:Understood. Oh, so let's talk about it please. Yeah, so this is no insult to those individuals that have human resource jobs. I have friends that like that's what their job is, Yay, it's the department and what the department stands for. That I do believe we have set up for failure. That I do believe we have set up for failure. We are asking them to do this organizational change work, which we have said. We don't want to spend any extra money have HR do it is for the company, that is who they are for.
Speaker 1:Again, we have set up people for failure in this department if we are asking them to take this work. In addition to that, with all due respect, they also don't have the training. They don't understand the behavior change. I understand that there's some classes and things like that, that a lot of happens within the human resource world, but there is some science behind some of this in regards to human, in regards to the organization, and so that's the other part of me that's a little protective, right To say let's bring in the experts to do the work. Would HR be at the table? 100%, Every department needs to be at the table for this work, but you have to have somebody leading the charge or else nothing happens. And again, I believe if we set HR up to lead the charge, we're really setting ourselves up for failure because of what the department stands for.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yes, yeah, oh, I love it. So I'm not the only one I agree on several points. I, I love it. So I'm not the only one I agree on several points. For a long time I misunderstood HR to be an advocate for me as the employee, because some HR professionals actually are and they manage. They have learning management systems under their purview, they've got recruiting under their purview, they've got talent management and protecting the company from liability, which is their core, the core function of the human resource element, which too many of us aren't aware of.
Speaker 2:I know a lot of people that get really irritated with their HR department. It's like they don't want to change. That means they're doing their job right. Their job is to maintain I shouldn't say their. The HR function serves to protect the business. It serves to maintain the status quo and guard the business against liability. That's the HR function. Human beings that fall in that department often will take on extra responsibility and will say tightwad, business owners try to make hr do all the other stuff that's too fluffy and squishy and they set them up for failure, just just like you said. Now I can say hey, dr Colleen said it ain't just me, jesse smack talking plumber. Dr Colleen said too.
Speaker 1:But you said it, perfect. I mean there are some amazing people in that function. That again friends of mine and I know they want to do right by their people but they can't.
Speaker 2:Right Because they have this certain level of or directive right the directive, their responsibility, their core function is this, and so is that what the idea of chief culture officer comes from.
Speaker 1:Yeah, 100%. So there are some companies out there that have started to bring on chief well-being officers. The word well-being, just, we can save that for a whole nother conversation because it gets such a negative connotation. And so, at the end of the day, yes, we are trying to enhance the well-being of the organization and the people, but the only way we can do that is through the culture, and again, we also need someone to lead the charge. Any party that you ever wanted to plan, it never happened, unless there was one person that was always bringing the circus together, right?
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:So that's so long-winded to say yes, that's what that is.
Speaker 2:Good. So when we're thinking, let's just say I've seen the error of my ways or one of the L&M family members out there running their business, ok, this damn people thing is important. What should they look for in?
Speaker 1:a culture officer or somebody to lead the charge of growing, maintaining, stabilizing all the work that goes into the culture of a company. So they do have to have some form of behavioral health training, and that is not just. I took a class. I studied overarching health and wellbeing and promotion all the things that go under it. So they do have to have some form of training. In addition to again understanding how the organization works, you have to also have a business brain at the table and that is not necessarily like to me. Sometimes I do believe that's innate. Like I consider myself an extreme business person, that's just something that I learned from being the product of business owners.
Speaker 2:Yeah, do you know it. So why is that important to have with that business brain?
Speaker 1:Because of the fact that this culture, work is, it's going to thread itself through every single aspect of the working business and it's business. So we're going to have some form of metrics right. Some use the word KPI, whatever fancy word you want. There has to be some way to measure it, and so if you don't understand that from just a general business sense, then I just feel like you're only there for kind of like a one track of I want to do this and I want to do that. I get it, but there is still a business mind that has to figure out.
Speaker 1:Okay, this priority can't happen right now because of X, we will table that, we won't throw it away, but we have to do Y. So even if we have an order we want to follow, sometimes we have to go out of order because the business tells us we have to do why. So, even if we have an order we want to follow, sometimes we have to go out of order because the business tells us we have to. So at the end of the day, business still has to run right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, absolutely. That was a hard lesson I had to learn and I don't know why I still haven't figured out exactly why because I'm very production focused, right my brain automatic, like I'm calculating how long does it take to do something and how can we do that better, faster. But I've always I shouldn't say always in the two big jobs I've had like real jobs. Eventually I migrated towards the people department, right that, the organizational health, learning and development, hr. For some reason I could jive with those folks. Now, early on I wanted to do stuff because I knew or believed and felt like it would be better, but I could not make a case because I didn't understand how to contextualize it into business terms. And then I saw my friends and, in case y'all don't know, l&m family member, you want to be with some wild, crazy people when it's time to get loose HR professionals, you better be ready because they are. There's something else. Anyways, that's off script.
Speaker 2:I saw so many of my friends in the people department or people centered roles, I guess, like just be so frustrated and irritated because they would get rejected outright, their ideas would get minimized and disregarded.
Speaker 2:And it was for the same reason because they couldn't contextualize it in business terms, meaning, what's the cost, how long is it going to take for us to make some kind of obvious impact on performance, on the business, on production or whatever? Like just get in the box some kind of idea of what the end result should look like and it was like well, but it's the right thing to do, we know it. Okay, fine. And so they didn't have much ground to stand on. They lost a lot of credibility because they couldn't make themselves a valued business partner at the table. They had a lot of ideas, they had a lot of opinions. They had a lot of opinions. And so what are some things these people, centered individuals can do so that they can understand how to translate their ideas, so that the decision makers will be supportive of it and say, yeah you use the word business partner.
Speaker 1:You have to understand the partnership right With every business unit. So if you have this grand idea, cool, go take it to the sales department, find out what they're measuring, what their pain points are, what ask them to partner with you to help you be able to put it in different terms. Okay, this is how it's going to impact sales. Okay, now let's go to production. All right, what are your pain points? What are your right Like? They have the answers. It all goes back to the employee voice or the department voice. They're the partner, like. They're the ones that are going to help you create the business case, and you also are going to need their buy-in, so you may as well start early and ask them right.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:That is an easy win right there. I think it's a no-brainer.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it is a no-brainer when it's your default mode, but for a lot of people it's not right. I have my great idea, I want to bring it to the table. My title says director of whatever and nobody's buying into my idea because it's only my idea. I haven't socialized the idea at all, and if I were to socialize the idea I could get really valuable intel to weave into my pitch and I'll already have some advocacy because people know that I'm tinkering around with this thing. And so it's just like you said earlier to the business owner go talk to the damn people.
Speaker 1:They hold the key to the castle of success, literally.
Speaker 2:Oh, it's so simple. It's just be cool, right, be human, go talk to people, listen to them. I know, for me, one of the struggles I've had is like demoting my objective temporarily so that I can really understand your objective. That helped me make a lot of progress in terms of making recommendations that were going to require a significant dollar investment. They were going to require significant time of executives within the BU or the organization to do the thing, but because I spent a lot of time talking and learning and understanding and was able to craft the message and said this is the commitment and the cost and this is the targeted outcome. And this is the commitment and the cost and this is the targeted outcome and this is how it relates. I didn't know that upfront and I couldn't Google it. I had to talk to the people, right? Like again, talk to the people.
Speaker 1:But I think we can't dismiss. We're also human and ego is always going to come to play right, and that's cool. Feel it and then put it on the shelf.
Speaker 2:No ego amigo because it's not going to get you far, but that's cool, feel it. And then put it on the shelf. No, ego, amigo, because it's not going to get you far, but that's okay for me to come up to you and say, dr Colleen, I got this initiative, I want to accomplish this thing. This is why I'm talking to you and put that on the shelf. Help me understand what your experience is on this matter, because I'm not going to manipulate or convince or strong arm you into agreeing with me. I told you what my objective is. Put it on the shelf. Help me understand what your experience is from this particular set of circumstances, because we want to do something differently about it. And in that conversation you get to say, jesse, you're barking up the wrong tree.
Speaker 1:It's not a problem for me, darn it, let me go find somebody else, right, but I think you said the most important question or phrase. Help me understand that immediately. That's gold when you set that up for it. It's not a. I want to do this. Help me understand. Do you have the same challenge? If yes, or maybe you see it, whatever the case may be, that is the gold question. Slash statement.
Speaker 2:Oh, okay, folks, you already heard. Write it down. Hit the rewind button. Does it even qualify as a rewind button?
Speaker 1:I think we could say it qualifies. I think it's got to think.
Speaker 2:Write it down. There's the secret code. Okay, so, phd, you've run 300 million marathons. That's a lot of miles, like for real, and because I know running a 26.2 mile race, there's hundreds of miles that go into the train. Well, it may not be miserable, but it's work. Got your PhD, that's no simple task. You're running your own business now and public speaking. I'm going to say, or ask is the public speaking thing, keynote speaking, the primary objective?
Speaker 1:Yeah, it is. It has become my primary objective. I had to take a consult and educate more from a state, and so I want to see the workplace be better than it has been for me. I just want to see it be better. People do love going to work. There's community there. We should want to go to work, but a lot of people don't right. So all that, my goal is to impact more and I believe that's possible from stage and if somebody wants to work with me after that, I mean I tee up my framework and all that good stuff that we'll do. And if we were to go deeper from a client relationship but there's enough information I feel like in the presentations that somebody could at least walk away with something.
Speaker 2:Oh, I love that, Okay. So how long did it take you to say you know what? The vehicle to help me achieve the outcome I want is public speaking. How long did it take you to see kind of like a foggy representation of that? Maybe there's something in public speaking to. This is the damn thing I'm gonna do so.
Speaker 1:So one of the things I didn't share is so I left corporate in in April of 2023 so it's been over a year and a half when I said I'm done, I want to make a bigger impact Right. And so I always spoke. I was always at the table for sales meetings because, at the end of the day, it's an educational conversation, right, like sales is. If you're doing it well, it's not sales, right? So sign me up to yap at a sales meeting, sign me up to yap at a. And I'm yapping because I get to educate. I'm an educator at heart. That's who I am, and so I always did that in my corporate life and loved it. I mean, it fueled my fire.
Speaker 1:And so when I left and said, okay, I'm going to go out on my own, I want to focus on small business I felt like I had to. What I learned growing up work you have to do it this way. There's this, right. And so I felt, okay, I've got to go straight into consulting, thinking that, in addition to consulting, I'll try to get in front of more associations, conferences, things like that, and I finally the resistance that I was just feeling in myself of this doesn't feel good. I didn't feel any different than when I left the company that I walked away from. It's because I'm not being true to myself. I had to have a self-awareness check.
Speaker 2:Okay, yes.
Speaker 1:Out loud. I'm like I'm not being true to me, shame on me. So that so it was about mid year this year that I said I've got to flip this. I've got to flip it to what excites me, and that's what excites me.
Speaker 2:Oh my goodness, I love that. You pointed out that there was an internal friction that you knew like something's wrong. I know what's wrong. It's my focus, oh my God. I know what's wrong. It's my focus, oh my God. Because I know on my path and many of the L&M family members out there, we have that. We have that friction and we try to suppress it and we reinforce it because other people think we're already crazy, doing crazy things. What's wrong with you leaving that corporate job? What the hell are you doing? You had it like all of that, but your heart, your soul, is telling you, man, something like this, ain't it? You got to do something differently, and for me, that falls in the realm of becoming the promise you are intended to be. I feel believe that we all are a promise to be fulfilled, and discovering or surrendering to what that is is the thing. And I feel like what you described is articulating what that surrender feels like. And now I'm going to do this.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I love that. Yes, that's exactly it. You summarized it perfectly. You put it in words I didn't even know existed.
Speaker 2:Okay. So you said I'm going to do public speaking and did you like? Wake up the next day and there were tons of people knocking on your door, emails of hey, come do my keynote Hell, no.
Speaker 1:Hell, no, oh, was there work involved? Back to our original convo. Guess who gets stages? The person that's willing to pitch and put in the time and effort. It's the way it works. You have to be willing to do the work, so that's it. So I'm in the throes of the work, which is making me fine tune my message and it's allowing me to learn and stretch and be really uncomfortable in all the things.
Speaker 2:Okay. So what have you learned about yourself? A couple of lessons since taking on and being on, because I know you were just on stage at the Speak she conference, and I'm probably not the only one. What have you discovered about yourself after actually doing it?
Speaker 1:So this is a fun question. So I would say that it confirmed that fire. When I say it lights me up, am I nervous? Am I uncomfortable? Hell yeah, but I'm so freaking excited from the energy that comes from it. So I would say that the other interesting thing that I've learned is how much I do love storytelling and sharing and the vulnerability, but also that I have more opportunity to be even more vulnerable in a good way, in a way that I know right is going to make a greater impact. But I'm also still a little nervous myself, because then you're like it's all out there, oh yeah. And then this one is so this other one I think I may have mentioned this when we were in Savannah together. I am, when I speak, I am almost always scripted and I'm using air quotes to say that I have practiced so much that it is going to come out in extremely conversational way.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:Which means that I have a big opportunity that I need to learn how to lean into the unknown when something doesn't go right. So the so I signed up for an improv class to try to start, so I did improv for 10 weeks.
Speaker 1:So that was something that I really needed to learn more of. I know my stuff, like we all know our stuff. It's the imposter syndrome that comes behind us and makes us feel less than or whatever. But I'm like, no, I need to strengthen that muscle. So I leaned into that one and then that one is going to be so silly. But when I was at that Speak she event on Sunday, the whole thing was I wasn't allowed to move from behind the standing microphone and I realized that is not my jam, I need to use the stage.
Speaker 2:Yes, oh, but that's an. I need to use the stage. Yes, oh, that's it, but that's an important thing to know.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and you don't know that until you do it, yeah, and then I'll just probably throw out one more. I mean again, I think the feedback that I've been getting from what I talk about that's the whole reason I'm up there is that you spoke to me. Thank you so much. I wish every CEO could hear you or work with you, or it's that, it's knowing that I touched what I wanted to touch. Even if they can't go back to their workplace and do it, at least it hits something within them, and that's the whole point, that's the impact part.
Speaker 2:Right Cause they know they're not alone anymore. Impact part Right Cause they know they're not alone anymore, the message you give resonates with them. Okay, I'm not some crazy psycho. Yes, at least there's another one.
Speaker 1:If I am, there's a tribe.
Speaker 2:Oh, my God, oh, I love it. So, especially the improv. I believe it or not, I took an improv class, also sing things, and it was 10 weeks. We ended it, capped it off with an onstage presentation with an audience Did you do the same thing Same thing and I got to make a confession. But you can't tell anybody.
Speaker 1:No one's listening.
Speaker 2:Right, right, nobody's listening. So I was. I really expected to be like the all-star of the group Surprise and what I found was it took about. We're probably in the fourth or fifth week before I stopped saying no. I wasn't saying the word no, but my reaction or response to the exercises and things that we did was no, yes, we need to be yes, and and, for whatever reason, I couldn't yes and I could only no and I would disrupt the flow of the groove that was happening and it was difficult, it was challenging, and I'm like why do I suck at this so bad? Because I'm an easygoing, fun, crazy guy. That's the mask. That was the mask. I didn't know how to let things be and just go with the flow. And what do you think about that?
Speaker 1:So exactly what was coming up for me with that was two things. One, set your team up for success. Now I finally get the full trans, not transition, the full dotted line or straight line that so many people are trying to bring improv to the workplace, because it's literally about setting up for success, not shutting it down, which is right, like what was happening.
Speaker 2:Yes, yes, yes. So it's like being able for me no-transcript with the person I'm dancing with Not everybody, because I'm kind of again like I like attention a little too much when I'm dancing, I start watching people to see if they're watching me, okay, and the dance is not as good as if I was a hundred percent focused on my partner. And so there's a similar thing what you talked about in the workplace as a manager, a person with responsibility within the organization, I need to be able to dance with what's coming, respond to the pressure, respond to the tempo and adjust proportionately, or rather respond proportionately as opposed to what we typically will do, because we're stressed and overreact and shut down creativity, disconnect people from their agency, and so being able to just take what's coming and flow with it, which is the improv thing, is a monster game changer.
Speaker 1:Yes, oh my gosh. Yes, I love how you also equated that to dancing, because it's so true.
Speaker 2:Yeah, oh, oh, okay. So back to Bob, we're getting into improv, which is awesome Public speaking thing. You said you're doing the work, not so much on getting clear on what your message is and presentation and flow of the delivery. Getting on stage, what should people do?
Speaker 1:Getting on stage. What should people do that you wish you had the time to do 10 times more of? This is a pitching business. So you have, literally every single day it is a pitch Reaching out to associations. That's a big one in regards to like, hey, do you have an opportunity for me to write for your trade magazine, or whatever the case may be. So I would answer it that way those two things. I know that I'm a leader in my industry, but no one else does Right, and so I have to let them know. And so it's every single day pitching.
Speaker 2:Nice, nice, and it's working so far.
Speaker 1:It is. If anything, it's for all the no's I get. At least I have refined my message and that's it.
Speaker 2:Dr Colleen, I think that's an understated thing, and not just in public speaking. But like anything, if you struggle with it, like the fear of being rejected, I understand that. I think that's a human thing that we all understand. But if you have a dream that you want to bring to life, I hope that you can make it happen on your first try. I also know I don't know how to make that happen except for to try a bunch of times, and so now, running my business and doing the crazy things that I do, now I understand. Okay, I have this idea that I need to pitch, and these first 10 to 20 pitches are just so that I can get better about my pitch.
Speaker 1:Yes, so you can get the feedback.
Speaker 2:I'm not going to get better without those reps, and then when I get good at it, then I get the yeses. What do you think?
Speaker 1:Oh, 100%. The majority of life is a no Right. There's only a few yeses that come in life.
Speaker 2:The majority of life is a no. That's a t-shirt, Dr Colleen. The majority of life is a no. Damn, there's some reality for you.
Speaker 1:It's just. I wish it was more sunshine and roses. Right, but life is really hard. It's really freaking hard, but we still, we can do hard things.
Speaker 2:Oh, a hundred percent. Oh, my goodness, this has been a great conversation, so I'm going to bring you around Third Bay sliding into home.
Speaker 2:Okay, let's do it Are you ready for the big grand finale question? I'm ready, Okay. So it's clear to me and folks out there. If you didn't get it, maybe you just need to go listen to the whole episode again. But it is clear to me that you give a damn about people. You care about the human experience in the workplace. You've made a gigantic shift in your career so that you can touch and impact as many lives as you possibly can, and so that's what makes me excited about your answer to this question. So the question is this what is the promise you are intended to be?
Speaker 1:The promise I am intended to be Now. Let me just ask you this is not a trick question for me to remember what you said when you summarized, not at all Okay.
Speaker 1:So the promise that I intend to be is I. Right now there is a count for the number of suicides that are related to the workplace environment. It is a messy way to count. Life is messy, Metrics are messy. There is no perfect metric right. I would argue that this number that I'll share is low, but I think there's a lot of reasons why. Again, measurement, sadly it's all messy, but in my opinion, one suicide that is related to work environments is too many. So the number count as of 2021, because it's always behind is 269. And so my whole goal in life, before I leave this world, is to I want to see that go to zero. There should be nothing, from a suicide standpoint, that is associated to the workplace period Period. That's it.
Speaker 2:Wow, amazing. So L&M family members out there want to support you in that. What's the best way for them to help support that dream, that promise that you just shared?
Speaker 1:If there is an association that they're connected to, that they think I have an amazing message that is around this work that we need to do in the workplace. If they're connected to an association and they're looking for a speaker, someone to just help them understand what it is that we need to do, I'm their person. Reach out. They can find me on LinkedIn. I have my website, which is my name, colleen Seringer, so that's my ask If there's anybody that you think you want to deliver this message to reach out, I have a 10 minute clip that I can share. That's a nice summary of what it sounds like on stage and, yeah, that's how I would answer that.
Speaker 2:Beautiful. We'll make sure we have those links in the show notes so that folks can help you, and I love it for a lot of different reasons and I'm grateful that you were generous with your time today. Did you have fun?
Speaker 1:Oh my gosh, are you kidding me? I feel like we could talk for another hour. This is so fun.