Learnings and Missteps
The Learnings and Missteps Podcast is about unconventional roads to success and the life lessons learned along the way.
You will find a library of interviews packed with actionable take aways that you can apply as you progress on your career path.
Through these interviews you will learn about the buttons you can push to be a better leader, launch a business, and build your influence.
Find yourself in their stories and know that your path is still ahead of you.
Learnings and Missteps
Why Businesses Fail at Training: A Deep Dive with Dr. Carrie Graham
Dr. Carrie Graham brings over 25 years of expertise in adult workplace learning to this eye-opening conversation about why most corporate training fails to deliver meaningful results. With refreshing candor and profound insights, she challenges conventional approaches that prioritize content over people.
"If you're not thinking about the people, what the hell are you doing?" This powerful question cuts to the heart of where training programs go wrong. Graham explains that organizations repeatedly miss the mark by creating content-heavy, performative training that doesn't acknowledge who their workforce actually is as learners. She shares a personal awakening when her own training wasn't achieving results, and instead of blaming participants, she asked why – discovering they lacked time, resources, and sometimes even basic skills needed to implement what she was teaching.
The discussion ventures into how organizations can meaningfully measure training ROI by starting with alignment between training approaches and company vision. Dr Graham emphasizes the critical importance of actually using collected feedback rather than letting it gather dust – a common failure that signals to employees that everything is merely performative. Through compelling stories, including Jesse's brilliant demonstration teaching executives bachata dance steps as a metaphor for unrealistic training expectations, the conversation illuminates how we must rethink support systems after initial training.
Most powerfully, Carrie reveals how her own professional journey evolved through recognizing approximately 4-5 year growth cycles, where boredom signals evolution rather than failure. Her advice on "sitting in the hard thing to understand the hard thing" offers wisdom for both individual growth and organizational transformation. The conversation culminates in a deeply moving reflection on her purpose: being a light for others in both personal and professional contexts.
Ready to transform how your organization approaches learning? Connect with Dr. Graham at http://www.drcarriegraham.com/ and download her free training assessment tool to start identifying where your current approaches might be missing the mark.
https://www.linkedin.com/in/drcarriegraham
Make yourself a priority and get more done: https://www.depthbuilder.com/do-the-damn-thing
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https://www.depthbuilder.com/books
He got to go and this job got to go. Let me say this why would you invite chaos? Why would you invite additional pain? Why would you invite burnout to sit at your table?
Speaker 2:If you're not thinking about the people, what the hell are you doing?
Speaker 1:You have to sit in the hard thing to understand the hard thing. When you are obesely, overweight and you're trying to lose weight, you got to take all the clothes off and look at it from all angles.
Speaker 2:What is going on? Lnm family Coming back at you with another amazing guest, super duper accomplished and I hinted at this before I hit record. It's like folks if you want to grow like massively and connect with super amazing people, start a podcast. It's a good excuse for a goofball like me to have the opportunity to speak to super, super accomplished folks. You're going to be meeting Dr Keri Graham.
Speaker 2:She's got over 25 years of training experience and no, we're not talking about squats and burpees, we're talking about like real professional stuff. She's got a PhD in adult and workplace learning, which is a space that I play around in, but I'm sure I'm going to learn some things to level up my game because I'm just figuring it out as I go. And here's the cool thing she schools businesses on training strategies that solve training program missteps and full disclosure. I am probably, or have been, one of those training missteps. So we're going to get some goods on the training and all the other stuff. And if this is your first time here, you're listening to the Learnings and Missteps podcast, where you get to see how real people just like you are sharing their gifts and talents to leave this world better than they found it. I'm Jesse, your selfish servant, and we about to get to know Dr Keri. Dr Keri, how are you?
Speaker 1:What's up, jesse? I am so honored to be here with you and with your audience. I love all of it. I am here for all of it and it's one thing to share like, oh, look at me, look at the professional things I've done. I've made so many missteps and I'm here to share them, like I'm just ready, let me free myself of my missteps.
Speaker 2:Oh, let's do it. I will absolve you of all of them. And you know, here's a truth, or maybe an observation from a personal observation. I mean, you're a doctor, right, your PhD is not. It's not a small thing. I know because I've shared a lot of space with another amazing, accomplished woman who was working on her EDD, and that is like life consuming work just to get to that point. Of course, sacrifice, commitment, all the things. But the interesting thing is in my head, I believe that folks with PhDs and advanced degrees are maybe come from a greater than now energy, but so far, the ones that I know personally absolutely not Super cool down people ready just to share and have some communication about how to make things better, and so I applaud you for the humility and just being real. That's what it's about. And what do you think? What do you say? We start off with a super simple question I love it.
Speaker 1:I love it, love it all right here it is how does one measure the roi of training? Good lord, good lord. Okay, I need you to repeat the question. Yeah, that came out of nowhere huh, I thought you were going to say what's your favorite food. Okay, one more time Say it again.
Speaker 2:So I like to start with the heavy one and then we'll have fun after that. I've been in training for a long time no official. Well, I do have a little bit of education on, like how to do it specifically for adult learners. Yeah, and I have a lot of friends in this a little bit of education on, like how to do it specifically for adult learners and I have a lot of friends in the space. And the thing that's, I would say, hardest or maybe that could help folks that are in that space is the question of return on investment, because we know how impactful training and development is. But connecting it to the actual KPIs that the organization is tracking seems to be the nut. If people could crack that, they would overcome a lot of resistance.
Speaker 2:That's my assumption, and so that's where the question comes from. Do you have any cheat codes or advice for folks on how to connect the impact of the training to the KPIs of the business?
Speaker 1:It is a fair question and you're right, it is the one that everyone wants the answer to and I believe the answer exists. I do, I do and here, yeah, here's what it is. It's not a one size fits all answer, and what is the answer for one organization may not be the answer for another organization. So that's the first thing, right, like, we got to all stop looking for the quick fix and thinking, well, it worked for so-and-so, it worked for so-and-so, we'll just do the same thing. Teams don't even do that, right, they don't run the exact same plays, they work with what they got. So that's the first thing. The second thing I encourage people to look at what they're training for and match it to who they're training, because oftentimes people want to get from the oh, we're training for this objective to meet the KPI and that's. They just keep going from one, from a, expecting to go from A to C, but they're being the value in B and when.
Speaker 1:If you continue to keep missing out on the people, right, like, you build a training but it's not for the people, it's for the to meet the KPI You're never going to get a return on your investment. That's pretty basic. If you want a true return on your investment. You have to stop looking outside of your organization, you have to look within and you must acknowledge. Who are these people not? Oh, they're middle managers. Oh, they're only Gen Z. Oh, they are. Who are they as people and who are they as learners? Why? I'm going to climb up on my high horse right now.
Speaker 2:Why in the world?
Speaker 1:why in the world would you create a training that is content heavy, content heavy. And it has to be, because that's the nature of your business, your work, and you're presenting it in a couple hours, Just showing it. But you expect your people. You might have some new individuals, new to the organization, some people who are in job like role transition within the organization, some people who are in job like role transition within your organization, but yet you expect them to comprehend all of this information and then make sense of it on their own and apply it so you can meet your KPI. That just doesn't make good sense. It's not logical. It is not logical. It is not logical, Jesse.
Speaker 2:I just have to say Dr Kerry, I'm going to tell you like you're speaking to my soul. You can see me dancing and getting excited over here, right? Because am I guilty of drowning people with every damn miscellaneous piece of detail information that they might need, just in case? Absolutely Like the people that went through the first training I put together, I feel bad for them. And then the connection. I want to share two confessions with you so you can help folks understand like, yeah, you see that out there, maybe I'm just some psychopath that does it really wrong.
Speaker 2:So first situation, early, early on, when I first got into like training and it was not a formal thing, like I was showing my friends how I did things at the bar or at a barbecue after hours, hanging out, right, it wasn't like official training, but I was trying to teach them. Then it became my job. So I put a little training program together, training program together, and the words that I used was saying you need to do this so that my job is easier. I wasn't saying that precisely, but that was the message you need to do this to comply with our business objectives. And so I remember one friend of mine is like hey, man, like this is good stuff, but it's like it's only for you. What do you mean? It's for you guys, and so is that kind of an example of the bee hitting the bee.
Speaker 1:Let's knock it in. So here's a story, a very short story, that really pulled the veil for me.
Speaker 2:So at some point in my career I but before that we want to do the L&M. Family member shout out, and this one goes to Jennifer Lacey, and y'all, if you know me, know she didn't pay me. She actually gave me this super awesome thought. And so Jennifer says when I signed up to the Do the Damn Thing time management workshop, facilitated by me, jesse, I thought I would get a couple of cheat codes to sprinkle into my planning. I had no idea he would cause a major shift in my thinking around how I approach my goals. So, jennifer, sister, I appreciate you, girl, thank you for going out there and sharing that note with me. So when you send me a note, make a comment on one of my posts. It doesn't have to be good, it could be anything. If it stinks, let me know what stinks. That gives me the opportunity to celebrate you in the future. So share with your people. Leave some stars, leave some comments, because I need the attention. Leave some stars, leave some comments because I need the attention.
Speaker 1:At some point in my career I was a state employee. Yes, so everyone picture it right.
Speaker 1:Yeah 2000, whatever. So I was a state employee and as a state employee I am a rule follower, and I attended a sexual harassment training along with two to 300 of my colleagues my fellow state employee colleagues and it was clear we were all in an auditorium. It was clear that the institution invested some money to bring in a speaker. Well, I'm looking around. I was by myself, but I was looking around and people are asleep. This was when Candy Crush was a thing. They're on their cell phones playing games, they're having side conversations right, and I want your listeners to imagine you've been in that situation. But here's the thing At the same time, that organization was in public litigation around sexual harassment.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 1:Now you tell me you corralled all the people, so that's an expense. Right, we're going to talk about ROI. You've taken people from their job, so that is an expense. You've paid to have a speaker on a topic that clearly you're presenting on because something else has happened. That's an expense. That's an expense.
Speaker 1:But you are in public litigation for a problem that you're attempting to solve right now it's not making sense, as the young people say, make it make sense for me, so it's. It is another example of creating a training that is performative. A training that is performative it's not addressing the issue in any shape or form and you are still not meeting your KPI and you're not getting a return on investment. So that's just a story that I often share. I don't name names to protect others, but I have also made mistakes.
Speaker 1:When I got into this, my career started in health care, as a not certified athletic trainer, so I worked clinically, but then, when I left that, I entered education. Oh, it's a no wonder those students graduated those undergrads. Let me tell you, jesse, like shame on me, I'm embarrassed, right, like even moment I'm embarrassed. But it's okay that people make mistakes like that. That is the part of it, right, it's okay to make mistakes. The key is you learn from the mistake. Don't be like that organization continuing to do the same thing over and over again oh, it's, you said, perfect word.
Speaker 2:It's performative, it's about optics. It's so that we can say we did and mitigate our liability for something that we're reacting to yes, and it's you're wasting time interacting to yes, and it's you're wasting time Organizationally. Now, personally, I think the equivalent of that is I read 52 books in a year. Okay, so you read a book a week and what the hell did you do with the information? What was the purpose? What was the through line of all the content that you were consuming? And we do these things. For me, it's about optics, it's about vanity, it's about being able to say look what I did, rather than this is what I contributed. And I think, and we're going to get to this, but I think that totally ties to mission and values and this sort of really strategic thinking that couples with the training. But before we get there, I've done this and I want to share this because it's helped me help executives understand the fun that they bring to the table with their unrealistic expectations.
Speaker 2:So I was presenting to a group of vice presidents from the central region and I had my space on the agenda. What was buzzing around, and this was back when I had a real job. This was years ago. I don't have a real job now. And so the buzz was man, and it was huge. It was this training the people that went to it. They called it the brainwash thing. It got people excited, it was good stuff, but it was a whole week, right, it was a whole week of super, super intense all day training. It was awesome for me, maybe not for everybody.
Speaker 2:Anyways, the buzz was Jesse, we're sending these people to this training, we're taking them offline to go to the thing. It's a whole week and they're not experts at it. It's still wonky and clunky and right Like. They still like what the hell is the point of this training if they're not? That's OK, I hear you, I hear you. So what I did on my little report out piece on the agenda is OK, everybody stand up, I'm going to teach you the basic bachata steps. So if you're, I'm into Latin dancing right, and bachata is easy One, two, three, yep, one, two, three, left right. One, two, three. One, two, three, it's easy. So I walk them through the base and they're like what in the world is this fool doing, come on. So they got up and they did it, and and that's okay, we're gonna play some music.
Speaker 2:All right, let's do it to the beach. It was less than five minutes, all right. Now I did my my report out and uh, and then at the end, it's okay, so I've picked one. I said executive number one please run us through summary, a review of what you were trained on before we did. Before I did my report out and and he's like bro, I don't I remember one, two, three, but I don't. Like I was like, oh, so you're not ready to be an expert and train people? Well, no, it's okay. Executive number two how about you? I saw you, you were in the rhythm, like you got it. She said, jess, like I'm not ready to teach Like I would practice alone. I said, okay, ready to teach like I would practice alone. I said, okay, this is exactly the same situation that you're imposing on people after going to training and expecting them to be expert level teachers of it. What do you think about that?
Speaker 1:Say, it again. Say it again For the people in the back, jesse. Say it again.
Speaker 2:Say it again, so you can guess I wasn't very popular after that, but I made some progress with some of them. Okay, we understand what you're saying. How do we bridge that gap? I'm like that's the question, here's the idea, here's the support, the follow-up support to like the intensive now they have some context, some some vocabulary, some awareness, but we need some follow-up support on actual deployment and doing and what to expect and so forth. Absolutely yeah.
Speaker 1:You know what, jesse? You got it, whatever.
Speaker 2:You don't need it, you got it.
Speaker 1:Eat whatever. You don't need it. You got it Honestly and that's what I tell people. It's not about. I mean it is, but it's not really. The focus shouldn't be on the content. The content, that's not it. Where people get it wrong is they don't focus on the people. That's the first thing. Even if they focus on the people and they got the content, it often stops there, to your point. It stops right there. What they don't do is follow it through and work on confidence, competence, application. Once you can move people through to that point exactly what you were saying you got to get them to where they're confident and competent to do the thing. That's it. But if we take it at a high level, jesse, that's all about vision and strategy and that's not where people want to sit right now. People want to go and do those things, but they don't want to take time and sit in a conference room and say, okay, just, fellow decision makers, we need a strategy around this.
Speaker 2:Okay, so I know that's a super deep subject and we already poked at it twice, but for the L&M family members out there, what's the starter kit? What do you need to be not doing? How do people need to be thinking about this session, this strategy session around? What's the strategy? What's the alignment with the business and the intended or targeted outcome of training and development? You got any easy pointers that you see folks miss or overlook, take for granted all the time.
Speaker 1:Okay, I do, but before I get there, jesse, you have an invitation to my dinner table. My husband and I would love to have you for dinner. I'm just going to say it because the conversation Okay, I love food.
Speaker 1:I love food. Okay, so, and the reason I extend the invitation is because you want to get deep and you want to have the deep conversations and I love it. So my recommendation for leaders who are saying, okay, let's do this strategy, here's some things to think about. Think about your organizational vision and mission. That's the first thing. What does it say? If, at any point, you have a point about the people in it, that vision needs to be in your strategy. That vision needs to be a part of your training as well. If in your vision, it says community, the stories around community training that is built on community learning and learning, hoops and social learning, communities of practice, that needs to be in it. So and I could go on and on but I would say the first thing to start thinking about is what does our vision, our corporate organizational vision, say? What does it say and is it reflected in our training as a whole and in our existing strategy, if you have one? That's the first thing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's the first thing.
Speaker 2:It's gigantic and the reason I say it's gigantic for two reasons. And like anybody outside of the construction industry, I'm not talking about you because that's not for two reasons. And like anybody outside of the construction industry, I'm not talking about you because that's not where I swim. But in the construction industry I know tons of organizations that either don't have a clear vision, mission, values, which that's not bad, because my money says the majority of businesses out there don't. But hey, you're making it right. Don't let any fool start a business. I'm proof of that.
Speaker 1:If you want to have.
Speaker 2:I guess what I'm hearing is when you want to amplify the investment of training and development, where to start is vision, mission values.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and that's it, and it's not creating them. So I would hope you already got it. I would hope so, so let's assume you have them. If you're thinking about where do we start with our strategy, this is really high level, really high level. It should be. Well, what does it say? It's our guiding principle and it doesn't mean that it solely guides our revenue.
Speaker 1:It should be. Well, what does it say? It's our guiding principle and it doesn't mean that it solely guides our revenue. It should guide everything that leads to the revenue. So I would look at that and because it should be reflected in your strategy and in your training in general. The other thing that I have this is the first conversation I have with my clients time and time again is you need to get a crystal clear understanding of who your workforce is. Who are they as people? You cannot keep building a training or establishing quote unquote pipeline, leadership pipelines and leadership mentoring programs when you don't understand who these people are, what their needs are not what your needs are, but what are their needs. What your needs are, but what are their needs. So I would say, if you're thinking about strategy, like high level strategy, from the time someone signs the agreement of working for you, the ink signs all the way through exiting you want to think about your vision and mission and who are the people, who are they as learners? You have to.
Speaker 2:Powerful. If you're not thinking about the people, what the hell are you doing? That's it. Find some YouTube links and let them watch videos.
Speaker 1:That's it. So I was at a breakfast this morning and a guy who is the president of the closest hospital to me was also at that meeting. Oddly enough, we went to undergrad together. Oddly enough, we were just chatting, and I asked him. I said what's your approach to supporting and returning your team? And he was like well, I've done this for our hospital workers and this. And I said, right there, I don't need to talk to you as a potential client, because you view and understand that your workforce as your number one resource, your number one asset, keep on.
Speaker 1:And I've said this before keep treating people nasty and not supporting them and not uplifting and nurturing them, you will continue to have a turnover issue. You will continue to have a problem.
Speaker 2:Oh, I love it. So your people are not the problem, they're the answer. Yes, and when you start behaving that way, the thing the tide will turn, it will, it will.
Speaker 1:It will. I've seen it time and time again, and so here's here's an example, and it's a mistake that I made and I learned from it and I'm happy to share it. So I was doing a very long series of trainings with a group of individuals, and every time I would go to meet with them, they were not prepared in the way that I expected.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 1:And I was so frustrated and so at the beginning, right like I would just keep pushing and it wasn't happening. So one day I went to them and I said I don't understand, why is it that you are not prepared when we meet every?
Speaker 1:time we meet, and so I need you to help me understand. I had drew a lot of assumptions about this group of people, a lot of assumptions. What they told me was I have this obligation outside of this workshop or this series and these other obligations, and it is keep. I don't have the time in the day to do what you're asking. A number of them said that. A few others said I don't know how to do what you're asking me to do, just period. Don't know how to do what you're asking me to do, just period. I don't know how. And you keep asking me to do it and I want to do it, but I just don't know how. Fair enough. Someone else, a couple other people, said I don't have access to those resources and, jesse, when I tell you, I was humbled in that moment.
Speaker 2:Oh, I bet.
Speaker 1:I just stood there. There was no blame, like no self them. No one was blaming. We were having just a candid conversation about what's the problem? Why is it this working? Us working out and given what they were all saying, and then one person would say something and someone else would agree oh yeah, I'm struggling in that way too.
Speaker 1:I realized, damn, carrie, like you got it all wrong. You made a bunch of assumptions. You assume that people have the resources, you assume that they had the time, you assume that they had the time, you assume that they had the interest, and so you were pushing based on assumptions as opposed to truly understanding who they are and what their needs are. So that totally changed it for me and I became a better educator. I became a better facilitator. Quite honestly, I became a better person and I have instituted that. I've encouraged people as a consultant. I've said you have to make it about them, it's not about you. Who are they? And time again, my clients always say, carrie, I never thought of that. And when we're done, they're like man, that was it right there, that was it. Thank you for sharing that, but it came out of my mistake.
Speaker 2:Yes, oh, I love that and that's the value. Right Of the missteps, yeah, when we pay attention to them. Now, what I want to point out that you did that seems duh, but no, it's not, because we rarely do it. You said, okay, the outcome that I want is not happening. I keep telling them what to do and I keep getting the same outcome. So the system was designed perfectly to produce the outcome you were having. Telling them to change didn't impact the outcome. So you said let me find out why, let me ask and, more importantly, listen yes, why. What's struggling, what is the barrier and contributing to the break in the system?
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And I'm with you. I've been there. We're like man, I suck. I can't believe I've been berating y'all this whole time. I should like just as dumb. I'm not saying you, I'm saying me.
Speaker 1:No, I was saying the same thing. When I got home that day, I was like you idiot, come on, do better, do better. And now I can say I do better and it's because of that, and something you said right. You said that I listened. I did. However, jesse, let's talk about your listeners. How many of you collect surveys? How many of you did assessments? And you're sitting on all this data and that's where it stops. You're sitting on the data.
Speaker 1:You are using the data to make informed decisions again about the strategy. Don't make these decisions in reaction to well, how is it going to get us to the KPI? If you took the time to survey your workforce, you need to sit down with the data let it sink in. Check your pride at the door because it's going to hurt. Make it make sense and then make decisions based on what you see.
Speaker 2:Oh, my goodness, I love it, and you're right. So many people out there organizations and even individuals gather all kinds of survey data and don't do squat. And for me I'm like wait a minute, what am I filling this out for? What are we going to do with it? And for me I'm like wait a minute, what am I filling this out for? What are we going to do with it? What do you mean?
Speaker 1:I was like well, I know you want me to fill out the survey, but what are you going to do with it?
Speaker 2:I don't care, I'm not worried about somebody judging me, but are you going to use it? And if you can answer, yeah, we're going to use it for X, y, z. Okay, cool, I'll fill it out If you say, well, it's because they told us we got to do it. Guess what. I ain't filling it out because you're just wasting my time, absolutely and you're not going to do anything. And you keep repeating that. And what are you signaling to your people? That everything is performative, everything is weak sauce and they get further and further disengaged. Oh my God, all right, dr Kerry. So, folks, if you can't tell she got some game and so shy, but I do remember them and I wanted to go.
Speaker 1:And my mother even a couple of times was like don't you want to go, I'll pay for it. I was too shy.
Speaker 2:I was like okay, so, and I love that, and can you guess, I was shy too. I was in the middle of the floor, I had my dance routine with my buddies and we turned it up. So, but back then, the shy days, right, when people were out there messing around, were you committed fully? Was it super clear to you that you were going to be a PhD in organizational development, training, all the magical things you're doing now?
Speaker 1:No, organizational development, training, all the magical things you're doing now. No, where I am today was never early on part of my goal. It is truly divinely ordained. I firmly believe that. So short story. As a really shy kid, I wanted to be an attorney. I did, I wanted to be a lawyer. But my best friend at the time said, carrie, you'll never be a good lawyer because you don't like to argue.
Speaker 1:She was right and so I was like, yeah, that's not for me, that's not for me. But so I ended up going to undergrad. I have a degree in sport, a bachelor's degree in sports medicine. I wanted to be the athletic trainer for the Georgetown Hoyas men's basketball team and work for Thompson in the day. That was what I wanted. I didn't work for Georgetown. I did have a chance to meet John Thompson Sr, but I was on that path and my transition from Division One Athletics to the classroom. That's not something that I have wanted and it was an opportunity and I said, yes, ok, getting the PhD actually was out of frustration.
Speaker 1:Really it really was, because I was at this sexual harassment training as a health care provider, I had to go to conferences every year to maintain my board certification and what I found was, while I was growing, not only in my skillset but in my goals, my personal goals, career goals the conferences weren't meeting me in that regard. And because of that right, I was spending money, I was using my vacation time. I was growing more and more frustrated and I was getting closer to like late thirties, forties, like why is this the case? I don't. I'm frustrated. I'm frustrated. And it was a growing conversation among my colleagues. They were feeling the same way and that's when the opportunity presented that, okay, I think I might need to pursue some other coursework or degree. And that's how this came around.
Speaker 1:The very first course that I took was workplace learning and I honestly, jesse, I felt like I was in therapy every Tuesday of the week.
Speaker 1:I kept saying to myself yes, everything we were reading about projects. I was like this is me, this is me, this is my experience. And that's what really helped me realize we have a problem, and it's not just in this country, it's pervasive worldwide. And I've listened to the call, or I've answered the call that God has laid out before me, of Carrie, you have an opportunity. I've prepared you with skills and experiences and a growing passion to support businesses so that their people are filled up and not depleted. People are filled up and not depleted. I've been the employee who was like why am I at this training, why am I here and angry? And then I went home and I was angry and frustrated. I do my work for them. I do my work for the person so that they can go home to their loved ones and be full and present, so that they can participate in their community and be excited and that when they are alone they don't feel weighed down.
Speaker 1:They actually feel inspired. Weighed down, they actually feel inspired. That's all I want. When the good Lord calls me home and I take my last breath and I have to give an account for my life, I want to say God, Father, I used everything you gave me to make the lives better of others. That's all I'll be able to say. That is all I want to be able to say.
Speaker 2:Amazing, oh, my goodness. Okay, this is going to be a weird question, and also I just want to recognize and folks if you didn't catch the theme there is, what I heard is what gives you fulfillment is serving others, improving the experience of other human beings, which I think is a super. It's the keystone. It doesn't have to be training and organizational transformation, it just has to be something that contributes to the life of others. To have the fulfillment and being able to show up at the end and say I did it, you gave it to me and I did it. Now what's next? So I love that.
Speaker 2:Now you mentioned you're in your mind you were going to be an attorney, and then your friends say wait a minute, maybe not. And so you went down a path and then you saw another path and then maybe kept going down deeper down that path. So here's the weird question Do you feel like you have a cycle of time in which you need something heavier to chew on, or a new mission, a new phase of growth to explore? And if you do, what's that duration? I'll give you an example Back in the day before I became a house cat, I could see that every three to five years. I needed like I got promotions, I take on a new big giant challenge and then I'd start getting bored and I'd start causing problems and getting in trouble. And then I got a new challenge and it was like a three to five year cycle. It sped up since then. So I'm wondering do you see a similar pattern in on your path?
Speaker 1:looking back, that is a great question. I don't think it's an odd one at all and it was something that I realized, maybe 15 years ago is that it is in fact I'm on, I am on, like you a three to five year, more like a four to five year path or cycle where I realized, ah, I'm bored and what it is. I realize, oh, I'm bored and what it is. I want to be very clear, because I've worked with young people and I've seen this happen time and again. I want to be clear. That is not a bad thing and, quite frankly, you would hope that that occurs. And the reason I say that is every day that passes, we all continue to evolve and get older and if you are not growing in some capacity, something's wrong.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Something is wrong and when I realized that was, I was working with college students, and at first in Division One athletics. It's great. The thing that evolves is the sports world Right.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:But when, and so it wasn't really an issue. But when I got in the classroom I remember very distinctly I got to a point where I said, wow, they keep being 18, but I keep getting older, and that for me it was mind blowing because I'm like why is it getting harder? They're still 18, right, yeah, they're still eight. And I kept telling myself they're still getting 18. Why is it harder? Why is it harder? And what I wasn't realizing is, yes, they are 18, but I am 30, 35, 40, 45, while they're still 18.
Speaker 1:So I use that as an example, that as we age, as we have more life experience, as we have more struggles and successes in life. I would hope that people want a change and the change feeds different parts of their lives. I again, I'll be very honest with you, jesse I have. I believe in Jesus Christ.
Speaker 1:My faith has always been a very private part of my life and, given where I worked separation of church and state, and that's just how I lived.
Speaker 1:As I've gotten older and had various life experiences, the value of my faith coming to the forefront has become more important to me. So I've evolved very privately and very intimately, but that has impacted my work. And so to your original question my work has evolved and me wanting to solve like digging in hardcore and deep and not taking the easy path and working with people on their strategies is because my faith has evolved and it's pushing me. It's pushing me to say, carrie, be a better person for others, show up stronger and harder for others, be courageous for others. Show up stronger and harder for others. Be courageous for others. Do the thing that's uncomfortable for you, but it's going to help and support others. So, yes, I do. Every so often I get bored, and it's not simply eh, I've done that before I don't want to. It's for me. It's not about that. It is I am growing and evolving and I'm honoring that evolution.
Speaker 2:Ultimately, oh, that's beautifully said. You're growing into your confidence, you're evolving into it and you're honoring it because, yes, that's the ultimate. And I also, like me personally I recognize there was a hell. That was 20 years of my life where I was like playing the same year over and over and over again, and that was largely because of the life that I had designed Right. I had enormous debt, I had all these other things that, like, I didn't have space to like wander and roam and explore. I just had to go make that money to pay the bill so they wouldn't repo the truck. Like for real, real life, and I'm sharing that.
Speaker 2:Folks, if you're not in this like rapid cycle, that's okay, yeah, yeah. But when you are, when you start seeing it and sensing it to use your word, honor it, because it is the calling, it is the like in my brain, I think of those little signals that say hey, jess, look at this, pay attention to this, there's this thing you should explore. That's the whispers, right? The whispers are telling me hey, there's something greater out there. You just got to figure out how to be better to do it. Now, on the other side of the coin, I know several people that have grand ideas. They start down the path and there's always friction. Right, because we know change. There's friction with change, regardless of whether it's positive, requested or imposed. It's always pain. So they start down this path thinking, hey, I see another vision, I'm evolving. And then, six months later, man, that was too hard. They pick up another path. What guidance would you offer somebody that's not prepared to apply the discipline and sacrifice to overcome the friction?
Speaker 1:Man, that's good, good one. I would say a couple of things, and the first that comes to mind is that did it for me early on in my life is what's the alternative for me early on in my life is what's the alternative? And it's I'm uncomfortable just to hear myself say it Honestly. I think I'm getting nauseous thinking about it. Right, I really am like what's the alternative? So when I was an undergrad, I was in this athletic training program and it got really. It was hard. It was a hard year for a lot of reasons and I was like I don't want to do this anymore. And all of my friends were older, so they were seniors, and I remember distinctly it was the day, the last day, to change your major change your course. So the clock is ticking.
Speaker 2:And I'm like I don't want to do this.
Speaker 1:And they kept saying okay, carrie, if you don't want to do it, that's fine, but what will you do? And I couldn't answer it. I was like I don't know what was the alternative. I didn't have one and so I put I was like this is it? And so I kept pushing when I had to take I don't think I've ever publicly said this, I know I haven't publicly said this and a lot of people oh my God, exclusive. I don't want to say it, but I'm going to. Oh my God, exclusive. I don't want to say it, but I'm going to. So I actually. So I was board certified.
Speaker 1:I didn't pass the first time, and passing the first time was a huge deal. I didn't pass it and I remember thinking what are you going to do, carrie? What are you going to do? And that's what are you going to do, carrie, what are you going to do? What are you going to do? Yeah, yeah, and I didn't have any other choice. There was an alternative. As Kevin Hart would say, all my eggs were in this basket. That has followed me over the years is what's going to? What's the alternative, carrie? What are you going to do? You've invested and people say. Coming from the world of athletics, people say, oh, quitting is bad. No, sometimes I was about to swear, jesse Sometimes quitting is the right decision, depending on what the situation is. I would say for people who are at that place where they don't know how to handle the friction, it's understanding what your alternative is.
Speaker 1:There is a consequence and a benefit to all of it, and you have to understand both to make the right decision. There are days for me as a consultant when it's not. It's not gravy. I'm going to be honest. Right, like it's not gravy. I just want to be like screw all of this, lord, give me something else. I'm not the one for this.
Speaker 1:This ain't easy, like they said. I know you don't make mistakes, but I don't know if I'm the right one for this. This ain't easy, like they said it was. I know you don't make mistakes, but I don't know if I'm the right one. I don't know. But I always take time alone and sit with it. Sit with the frustration, sit with not having confidence, the doubt. Sit with all frustration, sit with not having confidence, the doubt. Sit with all of it, acknowledge it for what it is and then move forward. And for me, when I sit in it in the muck and mess of it, for people who've ever been deep in debt, you can't not look at the numbers and think you're going to get out of it. You got to sit in it.
Speaker 1:When you are obesely overweight and you're trying to lose weight. You got to take all the clothes off and look at it from all angles. You have to sit in the hard thing to understand the hard thing. And when you understand the hard thing, you can change the hard thing or you can move forward through the hard thing. Yes, and businesses leaders, you have to do the same thing. You have to sit in the muck and the mire and the hardness of it. You have to. You have to sit in the muck and the mire and the hardness of it. You have to. You have to.
Speaker 2:Beautiful, excellent, profound advice, introspection. And first, thank you for your vulnerability and sharing that thing. Like I'm excited I got a little special treat out of this Honestly.
Speaker 1:I don't think my husband knows I got a little special treat out of this, honestly.
Speaker 2:I don't think my husband knows it, jesse, tell you that I think I'm going to have to go tell him.
Speaker 1:I got to go tell him. I don't think he knows.
Speaker 2:Well, and I love that you pointed out like Because and I'm not going to do a good job of this, but I am, if you can't tell I'm like super intense and quitting is not an idea I subscribe to or advocate for, but I know there is value in quitting and so, just for clarity, folks, I'm not saying don't quit and keep doing it, because I've tried that, I've tried it in relationships, I've tried it. Tried that. I've tried it in relationships, I've tried it in jobs, I've tried it in hobbies.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:And, like the common thread is because I'm obsessive, I end up losing joy. Yes, I end up underserving the person in front of me because I'm not going to quit. I'm going to figure it out, I'm going to do this thing. And the pattern revealed itself, like I said, in hobbies, in relationships, in jobs and assignments, it was the same thing I got. So because I wasn't going to quit. I can't quit, I'm not going to quit. What are they going to say about me if I quit? I'm not a quitter. Well, and then I'm just like abusing myself.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Eventually I figured out a fool. Like it's stealing joy from you. It's taking so much energy for you to get good at the thing that you're neglecting everybody and everything else. Yes, time to quit.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Now, on the other end of it, here's something I do.
Speaker 2:Tell me what you think about it.
Speaker 2:When I decide to start a new and this is this is real new Like, we'll say, the last four or five years of my life, like when I started this podcast, I didn't know what I was doing and I also don't want to start something and not at least get the lesson which you said right. What is the lesson in this thing? It may not be your career still not making money off this thing, but I know what the lesson is. Right, I can connect with amazing people, and so what I did and this is what I do now, even with new ideas, it's going to be six months or one year. Am I willing and prepared to do the work for six months or a year with absolutely no return on investment, no recognition, no likes, no shares, no comments? If the answer is yes, then I'm going to do it. If the answer is, I'm not sure why even start, right, but six months to anything less than six months, and I use the six month time block for things that I'm going to be paying money on.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Like a year. If it's just my time, it's just my time. But if it's cash girl, like I don't like spending money that way. If it's cash girl like I don't like spending money that way. But I got it because I know that the start there's always friction, it's always hard, it's difficult and reflecting back six months to a year is enough time to pull data points and evaluate the signals, to say, okay, this is flatlining, this is declining, this is going up, and then make a decision to add time to that. What do you think about that?
Speaker 1:I think that's fair and I think it's healthy to give yourself six months to a year to experience, to explore, to learn some lessons. And here's the thing about learning lessons that I've always told people learn. That that's not for you, that's a lesson.
Speaker 2:That's it. That's it, yes.
Speaker 1:A hundred percent, and that's a very valuable lesson that you need to have in order to go in the direction or do the thing that's going to feed you. I tried that as well when I started consulting full time. I had another area of work that I was doing and I was like uh-uh, uh-uh, this.
Speaker 2:I did.
Speaker 1:Like you said, the idea is nice and I can serve in that way, but for me the lesson was it's not feeding my soul. Yes so what's the point? So I let that go but.
Speaker 1:I think that's fair because and the reason I say it's fair is because you go into it acknowledging this might be challenging and hard, but I know there's an end point and at the end point or the timeline, so it's at the six month mark or at the year mark that's when you say, yes, let me assess it. I'm going to assess is it good, it good, bad and different. Okay, I got my answer. What do I do now? Yes, and that's the thing. You have to have a point of assessment to determine the next path that's it.
Speaker 2:That's yep. Is there a change in direction? Is there a tweak? Do I get off the pack?
Speaker 1:look, even have you evolved in that time going back to the 18 and gone. Are you evolving? In that time, did your life circumstance change? Fine, and so now it's not possible or it's not feasible, or did things evolve and you're like this is it? I found it yes.
Speaker 2:Clarity oh my God. Well, I just got to say that, dr Carey, you just gave all my exes affirmation when they decided that's not for me when they kicked me down the road. But so thank you for that.
Speaker 1:I'm going to say the same. And to your point about relationships there, no-transcript. Life is so precious when we strip away our titles and the things that we have, and all of it is about experiencing the world around us. It is an opportunity for beauty and it is hard, and so why would we invite and I tell my friends this, why would you invite chaos, why would you invite additional pain, why would you invite burnout to sit at your table? You would, you would not, you would not. So it is your responsibility. We're not having it. We're not having it, and it's hard. Like you talk about the moment of friction, and I think our missteps help us, help reveal if something is in fact the place we need to be or not. And our mistakes, our missteps, are not bad things. They're not. They are simply a part of life that help us gain understanding for this beautiful thing that we call life.
Speaker 2:Oh, that's gotta be a clip. I know it's gonna renee. You need to cut that out. That was awesome, all right. So I have one softball closing question. Okay, but before I get to that, you mentioned that you're consulting. You have your own business. Would you mind letting people know if they don't already love you? Then they could just move on. But the ones that are falling in love with it and say, man, I need to get in contact with Dr Carrie here. How do you serve and how do people get ahold of you?
Speaker 1:Yeah, thank you so much for that opportunity, jesse. So I am committed to serving small and mid-sized businesses that don't have an L&D team but they want to get. They want to serve their workforce well, and so I can help you with your training and development strategy. I can help you with putting together a training program and pipeline that really serves your workforce. So that's the place I sit and that's where I'm committed to working. People can find me at drcarygramcom or on LinkedIn all those things but the thing that I encourage people to think about is I require you to think differently.
Speaker 1:I am not going to say this is a one size fits all, you have to do it. Oh, she has a PhD. She's going to tell me do it this way. We're going to do some deep, intimate work in terms of what data are you sitting on and not using? Why are you not using it? That's a question that we're not going to speak that onto the road, right. But really, looking at, who are your people? Oh, okay, so if these are your workforce, who are they as learners? Oh, you don't know. Why don't you know who they are?
Speaker 1:as entrepreneurs, so anyone that really wants to be right by their workforce from a training perspective and is willing to pull the curtain back and say this is really where we are, we're not proud of it, we're not happy about it. We really don't want the public to know. I'm okay with that and please know that I view that as an invitation into your house. It is intimate and it is private and I honor that, and so I will ask hard questions and push people to do things. But it is all in the spirit of let's make you better so that your people are better, and if they are better, your business is going to be better.
Speaker 2:It's plain and simple. Oh my God, all right, I will absolutely make sure that your links are in the show notes so people can get ahold of you, connect with you, and I like we connected via LinkedIn and I'm telling you like, if you're not sure, just connect with Dr Carrie. On LinkedIn you post right Like perspectives and ideas that, ooh, I could go do that right now. I could go try that right now. I don't need the intimate intervention. Or maybe you're just not ready and you want to test the waters. I know you post stuff that's helpful and applicable to people in business.
Speaker 1:I also want to say one of the things that in this to this, to your point, like people may not be ready and they're wondering. So you've heard like we've had this crazy conversation, but I, on my website, there is, in fact, a free assessment. It's a training and it touches on all the things you and I have been talking about, and so it's an opportunity for people to just look at it and say, oh, okay, we weren't thinking about these things, or we weren't thinking about these things, or we got this part, okay, and so there's six categories of of areas that that really need to be considered when you're working to improve on your training program and that's on my website, so you can just go and download it, and I don't want anything from you for it, except for you to do better oh, I love it.
Speaker 2:All right. So we're absolutely going to make sure the assessment is available and I'm going to be brainstorming on how to blow that up because of the dual benefit right. It'll benefit the individual that's doing the assessment and it'll benefit my new friend, Dr Carrie. It may turn into a need, so let's blow that bad boy up. Okay, Are you ready for the little kindergarten? Simple, easy question.
Speaker 1:Well, for one, I don't trust you on that, but I'm ready. I don't trust you. I don't trust you.
Speaker 2:Good, you already know me, you already know me.
Speaker 1:But I'm ready, I'm ready.
Speaker 2:I love it All right, and again, you've been super gracious with your time, your insight, even the vulnerability of sharing a new, new secret I'm going to. I feel like I need to get tissues for this answer, because I think your answer is going to be profound and impactful. And so here's the question what is the promise you are intended to be?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think we do need some tissue, jesse. I think we do need some tissue, and the reason I say that is because that question is making me look at parts of who I am that I don't often look at and acknowledge when you say the word promise. So when I came into this world, there was a promise on my life, and I think the world, our experiences, our doubt, weaknesses are, doubt, cloud what the promise is, and I have been on a journey to find that and I didn't use the word promise. But now that you say it, that's what I've been looking for and in my own quiet way, the promise that's on my life is to be a light in others and, yeah, I need a tissue.
Speaker 1:I don't think I ever realized that until you asked that question, and so I am so thankful that you asked me that question because I can tell that how my life has evolved, particularly in the last six years, that I've really committed to being a light for other people, in in, in moments that may seem insignificant to me going to get my bring my trash to the curb in the morning and seeing a little girl with a hijab on and she's the only one for me to say to her I love your hijab, it's so beautiful, like you.
Speaker 1:And for her to turn to me and say you know what this is, thank you. I know that I put light into her life in that moment. For me to see an aging woman and to tell her I absolutely love how beautiful your gray hair is. That is why I am here and I think oftentimes I overlook that. I overlook that I look for moments to offer that to other people. But I think I'm realizing that is my purpose and the promise that's on my life that I can offer other people. So thank you so much, jesse, thank you.
Speaker 2:It's amazing, thank you, and I'm getting chills over here and fighting back the tears and folks go forth and do likewise. Right, what you just talked about is simple human stuff helping somebody else understand that you see them.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And it's not a huge investment. It's recognizing something about them and helping them see the greatness that you see. So, wow, thank you. Did you have fun?
Speaker 1:I did have fun. Wow, thank you. Did you have fun? I did have fun, Jesse, but I also to your point that you just made to your listeners. I said something to you before you hit record, but I want to say it publicly. I said thank you for being Jesse Hernandez and for being an incredibly kind, professional man of Latino descent who's taken up space publicly on LinkedIn and in the world.
Speaker 1:That must be acknowledged. I am so incredibly proud to see your face, to hear your voice in all of it, in all of what you bring. It is so important and me making a comment to a child on the way to school, a stranger at the grocery store. They matter to those individuals and my prayer is that it matters to you, that I, in the space that you're holding for me, that I equally acknowledge who you are and what you are doing. It is important. It is so incredibly important and I pray that others acknowledge that as well. Jesse, I'm so proud of you for being here and this is our first time actually meeting face-to-face, but I am just so thankful for you. I'm so thankful for you.
Speaker 2:Oh my goodness, the feeling is mutual, thank you.