Learnings and Missteps
The Learnings and Missteps Podcast is about unconventional roads to success and the life lessons learned along the way.
You will find a library of interviews packed with actionable take aways that you can apply as you progress on your career path.
Through these interviews you will learn about the buttons you can push to be a better leader, launch a business, and build your influence.
Find yourself in their stories and know that your path is still ahead of you.
Learnings and Missteps
Building Bridges, Not Walls: Kimberly Sauceda on Connection and Leadership
What happens when only one side builds a relationship? You end up with a lookout, not a bridge. This profound realization forms the heart of my conversation with Kimberly Sauceda, bestselling author of "Meet Me at the Bridge" and a relationship expert with over 20 years of experience working with organizations like Apple.
Kimberly shares the touching origin story behind her bridge-building philosophy - a spontaneous moment with her teenage son during COVID lockdown that crystallized the truth about mutual relationship investment. "Hi mama, I'm here to build a bridge," he said, mirroring her own approach and revealing the essential nature of two-sided connection.
We explore how leaders unknowingly "pluck the feathers of eagles," transforming potential high-performers into disengaged team members through dismissive behaviors and unclear expectations. As Kimberly wisely notes, "unset expectations are predetermined disappointment." The bridge metaphor extends beyond the workplace into all human connections, offering a framework built on trust, respect, and genuine interest in others.
The conversation takes a fascinating turn when we discuss conflict's crucial role in relationship building. Rather than viewing conflict as something to avoid, Kimberly reframes it as an opportunity to strengthen connections through curiosity and listening. High-trust teams are five times more productive precisely because they can navigate disagreement effectively.
For those working under limiting leadership, Kimberly offers practical strategies: decide who you want to be regardless of circumstances, find alternative sources for validation, and develop a personal "board of directors" for perspective and support. This approach maintains integrity while strategically working toward roles where your contributions are valued.
Ready to transform your professional and personal relationships? Start by asking yourself which bridges you're building and whether you're inviting others to build alongside you. Check out Kimberly's book and leadership programs at fromO2U.com to learn how to move from overwhelmed to unstoppable through the power of connection.
Connect with Kimberly at:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/kimberlysauceda/
Make yourself a priority and get more done: https://www.depthbuilder.com/do-the-damn-thing
Download a PDF copy of Becoming the Promise You are Intended to Be
https://www.depthbuilder.com/books
Hi Mama, I'm here to build a bridge.
Speaker 2:Oh, wow.
Speaker 1:And that was the moment that I realized oh, if it's a bridge, both sides have to build. If you're in one side building. You just have a lookout.
Speaker 2:But I'm surrounded by turkeys and you're not surrounded by turkeys. You just plucked the feathers of all the eagles around you. Turkeys, you just plucked the feathers of all the eagles around you. What is going on? L&m family? I've got a good one and like, of course, I'm getting like a double dose of awesomeness.
Speaker 2:I've been able to have a conversation and I know we're going to have future conversations with our guest today who is an expert in building high performing relationships. She's got over 20 years of experience working with top tier companies like Apple. So like super, super fancy, real, legit, highly accomplished individual who now partners with leaders, teams and organizations to optimize their relationships for unstoppable results. And she's also a best-selling author of Meet Me at the Bridge. So if you're not intimidated, I need to let y'all know out there I'm a little bit intimidated over you, except that she's super awesome. So you're going to get to meet Ms Kimberly Sauceda here in a second, if this is your first time here. This is the Learnings and Missteps podcast, where you get to see how real people just like you are sharing their gifts and talents to leave this world better than they found it. I'm Jesse, your selfish servant, and we about to get to know Miss Kimberly. Miss Kimberly, how are you?
Speaker 1:I'm great, Jesse, and I've been looking forward to this. I'm excited for us to chat today.
Speaker 2:Oh, my goodness, and you got a lot going on. I know you do, and so I'm grateful to you for gifting us with this time. I know that it's going to, if it doesn't at least rev some people's engines, it will at least start a few fires in people to get moving and get going. And so I was looking at the stuff, kind of stalking you a little bit on the socials, and I said, oh, I got a nice question I want to open up with.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:I mentioned in the intro, there's a lot of language about relationships.
Speaker 1:So are we talking about dating? Oh well, here's the funny thing. So no, this is what I've been talking about are work relationships, and so the idea is building a bridge and that both sides have to build the bridge. However, here's the funny thing is I have spoken at dozens of companies and talk now to thousands and thousands of people, and here's what happens afterwards Inevitably, somebody comes up to me and they're like this idea of a bridge, it actually works for all your relationships, because I talk about a foundation of trust, respect and connection, and they're like it works really well with my kids, which is amazing, because that's actually how the whole thing started. And then people also say it works really well with your significant other, too, and I'm like it does. In fact, and you know the other bridge that I'm starting to write about and have been writing about ready it's the bridge you're going to have the longest, so it works in so many different facets, jesse, and I love that people are seeing that and coming to me and saying you need to write another book.
Speaker 2:What about this?
Speaker 1:one and saying how it's transforming their relationship. So I am super grateful and humbled with the reception of all of it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, oh, my goodness. Well, so folks, if you didn't catch it, the stuff when somebody is providing and delivering universal principles, it translates across. Of course I was being goofy. Are we talking about dating? Because the things you nailed it and I especially love little nugget here y'all the idea of this relationship with yourself, and so that's something, a project that Ms Kimberly is tinkering on right now. We're going to have to talk about that in the future. Really put that one on the shelf. But primarily, the book is based on. The bestselling book is based on relationships interdepartmentally, within the professional space, if you will, but those principles are applicable in familial relationships, in romantic relationships and so forth. Did I get that right?
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's absolutely right, absolutely yes, and there wasn't a book that really talked about employee to manager, manager to employee and how both sides really need to work together. That's the kind of the key differentiator. But this book, yes, is absolutely based on that and it can be up and down, right. So how you manage, or also how you manage up.
Speaker 2:Oh man, that's so many people. Rather, I'll say it this way I did not understand the value. First I'll say that I did not understand the value of managing up, and then I didn't understand how to do it effectively understand the value of managing up and then I didn't understand how to do it effectively.
Speaker 1:Jesse, yes, same, and I have. I have a lot of. You'll have clients or other people that'll come to me and say I don't want to play the game, but it's. I feel like there's a different reframe we can have. Instead of the idea of I don't want to play the game, there are certain things that are happening and it is the traction that you get when you have a solid relationship with someone, when you have really good trust. There are tons of studies from Harvard Business Review across the board that have been done about how important trust is. So it's not I don't know. I wouldn't look at it as like a game. You're not trying to manipulate. It's just that relationships are so much better when they're stronger than if they're just like transactional.
Speaker 2:Oh my God, totally yeah, cause transactional is disposable, right? Whatever, I'll just get another one.
Speaker 1:Yes, yes. Now, when I used to say that I don't want to play the game, looking back I can see that what I was yes, yes, I find that either that or I just want to do the work and I want somebody to be able to see the work that I'm doing. But what we don't realize is sometimes your manager has 18 other things that are happening, and so if you tell them the things that you're doing, or the things that your team's doing, you're actually enabling them to be your advocate. Right, yes?
Speaker 2:Yes, yes, yeah, and it's an uncomfortable thing. I know for me personally. A lot of people I know like advocating for yourself is uncomfortable. I know my upbringing was keep your head down, work hard, do the right thing, be polite, play fair and you will get noticed. Yes, that was true at home, not in the workplace.
Speaker 1:Right, yes.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and so I have that framework going into the professional space in construction. I'm a construction guy where it's very competitive and there are some people that are very skilled at advocating for themselves and, even worse, some people that are very skilled at advocating for themselves and, even worse, some people that have made a career of taking credit for other people's work.
Speaker 1:Yes, yes.
Speaker 2:What do you think about that?
Speaker 1:I mean, that is the ultimate and frustrating. When there is somebody that is taking credit for someone else's work, or when there is someone and they like just kind of showed up and were part of the project but they didn't actually do the thing. Or I work with several people in construction and I did a whole leadership program for a construction company, and sometimes you'll have someone and the estimate will be a little bit off, or hey, they meant to do this but they didn't get around to it, and other people come in and pick up the slack, and so when reviews come, they're like well, I did this, but it's inaccurate, right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yep.
Speaker 1:Physically there they just, but they weren't the ones solving the problems, they weren't the ones doing the other things. And so, yeah, advocating for yourself can be uncomfortable, but it's also finding that confidence and telling the story in a way that feels solid for you. So sometimes what I work with people about is what's that mindset shift so it doesn't feel like the salesy?
Speaker 1:kind of person we talk about. Okay, what is it that's holding you back? Who is it that you don't want to be and what's the story you're kind of creating about that, Because I'll bet that you maybe had something where you're like, well, I don't want to be that guy or that person.
Speaker 2:We want to do our L&M shout out, and so this shout out is going to Mr Amut. Mr Amut, you are amazing. We've been able to hang out a few times and you left me this note and I want to make sure and share it. Processes, but what about the human side? That's when I discovered the hashtag no BS Tribe, where two remarkable individuals teach people to embrace vulnerability every other Saturday morning, which led me to dive into the emotional bungee jumpers, an experience that significantly improved my communication and leadership skills.
Speaker 2:Amut, thank you for giving us the shout out. Jennifer Lacey and I we do the no BS live stream every other Saturday and you we need to make it clear, Amut you are the one who did the work to build and enhance those communication skills and leadership skills and all the other skills and folks. If you're hearing this shout out, part of the reason is to motivate you to also send me a comment, leave a review or share this conversation with your people. Especially, if you leave me a comment, that gives me the opportunity to shout you out in the future. So now we're going to get back to the conversation.
Speaker 1:Maybe something beneath that, where you can kind of you don't have to be there, but you also don't have to be not saying the things that you're doing we can come to this confident place where you can advocate and ask for the things that you want and need.
Speaker 2:Yes, you nailed it right In my head. I had a friend growing up. You remember Beaker from the Muppets? Yes, okay, yep, that's who he is in my head, because he's always me, me, me, me, me. Look at me, look at me, look at me, me, me, and I'm like fuck and everybody knew. Oh, here we go. We're gonna have to listen to him brag for 30 minutes about the same thing. He bragged about the last six times we saw him. He bragged about the last six times we saw him. So in my head, me advocating for myself, that was the guy I didn't want to be. Yes, now, but my problem, or my misstep, was that I associated any style or version of advocating for myself with the negative experience or, I'll say it clearer, the repulsing experience I had from me me me me, and so I had to peel that apart, and what I'm taking is you.
Speaker 2:Your work is in that space. Yes, yes. Okay Now, what came first, like, how did you get there? Did you write a book and then say, okay, this is how you should do it, and then you should do it? Or you were helping all these big, gigantic, awesome companies and picked up on some stuff and wrote the book. What was the sequence or the path for you to be able to have the insight to help people understand that there's nuance and layers to all of this relationship and maybe, more specifically, self-advocacy stuff?
Speaker 1:Yeah, so okay, there are three different parts to this. First, what was the kind of the genesis of had me starting to look at this? And I live in California. We were at this offsite. It was this incredible, gorgeous venue and I remember watching like the waves break against the coast as it's coming in and how peaceful that was, and being in this suite and how disruptive everything was. We were doing this vision strategy mission discussion and the person that was leading it was fire hosing everything.
Speaker 1:And it was so fascinating because this person, unintentionally, was deflating everything in the room and saying how no, that doesn't make sense, and no, we can't do this, no, we can't do this, and shutting everybody down and the poo poo party. Yes, yes, it was crazy because you had this group of very talented people and we're doing this strategy offsite and we couldn't come together with a strategy because we weren't coming together with the right strategy, according to the person leading it.
Speaker 1:And it was fascinating because on the ride home with one of the people that I was there with, I'm so interested I felt when I saw at the the time I was in marketing and I really felt like oh if I wasn't in marketing, I think I would have been a psychologist.
Speaker 1:I'm so fascinated by why people do what they do and how they do it, and so I almost was having this meta experience of watching how everybody was in that room and shutting down, and I also had had a conversation with the leader. That night. We went and we walked after a bonfire and this person was perplexed as to what happened. They're all so smart. Why are they not offering good ideas, all of the things? It was? It was this really interesting? Oh, they're unaware of what's happening, they're unaware of the ripples that they're causing. And then you know what happens. We go back and is this strategy implemented? No, because people are not on board, they're not bought in, they're not all of the things.
Speaker 1:And so that's the moment where I started thinking, okay, how do I want to be? What is it that I'm paying attention to as far as relationships? And in that moment, I was remembering back several years ago, when I very first started managing and did not do it well, and we can talk about that in a few minutes. But so that was the place where I was like, wow, okay, this went so catastrophically bad. I really want to understand it.
Speaker 1:So I spent all of this time, even before thinking about a book, even before any of the other pieces, trying to understand it, like, how do I want to show up? And I really feel like every person that you interact with has some kind of gift to offer, something that you can really take from them if you choose to see it and and and that. That was the genesis of me doing all of that. Second, I want to tell you a funny story about my sweet son. So, spring of 2021, I went into his room and, jesse, to this day I have no idea where this came from and you're totally going to laugh, being in the construction industry, and probably all of your people are going to laugh.
Speaker 1:I know this is not how a bridge is built. Okay, so we should just start with that. And I don't know where this came from, but I walk in. You have to remember spring 2021,. But I walk in. You have to remember spring 2021, it's COVID, right? Yeah, my son then is a freshman in high school. He's now finishing up his freshman year in college. I walk in, Jesse, and I go ka-ching, ka-ching ding, and he looks at me like I've lost my mind and I say, hey, sweetheart, I'm here to build a bridge. Okay, I know that's not like what anything sounds like if you're building a bridge, but we're just going to go with the analogy because I love a good analogy.
Speaker 1:And I said every day I'm going to come in. I don't want to talk to you about what your room looks like. It looked like a crazy mess. I don't want to talk to you about your grades, which, by way, we're amazing, like super yeah but I feel like we're disconnected and I really want us to have a great bridge.
Speaker 1:So every morning I was coming in I was just asking him questions. He's a catcher, he plays baseball. What's it like to to kind of have lunch on zoom with your baseball buddies? It's your, your freshman year. What's it like? Like how are you doing Just? How are you doing in general? How are your friends Like? What are you finding? Just connection questions, what?
Speaker 1:do you want to be in 20 years, just whatever, anything that kind of popped into my mind. We just have a 15 minute conversation, okay, literally the next week, jesse, this thing it still gets me. He walks into my bedroom, which was also my office at the time, and he goes ka-ching, ka-ching, ding. Hi, mama, I'm here to build a bridge.
Speaker 2:Oh, wow.
Speaker 1:And that was the moment that I realized. That was the moment that I realized, oh, if it's a bridge, both sides have to build. If you're on one side building. You just have a lookout. Yep, that was the moment where I was like this this is a thing that people in organizations need to know.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:This is a thing that is going to be a game changer, because so often you just have one side. That's like trying, trying, trying, but if you don't have the other side, you're just, you're not building that bridge and so that's when I started really thinking about it, introducing it to the coaching that I was doing, introducing it to workshops, and then, several months later, did I start actually writing a book about it.
Speaker 2:Got you. So you observed it the disconnect. You observed the disconnect in the strategy session. Which folks I'm willing to bet every LNM family member out there listening to this has been to an annual strategy retreat, and more than one, and the best takeaway was the place they went was awesome. It was fun, because the deployment of the strategy rarely, rarely happens.
Speaker 2:And how do I say this? To use your story with your son In my head, it's a perfect picture of why he was reciprocating. It wasn't because you told him to. It wasn't because you said I'm going to build a bridge, I'm going to do my half, you need to do your half. It was because you demonstrated the behavior of what bridge building looks like.
Speaker 2:You would go to him, have a conversation of your curiosities and your interest in him as a human being, not how he's performing as your son or as a student A conversation and interest of him being a human being which planted a seed for him to do the same. And so, going back to, like the strategy sessions and I'm sure you've, I know that you've done bazillions and seen this over and over again I've been in a situation where the boss is telling everybody how it needs to be what it needs to look like, what shape, what tone, what font, la la la. And they say and I want this to be a safe and collaborative space, collaborate and people are like, as long as it's my idea.
Speaker 1:I love the collaboration.
Speaker 2:There's no bridge there right, and so there's no invitation of hey, come contribute to this yes and then there's frustration. Yes, because they're not contributing. It's like how can I soar with the eagles when I'm surrounded by turkeys and you're not surrounded by turkeys? You just plucked the feathers of all the eagles around you because of the way you behave.
Speaker 1:That's right.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yes, it's exactly right. Have you heard of the jar with the fleas? Yes, right, and they'll jump up and jump up, and jump up and jump up. But if you put the lid on, then they don't continue to jump as high. And then, when you take the lid off, they still don't jump as high because they've been trained not to. And sometimes leaders end up training their teams that hey, I know, I say that things that you're doing, so people's capabilities, how do you help me?
Speaker 2:And now I believe, and I really do, wholeheartedly want them to excel and share all their creativity, all their critical thinking. But because of the way I function, I'm suffocating that. How do you help me? Like a couple of pointers you would give to a stubborn, blind person like me.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so we talk about what potential impact could be If we've done a 360, it's even easier because then we see blind spots and we have discussions with stakeholders that we've said hey, here's some of the things that are coming up and here's the impact that you're having, because we all have great intentions, but we sometimes have impact that we don't realize. It's that imagine you're a speedboat and as you're going by, there are all these ripples and they're affecting everyone else, right?
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:You're not aware of what your wake is, You're still responsible for your wake. So one of the things that I talk about is what's the potential wake that you're causing there? Right Potential?
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:Unintended, but what is it? So we try to jump into what the other person might be thinking or feeling. Yeah, I hear you. It does sound really frustrating that they're not coming to you with ideas. What might be behind some of that? Oh okay, so when you're talking about doing strategy sessions, how is it that you are asking for them to come to the table? And I drill down to when are you bringing your ideas? When?
Speaker 2:are they?
Speaker 1:bringing their ideas, because if it is somebody that is just coming to the table and they already know what their ideas are and you know they're doing active listening. That's not active listening.
Speaker 2:Oh, don't even get me started on that.
Speaker 1:So we basically peel back the onion and I would say to all your listeners what is it? What assumptions are you making about people?
Speaker 2:Are you?
Speaker 1:assuming that they don't have great ideas. Okay, well, what led you to believe that and how might some of the stuff that you're doing have some kind of impact on that? And if you go to the table thinking that they have great ideas, you're actually going to be acting differently. How do you encourage those great ideas and how do you encourage the implementation of those great ideas?
Speaker 1:Because, here's the fascinating thing that's happening right now. We're in this economy where people are really nervous. Right, there have been layoffs, trust is really low and there is not a ton of transparency. There's a lot of uncertainty, and so a lot of organizations are moving to more performance and accountability metrics, and I get it. However, we also need to have the human capital metrics, because companies also are saying there's not a lot of innovation. Well, how are you making it okay for people to Experiment Fail, yes, but that's exactly right to experiment. What are you encouraging and how are you doing that, both with the mindset that you're coming in and the things that you're doing?
Speaker 2:Yes, oh, I love it. So two things I want to Three things the experiment the reason I like the word experiment is because failure is inherent in that exercise, because I'm going to run multiple experiments to get the outcome that I want.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:I cannot experiment if failure is, if there's a punitive response to failure in experimentation which is very different than failing or refusing to comply with the roles and responsibilities that I've signed up for. Those are two different things 100% yes.
Speaker 2:Yes, but it's easy to like, co-mingle them or me being the limiter, the limiting leader. My behavior signals to people and I love that you like the wake. I am responsible for the impact of the weight, even though I can't see it Like for me. The biggest struggle I had was I didn't understand that, like in my head, I'm still a skinny, troublemaking plumber from the South side. I'm not skinny anymore, I'm still a troublemaker. So as I got promoted into different roles and levels of the organization, I didn't understand that my title amplified my behaviors and my words.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:And it took a long time for me to really take ownership of like, hey, dummy, don't say dumb things, because you're giving people permission to say and do dumb things Anyhow. I know not everybody has that problem, but I did so. That was the second point. Now, in terms of seeing the issue like the 360 survey folks, if you don't know what a 360 is, is it's a survey that like, let's say again, I'm the limiting leader. Everybody not my bosses they're going to get surveyed. The customers external to the organization, they're going to get surveyed. The people that report to me that I'm the boss of, they're going to get surveyed and it'll give me information from that demographic or that perspective of the stakeholders. So I get to see.
Speaker 2:And here's like the first time you want to guess what happened to me. The first time is Kimberly. My bosses were very pleased with me. Everybody else hated me Cause. Guess what? All of my focus and effort and energy was on self-preservation and pleasing the bosses. I wasn't doing that on purpose, it's just a function of whatever. And then I'm like, oh, that's not good, like I don't, I'm a suck up. Like, basically, this report is telling me I'm a brown noser, I need to take better care of my people.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:And when I made that shift it was ginormous. So, anyways, my point was the 360 survey. That's the idea, folks, If you haven't had one and you have an opportunity to do one, there's formal, magical ways to do it. Or come up with a set of questions and ask everybody around you those questions. You'll learn some stuff.
Speaker 1:Yes. So here's the thing, too, is that what I encourage people to do is the success of the project is not just some of the metrics that you see. It's also the relationship solid team, or working really well with this other person. How does that change some of the things that you're going to focus on? And so the book talks about how you can build, how you can strengthen and how you can repair the bridge, and there are nine for each of those.
Speaker 1:It's in that strengthen piece where we talk about what are the expectations and how do you align on or how do you really set good expectations, because I like to say unset expectations are predetermined disappointment.
Speaker 1:Oh, 100%, because, if you don't know, and again, like all these bricks, both sides have to play. I need to understand the expectations of my manager, my manager needs to understand my expectations too, and then aligning on goals and then really having that kind of growth mindset, that opportunity hey, we can really grow together. Exactly what you're talking about is so important for having the really good relationship that sometimes people don't think about. They're like you know what. I just need this bid to come in on time. Forget everybody else, just get me the information and then sorry, the next person they're going to have to deal with if I cut some corners or whatever so that I could get it in or the person that takes the bid and then actually goes and does the project is wait, this information didn't include everything and so now we're going to be out of scope and then it's upset Right.
Speaker 2:Yes, right, yes, the way I think of that, or the way that lands in my head, is there's the radical chase of outcomes. Yes, deliver the damn estimate which causes us to be blind, to like the unintended consequences, specifically in the relationship, human interaction stuff. Because, yes, I got the thing done, yeah, but I had to put somebody else on the back burner and I mean it's not to the degree that the team deserves, but my butt was on the line to get it to you by noon and I got it to you by noon.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:There's going to be collateral damage that plays out in the human interaction relationship space. That's, yeah, exactly, exactly. That plays out in the human interaction, relationship space.
Speaker 1:That's yeah, exactly exactly and that's the thing that when we have the economy like we do right now, sometimes people shift to that and just putting on a performance metric or an accountability metric that is just mine instead of looking at the bigger picture and we can slip into these, just as we were talking about before transactional relationships instead of really focusing on how the relationship is. Here's a funny thing They've actually found that high trust teams are five times more productive that high trust teams are five times more productive.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, yeah, am I wrong in thinking that high trust teams means conflict is okay?
Speaker 1:Oh, I love that you're asking that question, because people look at the word conflict and they think it's going to be like some loud fisticuffs and all these things. You have conflict when you're doing brainstorming, when you have different kind of opinions. So when you have a high trust team, it means it should mean that it actually enables those conflict discussions to be navigated so much better, because one of the other pieces when you're looking at repairing the bridge, it's curiosity, it's listening, it's ownership, and so you actually can navigate conflict really well when you have this basis of really solid trust, really solid connection. And then you do dive into the curiosity Okay, so what is it? And you're trying to understand what the other person is saying oh, why? What is it that is so important about that for you? And then when you understand that maybe the two of you are actually not as far apart as you thought right, yes.
Speaker 1:Yes, find that common ground which for any company, there's an awful lot of common ground right.
Speaker 2:Yes, yeah, but I'll personalize it for me. The reason I couldn't see the common ground is because I was in the state of fear, state of self-preservation. So I was blinded to hey, we all get the same check and it has the same signature on it. Our jobs and the growth of our company and our careers is contingent on our performance today working together. But because I was so, I need to win at all costs, which meant even my teammates had to lose, played out in less than optimal outcomes.
Speaker 1:That's right. Yeah, yes, and that's why, a lot of the times, I say, okay, let's go back to the foundation of the bridge. Is there trust? Is there respect and connection is okay. What do you need, jesse, if we're working together? What do you need to be your best self at work? And what do I need to be my best self at work? And if I joke that we play trust chicken sometimes, well, I'll trust you as soon as you trust me. Oh yeah, I'm gonna trust you and you can't do that again.
Speaker 1:Right, it's conditional Both sides need to be building together, and respect is this safety that we create. So you're right when you are feeling, oh my gosh, I need to perform and I need, and you're like, literally I see people kind of scrunch up and get nervous and, oh my God, things are not working out out. I'm so exhale and go back to what's that foundation a how do you trust you? How do you trust that you know you're doing the things that you need to do to show up? And then also, how do you rebuild some of that trust and respect?
Speaker 1:yes with that other person, potentially throughentially, through getting really curious, potentially it's also through really listening to the other person, and a lot of time it's also hey, wow, I caused some fracture in our bridge and I really want to own that. Let's have a discussion and I'm going to own my part, the other person's going to own their part, and then we have this good understanding of how we want to move together, how we want to move.
Speaker 2:You triggered a thought Okay, so I've worked with the leader. Or rather, what's your advice here? Communicate expectations and never secure commitments, which always turns into resentment and disappointment for them. And then I, I'm the guy. Then I decide to change my ways, but there's this shadow, the wake right. There's this shadow of damage that has informed people of what to expect from me. Yeah, now I've changed my behavior, but the shadow doesn't go away, and so I get really impatient and frustrated because they're still not trusting me yes what, what?
Speaker 2:what's the deal there? I'm, I'm doing the right. Why don't they trust me? Yeah?
Speaker 1:yeah, yeah. So here's the thing. They are making an assumption, right, and that's then I hear the hurt and frustration and hey, Kimberly, I'm doing the right thing, and so what we look at there is okay. Some of this, then, is going to be packaging and branding. Right, Because one of my favorite quotes from Jeff Bezos is your brand is what people say about you when you're not in the room.
Speaker 1:You can change that brand, okay. So, hey, let's, let's create what is that brand that you want to create? And then let's over index on some of the communication and so great. Here are a few things Proactively tell people hey, I'm wanting to make sure that there's transparency here. My timeline is like this and I will let you know if it feels like there's something that's going to affect that, and I'm going to proactively talk to you early on so that there aren't surprises. I know that previously there have been surprises and frustrations and whatever, and so here's what I'm doing, so you're just really transparent about how you're continuing to do that.
Speaker 1:And it does. It does Because, unfortunately, our brain is primed to remember the like, the negative. We then can proactively reprime people's brains to think about it in a positive way.
Speaker 1:right, sometimes it's also just resetting. Hey, let's talk about how we work together. How would you like to be informed if there are going to be misses? How would you like to cool? You know what? It's really important to me that you feel like you can trust this process again. Maybe we were doing like monthly status. What if I also, just every two weeks, send you an email status on how it is Right? So it's over going on it and it's also I would work with the other person internally to be like okay, I want you to think about where you're getting wins, where these different things. So you're also and I'm going to nerd out on the brain for just a second being called the reticular activating system, and your brain primes itself. So if you start looking for the ways that it's working instead of the ways it's not working, yes.
Speaker 1:You're going to set yourself up to be successful, because if your brain's always oh, they're never going to believe that I've changed. You're going to see that and you're going to also, unfortunately, act accordingly, unintentionally.
Speaker 2:Yep, self-confirming bias right, oh there, it is there. It is there and you said it. We can program it. Totally, yeah, yes, okay. So now I'm the flea.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:I'm the flea in the jar and and I got one of those limiting leaders. What do I do? Do I just shrink to fit in the conditions? Do I quit? Do I tell them to pound sand? What pointers do you have for me?
Speaker 1:The two things that I get most often when I do a talk. Jesse, that question. And the other one is like do I just burn the bridge? At what point? Like I've got friends that have gasoline and matches, and like I'm ready ready to go sometimes. So those are the two questions I get is if I'm a flea or what bridges should I just burn down?
Speaker 2:Kimberly yes.
Speaker 1:Okay. So the flea question. This is all. Who do you want to be right and how do you want to be Okay?
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And I had an executive and this person was just in a really hard, hard, hard space. Jesse, we know, as a coach, I take confidentiality very, very important. There is no way that they can figure out who this is, so I'm not breaking any kind of confidentiality here. This client was just in a really, really hard space with a limiting leader, was just in a really, really hard space with a limiting leader and consistently trying to do the right thing and to show up in an incredible place. And actually it's funny because, as I'm saying this, I actually can think of five different clients I've had in this space. Right, it's a common thing I've been in this space, right?
Speaker 2:Yep.
Speaker 1:And so you need to decide. Who do I want to be? I'll tell you three things. Right, who do I want to be? Right, Fundamentally, am I going to shrink or not? And my makeup is just don't shrink, it's just in my DNA. The second piece, though, is where do I get my value and validation? So it doesn't wreck me internally.
Speaker 2:I like that. Yes, yes.
Speaker 1:Because that kind of a leader can wreck you and change how you feel about you and your confidence and stuff like that. And I'm not going to lie like Jesse. That was a big misstep for me and huge learning is I was in, I had a really horribly challenging manager that said some really horribly challenging things and I pretzeled myself to try to prove that I was this incredible leader. And again and again and again, and so I started looking for other ways that I would know that I was doing the right thing, because it wasn't going to come from this leader.
Speaker 2:It wasn't.
Speaker 1:And so I just needed to kind of accept that. The other piece is then in doing that. The third thing is, I would say get your own kind of board of directors. Yes, you then navigate that so it's not this one person that potentially is ruining your reputation. And then you can and I've had several clients you can move yourself into another role where you are valued. It's such a core thing. We want to be valued, we want to be seen, and so you just you have to realize, like, where do you get that value? And that it doesn't necessarily come from this person, who may or may not be the best equipped manager.
Speaker 2:Oh, the one thing that stands out is find another source for your validation, because you can absolutely do that, and I just love the way you phrase that. And no wonder people say, man, this stuff applies at home too. Oh yeah, I've been in those relationships where she's just never going to be happy and very, very unhealthy, lost myself entirely trying to contort myself to make her happy. Yes, and it was impossible. And so, before I burnt and demolished the bridge, I started finding another source to fill my cup from, and that was family.
Speaker 1:And then I burnt the bridge, okay. So as far as romantic relationships go, I feel like there isn't one person that's going to be the end, all everything for you. This is going to be the end, all everything for you. This is going to be the person I do everything with. I think it's almost an unfair thing to think that one person can be everything. So find some of those pieces from your friends, from your family, from work, from different things, and also find that phenomenal person that lifts you up, that you have this incredible bond with. Person that lifts you up, that you have this incredible bond with that loves you deeply and it's, it's, there's like, whatever it takes a village to raise a child, I think it also just takes a village for you to be a whole person too.
Speaker 2:You know, yeah, yeah, which speaks to the personal advisory board. Like for me, I, my personal advisory council, has been something I stumbled on, I don't know eight or nine years ago, but it was like man, I want to grow, I want to learn, I want to improve, I want to serve better, and there's a whole lot of gaps that I got and it can't one person fill those gaps.
Speaker 2:So I said, okay, I'm going to talk this person for this, this person for this, this person, and it moves around. Yeah, but it's been tremendous it's been, and so the same thing. Right, it's okay. Where do I get?
Speaker 1:my validation and support and reinforcement. From there we go. There's another clue Exactly yes, yes, and it makes complete sense, right? We go to people for how do I fix my car? To a doctor, to finances, to all these different things. Of course, it makes complete sense to get your own personal and professional board, and here's the reason it's so, so, so important at work. Again, we go back to what your brand is. It's a critical thing that you know what your brand is. If you don't and for a while I didn't I didn't pay attention to it. I had the same thing that your parents did you just head down, work hard and everything good is just going to happen to you.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:It's important to know, because everybody has blind spots and you can't address them. Silly sentence you can't address a blind spot unless you know what the blind spot is. You also can't know the blind spot if you don't have people that are willing to speak truth to you.
Speaker 2:Oof, yes, yes, yes. Which takes us back to trust and conflict like those things. I am a heavy advocate for conflict. It's my favorite place to be and I'm probably maybe overly comfortable with it because I know and I spent years and years and years dancing so as not to offend anybody.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:And that is misery for me.
Speaker 2:So now I just go straight at it, because I know on the other side of conflict is amazing magical stuff. Like for one thing for sure, in every conflict situation I went after, the one thing that always happens is I am 100% clear. It may not be in the direction that I want it to be, but I am 100% clear that that person is not in favor of the thing that we were dancing around. And so good. Now, if you're not going to partner me on me with that, no problem, I'll find somebody else instead of wondering and him Hein and secret message and passive jabs yeah, that kind of junk.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Do this go? How do you want to do this or not? Yeah, I'm getting the sense that this is not something you're as interested in today as you thought you were last month. And I've had people like damn, I'm like like no judgment, yeah, this one, it looks like from here and I just need to know. And I've had people say, jess, I did, I wanted to be collaborating, but I don't have as much time as I thought I did, so I'm not going to be able to go at the rate that you go.
Speaker 2:Cool, I still love you and whenever you want to get back on the train, let me know. But I got to go and I'll go find somebody else that can run with me and it's good. Go, and I'll go find somebody else that can run with me and it's good, instead of tiptoeing and fearing and oh my God, what. It's almost never been bad. But again, the 100% thing that, on my end anyways, is when I go after the conflict on the other side of the conflict is I know for sure where people stand and what the next step is. Most of the time it's really awesome and amazing. Sometimes it's icky, but I'm clear, I don't have to wonder anymore.
Speaker 1:And you know what that does is that builds the trust. Yes and it also builds the respect, because it's hilarious that you say dancing because Sunday. It's hilarious that you say dancing because Sunday I co-led a workshop with another coach and we called it Dancing with the Divide.
Speaker 1:And it was all about conflict and how you can advocate conflict through some curiosity and confidence and communication. So I love that. So I love that. And it's really fascinating to me because so many people are conflict averse because they're nervous about what's going to happen. And you bridge analogy. They're worried that, hey, I cause a fracture and the bridge is going to break down and we're never going to be able to get it back together. And the irony is it's exactly the opposite, because once you actually go and pay attention, you know what? Jesse? I'm going to tell you a quick story.
Speaker 1:So January of last year I did an offsite with this team and they was a leadership team and they were just, they were in such heavy conflict and they we went off site for a few days to maybe an hour and a half, two hours into the session I said, ok, time out. I know we've got all these things planned and activities and great stuff. We need to sit down and actually just talk. We need to sit down and actually just talk, because there's so much conflict and avoidance and frustration across the board. We're not even going to be able to do any of these exercises because I was thinking we were in a different place and we need to go to square one.
Speaker 1:We were in a different place and we need to go to square one. We need to really back up, and what's really cool is we went through all of this stuff. We reset, literally on the fly, changed how the whole day and a half was going to go. I don't know if you've ever had that, but that's also really good learning, by the way. Like you may have the best of plans, but then you get there and you need to adapt, you need to pivot, you need to pay attention to what's in the field with everybody else, and so we called a timeout. I'm not a big football person, but I do know this one.
Speaker 1:We called an audible and changed course, made a few different play adjustments. And I, changed course, made a few different play adjustments. And I just heard back from them a month ago and this SVP said Kimberly, you know what? The stuff that we did on that offsite is still paying dividends Because we go and you go through all of the rupture and you actually do. I hate even calling it the hard thing because I feel like that primes the brain the wrong way, but when you navigate through the conflict that you've just been avoiding, we then get to a better place because there wasn't trust.
Speaker 1:There were all these side conversations there wasn't respect, there was cattiness, there were just all these things that people weren't working well together and there was no connection and people were making massive assumptions. And now you actually have this group that is working so well together and when they face other things, the bridge is stronger because they know they can go through the rupture. They know they can go through the rupture, they know they can repair, they know they have that trust and now every time you go through the conflict it actually improves the bridge for them and I was like I'm so happy.
Speaker 2:The ability and the courage to sense. Wait a minute. This is not the stuff I got planned for this workshop or this experience. Yes, these conditions, this ain't going to work.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So that's experience that you brought to the table, which is amazing. And then the courage to say we got to have some hard conversations, y'all Like we ain't going to be playing games that ain't going to get us nowhere. It'll be fun, it'll be entertaining, but it's not going to have any impact, so we're going to go back. Applause to you, ms Kim, because I know how scary and also how exhilarating that is yes, because like you were there, like, oh, I knew it. Finally, these people are having the conversation.
Speaker 1:Yes, yeah oh right, you do have to say okay, ego, we're gonna set you over here. I understand, it was this beautiful plan of a project. We're going to scrap this part and we're going to do this, and I feel like that's also a thing, as leaders, that you need to do. When you're not connecting with your team, you need to say okay, we're going to have a moment of humility here and we need we need to do something different instead of just charging through and being like you don't get, a pass you don't get.
Speaker 2:we don't have license to blame them, if we can see it.
Speaker 1:Yes, when I first started managing, I was like I've got this. I've had some great managers, I've had some bad managers, I know how to do this and I had this amazing person that I had hired and I thought we're going to kill it. This is going to be amazing and the first several months incredible. And then and we were working side by side and our ROI return on investment the audience was growing. This is back when I was running marketing at a startup and I was on fire so excited. And then I thought, hey, I did the golden rule of managing Jessie. I'm going to manage her the way that I would want to be managed Well. In my mind, that's trust and respect. So I wouldn't want somebody sitting with me every day that would feel like you don't really trust me on my own, you don't respect my ability. So I said and this is her real name because it ends really well I said, hey, megan, you're going to now own all of this stuff. And she originally said great, that's amazing. So she goes off Within a matter of weeks.
Speaker 1:Does the ROI start tanking Like audience? We were going engagement this way? Nope, roi off a cliff. Things are being turned in and I had no idea why I was so confused, thinking, hey, we were working really well together. You're not turning stuff in. Roi is getting so much, just it's crummy, we're not getting conversion. All of the metrics just plummeted. So first I was really upset with her and blaming her. And then I was really upset with me and blaming me and just like you go into that kind of whirlpool of catastrophic thinking I'm a horrible manager, I'm never going to be able to do this. What's wrong To thinking, oh my God, I may not be great at marketing, mind you, I've been great at marketing before, but now it's just totally gone.
Speaker 1:And then I paused because my favorite manager is my grandfather and he was an expert at managing and one of the things that he did best, Jesse, was connect with people and find out what they actually needed. So I sat down with Megan and at first we were talking about the ROI and why the ads weren't kind of coming in, why she wasn't delivering stuff. We talked about why the ROI was tanking, why she wasn't posted, like all these different things, and you hear that keyword. I was using why, which is not a great word, right.
Speaker 2:It's accusatory.
Speaker 1:It is right. It's got all this built-in crummy stuff to it. So I first started changing that and started asking what and how questions. I second also started asking her questions about her and what was going on for her. Yep, crazy thing. Here's what she needed. She wanted a 10 minute check-in every morning and a five minute checkout. She wanted to know how everything was going. She wanted to know. Hey, she wanted to tell me that I'm going to be doing.
Speaker 2:Yep.
Speaker 1:She also wanted validation. At the end, hey, this is what I did. Did it work? She wanted to connect about her. At the time, boyfriend Ben, now husband, father of her adorable child.
Speaker 2:Wow.
Speaker 1:We started doing that and everything turned around.
Speaker 2:Came back. Everything came back, and here's the thing.
Speaker 1:Lest anybody think that she is a high maintenance person. She's actually not. She is a VP of marketing, absolutely killing it now. Right, and she was a rock star. I just wasn't managing her the way that she needed to be managed.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:This was a me thing.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:Once I sat down and talked to her and connected with her, everything changed and this is such a game changer thing. I can't tell you the number of people. I got a workshop about how you connect with people. I've talked to executives. Here's how you connect with people. I've talked to executives. Here's how you connect with people. It is literally turned around. I've had countless executives say I was going to fire this person and then we started having this connection and it is completely different. It changes the whole dynamics of the relationship and it is not the heavy lift that people think it is to build relationships.
Speaker 1:It is the crucial lift to build the relationships.
Speaker 2:I love that. I love the crucial lift. So, summary trust lives in conflict. Conflict avoided is conflict multiplied. Yes, understand what people value and appreciate. So here's a question that I like to ask and, similar to you I did it wrong for so damn long but super simple question that I'd love to get your thoughts on. I ask people on a high frequency, especially like people I'm working with direct reports and so forth it's this how can I better serve you? Yes, and people. When I asked that question, people were like oh, what do you mean? Well, we're partnering on this thing, we're working together, like our success is interdependent. How can I better serve you?
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:What do you need? Do you need resources? Do you need time? Do you need to like? Tell me, tell me what it is. I'm not saying I'm going to do all of it, but if I know I can at least work towards getting those resources or whatever it is to better serve you. Because if I better serve you, the outcomes for all of us are going to be greater. And I throw that question out there because I used to have a mindset of oh my God, I got to go hold everybody's hand and I'm supposed to know their stupid dog's name, and I hate freaking dogs. And it's not that, it's simply discovering how to better serve them. And if I ask that question that way, that's already an immense deposit in the emotional bank account. That starts the trust meter running. What do you think?
Speaker 1:I love that. I absolutely love that, and I think that part of the key of that is is the what do you need? Right, and asking it as a serve. I think it's also really important to ask, when somebody comes to you and they're really frustrated, to also ask what is it that you want in this moment? Because sometimes an event.
Speaker 1:sometimes they really actually want to be appreciated. Sometimes they want a solution. By the way, this is a great thing to ask you. We're talking about relationships at home and other places. It's a great, significant other way to ask it. It's a great way, if you have teens or younger kids to ask it. It's actually a great thing to ask as a to a friend, right? What is it that you want? What is it that I can do in this moment to your point that's going to serve you best?
Speaker 2:Yes, right, yeah, yeah, all right. So my guess is, for anybody that's oh my God, I need more of this. They can go and get Me at the Bridge and get the bricks, the nine bricks, and all the frameworks and mental models and directions and magical formulas to enhancing their relationships. And do they go to Amazon? Do they go to your website?
Speaker 1:Amazon is a great place to go. Amazon works really well.
Speaker 2:Okay, there you go. Amazon works really well. Okay, there you go, and I'll make sure that we get a link in the show notes down there so people can access that. Now I kind of brushed over this, but you are a certified coach. I mean, you've said it, you coach, you help people with workshops, but you are a certified coach, a bestselling author. You've worked with ginormous I mean hell, apple, like biggest damn company. Nobody doesn't know Apple. So you come with a ton of credibility and am I speaking out of turn by saying you do serve companies, individuals, teams, nonprofit, private enterprise, all of the above You're happy to help them get their stuff more gooder.
Speaker 1:Exactly yes, I have my leadership program. So I have a leadership program that came out of this book. I have done the leadership program with huge organizations to level up their directors. I've also run through a nonprofit and to help with their leadership team. I have several clients that are C-level clients as well. I have clients that are founders and then middle management. So I generally help across the board and across a number of industries and globally.
Speaker 2:So yeah, of course you do, duh Awesome. So we'll make sure we'll get your website. Which website, if they don't want to wait and they want to hear it. What's your website?
Speaker 1:Yeah, so the name of my company is O2U, so from overwhelmed to unstoppable, and I help create unstoppable teams. So the website is wwwfrom O for the overwhelmed, to like the number two, u for unstoppablecom, so from O2Ucom, o2ucom.
Speaker 2:Oh, I love that From O2Ucom, with the two in the middle. Yes, oh, that is that's. You must know. You must be marketing, You're a marketing person.
Speaker 1:I mean storytelling, branding, creating connections. Those are jam.
Speaker 2:Yes, oh man. Well, we've been having so much fun talking about fleas, we didn't get to talk about the other book, and so maybe what do you say? We just kind of drop a teaser there and let people know that there is another book currently being baked.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yes, yep, working on it as we speak. So, yes, yes, there will be nine bricks, and a few will be the same and most of them will be different.
Speaker 2:so nice, very, and this is the bridge within us yes, yeah, it's the bridge back to yourself. Oh my goodness, I'm getting chills, just thinking about it.
Speaker 2:I'm not going to tell y'all anymore. You're going to have to come back to hear part two of when that book is ready to launch. We'll definitely be talking again, ms Kimberly, and so I got the final question for you, okay? And given all your breadth of experience and your heart, it's clear to me how much of your heart you put into the work that you do, the things that you observe and see. I'm excited to hear your answer. So here's the question.
Speaker 1:All right, I'm ready.
Speaker 2:What is the promise you are intended to be?
Speaker 1:Oh, I love this question, the promise I am intended to be. Oh, I love this question, the promise I am intended to be. I think it is all about creating those magical connections with people. I told you that I really believe that every person has some kind of a gift. It is creating that kind of magical connection between people, creating an incredible bridge, creating an incredible learning more about them, really seeing them, appreciating them. There's something just magical about those different connections.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, it'd be something around like creating connection, creating magical connection, yeah, oh, I love that and you're doing it Not only like for the people you connect with, me being one of them, but you're also helping other people do that, so you're living that promise I wasn't. I'm not surprised at all at how touching your answer or your response is. Did you have fun?
Speaker 1:I had so much fun. I'm already looking forward to coming back. Jesse, we will definitely do this again.
Speaker 2:Yes, ma'am.