Learnings and Missteps
The Learnings and Missteps Podcast is about unconventional roads to success and the life lessons learned along the way.
You will find a library of interviews packed with actionable take aways that you can apply as you progress on your career path.
Through these interviews you will learn about the buttons you can push to be a better leader, launch a business, and build your influence.
Find yourself in their stories and know that your path is still ahead of you.
Learnings and Missteps
Beyond Blueprints: Emotional Intelligence in Construction with Brent Darnell
Emotional intelligence pioneer Brent Darnell takes us through his remarkable 25-year journey transforming the construction industry's approach to people. With disarming honesty and profound insights, he reveals how human connection stands at the core of solving our industry's most pressing challenges—from mental health crises to workforce development struggles.
"It goes beyond just being a better leader or a better manager of a construction process," Brent explains. "They become better human beings." This powerful truth underlies his revolutionary work, which began in 2000 when introducing emotional intelligence training to skeptical construction professionals was considered radical. Having superintendents practice yoga and meditation seemed outlandish then, but Brent persisted, eventually proving how these practices enhance performance while reducing personal wear and tear.
The conversation highlights how our industry has evolved from purely adversarial relationships to more collaborative approaches, creating an urgent need for the very skills Brent champions. As he shares the story of a superintendent who transformed from being removed from a project to becoming COO in just ten months through emotional intelligence training, we witness the tangible power of this work.
Most compelling is Brent's exploration of how the "respect for people" pillar of Lean construction remains overlooked despite its critical importance. His practical advice for building better connections—daily application, reflection, and self-awareness—offers listeners actionable steps toward immediate improvement in their professional and personal lives.
Visit brentdarnell.com for free emotional intelligence assessments, body battery inventories, and resources that can help you become a better leader and human being. What construction challenges might you solve by improving your emotional intelligence and human connection skills?
Connect with Brent at:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/brentdarnell/
Make yourself a priority and get more done: https://www.depthbuilder.com/do-the-damn-thing
Download a PDF copy of Becoming the Promise You are Intended to Be
https://www.depthbuilder.com/books
It goes beyond just being a better leader or a better manager of a construction process. They become better human beings.
Speaker 2:What is going on? L&m family Back again. And I got to tell you I'm a little extra, extra jazz, maybe even starstruck, because the guest we have today. I was having flashbacks in preparation for this conversation when I decided to like quit my real job and not wear pants every day. Several people said you need to talk to this guy Like this. It sounds like this is what you're doing and I'm like well, who is he? And all today it came back oh, this is Brent. This is the guy everybody was telling me about. So I'm super, super stoked.
Speaker 2:He is an OG, like the OG on people issues in the AEC space architect, engineer, construction, like all of that. When it comes to people. He has been playing this game since before it was like a popular thing which is super, super interesting, and then you might be thinking like people issues. We talk about people issues, talking about mental stuff that has something to do with people, physical stuff, people and emotional stuff and not just stuff, but like performance, mental performance, physical performance and emotional performance. He's been at it for a very long time.
Speaker 2:I'm just a little scrub, a little squinkly, trying to tinker around in this space and I'm like over the moon that I get to interview him and introduce you guys out there to mr brent. Mr brent darnell, and before we get into that, if this is your first time here, this is the Learnings and Missteps podcast, where you get to meet amazing human beings just like you who are sharing their gifts and talents to leave this world better than they found it. I'm Jesse, your selfish servant, and we are going to get to know Mr Brent Darnell. Mr Brent, how are you, my friend?
Speaker 1:Doing great Things are awesome Probably better than I deserve. Life is good. I'm loving what I'm doing. I'm really seeing that the industry is catching up now and really focusing on all the people stuff and I think it's because it kind of bit us in the butt a little bit with mental health stuff and substance use disorders and workforce development and even that diversity and equity and those kind of things.
Speaker 1:I think those are all the people issues and I think we sort of shoved them under the carpet for the longest time. And now they're like they're crises, and now we're really starting to pay attention. I mean, that that's my take on it. Maybe I got it all wrong, but that's my take on it brand.
Speaker 2:I agree a hundred percent. Here's what I see happening. We can't just throw money at the problem anymore, and by problem I mean the people problem, right, the shortage of people let's forget about bringing people in Taking care of, appreciating and valuing the people that we have is a problem, and the volume of work that's available right now is I mean, it just keeps getting bigger and things need to go faster. And then there's this thing, brent, that you probably read about it, spoken it, spoken about and seen it a bunch of times. Everybody knew that at this time, like this decade, the baby boomers were going to be leaving the industry.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and we're now yeah, it wasn't a big shock. We sort of knew this was coming right for a decade.
Speaker 2:and now it's what happened to all the experience, bro, it's been happening for a long time, yeah, and so because you have all of these things, and then you know what, maybe what couldn't have been foresaw is the dwindling number of people that want to come in to the industry and and the like you said, the substance abuse, suicide, like people not staying in the industry, or rather their lives deteriorating because of the conditions in the industry, like it's the perfect storm for companies, decision makers to say, oh crap, we got to do it different.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:What do you think?
Speaker 1:I think it's so true, and I've boiled it down to all of these the root cause to me is human connection. Human connection so that's what I've been focusing on the last couple of years is how do we connect better as human beings? And that involves all kinds of things Great listening, great communication, respect, trust of things. Great listening, great communication, respect, trust just really getting in the shoes of the other person, understanding them in a profound way. And then that connection leads to so many other things. They feel safe, they feel like they belong, they feel like they're part of something bigger than themselves, they feel respected. And when you get all that going on, plus, you want to sprinkle on top, just make their lives better. And when you get all that going on plus, you want to sprinkle on top, just make their lives better. Why would you go anywhere else? Why would you go to any other company or any other industry when you have that? Why would you risk that?
Speaker 2:Yes, I have a theory and right now everybody, every company, every single one, is offering competitive pay and benefits. Right, that's back when I was, I just got my journeyman license and TD Industries had started doing work here in San Antonio. This was back in 1999, probably and the big draw was they had benefits. That was a big deal, because nobody really subcontractors didn't really have benefits. They had some, maybe vacation or something, but they had all the benefits. That's not a thing anymore. Everybody has them. Everybody's offering competitive pay, everybody's offering benefits. From their perspective Maybe it's not competitive, but from the employer's perspective it is right.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And so my theory is this is the decision makers, the influencers in those organizations that figure out how to demonstrate, like you said, appreciation and invest in the human being beyond their job description. Yeah, they're going to win the talent game. What do you think?
Speaker 1:Yeah, For all the companies that don't do it. People are going to be leaving their companies and going to these companies that do this and you wonder why don't they get that and why don't they invest in that? But they don't. This guy, Wally Adamczyk, who does a lot of the same stuff. We were having this discussion. We struggle with relevance every day, Like we get the feeling sometimes that 90% of the contractors out there just think we're total idiots and don't know what we're doing and this is total, a waste of time and a bunch of crap and why are we even talking about this? So we struggle with that about once a week, right. But then you see the people that are doing it, you see the companies that are doing it and the people you're working with and the results and that kind of keeps us going right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you see the impact and it puts fuel in your tank like, okay, let me go against the friction. Well, and so that's today, in 2025.
Speaker 1:You started over 20 years ago down this path 2000 was the first program I did where we looked at emotional intelligence. We had these guys up and doing yoga every morning, yoga, meditation. You should have seen it, man. It was so funny. They would walk in the room at the hotel and it would be like kind of dark and there'd be some music playing and they would go back out and look and think is this the right place? What is this? Why are we doing this? They did this stuff and they felt the difference and they did some basic breathing and meditation and stuff. It was really effective for them as a miraculous. And some didn't want to admit that they did yoga. So they would say, hey, I think this yoga is a bunch of crap. And I'd say, well, it's okay, it's not for everybody. He said, yeah, but that breathing, the breathing stuff really helps me. I said, well, don't do yoga, just do that, just do the breathing stuff.
Speaker 2:I love it. That's hilarious, yes.
Speaker 1:Whatever you need to practice, bro, just do that and since then I've gotten my yoga teacher certification. So I'm a certified instructor now. Not that I'm going to teach, but I just wanted to do a little bit more with my own practice and deepen my practice. But it really gave me a lot of insights into an in-depth view of yoga and what it can do for you physically, mentally, emotionally. It's not for everybody, I tell people. If you don't like it, that's cool, but find your yoga, whatever that is. It could be walking in nature, it could be listening to music, it could be silence, it could be fishing. It could be listening to music, it could be silence, it could be fishing, it could be hunting Something that restores you in some way.
Speaker 2:Find what yours is. Yeah, so 25 years ago I mean, that's an interesting time and I'm referring to like my frame of reference. I see people nowadays every now and then when I'm doing my work, people look at me like, are you okay? Yeah, why You're not the same guy I knew 15 years ago. Right, a little bit Now. Two things are pinging in my head. One is why did you go down this path? What was it that triggered you to go down this path 25 years ago? The other thing that's pinging around in there is how hard was it back then compared to now?
Speaker 1:So I was working for Skanska at the time in Atlanta and they had this leadership program. That was an international program. Skanska was buying a bunch of international companies at the time and they said they wanted an American to run it. So I threw my hat in that ring and I ran this program that was an international program.
Speaker 1:Skotska was buying a bunch of international companies at the time and they said they wanted an American to run it. So I threw my hat in that ring and I ran this program for a couple of years and then at the end of the two years they said well, we're sort of done with this program, we're going to do something different. Go back to Atlanta. And I went back to Atlanta and I said, hey, man, I've learned all this great stuff about leadership and training and development and all this stuff. I want to do that here. And they went we don't need that crap, why would we do that here? We're fine, yeah, we're good, we don't need it, but thank you for offering.
Speaker 1:And then they said but we want you to go back and manage projects again. So they said there's a gymnasium at a high school, we want you to project manage. And I just I could not get excited about that after doing this international program for two years. It was a five-week program spread throughout the year. We were in places like Buenos Aires and Moscow and Prague and London and New York.
Speaker 1:And it was like wow, and so it was a great program. So I decided at the time I just said no, thank you, I don't want to manage projects again, I'm going to start my own business and do this stuff for real. And they just went yeah, good luck with that yeah. I said you'll be crawling back begging to manage a gymnasium in Albany.
Speaker 1:Georgia, georgia. And it was tough in the beginning because I tried to be everything to everybody. I tried to do environmental consulting. I was a lead accredited professional and wrote the environmental management system for Skotska in Atlanta. So I had a lot of environmental stuff. I tried to do a bunch of different stuff and I tried all industries. I tried IT and accounting, really yeah, and I was getting some work, but nothing really took off until I said, look, this is what I'm doing Emotional intelligence and all those critical people skills with a focus on performance for the construction industry. That's it. When I did that, things started taking off. I started getting some traction. I had companies that say we want to do that here. So I just kept building that resume, working with different companies, really figuring out how this really works, because the first time I did it for companies, I would come in for a day, we'd do the emotional intelligence training, they'd take the evaluations and I'd go. Now you're totally magically healed. You're now great with people. Thank you very much.
Speaker 1:Mic drop and I'm out.
Speaker 2:It's time for the L&M family member shout out. And this one goes to my buddy, mr Brian Melcher. He was gracious enough in letting me victimize him and his team with some training communication capabilities AKA emotional bungee jumpers and he sent me this message. He says, bro, your training is making a difference. Thanks for being willing to come out and spend the time with us. Have a great week. So I got to go to Phoenix and hang out with them for a couple of days and with the Field Verify crew Amazing human beings out there also in the construction space and folks. If you get a chance to leave a comment, do a share, leave a review. You know I love them because I love attention and it gives me the opportunity to shout you out in the future.
Speaker 1:And that just didn't work at all. So we started saying, well, what does work? So we started extending the time and we put out six months and then to eight months and then to nine months and then a full year, and then we added accountability, partners within the groups, and then we added individual coaching and follow up, and so the more we kept sort of doing these iterations of programs, they got better and better, and so that's how it evolved. And in the beginning it was hard. 25 years ago people it was mostly hard bid, it was mostly adversarial, siloed, even within companies, siloed and adversarial, and people didn't even think about like how could we do this in a different way?
Speaker 1:Lean was a gleam in someone's eye. I mean, that was 10 years before lean right, those guys started in the early nineties or late eighties, something like that. So that was just getting started. Design build was in its infancy CM, cm, at risk, all those collaborative project delivery methods were just not very well established, so people didn't need these skills. But then when they started getting the traction, then everybody said, wow, this is a different set of skills, we need to make these successful. So then that got more traction. So then it just kept building and I believe the industry started changing. And then they looked at me and said, hey, this is what we need right now. So that's when things started evolving and gelling and taking off. It's been such a great thing to see the industry doing those shifts and changes. I'm sure you've seen those changes as well.
Speaker 2:Right, I mean, I've lived it. Brett, I was a pretty good, we'll say, elbows and boots is how we got work done. I know for a fact that when I was a foreman and a superintendent for a mechanical contractor, there wasn't one client, one superintendent, project manager team for a GC that loved me, manager team for a GC that loved me, and it was. You remember the cartoon with Foghorn, leghorn and the dog. They would fight. They were the big rooster and the big dog. They'd clock out and then they were buddies. It's kind of how I like.
Speaker 2:Okay, I'm going to go to this job and I'm going to be fighting with Tommy today, and, okay, what are we going to fight about? Okay, I want to fight about this and see what he went. I went battle ready in my mindset. Yeah, it never occurred to me that, like collaboration and communication and like that would be a value, because I got there first and if I get there first I win. Period. Yeah, yeah, and so I've been able. Now I'm fortunate in that I work.
Speaker 2:I got lucky on the jobs that I had and the people that I got to work with in those jobs, because they influenced me. To look at it. There's a different way, it doesn't have to be this hard. And so by the time I started like applying the lean stuff and like getting beyond myself and thinking more about the team and the organization and the industry, I was not in the field anymore and it was like, man, I could have had so many friends. I didn't have friends. Yeah, like on the job site. I didn't have friends because if you couldn't, if I couldn't get anything out of you, I didn't need you, period. And like now, I know there's a lot of our brethren out there that still operate in that mode, but I was not. I was not proud or happy of the guy that I was, but it was what I had to do to perform and excel in the role. That was my frame anyways. So it was taxing on me emotionally, mentally, spiritually, and I had no here's the thing Like I had no idea.
Speaker 2:That's just the way it is or the way it works, and so over time I've gotten a little bit better. But well, I mean go ahead.
Speaker 1:That's one of the selling points. To superintendents I say how would you like to be more effective with a lot less wear and tear on you? Man boom yeah, they go hell, yeah, I want that. It's this people stuff that that will allow you to do that. Your job will be easier. It's a lot less wear and tear on you.
Speaker 2:It's just exhausting having to kick everybody's ass every day yes, that's the thing people don't know fighting, and it don't matter if it's like fighting, fighting like hands, fist, kicks, knees, elbows, or fighting mentally or verbally, you still get hit. Yeah, win or lose, it still hurts either way you leave stuff on the field. So, over that time particularly, I'm really curious about the 2000, because I remember that was kind of it was rare, I mean ultra, ultra, ultra rare to have a GC that was even doing some version of pole planning and it was seen as like this foo-foo, la-la stuff that didn't make us, they're just making us do it. It was the flavor of the month 25 years ago. Now what I'm curious about is of the folks that you've worked with in terms of what you wanted to deliver, like the experience or the transformation you wanted to spark in somebody, the transformation you wanted to spark in somebody, and what you actually got to see, or see witness glimpses of what. What's that like back then?
Speaker 1:well for me, like part of it was self-healing. I call myself a recovering jerk, right? I mean I'm a mechanical engineer, brain, technical person, smartest guy in the room, just a jerk Just putting down everybody. You're stupid, you're an idiot.
Speaker 2:Whenever?
Speaker 1:I could to put them down and put them in their place. Probably a lot of insecurity revolving around that as well. But so part of this was my own journey of just healing myself with this. So when I saw the results that I was getting and then saw the results that others were getting, it goes beyond just being a better leader or a better manager of a construction process. They become better human beings, and better human beings make better employees. I don't know why people don't get that, because early I would say but this guy's a better dad, he's a better husband, and they go. We don't give a crap. Who cares if he's a better husband.
Speaker 1:I work with this one guy. He's in Mexico, his name is Gabriel and he was typical alpha superintendent. 50 years old ass kicker was asked to be removed from a project. His own team didn't want to work with him. So he worked on human connection, being a better team player, working on his empathy.
Speaker 1:And he calls me about halfway through this process and he says I got a problem with my niece, can you help me? And I said I'm sure, especially if it has to do with your. I'm not a counselor or anything. He said well, she's moved in with us because she just got divorced and she lost her job and she has a pain in the ass and we really hate her. We're about to kick her out and she's telling us how to run our lives. And so I'm doing this on Skype, right, and I said, well. I said well, wow.
Speaker 1:So, as he's telling that, he's saying, well, she lost her job, she got a divorce, she can't afford her own place, his face does this. His face lights up and he goes. She feels bad about herself, doesn't she? What's that? That's empathy. That's working on. Yes, I said, well, what are you going to do? And he said, well, we're going to just tell her we love her and support her. And at the end of this coaching thing he said, wow, she's doing great, she's dating someone, she's looking for her own place, she has a job. We were just really supportive of her. And I always ask people does that make him a better superintendent? Well, hell, yes, it does, because now he has the empathy, understands his people better, he can motivate them better, he can support them better, they're going to trust him more. It all works together. And, by the way, this guy went from being removed from a project to COO in 10 months. Oh yeah, because I'm working on the people side of this thing and I saw him as a leader right.
Speaker 2:Because he can connect and influence people like that. Okay, yes, yes and yes. So you've mentioned connection and empathy. How do you do it? How does a person do connection and empathy?
Speaker 1:Well, it's a process. It's not like cognitive learning. It's not like a spreadsheet or how to do a budget or a schedule. It's more like learning to play a musical instrument or learning a language. It takes place in different parts of your brain so it takes a lot of repetition. We've got an activity guide and workbook that has tons of ways to develop things like empathy or any emotional competence.
Speaker 1:But the trick is daily application, daily reflection. You got to apply that daily. So, for empathy, maybe part of that is just asking people how are you doing today? And then follow that up with no, really, how are you doing today? And get them to start sharing that and then think about okay, did I get it right? Because it looked like to me he was really stressed today. Yeah, I'm kind of stressed today. Well, that's a great reinforcement. So then you reflect on okay, I got that. I'm starting to be able to discern the emotional states and people around me. So you apply it daily, you reflect daily and then you just keep getting better and having little nudges of insights.
Speaker 1:It's self-reinforcing behavior. You could even I mean you could do it just like an engineer would do it. Say, scale it one to 10. How are you doing today? Give me a number and then think, okay, I had it wrong. Maybe I'm thinking I'm seeing him as a two or a three and he says he's an eight or a nine. So I got to work on that. I'm going to be a little more in tune with that. You get this progression of first it starts with self-awareness. Once you get that pretty good, then you start recognizing those things in others and then guess what? Your relationships start getting better and just start with relationships. You got to start with your own self-awareness, if that's what needs to work right, yeah, okay.
Speaker 2:So I want to dive into self-awareness, because my brain does twisted things with everything, not everything. There's some things that I'll just split hairs to the nth degree, and self-awareness is one of those. So what I'm looking for is like a status check. No, jesse, you're nuts when I think of self-awareness. I don't think of self-awareness in terms of what triggers me when I'm in a good mood, how I behave, what I'm thinking, what I value. I think of self-awareness in terms of recognizing how the way I show up causes people to respond in a particular way respond in a particular way.
Speaker 1:Yeah, am I too far? No, you're spot on, because that's what informs the self-awareness, because it's discerning how you're coming across to others, and so, and what you develop over time is the ability to pivot in real time. So if you're coming across and you see the reaction, which is, again, empathy and it's not the reaction you're looking for, then you can pivot a little bit.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And that creates that ability to connect, no matter what's going on, because you may come in pretty hot and you get the oh crap, I'm coming in really hot, and then you back it down and then you just shift a little bit and then you get a different reaction and that all happens in real time. The ability to do that, quite frankly, it's just not our best thing, because that's pretty good honed emotional awareness and emotional management. And that takes, it's a skill you can learn, it takes practice, it takes coaching, it takes follow-up, it takes reflection. It takes it. It's a skill you can learn, it takes practice, it takes coaching, it takes follow up, it takes reflection, it takes application.
Speaker 2:But over time, man, I mean what a skill that is Right experiences I'm having, and what I mean by that is like the relationships, the caliber of people that are in my life, the work that I get to do, the places I get, or like the things I get invited to collaborate on or contribute to Credentially. I have no business doing those things, but because I like to connect with people and I figured out and I full disclosure it's not because I'm this super sweet guy, I was highly manipulative. So I learned how to manipulate my behavior to get what I wanted from people and I used that in a very selfish, self-destructive way for a lot of years. It's like the same cues that I did, that I used for manipulating people that I can see now, pay attention to now to understand like, oh, this is how I'm affecting them or this is what they value. So maybe I should have just tweak whatever I need to tweak and I think it's helped people. Well, I say help, maybe the appropriate word is tricked people into thinking I have something to offer.
Speaker 1:Well, I'm going to totally challenge what you just said. I think you're right where you need to be, and the people that you're coming into contact with now are the people that you needed to meet.
Speaker 2:Agreed Right.
Speaker 1:And so this is just the next step in your evolution as a consultant, as somebody who's helping a lot of people. It's evolving into what it needs to be, and you use everything that you have in the current moment, of all the stuff that brought you up to that moment.
Speaker 1:So you're right where you need to be and you're meeting the people that you need to meet, and I always talk to people that are doing what you're doing and say thank God, you're doing this, the need is great. I was working for the Corps of Engineers and this general said son, you've found yourself now in a target-rich environment Emotional intelligence for these engineer and military guys, and so we've got a target rich environment. There's no competition here.
Speaker 2:None.
Speaker 1:The need is great and I'm so happy that you're doing what you're doing, because you're making the industry better. Yeah, by doing what you're doing.
Speaker 2:Thank you, brent, I appreciate that and agree and agree. It's interesting you said the need is so great because there are some folks that I've come across that are in the same business as us and they're kind of standoffish and guard him like bro, for real, I cannot handle, I don't want all the business. Yeah, and I, you cannot handle all the business, I cannot handle all the business. So why are we like, if you don't want to play, it's cool, but like we could really do something awesome if we just had a discussion about a point, something. But they treat it anyways.
Speaker 1:it's a mentality, right mentality right, scarcity, yeah, scarcity or abundance. I'm really an abundant thinker and I've always been, and I give a lot of stuff away. Yeah, well, mainly sometimes because I'm just a poor businessman, but most of the time it's just because I want to help people. Yes, and they'll say, can you help me with this? And I'll say, yeah, what do you need?
Speaker 1:And I'll give you what you need. If I can give it to you for nothing, I'll give it to you for nothing. That doesn't bother me at all. The money will come. The money will come whenever it needs to come.
Speaker 2:Yeah, the money's easy, brent, and I've discovered, like worst comes to worst, I can sell pictures of my feet online, of my feet online, like money's easy. Yeah, exactly, that's not a problem, but that may not be the best way to serve the industry right now. That's what I'm trying to crack. Oh, my goodness. Okay, so you mentioned Lean. We've kind of thrown that out there. You got to see it in its inception and I've seen some recent stuff on LinkedIn lately about the human side of lean. What is that?
Speaker 1:Well, we're doing a session Friday at the local lean thing here in Atlanta and it's all about the. I call it the forgotten pillar. It's the respect for people, continual improvement, respect for people. And if you look at, words, don't they?
Speaker 2:Doesn't that mean, they're doing it?
Speaker 1:It kills me because people think of lean as a process. It is so not a process. It's a total philosophy culture, and it takes decades to build that culture, that lean culture. And people want the quick fix. And, oh, let's just do pool planning. And we really won't do pool planning. We'll just take our P6 and make sticky notes out of it and put it on the wall. That's lean, right? No, not really. And they don't listen to their trades. They don't even do the big room the way it should be done. Everybody should be in that room and everybody should be having input into that process. And the guys with tools in their hands here's the other thing I always say is those are the only guys who are creating value on that project. And they want to argue with me. No, I'm a project manager, I create value. No, you don't. I'm sorry the value creators. We're talking about the respect for the people with tools in their hands that are creating the value and asking for their input.
Speaker 1:And then again, that all comes down to emotional intelligence of things like empathy and self-awareness, and how you show up in an emotional way in those pool planning sessions and in that environment where lean is what you're trying to achieve. And if you've got a Toyota in fact there was this big lean like a manufacturing lean thing 90% of their sessions were on the people stuff. What does that tell you? It isn't a process. It isn't about sticky notes. It isn't about improving a process just so we'll get a couple extra dollars at the end of it. It's a philosophy that everybody has input into that process. Everybody is valued, everybody is respected. And then you start. When you get that in place, then the magic starts to happen. Yeah, totally.
Speaker 2:yeah, a hundred percent. That's the one contributing factor that I can put my finger on is like the rate of adoption or growth is relative to that project leader's depth of humility. Yeah, if they can disengage from I gotta get the job done to maybe employ some facilitator skills, yeah, they'll have a better pull plan. If they can't, if they don't have the facilitation skill, they're going to translate the P6 schedule on the sticky notes and put on the one. Waste everybody's time. Yeah, so like it has to happen.
Speaker 2:Now what's interesting is you've seen it. I've been able to go all over the country and just see over and over again where people are attempting to do the thing in the most clinical way and completely ignoring and I think they don't know, completely ignoring the social element, the social value of the different tools that they're trying to use. And so why do you think that is so pervasive in our industry? That folks discount Maybe they're ignorant, they don't know keeps us from realizing. Rather, it helps us sanitize out all the human, social elements of this philosophy. What do you think of?
Speaker 1:it. I think it's the pressure of executing the work I mean that's the base on every project, you get the work done.
Speaker 1:Well, the idea of going slow to go fast, creating that uninterrupted workflow, it's just a foreign concept. It doesn't make any sense, right yeah, and it doesn't. If you just say, hey, we need to slow down, they're going no, and we get this great uninterrupted workflow. For this section of work we're going to finish early. But it's hard to wrap your head around because if there's any work that could be executed and put in place, you just go do it To hell. With sequence of work and who you're hog-tying and any of that.
Speaker 1:It's just oh, we got a bunch of crap on the floor, let's get it up in the air, okay, well, but why don't we talk to the people before the work and the people after the work and get this flow of work? No, and again, they've got a schedule. They've got probably a P6 or some kind of automated kind of schedule and they say we're just going to go with the schedule. Well've got probably a P6 or some kind of automated kind of schedule and they say we're just going to go with the schedule. Well, I found that if you really dig into and really do some good pool planning, you know milestone pools and then, phase pools.
Speaker 1:You're going to cut a bunch of work out of that six schedule because they padded the crap out of it. And, believe me, you call some trade partner and you say how long is it going to take to do this? What are they going to tell you? They're pulling the number out of their butt anyway, so they're going to pad that. So you've got all this padded numbers. The real numbers are when you do the actual pull planning get everybody involved, get everybody's input. That's where the real numbers start. And when you do that you're going to probably take. We found that like from face pull to six-week look ahead, you're going to cut out at least 10 or 20 percent. Easy, Just from people talking to each other.
Speaker 2:If you create the conditions for people to communicate, you're spot on Right, because if there's no, when that dialogue is absent it's going to be what it's always been.
Speaker 1:Yeah, exactly yeah, I think you're spot on. That's that's the key to that is getting people comfortable with each other, trusting each other, saying, hey, that's a bunch of crap, I need two days to do this, or I can do that in a day and a half, whereas if they could do it in a day and a half but they have three days and they don't trust you, they're just going to keep their mouth shut and say, yeah, so that's the thing.
Speaker 2:You just nailed it. Like when I'm coaching folks on doing it, I'm like look, the first one, your first pull plan, is going to suck. It's going to be clumsy, it's going to be clunky, it's going to be uncomfortable. People are not going to make real commitments, people are going to squirm. And you're going to hear about all the problems. Why the hell would we want to do that? Well, because you're going to find out about the problems before they impact production, because you're planning before you start to work, and they're going to surface issues.
Speaker 2:If you listen, write it down. Don't bark back, don't accuse them of making excuses. They're telling you what they need to be successful. You're the GC. You have the greater influence and resources and relationships than they do, so you can help make it better. Listen and they'll tell you more.
Speaker 2:Some people going to overcommit yeah, because that's their nature. Some people sandbag, because that's my nature. Yeah, and over time, through the repetition, they start building the relationship and the trust to say, jess, you're always sandbagging. You always say you need two weeks Like for real. Well, you know. And so it starts calibrating itself, but not if whoever's running it, if they cannot, if they fail to create the conditions for people to communicate, meaning they listen more than they talk they're not going to get there.
Speaker 2:Which brings us again back to this connection thing that you're out there making happen, helping people with. I wonder, what do you think? Like most of our projects in construction, they're six to 18 months long. I'm sure there's these big mega data centers or big giant billion dollar developments, but every it's never the same group of people, even on those big billion dollar, like people, trades switching it out, right. So the fact that the project duration is there's a finite end to it, I think because of that, we believe that it's okay to treat people like we're never going to see them again after this project, but the fact is we will, yeah. And so because of the bookends of start the project, finish the project, I feel like that contributes heavily to the lack of connection in our industry. What do you think?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think it's true and they'll. They use it as an excuse, especially for shorter projects. But I have a chapter in my book the people profit connection on to high performing teams Well, one of the things I suggested there. And boy, talk about pushback. I say why don't we get literally everybody, every trade partner, the GC, every vendor, every owner's rep, all the designers, all the end users, and all go on a resort for a two-week retreat and get to know each other and get to trust each other and have communication with each other. And everybody does some evaluations and they get individual coaches to work on some areas of their life that they need to work on.
Speaker 1:And and I always get that's insane, that's crazy. I'd say why is it so crazy? Well, who's going to pay for that? And I said, well, man, if you did that on every project, you'd save that times 10 probably for all the crap you're going to, you're going to avoid. So then I say, okay, if you can't do two weeks, do a week. If you can't do a week, do a weekend. If you can't do a weekend, do half days, the first month of the project, but you can find the time to make those human connections and get that trust and those relationships down to where, when you've got problems, everybody jumps in and everybody helps everybody else.
Speaker 2:Yes, so valuable, yeah, and I mean, you know that don't make sense. Why don't we just keep fighting and screaming and yelling at each other?
Speaker 1:Yeah, and we've done that for decades. And that's the other thing is, I have GCs. They'll tell me like man, I can't trust this trade partner. He just keeps giving me crap numbers and he's padding his numbers and I say, why do you think he does that? I don't know, maybe it's because you've beaten the crap out of him for decades and he's been conditioned to give you some numbers that he can have a little play with. Yes, that's why he's not giving you the real numbers. It's your fault, it's not his fault, right, 100%.
Speaker 2:I love that you bring that up because it brings up a real funky situation, because there are there's a growing number and it's growing fast, just not fast enough but there's a growing number of superintendents, project executives, pms on the GC side that have seen the light. They're showing appreciation for people, they're listening. They're not big softy pushovers, they're just not porcupine out all the time, right? And so now what I see them get frustrated is they get another trade and that trade is like you described there Whoa, there's a lot of fluff, they're very standoffish, they won't make a commitment, and so what I try to explain to them is dude, you got to understand like these trade contractors work for GCs dozens and dozens of GCs every year, and you are the exception. Yeah, the majority of the GCs out there treat people like garbage and so, because you're a GC, they expect you to treat them the same way. That's not your fault, but they do have some trauma, some baggage that they're carrying. Yeah, because of all the dirt bags that they have to work.
Speaker 2:And how do I know? Because I live that life right, like I remember, like when I first worked, the first superintendent didn't say hey, man, we're to do this pull plan thing. I need to know, like, how long is it going to take you to do your tasks. I'm like what do you mean? How long can I have your schedule? No, no, like for real. Can you break it up? And I'm like what do you want from me, dude? What the hell's wrong with you? I did it the most foreign thing in the world. I was like what the hell? And then I was like, oh, and then of course, it wasn't easy. I think we're three weeks into the system on this project and they abandoned it. So we got to do it the way we always did it. I was comfortable again, yeah, but it took.
Speaker 1:it's so. It's so true, and it takes a little bit of time to develop that trust that you're not the typical GC that's going to hold their feet to the fire or punish them in some way for a number that's been given to them. But once that barrier is broken, man, it's things to start opening up wide open, and then it builds on itself.
Speaker 2:Yes, it's amazing. It's amazing In my head, the human side of Lean was a book. Is that true?
Speaker 1:I don't know If it is, I need to read it.
Speaker 2:Oh, okay, good. What I found out is that you've written multiple books and I couldn't even count. How many books have you produced?
Speaker 1:I've written eight books so far, but also I couldn't find a good publisher that I liked. I had a couple interested and they wanted 95% and I said, wait a minute, 95% so I get 5%. So I started my own publishing company. So I have a publishing company and we publish people's books and for people that are having trouble getting their books out, we help them get their books out. So I publish through my own publishing company and those are on my website. I've turned People Profit Connection into an audio book. There's eBooks yeah, check them out. I've even published a Big Mama's Country Cookbook.
Speaker 2:I saw that I was like maybe I'm on the wrong website. I was like maybe I'm on the wrong website.
Speaker 1:When my grandmother died she had this big recipe box and I've got three brothers and they said what are we going to do with this? I said I'll take it. So I took it and it sat in a cupboard for years and I pulled it out and it was like not only were they great recipes but they're like family history, because the dishes we would serve at family reunions and funerals and things like that. So I wrote this book and did a little bit of family history and I have kind of like I have a bunch of characters on my mom's side of my family, so I put them in there. And then I didn't have quite enough recipes. So I solicited all my cousins, aunts and uncles and said give me all your favorite recipes. So this is all Southern cooking biscuits and gumbo and mostly.
Speaker 1:Alabama, Gulf Coast kind of cooking and fried chicken and collard greens and cornbread and all those really good things. So that's what's in the book. And it's so weird because we look at our sales month to month for all the books that we publish and for some reason the last month Big Mama's Country Cookbook has sold 95 copies in the last month.
Speaker 1:We don't even know who's buying them. And I asked all my cousins I said are you guys buying these books for gifts or something? They go no, we don't know what's going on, so I don't know who's buying Big Mama's Country.
Speaker 2:Cookbook, but it's our best-selling book this last month. Well, we're going to make sure we have a link in the show notes so that we can keep selling them Big Mama's Cookbook and maybe sometime in the future you can tell me the secret, because one I do not enjoy. Rather, I love that I got a couple of books out there, yeah you got some I've read your books.
Speaker 2:Thank you, I love your books. Oh my God, that's amazing. Thanks for telling me. The point of the books is to help just one human being, and I've gotten back that it's helpful to. So that was the whole point. That's amazing. It's beautiful. It's beautiful. It's fulfilling All. That said, I absolutely hate all the work it takes to produce a book, and I'm talking. I'm not talking about, like, the creative process and the idea, and not that it's what size font do you want to use? What do you want on the spine? What color? Where do you want that? Like all of that.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Oh my goodness, absolute. I whine about it all the time.
Speaker 1:It's a pain. It's a pain. And when I published my own books, people kept asking me hey, will you publish my book? And I'd say, hell, no, it's a pain in the ass, it is so hard. You can't imagine how hard this is. But then my wife wrote her first novel and she said, well, you published my book. And I said, of course, honey, I'll publish your book. So then I had the idea okay, I'm not going to make a million bucks on this, but I can make a little money and help people get their books out. We've streamlined that whole process, so that was the whole idea behind that.
Speaker 1:I think we just published our 65th book, wow, okay.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:So we're just helping people get their books out.
Speaker 2:Okay, well damn, which is an interesting mix, right? Maybe that recipe is in Big Mama's cookbook. You started off as an engineer.
Speaker 1:Yeah, recipes in big mama's cookbook.
Speaker 2:He started off as an engineer, yeah. Then you got into this emotional intelligence thing back in 2000, when I don't think yeah, were you the only one using combining those two words no emotional intelligence is from back in the 80s and be able that.
Speaker 1:This guy named gardner looked at different intelligences but it was made popular by Daniel Goldman who wrote a book in 1995 called Emotional Intelligence why it Matters More Than IQ, and so that kind of kicked off the big part of it. But my mentor, who I learned all the emotional intelligence stuff from, she was doing that work in the 80s at American Express, so she was a true pioneer in the emotional intelligence world. So I just saw the value, saw the need, said man, this is it, this is what I need to be doing to help this industry.
Speaker 1:So, that's what started that whole deal.
Speaker 2:Okay, so engineer emotional intelligence, which that's an amazing connection, and you know why. Everybody out there knows why. To author to now shoot. What do we call it? Publisher, publisher, publisher. What do you think?
Speaker 1:And I'm sure the list goes on right, because I mean, wait, there's one other thing I got to bring up because you're in San Antonio, right yeah? Oh yeah, all right. So I quit for a while and became a full-time actor, oh yeah. So I and I wrote a bunch of plays and acted a bunch. I co-founded in san antonio the magic theater.
Speaker 2:It's a children's theater there no, I know, the magic theater did, did you really?
Speaker 1:Yeah. I co-founded it with Richard Rosen and I was doing those shows there when I was working on the Brook Army Medical Center. I was the interstitial space coordinator on that project. I was doing theater at night and Richard and I co-founded the magic theater I did a lot of stand-up comedy and I co-founded the Magic Theater, yeah, and I did a lot of stand-up comedy and I did some low-budget movies and I had a small role on the old TV show In the Heat of the Night.
Speaker 2:No way.
Speaker 1:Oh, that is awesome yeah, I played a redneck auto mechanic drug dealer on In the Heat of the Night. That's so good.
Speaker 2:All right, brent, don't tell anybody. But when I started my company, like not having a real job anymore, I said, man, in five years I think I'll be in a situation where I'll have enough time to go and get involved in community theater Because I've always been a fan of musicals. Don't tell, but it's a secret. I love music not all musicals but I can just get into musicals. Don't tell, but it's a secret. I love music not all musicals, but I can just get into musicals. And it's always, since elementary school, being on stage and performing has been the thing that it's like. I can't stop thinking about it. But it's don't do. That's dumb, that's a waste of time and right like man it is you gotta do it right, Like man, you got to do it yeah.
Speaker 1:You've got to do it. Oh, I'm telling you, it'll fulfill you in so many ways, but it'll make you a better presenter, facilitator, speaker, all those things. And so again, remember I talked about using all the talents to this point in whatever your career or your life is. That's just going to give you more skills. Man, do it sooner rather than later. And I know you've got to make money. I get it. But, man, I'm telling you, I did that for three years and tried to make a living at it. It's a tough way to make a living, but you don't need to make a living at it.
Speaker 2:You can just do it for fun. Exactly, I could sell pictures of my feet and act.
Speaker 1:There you go, you got it.
Speaker 2:Okay, so I think you answered this, but I just want to make sure, because the L&M family out there I remember, if I think back five years ago, I would hear like a podcast. That's when I started listening to podcasts and all this stuff yeah, but they are in a different, those human beings are different. That experience is not accessible to me. I never said it that way, but that was kind of my thinking. Looking back, it's absolutely accessible, totally. And so, with your path again engineer, actor, publisher, emotional intelligence pioneer. Actor, publisher, emotional intelligence pioneer what are the ingredients or the threads that human beings have access to that you are able to weave together to have the experience that you're having and the impact that you're having?
Speaker 1:I think it boils down to two things. One is curiosity Again, so when people that are acting differently than you and you don't understand it, be curious about it instead of judgmental about it. And the other is I've always been a lifelong learner. I can't get enough of learning new things, reading new books. I probably read 30 or 40 books a year, easy. I'm constantly reading and trying to learn new things, and I think what that does is you get like all these real weird just desperate weird things that are floating around here. They coalesce into one thing. So the acting stuff led to.
Speaker 1:I do a lot of work with improv and there's this group called the Applied Improv Network, so we take improv and apply it to learning and leadership and connection and communication and all those things. So a lot of the stuff in my courses and online or live, they're improv exercises, they're acting exercises, you see. So and I don't tell them that it's that so I've taken this really weird thing over here and this cool thing here and kind of slapped them together and it creates this new thing. That's even better. But in order to bring those really weird sort of things that don't seem to belong together, you've got to know those things. So you've got to learn a bunch of new things, and then it just comes together and it happens. It's so cool to see that process, right.
Speaker 2:So many things Amazing, like curiosity and lifelong learning. There's a curiosity, you pursue it, you learn more about it and it creates the stuff to connect at some point in the future. It's just the magic. So folks be curious, rather don't be. Stay curious and then learn about it. Spend some time learning about whatever that curiosity is. It may not pay off today, rather, count on it not paying off today, but as you go into the future, the right circumstances, the magic juju comes together and you'll be able to serve people to a greater degree. I love that. I stole the yes and exercise because I took an improv course also, which was awesome. I did nine weeks, but not as serious as you. It was just a thing that I wanted to do. I've still. I've taken that no, yes, but yes, and it's part of several of the workshops that I do to help people just become aware of the simple tweak in words that if we're not doing it on purpose, we could be causing disconnection with other people, you bet.
Speaker 1:I do a lot, we do, yes, and as part of my innovation and creativity, yes, yes, yeah, we do. Yeah, it's so cool, and think of everybody walked into the big room with curiosity oh yeah, instead of like why am I here? This is a waste of time. I've been doing it this way for 30 years. Lean's nothing new. Blah, blah, blah. What if they just came in curious? What an experience. That would be right.
Speaker 2:It would be, of the things that they could accomplish and learn together would be monumental. I think, yeah, 100%, mr Brent. This has been amazing and I know maybe I don't know if this is a threat, it might be, but I think I need to talk to you some more. There's a lot of things that I know I can glean from you for sure, and I would love it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I would love it man.
Speaker 2:Where do people go? I'm warming you up because I'm going to ask you the finale grand finale question, because I'm going to ask you the finale grand finale question when do people go to find you and what should they like?
Speaker 1:What's the off the menu?
Speaker 2:super secret special service that you can help them with.
Speaker 1:Okay, wow, so go to brentdarnellcom, connect with me on LinkedIn. I would love to connect with you on LinkedIn, but go to brentdarnellcom. That's my website and there's some cool stuff there. I mean, you can check out the online courses. There's some free stuff you can access just to see if you think it's something you'd want to do. But also, if you go to the online store, there's an emotional intelligence test. These are all free. There's a nutrition survey that tells us how your body's working.
Speaker 1:And see those correlate with each other so you can look at your emotional profile, your physical profile, and then there's something called the body battery inventory as well. It measures stressors versus recovery and then it gives you a number. So if your number's negative, you either have to build in more recovery or you have to reduce your stress. Well, in this industry, we always say, okay, reduce stress where you can, but it's a stressful industry, so we opt into let's build in more recovery throughout our day, and there's tons of recovery activities that you can work on and do, and it gives you a bunch of stuff. In this body battery inventory, you can even create a plan, because you know you're going to be stressed. There's things that are going to stress you like a meeting a commute a person.
Speaker 1:So create a plan right now to build in something to recover from that stress, either before, during or after that event.
Speaker 2:All right, folks, you heard there's three things. You need to go check out, download, do the assessment, because it'll help you, duh, and then, when you want more, hit up Mr Brent.
Speaker 1:So, again, if they need more, if I want more of this, I'll say what do you need? And if I can give it to you, I'll give it to you. And even like the online courses, we're still looking, we're still in the beta test, we're moving out of the beta test, but if somebody wants to just check them out, I can give them some access. Just let me know what you want and I'll give you access to these online courses. Check them out and give me your feedback.
Speaker 1:I'll let you access those for free or really cheap, or tell me what you want and I'll do my best to give it to you 10, 4,.
Speaker 2:Amazing, Very generous of you, my friend, thank you. So you're ready for the grand closer? I'm ready, all right. So clearly, like folks, if you missed it, brent's a pretty amazing human being. You've done a lot to contribute to transform an industry. Your path of personal growth and contribution are amazing, and so I think your question, your answer to this question, is going to be pretty heavy. So here's the question. Your question, your answer to this question is going to be pretty heavy. So here's the question.
Speaker 1:What is the promise you are intended to be? The promise I am intended to be Wow, that's pretty, pretty deep. I've been put on this earth to help as many people as I can. That promise really manifests itself in a lot of different ways. This promise has evolved. I think I was pretty selfish, pretty much of a jerk initially. So this is a process for me and a self-healing process. But then I see what this work can do and be because I've experienced it. So I want other people to help, that I can help experience the same transformation. And not that I'm saying everybody's a jerk. I'm saying, no matter where you are, you can be better, and I've just tried to develop some good tools to help people be the best version of themselves that they can be. That's what I'm here for.
Speaker 2:Amazing.
Speaker 1:I knew it.
Speaker 2:I knew it was going to be awesome. Jeez, oh my goodness.
Speaker 1:Did you have fun? Oh man, this was a blast. I would love to do this again and I'm threatening to come to LCI, to Congress, so that we can go hang out and maybe go grab a meal together or something.
Speaker 2:Weren't you speaking somewhere at the same time?
Speaker 1:No, not when. Maybe those two or three weeks. It's October, right.
Speaker 2:It's October, the week of the 21st.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I am doing some speaking those weeks, but I'm going to try to see if I can squeeze that in somehow.
Speaker 2:Oh man, that would be a yes. I'm going to try to see if I can squeeze that in somehow.
Speaker 1:Oh man, that would be a yes, and I'd love to also hang out with Jen as well.
Speaker 2:Yeah, she's the queen.
Speaker 1:Oh, she's so great I saw her at AGC and we need to do some more stuff together.
Speaker 2:Definitely. Thank you for sticking it out all the way to the end. I know you got a whole lot of stuff going on and, in appreciation for the gift of time that you have given this episode, I want to offer you a free PDF of my book Becoming the Promise You're Intended to Be. The link for that bad boy is down in the show notes. Hit it. You don't even have to give me your email address. There's a link in there. You just click that and you can download the PDF. And if you share it with somebody that you know who might feel stuck or be caught up in self-destructive behaviors, that would be the ultimate you sharing. That increases the likelihood that it's going to help one more person. And if it does help one more person, then you're contributing to me becoming the promise I am intended to be Be kind to yourself, be cool, and we'll talk at you next time.