Learnings and Missteps
The Learnings and Missteps Podcast is about unconventional roads to success and the life lessons learned along the way.
You will find a library of interviews packed with actionable take aways that you can apply as you progress on your career path.
Through these interviews you will learn about the buttons you can push to be a better leader, launch a business, and build your influence.
Find yourself in their stories and know that your path is still ahead of you.
Learnings and Missteps
The Nomadic Entrepreneur: Heather Jones on Transforming the Construction Industry
In this episode of the Learnings and Missteps podcast, Jesse revisits a conversation with Heather Jones of Archer Estimation and Consulting. Heather shares her insights on battling estimator burnout and stress, her journey to starting a business with her husband, Jake, and their lifestyle as digital nomads. They discuss the impact of traveling on reducing work stress, the importance of learning the local language, and how they manage their business on the go. Heather emphasizes the need for personal growth to better serve others and hints at unique approaches to improving the construction industry.
00:00 Introduction
01:01 Meet Ms. Heather Jones
02:47 The Journey to Lima, Peru
05:13 Starting Archer Estimation and Consulting
06:34 Becoming Digital Nomads
08:49 Learning and Adapting Abroad
12:33 Tips for Traveling and Language Barriers
12:55 Shoutout and Time Management Workshop
15:46 Stress and Burnout in Estimating
17:06 Balancing Work and Travel
18:29 Roles and Responsibilities in the Business
22:48 Challenges in the Estimating Industry
32:25 Incentive Structures and Project Performance
34:33 Starting a Business: The Cheat Code
36:35 The Importance of Personal Touch in Business
43:40 Balancing Work and Personal Life
56:07 The Ripple Effect of Positive Change
01:02:26 Conclusion and Final Thoughts
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I'm going to do my best to communicate with you with what I have. People are very receptive to that and they appreciate the fact that you took the time to learn anything.
Speaker 2:What is going on? L&m family Back again, and this is kind of like a refresh, a reboot, because the last time I had an amazing conversation with our guest it didn't process. There was some funky what do you call it? Technical glitch, which is like the perfect excuse for me to have another conversation with her and like it's an extra special treat because as long as I've known her she has spoken energy and excitement into my life. She just set like a really high target for me to aspire to and I ain't afraid I'm going to take it on.
Speaker 2:She's an intentional world changer. Bottom line. She changes the world of the people that she serves through her business and the people that she comes into contact with, cause I know I'm experiencing it now. Her name is Ms Heather Jones and she's like the big boss of Archer Estimation and Consulting.
Speaker 2:When I was kind of doing the little bit of research that I do, it was clear, or I wasn't surprised to find, that part of the reason the whole business started was because she wants to help combat the stress and burnout that estimators experience. Because she wants to help combat the stress and burnout that estimators experience, which she knows firsthand and I think we'll get some inside details on it about what it was that motivated her to start the business. I know that she wants to improve mental health and physical health for folks, but I also know that somebody very close to her in her life is an estimator, so maybe her insight came from that. And before we go any further, if this is your first time here, this is the Learnings and Missteps podcast, where real people just like you are sharing their gifts and talents to leave this world better than they found it. I'm Jesse, your selfish servant, and we about to get to know Ms Heather Jones.
Speaker 1:Ms Heather, how are you, I'm doing really well, thank you. How are you?
Speaker 2:Oh you know, having fun, feeling a little spent, but still like first world problems.
Speaker 1:It ain't that bad. Amen to that. I'm in the same boat.
Speaker 2:Yeah Well, one, thank you for coming back on after we spent that whole hour plus the last time together and having to do the redo. And two, I know you're not. You're feeling a little under the weather as well. So last year, what was about three weeks ago four weeks ago last time we talked?
Speaker 1:I think so. Yeah, I think it's been three, four weeks ago last time we talked. I think so. Yeah, I think it's been three four weeks.
Speaker 2:Okay, and are you in the same country today that you were three or four weeks ago? Yes, okay, okay. Where exactly is that? I know you said the Pacific.
Speaker 1:We are in Lima, Peru.
Speaker 2:Lima Peru Got it Got it. Why are you in Lima Peru? Lima Peru Got it Got it. Why are you?
Speaker 1:in Lima, peru, why not?
Speaker 1:Like the longer answer to that is we spent some time in Cusco and we knew we wanted to see other parts of Peru and Lima just was a great place to get some time by the ocean, because it's on the Pacific coast and I was craving the ocean. There is an incredible food scene here. The restaurants are amazing and you can get tons of really good produce and just food to even cook at home. And we said you know, there's not like a ton of touristy things to do in Lima, but it'll be a great place to just hang out for a few weeks, relax and appreciate the ocean.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and so I know folks out there probably thinking like man, what an amazing vacation. But this isn't a vacation, this is like a lifestyle deal for you yeah, we slow travel. Yes, and so you're making the next jump. Where are you headed next, or what's next on the plan?
Speaker 1:So I think the next stop on the plan is actually going to be a new continent. We already had some plans to meet up with friends in the fall of this year in Europe, and so we're going to go take a vacation, hang out with some friends and then not 100% certain where we're going from there.
Speaker 2:Okay, so you just got the next step outline going to Europe, going to hang out, and so you just got the next step outline going to Europe going to hang out, and then when you get there, you'll decide where the next stop is.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we started out with like a four-year itinerary, and six months in we realized it's not. We're not even going to come close to sticking to it. We'd already made two changes by then, because we would either find out about a new place that someone said, oh, you should really check this out. Or we would say, oh well, there's this thing going on in this city or country that we really want to experience, so let's go there next. And so we just kind of threw the itinerary out the window a little bit, and now it's just a wish list.
Speaker 2:Oh so it's just a list. We might go here, we might go there, but it list. Oh so it's just a list. We might go here, we might go there, but it leaves it sounds like it leaves a lot of room for like adventure and exploration, to just say, okay, well, let's go check that one out.
Speaker 1:That's exactly it.
Speaker 2:Oh my, okay, so I know you started Archer Estimation and Consulting. Did you start that business so that you can bounce around all over the globe?
Speaker 1:Did we start it for that reason? No, is that a huge perk?
Speaker 2:Yes, Okay, so I know a little bit of the history, which you know because I got to interview too long ago. But business idea came from a real pain that you got to observe or see firsthand and opportunities to like help other people. There was a work thing that he was going through and it just kind of like well, why don't we just do this? And then you started doing that. And then, if we were to map it out, how long was it between starting the business and then becoming nomads?
Speaker 1:We officially started the business in October of 23, but we didn't actually begin like be active in it until December of 23. So December of 23, and we left on our nomad journey the first week of September of 2024.
Speaker 2:Oh, wow, okay. So it was a year from actually starting the business. So what were the signals? What were the signs that y'all saw that you responded to, that said, hey, let's do this digital nomad thing.
Speaker 1:So we both always have wanted to live abroad, and there were a couple of times in the past that we made attempts at perhaps getting jobs overseas or something like that, but life and responsibilities just never quite let it happen. And so once we were free of all those responsibilities, the last one was our last dog, who we adored. We adored all of them, but he was the last one we had. He died in September of 23. And we started the business shortly thereafter and we just kind of looked at each other and said, wait a minute, there's nothing stopping us. Now, like, we're location independent, we have our own business, we can actually do this. And so we took some time to get the business up and running properly and make sure everything was going to go well, and we had our feet under us and we said, okay, let's start planning. And then we sold all our stuff and left.
Speaker 2:I love that, Just the current. Now I know a little bit more about you, which it's like totally makes sense. I'm sure your family is like yeah, Heather's always been kind of that way. But I think it's amazing because for me, like the contrast is estimating right, which is a very logical data, low, like low risk, eliminate risk, identify risk, and so like that kind of mindset doesn't necessarily in my brain, doesn't jive with like hell, yeah, let's go travel the world and like just do this thing. And so y'all have been bouncing around for a while. What have you learned about yourself as a result of doing this traveling around? I think you've focused on South America lately and sounds like you're headed beyond that.
Speaker 1:What? That's a great question. A lot, a whole lot. So you talk about logic and avoiding risk and identifying risk in the estimating field. I do a lot of that in my own life. I'm pretty risk averse, and always have been. So there was a lot of analysis before we kind of jumped off this ledge.
Speaker 1:So as someone who's very type A, who's logical, who does like a cost benefit analysis and a risk analysis on everything I do, number one, I've learned I have to go with the flow a little more. I'd already like started to learn that through you know the previous years of just what happened in life, but this has really reinforced it. I need to let go of control. I cannot control everything.
Speaker 2:And.
Speaker 1:I really like discomfort.
Speaker 2:Ah, and you didn't think you liked it before.
Speaker 1:I felt like I would, but I wasn't sure, because you know you go somewhere where they speak a different language and, yes, we spoke a little bit of Spanish and we're getting a whole lot better, but it's still.
Speaker 1:You're in a situation where you cannot effectively communicate everything you want to communicate and I've always been a pretty good communicator, so I knew that was going to be a huge challenge, and I've always been a pretty good communicator, so I knew that was going to be a huge challenge and so that's been really interesting.
Speaker 1:I knew I wanted to experience different cultures. I wanted to meet people, kind of where they live and people who are different and who've maybe never been to the US or never really traveled and all they know is their home, and learn about them and their lives and what their country is like. And, of course, within each country, every region is different and so, like, for example, cusco, we learned about the Quechua language and how that sort of integrates with their history and how it influences the Spanish they speak and different things like that. So I knew I would be comfortable with that, but I wasn't sure how I would do with the inability to communicate as effectively as I'm used to, but that's helping me learn to go with the flow and, as they say, be more tranquilo, because I'm a little tightly wound and it wouldn't hurt me to be less so.
Speaker 2:I love that. It's interesting because you've said to me that you're a recovering perfectionist and I get it right Like same, which doesn't align with like, yeah, let's go travel the world and we had an itinerary and now we don't. We're just kind of going to figure it out. That's not a judgment, I think it's. I think what's exciting about that is it's a signal that you're expanding your comfort zone, right, like staying on the edge of it. And then you I mean that's the thing right Is, when people stay on the edge of their comfort zone, we find out that it's not as horrible as we thought and, more importantly, that we can handle this. And it's like, oh, what else could I handle? What else could I do? What else could I learn?
Speaker 2:You know I love that you talk about like you're in a country where the first language is Spanish or some variation of it. Your first language is English, but you're still able to communicate. And the reason that stands out to me is because you know, in construction and get it, I hear it a bunch how well it. Just, you know we can't communicate with the guys because they don't speak English very well. I'm like you. We could, absolutely. I know I can. Now I've learned a lot of Spanish, but, like you can, like, it's easy to dismiss it and say well, it's because of them. And in this case you're them Right, you're the ones that aren't speaking the native, like if they're going to go to a country where they don't speak their language and maybe gallivant around the globe for a year or two, what pointers do you have for them? And before we go any further, we're going to do the LNM family member shout out.
Speaker 2:And this one goes to my brother, lance Furuyama, my brother from LinkedIn. He sent this note. He says I was fortunate enough to join the second session of the time management workshop and it changed the way that I look at my calendar. For those of you that know me, it looks like I'm a master of organization and planning. What I didn't realize is that I wasn't allowing any time in my calendar for myself or the things that I want to do. I promise you that it is worth your time and attention. And Mr Lance is talking about the Time Mastery Workshop, which has now been rebranded and it is the self first time mastery framework Super, super fancy. The link will be down there in the show notes and for everybody else you already know I love the attention, I love the comments, I love the shares, the stars, all of the things it gives me an opportunity to shout you out in a future podcast episode.
Speaker 1:Be humble.
Speaker 2:Ooh humble. Why humble?
Speaker 1:Because one of the first phrases that we learned was I'm sorry, I only speak a little Spanish. Now that phrase has changed to I'm sorry. Our Spanish is limited, and so we always start our interactions with that, like we immediately say we're sorry, we don't speak your language. Can you help us?
Speaker 2:And I think that goes a long way and every place I've ever been.
Speaker 1:I've been to several countries now where it was either Spanish, german, portuguese. I always learn a few words Hello, thank you. Please have a nice day. Where's the bathroom? You know basics, but I learned something and I always start with that, and I've found that, as long as you start with the attitude of I'm the person who doesn't speak the language, this is. I'm coming into another country and I don't expect you to speak my language. I'm going to do my best to communicate with you with what I have. People are very receptive to that and they appreciate the fact that you took the time to learn anything and so like especially if you're just vacationing or you're there for a short time just learn enough to show respect.
Speaker 2:Yeah, oh, I love it Like it's just that. Be humble, show some respect, make a damn effort to learn their language and just own it. I can go off and complain about the situation here in the States right out on the job site, where, but I'm not gonna. We're gonna focus on you. So now I know that the main, I'll say, motivation behind your business is to like eliminate or minimize the stress and burnout that estimators are going through and estimators out there. I really can't think of an estimator that I know that isn't wound tight and like on the edge, because there they. There's a lot, there's just a lot of stress and pressure. I don't understand it, cause I never done that work. The only thing that I can really relate to them is how what I think is like a superpower is the way that they bounce back from rejection because, right, like, what's a good hit rate? I have no idea, but I know a lot of the estimates that they produce don't win and so like.
Speaker 1:For people like me, that would be extremely difficult and then there's all kinds of other pressures and so how much has the traveling helped with the stress of estimating and the types of projects we choose? The traveling is actually really good because, especially for Jake, when he's had a day where he's just in an estimate all day long, it's a complicated one. You know he's into numbers up to his ears and problems with drawings and just different things. When the workday is over it's like okay, well, let's go walk along the Malecon by the Pacific Ocean, let's go take a walk. You know you get to get out and you see things you wouldn't necessarily normally see.
Speaker 1:It's not, I don't want to say, the same boring routine of being at home, but I think many people do get into a routine, and especially if you work from home, people don't always leave the house and they don't always put their phone or their computer away, oh, I know. And so they end up working, you know, oh, I'll get some dinner and then they'll sit there and after dinner they sit on the sofa and they work, and so having things to see that are not normal for us, and you know, we're in places a limited time so we only have so much time to see the place where we are. We have the option to sit on our duffs and not go out and see things, but that's not why we're doing this. So it's motivation to leave work at work and get out and shift your mind to something different and give your brain a break.
Speaker 2:Yeah, good, good. And so I know Jake is like he does the estimating right, Like that's the service that y'all provide, which I think means you do everything else.
Speaker 1:Am I reading that right? I do pretty much do everything else else. I handle all the back end stuff of the business. I handle a lot of the client interactions, initial kind of client contact, that sort of thing. I also do pipe tables and help our clients with admin tasks and help them organize their filing systems. Or we even have one client who I'm fortunate that they trust me to help with hiring and so I, you know, screen candidates and do initial interviews and things like that. And I also can help with building the back end of some estimating softwares, entering line items and things like that to help build the database. So the longer the business has been around, the more I'm getting into some of that work. I will not ever, I don't think estimate. That is not. Estimators are born. They're not trained.
Speaker 2:I'm not going to argue because it's a thing, like it is a special skill set, like I will say this I love, and specifically in the plumbing and mechanical space, right, I love understanding the number of labor units based on MCAA or whatever it's based on, per the quantity of the different sizes of materials and how that translates into labor. Like all of that I absolutely love it. But I could not do that work every damn day, like there is just I think you're right Like they're born, like that's a different, that's a different. Speaking that, no way I would lose my mind and I would get fired, like day two maybe, maybe day three, because I just know I'm getting nervous Just thinking about it.
Speaker 1:I've actually said the same thing to Jake. I've said I'm so glad I'm not an estimator. I don't think I'd last very long, cause my mouth will run away with me. I just I've never patient. It's not my best virtue. I have a lot more than I used to have, and I don't want to use the word stupidity I think that's the most common catch-all that people use but inattention to detail, sending out sloppy work because you didn't check it, forgetting something obvious, and then you know someone having to ask for it. We all make mistakes, but you know things like that that I see happening over and over in the industry. I would be like you know, I just couldn't keep my mouth shut. I'd have a smart email ready to go and I'd be done.
Speaker 2:Boom, bam, a templated email even Cause it happens, it happened all the dang time, and so, like this stress and burnout thing again, I don't think I'm making too big a leap, but my guess is that you got to see it in Jake.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, I sure did.
Speaker 2:Yeah. And then you said, okay, we need to do this. It's still going to be the estimator, but you're going to do it to help other companies, and so when you're talking to a prospect or a potential client, do they recognize the stress and burnout in their estimators, or is it more just a capacity thing and they need more people to do it?
Speaker 1:It depends on the size of the client. Actually, there are some that do recognize the estimators burnout and like the load that they're carrying. There are others who the owner's been doing the estimating and the business has grown to the point that they just don't have the bandwidth anymore. But they're not necessarily large enough to hire someone full time yet.
Speaker 1:And then there are other people who they have, their estimator or their small estimating team but when there are cycles of larger amounts of bids coming out and just heavier workloads, that they need some occasional help. But it's not enough to hire somebody else.
Speaker 2:Got it, got it, okay. And so where do you think, like your personal observation, where do you think the stress and burnout comes from? Like into the individual? Is it the company? What do you? What's the mix? I think it's the industry.
Speaker 1:I really do think it's the industry overall, because we've seen the shift. If you look 10 years ago to now probably closer to 15, but even 10, you could you would see, for example, the amount of time that an estimator is given to turn in an estimate, when they first get the bid package to when it's due, has shrunk significantly. You see projects going out with plans that aren't even 50% and they don't want a budget, they want an estimate. And then you know you've also got companies that there are now so many players and there's a bit, there's not a bit.
Speaker 1:There is kind of a race to the bottom. It's like the lowest number is where everybody goes and it's not necessarily okay. Well, who's going to do the best quality work? Who read the scope properly and included everything they need to and isn't going to change, order us, et cetera, et cetera. It's more just. You have each company has to bid more in order to win the work that they need, and so you've got estimators bidding way more jobs than they necessarily did in the past, because there's more competition and it's a lot more competitive and just kind of no-transcript in the beginning instead of the cheapest one.
Speaker 2:Yes, best value over best price. Yeah, I mean I recognize that it takes discipline for the contractor to select on best value over best price and I mean it'll be my argument till forever that choosing on best price I understand, like I totally understand that we got there's a budget and we got to stay within budget. I totally understand that we got there's a budget and we got to stay within budget. I totally understand that. Now I also know that there are some, we'll say, decision makers that will pick the lowest price because they know that their bonus is attached to the whatever the financial performance of the project is what. But what they fail to see, or rather what ignore, is when they're solely selecting on best price, assuming that best price also isn't best value, because it could be.
Speaker 2:But it's rare that the construction management team is going to be stressed the hell out managing these people that were ultra cheap. And there's a reason that they're cheap, right, it's almost never because they're super optimized and super efficient. It's almost always because they're operating a very basic system, meaning there's one boss that, like you said, doing the estimating and everything else, and they're hiring people as they can and so they don't have the overhead that some of the other companies have that could provide a better service, but there's a price associated with that and so it creates this thing, like you said, the race to the bottom Now you've already kind of hinted at. You help them kind of optimize some of their stuff. It's not just the estimating. You can help them get their estimating department geared up and ready to scale and expand and so forth. So what kind of strategies do you see, or maybe even offer up to them, in terms of filtering out the abusive situation of working with those contractors that are just dollar penny focused?
Speaker 1:It depends on the client, and I think that's something that is also overlooked in the industry. A lot is every business is different. Their goals are different, how they want to grow is different, the niches into which they want to grow are different, and so it's very tailored. If we have one client who's a small business, they're really just kind of getting their feet under them. They're growing at a good rate and there's, say, a builder, for example, that they're looking at a job for, but that builder has a reputation for being difficult in different ways that don't jive well with how our client's business is going right now. Or, you know, they don't have the capacity to deal with some of those issues. Then we would have a conversation with them about that and say, listen, here are some questions you need to ask. You know this is what the word on the street is, whatever and just be like, make sure you go into this with your eyes wide open and let's not just grab it because it's work.
Speaker 1:And that advice may be different for a different client, but we really do take the time to get to know our clients, get to know their business, their goals, how they run their crews and their projects, what they go after, where their challenges are and where their skills lie, where they excel, and just kind of try and take all of that into account with anything. They consult us on whether it's what estimating software would be best for them to implement or whether they need to hire a combination estimator project manager, or if they're at a point where they actually have enough work that they need both, or just so many things. It's hard to say because it really can be so specific to each business.
Speaker 2:Based on their goals and what their targets are, and so forth. So what are the pros and cons of this project? Manager, estimator, dual responsibility.
Speaker 1:That's a great question.
Speaker 1:Jake would be able to give you more detail than I can, but what I do know is that some of the pros are if you've got someone who estimates that job, when time comes to manage the project they know exactly what they put in the estimate, they know what they were thinking, they know how they looked at the drawings, they know what they thought might be missing and they're going to be able to bring all of that institutional knowledge onto the project management side of it to help things move smoothly, we hope.
Speaker 1:The advantage to having separates is, as long as you have a good pre-construction handoff protocol system, whatever you want to call it then your estimator downloads all of that to the project management team and the advantage to having separate is the estimator then goes back and focuses on more estimating and winning more work and the project manager goes out and is solely focused on all of those projects and making sure that they're running on time, on budget, that everything is going well. They're managing the client relationship. So in the beginning if you don't have too much of a workload for one person to do both, that can be a really advantageous hire for somebody because they get two jobs and then as they grow, they can split those duties and hire more people. Once you're at a capacity where you have the jobs, that's just a little bit too much for one person's plate. That's when you really need those positions to be separate and that's what I've seen in a hundred percent. My opinion.
Speaker 2:But yeah, no, I think you actually point out some really great points now. And the reason I'll tell you why I asked because the mechanical contractor used to work with way back in the day. I think you nailed it right. It was a matter of like how big, how much volume the company was bringing through, right In terms of revenue. I was with the company for 17 years. In those first few years, granted, they were a big company, but the business unit was growing in San Antonio, so it was, you know, it was a smaller business in the local market. Anyways, project managers were also estimate. They would estimate the projects that they would get and unfortunately it wasn't like you described where they did the estimation, so they understood the project. It was more that they were so infatuated and convinced that their estimate was right that they weren't willing to understand what was happening in the field in terms of installation and code and all these Does that make?
Speaker 1:sense? Yes, it does, and those are things I think people sometimes underestimate how important it is for many what are called office positions to understand what happens in the field. How does that pipe go in the ground? What is the process? What does everyone on that crew have to do in order to make it happen? And you know what are the ways those processes can be improved and what are the things that can go wrong in that ditch that an estimator who you know went and worked in an office his whole life and never saw the field, has no idea to anticipate.
Speaker 2:Right, right, yeah, that was one big thing, I think. And also they were heavily incentivized based on financial performance of the project, which I think is a great thing you know, it depends on where you're at could take some tweaking and adjustments think is a great thing. You know, it depends on where you're at, could take some tweaking and adjustments. But again, what I got to see and this was this is really, I think, a function of leadership is what I saw was these estimators, slash project managers pursuing and selling work that was garbage, like with garbage clients, like just to get their revenue target for the year or whatever it was.
Speaker 2:I'm like man, these, we, this is abusive. These people like we don't need to be working with these people. They're horrible, we're never going to make money with them. But they were hitting their revenue goal Right. So it was a. Again, I think the incentive structure benefited them to take on more work because their incentive was based on hitting their annual revenue target. It wasn't connected to project performance, and so when project performance started suffering, well, it was the field's fault, right, and so does that make sense?
Speaker 1:It does. And the phrase that comes to mind and I cannot remember where we first heard this, but we have picked it up and used it it was from a supervisor at one of Jake's old positions you can't eat revenue.
Speaker 2:Right, you can only eat larger baby. You got to make that money Revenue, don't do nothing. Eventually we got a different leader came in and switched it up Estimating department, project managers, managed projects and man, we started performing. We got better clients. It was a whole transformation. I don't know, that happens everywhere and maybe a big part of it was a transitional thing. We're like here where we could do that, and then we started getting up work where we couldn't do that anymore and I also, again, I think it was the incentive structure that lent itself to making short sighted decisions that didn't benefit the whole company. It was just one department. So there's some pointers there for you folks out there. You're an owner traveler. You've been in South America. What a year now.
Speaker 1:Pretty close. I think at the end of this month it'll be nine months.
Speaker 2:Oh, wow, okay, and you're still getting business. How does that work? What's the cheat code for that? Because I know people are saying like, how do y'all do that? That's awesome, had been in the industry for so long and was involved in organizations and knew a lot of people.
Speaker 1:when we were thinking of starting the business, there were just a few phone calls that we made and said, listen, well, technically jake made them and said we're thinking about doing this, do you think it's gonna fly? And everybody said, oh my gosh, that's so needed, like, please do it. And so by the time we started the company, we already had two clients.
Speaker 2:Wow, nice.
Speaker 1:And we've gathered some more as we've gone and, of course, the way we work is we don't ever anticipate that we're going to have the same clients forever, because we're you know, we're there to help. We're not necessarily there to be a permanent situation. It's like we come in and help you get where you need to be and then you can make a hire and then you don't necessarily need us anymore. So it's really so far been mostly word of mouth. We've had some people find us through our website, through LinkedIn, different things like that, and I'll be honest, you've probably noticed LinkedIn has not been something I've been able to be as active on lately as usual.
Speaker 1:And I feel terrible about it, but it's been busy and we've had a lot going on both personally and professionally. So hopefully come August I'm going to get back in there and get back in, because I miss the community so much. I hate that I've been kind of out of it. But yeah, it's really just been very organic and there's no cheat code. You just got to talk to people and for us, I think we're a little different. There's so many estimating companies out there who you speak to, one person who you sign the contract with. They tell you about the services you can use or say, okay, cool, sounds great, and you sign your contract. Well, then you're communicating with someone else about everything else and then they're passing it to someone else and those people who they're passing that bid to may or may not be truly qualified to handle it, but you have no way of knowing.
Speaker 1:And I think one of the selling points for us is it's just us, like Jake. Jake is the one who's going to do your estimate. You are going to have access to him and he's going to be asking you questions. The way we say it is. We work with our clients like we really do get to know the people we deal with at our clients. We talk to them all the time and we learn we use their software, we use their processes. We don't force like, we don't say, oh, we use this software and that's what you're going to get. It's like no, what do you use, Help us understand your process, and so it's. Yeah, it's a little bit different than some of the estimating services we're familiar with out there and I think that helps a little bit too, because we just kind of talk to people.
Speaker 2:I'm incessantly consuming content via audio books or YouTube around entrepreneurship, starting businesses, dah, dah, dah, dah, dah, right, all of the cause. There's just so damn much. I mean, yes, estimating is a heavy load and so is everything else, and you're doing everything else Right, and so what I mean? You said it wasn't a cheat code, but I think it's absolutely a cheat code because it's something that I missed and it's so obvious. Call the people you know and tell them you're thinking of starting a business. Like I swear, I mean, you said it right. Jake called a couple people who know. They said, oh, and they're customers now. They're like, yes, that's a great idea. Let me know when you started. So, cause I'm going to have some help saying similar for me.
Speaker 2:I didn't do that until like after the first year. Like it didn't occur to me. You know cause I'm posting on LinkedIn and different day and I had biz. I've been fortunate, I've had amazing clients and they're almost always long-term relationships. But I had personal friends in the industry that didn't know. They either didn't know I started a business or they didn't know what my business was. Oh, wow, and that's my fault for not calling them and telling them like, hey, man, this is what I do. I swear there's still some people that think I'm like the spot.
Speaker 2:The podcast is sponsored and I got all this money coming in from brand deal. Like no, this is not a sponsored podcast, bro. Like I do consulting to help people improve work in the field. Anyways, the cheat code is that is calling people, like anybody that you've worked with I'm saying this for the L&M family member out there anyone that you've worked with in the past five years. If you're thinking about starting a business, or you already have started a business, call all of them and let them know what you're doing, because they want to see you win. They're likely to support you and refer you and they may even hire you.
Speaker 1:I mean, we didn't expect any of them to necessarily become clients.
Speaker 2:And they may even hire you.
Speaker 1:Jake kept saying oh, no, no, no, for various different reasons. And so when we finally really sat down and had the conversation and we're like, listen, here's everything. This is why we really need to consider this now, he was like, I don't know, Let me make a couple of calls to people and just see if they think that idea would even fly. So it wasn't even hey, we're starting a business, it was hey, we're thinking about this, and I just don't know Can you tell me if you think this would be a marketable service? So it was more like market research and feasibility research than even just calling and saying hey, like whatever. So we made those. Well, he made those phone calls with us not having any expectations other than them saying, oh yeah, I think that would be a really good service. You know, I could understand people needing that or oh, I don't know that anybody would hire you for that. So, yeah, very unexpected that we ended up with clients out of it.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm saying like I remember the first breakfast, like I knew, because you know me all the I did immense amounts of research and studying before I started my business. Wink, I didn't, I just said I'm going to quit my job and I'm going to figure out how to do business. That's what I did. And I had breakfast with some, with people that I work with. They're friends, but I used to work with them and we're having breakfast kind of catching up. They're like man, it's awesome. And they're telling me about like we've got a leadership retreat coming up in Kerrville. No, no, no, I'm sorry, In Fredericksburg. This was three and a half years ago.
Speaker 2:And what we're looking for is somebody to like facilitate the retreat, but somebody that really knows us, that can like call us on our BS and kind of give us some guidance, not just like facilitate. And I'm like man, I don't dude. That's an interesting combination. I don't know anybody that could do that, or they would even be willing to go to Fredericksburg. I don't, it was at a winery, right. And then one guy says you don't even want you to do it and I like, oh well, oh yeah, I couldn't do that. Like that's like so again, it's like this thing that has to happen.
Speaker 2:In your brain they're like wait a minute, you gotta let people know when people want to work with you, especially if they worked with you in the past, because they understand the depth of quality that you can provide and they'll tell you no, I don't want your stuff because I don't like you. Or or like, oh my gosh, let me know, We'll find the, we'll find. I've had guys, I've had people tell me like I know we're going to bring you in to do something. Right now is not the right time, but you absolutely we're going to work with you in the field. Like, okay, cool man, Just let's work it out, We'll make it happen. But you've got to let them know. Bottom line, yes. Now you said that you saw this path a long time ago and it took some convincing for our brother, Jake. What was it that you saw? That made, like you knew, like this is. We need to explore this idea. What were the things that were capturing, calling to you about starting this business?
Speaker 1:Ooh, so many, and I think this kind of gets back to where we started with the burnout situation and the stress. Almost every job that Jake had in estimating there was burnout and stress within the department, whether it was one person or whether it was multiple people, and there were heavy traffic times when they could really use an extra hand.
Speaker 1:They just didn't need it year round and so many estimators were working 50, 60 plus hours a week, you know, working weekend and I told him I was like there has to be somebody out there that can come in and take some of this off of you guys when there's just too much for the team. Like there has to be a solution for this. And he was like there's just really not. And of course there were some estimating consultants out there then. And you know I'm not one to disparage anyone, I just know that I heard that the people, the companies that tried them, did not have good experiences. The estimates weren't necessarily accurate. The estimates weren't necessarily accurate. So the only exposure that we'd really had to the potential of this service were people that weren't necessarily doing a good job, and I don't even know company names.
Speaker 1:I just know people would say, oh, got to be a better way. Like is there a way to hire a part-time estimator? Or you know, again that whole, bring them in during a heavy work. I just kept seeing all these times where it's like they just need an extra hand and they don't have access to it because it's not something they need full time yet, because it's not something they need full time yet. And it just kind of stuck in my head thinking, and you know, I'm me, you know me, I'm sitting here thinking about like these people who.
Speaker 1:What are they missing in their kids' lives, because they're having to work on a Saturday morning when their kid's out doing activities or their children are young or you know, not necessarily just the kids. But like what are these people missing in their personal lives? Because their company doesn't have someone to help take the load when it's necessary. And what's that doing to their mental health long term? And the other thing that I noticed is there's a decent amount of turnover, because when you have this situation and people get burned out and they've just they're overworked, they're burned out, they can't handle the mental load anymore At some point they're going to throw their hands up and say I can't do this anymore, I've got to stop.
Speaker 1:And so then you have the turnover situation. It's like, oh my gosh, if they could just bring somebody in for when they needed them, they would be able to keep the experience they have instead of consistently having to hire new people and retrain them. And that person has to learn the company, whereas if they could do this one thing to help out, they would be able to keep these employees long term and they would spend less money on hiring and training. And so, again, it's like one of those holistic it benefits everyone If you can just find someone that's trustworthy, that you know will do a good job.
Speaker 2:Yeah, oh, my good, I love it Cause it was obvious to you and that's the beautiful thing, right? So maybe for the L and M family members out there, what's obvious to you is not obvious to everyone, right? Like you're saying, like wait a minute, my husband's working his butt off and he's miserable. Maybe he wasn't. I'm maybe exaggerating, right, like 50, 60, like honestly exaggerating. Right Like 50, 60, like, honestly, 50 or 60 hours of work to me that's easy. But like what do you mean? Less than 60 hours? What's wrong with you? But 50 or 60 hours today, running my own business piece of cake, I'm loving it, I'm having fun.
Speaker 2:I've worked 50 to 60, 70, 80 hours a week under extreme stress and under pressure, with no resources in sight to alleviate any of that pressure.
Speaker 2:That's a different deal, even 40 hours of that.
Speaker 2:And so, like, what you're describing is you're watching Jake there, you know, working himself to the bone and he's a high performer and he has high expectations of himself, and so he puts more in than maybe the normal person would or the average person would, and so that strain and pressure takes out the energy, like takes life away from him, cause by the time he gets home, not just Jake, but people in general by the time they get home, they got nothing left and their significant other, their kids, their pets, the plants, all the things are neglected.
Speaker 2:And so you're a hundred percent right and it was obvious to you, like man, if you just had this little resource that could come in and take off some of that pressure so that those people maybe they still work 50 hours, but they're not under crisis mode every minute of every day, their quality of life shoots up. And so, again, I'm a 50, 60, 70 hour guy, but it's different doing it knowing that I can design my life in such a way towards not this high pressure situation, it's more of Ooh, there's so much opportunity to serve other people, I'm going to have to, you know, I'm going to have to like, not watch, whatever, right, there's things that I'm willing to sacrifice so that I can get my brain focused and do the thinking that's necessary to deliver the service.
Speaker 1:Antonio, that was part of your job. You went out and did the conference with Megan two years in a row and you go out and I see you posting pictures of all of these connections that you're making, not only through the podcast but in real life with people, and so you're not sitting in an office in front of a computer burning through numbers your entire day. You're out. You're, you know, hiking with potential clients, you're flying somewhere to do a conference and meet people. There's an aspect of life that we've started to miss, and I think the pandemic kind of put it on hyperdrive, because we were forced to interact virtually and whether you're an introvert or an extrovert, we all need social connection and I'm not going to ever disparage good relationships between coworkers.
Speaker 1:That's an incredible thing, but you also need social time outside of work.
Speaker 2:Yes, no, you nailed it Because part of my work is button pushing. Right, it's not a lot Like, it's a small, like I don't have to do timesheets or expense reports. Where, like that's it, anybody that wants to recruit me to work for you full time as long as I don't have to do timesheets and expense reports? You got me, but nobody's got that situation. So we keep the consulting deal going on. Part Part of my work. Yeah, I got to do invoices. It's that time of the month that I got to and I don't really like it, but it's part of the work. I got to respond to emails. I'm not great at it, actually, I'm horrible at it but I got to do that part of the work. Part of it is doing my training, consulting, facilitation. I love that part because it's high human engagement, human interaction Absolutely love that part. Yeah, traveling around and connecting with people and building relationships.
Speaker 2:I think the magical thing is, because it's my business, I get to pick who the hell I want to give attention and energy to, whereas you know the things that I've learned in the three and a half years of running my business. I look back and I'm like man. I was a pretty media, I was a good employee, but I was a pretty meat like, mediocre employee, because what I understand now in terms of like business development and marketing, branding and messaging and like all of that, had I known that when I was like an employee, I would have been a freaking outstanding employee, but I would have to apply those skills and knowledge to people that I don't necessarily appreciate or like, and so that's the difference, don't necessarily appreciate or like, and so that's the difference. It's like, it's I don't. There's very few things that I don't enjoy doing or, more accurately, there are very few people that I interact with that I don't like from a business perspective or delivery of service that I wouldn't hang out with at the ballpark or go, like you said, or go hiking with them or, you know, barbecue with them. There's very few people you know.
Speaker 2:When I had a real job, it was like, oh man, I hate all of these people, but I got to go, you know, do the thing, which is a totally different experience which, like you said, like the hours, it's fun for me and the work that I get to do, I believe is precisely the work I was designed to do in terms of helping people have awakenings and shift and see things differently, so that they're having more fun at work, like you, improving their quality of life like full picture, not just their performance at their job, which is not the same as the jobs that I've had before, like I had amazing jobs but it was like 20% amazing, 80% a job, whereas now I have like 80% amazing, 20% job. You know, anyways, one quality I want to make is that personal touch that you and Jake deliver, cause I would say that's the unique thing. Right, there's so much content out there about scaling and operationalizing and optimizing. Right, like all of these things, which I agree could be valuable If you want to build a business that you want to resell or like that you want to exit out business that you want to resell or that you want to exit out, over that you want to scale massively, but I don't think that's the kind of business you all want to build.
Speaker 2:No, sir, you like the personal, the connection, the exchange of not just service but generosity in service. Am I wrong?
Speaker 1:You're absolutely right, and that's one of the reasons people have said oh, when are you going to hire and when are you going to do this? We're like we're not. We're it Like this? Is it Because A we're really picky? I mean like really picky, and you nailed it earlier.
Speaker 1:Jake puts incredibly high expectations on himself and he wants to deliver the best product he's capable of delivering, and I'm very much the same, and we genuinely become invested in the success of our clients and that matters a lot to us, and so we don't ever want to bring someone in and have them working with our clients and then not be just as invested as we are, because, like you say, we really are in it for the service, because the whole point was oh my gosh, we can help improve people's lives and maybe, if we're lucky, we can help improve the industry and sort of, you know, very small ways, one company at a time. If we can offer some sort of organizational help that allows this company to streamline and spend, you know, 20 minutes less on each bid, it doesn't sound like a lot, but it can be huge, and that's what we're after.
Speaker 2:That's what we're after yeah, oh, my goodness, oh, I love it and I'm going to say this, like what I it's kind of, I have a love hate relationship with, that is, I too am here to transform the industry. Right, I'm gonna leave this thing better than I found it. Now, I'm limited in terms of like, just being a human I got to sleep and all these things and so that means the like. The number of people that I will be able to touch directly is limited, but I also know that when I impact people the way I know I can, that it activates them to do the same for the people in their space. So the love-hate thing for me is I love knowing that when I serve somebody to the degree that I can, that it's going to activate them and they're going to serve others. I love knowing that and those others are going to serve others, right, those ripples. What I hate is that I can't see all of it. I want to see all of it. I want to see everybody.
Speaker 1:What do you think about that? I understand that. I think it's hard. It's funny. You bring up ripples.
Speaker 1:That has been sort of a recurring theme throughout my adult life and people that I have found as mentors or even some of my bosses. One of my bosses I worked at a law firm for a while. She was one of the most incredible human beings I've ever met in my life incredible human beings I've ever met in my life and she did very similar to you, to me, to Jake. She did everything for who it could help and she talked about the ripples and she actually once talked about how you don't always get to see it, but you know it's there and I agree, like not being able to see it is sometimes difficult and I think the reason is especially in our industry.
Speaker 1:We know some of the problems and we could get into so many of them, and I don't necessarily mean just organizational problems Like look at the mental health crisis that the construction industry is dealing with right now. There is a real human cost to the inefficiencies in our industry and it's hard to know that ripple is out there but you don't have a face to know that this person benefited from something that you initiated, however, many steps ago. We only get to see, you know, the immediate people that we can see, and that's hard sometimes. But I genuinely believe that in the next 10 years we will be able to see what the ripples of all of us who have these intentions because, again, this community that especially you've built on LinkedIn, that I've like, been fortunate to be accepted into everybody is trying to better the industry and the world, and when you start seeing that community grow, I can't believe that in 10 years we won't see those ripples. I can't believe that in 10 years, we won't see those ripples.
Speaker 2:Yeah, oh, I'm with you A hundred percent. Like they're happening and they get bigger and I just want to see all of them. Heather, damn it. Oh, my goodness.
Speaker 1:Okay, I feel a little cheated because you already know what the Grand Slam question is yeah, but you know what's great, but I have an age in my life where I can't always remember what I said last week. You already know what the Grand Slam question is. Yeah, but you know what's great?
Speaker 2:I have that age in my life where I can't always remember what I said last week. That's awesome. I love it, all right. Well, let's give it a shot here. So you started a whole business. Not only started a business, but transformed your life, sold everything. Y'all are out and about traveling the world, experiencing new cultures, committed to improving the quality of life for people and transforming the industry, and that's not to say that you haven't already had major impact in the people that you've touched. I'm one of them, I know you have, and so my question to you is what is the promise you are intended to be?
Speaker 1:Oh, the promise I'm intended to be. I really did forget and have not even thought about this. I think I would have to say the promise that I'm intended to be is to do as much work on myself, push my comfort zone, push my growth edges and improve myself and be the best me I can be, so that I can help others in better and different ways the more I grow.
Speaker 2:Oh I, you know I second that sister right. Oh I, you know I second that sister right. You heard me at the beginning say selfish servant. I believe a hundred. Rather, I've discovered it's not a belief. I know the more I challenge myself and grow and learn and all of these things like which seems like me focused, it helps me serve better in deeper ways. And so you know type A. Type a, I think. What else? Did you use another description?
Speaker 2:recovering perfectionist tightly wound, yeah, all those things, but you're out there bouncing around the world, challenging, expanding that comfort zone. So there's no doubt that you're absolutely going to be deeper, like, more equipped to serve other people and touch them in the way that you've touched me, ms Heather. Thank you, thank you.
Speaker 1:And did you have fun, oh my gosh, I had a blast and I want to tell you the feeling is mutual, because the thing that you said earlier and it's so funny that I know you say it all the time, but what's obvious to you is not obvious to everyone you told me that the first time we met in person and I will not ever forget that, because the conversation we had was I was like well, yeah, but everybody, and you're like no, not everybody, and that made been part of one of the things that I chew on in a way to help me be better. I literally say, all right now, is this really obvious to everybody, or am I seeing something they don't?
Speaker 2:Thank you for sticking it out all the way to the end. I know you got a whole lot of stuff going on and, in appreciation for the gift of time that you have given this episode, I want to offer you a free PDF of my book Becoming the Promise You're Intended to Be. The link for that bad boy is down in the show notes. Hit it. You don't even have to give me your email address. There's a link in there. You just click that and you can download the PDF. And if you share it with somebody that you know who might feel stuck or be caught up in self-destructive behaviors, that would be the ultimate you sharing. That increases the likelihood that it's going to help one more person. And if it does help one more person, then you're contributing to me becoming the promise I am intended to be Be kind to yourself, be cool, and we'll talk at you next time.