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Learnings and Missteps
The Learnings and Missteps Podcast is about unconventional roads to success and the life lessons learned along the way.
You will find a library of interviews packed with actionable take aways that you can apply as you progress on your career path.
Through these interviews you will learn about the buttons you can push to be a better leader, launch a business, and build your influence.
Find yourself in their stories and know that your path is still ahead of you.
Learnings and Missteps
The Blueprint for Better Leadership: Kabri Lehrman-Schmid
In this insightful episode of the Learnings and Missteps podcast, host Jesse interviews Kabri Luhrman Schmid, a nationally recognized construction influencer and project superintendent at Hensel Phelps. Kabri shares her 18-year journey in the construction industry, focusing on complex projects and redefining leadership. The conversation delves into her approach to jobsite leadership, emphasizing the importance of creating environments where workers feel valued and empowered to contribute. Kabri discusses the concept of psychological safety, the role of effective communication, and the impact of building trust within teams. She also touches on the challenges and rewards of being a change agent in a traditionally rigid industry. Throughout the episode, Kabri's authentic passion for people and process improvement shines through, making this a must-listen for anyone in the construction field.
00:00 Introduction to the Podcast and Guest
02:32 Diving into Job Site Leadership
04:11 Personal Experiences and Leadership Style
06:59 Challenges and Consensus Building
10:55 Impact of Leadership on Job Sites
11:07 Listener Shoutout and Feedback
12:45 Early Career Lessons and Mentorship
14:27 The Importance of Listening and Learning
21:12 Creating a Learning Environment on Job Sites
27:31 The Value of Human-Centric Leadership
30:12 The Impact of Long-Term Industry Experience
30:41 Championing Mental Health and Wellbeing in Construction
32:00 Building Relationships and Overcoming Friction
32:53 The Power of Small Actions in Creating Change
34:09 Navigating Leadership and Performance Evaluations
47:06 The Importance of Psychological Safety
52:58 Authentic Leadership and Industry Recognition
57:41 Final Thoughts and Connecting with the Audience
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figure it out, get over yourself, treat people like humans and you'll have a better time at work. What is going on? L&m family? Back at it again, and this time I got like an ultra, ultra high status construction celebrity on here, ms Cabry Lerman Schmidt. She is a national construction influencer, but not just an influencer because she posts cool stuff, but she is actually a project superintendent for Hansel Phelps and she seems to have fun spending her time on like ultra, super complex aviation projects.
Speaker 1:If you've ever done any work on an airport, if you've ever been to an airport, you know we're difficult. She's managing work massive, massive volumes of work on these projects with massive numbers of people. She's been in the field for 18 years and she's built a career by redefining what leadership looks like and that's my honest observation the way she rolls. I've actually shared the stage with her maybe a couple times. Now I know one time for sure. She's the real deal and we're going to kind of dive into some of the goodness that she does. But first, if this is your first time here, this is the Learnings and Missteps podcast, where you get to see amazing human beings just like you sharing their gifts and talents to leave this world better than they found it. I'm Jesse, your selfish servant, and we about to get to know Miss KB Lerman Schmidt.
Speaker 2:KB. How are you doing? Oh, I'm so excited to be here. Your energy just makes me like glow and tingle. This passion for this industry and the people around us. Let's do this.
Speaker 1:Oh, I think, tingly, sparkly, that's exactly how I feel. I mean, you and I we've been working to make this happen and we're finally here. And this time I feel like I have an advantage, because the last time we were on stage together was the webinar with NCCER, and you went first, or rather you went before me. I'm like, oh my God, this is going to be difficult because you're a baller, and so this time I have the upper hand because I get to ask all the questions.
Speaker 2:And I have no idea what you're going to ask.
Speaker 1:So let's do this I know, so we'll start with a super easy one what does job site leadership look like?
Speaker 2:Oh man, I love that. So I am. You mentioned, I'm a superintendent. I work for a large general contractor, always have so large commercial, large aviation projects. I take the role of leadership really seriously. I'm in the privileged position to be responsible for the entire job site.
Speaker 2:Right, we set the tone. We are the role models. What my team does is set the standard for how people are taken care of, what the expectations are for behavior, how we can facilitate the use of resources on a job site. We are bringing language to every interaction. That sets all of those tones. We are saying this is how we expect people to talk to one another. How can we support you? And you said you're selfless servant earlier. That is how I see job site leadership. We are clearing out the barriers. We are setting the plan. That is only as good as the information people are giving to us, and so, gosh. We better create an environment where people are interested and empowered to give honest information and it's information that makes them feel successful and that they're contributing in a meaningful way. And that's a big ask, because you have to create a place where people want to be. You have to create a place where people feel like they can utilize the skills that make them so proud of the work that they're doing, because that's what drives our industry.
Speaker 1:Yes, oh, my goodness. Now would I be wrong in saying well, of course this is your mindset, because every construction leader you've ever worked with has that same mindset you've ever worked with has that same mindset.
Speaker 2:No, no, that has not always been my experience. I don't remember how you worded that, but I get what you're getting at. I haven't always experienced that. It was something that I think I came to, born out of a few different personal and external experiences. I'll be honest, some of them were driven by negative personal experiences, some out of the anxiety and the experience of being a five foot half inch superintendent in the industry.
Speaker 2:I was very driven by getting a lot of consensus built around my plans because I didn't want it shot to hell when I brought it up.
Speaker 2:I wanted people to believe in the plan and to know that I took into account their perspective and I wanted them to understand my schedule and their place in it, and so I spent more time than my peers making sure that I had people's feedback and that my plan reflected that, and so this idea of consensus building and perspective taking became part of how I lead a project. I was criticized for that. At times. I was told don't pay attention to the drama of your cruise, but in reality, my night cruise driving the critical path right next to the passengers at the airport were the most successful, so some of it came out of learning how to navigate my surroundings from my perspective, but some of it came from seeing how the best leaders around me were able to create a language that other people bought into, or were able to adapt their language to communicate in a way that people understood and were able to say, ah, I know what's going on here, and to communicate to their audience well.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, they got to be able to put their hands on the handle. And languages we're not talking like Spanish, english, right we're talking, or French English, it doesn't matter, we're talking about English, english and the language that we speak and that was part of my presentation. Right At the different levels of the organization create holes for people to misunderstand and that leads to other things. But you've had the opportunity of being around amazing leaders and I think what I heard was your style. Your approach was informed by both really painful negative experiences and some actual inspirational, transformational type leaders that you said OK, I don't want to do this, I want to do this, let me go this direction Now.
Speaker 1:You said five foot half inch superintendent. You said five foot half inch superintendent. Why in the world did you like? You and I are in the construction industry and there's a litany of career pathways. What was it about the superintendent role that you said like you're killing it? You are setting a standard that I think every damn superintendent, aspiring superintendent, needs to follow. But why in the world would you pick it? Because it is not like it was. It's probably the next to the foreman, a trade foreman. It's the least glamorous job on the job site.
Speaker 2:Oh, I just love, love, talking to the smartest people out on the job site. I mean to be able to. My favorite thing is being able to hear pieces of information and bring the people who understand it together, to understand one another and to make a plan, and I saw that that was not always easy for people to do. To get people to talk to one another, first of all, and two, to be able to synthesize a plan out of all of the problems and all of the pieces of solutions that were out there. And being able to talk to people is fine for me. I never had a problem with it. But being able to jump in and see those pieces and how they could come together and then convince other people to listen to one another, that that's my, that's my jam and I get to do that right now.
Speaker 2:I'm I'm all fancy because I'm in pre-construction and I get to do that with the owner and the design team and that's that's kind of the special role I've built for myself is I started in pre-con and I roll over to the superintendent.
Speaker 2:I've done that on a number of projects now, which is pretty cool because I get to understand and I get to tell all of my crews why they're doing what they're doing. But the reason I love being a superintendent is because I get to be out there solving the problems. I get to be able to look at it and touch it and really understand what the challenge is for the people who are doing the work. And then I get to hear their stories and the stories are the best you know. Just the passion and the intelligence is I could go listen to. I'm married to an engineer. I get to listen to that kind of smart people all the time, but it's nothing compared to our skilled trades people and the amount of just precise knowledge. I take it as a point of pride to be able to be that connected to our people out in the field.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I love that because, yes, right, especially plumbers. Can you guess what trade? I was? Ultra philosophical and intellectual. They're not all as handsome as me, but they're still pretty philosophical.
Speaker 1:Now, I'm not goofing here, but for real. For real, there are some super damn intelligent folks out there in the field. But and I'm just going to lead to a question, but I know me coming up as an apprentice, journeyman, et cetera, I never was made to feel like that. And when I and sure, there's a little tone of victimhood there. But I would have an idea and present it to the superintendent or the project manager on the job site or we'd have a real situation, a real problem. And what I got back was stop making your damn excuses, just go put your pipe in. And I'm like man, I'm trying to. There's a problem coming, like I see what you're doing, step one and step two, but step five and six is going to be a disaster If we go down this route. I don't want to hear your complaints, just do what you're told. I'll talk to your office. Just do what you're told, I'll talk to your office.
Speaker 1:And so when did you discover like these people really have tremendous intellect and value to achieving the ultimate goal. What was it that helped you see that? Because, again, it's ultra rare KB. If you don't know it, it is ultra rare out there in the industry, I would say even within your organization. I've been on a lot of y'all's projects. Let's do the L&M family member shout out. And this one goes to Daryl De La Fosse. He's attended what is now known as the Self-First Time Mastery Workshop and Daryl sent this, he says, awareness of getting work habit planning into my personal life, the value of breaking down large personal activities that are dancing in my head into detailed to-do list tasks on a calendar to commit to, was invaluable. No-transcript Everywhere I've been there are some hotspots of amazing people, but they are the exception. And so what was it that helped you recognize that, and not only recognize it, but leverage it as one of your superpowers?
Speaker 2:Oh man, you're going to make me cry because I've never thought about this memory in this kind of way before. In fact, I was talking to one of my managers my operations managers of my region like three days ago about this because we have this one person in common now retired. Like three days ago about this, because we have this one person in common now retired the person who hired me when I was an intern working at the Pentagon renovation project. I was working for the owner's rep. Yeah Killer, first experience for the construction world, because I don't have a history. My family has not worked in construction. I was an engineering student, okay, Okay, and.
Speaker 2:I. I lucked into a fantastic internship and I saw one of the most successful federal design build projects happening and it was my company, hensel Phelps, working at the Pentagon renovating wedges two through five, and I saw the immense collaboration. I saw interns talking about rats the size of cats running under interstitial slabs because there's a river under that building. Anyway, it was amazing. And I walked up to the largest superintendent I could find and I said I want to be an intern with you next summer and he said who the hell are you? And I said well, I'm an intern with the owner's rep over here. He said well, put your resume and your transcript on my desk by the end of the day.
Speaker 2:And we ended up in a conversation and I went to a pretty good school and he said kids that come from your school don't make it. He said you don't have a history of construction in your family and he said I'll be honest with you. Because you don't respect the craft, it's because you don't understand what it takes takes, it's because you're not willing to listen, it's because you think you know more. And I took it more as a challenge. I didn't take it offensively, I didn't know anything at the time and I had no stigma to be like. Of course I'm gonna ask questions. Why would I think I know more? Like I don't know? I never felt like I had that bravado.
Speaker 2:It set the basis in the way that you just posed it was. I was told at the very first day that that was my job was to listen, learn, respect and serve our craft and trade partners. And yeah, it was done in a demeaning way. And yeah, now I've been here 18 years and things are great. But the person who hired me told me that that was my first and utmost responsibility and from then on I just loved listening to the stories and hearing the whole process. But thank you for putting that in a more positive light for me. My mental health I don't know.
Speaker 1:I think one thing that our L&M family out there can take from this is sometimes the most profound and impactful direction. Coaching and advice we get comes in a sour flavor, and that's okay. I think of Ed Mauricio. He was a pipe fitter and I was a. I was his apprentice for like two and a half years. When I found out later that it was kind of a miracle because people quit on him and they kind of wanted me to quit and I did it like he was was hard.
Speaker 1:But one of the things he told me, like, jesse, all I want from you is one thing I just need you to be smarter than the pipe. And I'm like and so whenever I was doing dumb stuff, jess, that pipe smarter than you right now, ah right. When I would get stuck on small things, Jess, that pipe smarter than you, Ah it. So it was. It didn't feel good, but it stuck and it was impactful. It helped me think about it, Think take multiple options. There's more than just one way to skin a cat. Get some input, ask for feedback, ask for help. Like small things wrapped up in that you're dumber than the pipe, Jess. Yeah, it's a good on you for for taking that as a a challenge, right, Cause in my head when you're explaining I was like, oh yeah, I would have been like, oh yeah, well, let me show you ding dong, but also as, okay, that's what I need to do. Because, yes, here in San Antonio we did a reflection.
Speaker 1:It was funny Cause the company I used to work for I was on the project, like I was hidden right Because I wasn't installing anymore and I would support my teams. But the deal that I had with the project teams was like I'm going to come out there and help, but you can't tell the GC I'm going to be there and you can't tell them who I am If they ask you. I'm just a day laborer because I was responsible for assigning manpower to all of our projects and so if they knew they had me on their job, they were going to come and tackle me and make and you know, you know what you would do. So that was the deal with my team Don't tell them. Anyways, it was a successful project, high profile project, but our experience of their lean program was not amazing and I got to see it like, oh, this is wonky.
Speaker 1:Anyways, I then went to the dark side, I quit that company and went to work for the general contractor and I'm hearing them talk about this project and how awesome the lean program was. I'm like what world are you guys from? And they're like what do you mean? I was like bro, I was out there, it was, it sucked Like. The job was good, decent, I'll say, but that lean stuff that y'all were doing, it was a. It was horrible for us as the trade contractors. So, anyways, I said here's what I suggest, Cause they were very open-minded. That project team was like well, man, if it wasn't that good, we need to know how can we make it better. Because it was good for them, it wasn't good for everybody. So we brought the framers, the MEP and the framing contractor. We said we're going to have a feedback session with you guys and we really want to know what did we do well, what do we need to improve on? So on and so forth. And we got some good information.
Speaker 1:But the one thing that stood out the most is this is tied to what your that first superintendent fed you. One of the guys said it's the, it's the young. He didn't use this language, but he said it's the younglings. He said the biggest problem that we have out here is you have these kids that are pretending like they know everything. They don't listen, they don't ask questions and we know they don't know. So what we do is comply maliciously. We say, okay, you want to do something stupid and you're not going to listen to us, we're going to do it. And so it was.
Speaker 1:That was the biggest rub about all the things. And so and I was like, okay, well, how do we handle that? And again one of the trade leaders was like man, all they got to do is ask us. We're trying to, we want to teach them, we want to help them, but for whatever reason, these and I'll say zero to three years out of university right, that was generally the situation they are not asking questions and they are not listening. All they need to do is we will teach them, we will share, we will be open. But when they come at us like they know what the hell they're doing, they don't listen, they don't understand the work, they don't appreciate the work, and we know it. It's a bad situation. So it's not just you. I think it's a natural thing and I really feel and this is me, I have no idea, it's just a big assumption, maybe pretending overcompensating for what they don't know?
Speaker 1:is them overcompensating for their insecurities, and all they got to do is say I don't know. Can you teach me, Can you show me? Can you explain this to me? I mean, so maybe that's the how. How do the trades respond to you? Or maybe, if we do like a percentage wise, when you, early in your career, when you asked them about their work, what was the percentage that said grab a chair. Let me tell you versus. I don't have time for you, get out of my face.
Speaker 2:The only person that ever said get out of my face was with my own company. Seriously, I never encountered that. It was always like, oh, I need to get back to work, can you get back to work? I don't want to ask you to get back to work because I want you to answer my question in the future, but I'm pretty sure we're both going to get in trouble if we don't get back to work. I was always met with more than I asked for in information. It was asked for in information. It was, I mean, so helpful.
Speaker 2:But to your point about the youngins and how your trade partners gave you that feedback, when the onus is on job site leadership and it's not just to teach the younger employees about what they can or should do in order to learn because the pressure they're feeling is also from their own team about how they need to perform and what they're trying to prove and what they're being asked to do that might be beyond their skill set or where they do and don't know they have autonomy or not what performance looks like. But it's also like telling our trade partners I tell straight up on this project, I want you to bring apprentices. I want this to be a project where you want to bring them to learn, and I end up with more women, I end up with more underutilized zip codes, just people who are like, oh, this superintendent's okay with us training people here. Please let's make that a place where this is of value. And I expect you to answer the questions of my brand new field engineers, because they're brand new.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, oh, my God, okay, you just opened up a can of worms. So there's two things that are kicking around in my head. One is friction from your peers, the other is KPIs. So I'm going to code down the KPI idea and then we'll circle back to friction from your peers, because I think it'll be valuable for folks that are early in their career in any industry, because one, you're living proof that if you stay the path, you can have amazing impact and influence. And also, like the practical, how do you deal with it and overcome it? But here's what's ringing in my head and it's something that just I'm jealous because, like you know, I get to meet amazing leaders now, more amazing leaders now, and, like son of a gun, like for real KB, if this consulting thing don't work out and my feet picture only fan page don't work out, I'm going to come be a laborer on your project. I would love to just work and experience the leadership you're talking about.
Speaker 1:Now back to KPIs. I understand schedule, budget, safety, quality, right, that's kindergarten, if you ask me, those are kindergarten metrics. You're going to have them whether you want to or not, right? It's just going to tell you where you're on target or not, but what I heard you say is bring your apprentices and they're saying, hey, this is a place where we can learn and develop people. So the KPI that I'm curious about is do you have a sense of how many careers you have impacted with the approach that you have taken? And I'm not just talking about direct employees, and direct reports are a learning environment to develop the skills of the men and women in our workforce. Am I overreaching here.
Speaker 2:I mean, that's what I hope for. But I know that the leadership of those trade partners I know the people on those crews have given me feedback in ways that their experience on my projects has been unlike on others, that it's given them an insight to what the industry could be. It's given them insight into how they could run their crews, like permission to how they could run their crews in other spaces. The kpis any kind of measurement metrics is people who are coming to your job site once Like the waterproofer for three days, the third party inspector who's subbing in for somebody else. It is well what's going on here.
Speaker 1:This is weird.
Speaker 2:Something different and you're like what do you mean? What's different? This is just how I run my project and the third party inspectors people are talking to each other. I'm like because we have a concrete placement. Yeah, yeah, they're talking to each other and I learn his son has been the third party inspector for the last six months and he said my son hated his job and now he talks about his job like he likes it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, like that, when the pile, you know, rig foreman is saying he went home and decided that his kindergarten son's class needed cow bones buried in the yard for an archaeology project over the weekend, when, instead of saying my kids will never be in this, you're doing that. Like that's what I can do with a job site. Yes, and anybody can. You can do that as an office engineer, project engineer, calling the structural engineer, saying instead of you got to change that on the submittal, could you explain why you didn't do that on the submittal? Remember, I'm married to a structural engineer.
Speaker 2:I hear these stories all the time. I say you have to call your structural engineer and say please and thank you, please, so I don't get in trouble. Yeah, it's easy, it's that easy. It's literally sharing your thought process and offering the resources you have, which can be like a green checkmark on a symbol, but that's how you change people's lives. You ask how they are and then you find out four months later that you made that week something completely different for them and they stayed in as an electrician because of you asking if they're okay. Yes, yes, not just as an electrician In many asking if they're okay, yes, yes, not just as an electrician.
Speaker 1:In many cases on this earth, because they are nameless, they are voiceless. Because there's an industry, we treat them that way and when I say them, I'm talking about our trade, craft professionals and super intent. Like the whole industry we are we largely we have developed this way of interacting with the human beings as if they're disposable and we can't do that anymore. I'm excited. This is bad and the quickening exodus of boomers is creating the perfect conditions for companies, decision makers, to have to do it differently, to have to do it and, to be clear, to have to do it like you're doing it, kbree. I don't know if you know this, I bet you do. I know your office does you do, I know your office does. Is the trades, when they're on a project like yours, you get? Not only do you get preferred pricing, you get preferred performance. I know that for a fact because you're not getting the dummy tax. Do you know what I'm talking about when I say the dummy tax? I've been on the side of the trade where we say, hey, man, we want to go aggressive after this project, we want to put a 0.80 multiplier on the labor. What do you think, jess, it's a tenant, finish out. I'm like, okay, well, it's already up, that sounds good. Who's the GAC? And they would say these people are these. I said, ah, who's the PM and the superintendent? And depending on what name I heard, I said oh no, no, you need to mark that that needs to be a 30% markup on labor because it's going to cost us every penny to make money because they don't know. First, they treat people horrible but they don't know how to run a damn job. Or if I got like a cabri of me, I do 0.75 because we're going to make money and we're going to be able to develop our people. Do 0.75 because we're going to make money and we're going to be able to develop our people. So back to the cape and so folks out there. If you think this, like being a human and appreciating other humans on your job site, is weak sauce, there's real money tied to just being a damn human, like for real. And if you don't, it's the dummy tax. Ask your trades, they'll tell you, or maybe they won't. If you're not telling you, it's because you're the dummies. There's a little secret there. Now back to the KPIs Again, and I get a lot of sidewinder laser looks when I say budget schedule, quality and safety are kindergarten metrics. Oh, you finished on time. You did your job. Yeah Right, you fulfilled your legal obligation in the contract Like for real. We're celebrating that.
Speaker 1:How many divorces happened on your project? How many people are struggling with substance abuse? How many people are on the verge of a nervous breakdown? How many people got promotions on your job? How many people grew? And so? Those are the KPIs that we don't pay attention to. And you have the testimonials right. That's amazing. I don't think it would be very difficult to say to track promotions. How many people got promoted on the projects that you're on? How many people built a new skillset or got a raise? Those are real metrics that speak to the culture and the environment that you are designing and maintaining. And how long have you been doing it? 2015, 20 years, massive impact, massive impact. But we don't measure those things, so I bet the number is probably 10x. What you would guess, kb. What do you think?
Speaker 2:I hope so.
Speaker 1:Can you kind of carry?
Speaker 2:on with this stuff. It's great. No, you're right. I mean, that's how we should be thinking of our people. I'm passionate about the industry's mental health and our personal being. I'd love to champion the topics of suicide awareness and psychological safety, but the reality is that we have people coming to our job sites every day that are whole people and all of the KPIs that you reference and really their, their life wellness needs to be accounted for. Yes, and I do think. I do think that the industry is in need of a shift, but also that there's more and more conversation finding you online. It's a whole community of people who are talking about how to treat people right. It's like my favorite part of LinkedIn is like people like don't go to LinkedIn, that's only people trying to recruit other people. I'm like, but no, there's this whole community of construction. People go like love people in construction, Explain it, and they're like what are you talking about? I'm like like superintending 2.0. Like I don't know how to explain it, but I can send people for you, you know.
Speaker 1:You know? Oh no, you're right. It's turned into a pretty interesting, weird but amazing thing and I'm here for it Until they kick me out. I'm going to be a part of it. Now I'm going to go at the psychological safety, but first I already got left people hanging with the friction from your peers thing. You are a change agent, you know this. I don't know if you know it, I'm telling you, but I think you know it. You're a change agent, You're a catalyst for change, You're an influencer, but that does not happen without friction. And so I'm curious for the young L&M family member out there, even the experienced L&M family member that has been apprehensive about affecting change because of the friction what do they absolutely need to expect and what are some tips to working through the friction?
Speaker 2:Sure, I think that the methods that I like to think I represent, the relationship building, the how to treat people, the thinking about how you can use your resources to support other people. I think that anybody can personally recognize their ability to do that within their sphere of influence. And what you can recognize is that it will make a difference from where you're at. It will make a difference as a PE. It will make a difference from where you're at. It will make a difference. As a PE, it will make a difference. As an assistant superintendent, as a foreman, as a journeyman, as an apprentice, treating the people around you better, it will make a difference and that will spread throughout a job site. Anybody can create that kind of environmental change, that feeling of oh, that person isn't just treating somebody like crap because their area is clean, they're actually supporting by handing a broom. That change is a dynamic and anybody can be that catalyst for change. And so one recognize that this doesn't need to be a grand experiment. It can be you acting within the realm of your own resources. So that's one. Two, because I'm in like I'm high leadership now right, like it's a very different animal now that I can talk about it in a way that I actually can back it up with a change order or contract terms or whatever. I can change the job site hours, I can talk to the port of Seattle or whatever. It has not always been like that, but I can still work towards the same outcomes of relationship building.
Speaker 2:But to get pushback that your style doesn't match other people's, yeah, that can come up in a performance evaluation. That can come up in a. Well, I think you're wasting your time, or that looks like you're too much dramatic information with me, which, of course, goes into stereotypes about gender. I'm not a social person. I'm not sitting there chatting all day Believe me, I'm not, but yet you're comparing me to that. You know there's that risk.
Speaker 2:And so, of course, as you know, a woman in the industry, I always need to walk the line about whether I'm being compared to being dramatic or overly anything. And so there's the constant management of how are you doing your job, are you working towards the outcomes that are expected of your position? And even if I'm disrupting, I am working towards the operational outcomes that not only my company is expecting. I'm trying to improve on understanding and delivering on what my audience, what my trade partners, what my design team members are trying to achieve and maybe that's the thing that gets misconstrued so often is that people think that you might be working in a different direction than the project because they see a different method. But to explain that, no, I'm literally trying to make our teammates successful and to convince people that that's not anti our own success. Rising tide raises all ships.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:It is not detracting from our success. To make everybody successful, Literally when my concrete trade partner starts coordinating the delivery by themselves with the plumbing contractor is a fricking win for everybody.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:I don't need that extra call at 4.30 in the morning. A text saying it's done is just fine. So expect that things can be misunderstood. But start to develop a language to be able to explain to people what your goals are, because you're not going to just need it to the people who are misunderstanding around you, who have influence on your career, but you really need to be ready to explain it to the people you are trying to impact, Because you need to be able to say out loud we are trying to achieve. I'm doing this differently because I want to achieve and you need that feedback.
Speaker 1:Yeah, oh, I love it. I love like two key points folks out there in the omniverse is you can affect change directly where you're at right now. You don't need to have the title, you don't need to have the authority. You can just smile with somebody else that is affecting change. Right, like we can absolutely do that, right, simple. Now.
Speaker 1:The other part is, even with all the influence, like you're the baller superintendent and you still have friction right like it's, you gotta expect the friction, and for me, this was my challenge or long, long time ago I got over it a long time ago. But I expect the friction. And for me, this was my challenge a long, long time ago. I got over it a long time ago. But I thought the friction was because I was defective. I thought it was because they didn't like me. It's not that People just don't like change. I represented change. So they were resistant to that.
Speaker 1:And once I came to terms with that, like, ah, I just need to figure out how to speak your language and listen, because maybe I'm a little bit off from a few degrees off, but if I listen, you're going to get me in alignment, we start speaking the same language and we can make something happen, but it doesn't happen overnight. And the reason I'm banging on this is because I know a lot of people that want to see change and they think that they need to talk to the CEO, and then the CEO is going to listen and go make the change. Man, I've never been able to do that. So if you can do that, go do it. But when I make change, I change my behavior. I impact and influence the people closest to me, make their situation better, develop a body of work. It becomes easier for me to start changing upward instead of horizontally, but the friction never goes away. So, anyways, what do you think, kb? Do I just make it too difficult?
Speaker 2:No, I mean the example that I gave of the concrete trade partner talking to the plumber, real example. But let me be clear that was nine months of me working with that concrete trade partner to trust the different process, and I don't blame that crew. They had been beat down by GCs for freaking years on high rises, right, and I bring them to my little project and they're like who's this lady? And I'm like you have to talk to my staff. I want you to make sure that you're training people. They're like no, we're like a highly refined team we can do repeat, we're great at all of our post tensions. We are refined. I'm like I'm so glad you're here and also I want you now to do more, since you're so great at that.
Speaker 2:And it took nine months to gain their trust, and when I say nine months to gain their trust, I mean every single day. There was some form of the conversation of I am here to support you. My field engineer is doing aspects of your reinforcing, to talk to the engineer for you. Now, were there some backsides? Was there me like really getting angry about them pulling a 40 foot trailer onto the job site without telling me? Sure, there were a couple of little hiccups in the road, but after all of that time they left that job site and I could call that superintendent for anything, and we are. He changed how he coached his own crews. The people on his crews who were unwilling to make eye contact with the g, with my staff, are now training teams of apprentices. And, like when I did some 360 reviews a few months ago I know it was he that wrote in here he said when I visited the job site before the project started, she wrote down every word I said to make a plan. I'm like that's all it takes, folks grabbing a book.
Speaker 1:It sounds dumb Like yeah, just take notes. No, when you take notes, specifically GC to trade partner or I don't really like the word trade partner. Gabriel, I have issues with that?
Speaker 2:Oh good, Tell me why.
Speaker 1:Because when we're partners, there's shared risk and shared reward. There is not a. The power dynamic is absent. Okay, I understand the philosophy and I would even go as far as to say you probably treat people like partners on site. Now, as a subcontractor, when I submit an invoice, I submit an invoice. It's 45, 60, 90, 180 days till I get paid and retainage is being withheld. How is that? Like you, I don't want partners that treat me that way. So call me a part, call me whatever you want, but if you're not going to treat me like a partner, don't call me a partner.
Speaker 1:And also, there's the kind of the technical element of it in IPD. That's where the term comes from and they are actually partners because they're signatures on the contract of shared reward and shared risk contractually on the ultimate performance of the project, the project. So for in my head, I get the sentiment, but people use it and fail to technically deliver on what a partnership would look like A and B, they just use. It's just another damn word. I'm better off calling me dumb ass because that's how you're treating me. What do you think Is that? Am I too sensitive?
Speaker 2:No, I mean, it's based on your experience with it. Right, you have both the ideal situation with IPD and issue partnerships. You have the negative experience of payment. I could go on and on about how I'm four months behind here with my partner of an owner, exactly, but I understand. All I can say is that when I say it, it's because I want you to believe it.
Speaker 1:And I have to.
Speaker 2:I need to live up to that in every conversation, otherwise, otherwise I do the same detrimental, the same disservice to the term and it's useless If. I use it wrong, then it's doing more harm than good.
Speaker 1:Yes, and I'm also going to add that you don't have to. I understand the whole payment and financing. I get that whatever that's, it's not that hard.
Speaker 2:We don't need to argue about payments.
Speaker 1:Right, just freaking, treat me like a human being and then you can call me. Treat partner for real, be nice, be cool, and then you can call me whatever you want. But if you're going to be the typical BS, just call me dumbass. Don't waste your time calling me partner, that's, that's all I'm saying. Now, two things you said again for for our construction professionals out there, that again speak to the level of empathy that you have. Speak to the level of empathy that you have. One nine months took you nine months to get the concrete guy over the hill right To kind of finally lock, get that puzzle piece to lock in. I'm going to say that's kind of fast, like for real, for real, real change in terms of relationships and behaviors and trust. Nine months, like nice, because it takes an enormous amount of time. It takes an enormous number of reps and this ties to the second part of a point that I want to make to heal and mend the wounds that our craft workers bring to your job site. And so what do I mean by that? You already said it, you are the exception. You didn't say that, I'm saying it.
Speaker 1:The majority of general contractors out there treat the trades like garbage. Treat the trades like garbage period, disrespectful. It is horrible. They have no interest in whether we're making money or not. They don't understand that we're the solution or that we can be the solution to their problem. But they treat us like the problem all the time, every time. And so all of a sudden, if that's how I'm getting treated everywhere I go, and then I come to your job Guess what?
Speaker 1:You're just another one of them. You could say all the nice words and have all the sticky notes on the wall and fancy ass freaking apps. If I've never experienced a reciprocal, respectful interaction with the GC before, this is alien. This is all just a cover up before. This is alien. This is all just a coverup, and it's going to take me a lot of time to get comfortable not comfortable, but to build trust that you are going to treat me differently, like for real, for real. And so your ability to account for the fact that they're out there getting abused and demoralized project after project after project and that is a natural thing that you're going to be overcoming is tremendous, and I think it's the same thing for everybody else.
Speaker 1:Like why do they behave? Why do we trades behave that way? It's because your peers have created the conditions for us to behave that way. That's what it is Now. You brought it up and I think you're. I'm going to say you are an expert in this area and I know you. Pinky promised me that you would tell everybody, give everybody the perfect formula and recipe to make it happen. Great. So you remember, right. You remember how do you do psychological safety and team culture. I know there's like a three-step formula that makes it happen 100% all the time, every time, in less than six weeks. What was it?
Speaker 2:that process. Oh man, psychological safety. Okay, let's, let's define that quick Psychological safety. It was coined by Amy Edmondson. We talk about it more in the industry now than we used to, but really it's kind of an understanding of how team dynamics work. If you look it up, you'll get great studies about how it improves team performance. Team communication it helps with how people feel about the work that they do. Really, it's about people feeling comfortable enough to share what they need, ask for what they need, share ideas and to express their mistakes as part of a team.
Speaker 2:Now, usually people think it's all about how people feel. Right, it's about emotions, and so often it falls into the realm of well, we need to train people on how to do soft skills in the industry, and it falls into, like, leadership training. That's one component of it. But what's missed is that, with all of these outcomes that have been studied Google's Project Aristotle, all of the statistics you can find for the increase in retention, the decrease in physical safety incidences, et cetera it's actually all about performance, et cetera. It's actually all about performance. And so when I think psychological safety, I think about how we can embed the treatment and the experience of people into our everyday operations and systems that have all been created to achieve those industry KPIs you mentioned. And so how do we achieve safety, productivity, quality? We achieve them with the gazillions of fricking systems we already have. We're not trying to add on to those. We're trying to do them in a way that encourages people's participation.
Speaker 2:When a new worker shows up at your job site, how do they know that? They can say I've actually never put out a harness before, so when you just assigned me to climb that scaffold, can you train me on that harness? It's them feeling like they can ask for that. Okay, and the outcome is is a safer situation and somebody who's better trained and a whole team that has a better learning capacity to see people doing that. Okay, and so it's. How do we create, within our operations and existing systems, a way for people to better see their contributions and to know and trust that those systems will work for them?
Speaker 2:That's psychological safety. In my perspective as a superintendent is you need to get your people on your projects to trust that all those systems you're using are actually going to work for them and that they can be proud of the work they're putting into it because they see their contributions coming out of it. When you say, hey, let's sit down and look at this schedule, they freaking see their words reflected in the schedule. Right, you can say, hey, this is where you said that window wasn't getting delivered on time. Yeah, and that makes them feel like they can contribute more.
Speaker 1:Yep.
Speaker 2:What it means is that when you have a really tight set delivery calendar with the university campus that you're in, along with graduation week happening, that your concrete trade partner can say hey, I know I'm not on the calendar, but I'd really like the opportunity, with the truck available, to take off some of the wall forms. I know the plumber's there trying to get his fittings in, but we've already coordinated and I'm going to use my forklift to get his fittings out so that I can pull off my wall forms. If that's good for you Done, you've developed people feeling that they can make those contributions.
Speaker 1:Yep.
Speaker 2:And that's it's a level of trust, but it's a trust in systems, not just in people yes, oh my god, we might have to do it.
Speaker 1:Part five and part six of this conversation, okay, the I love. I love that it's the trust in systems, like a hundred percent. It's people, right, systems don't matter if you don't have people. But for some of us that are more data-oriented which is my nice way of saying, scared to be vulnerable that are more data-oriented, a deeper conversation. A deeper conversation, or your second book after you write the how to Establish Perfect Psychological Safety in Six Wolves, the idea around designing the systems to drive performance with psychological safety.
Speaker 1:That's what I heard you say. I agree 100% because it is a system. What are the feedback loops? Are we listening? Are we asking? Are we responding? That's a system, but we could get super technical with it and I'm going to have to leave it alone because I'm just going to nerd out and monopolize all of your time. Ms K and I got to ask this question because I saw these letters and I figured like it was a tattoo that only the super ultra cool people get. I saw these letters and I figured like it was. It was a tattoo that only the super ultra cool people get. I saw these letters. It's FAAF and since you're working on aviation projects. I figured there's the FAA, but you get the F and you get a super secret tattoo because you've been on these projects. Am I overreaching on that one too?
Speaker 2:So there are a lot of unique acronyms to aviation projects. Faaf is not associated with the Federal Aviation Administration, though I did have a meeting about a crane and some requirements we have this morning. Faaf refers to the Fearlessly Authentic Award Recognition that I was recently involved in, and so that was a super awesome process. To be not acknowledged necessarily personally, but this award recognition was about authentic leadership across industries, and I got to be able to represent our industry on a stage of general business, healthcare, insurance, people who are usually where the books point to for how to run businesses and the summary and I didn't take this as a negative. One of the audience members said if the construction industry can figure out how to lead people with humanity, anybody can, because we were the example of success and I was so proud to be able to showcase people who don't know the work we do, and I was able to give them a window into things they didn't know that their family members had done, into what was going on across the street at a job site, and they were hard.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, that's okay, but did you get a tattoo, an FAAF tattoo?
Speaker 2:No, I didn't. I didn't. I need to, I should. I need to get number 25. So that's not going to be it.
Speaker 1:Number 25. Damn, all right, so Fearlessly Authentic AF, which I'm going to say, yes, right, like you're amazing, since we first connected, we did connect on LinkedIn. I'm like, oh, yeah, I'm a snob, if you didn't know that I'll see people post stuff right, like culture, and I'm like, yeah, let's see how long this one lasts. And I'm like, oh, she's still there. Oh, like she's for real. Oh, I need to know her. And like folks, if you don't know, that's what I do. When I see post stuff about teamwork and people, I'm watching you because there's too many damn pretenders out there. That's not to say that I don't understand what people piss you off, because that's part of it, but sometimes it's just out of popularity. But it was clear to me that you give a damn about people.
Speaker 1:And one of the observations I got to make in my career started off on the trade side of the business. I was a trade partner. I was there for over 20 years. I went to work for a GC for three and a half years, got to serve the century United States. Then I went. I had some national responsibility where I got to go to projects all over the country. The one thing that I got to see is the number of amazing projects was this big. I started my career in 1995.
Speaker 1:In the 1900s Don't tell me when you were born, kb, please don't For you the. The number of projects that I worked on that I felt valuable is probably 10. And I've been on chingos, lots of them. And then when I got started traveling the country, I got to see man, the projects that kick butt, like the client's happy, the trades they're talking everybody's like, getting along and joking, high perform people are getting promoted and like all of that, they had all had one thing in common and you have it they were focused on people. They appreciated the human experience. Did they put up with a bunch of crap? No. Did they lollygag around and enable whining and complaining? No, but they valued people and they created conditions for people to thrive and so duh, of course you're a fearlessly authentic AF.
Speaker 1:And that's the other element is you're doing it your way against the grain. Because it is against the grain Maybe not anymore so much in Hensel Phelps, but I'm sure when you started it it was. Why are you doing it like that? You don't need to put up with that. And then, industry-wide it is against the grain. And also, if we can do it, anybody can do it, and you're doing it, and there's a bunch of other folks out there that really need to just freaking. Get on board, figure it out, get over yourself, treat people like humans and you'll have a better time at work. Come on and make more money, like for real, for real. So I know people are going to fall in love with you. So I don't know if we should or shouldn't, but if you're up for it, where should we send them if they want to connect with you?
Speaker 2:Yeah, you can look me up on LinkedIn. I'm open. Anybody wants to connect? Please don't be shy about reaching out. I love talking about teaching. I've had some great opportunities working at universities but really connecting with younger students, telling them about the industry talking to anybody who wants to talk about instruction related, please just shoot me a note.
Speaker 1:Boom. So we'll make sure we get that link in the show notes. Are you ready for the grand finale question Ready? Okay, I'm expecting, or I'm response because and you've been very gracious and elegant about probably some of the stinky stuff that you've had to overcome, some bullshit, and you still maintain a positive outlook, investing in everybody around you, beyond your responsibility, within your organization, within the industry at large, and so that gets me excited about what you might say to this question what is the promise you are intended to be?
Speaker 2:I want to be the fridge between how field operations creates powerful connections at the job-sided level that serves the wellness and operational goals of organizations.
Speaker 2:There needs to be a champion of like field leadership culture. I know culture is an overused word, but it's somebody who can understand the link between systems and people, Somebody who can provide that oversight, Somebody who can just champion that messaging and make sure that people are looking at those right KPIs. I'm too proud of my conviction to the job site to just let that go. It's going to give me a meeting and just be a general superintendent and be too careful to bring a job site. I want to be that translator. I want to keep influencing the industry through job site leadership law, even if it's like these massive aviation projects. It just gives me the ability to touch your people. Yeah.
Speaker 1:I got chills. I got chills. They're multiplied. You're amazing, Kate. Has anybody ever told you that you're amazing?
Speaker 2:Oh, well, you have. So, thank you.
Speaker 1:Well, thank you. Thank you for sticking it out all the way to the end. I know you got a whole lot of stuff going on and, in appreciation for the gift of time that you have given this episode, I want to offer you a free PDF of my book Becoming the Promise You're Intended to Be. The link for that bad boy is down in the show notes. Hit it. You don't even have to give me your email address. There's a link. Hit it. You don't even have to give me your email address. There's a link in there. You just click that and you can download the PDF. And if you share it with somebody that you know who might feel stuck or be caught up in self-destructive behaviors, that would be the ultimate. You sharing. That increases the likelihood that it's going to help one more person. And if it does help one more person, then you're contributing to me becoming the promise I am intended to be. Be kind to yourself, be cool, and we'll talk at you next time.