The Dirty Secret About Moving Up in Construction Nobody Prepares You For — With Gary Borque

Most people in construction get promoted and handed a completely different job with the same title.

No roadmap. No manual. No honest conversation about what moving up is actually going to cost them.

Gary Borque lived that. Multiple times.

He started as a fabricator, worked his way through the millwright and carpenter's union, spent five years as a traveling superintendent, built a training department from scratch, and now serves as director of field operations at Hemi Systems.

Every transition came with the same dirty secret nobody warned him about — and in this episode he finally says it out loud.

Gary gets into the imposter syndrome that nearly derailed him, how he learned to compete against himself instead of everyone around him, and why 42.5% of the construction industry retiring in the next ten years isn't a future problem — it's already here.

If you've ever gotten promoted and immediately wondered if someone was going to figure out you didn't have it all together — this one's going to hit close to home.

Connect with Gary Borque | LinkedIn 

Learn more about Depth Builder 

00:00 Imposter Syndrome Fuel

00:38 Meet Gary Bork

02:37 Constructability Explained

04:08 Estimating Field Gap

05:29 Cost Codes Integrity

08:06 From Fabricator Mindset

10:32 Union Pride Shift

13:33 Field Experience Advantage

19:05 Leadership Skills Upgrades

26:43 Handling Bad Leadership

30:29 Life as Road Superintendent

33:55 Leading Like Family

36:56 Doubt in New Role

38:00 Asking Questions Under Pressure

38:30 Imposter Syndrome as Fuel

40:11 Ask for Help and Get Specific

41:39 Why Debt Builder Matters

44:22 Transition Into Training

45:34 Building Training From Real Gaps

47:57 Workforce Shortage and Safety Stakes

49:36 Planning Toolbox in Action

51:15 Investing in People to Win Talent

53:38 New Role in Field Operations

55:51 Hiring and Mobile Training Trailer

59:09 Legacy and Final Wrap

Get the time management system that will make you dangerously effective: https://www.depthbuilder.com/time-management-webinar-sign-up-page

Subscribe to the Monday Morning Hugs Newsletter for thought provoking topics to accelerate your growth: LinkedIn Newsletter 

Download the free PDF copy of Becoming the Promise You are Intended to Be 

Transcript

Welcome And Gary’s Journey

SPEAKER_01 0:00

You you have that imposter syndrome sometimes. You go through these situations where you feel like you may be unqualified, and it's a mental inner struggle. And I but I think that's normal. That's us being stressed. And I think everybody who's been put into a higher position will go through that. Or for the most part, you will feel inadequate. You will feel less than. What can I do today that I could that could do better than yesterday?

SPEAKER_00 0:38

What is going on, LM family? Back again. And this time I'm getting to interview somebody I connected with through the socials. We have a very similar heart and kind of similar path, except he's more accomplished and more professional than I'm. He began his career in 2011 as a fabricator. And he worked his way up through the Millwright Carpenter's Union. So already y'all know he's a craft worker, trades person by heart, which of course I'm gonna gush on him a little more than normal. He's also been a traveling superintendent, road warrior for about five years. And all you folks out there that have been on the road traveling to execute projects, you know that life. It's not the easiest, but and it's pretty dang rewarding sometimes. But he didn't just stop there. He recently moved from managing training and constructability to director of field operations. So let me just summarize that for you. Started off as a fabricator working with his hands in the field, got into apprenticeship, and now he's a director of field operations, which that path is available. That's what I love about construction. That pathway is available to so many people. His name is Mr. Gary Bork. He's an OG real baller, and we're gonna get to learn more about him. And so, if this is your first time here, this is the Learn In Missteps podcast, where you get to see amazing human beings just like you tell us how they are sharing their gifts and talents to leave this world better than they found it. I am Jesse, your selfish servant, and we are about to get to know Mr. Gary. Mr. Gary, how are you doing, man?

SPEAKER_01 2:29

I'm doing well, Jesse. It's a pleasure to be here. It's an honor to be with you guys, and looking forward to this. It's a really good day today, so let's get fired off here.

SPEAKER_00 2:39

Okay, so I'm gonna start with a simple question. What's constructability?

SPEAKER_01 2:45

It's that's interesting because a lot of people kind of you know they get sidetracked on that, right? You hear the term being thrown out a few times, you hear, you know, constructibility in different, you know, different environments, but constructibility in its true sense is just how are we going to build this project, right? When we're being when we're able to sequentially put steps in place, zone things out in a way that brings clarity to your people, to where it makes it easier on them to build what you want to happen, that's constructability. So we're working with pre-construction, we're working with the estimating team, and we're breaking projects down so that we can present it to a client, or we can present it to our people so that they can be more efficient.

SPEAKER_00 3:31

Gary, that's the best for real, the best description and most thorough description I've ever heard. Particularly because most of the time the conversation around constructability kind of just lives in the estimating and presentation to the client perspective. Can we build it? What's it gonna cost? What's it gonna take to logistically and all that other stuff? Rarely is it ever actually I've experienced firsthand. This is people don't usually think, okay, we know how to bid it, but how the hell are we gonna help the people do it?

SPEAKER_01 4:07

Yeah, that's the biggest thing. Well, there was a gap, right? I'm hearing your story. There's a huge gap from the office to the field, right? And there's a lot of information that doesn't translate down into the field. So coming from the field, I recognize hey, this is something that needs to be filled. This is something that's gonna help us achieve success. And there's like with estimating, there's a lot of things that get missed. There's a lot of things that they just don't quite know because they may be in the office, they don't have field experience, and so that's where we come in and we bring that clarity to the field.

Bridging The Office Field Gap

SPEAKER_00 4:39

Man, okay. I'm hoping you've never had this conversation because I've had it too many times. But will I be reviewing? Okay, they got the project set up. Hey, Jess, we're going for an interview, look it over. I'm like, okay, let me see the quick pen, like the software that we use for our estimate. They're like, ah, you don't need that. I said, Yes, I do, because I need to know what I'm getting into. And of course, I would identify gaps. And again, it took me a long time to mature to the point where you know what they're human too, and they're estimating three or four projects a day, like give them some grace. But, anyways, I would identify gaps, you know, things that were overlooked, or maybe they put it in a different bucket, and I just wanted clarity, and so I would bring the issues up, right? And look, the team would tell me, Jess, if we got everything in the estimate, we wouldn't get the job. You ever been a part of those conversations?

SPEAKER_01 5:27

Absolutely, absolutely, you know, and in a way into it brings some sort of integrity too, because when there is miscommunication in the estimate, right, and it hits the field, and then you have those certain buckets where money is allotted to you, and then you might have an estimator, or not an estimator, but you may have somebody in the field not properly identifying where those monies are going, and so they'll tend to overload one to make one task look better. If they're running over on the estimate, they'll try to subtract that and put it into a different bucket, and it brings a little bit of integrity into the mix, too.

SPEAKER_00 6:02

So oh my god, yeah. I what I'm hearing is task codes where I'm gonna charge my time and the material cost to, and that was one thing. It fell in and fell. If you're one of these, just know if I find out you're gonna be on the dead to me list. I cannot stand. And it was a thing that used to happen, and it happened with everybody, but kind of back to this integrity thing where it was like the money was put in the wrong bucket. Let's just say that. And we're charging time where we're supposed to be charging time to this to say plumbing underground, right? That's the task code, and we're coming up on 95% of that budget expended, and we still got 15% of the labor to do the work. Somebody in the office says, stop charging that code, start charging this code. And I'm like, why are we gonna do that? Well, because you're running out of money. And I'm like, so what's the point of having task codes then? If we're just gonna I'm eating up, I'm not even working. Like, just give me one task code if that's what you're gonna make me do. And I was I was like eventually I got to a point in my career where I was a stickler. If you're gonna make me charge a different code, even though I know it's not right, I am not gonna do it. We're gonna fight tooth and nail because I'm not gonna do that. Because in my head, the value of having that kind of delineation in terms of the different tascodes and whatever is to be able to measure our performance, learn from that, and get better. Am I just like a Disneyland fairy tale guy?

SPEAKER_01 7:35

That's a very interesting point because whenever you get to the end of the project and you're going over lessons learned or project close out, how do you understand like where to change, where to grow, where to evolve into the next project that's very similar? And so that's where those buckets come into play. We did this the first time. There might have been some mistakes. How are we going to do better next time? And so that gets missed a lot. And I think that's a huge gap right now in the industry that we're all trying to, you know, build out and kind of put together again.

Production Mindset And Early Growth

SPEAKER_00 8:06

Yeah. Yeah. You're like the big dog now, director of field operations. And so we kind of kind of gives you a different perspective of the whole business and the value, the purpose behind the codes. But let's go back to when you were a fabricator. Did any of that matter to you? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 8:24

I did not care about toss codes, I did not care about buckets. My my main concern was production. How fast can I go? How can I beat the next guy? That was my mentality at the time, right? I wanted to grow. I wanted to, you know, I was very young, 22 years old, and I wanted to make a name for myself. How could I get the most done and wreck everything in my way? That was my mentality earlier on. That was it because you're bulldozing your way through, you don't understand the politics, you don't understand all the naysayers, and you don't really recognize the negative impact you're having. I had to learn the hard way, but yeah, you're absolutely right.

SPEAKER_00 9:10

No, I love it. Same, very same. Like I just wanted to be the best damn apprentice around. When I got my license, I just want to be the best journeyman and just beat everybody in my circle. And then eventually, some people say I got promoted. It felt more like I got punished up the ladder. Got more responsibilities and all the other things. So, as a fabricator, did you decide back then, okay, I want to be a director of field operations. And in order to do that, I'm gonna do this much time in the union, I'm gonna do this much time traveling in the superintendent. Was it that cut and dry for you?

SPEAKER_01 9:47

Not at all, not at all. It was a journey, JC. I'm sure you have this picture, right, for your future and your career and your family, but I was so narrow-minded and I had a completely different mindset than I have now. And I think that journey, you start to evolve and you start to view things in your life and different chapters with a different lens because of the experiences that you go through. You know, that's the failures, that's the wins, that's the long hours away from home, that's making mistakes in the field, a lot of rework, or what have you. I mean, it just keeps going on and on, but you don't really see that far ahead early on in your career. It's hard to see that far ahead because and with construction, everything changes, right? Because with me, I started out in fabrication. One, because it gave me a job. I had a small family, I had I was newly married, and I needed a way to make money. And so once I got into fabrication, I started to understand wow, okay, these guys are welding. This is very interesting to me. I wanted to learn how to weld, and then I started to see how to put machinery together, how to build out different systems, and then you just start expanding your knowledge, and then I got to a point in fabrication where I wanted more for my family, and then that's where the union came. Right. And then with the union, it brought a lot of benefits than I currently didn't have, a lot of there was an increase in pay and a lot more opportunity. So I went that route. Now that is where I started to understand the pride in what I do. That's whenever I would start. I started to sit back and take ownership over every task and every decision that I was making because it had greater impact, not just on myself or my company, but on the local union. And I wanted to represent that well. And so I my mindset started to shift at that point. And with that, I continued to grow and I continued to grow through the union and did the union bid. And then we decided to make a change. We decided to make a change in our life. We sold everything. We were in California, and we decided, hey, we didn't have any family here. We wanted to do something different. I was working 714s for six months straight every year for about six years at a small family, three kids at that time. And I really started to see the demand it started putting on my responsibilities at home. And I had to make a change. And so that's where I went into the next chapter of my life and started going on the road, which was a very interesting pathway for me. But it was fun. It was fun, but I'll tell you that.

Empathy For The Work

SPEAKER_00 12:29

You know, we're gonna do the LM family member shout-out. And this one goes to Mr. Johnny Livingston, another recent victim of the time management for construction training. He left this review, five stars, by the way. He gave me five stars and I didn't bribe him. He said, the class was very open and it opened my eyes into taking care of myself. By taking care of myself, I can take better care of others. Yes, that is the whole point. Yeah, I agree. I want to be super hyper-efficient and optimizing, get a million things done. But that don't work. That is not sustainable if I'm not taking care of myself. So, Johnny, I appreciate you leaving that comment. And folks out there, you already know I love attention. So the stars and the shares and the thumbs up and the reviews, all of the things, I love them. And when you leave a review or a comment, it gives me an opportunity to celebrate you in the future. So I want to learn a little bit about the pathway because I similar, I think similarly, there was some major learnings when I made the ship. Now I didn't go to traveling superintendent, I went to traveling lean geek. But before I go into that, man, I'm curious to like now you're director of field operations, so you have a lot, you have enterprise responsibility. The decisions you make are not like back in the day when you were fabbing something up. If you had a weak weld, you grinded it out and fixed it. Like the fix to some of the decisions you're gonna make is a little bigger than what they were back in the day. But on the same note, my assumption, or what I'm curious about, is as a fabricator and going through the union at the time you were with the union, there were skills that you built at that time that directly apply to what you're doing now. Am I wrong?

SPEAKER_01 14:31

Absolutely right. Yeah, and that kind of goes back to your initial question about constructibility and being able to blend field experience with office experience, right? And that's another gap that we struggle as an industry in right now is having that field experience coming into the office to help estimating, to help strategic planning, to help where we're going as a company, right? Because you have a different viewpoint because you've been there. You've been in the dirt, you've been in the trenches, you understand what it actually takes to build this out. And with that, you can scale that as a company because you can see that long term. You can see what benefits, what hurdles, what things might not work, that other people who may not have traveled that path may have come straight out of college into the office world that they're not able to see. And so that's what I'm able to help contribute in a way when I can.

SPEAKER_00 15:30

Yeah, yeah. I've heard this phrase before empathy for the work, right? And the people that have spent time, there's layers, right? But folks like us that came up assembling, doing construction, doing the assembly, the fabrication, the stuff. We have an empathy from the work because we know what the pain was, right? We knew we know firsthand the impact, good leadership, good systems, good processes. We know the impact that can have on an individual and just daily performance. Yes, and the individuals, not the ones that want to want to be CEO in six months. Anybody like me as an installer that I didn't want, don't I don't want nobody calling me, I don't want nobody knowing my name, just give me my assignments I'm gonna go kick ass. Good leadership, good systems, good processes help me excel. And I've been in situations where weak leadership, weak systems, horrible communication, it didn't matter how hard I worked, my performance sucked. Yeah, and so my point in that is by swimming in it, we develop an empathy for the work, which is if we choose to do so, which is extremely valuable as we progress through the levels of management, but nobody tells you that. And also, I want to you know give a nod to my to our friends out there that entered the industry by way of you know, they got a degree, they got uh education, and then got into their, you know, estimating or engineering or whatever it is. There's extreme value there, and like partner up, man, because I'm not saying you are not qualified or you're less than, I'm just saying there's some things that you don't know by just because of the path you took. It's not a judgment, it's a fact. What do you think about that?

SPEAKER_01 17:19

Absolutely. So, I mean, with that, going back to a little bit about what you said, you're absolutely right. When you come from the field, you're able to see good and bad leadership, you're able to understand on an accompanied viewpoint how not to lead your people because you see you see bad leadership and it happens, and you have to figure out how to get through that and how to achieve greatness through that. But you take those moments. I remember whenever in that fabrication shop, I noticed a foreman, I remember his name, and I still remember this guy to the day. And I always told myself, I'm never gonna treat people how he treated me or these people, and so I that stuck with me. It was something that was ingrained in me every step of the way. I always go back, and we have those leaders, and we learn something from them. I'm always the person to say, no matter who they are, even if they make the bad decisions, I try to draw the good out of people. And so if I see something, I might approach it and say, hey, I appreciate what you said. I don't agree with what you said, but now I understand how not to treat people. Try to keep it the nice political way. But you know, that's how you grow businesses, like you said, you take the estimators, you take people who went that pathway, and you're absolutely right. There is huge value in that. There's people that are in specific lanes and in the right seats on the bus for a reason, and that allows us to cohesively come together as a team because whenever you have both mindsets, you're unmatched, right? You can be the tip of the sword, right? When you have that teamwork, and with that comes healthy conflict, but you get through that and you're able to be better as a team.

Communication And Time Blocking Skills

SPEAKER_00 19:06

Oh man, I love so you you triggered a thought. What are some skills that you had to learn in the last let's say the last two transitions you had in terms of your career? What are some skills that you had to develop that you had no idea where to go and figure out how to develop them?

SPEAKER_01 19:24

Oh man, that that's tough because it it seems when you go through different levels in your career path, it doesn't matter what it is, change hurts. Change happens, and you have to learn how to just roll with the punches. But I was able to gather and put people around me as barriers, people above me, people that used to look up to me. I surrounded myself with people who've gone the path who can direct me in a way to where I won't fall off the ship. And so I think the two skills I would say the most that I had to learn one is how to communicate to people better. It's it's something as you work up the chains, you have to understand that you're working with different personalities. Now you're working at you're working with people in the field, whether it's in a craft level, you know, in the manager of training position, you're trying to teach them a way of how to put the product together. And then when you're coming into the director of operation or director of field operations, now you're trying to teach people how to do that. Now you're trying to teach people how to teach your people if you're trying, if you can follow me. It gets complicated, but it's learning the systems, learning the processes, setting yourself up with leader standard work. That's a huge skill that I had to put into place. I started time blocking. I understood it doesn't matter if it was a to-do list, I'm putting it on my calendar. I'm going for I'm going the day before and I'm blocking my time out. You know, I have my first one in the morning is workout, bad name, right? I'm motivating myself to need a workout, whether it's respond to emails, whether it's text so and so, whether it's do this, whether it's do that, whether do expenses, what I'm blocking everything out so I can put a hundred percent of my focus in that. Because what I've started to recognize is you have all these different voices, you have all these different strings that are being pulled in your direction. You have to have a you have to find a way to be efficient and to give everybody the appropriate just everything. You got to give them your attention at that time, and so that that was the biggest thing for me is really trying to understand how am I going to manage all this at one time. It's putting the right people in the right places, setting up my own leader standard words so that I can be successful.

SPEAKER_00 21:51

Yeah, that's amazing, man. And you nailed it, like it's complicated. So for the listener out there, these are it's a clear. Map, I'll say, but you don't know what it feels like till you walk the past. And so, like time blocking 100%. But it's not that easy, right? And I think I'll I'll I'm gonna pick on this because I know how valuable it is. It's like going through and blocking out my calendar and saying I'm gonna do X and I'm gonna do Y, I'm gonna give this thing an hour, this thing 90 minutes, this thing 15. That's easy. Actually, doing it is hard because, like you said, there's issues, there's problems, there's a perceived emergencies, real emergencies, family life like all of those things are pulling, and then there's me because I'm a scatter brain, I like to have fun and I want to play. It's not time to play, you got to finish and get your work done, and so yeah, time blocking. But so, first building the habit to do that regularly, because as our you know, I see this a lot in the time management workshops that I do. The younger cats, the younglings that still, you know, they're strapping young men and women, and they're like, What are you why y'all keep talking about calendar? Is it just a boomer thing? And I'm like, Well, here's the thing, and I had to think about like wow, they don't use their calendar at all. And I'm like, Okay, Jess, when you were 20, neither did you. I didn't have to. My foreman told me what I needed to do, and I did it. Like, I didn't have to about multiple projects, direct reports, like community involvement. I just went to work, put the stuff in I was supposed to put in, and then tried not to get arrested at night so I could go back to work the next day. That was my level of responsibility. But now, my goodness, if I don't use my calendar, I'm a mess and I underserve people. So I had to build that skill and then the discipline to like, no, to your point earlier, is like, no, no, no. I'm gonna do this thing and I'm gonna give it the appropriate focus, I'm gonna give it the right level of intensity because it may only be a 30-minute conversation. Yeah, but I got to give it everything I got so that it's meaningful and impactful, and then the next thing is gonna have the same level of intensity so that I can execute and keep those balls rolling while fielding the damn curveballs and emergencies, etc.

SPEAKER_01 24:13

Yeah, absolutely. And what was a big driver in that is you know, in the field, you're so used to handling with people on a day-to-day basis. I say this, it's easy not to let people down because you're so accessible, you're there, you can meet them where they're at. But as you grow and as you go through different channels, you know, you might get feedback. Oh, he doesn't talk to me anymore, right? Or oh, he doesn't meet this anymore, he's not this, or whatever. So you get these different things. And so when you start to understand that people are your greatest asset, and you have to establish lanes to keep that communication so they still feel valued, like you can still provide a lot of impact, right? And so it does it take work, absolutely. Is it a learning progress? Absolutely, but when you're intentional, you're consistent, and you allow your you allow yourself a space to set up these processes so that you can achieve good things, it makes a world of difference, absolutely 100%.

Learning Under Weak Leadership

SPEAKER_00 25:12

And I wanna there's two points I want to make that's really important because I believe everybody has the capacity or potential to advance and be in leadership roles. That's not the same as everybody wants to do it, right? If you want to advance and get bigger titles and bigger dollars and more responsibility, you're gonna have to get good at dealing with people, aligning people, assessing talent, managing like performance management, writing people up, firing people, and like they don't tell you that, right? I remember I want to be a foreman because all they do is eat tacos and go to meetings, and then I was a floor, like, oh my god, there's so many different like those massive amounts of responsibilities and a whole new skill set I needed to build. So, like, folks, if you want to advance, be ready to learn and experience a lot of pain and friction because it's not easy. The second point you made was about some bad leaders, and I think I heard you say something like, I learned what I didn't want to be. I learned, okay, I'm not gonna be like that kind of leader. What's your advice for somebody coming up that thinks they want to take the next or that's in a situation where the leadership is less than awesome? What kind of advice or insight would you give them, Gary?

SPEAKER_01 26:42

That's an interesting question, right? Because no matter where you go in in this industry, there you're always going to find something. You're always there's always something within a company. You want to be treated the best, you want the best for your family, you want to create a good environment, you want to be in a good environment. But the reality of the situation is it's not always like that, no matter where you go. And every company struggles with something, but as long as you are grounded, right? As long as you can find certain things within that company to learn and add to your tool belt, you'll be successful. When you come at it with a difference and you're not so critical, it's because some processes might have already been set up before that leader above you was in place. And so you have to see around certain things in certain situations. So when you come with the learning mindset and say, hey, look, this is a situation I can learn from this. Whether I'm learning how to do something good, I don't learn how to do something bad, you're still winning. At the end of the day, you're still advancing, you're still growing. And going back to a minute ago, what you said, that's what's so great about construction. There, there are people who want to advance, there are people who want to grow and do big things, and that's okay. But there's also a place for those who like to do really well in one thing. You want to be a welder for the rest of your life, you want to be a crane operator the rest of your life, be the best that you can be forever. And that's okay. That's okay. There is a place for those people, there is a need for those people together as a construction industry. That's what makes us strong. Understanding that you don't have to be perfect.

SPEAKER_00 28:25

Yeah, man. 10, 4. Oh, it reminds me of Kelly James welder, by the way. We started a Foreman training program, and he said, Yes, I don't want to do all this stupid freaking paperwork. I'm like, okay. I said, Well, you don't have to do it, but foreman do. And he said, Okay, well, if I'm not gonna do it, will I get fired? And I said, Hell no, Kelly, you're the best damn welder we got. We still need you, bro. He said, Awesome. He says, Okay, well, if I'm not gonna do it, I'm not gonna get fired. Do I still need to be in this class? I said, No, sir, you don't. And it was interesting because I totally didn't expect that conversation, but just that quick, I'm like, oh wow, I think we're doing a good thing by helping people understand this is like the minimum expectation. And if you can't commit to this, no problem, go back to work because this is what our expectation is. And also, I want to highlight for the listener, keep the learner's mindset because there's always something to learn. And I'll add most of the lessons that like the really meaningful, deep lessons I've had, they always came in the worst situations. So if you're in a bad situation, start really looking for those lessons because there's some gems, even though it stinks and it's less than amazing, there are some gems that you can carry with you through life and help other people going forward. Do you agree, my friend?

SPEAKER_01 30:03

Absolutely. I mean, that's just life to a T, right there. You know, you got to have that mental fortitude to just press through. I mean, it doesn't matter what life goes at you. You can either, you know, sit down or get up. I mean, what you make of the situation is it's how what's going to determine the outcome, right? You have to have that learning mentality. We don't want to be a victim, we don't want to have that mentality, we want to be overcovered no matter what we think.

Traveling Superintendent Life And Standards

SPEAKER_00 30:27

So absolutely 10, 4. All right. So then you jumped into the traveling superintendent world. What was that like?

SPEAKER_01 31:40

So, traveling superintendent was fun. I'll be honest. I mean, that that was probably my favorite part of my whole career so far. And the reason why I say that is because when you're out there in the field, well, I'll stick it, I'll take a step back. I took my wife and my three kids, I sold my house, bought a fifth wheel, took my wife and three kids, and thought that it would be the best thing to do to travel the country. That's you hear about traveling construction workers, and then you actually do it, and you start to meet people from all over the country. You start to see different things that you may have or never had the opportunity to see. You know, we got to go to DC, we got to go to Grand Tetons, do some work up in Idaho, you know, you're working in New Mexico, Florida. And so you're able to give your kids an experience that not a lot of people get to do, you know, and so we were very grateful that our kids got to experience that. So it was a really good time because for me, I saw a lot more camaraderie in the field because you start to understand you're spending more time with your co-workers than your own family at times. Or when, as a superintendent, you're leading men and women who are out there without their families, right? And so you represent a family to them. And so that that kind of plays into the type of environment that you're giving to your people as well, right? You want to create good bathrooms, right? You want to create a good lunch space, you want to create a clean site for your people, you want them to have clear expectations. But that was the best thing for me as a superintendent, just the experience, whether it's at a camper, at the end of the day, after a long, hard day by campfire or coming together with people you may have ever known before on a specific project and building a team to make something come to your fruition. So there's a lot of different things as a traveling superintendent that you get to experience that you may not have that as a local worker.

SPEAKER_00 33:41

Yeah. Well, one, Gary, I'm gonna give you some props because I've worked with I've never been a traveling superintendent, but I've worked on projects where the superintendent was traveling for a period of time in my career. We had a lot of federal work. They're spent a lot of money here in San Antonio on the bases, and most of those superintendents were traveling superintendents, and they didn't give a shit. Like they were in and out, they treated us like garbage, and I kind of understand it, right? Like, they don't need to invest in the relationship because they're leaving town at the end of the project, and they treated us like that, and so I need to give you props because you said, and it's true, you represent a family to all the people that are traveling to these projects, and we all know it that's in the construction industry, we spend way more time with the people that work on the job side, and it's not synonymous to construction, but that's my industry, right? Than we do with our own families and the things that we love and care about. And so, where did that awareness come from, Gary? To say, wait a minute, I'm the best representation of a family for these men and women. I need to do it right. Where did that come from?

SPEAKER_01 34:57

And that's part of my journey. So growing up, I didn't have the best representation as a failing growing up. And so going into fabrication, going into the union, going into traveling superintendent type work, I recognized what I valued and I started to understand that I wasn't the only one that went through that. You're gonna have the dickheads, right? You're gonna have the guys who are mean, you're gonna have the guys who are gonna cuss you out, tear you down for not doing anything right. But I had already gone through something in my life and made bad decisions that allowed me to have respect for people. So I naturally understood that. And so I felt like it was a disservice if I wasn't giving my people that part of me and giving the construction industry because you're right, as a traveling worker, these people are coming and going. They may not be on your project for long, they might not come on full term as your as an employee, but the impact that you've made is going to translate for the rest of their life next to the next company. So, what type of legacy do you want to leave? You can lower your standards, right? You can lower yourself and have that no give a shit attitude, or you can step up, set the expectation, serve with excellence, and try to change the industry. And that's the mentality I had along the way.

Imposter Syndrome And Asking Questions

SPEAKER_00 36:21

And I love it. And I'm gonna read between the lines a similar path as me. There's guy, I swear, I did some training recently, and there were a couple of guys in the room, they're superintendents now. They met me when they first entered the industry as apprentices, and I was a shithead foreman superintendent, and my style and approach to managing work and leading teams was well, just say less than soft. And they're listening to me talk about you know, respecting people and investing in the individual and appreciating the men and women doing the work, and they're like, Who the hell are you? That's not the guy I remember, but it can't my shift happened, you know, it was it took a minute, but as a result of learning the hard way of I mean, I was like straight up. I remember one day I was asking, like, man, I never get invited to lunch or like to hang out with the guys after work. My guys know the painters and the form workers and the carpenter, like they know everybody on site. I don't know anybody, and I'm like, I asked one of the guys, I said, No, like, why doesn't you know everybody? And you're getting your work done, so I'm not gonna pick on you, but I'm here too, and I don't really know anybody. He's like, Yeah, Jesse, because you're an ass. Like, you're right, you only talk to people if you need something from them, and if you don't, you just blow them off and treat them like crap. I'm like, Oh, and I just thought if I push hard and firm and you know, all of that's the best way to get stuff from people, and I could get production, but it was sustained, it wasn't sustainable. As soon as I left, whatever. Then I shifted, and I'm like, oh my god, I got friends now. People tell me hi, damn it, and it changed me entirely going forward, man. So I feel you on that. Now, when he went into the superintendent role, that's a I would say a big giant jump in responsibility, but more importantly, there's this thing between our ears that sometimes brings doubt. So when you went from working with the Mealwright union, the carpenter's union, to being a superintendent, were there any was there any mental baggage that you had to get wrestle with to lead that project, to be the superintendent?

SPEAKER_01 38:43

Yeah, I mean, I think that's understandable with any position whenever you grow and you get elevated. I had worked my way up in the union and became a foreman. You know, our foreman then were like general foremans in the industry. So whenever I shifted to open shop and went into a superintendent role, there was a lot of curveballs, right? There was a lot of things that we didn't do that I had to adjust. And I think with that mental fortitude, like you have to be able to ask questions, right? When you don't know the answers, and you're gonna make mistakes, you're gonna do the wrong thing, you're gonna get yelled at by your boss. You're but you have to be able to weather that, you have to let that just fall off the back. If you're committed, you have to ask questions, you have to find people like-minded and put pieces around you so that you can be successful. But absolutely, you you have that imposter syndrome sometimes. You go through these situations where you feel like you may be unqualified and it's a mental inner struggle. And I but I think that's normal. That's us being stressed. And I think everybody who's been put into a higher position will go through that, or for the most part, you will feel inadequate, you will feel less than. What can I do today that I could that could do better than yesterday? And I just always carried that. Yeah, it's a struggle, it's normal, it's something that I don't want to keep repeating myself, but yeah, it's something internally that you have to go through, but you have to have people around you to help you get through that.

SPEAKER_00 40:23

Oh man, I agree. And for folks out there, if you're feeling inadequate and having the second guess in and the imposter syndrome, any and all of the above, just know that's evidence that you're human. That's right. Absolutely, it's part of the growth, it's part of the it's just part of the damn territory. And I love that you're vulnerable, willing to share that because too many people, and I'm one of them, right? I denied it and I stuffed it, and really I diluted it. This was back before I got sober. Like the only way I could deal with it or knew how to deal with it was drinking, and it was not a situation for me, right? When I finally came to terms with man, don't nobody know everything. We're all figuring it out and just trying to get by today, it was a big deal.

SPEAKER_01 41:13

Yeah, and you swallow that, you know, with the same thing with drinking, you know, you it you deal with certain things how you deal with certain things. Do they make them right? No, they don't. And but every nobody expects the best, like that you are gonna hit the ground running. There's gonna be potholes, there's gonna be road bumps, and you know, that you're gonna have to go through. Just know the people above you who are elevating you should recognize that or are recognizing that. And so you don't have to keep it in. I mean, I can see that, right? I've gone through that at certain times. You want to make a good impression, you want to do a good job, you want to make them think you're capable. But at the end of the day, I believe you're doing one of two things. One, you're challenging yourself, but you're also hindering yourself from growth. So ask for help, right? Ask your leaders who put you in place. What can I do to grow? What am I missing? What are the processes? How do I set up a project? How do I put this in? How do I, you know, figure out my Costco or whatever? How do I, you know, how am I going to generate a three-week look ahead? You know, something as simple as that. You know, what documentation do you guys use? Do I need to do a toolbox talk? When do I do that? There's a lot of different things that you have to start understanding and asking questions. So when shit hits the fan, you're doing your job because there's going to be a moment where you're not doing what you're supposed to be doing, and it's because you didn't ask the question or they didn't properly tell you and inform you what you should be doing. And I think that's how you and I connected with Death with Death Builder is saying, Hey, we need something to teach these trades. We need leadership type formats, three-week look aheads. What can we do to work through our people? Because we weren't shown the way. You know, we had to cowboy our way, we had to figure out ways to make expectations meet. And luckily to you, and shout out to you and what you're doing, you saw that gap, right? And you filled that gap. And you made it in a way that it was digestible, it was easy, and it could be have an immediate impact. And I saw that in my own life in a few of my projects, and but that just brings it full circle, right? There, there's gonna be struggle when you grow, and that's okay. Admit that, know that, and know that there's people out there trying to make a change, like Jesse, right? Who are putting things in place so that we can all grow as a construction industry. Absolutely, yeah, man.

Building Training From Real Jobsite Gaps

SPEAKER_00 43:38

Oh, I love it. So there's two things that you said that I want to make sure people hear and it and because it was the hardest phrase I had to learn. One was I need help. I could not, it took me five years to learn how to say that. Like, I'm I would just stay up all night banging my head against the wall instead of saying, I need help. The other is I don't know. It's okay, like really those six words, I need help and I don't know, completely transform my mental wellness and the trajectory of my career. The second point you made earlier was you said you compete against yourself, right? And I and again, that that shift, when I finally had that awakening, I'm hitting it again because I know that there's listeners out there that are hard charging, ambitious, hardworking, very, very competitive. I was the same and I was competing against everybody. And man, the amount of friction it took for me to advance and grow and learn was tremendous. When I shifted and started competing against me and finding people to collaborate with, the game changed, man. The game changed. So the best person to be competing against is the person you were yesterday. What do you think about that?

SPEAKER_01 45:03

Absolutely. I mean, that's a motto I live by every day. And what I tell my guys right now is you know, you can't change anybody else around you. You can't change what they're going to do, the decisions that they're going to make, but you can change yourself. You can control your actions, how you represent the company, how you represent yourself. And absolutely, how can I get better? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 45:25

Yeah. Amazing. All right, man. So we talked about the early years, we talked about the road warrior years. And then you went into training. What the hell?

SPEAKER_01 45:35

Yeah, it was a combination of a few things, Jesse. There, and I started to recognize like my son needed a lot of help, and being on the road just wasn't the best thing for us. And we there was also a gap in the where I work right now at HIMI Systems that hey, we need a training department. We need to help our people. The construction industry is growing. There's this, that, and the other. And it just made like a perfect fit for me to come in because of the field experience that I had. And so that's where I got plugged in and segueed into trying to develop some training for our workforce. But absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 46:13

Okay, I love this. Similar, right? I was in training for a while now, and it's kind of what my business is built around. How did you go about outlining what training, where to start? What would you have told yourself back when you started, when you made the transition into training? What did you learn along the way that you would go back and say, hey, Gary, if you're gonna do this, start here?

SPEAKER_01 46:36

I mean, honestly, it was a very hard path the first couple months, right? Because going from the field mindset, you don't know anything about what it takes to set up a training department, what it's gonna take to reach your people. And so I'm spending the first 90 days trying to research what works, what's not working, what are other people doing, and trying to source that out and find something that's really gonna help us grow as a company. And so I started to understand, okay, let me take a step back. I need to assess the gaps in our workforce. Where are we failing the most? And so I just started hitting every project we had, every project we had. And I went all over the country and I started to assess every craft and every discipline, every person, all the way up from apprentice up to superintendent. And with that data, I was able to sit back and say, okay, maybe we need help in layout, maybe we need help in rigging, maybe we need help in this, maybe we're failing in communication, right? And so I could once I took all that in, I was able to put training in place to help meet that, right? So that was my first approach.

SPEAKER_00 47:46

Applause again, because I've been in situations and come in to help situations where they didn't do the leader work, and what you just described is doing the leader work of going out to the workforce where they're at and assess, see firsthand what are the gaps, what are the ones that are costing us the most money, which ones are going to give us the most juice for the squeeze, and then coming up with the plan where too many people do it the other way around. I, you know, I chat GPT'd it, or you know, this is what I've done before, this is what I these are the best practices. We've got curriculum design and all these other things that are important, but if that's the first step without actually understanding the current condition, whatever's designed kind of misses the mark and becomes this kind of okay, I got to go to this training. My assumption is because of the research that you did, when you started delivering the training, your workforce was like, Thank goodness, where has this been all my life? Is that kind of close to what you experienced?

Simple Planning Tools That Work

SPEAKER_01 48:53

Absolutely. I mean, we had really good feedback. Everybody understood that there was something needed, there was something missing, and it wasn't just with us, it's with the construction industry in a whole, right? There's not a lot of resources. There is a lot of good resources, but we're there's still a big push to bring that training to the workforce. And there's so much speed to market right now, there's so much construction going on right now, whether it's data centers, whether it's pulp and paper, whether it's you know, any type of manufacturing right now, with everything going on, with things being brought back into the states, that there's not enough people in the workforce to man these projects up. And so we're gathering people, we're going to different places and we're just hiring Jack and Sally on the side of the road or whatever as an industry, and we end up getting in trouble by OSHA incidents or you know, equipment failure, people running into things and making mistakes, and it's costing the industry a lot of money, right? And so we recognize that. And so we said, Hey, we're gonna get ahead of this, we're gonna try to make a good effort, be intentional, and put these things in place. But uh yeah, our people absolutely they loved it. People are hungry to your listeners out there. People want to learn, they want people who are gonna pour into them, they want the skills. The people, this generation that's coming up even right now, this young generation, they want to learn and retain this information, but who's gonna do it? Who's gonna take on the mantle and step up and train it? Right? That's what I that's what I'm seeing. Who's gonna take this baton and run? And so we're doing that. We did that. And we're in our lane and doing everything that we can to help advance the industry right now, and we're just trying to meet people where they're at.

SPEAKER_00 50:36

So yeah, they love it. I love it. All right, so I'm gonna ask a nosy, selfish question, Gary. Do you mind? Yep, go for it. Okay, so you and I first connected around the planning toolbox. Was that helpful? And where is it at now?

Investing In People To Win Talent

SPEAKER_01 50:53

So, with that, what we did is we broke that down. I was on a project and it got accelerated, right? And I needed something simple, fast to give to my team that would bring clarity and to a team that may not have had a lot of experience with planning. And so I needed something quick. And I saw what you were doing, and I was able to use that in a way to efficiently break down the project, right? And also get them involved in a way that wasn't so complex, like a P6, you know, schedule or anything like that. It was real, it was tangible, and it was something that could be put in place right now. It can make change now. And we accelerated that schedule, we made our margins, we did a tremendous job. We we use that thing on that project, and we still use it on our projects to this day. So, right now we teach fundamentals of crew leadership, right, through SCCER. And there's a portion in that where you're talking about three-week look aheads and you're teaching your leaders how to do that. And so we've kind of meshed the two and kind of tailored our own with their content in a way to promote that this is how HIMI Systems does this, right? Or this is how we build out a weekly look ahead or whatever. So it's really practical, right? And it helps us in a really good way. So I love it, man. It's phenomenal.

Director Of Field Ops Reality Check

SPEAKER_00 52:17

Dude, that makes me so happy. Just that it helped, right? One, that it helped you, like, because that's that's the goal. I want to help somebody solve a problem in a simple way, and the fact that y'all took it further and you know massaged it and customized it to fit your business and further help your workforce. That's my dream, man. So thank you for giving me the update because that is the ultimate. Now, I want to make a point, and I know you agree, but for the listener out there that doesn't, that's not getting it, we don't have enough people to do the work we're doing. There's a bunch of people leaving. We got a whole hell of a lot of work. We have a suicide epidemic, mental wellness, substance abuse stuff. We got a lot against us in our industry. That being said, because of that, the decision makers out there that are actually investing in their people, providing them the training, the growth experiences, etc. The people that make their people feel appreciated are gonna win the talent game. Like 100%, no doubt. I mean, I'm feeling it. I'm hell right now, guy like shit. Man, maybe I need an application so I can come be your helper or something because of the shift now and the investment y'all are making in your people. And we nobody's gonna get away with competitive salary and benefits anymore because everybody's giving that. It comes down to the investment you make in your damn people. So start investing in your people. What do you what did I miss, Gary?

SPEAKER_01 53:53

No, and I mean, that's absolutely right. I mean, right now, now I did a paper a couple months ago, like 42 and a half percent of the industry is gonna be retired in 10 years. And who's gonna trade the next generation? You know, I mean, it's ridiculous. There's gonna be a significant gap, and we're gonna feel it. We may not be feeling it to the fullest extent right now, but I can tell you it's gaining lots, right? And we have to find people who are passionate about that and companies to put things in place to help bolster that and create a bridge and a pathways for people to grow. People want clarity, people want vision, people want tools, and let's give it to them, let's give it to them. This is the booming industry right now. Construction, I can tell you that.

SPEAKER_00 54:38

You're getting me fired up, brother. I applaud you for taking on the training and doing what you did because that's a very strange world, but it's a super impactful position. So props to you, man. Now, director of field operations, is it as easy as you thought it was gonna be?

SPEAKER_01 54:57

No, no, it's not at all. It's fun because it's challenging to me and it gives you a different perspective into the business, it gives you a different perspective into your people and where they're going. It's I'm new to this, it's something that I've only been doing for I would say two and a half months now, and I'm learning each and every day, right? So I'm right in the thick of it. I'm learning as I'm going, I'm taking heed to instruction. I'm in that process, right? I'm going through the potholes, I'm going through the bumps, I'm learning, but at the same time, I'm leading, I'm helping people, I'm maintaining that training mindset. Like right now, I'm out on a project for a couple months and I'm training the field supervision so that they can succeed. But now it's instead of going one at a time or a team of superintendents, now you're you're trying to develop a project, right? And you're trying to put that together for them so that it's the same thing as a general superintendent. The name's the same, it's synonymous. So you're making sure all the processes are intact, you know, everything from project setup to project closure. Are those processes set up? Are those tracked right now? And so it's just a different shift, but with the same mentality as people, and it's been phenomenal, it's been great. I love it.

SPEAKER_00 56:13

Man, good. I'm gonna say they picked the right guy for the job. I get to work with directors of operations and general superintendents. I'm like, oh, okay. But if there's a bunch, then I'm like, yeah, like Gary's got it going on. So, two things I want to state, folks. If you're out there and you have that level of responsibility and you're looking for some insight from somebody that I give the two thumbs up five stars on, hit Gary up. I'll make sure I leave your profile link for LinkedIn in the comments because I'm assuming that you would be not opposed to sharing your insight with folks that are in a similar situation. Absolutely. Now, secondly, if somebody was looking like, you know what, this Gary dude, I want to go work with them. How do we make that happen?

SPEAKER_01 57:02

Well, it can be on my LinkedIn page, or you can go to HimeSystems.com. That's where I work right now. We're always trying to attract top talent and young and younger generation that want to learn. We're doing a lot of good things here at HIMI Systems. And uh, yeah, we have a website, we have an employment place right there. We can go click on. Um, I'll say something else that we got coming out. We have a mobile training trailer that we're going to be launching very soon. And so if you see that thing riding down the highway with the QR code, that's a way to look at what we do. That's a way to apply. Just a little segue into that right now, a little promo. But yeah, go to HimySystems.com. You can apply for what we're doing. We're working in a lot of verticals right now, whether you want to get into ironworking, no right work, tight fitting, rigging. Like we do it all. Fabrication. There's a lot of different facets to construction that we touch. So you'll learn a lot more about who we are and what we do there. But if you want to reach out to me directly in LinkedIn, I'm always there. Also, get serious.

Legacy Mindset And Closing Requests

SPEAKER_00 58:01

10. Oh, dude, well done. Well done, brother. We're gonna have to talk, tell the marketing department like, look, this is how you do it. You did good, bro. And for you know I'm goofy and silly, but I'm trying, I still haven't figured it out. But I have this weird idea of what can I do to highlight the decision makers like you, so that people that are working in like less than awesome situations can find a company, a leader that can help them thrive and grow. Like, I want I'm like a I don't know, directory of some sort because I know for a fact, and you've I'm sure you've seen this, every company's website says really fancy, flowery shit. But when you get there, it ain't like the website said, and I'm here to say that working with people like you, knowing that you're there at Hemi Systems, like that to me is an indicator that there's at least a strand of it, probably more, given the level of responsibility you have now, and that your leadership said, Hey, Gary, we need you to do this. Those to me are all indicators of that's a damn good place to work. Well, you know, somehow, somehow, maybe eventually I'll figure out how to do that so that people have the amazing experience that construction can be. Because I know there's a bunch out there that are in a miserable situation, and we got to fix that. We just got to fix that. That's right. We do. So, this question before we get into the Grand Slam home run question, what did I forget to ask you, Gary?

SPEAKER_01 59:34

Man, I think you hit everything on the mark, Jesse. I think you did a really good job. This has been a phenomenal, you know, session with you. I think we had a really good conversation, man. We got into some really good stuff. We talked about some hard times, how to approach different situations, got a little vulnerable a little bit, talked about, hey, ask for help. It's okay to take a step back. You don't have all the answers. Talked about different pathways to constructions for everybody. You don't have to be wanting to climb that ladder. You can be okay with where you're at and be really good at that. There's different, there's a place for everybody. So I think, and Jesse, I think we covered a lot of different topics here.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:11

So fantastic, man. Good. All right. So then I'm excited to hear your answer to this question because because of your path, man, you started off as a fabricator, you've bounced around into, I would say, dramatically different roles and responsibilities, and like the evolution of your thinking and your focus on leaving the construction industry better than you found it gives me some anticipation. So here's the question What is the promise you are intended to be?

SPEAKER_01 1:00:39

The promise that I am intended to be long term, the legacy that I want to leave for my kids and for the industry is like you just said, leave the industry better than you found it. What are we going to do to shape the world? What are we going to do and put into place to change our environment, to help people, to serve people? Because at the end of the day, that's what it's about serving people. How can we help them grow? And you'll always fall asleep at night and you'll have a good night's rest. Most nights, if you have that mindset, knowing that you're going to when you pursue people, when you call out the good in people, right, and you capitalize on that, make them feel appreciated, recognize them, right? You're doing your job and you have nothing to worry about. I would say that my promise to is to leave the industry better than I found it and to continue to grow people.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:39

Gangster.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:40

I knew it. I love it, man. Did you have fun, Gary? It was fun, man. It was good. Interesting. It was fun, though. I thank you so much. It was an honor, Jesse. Always an honor when you're on the horn. I wish you luck with what you're doing. You're doing phenomenal things. I don't want to sidetrack that. I know you're trying to highlight me, but Jesse, you are a leader in this industry. I'm sure you get told all the time, but you are just an achiever. You know, you are an oak of righteousness, as I would say. You do tremendous things. And I would say that you are a shaker. You're a trailblazer, you're a pioneer, and I'm just honored to know you, brother.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:18

Man, thank you. Before you go, I want to thank you for spending part of your day with me. Your time and attention mean a ton. And it's because of listeners like you that this podcast even exists. If you enjoyed today's conversation, make sure to subscribe to the Learnins and Missteps podcast so you never miss an episode and you get extra credit if you share it with your friends. Also, if you want even more insights on leadership, personal growth, communication, you know, all those fancy magical things, you can sign up for my newsletter on LinkedIn because I got a newsletter that goes out every single Monday. All the resources I share there are designed to help you put yourself first so that you can leave this world better than you found it. There's also a digital copy of my book, Becoming the Promise You're Intended to Be. And it's sitting there waiting for you on my website. All you gotta do is do the click and do the download and you get the free PDF. And if you want even more bonus points, share that PDF with somebody you know or the family of somebody you know that is currently struggling with self-destructive behavior. That would be the ultimate gift for me. While you're there, do some exploring of the trainings, workshops, and services that are designed to enhance your performance at home and at work. Just click the link in the show notes to check it out. Thanks again for listening. Take care of yourself, and I'll see you on the next episode. Peace.