HR Data Labs podcast
The HR Data Labs® podcast is dedicated to Human Resource professionals hearing the latest thoughts of innovators and experts from around the world of business focusing on HR Process, Technology, Regulations, Data and Analytics. Sometimes we may get passionate or a little carried away, but we are always fun and insightful. Podcast website at http://hrdatalabs.com. HR Data Labs is a registered trademark of David Turetsky. Reg. U.S. Pat. & TM Off.
HR Data Labs podcast
Mike Ohata – Leadership and Building a Resilient Workforce
Michael Ohata, leadership coach and former Big Four partner, joins us this episode to discuss building a resilient workforce through better talent management. He addresses the shortcomings of many organizations’ outdated talent management models, offers ideas for improvement, and speculates on how AI could enhance talent management.
[0:00] Introduction
· Welcome, Mike!
· Today’s Topic: Leadership and Building a Resilient Workforce
[5:26] What are the primary shortcomings of traditional talent management frameworks?
· Current talent management models are 25 years old
· The pandemic highlighted an already outdated system
[14:11] How can organizations retain talent while cutting costs?
· Why short-term cost cutting often sacrifices talent
· How developing detailed career frameworks benefits employees
[23:52] Why do some companies stick with underperforming talent management systems?
· Leaders’ tendency to rely on familiar processes
· How AI might transform talent management
[32:20] Closing
· Thanks for listening!
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Podcast Team
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Produced by Afogato Media
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For more HR Data Labs®, enjoy the HR Data Labs Brown Bag Lunch Hours every Friday at 2:00PM-2:30PM EST. Check it out here: https://hrdatalabs.com/brown-bag-lunch/
Produced by Affogato Media
The world of business is more complex than ever. The world of human resources and compensation is also getting more complex. Welcome to the HR Data Labs podcast, your direct source for the latest trends from experts inside and outside the world of human resources. Listen as we explore the impact that compensation strategy data and people analytics can have on your organization. This podcast is sponsored by Salary.com Your source for data, technology and consulting for compensation and beyond. Now here are your hosts, David Turetsky and Dwight Brown. Hello
David Turetsky:and welcome to the HR Data Labs podcast. I'm your host, David Turetsky, alongside my co host, best friend, comedian and salary.com, employee, Dwight Brown. Dwight Brown, how are you?
Dwight Brown:I'm great because we're having as much fun as we are
David Turetsky:And the dog is in the background, enjoying himself. If you guys only had a picture.
Dwight Brown:Did you just snort?
David Turetsky:And the reason why we're having such a great time is we have a very special guest with us. Mike Ohata, Mike, how are you?
Mike Ohata:I'm doing fantastic and getting a chuckle. Actually, you guys laugh. I should work through this.
David Turetsky:Well, when you work with people who you love, like, I love Dwight,
Dwight Brown:Exactly,
David Turetsky:We laugh most of the day. I mean, we try and get revenue as well from, you know, for our jobs. But every once in a while, we got to be serious. But yes, every once in a while, yeah. So Mike, how are you? I'm
Mike Ohata:Doing fantastic. Thank you so much for having me on the podcast here.
David Turetsky:We We love having here, and so why don't you explain to people who you are and how you got to this moment in time?
Mike Ohata:Sure, yeah. Thanks so much. So currently, I'm a leadership coach, and I also do board advisory work. Have a long history working in Big Four and fortune 15 companies and and, you know, my latest roles, before I transitioned into being a leadership coach, I was really a talent leader and chief learning officer. And so one of the things that has given me a lot of passion is just really thinking about the development of professionals over time. And one of my my past experiences, like, there was such great calibration around the workforce, and I carry that forward around, like, just that expectation and that desire with people and so, so one of the things I've done is I've really spent a lot of time thinking about this, thinking about talent, what the implications are and and I also, like, for example, I am A talent strategist and advisor to St Charles consulting, and that's where we did some work on putting together a book that called the Talent Filled Enterprise.
David Turetsky:And we'll put a link to the book in the show notes. So if any of the people listening want to take a look at your work, sure they'll have it directly to Amazon.
Mike Ohata:Thank you.
David Turetsky:If Amazon is your path of choice for selling your book
Mike Ohata:Absolutely. And there's, there's an audio version for sure, and there's so you can absolutely. Thank you.
David Turetsky:I was thinking about having having my book narrated by Morgan Freeman as an audio book. There you go, but it's a graphic novel, so it might be very difficult. So Mike, what we try and do for every guest on our podcast is we ask one fun thing that no one knows about you. Yeah,
Mike Ohata:the one sort of, I would say, nerdy kind of things is I really enjoy learning about and reading about paleoanthropology and really what it means to be human and like so, for example, one of the ones that I looked at recently, just I've been reading stuff and I watched some updated documentaries on on Homo Naledi, which was found in South Africa. And it just, you know, what they showed us around, you know, this species that live, you know, 330,000 years ago, actually buried their dead. They took it, took their bodies down into this really long, complicated tunnel. And as they were finding these bones, they were kind of curled up in a fetal position in these little, kind of little ditches. And so just really fascinating, and just raises all kind of questions around what it means to be human. And so I love it, because it takes us back to kind of just thinking about who we are as, you know, as humans, for sure,
David Turetsky:it's definitely fascinating. You know, some people, when they get to the one fun thing, some of them make us laugh, some make us cry, and some make us think that was definitely one of the deeper ones.
Dwight Brown:I know I'm I'm picturing the whole thing in my head. It is fascinating.
David Turetsky:Yeah maybe we'll get another podcast together on the Paleo anthropology thingy. But I think was what you said. So maybe we'll have to say thingy in there. No, he didn't say thingy. Yeah, you know, because I'm an idiot, Dwight, I'm gonna go back to it and say the Paleo anthropology thingy. So thingy, there you go.
Dwight Brown:Make it sound like a rubber band or something.
David Turetsky:So. Our topic for today is going to be one that's kind of fascinating, especially for people in the talent management world, where we are dealing with a lot of very complex issues on skilling, reskilling and keeping our workforces modern. Today, our topic is leadership, building a resilient workforce. You Our first question, Mike is in the Talent Filled enterprise your book, you emphasize that traditional talent management frameworks are really no longer sufficient in today's crazy you didn't say that. I did changing business environment. Can you elaborate on what you see as the primary shortcomings of the traditional approaches and why they fail to meet today's organizational needs?
Mike Ohata:Yeah, you know, this is something that I do feel like it's really important for all of us, you know, as HR leaders, as business leaders, to think about is, you know, the current model around talent really is about 25 years old now, and it's based on this notion around that we're going to feed and kind of promote, as it were, in terms of development high potentials, right? And there's a view around that managers have a key role and so forth. But what you know, we've all studied this, right? You folks know probably better than me, right? If you when you're looking at data, is this around what the generations of employees and the workforce is actually looking for, and it really has changed quite a bit. You know, first of all, we start talking about with millennials and experience, right? And there's this current focus around skills and kind of relevant work experience, and then people move on right wind back just a few years, and the pandemic punctuated this whole sort of sensibility around, you know, where people want to work, how they want to spend their time, and if you even think around like some of the really current things that are going on with employers who are asserting their control over the workforce, it's really kind of fascinating. Because aside from kind of the mandate piece of it, it's really around to me, kind of a gesture around what they what they understand. And it's completely sort of understandable, sort of model that says, hey, we typically work with you in person, so we need you to be in person, right? This is how we directed work and so forth. And really the change up in our mindset has to be, is like, how do we partner with people? How do we collaborate? How do we engage the workforce? And I would pause there, because if you think about it, what's fascinating about this is, is we use those terms all the time today to talk about what we want to do with employees. And I would actually say has a very different sensibility. They're the right words. But I think in kind of this newer model, what we need to really think about is, how am I going to work with you to figure out what's the balance around what I need you get done, right versus what you would like to get done? And if we can figure that piece out, then we're going to have actually have this totally different relationship with the workforce that's really more around partnership. Are we 100% focused on business results? Absolutely, just like some of your comments earlier, like, that's how we make money. That's how people get paid. That's how that's how variable cost gets paid out. We absolutely have a workforce that understands that, and they want something more.
David Turetsky:Yeah, I think what you're hearkening back to is the old contract we used to have where we worked for an employer. The employer had employees that wanted to work for that employer. And the model was the employer would employ you for a period of time, and there would be a very, very close, trusted relationship where the employee would invest their time. They'd invest their future. They would go on trainings for the employer. They would learn, they would grow, they would promise that they would perform at a certain level. And then the employer would reward them for short term and long term through compensation,
Mike Ohata:Right
David Turetsky:as well as, as well as rewards and as well intrinsic training and extrinsic training and and then the company would be, be, you know, would benefit through the productivity as well as that growth that kind of stopped. I mean, that trusted relationship has stopped. Thank you, Jamie Diamond, as well as you know, a lot of other business leaders saying, I don't trust people anymore. As to your point, Mike, I want to see them, I want to command and control them. And so I guess where I'm going with this is that model is definitely old, and it's broken, and it's getting I mean, the pandemic didn't break it. I think business leaders are now breaking it by saying, Look, we're going to lay you off eventually. Anyways,
Mike Ohata:Yeah, I think the pandemic was an inflection point, wasn't it on something that was already taking place, and you're right, and so and it's understandable that business leaders want to go back to what they've known operationally, because they grew up in this operational kind of scheme, right or system they worked for them and and that's not wrong, but I would just say that it's not matched to what's going on with employees. Use in the workforce today,
David Turetsky:Especially generationally,
Mike Ohata:Generationally, yup
Dwight Brown:yeah, you know, the pandemic and the period after, with the great resignation and what that did to the contract that you're talking about. You know, how much was leading up to this versus how much was sort of the big bang with this, would you say?
Mike Ohata:Well, you know, I don't know if I have kind of the perfect answer. I do just, I feel like the pandemic was a punctuation point, and it had to do with sort of this kind of broadly experienced, sort of life and death kind of contemplation, right? And so, you know, when we're talking about humans and what it means to be human, what's really fascinating is watching come to the foreground this whole consideration, I think, on some level, right, that felt like a long time when we're going through it. Like, what's important to me? Like, what do I really want to get out of my day job? What do I want to get out of my gig? And for, I think for most of I would say corporations and business leaders, etc, it probably felt like this huge punch. And I would just say, yeah, no, it just accelerated. Something was already happening. And so to me, what's really, what I appreciate about kind of this really unfortunate and traumatic kind of time is it gives us the opportunity to kind of rethink how we want to deal with people or employees.
Dwight Brown:Sure.
David Turetsky:Unfortunately, though, what a lot of employees are seeing right now is not skill building, it's not retraining. It's when the economy is shifting, and we see retrenchment in certain sectors, that the first knee jerk reaction of every business leader is, I'm going to cut a 10% across the board. And I'm not even talking about what's going on the government right now. I'm talking politically, sorry, apolitically, that the first knee jerk reaction, instead of skill building, instead of reskilling, and instead of being able to use a resource that you are familiar with and are known quantity, you're just going to chop them off.
Mike Ohata:Yeah, that's it. Yeah, it's a really great point. And, you know, there's sort of two, two aspects to the right to that comment is, one is that we kind of get, we all get, it's uncomfortable. It's disruptive. It can, you know, some it may be more disruptive for others, but we, we get that like, there's this short term right, business results focus, and so we're going to cleave off, you know, say, 10% of the workforce, to use your example, and then later on, we scratch your head and go like, Well, where did all the talent go? Right? Exactly, right. And it'd be really interesting, but this requires an investment. So I'm not trying to be naive here, but it says, Well, okay, we got to cut some expense. And can we also invest in our people for tomorrow? Because it's, you know, business doesn't exist just in this point in time of cost cutting. There's kind of a long term lifespan to it. And so that's where I wouldn't call it short sighted. I would just say that we're probably optimized around the short term results versus the long term capability development of the organization. And if we can figure out ways to do both of those, that'd be really good. So let me give you an example, like, could you? Could you do this? But also kind of say, okay, when we come out of this, 30 days from now, 90 days from now, what are the kind of the set of skills that we need in our people? What are the kind of the core attributes that we need? Because they're gonna actually need to be the workforce that actually carries us for the next three to five years, or whatever the time frame is. We're not asking those questions while we're doing the cost cutting. And what I would would ask, or kind of advise news and say, Are there ways that we can do this do both right? Maybe not in every department or every function right? Maybe not in every segment of the business, but the long term bet is actually the capability that's actually going to get us to sustainable growth and so forth, right?
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Dwight Brown:You know, it's interesting the how the pendulum is swung. I was optimistic that when the pandemic hit and we had the great resignation, we had a lot of remote work. And there was, you know, the contract was changing, and I was optimistic that it was going to change for the long term. But it's gone back. And, you know, frankly, I call it lazy leadership, when the first thing that you do is say, All right, we're, we're going to cut head count, it's total lazy leadership, as opposed to what you're talking about with, Hey, how can we have a plus and with this, you know, because we got to cut costs, you've got to do something to save the company. It's, you know, but it's a matter of being creative, figuring out, as you're talking about, where are you going to invest in your people, realizing that. That's going to benefit your business so much better when the pendulum swings again. And
Mike Ohata:it's tough. It's tough, you know, to interject a little bit of like, what I would say, kind of an empathetic view, right to the business leader and the HR leaders, is that there's just 100 things going on every day, right during the pandemic, coming out of it, and it's, it's, it's, you know, on one level, like I kind of hear like, or have sensed and watched and experienced, like, just people being exhausted with kind of making all these changes. So there is, there is a sort of this real desire to get back to whatever, you know, new normal is. And we went through all those terms right then and so forth. But it's really where I think it's the focus. The things that focus on are Dwight or like, what you're saying is like, how do you, how do you get some creativity in there? How do you get some courage in there? How do you, how do you think about a new equation for people? Right? And the tendency is to kind of go with with what we know now that might, you know, that might be interpreted as kind of like, well, you know, you could do better. But I what I would try to say, like, it's, it's not wrong, it's just that it's kind of an obvious answer. What else could we do, right, right, right to, kind of, to give a little bit of space for folks to, kind of, like, grow into, like, like, we got a real, so, a real kind of opportunity with talent. So here's kind of the thing that's going on, right? That there's this whole discussion that's coming, and you're starting to hear it more and more, right? This all this talk about talent, I'm going, like, in everybody's guts, they kind of know this people problem is one that they got to figure out, right? And we, in the past, we kind of went through the cultured conversations and all that. And I was actually listening to a podcast this morning, and someone was talking about all the culture work, and I said, and I was kind of thinking, like, can we stop talking about culture and just get at the vibe? And I'm not trying to be sort of like simplistic about overly simplistic, but vibe actually is much harder work than culture, is what I argue, because it actually has it's going to get down to intentionality, right? But think about all the thing like, what do we really what's your real intentions with our people to create talent like that and like and that's not, it's not just how much we pay them. It's like, how do we work with them, right? We're back to, how do we partner with them? Because we tend to think, right? And kind of this, this notion of compensation is that, oh, people just want compensation. It's like, well, compensation is a form of recognition,
David Turetsky:yes,
Mike Ohata:But people really want something more. So let's focus on what that something more is, and then compensation is a great compliment to that. But if you're only doing compensation, well, there's no set of dollars that are actually going to ever fulfill what everybody's going to want if you only focus on money.
David Turetsky:Well, the state of Colorado is actually trying to step a little bit forward in that thinking, forward thinking in that which is that they're trying to take on the the career aspect of rewards. And so if, if you're familiar with the pay transparency in Colorado, they are requiring companies to have a career framework where an employee can see, where can my career go? Where is my next step? What skills and training do I need to get to that?
Mike Ohata:There you go. That is very forward looking. And I have heard about that. And that's absolutely what people want. And it's like, that's what I want to do. Well, I don't want to do that
David Turetsky:Well. And you know what's funny, Mike is, I don't hear any resistance from Colorado companies saying this is a dumb idea. It's a wonderful idea. It's a phenomenal thing that Colorado is actually requiring companies have this. We should have every company required to have this, but it's not. And when we start working with Colorado clients, they're like, All right, so what do we do to have to be transparent and to be compliant with this? And the answer is, well, even if you have operations outside of Colorado, use the same frameworks. Just build a framework that works for your organization. Care about the fact that employees now need to be able to, you know, chart their path. There you go. Now you're creating an opportunity for people to get rewarded for their longevity as well as for their skill building, and be able to see a path forward.
Mike Ohata:Yeah, and transparency does all kinds of de risking, right? It de risks the folks leave right because now, for example, in a de risk litigation saying, Well, you didn't give me what I was going to get out of my job, or a site, or you put me in a role that I didn't sign up for, you know, and all those kinds of things. Because now it's all kind of out there. And then I believe over time, it starts to solve this macro economic thing around how people move around in the marketplace, right? So like you're saying, Well, I'm I have these skills, but I want to go into these other skills, and I want to go learn these skills, and you can kind of pursue it like so now the market's starting to sort out this basic, like onboarding training problem that we've been dealing with for decades, right? Because now you're like, systematically saying, like, no, these, all the things that we expect you to have, these all. Things we're going to do, work with you and develop right? And if that's not what you want to do, you can go do something else, but at least the system now of your organization can kind of deal with people coming in.
David Turetsky:Isn't it fascinating when you're giving people the tools they need to make decisions about their career and their future?
Mike Ohata:Yeah, they're going to make they're going to make great decisions.
David Turetsky:Well, at least they're going to make informed decisions. They may still make dumb decisions, but at least those dumb decisions are informed by real information that you know enables them to make. People don't make mature decisions. They make decisions you know. They they kind of knee jerk sometimes, like I just had a crappy discussion with my boss, and so I'm going to quit forgetting about the fact that I've got long term incentives that are going to vest next month, and, you know, potentially make me rich. Yeah, people make stupid mistakes all the time.
Mike Ohata:Yeah, I would say it's a great decision because it's informed, like you said, but it's one that the person owns,
David Turetsky:yes,
Mike Ohata:Right? And if you can get that ownership in there, like, that's huge, right? Because one of the things right, we've all experienced in the workforce is a sense of sort of helplessness, or like, kind of being disempowered, right, or being disengaged. And if that provides agency for the workforce and employees, that's a good thing that then they can make it may not be a the perfect decision, but it's good, and at least the starting point that they own it.
Dwight Brown:And it's a good long term it's good long term play from the from two angles. Number one, from the angle of business, because you're investing in your people, and you're going to have the natural ebbs and flows and and, and when it is time to make the decision to do a reduction in force, then people are better positioned and better cushioned to be able to move into jobs at other companies, you know, as opposed to, you know, all of a sudden my job is gone and I'm going, Oh no, what? What am I going to do?
Mike Ohata:Yeah, and this takes us right back to that kind of early part of the conversation, that if you have this discipline as an organization, and you have like an enterprise skills, either mindset and framework in place, so to speak, then when you're doing like this reduction, you're actually having this whole conversation like, what are the ones, what are the skills I absolutely need to retain? Right? Not
Dwight Brown:exactly,
Mike Ohata:And they have to go beyond the technical and the superficial things. But what are those longer term ones, right? They're going to make us sustainable, capable, right? And so forth. So, like, who, who are the people that have the burst best kind of ability to learn, right? Who are the people that have the best sort of sense of adaptability? You know, I use, I often use kind of that, that the attributes by by divinity, like he talks about, like in the seals, like the person has to swim across the pool holding their breath. And there's a person that, a candidate, that drags himself on the bottom of the pool because they don't, they don't know how to swim. It's like, I can't teach you that level of tenacity, but I can teach you to swim like, we can teach you to swim, and we're like, but that kind of core sort of characteristic that's like, what do you need there for tomorrow, right, while you're taking out costs over here, and it might be tough right on those people that may like, maybe not be showing up 100% but that could also be a good message too, like, As you go transparently right to Colorado, State of Colorado, we're looking for this in our workforce.
David Turetsky:Hey, are you listening to this and thinking to yourself, Man, I wish I could talk to David about this. Well, you're in luck. We have a special offer for listeners of the HR Data Labs podcast, a free half hour call with me about any of the topics we cover on the podcast, or whatever is on your mind, go to salary.com/hrdlconsulting to schedule your free 30 minute call today. Let's transition to our next question, which is we talked about some of the interesting things that we've seen happen. Why are some companies sticking with outdated systems that that really are causing problems for their employees, and really are going to, going to set them back, probably a ways, um,
Mike Ohata:You know, I think it's, it's kind of on them, on the theme of, like, people focus on and organizations focus on what they know, right, and what's sort of worked over time, and get that things like the focus on high potentials, and mostly the brand investment goes to high potentials, you know, is built into the performance management systems, right? So then it's built into the tools. And so, like, systemically, it's, actually, it's actually sort of kind of brittle, like it's built in, so it's hard, it's really hard for organizations to step away from some of this. Now, I think the there's sort of this retort that would say, like, hey, you know, like, well, we're not only focused on on high potentials. We're going to make a differentiated. An investment. And I think that the concept of differentiated investment is the saying, like, we're going to focus on high potentials, they get leadership development, and everybody, everybody else gets training. And I'm like, how does that work? And so, like, one of the things I would ask leaders to do is go back and talk to your talent and learning teams and take a really hard look at your leadership development programs, how much of that is remediation, and that's actually one of the things when I was, when I was Chief Learning officers, is the leadership development team came to me and said, like, we've done this whole analysis, like, and these programs are all about, you know, the recognition. There's not a lot of development going on here. These things are all like, remediating, kind of like go to market skills that our leaders should have and, you know? And so their point was, like, the systems kind of busted, right? So this is one thing. And so you're constantly, you know, leaders are kind of stuck in this remediation program with leadership development, because they haven't actually spent the time to go and build in this leadership development that actually works across your organization. Now, the people are more conservative fiscally was saying, well, that's a huge investment. I'm going like, no, it's a trade off decision.
David Turetsky:Yeah,
Mike Ohata:That's really what it is like. Are you going to spend millions and millions of dollars with this small group, or are you going to try to spread some of that across so actually, by the time they get to these leadership roles, they're a much better place. And that's mindset. I mean, that's really a mindset piece of it, and it's, it's, and here's where I would say is one of the things that keep people stuck in this model is that we think that high potentials deserve more, right? And I think in a merit based sort of mind frame that's, you know, that's kind of where we go to. And again, I would say, and what can we do to develop all people, right? And so instead of kind of excluding folks, is like, what, what can we do to kind of actually create this, this framework that actually does more for the development of our people, so that they can kind of come up and actually be better leaders and over time. You know, the theory would work would be as it you know, the workforce is actually stronger, more capable.
David Turetsky:Do you think your answer changes in a world where Gen AI and AI is more prevalent, where maybe getting individualized assistance for the mass would be easier, because we can use models to figure out what the gaps are, that each person might have high potential or not,
Mike Ohata:yeah,
David Turetsky:and and actually use more use assessments to be able to figure it out, and then use the AI to help train those away,
Mike Ohata:yeah, I would say that The short answer would be yes. Like, if you take kind of the long history of automation, right? And to AI, it's around, you're going to displace work that sort of task space, right? That's like some of the low hanging fruit, which kind of frees you up to focus on other kinds of work and so forth, which then drives other skills and so forth. I know there's a lot of focus on, you know, AI using for like, sort of routine, sort of, like training and coaching, like AI can develop, you know, the content, for example, a lot of times, you know, organizations get really hyper focused on, like, the quality of a training, right? That's, that's kind of one of those big learning things. And I just said, like, again, what are you trying to get get done here? Like, you know, is good enough, good enough to get us through the skills that we need right? And then kind of move on. And then, again, to your point, like, use AI to kind of like, up things like, like, yeah, to what point can we review a person's set of work? What's in their in their CV, what's what's been in their projects, to actually understand, well, hey, we think you have these skills, and we're looking for you to do these things like and I think right now we just, we don't have enough of the data, I think, to kind of go after those things. But so then it's like figuring how kind of organization we begin to sort of instrument ourselves right into kind of operating with AI that way. So this, I think the opportunities will continue to grow, but we're just getting started here.
Dwight Brown:It's it's interesting, the the footer of my email is something that I saw that really resonates with this, AI won't replace people. People using AI will replace people not using AI. And I think
David Turetsky:Is that your quote, or is that somebody something?
Dwight Brown:No, I stole that from someone. It was some someone much more brilliant than me, but I liked it so much I put it on my email.
David Turetsky:There you go,
Dwight Brown:Because I think it gets to exactly the point that you're that you're talking about. And it really kind of weaves into this topic and and whether it's AI or other, uh, sort of people, replacement pieces of things, it's it. The theme is always the same.
David Turetsky:Dwight, go back 20 years and we are having the same conversation about computers in the workforce, right? Yeah. You know, I tell the story all the time about how to I went to a corporate headquarters of a large automobile manufacturer, and they had one computer in the center of the room. And I said, where's mine? And they said it we share that departmental computer, right? And I and I said, what? I just finished my four years of college using a computer. I'm not going back. And they're like, well, that's the way we work. And I was like, No, it isn't. I'm not going to be there. So I mean, but Mike, we've kind of gotten spoiled. And to Dwight's point, it's now going to become a new tool in our belt that we have to figure out how, and just like that, it's another skill, right that we either make use of. Or, you know, yeah, find yourself on the cutting room floor
Mike Ohata:Absolutely. And I do, I do see like in, in the discussion, right is that there is this awareness, right? Is around, really, AI should really begin to highlight what the role of humans are in all of this, right? And, and, and that's, that's been even true of just thinking about how robotics have worked, right? Because it's, it's, it's not an elimination of humans. It's around, well, how robots work. And I, I often think around, like Amazon Logistics, like, I just they spend so much time. And it's actually people were worried, well, you're gonna, you're gonna eliminate workers. Actually, there's more employees working in logistics today than there were before. And there's, there's, there's many more robots working at the same time, right?
David Turetsky:Don't watch Galactica,
Mike Ohata:But I love Battlestar Galactica though
David Turetsky:I love because Cylons wanted to eliminate us after a while, because we were, we were really mean to them, but, but I mean to your point, though, it starts other industries that other people have to focus on different things and re skilling, then becomes not just one company's problem, it becomes every company's problem, right?
Mike Ohata:And then add your transparency to that, and now the whole market actually starting to work in coordination. And that's, you know, I, you know, we're all capitalists on some level, so to speak, right? And I said, like, that's good for everybody. That's good for business, yep,
David Turetsky:Mike, we could talk about this forever, but unfortunately, we were running out of time, so we're going to have to ask you back and talk about how the Cylons are going to take over. But thank you so much. It's been a pleasure having you on the HR data labs podcast.
Mike Ohata:Yeah. Thank you so much. I appreciate it.
Dwight Brown:And Dwight, thank you. Thank you. We appreciate you being here. Always, always good talking with you, and like David said, we'll have to have you back.
David Turetsky:And thank you all for listening, take care and stay safe.
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