Desiree Goldey - Why Organizational Confusion Fails Employees

Desiree Goldey, Director of Marketing at ZRG Partners and Founder of Do Better Consulting, joins us this episode to discuss how the disconnect between talent and HR teams impacts an organization’s employees, both current and future. 

[0:00] Introduction

• Welcome, Desiree!
• Today’s Topic: Fixing the Disconnect Between Talent and HR Teams

[4:32] How do we know there’s a disconnect between talent and HR?

• Root causes of talent-HR miscommunications
• Challenges in transforming company cultures

[10:53] How does the disconnect impact the recruiting process?

• How candidates experience a company’s confusion and mixed messaging
• Resume insights and advice, including why AI tools are essential in applicant-heavy job markets

[24:30] How does the disconnect affect employee engagement?

• The toll on company culture and morale
• Challenges facing remaining employees after a significant layoff

[36:10] Closing

• Thanks for listening!

Quick Quote

“When there’s a state of confusion [within a company], who suffers? It’s the employee.”

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Produced by Affogato Media

Transcript

Announcer: 0:01

The world of business is more complex than ever. The world of human resources and compensation is also getting more complex. Welcome to the HR Data Labs podcast, your direct source for the latest trends from experts inside and outside the world of human resources. Listen as we explore the impact that compensation strategy, data and people analytics can have on your organization. This podcast is sponsored by salary.com Your source for data technology and consulting for compensation and beyond. Now here are your hosts, David Turetsky and Dwight Brown.

David Turetsky: 0:38

Hello and welcome to the HR Data Labs podcast. I'm your host, David Turetsky, and we have a fun one for you today. We have our friend Desiree Goldey. Desiree, how are you?

Desiree Goldey: 0:48

I am doing so good, David. It's lovely, lovely Thursday here today in Austin, so I'm doing great.

David Turetsky: 0:55

And I'm in Boston, relative to Austin, and it's cold. We have not shaken winter yet, and we're not going to for at least another, I don't know, probably month, and it is cold.

Desiree Goldey: 1:11

Yeah, we are in this snap freeze that we always have in February for a week. So it's cold here too to us, it was 19 last night, so in Austin, that's like the end of the world, yes?

David Turetsky: 1:25

Well, it's 19 here now, and it's not the end of the world, but it's really cold outside.

Desiree Goldey: 1:33

Yeah, yeah.

David Turetsky: 1:34

So Desiree, why don't you tell us a little bit about yourself?

Desiree Goldey: 1:37

Yeah. So currently, I'm the director of marketing and culture at ZRG Partners, who are global talent advisory firm. I also own my own consulting company called Do Better Consulting. I've been in the talent and HR space for a little bit, but my background really started in sales and marketing consumer foods and hospitality. So

David Turetsky: 1:58

and if you'd see the jacket she's wearing now. It screams marketing, because it is literally her brand. She is. It is an amazing blazer that basically has like, tons of articles. It's a black and white blazer. It's just cool. I wish you could see it.

Desiree Goldey: 2:17

cool things from actual news. So it's actually a cool, really cool jacket,

David Turetsky: 2:31

and that is how I will describe Desiree. She is just cool. But before we get into our podcast today, what's one fun thing that no one knows about, Desiree,

Desiree Goldey: 2:42

yeah, I don't know that. No one knows it, but most people are going to be a little shocked. I hate chocolate.

David Turetsky: 2:51

So that was the HR Data Labs podcast. Thank you for joining so, so, so, just so you know, I love chocolate. In fact, I have to have chocolate in my stomach at least once a day or I get depressed.

Desiree Goldey: 3:06

Oh my gosh, you're like my partner. So annoying, so annoying.

David Turetsky: 3:11

So, so it's okay to have it around the house though

Desiree Goldey: 3:13

it is because I won't eat it, no.

David Turetsky: 3:17

So never a Reese's Peanut Butter Cup,

Desiree Goldey: 3:19

or every once in a while, but it doesn't thrill me like it thrills other people, and I get

David Turetsky: 3:25

chocolate ice cream.

Desiree Goldey: 3:27

No, I actually don't even like ice cream death, but,

David Turetsky: 3:29

oh my god, what are you

Desiree Goldey: 3:32

I don't know, but you would wonder why I'm not super skinny.

David Turetsky: 3:36

Okay, for the record, I don't, and I'm just saying this. I don't see anything wrong with you, but, but that being said, Death by Chocolate ice cream with a chocolate shell on top, to me, is close to heaven as you can get. And by the way, if you're eating Death by Chocolate, you're probably gonna die from it.

Desiree Goldey: 3:57

a chips girl, I'm a chick. Oh, really. Give me a big bag of Doritos, and I could sit there all day. Okay, it's a problem.

David Turetsky: 4:04

Well, next time I meet you all, I'll send some Doritos. How about that?

Desiree Goldey: 4:08

Thank you.

David Turetsky: 4:10

So our topic for today is going to be really cool. It's going to be talking about something that is near and dear to a lot of the people who listen to our podcast heart, which is the disconnect between talent and HR and how that impacts recruiting and employee engagement and culture Desiree, what is that disconnect between talent and HR, and how can you tell? What are the signs?

Desiree Goldey: 4:39

Yeah, I think this is a, you know, it's an interesting fact that I've been milling around for years. Is about why I feel always when I work in organizations that have a HR function and a talent function, why there's so much miscommunication, I feel like the goals and objective of HR should. Line with what the goals and objectives of talent are, but it doesn't seem to ever really meet and and it causes, you know, things like high turnover rates, employee disengagement, misalignments in expectations and comp and all these crazy things that start to happen, but we continually do the same thing, right? We're not fixing that.

David Turetsky: 5:23

But can you just do me a favor? Step back a second for one second. What do you mean by talent? Because I've been in some organizations where talent is recruiting. Are you talking about talent that includes performance management, succession, com,

Desiree Goldey: 5:36

I'm talking about the full talent scopes and Talent Management Development, right. I'm talking about the whole thing. I'm not just talking about finding a job. Okay, right? All right, right. So and again, if you, if you are talking about talent as a whole, that disconnect almost becomes even wider, yeah, between HR and talent.

David Turetsky: 5:59

So is talent in this world is talent in underneath the talent underneath the CHRO, though, yes,

Desiree Goldey: 6:04

well, yes, if you have one, right?

David Turetsky: 6:08

But then, don't you think the alignment, and I'm not picking on CHRO, there used to be one, but don't you think that that alignment needs to come from the CHRO, if not from the CEO?

Desiree Goldey: 6:18

Yeah, I totally agree with it, right? We always talk about it. Everything needs to come from the top. But I do think that HR leaders and who are sit underneath the CHRO, and talent leaders that sit underneath the CHRO tend to struggle and conflict against each other for some reason, right? They get in meetings and they just can't seem to agree what the the end goal is, yes, I agree the CHRO should be the ultimate decision maker, right? But I don't know why we can't even have those conversations, up to the fact when we get to the CR HRO,

David Turetsky: 6:53

is it because the alignment on what things I mean? Could it be as basic is being able to understand what the goals of the organization are. Is it understanding the business? What are those symptoms? What, what, where? Where are we going? Wrong?

Desiree Goldey: 7:11

Yeah. I mean, I think there's a couple of things. I think there's definitely cultural misalignment, right? What is the culture we're trying to build here? What is the, you know, the objectives and vision of the company, right? We all, you know, you can look at a mission vision value statement and and read it, but what are the true objectives and expectations under those mission vision and values? And I feel so many companies don't do that extra step, and so then you get this constant misalignment and butting of heads between HR and talent right as you go down and drill into it. I hope that makes sense.

David Turetsky: 7:48

Oh, it totally makes sense. And I think it's, I don't want to say lazy, but I think a lot of times we put up that mission, vision values on our website, we point to it a lot, and we say, well, that's, that's what our goal is. But they really don't have any way of being able to translate into operations, right and, and I'm not even going to lay this at the talent leader or the HR leader. It's not really them, and it's not even the CHRO. The ability to create the right culture comes from, as you said, the top but it also permeates a lot of the decisions that are made throughout the organization. So you can say culture as much as you want when you're in HR, but unless you're business leaders and your leaders and your managers and even your employees, unless they align to it, it ain't happening.

Desiree Goldey: 8:34

Oh, I totally agree. I mean, we I am. So I'm actually sick of the word culture. It's starting to drive me a little nuts, like chocolate. What is your culture? What's your culture?

David Turetsky: 8:45

What's your culture? The new chocolate is what you're saying.

Desiree Goldey: 8:48

I wish that more people talked about the actual objectives, yes, instead of talking about the culture like that, I'm doing air quotes, you know, because I don't, I don't know if most people get to define the objectives of the culture that they work in. And I think you're right. Operationally, we don't drill down into what that actually means. And then we get misaligned, not just in HR and talent, but we get it everywhere, right?

David Turetsky: 9:16

Well, you would have heard it just recently, where, whether it's Facebook or meta, whether you're listening to Jamie Dimon for JP, Morgan Chase, whether you're talking about well, the federal government, there has been so much whiplash that employees have had about what's their culture and how do they act, and how do they react, and how Do they service their clients that I think a lot of employees struggle to understand, not just culture, but operational. You know, you're talking about goals, right? Operational, tactical stuff. How do I get my job done if my leaders are saying one thing, but we've been working so well the other way, and I. I kind of like it. So what am I going to do?

Desiree Goldey: 10:02

Yeah, and then if you're a leader in that organization, right? And you're, you have a leadership style, you've been doing leadership, you're, you're hitting your goals, you're doing all these things, suddenly you have to make this huge switch. All of your people are freaking out. You don't know what to do, because you don't even understand now, we've got huge misalignment, right, right? And how you develop those people in a culture that does that, right? And talent and HR, have to worry about that. So

David Turetsky: 10:30

tell me you've solved that, and world peace is next, right?

Desiree Goldey: 10:33

I know, right. I mean, this is not a solution. No,

David Turetsky: 10:38

no, no. We're just highlighting it now. We're just highlighting it now, yeah,

Announcer: 10:42

like what you hear so far. Make sure you never miss a show by clicking subscribe. This podcast is made possible by Salary.com. Now, back to the show.

David Turetsky: 10:53

Let's, let's go to question two, because I think this is actually kind of cool, and it does talk to, like, a little bit of how you deal with this whip lash, which is, how does that disconnect, and how does that difference in operations actually impact the recruiting process?

Desiree Goldey: 11:09

Oh my gosh. I mean, we could talk about this all day, but, I mean, it takes it longer to Yeah, yeah. It really is an own subject, but longer time to fill jobs candidate experience is horrifying. You know, I just, I went through this whole thing with a candidate recently, and at the end, towards offer, we went from remote to you are five days in the office. Can you imagine? No going through six, like, six interviews, and now all of a sudden they're like, Hey, you want it remote, but we're going to send you right back to the office.

David Turetsky: 11:45

Well, let me ask you a question about that Desiree, because that's actually very interesting. What has to happen within that conversation to resell that person now that you've changed the game on them, you've literally changed the content of their job. You've changed their role. Now they have to think about, you know, child care. They have to think about, you know, commuting. They have to think about a lot of things or wardrobe. They have to think about a lot of things that they they didn't have to consider before. Where do you go? Where do you start?

Desiree Goldey: 12:15

Yeah, I mean, in this particular example, I mean, we had to resell the position right from the from scratch, and then you have to sell all the other things that go into the do the role, growth, opportunity, all of those things that you're you probably may be highlighted a little bit, but now you have to dig in real deep and prove to that candidate that this is their career path and sometimes, and in this case, it didn't work, by the way,

David Turetsky: 12:45

yeah, so, I mean, you're right. We're probably going to dig into this more than we should. But this, this again, I'll use the word whip lash, this change in direction, this misalignment that occurs. How does that change the way the recruiter would actually have to go about these things if they knew about it from the start. I mean, obviously it's easier to sell someone when you're not changing mid game, you're changing the story mid game. But it's literally about the brand. You're there's a lot of change about the brand, especially if it's very public like meta or JP Morgan Chase, where, you know, there have been missteps.

Desiree Goldey: 13:23

No, yeah, absolutely. I mean, recruiters are sales people in the end too, you know. And I think that they're quick on their feet, and can adapt to things fairly quickly, and they can sell the dream even if it isn't the dream, but Right, but as as talent leaders, and you know, we shouldn't be putting them or CHROs, we shouldn't be putting them at in that position, but it's happening every day. So I think that if you give them the directive, they're really good. Yes, they can switch midstream, but if you give them the directive, and let's say your culture is horrible, you know, I know recruiters that could still sell everything you know, a dream. So I think you setting those objectives of what that looks like for them, it is key to how they bring in candidates. Now you can argue with me that, you know, we, you know, recruiters, that shouldn't be a recruiter's job is to to figure all of that out. And I, I do agree with that, though I think recruiters should be business partners, yep, right. And so, you know, I think that they have a responsibility to some of this as well.

David Turetsky: 14:37

Well, when it changes mid course, well, that's the worst. That's, that's, that's hard, yeah, but when it starts out where the requisition already says, you know, in the office five days a week, I think it's a little easier, not only for the recruiter, but also for the candidates. Yeah, to budget for those things, and you might actually get a completely different candidate pool. Oh, absolutely. Who either? Lives near the office, or who doesn't doesn't mind being in the office five days a week, or who enjoys it? I mean, obviously there are people who, you know, love hybrid, they love remote, but they also, there are people who love being in the office five days.

Desiree Goldey: 15:13

They do. Yeah, they do. And I think if you again, you know, job descriptions for me are everything you know, laying out as much as you can in the job description is key, and switching, especially remote hybrid in office, to me, is one and comp, right? Those are the next thing, but remote in office and hybrid are one of the keys to an essential to a good job description right now, because there are people that have so many expenses, and this job market is crazy, this economy is crazy, and they have to figure that in to what they're even asking for, or whether the comp meets their needs. So it gets a little crazy when we start to talk about some of these things.

David Turetsky: 15:54

Let me. Let me kind of go back to though, one of the things that's a little bit more important for the impact on the recruiting process, which is, now there's a lot of supply out there. Let's call the demand side the recruiter side and the supply side the people side. There are a lot of people who are going to be on the street. We already know the federal government is going to be cutting like crazy. We know a lot of organizations are basically saying, I'm going to cut 10% here, 5% there or wherever, some of which came from, even COVID days of they hired up a lot of people. Yeah. But so the supply side is getting more the demand side is maybe changing a little bit, maybe not even near that. So does this create a little bit more of a buyer's market for the recruiter to be able to be a little bit more picky?

Desiree Goldey: 16:45

Yeah. I mean, whenever we get into these with this market where there was so much supply, we get pickier and pickier and pickier, and then hiring managers get pickier and pickier, and it's not some and I don't think then I'm going to say this, and probably people will disagree. I don't even think it's the recruiter. I think it's the hiring manager, right? The hiring manager knows there's a lot of supply out there. There's tons of applications coming in, and they can be more picky, and that when you see these influx of, like, 1000 people applied on LinkedIn, which, by the way, is not a true number, but 1000 people applied in 60 minutes, you know those it makes a recruiter that much more able to be pickier, and that causes what I see as a problem for organizations who are looking for the right fit for growth. I don't know if I'm making no,

David Turetsky: 17:38

you're making total sense, but my problem is, I'm going to say this again, and people are probably tired of me, probably tired of hearing me say, this is the AI standing in the way of that recruiter getting the best candidate when they've got so many. You talk about 1000 you said, No, it's not real, but let's just say it is real. Sure, 1000 people who've already applied, probably 10,000 more who would have applied, but they saw 1000 said, I have no chance. I'm not going to apply. The AI is going scrubbing through it and saying, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, yes, no, no, no, no, no, no, yes, no, no. Sorry, that's a lot of no's. But do you see what I'm saying? I mean, does that make the job of the recruiter easier or more difficult.

Desiree Goldey: 18:23

I mean, if you would ask me, it makes it more it makes it easier, but it also makes me potentially miss out on some really awesome candidates.

David Turetsky: 18:35

How would you as a recruiter deal with 1000 applications? 1000 resumes, 2000 coming your way. If you didn't have the AI in the way, you know, you didn't have an automatic screening tool, or, you know, even a screener that that each person took, like an assessment, a five question assessment, and the people who got the five highest scores, or the where everybody got a perfect score comes your way. How do you deal with all that?

Desiree Goldey: 19:05

These days, it is a nightmare, right? Even if we put the best scrubbing tools, we're still getting influxes, huge influxes, of candidates, just because of the way the market is right now. And as a recruiter, let's say you're holding 15 roles, 20 roles, you don't have time. So your your assessment of people's resumes is in a second. I mean, if you've been doing this long enough, like I have, you can do that, but it still takes a ton of time. And I, you know, I as a person, am responsible for going through every single one of those resumes to me, right? And it's exhausting, and it's mind blowing, and you don't want to miss anything, and there will be misses, right? Yeah, and it's unfortunate, but it's the way the world we live in right now, and so you're spending, you know, less than. 30 seconds on a resume,

David Turetsky: 20:02

so a lot of Red Bull.

Desiree Goldey: 20:05

I mean recruiters. I mean, I think that's the way we live anyway, yeah. But the other problem is, you know, I tell people this all the time on LinkedIn, and this goes kind of off subject, and I'll talk to, you know, job seekers a little bit here, but the when I see these really unclean resumes that are all junked up. I don't have time to assess those the way I have. That's super clean. And you know that for me, if you think about the 2000 scenario, if, if you're sitting as a person who has to go through 2000 resumes, yeah, the unclean ones kind of gets because I don't want time to decipher, yeah.

David Turetsky: 20:43

Are you talking about the ones that have a lot more formatting? They may have a picture on it, or they may have a beach scene or something like that, or that's what I'm talking Yeah. Okay, so, so your advice to people is, cut through the BS, yes, and just put on there what you're trying to do to sell them,

Desiree Goldey: 20:59

right? Just gives me the gives me what you did and the accomplishments you had. That's what I need. I don't need all the other stuff. You know, if you want to put a pretty color in your here on your name, or make the lines right purple, I don't care. But like, when you start putting them side by side, and it drives me insane. But

David Turetsky: 21:21

a lot of times aren't those sanitized. Anyways, when you upload your resume,

Desiree Goldey: 21:25

not all the time, oh, really, no, sometimes you get them when you're like one, and also when they're unclean, like that, sometimes they come in the system and it jumbles everything up. So then you have to figure out where things go. If I have less than 30 seconds to decipher whether you're the fit for the role. Guess what?

David Turetsky: 21:44

So I got to date myself here, 1989 the advice that I had from, I guess it was my career counselor at Penn State, or whatever was, it's got to be on yellow paper. It's got to be in, you know, typed single space center, your name center, your address center, your phone number, and then everything's got to be left justified. Don't be fancy, just put everything down. And it had to be on that white paper. You had to fold it the with the cover letter. I remember those days.

Desiree Goldey: 22:14

I graduated in 96 from college, and I remember those days as well. And it was very, very still, put it on some real quality paper cover letter. And they, you know, and, oh, and that goes back to the cover letter thing too, right? And people, you know, recruiters, do read them. I am not one of them. I honestly do not it lets me specifically ask for one, or the hiring manager wants to look at one, or you have some kind of situation in your resume that needs explaining, that is not explained by the resume. I'm not reading your cover letter because I just don't have time.

David Turetsky: 22:54

That's great advice, because for all those people out there that spend so much time and they I've had so many conversations about if, what do I put in a cover letter and they I answer? To be honest with you, I don't know why you're writing one, right?

Desiree Goldey: 23:08

Unless it's required to me. I just, and I still don't know why people are requiring them.

David Turetsky: 23:13

It's like old times, you know? That's like ancient stuff, you know, something New York City, 10016, you know, it's like you got to send it with a self addressed stamped envelope if you're going to get a reply. I mean, you know, who does that stuff these

Desiree Goldey: 23:29

I don't know, but the technology these days doesn't even allow for it. To me, I think we moved past those days with 80 really complex ATS is and AI in the mix. Now, I think you know, the cover letter should be shot and dead somewhere in a field.

David Turetsky: 23:48

So sorry, cover letter, you've you have an expiration date. Now, yes,

Desiree Goldey: 23:51

I'm sorry. Desiree says, So what? Desiree says, God, Desiree killed the cover letter

David Turetsky: 23:59

went the way of chocolate. Hey, are you listening to this and thinking to yourself, Man, I wish I could talk to David about this. Well, you're in love. We have a special offer for listeners of the HR data labs podcast, a free half hour call with me about any of the topics we cover on the podcast or whatever is on your mind go to salary.com/hrdlconsulting to schedule your free 30 minute call today. So Desiree, let's go to the next question, which is actually kind of gets back to one of the things that I really wanted to find out on this podcast, which was, how does that disconnect affect employee engagement and company culture.

Desiree Goldey: 24:43

Yeah. I mean, this one's a great one. You know? I think when you have this disconnect between the messaging from HR and from talent, you lose productivity, you lose engagement in the actual culture, like events that maybe HR is planning. Right? You see a drop in those you get turnover. You get, you know, less productivity, right? I mean, we it's shown that, you know, bad cultures decrease people's level to produce for an organization. It's just the truth.

David Turetsky: 25:18

Do you think that some of it's planned? Do you think that Jeff Bezos or or Zuckerberg or Jamie Dimon? I know I've used them several times in this podcast, they're good to use. Yeah, but do you think those are good examples of where that command and control kind of culture coming back into a situation where this these companies grew basically as now for the last four and a half years, maybe five years, on the backs of remote work. Now you're slamming on the brakes and saying, we're making a left turn here. Do you think that that's going to impact how people feel about I mean, obviously it's gonna change how they how people feel about their work there, but do you think that that was intentional by those leaders?

Desiree Goldey: 26:08

Yeah, absolutely, yes. I mean, that's the short answer of it, but the longer answer is, what a way to cut people without having to cut people? Let's just say you have to come back to the office. You have kids, you have all these things going on. Maybe you're a one parent household. Maybe you're two, even a two parent household. Now we're asking you to do all these other things, pick up kids, do it becomes a nightmare. And if you remember the meta Facebook days and and you know, Amazon days, where it was the coolest place to work, right? You went there because they had, you know, all these cool things, and, you know, you were so excited to work there. Now you're creating a culture of where it's not so cool to work there. You're in the office, and you're stuck in there, and, yeah, I would want to leave. And if I have, if I have the the Echelon on my resume, right? If people look at that as the echelon of work, yeah, you know, I have the ability to leave because I do have a meta or, especially in engineering or Amazon on my resume, and I have the ability to leave, I would leave,

David Turetsky: 27:20

well, but let me turn it a little bit now to the government and where you're going to get a lot of people leaving there. Now, a lot of people are forced to leave. A lot of people were requested to leave. A lot of people basically said, I don't want to be in this. This is kind of nuts right now. What are they going to do? Because there are a lot of people they have. They have jobs like the Forest Service and FAA and, you know, NLRB, they can't go just anywhere.

Desiree Goldey: 27:47

What are they going to do? It's going to be super tough. I you know, I was just talking to my partner about this last night. What if I was a forest ranger? Yeah, right. Where am I going? I mean, don't you know, and I'm not saying I don't have other skills. Maybe I went to school for something, but this, that amount of people in those skill sets, they're not going to equal out, right, especially maybe in my hometown. Yeah, right. So then there may be a reload or something that needs to happen. It becomes a nightmare. I said, when this all started happening. I said, this is the biggest nightmare situation I can imagine for the job market right now. Absolutely,

David Turetsky: 28:29

I also want to step back and say because I totally agree with everything you just said, Look at the people who are left. And you talked about employee engagement and culture. They've been demonized the government, the people the government the people, the government employees, have been demonized as wasters, as time wasters, as money wasters, they've been demonized as being unnecessary. And a lot of the departments that we're talking about getting cut they're actually getting potentially closed down. Yeah, like the Department of Education? Yeah, we don't need a Department of Education.

Desiree Goldey: 28:59

Why would we need that? We only our reading level is seventh grade in the United States, and we're good. Yeah, we're good.

David Turetsky: 29:05

No, we don't need math skills, but, but, but, I guess my point is, what happens with the people who are left, left behind? They're going to look around going, I'm sitting in this gigantic building. I'm here by myself. This is a Justice Department. Okay, there's nobody here. What am I going to do? Yeah.

Desiree Goldey: 29:22

How about the workload? Yeah, exactly. Can you imagine the mental toll it would be to be one of like five people left in like, the dark education or something?

David Turetsky: 29:33

And by the way, that could actually happen, because a lot of people volunteered to leave with the buyout they were given. And so there could be that person who went into the office the next day and said, Oh, crap, I'm the only one. Yeah, I can make the biggest rubber band ball I ever wanted to make in my life right now.

Desiree Goldey: 29:52

And then there were those who accepted the severance and then told they weren't eligible for it, right, right?

David Turetsky: 29:58

It's whiplash.

Desiree Goldey: 30:00

right, but this is the, this is the, this is the thing I'm talking about when we go back to the original subject, when there's a state of confusion, right? Who suffers is the employee? Yes, not necessarily the organization at a real level, who what? Who suffers is the employee and the humans who make that company work, right? And confusion and chaos, which is what's happening right now. It's a whole bunch of chaos, and it's deliberate chaos is, you know, I think we lose out on the human part of HR and talent, right, because now we're just in this mess, and everybody's just trying to survive at this point. You know, when meta came out and said they were firing all their low performers? Well, that wasn't even true right now, but these people now are labeled low performers going into the job market. Well, that's a human being at the other side of the screen, at the other side of that resignation, and we've just completely like clean, the empathy of HR talent, anything like that. And if it's not put back in a responsible way fairly quickly, we're in trouble. And I will say we're only what 30 days in, 30 something days into this, not something, maybe

David Turetsky: 31:24

exactly 30 days,

Desiree Goldey: 31:25

okay, 30 days in to this nonsense, it only gets worse. It doesn't get better.

David Turetsky: 31:32

Well. And there were so many fears last year and the year before, about a recession, yeah, and there were fears about inflation, and we're starting to see some prices rise, especially because of egg shortages with the avian flu and other things. Those are not blamed on the government. They're just they are what they are. They aren't what they are. And what's even more fascinating is eggs are the basis of so much food that if egg prices go up, everything is going to go up in food, even milk. And people are like, well, what's the relationship of milk and eggs? Yeah, just you wait it's gonna happen.

Desiree Goldey: 32:08

Well, it influences everything

David Turetsky: 32:10

it does, yeah, yeah, and so and so we're at the start right now. What could be a recessionary time again? I'm not blaming and this is not politics at all. This is a recessionary time where you're going to have a lot of people out of work, you're going to have unemployment start rising, you're going to have inflation start rising. It's going to start to be almost a nightmare scenario. And we're going to look around and we're going to say, Oh, crap, what are we going to do about it? And we're going to look to the government, and what's the government going to say?

Desiree Goldey: 32:37

They're probably not going to be much of a government left well,

David Turetsky: 32:40

but that's, yeah, that's exactly it. The people who used to be in the department of labor or the Bureau of Economic Affairs or wherever, they're not there, right? So it's, it's going to be a situation where, actually, I heard a report yesterday that said that there's actually a built Bill tinkering around that will lower social security payments. What? Well, okay, so, yeah, I mean, it gets worse. So there's a there's a lot that's going to happen that is shaking the psyche of Americans, shaking psyche of the world, you know, and recruiters who are trying to hire good people, they're going to have a large workload ahead of them, but they're also going to have to look their leaders and say, Hey, keep the wheels on right. Don't go nuts on me yet. Don't change things midstream for me, let's be stable and see if we can withstand this.

Desiree Goldey: 33:38

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, if I and again, this goes back to recruiters being a business partner type of deal, right? Um, you know, I we need to use our voices in the rooms, because this is going to be a time where it's going to feel oppressive and it's going to feel like we are just in a turmoil and tornado. And I encourage those talent leaders, and you know HR leaders, to be thinking three steps ahead of where we're at right now, because you might may not see the fallout today, but in three months, this looks like a entire chaotic situation for recruiters, right? You have to think about your workload. You have to think about their workload. You have to think about the amount of applications coming in. You have to think about their their own well being, their mental health, right, you know, and that's going to be a struggle for a lot of people. And I, you know, I encourage people to really get into some self care. If you're a recruiter or HR right now,

David Turetsky: 34:47

well, I think you said it quite well, which is talent leaders and HR leaders have to be the appropriate business partners and raise these flags, yeah, so that when they're sitting at the table and they're having the conversation with the business leader, I. Like where you're going with that, they need to make sure that that is front and center on their minds, about the whip lash and about making sure culture stays constant, or at least tries to,

Desiree Goldey: 35:11

tries to right. Because, you know, I, I'm not, never been a CEO, but if I was a CEO, it's probably not first on my mind to think about these things, but it should be in the first of the minds of HR and talent, absolutely right. And they should come together to do that, not be disconnected in their voice, to voice those opinions. And I think that sometimes it's a struggle for those two to connect on that, but we need to do it right now, if, if there ever was a time it's right now, right it's right now.

David Turetsky: 35:45

Desiree, I think that's the mic drop moment that you just said, and I think it was brilliantly said, and I can't add anything to it, so I think we're gonna call it right there. I think that is the moment where I say, Wow, this was a really cool 35 minutes that we've spent together. Desiree, thank you so much for being on the podcast.

Desiree Goldey: 36:13

I love it. I loved it. You're the best.

David Turetsky: 36:15

No, you are, and we're gonna have to have you back. And one of the things I'd like to talk to you about is looking into talent management processes and how they have to evolve, especially in the new world with AI, but we're going to save that as a teaser for the next time.

Desiree Goldey: 36:33

Awesome. Thank you so much, David, thank you

David Turetsky: 36:35

and thank you all for listening. Take care and stay safe.

Announcer: 36:39

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