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HR Data Labs podcast
Sarah Katherine Schmidt – Revolutionizing Performance Management for Today's Workforce
Sarah Katherine Schmidt, Vice President at Peoplelogic, joins us this episode to discuss why performance management fails so many employees today and how improving performance management increases employee engagement and retention.
[0:00] Introduction
- Welcome, Sarah!
- Today’s Topic: Revolutionizing Performance Management for Today's Workforce
[4:27] Why Sarah advocates for agile performance reviews
- How regular feedback reduces recency bias and improves accuracy
- Why psychological safety should be built into an organization’s promise to its employees
[13:24] How does agile performance management help improve engagement and retention?
- Addressing the needs of the varied generations in the modern workforce
- How to bring managers and employees onto the same page
[24:42] How do organizations roll out agile performance management?
- Key mindset shifts leaders must make for successful implementation
- Letting the business set the norms for performance
[32:37] Closing
- Thanks for listening!
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Produced by Affogato Media
Announcer, the world of business is more complex than ever. The world of human resources and compensation is also getting more complex. Welcome to the HR Data Labs podcast, your direct source for the latest trends from experts inside and outside the world of human resources. Listen as we explore the impact that compensation strategy, data and people analytics can have on your organization. This podcast is sponsored by Salary.com Your source for data technology and consulting for compensation and beyond. Now here are your hosts, David Turetsky and Dwight Brown.
David Turetsky:Hello and welcome to the HR Data Labs podcast. I'm your host. David Turetsky, alongside my friend, best friend from Salary.com, Dwight Brown. Dwight Brown, how are you?
Dwight Brown:David Turetsky, I am good. Are you doing?
David Turetsky:You're just getting over the vid.
Dwight Brown:I am. I was the grand prize winner in the COVID raffle this past week.
David Turetsky:So there are a lot of raffles I wanted to win. No no, but it is like lotto. You just don't know when you're gonna win it. Yeah. Well, today we have with us a very special guest. She has two first names, Sarah Katherine Schmidt, Hey, Sarah Katherine, how are you?
Sarah Katherine Schmidt:Hey, David. I'm well, I'm so thankful to be on the podcast today. So excited for a great discussion.
David Turetsky:We are excited as well, but before we get started, tell everybody a little bit about yourself.
Sarah Katherine Schmidt:Sure. So I have been in HR and People Operations leadership roles for the last 16 years, and I have done everything for startups and consultancies, from recruitment to benefits to compensation to learning and development, all of the things that an HR professional can do, including the difficult conversations. So I have taken all of that experience, and I have come to people logic, which has an AI enhanced performance management system, and I get to coach and guide our customers, and I'm really excited about what I get to do day to day, and leveraging my experience and also helping them transform their technologies outstanding.
David Turetsky:Well, we're going to dive into that today with our topic, but before we do what's one fun thing that no one knows about? Sarah Katherine?
Sarah Katherine Schmidt:so when I retire, I want to open up a hot yoga studio in Nepal, specifically Kathmandu. I visited in 2006 and it's gorgeous. It is my happy place, and I can't wait to go back. Ideally, I retire when I'm like 50. So I just turned 41 a couple weeks ago, so I only have nine years to make my millions and get out of dodge into Katmandu. But
David Turetsky:I want a vision board.
Sarah Katherine Schmidt:It's on the vision board,
David Turetsky:It's on the vision board, and the song Katmandu is on it
Sarah Katherine Schmidt:yes, among many other songs, including some Taylor Swift I got it. Oh, really, you're a Swifty. I am a huge Swifty. I saw her in October. Yeah, saw her in October. I was fourth row, and it was just, wow,
Dwight Brown:oh, wow. Hard
David Turetsky:to be that experience. Yeah, two things we now know about Sarah Katherine. First, she's a Swifty. And second of all, she likes sweating with a bunch of other people as well.
Sarah Katherine Schmidt:I do. It's therapeutic, as weird as that,
David Turetsky:I'm sure, I'm sure, I've been told that hot yoga is a phenomenal experience.
Sarah Katherine Schmidt:It is. It's truly centering. I found it after I got divorced, because I needed to come back to myself, and so I rediscovered myself through hot yoga, and it has been a grounding force for me ever since.
David Turetsky:Well, we've all been there. I've been there twice. So not not the not the hot yoga, but the the other thing. So yes, it is definitely a grounding experience as well. So Sarah Katherine, why don't we get started?
Sarah Katherine Schmidt:Yeah, let's do it.
David Turetsky:So our topic for today is one that's near and dear to all of our hearts. Everyone loves performance management. Oh no, I'm sorry. I was just kidding, not everybody. But today we're gonna be talking about agile performance management, and we're gonna be talking about transforming the way we measure success. So Sarah Katherine, our first question is, what prompted you to champion a more agile approach to performance reviews? And by the way, what also does it mean to have an agile approach?
Sarah Katherine Schmidt:We will get there. So I mentioned, you know, my career in HR and people operations for the last 15 years, and you know, I have been guilty of leading a number of traditional performance management processes, and it's just it became super painful and cumbersome, and I saw the. Engagement of our employees and our managers in particular, decrease significantly. And so I discovered agile performance management. I pushed a proverbial rock up a hill at my last company trying to initiate small changes in performance management and moving away from annual reviews. But there, had to be a better way, and that's why I came to people logic, because we were able to develop the 12 principles of agile performance management. And so agile performance management is this future oriented, process driven, approach that focuses on frequent feedback measurement, continuous skill development, and it's designed to adapt to internal and external changes. And I think that's where traditional performance management is become so rigid, and it's become bureaucratic, and the dynamic workplace is asking for something more. And so we developed the 12 principles as a blueprint for organizations that are seeking to become more agile, meet the demands of a modern, fast paced work force, and really drive employee experience and engagement
David Turetsky:before we get into the Agile performance management. What's wrong with performance management? Why does it need to change? And you mentioned that you had a lot of disengagement. What drove that? What
Sarah Katherine Schmidt:drove that were these cumbersome, time consuming processes. And I think when we think about annual performance reviews, there's so much wrapped up in those. There's so much emotion wrapped up in looking back at six months, looking back at 12 months, what we've accomplished, and being able to regurgitate that in a very long form, and then for managers to do the same thing, and it introduces this significant element of bias that ultimately continuous performance feedback is very real time and very much grounded in data and fact. And when we look at annual performance reviews. The system was created, gosh, back in the 1900s when the army needed to assess performance for cadets and individuals who were enlisting or enlisted, and we've come a long way since then. So we need, we need to shake some things up a little bit.
David Turetsky:Well, one would argue we have and we haven't right, because our culture still hates feedback, whether it's real time, feedback, whether it's yesterday, whether it's today. We all think that we're doing the best job we can, even though we're obviously not. And you know, you talked a little bit about the managers remembering what you did for last year. You know, we have so much recency bias in our minds that, you know, if you if you knocked over the the fish tank yesterday and it spilled all over the floor and it disrupted lunch service, you know, you eat, not only what might you be fired, but but, you know, that's obviously something, no matter how stellar you were for the rest of the year, that's going to overtake anything, any Good you might have done,
Sarah Katherine Schmidt:absolutely, I think that's where delivering feedback in real time comes with a level of curiosity and empathy. You know, what else happened when you were perhaps, you know when the fish tank was in a precarious position? What else was going on that day? How are you doing? Is something off. So there's a level of that curiosity and growth mindedness that comes along with real time feedback that I think is so essential. And we have come to fear feedback because we don't know how to give feedback and we don't know how to give it
David Turetsky:We suck at it. Yeah, action.
Dwight Brown:Well and when you bring in that, for lack of better term historical perspective when you're when you're doing it far after the fact, there's always, everybody's always worried about getting blindsided and the feedback that they're going to get. So there's sort of this trepidation going into performance management, like, Okay, what's this going to look like for me? And, yeah, you know, and well, being able to, even being able to look at the constructive feedback, we just don't want to see the bad stuff on ourselves. And so it's, it is a, you know, it's a, it can feel like a terrible process to a lot of people. I guess what I'm saying
Sarah Katherine Schmidt:Absolutely, does my salary depend on it? Does my future with the depend on it? What does this mean in terms of my growth at the company? All of that's wrapped up in huge emotions around the annual review process, and when you create this environment of psychological safety within an organization where you can give constructive feedback, you can give affirmative feedback in this continuous manner. You build a relationship where that constructive feedback isn't as alarming and elevated in terms of your emotions, because you've built a relationship and you've built safety. Unfortunately,
David Turetsky:though, things happen. Things change, like we just saw with Facebook, where Mark Zuckerberg took a left sorry, took a right hand turn and said, Oh, we're going to get let go all the people who are underperforming. And a lot of those people were not documented to be underperforming. So So there's, there's got to be that psychological safety built into not just your process, but into your promise, into your brand promise, into your employment promise that we're not going to mess you about and even if you're having a bad period. You know, while, yes, we do make hiring and firing decisions based on performance management and promotion decisions, you know, there's a safe space here, and we're going to give you a lot of time prior to a an event to rectify your performance before we let you go. That is not translating in the in the arena of public opinion right now.
Sarah Katherine Schmidt:It's not those honest conversations are just harder for managers to have they immediately lead to I need to put this person on a performance improvement plan, because our minds automatically go to the negative, and they go to a place where this isn't working. I need to take some big action, versus leaning into empathy, leaning into curiosity and having some of those conversations that can ultimately accelerate performance for an individual, because you believe in them, or they sense that you believe in them. When you don't just write them off, they will come back to you and they will come back to the fold and ideally perform better.
David Turetsky:Ideally,
Sarah Katherine Schmidt:Ideally.
Dwight Brown:Yeah
Sarah Katherine Schmidt:that's not always the case, right? Rose colored glasses situation.
David Turetsky:But that's why I say that if you look at what's happening today, either the federal government or to many large organizations that have taken a turn, they are shedding those low performers who there might have been that contract with them, or that, at least that promise that we're going to work with you. And now people are looking at them and going, hmm, you lied. Or how could I trust you? And even organizations that aren't those organizations are now going to have to suffer because employees are not going to trust that a low rating is not going to lead to an exit from the company,
Sarah Katherine Schmidt:Absolutely.
Dwight Brown:Well, it's interesting, because when you look at the you look at the Jack Welch approach, where, on an annual basis, what was it 10% of his workforce got cut every year? Yep, yep. And it, it turns the performance management process and they're pretty cut through a process too, making people do stuff they probably wouldn't otherwise do. Is it the wrong approach? Not necessarily, you know, you want to keep your high performers, but to the point that that you brought up David, there's, you know, there is more of that contract that that needs to be there to really have that effective performance management process work probably sit somewhere in between, you know, probably
Announcer:Like what you hear so far. Make sure you never miss a show by clicking subscribe. This podcast is made possible by Salary.com now back to the show,
David Turetsky:and let's, let's try and transition to find out what's the difference between traditional performance management and agile performance management. How can agile performance management help improve engagement and retention?
Sarah Katherine Schmidt:Yeah, so you know, talking about continuous feedback loops, and you know, success and agile performance management really comes from creating the supportive environment that we've talked about already, where feedback is seen as a tool for growth rather than criticism, and key engagement drivers in Agile systems. This is, this is grounded in the Agile performance approach for software teams, right immediate recognition for contributions and achievements, things like regular opportunities to discuss your career opportunities or your career growth and goals. And then what we've talked about, as well as transparent communication that's agile performance management as best, is this collaborative approach to setting and tracking performance objectives. And it's not just a point in time. It's an ongoing conversation that has feedback frequency. It's goal setting. It has employee involvement and flexibility based on where the organization, organization is going, where the individual is going and melding those two together to bring out the best.
David Turetsky:So, but it's not like a agile, agile development environment where you're having stand ups and people say, so would you accomplish yesterday? And everybody shares that stuff. It's more manager employee, right?
Sarah Katherine Schmidt:It is. Is it's more manager employee and building that one on one relationship, because individualized management is what a lot of individuals in the workforce are looking at today or looking for today. We have four, maybe five generations in the workforce now, and their needs for feedback are all very different. Their desire for an annual performance review versus something that is more continuous, is very different. So it's really getting away from that point in time feed, or from the point in time annual review, to something that is ongoing. And no, it's not daily stand ups, it can be, but it's more of those regular weekly check ins and talking about growth and leaning into being curious again about what's going on with the individual themselves, and what's going on with their goals and their development.
David Turetsky:I was part of a organization prior to coming to Salary.com that had a technology salary.com that had a technology that enabled continuous feedback and continuous conversation between managers employees, and I will tell you, it was good in one way, because you kind of knew where you were. The problem is, is that it got kind of onerous that every week, managers and employees were required to have a check in, and a lot of times that check in was via technology. It was not face to face, it was not even zoom. It was you did it through the software, and you gave a thumbs up, thumbs down, or, you know, hand to the side, or whatever, to kind of say, I am feeling supported. I'm not feeling supported. Blah, blah, blah. And it became kind of wrote after a while, you know? How do you keep that going so that engagement still there and that that it doesn't become just another process I have to do every week.
Sarah Katherine Schmidt:So I look at weekly one on ones specifically as they can be routine or they can be ritual. And my routine in the morning is to get up make coffee. I can't speak full sentences without my coffee. But in the afternoon, I fix tea, and that's my ritual, because I sit down, I reflect on my day, and I, you know, savor that cup of tea more so than I need the caffeine in my veins, right? And so you can look at weekly one on ones in the same way. Is it something that I have to do? Is it a checkbox that I need to just check off? Or is it a valuable moment, or moments of my time where I'm connecting one on one with someone that trusts me, that is loyal to me, that is really engaged in the organization. How do I make sure that this person continues in that thread of engagement and looking at it as a ritual and that sacred time, so to speak, versus that thing that just has to get done?
Dwight Brown:How do you get both the manager and the employee to that point.
Sarah Katherine Schmidt:Hmmm, that's... that's a great question. It's a mindset shift, right? It's a mindset shift that has to happen at the top of the organization in terms of, here's the path for for growth and connecting and finding psychological safety and building relationships. It has to come from support from the top, and then be filtered down to the managers and the individual contributors. And creating that time and being able to save that time, right? Nothing should come over the top of one of your one on ones. And so that needs to be made very clear. And I find that, you know, once you establish that first one on one with an individual, when they join the company, or when you're their new manager, that sets the stage for making it more of a ritual than a routine, because you're talking about things that are both engaging to you and engaging to them, and you're starting to build that rapport in your relationship. And so then you want to come back and you want to do that again, and you want to keep building keep building on it, but you've got to set the framework at the top that it's really important and it's an essential piece.
David Turetsky:Unless you hate your boss, in which case, then it becomes a chore, and you say to yourself, oh my gosh, I have to spend time with them again.
Sarah Katherine Schmidt:But is there a silver lining in that space, is
David Turetsky:there a silver lining? Yes, when you hang up, that's when the silver lining happens.
Sarah Katherine Schmidt:Is there a silver lining? And sometimes that is, that is a no.
David Turetsky:But that's, that's the reason why, though people get disengaged, is that these intimate moments with a person that they don't respect, don't like, whatever are forced on them, and, yeah, I'm coming back around. Don't worry. Sarah Katherine.
Sarah Katherine Schmidt:No, I was just gonna say, dare I say this manager doesn't need to be a manager like.
David Turetsky:Well, yeah, but, but, I mean, that's, that's an easy answer, right? You know, either the relationship's not good, do you have to change the players in it? The manager, you know, should go or the employee should get reassigned, or. Something like that? Yeah, sure. But when does that come up? Does that come up through these conversations, or does that happen at different conversations? If you're an agile you're constantly trying to improve things by knowing that it's not working
Sarah Katherine Schmidt:Right? Absolutely. I think it can come up in these conversations, but you have to look at other data points around this. So you need to look at your engagement surveys. You need to look at your performance review process. You need to look at some of those other KPIs around goal attainment and skills improvement, right? If the individual is not thriving, or if the manager is not thriving, it's going to be reflected in the data somewhere. And this is where organizations don't look at that data often enough, or they don't know what to make of that data. So yes, you can know day in day out that something's not working, but you've got to pull the threads across all of those other points of influence to that decision and not just rely on your gut.
David Turetsky:Well, this is the HR Data Labs. We love measuring things, and we love outcomes too. So one of the things that we like to look at is, or once what we talk about is having good data that enables you to make better decisions about whatever process we're talking about.
Sarah Katherine Schmidt:Yes,
David Turetsky:And so I imagine, when you're talking about engagement scores, you're talking about doing it more thoroughly, more rigorously, more often, rather than that once a year engagement score that you know, we all look forward to taking.
Sarah Katherine Schmidt:Everyone looks forward to that 40 question engagement survey.
David Turetsky:Yes, we do.
Sarah Katherine Schmidt:Said no one. They have a place. They have a place. But I also think that pulse surveys done right can really, can really provide information on your managerial effectiveness and how people are growing. And then I like to talk about stay interviews a lot. So stay interviews, you know, are a retention mechanism that should be used by most organizations when they want to connect deeper, on how an individual wants to grow, how you're leveraging their skills, what projects they're excited about, where you could continue to leverage things that you maybe don't even know that they're capable of. So the qualitative and the quantitative data points are really important in figuring out what that, that giant puzzle looks like, of engagement.
Dwight Brown:Yeah, it is. You know, so much of it comes down to the technology and being able to have that, that data in a in a constantly feeding way. And, you know, I think that there are some systems that have tried to do that, but it's a challenge too, because what do you measure? How do you measure it, and how do you get the data there, and how do you help people understand what the what the meaning of the data is, and
Sarah Katherine Schmidt:when I, frankly, that's what I love about my role, because I spent so many years in that space of what do you measure, how do you measure it, and what do you make of the data in and of itself? And so I now get to talk to customers about that and help them pull those threads on their engagement data, their reviews, their individual development plans, putting all of those things together, because it's not just one piece of data, it's it's that across the employee life cycle. What are you measuring? How are you measuring it, and how are you putting that together to complete this vision or visual of the employee experience at your organization? That's what I love most about my job, because we have a platform that'll do that, but we also talk about the philosophy and the methodology behind some of those things.
David Turetsky:I imagine that implementing this, and maybe we should wait until the third question for this, but implementation of this seems like it's going to add a lot of administrivia to two organizations that may not have this as a routine part of what managers do, it may actually have to add a significant chunk of work to managers to actually be managers instead of be player coaches. Hey, are you listening to this and thinking to yourself, Man, I wish I could talk to David about this. Well, you're in luck. We have a special offer for listeners of the HR data labs podcast, a free half hour call with me about any of the topics we cover on the podcast or whatever is on your mind. Go to salary.com forward slash, hrdl consulting to schedule your FREE 30 minute call today, I guess we'll start this as the third question. How do you recommend that companies roll this out to what are extremely busy teams to begin with?
Sarah Katherine Schmidt:Yeah, if you take the 12 principles of agile performance management and you try to implement all of. Them at the same time. Yes, it's going to be overwhelming, but what I tell companies, and what I strongly believe, is that you start small and you measure the results and you use the learnings to refine your approach. So starting small means using a single department or a team as a test pilot group, implementing maybe it's 15 minute check ins each week between managers and team members, and creating a simple feedback template. What I what I want to emphasize here is that the cultural shifts needed for agile performance management, for it to succeed in the process of implementing those small changes is around growth mindset, and it's around psychological safety and trust and transparency. So if those things are there in the organization, then you can start to look at your processes and see where there's friction, and then you can start to make those small changes. They don't have to be overwhelming. HR is already trying to make transformational change happen in multiple areas. So starting small is what I recommend, and picking an area that where you think you can get some change champions, and you can find some wins, and you can gather some data to tell you the path forward.
David Turetsky:Yeah, to me that the things you just mentioned are not necessarily core competencies of organizations, you know, the trust, the safety, the psychological safety, especially, and especially in the environments that we've been dealing with lately, these are probably going to have to be trained Quite, quite, quite emphatically, actually, and hopefully the company that we're talking about as a target company for this has the culture that could open to this, because it does require a mind shift, and not just in work and how you work, but also how that relationship happens between the manager and the employee, right?
Sarah Katherine Schmidt:Absolutely. You know, I spent a fair bit of time in learning and development roles, and it was that mindset shift that was the hardest to train managers in, and it again, became the proverbial rock up a hill. And ultimately, that's where I I said, there's a better way to do it, and I want to go do it in a in a way where it's appreciated and where it can be accepted and embraced. But you're right. It starts with training your managers. It starts with actually training your leadership and making sure that they're all aligned, because if they're not stacking hands, then then none of this will be successful, and it will all be for naught.
David Turetsky:No you'll get that leader who goes jet. Don't worry. You don't have to do this. It's okay. Yeah, there's always one. I'll talk to HR. We'll extend your group. You can, you can do the annual review. Don't worry about it.
Sarah Katherine Schmidt:But then you're not, you're not equipping them to articulate the longer term vision. So you failed on the change management side.
David Turetsky:Exactly! But that's why, that you're correct, that leaders have to lock hands, that this is required, that we're going to be doing this across the board, and there is no don't worry, I'll talk to HR about it. That doesn't exist.
Dwight Brown:You got to be able to show the value of it.
Sarah Katherine Schmidt:Right! Absolutely, and, and Performance Management can't just be an HR process. Like, that's, that's what?
David Turetsky:Yeah, when HR, I'm looking at the reviews, yeah, and you haven't turned in your reviews for 2000 people? Yeah, yep, right. I get it police,
Sarah Katherine Schmidt:Where's where's the sense of ownership on that manager, though, like, where's the sense of ownership?
David Turetsky:To your point, it hadn't become a business And process. From the goal setting through the goal updates throughout the year, the check ins through the evaluation. Hey, listen, we've had these conversations throughout the year. You've done a really good job. You've met all your goals. We've talked where you've had challenges. I've tried to break down some of those issues that you've had, and no blockers anymore. You You were able to accomplish all your goals. So great job. You gotta, you gotta meet expectations. Wait, what? I gotta meet expectations. I satisfied all my goals, yeah, but you didn't, you weren't exceptional. You just met all your goals. And that's, that's where the other part gets in. You know, there has to be an alignment on what does Performance Manager mean? What does it affect? How does it How does it impact you? What do I need to do? Set me an example for what is outstanding performance versus what's just enough and and then collaborate across your entire organization and calibrate and make sure everybody knows what stellar, outstanding and exceptional means. Instead of it being Dwight, you know, he reviews his people. I review mine. Half of mine are exceptional, and he looks and he goes, Wait a minute. Wait a minute. You missed all your numbers. My group doubled their goals. An output. What are you doing, David?
Sarah Katherine Schmidt:I call that norming on your ratings and your rankings. And so you have to norm with your managers on what those whether it's inconsistent, performer, developing, performer, outstanding performer. You want your managers rating and ranking very consistently across the board to reduce bias. Yes, there will still be calibration that needs to happen. There usually always is. But when you're setting that foundation with your managers and your leaders, of this is the example, or these are the examples, provide more than one example Your heavens, and when you're setting that that norming with them being really clear about here are the scenarios. Let's throw out a scenario. Let's throw out an instant and being able to get a mind share on those things is really important.
David Turetsky:And how about we have the business lead those discussions and not? HR, yeah, so that, by the way, my dad's name is Norm So, or was so. How about nor the norm becomes something that everybody across the business can latch on to because they own it, not. HR, going, Hey, Dwight, Hey, David, I think we have a problem with your distribution... What?
Sarah Katherine Schmidt:That that bell curve
David Turetsky:Let's look at your distribution.
Dwight Brown:It'll get you every time
Sarah Katherine Schmidt:it'll get you every time
David Turetsky:50% of your team is not exceeds expectations,
Sarah Katherine Schmidt:yep. Well, what leaders are afraid about there is that they will be held to the same standards, right? And they'll be held accountable for their own performance. And I think that's, that's the hardest thing for managers and leaders to be okay with, is that it's, it's across the board. These are the norms. Here's what you're held accountable to.
David Turetsky:Yeah. Sarah Katherine, I don't know about you, but a lot of the organizations I lived in and worked in, the leaders never did performance valuation, so we could never look at them and go, All right, so what were your ratings? Because they didn't exist. Because they were, I'm too busy. It's not for me. It's for everybody else. Or they get a pass from the CEO. Well, yeah, because the CEO is not doing his evaluation either, or she's not doing hers either, right? So, you know, really?
Dwight Brown:Flows up bill and it flows downhill.
David Turetsky:Yes, it does. Dwight, and it's called plumbing.
Dwight Brown:Yeah right... Exactly.
David Turetsky:Sarah Katherine, it's been really fun having you on the HR data labs podcast. This is a conversation we could continue to have for hours, but unfortunately, we respect our listeners, and their heads are spinning for all the phenomenal information you fed them today. So thank you so much for being on the podcast. Oh,
Sarah Katherine Schmidt:Oh thank you so much. I hope they're spinning in the right direction and in a positive way,
David Turetsky:in a way that's true there, so don't let us know in the comments if they don't, if they didn't like it, and I, I'm hoping they did.
Sarah Katherine Schmidt:I hope you all enjoyed listening. And David Dwight, thank you so much. Appreciate the time.
David Turetsky:Thank you. Sarah Katherine,
Dwight Brown:thanks for being with us. Yeah.
David Turetsky:And thank you, Dwight, thank you, my pleasure. Thank you for listening. Take care and stay safe.
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