Natalie Tincher - Fostering Inclusion Through a Workplace Dress Code

In this episode, we welcome Natalie Tincher, Founder of BU Style & Principal Style Strategist. We unpack the often-overlooked intersection of personal style, workplace culture, and inclusion. Natalie shares insights on how employee authenticity and appearance impact confidence and connection, how the shift to hybrid work is redefining professional norms, and how HR leaders can balance dress code policies with generational expectations and DEI commitments.

[0:00] Introduction

• Welcome, Natalie!
• Today’s Topic: The impact of dress guidelines on workplace authenticity and inclusion.

[5:55] The Impact of Personal Style on Employee Confidence and Connection

• How others perceive style, even if it’s not a personal priority. 
• Distinguishing between expression and perceived “work” norms.

[14:32] How Hybrid Work is Redefining Professional Dress Guidelines

• How dress expectations have evolved since the pandemic. 
• The challenge for those accustomed to more rigid dress codes. 

[22:35] HR’s Role in Balancing Dress Policy, DEI, and Generational Expectations

• The importance of open conversations about dress codes. 
• Supporting employee self-expression while respecting workplace values. 
• Finding ways for employees to bring more of their full selves to work. 

[31:29] Closing

• Thanks for listening!

To schedule a meeting with us: https://salary.com/hrdlconsulting

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Produced by Affogato Media

Transcript

David Turetsky: 0:01

Welcome to the HR Data Labs podcast now part of the WRKdefined podcast network. Join us as we explore the vital role of compensation, strategy, data and people analytics in navigating today's complex business world with the resources of work defined. We're bringing you deeper insights and actionable ideas from top HR experts. Now here are your hosts, David Turetsky and Dwight Brown. Hello and welcome to the HR Data Labs podcast. I'm your host. David Turetsky, alongside my best friend, partner in crime, partner at Salary.com, Dwight Brown. Dwight Brown, how are you?

Dwight Brown: 0:37

David Turetsky, pretty good today. How are you doing?

David Turetsky: 0:41

I'm sick, but otherwise I'm okay.

Dwight Brown: 0:42

You're always sick, just sick kind a guy.

David Turetsky: 0:51

Good gravy, man.

Dwight Brown: 0:52

Good gravy.

David Turetsky: 0:53

But you know why I'm great today?

Dwight Brown: 0:56

No, why are you great today?

David Turetsky: 0:57

Today, we're going to be talking fashion with Natalie Tincher. Natalie, how are you?

Natalie Tincher: 1:03

I'm so good. How are you good?

David Turetsky: 1:05

By the way, for those of you who can't see this and you can't, Natalie looks pristine, and Dwight looks great too, and I look like a schlub. And for those who don't know Yiddish, yes, I am. No

Dwight Brown: 1:19

You're in sick clothes, allowable, yeah, but in the jam jams, I'm not in JAM jams, I'm in a sweatshirt. Well, that's jam jams. To some people,

David Turetsky: 1:30

don't you tell us a little bit about yourself.

Natalie Tincher: 1:30

My name is Natalie Tincher. I am New York, based originally from Logan sport, Indiana, small town, but I've been in, yeah, the range oh, poor Knicks. So let's not talk about I am the founder of a company called bu style. And we do personal styling for individuals. Work with corporations on dress code, alignment, education within the workforce. I was former global stylist for a major news network, and now I'm here. I've been doing this for 15 years,

David Turetsky: 2:12

we're not going to ask you the news network, but and I will tell you that that is quite interesting. You worked for GE as well in the past, didn't you?

Natalie Tincher: 2:21

I did not work for GE. In the past, I've had some clients that worked for GE,

David Turetsky: 2:28

Events Assistant GE Backstage,

Natalie Tincher: 2:33

yeah, I don't know why it pulls up GE on LinkedIn, it was a very bizarre LinkedIn, okay, but I did work backstage at BB's Backstage

David Turetsky: 2:43

Okay, so I was wrong, but they have the General Electric logo,

Natalie Tincher: 2:48

and I contacted them to change that. Once I was like, this isn't correct. And of course, it went into somewhere into the abyss, and I stopped worrying about it.

David Turetsky: 2:56

So if you all know who we are, we talk about bad data. We talk about data and bad data. Well, that's bad data, right to misinterpretations and miscalculations like on this. Nobody's on the podcast going, well, great job, Turetsky, you already tanked this episode.

Natalie Tincher: 3:14

This was not your fault. This was not your fault.

David Turetsky: 3:17

Well, before we get into the episode, let's talk about the one fun thing that no one knows about, Natalie,

Natalie Tincher: 3:23

oh, yes, you know, I racked my brain on this. And there's a lot of things that people know, but maybe not in this podcast. But one thing I don't think anyone in my life knows, that I had a very active imagination when I was a child. So I would pretend to be Wonder Woman, like legitimately, I would go into the corner and I'd spin around and like in my brain, I thought I was Wonder Woman coming to save something in the house, but nobody else knew, because it was secret that I was Wonder Woman, so secrets out. I am Wonder Woman.

David Turetsky: 3:54

You are Wonder Woman, yeah,

Dwight Brown: 3:56

yeah. I mean, it's all about what exists on our own heads,

Natalie Tincher: 4:00

right, yes,

David Turetsky: 4:01

Exactly. If you believe that you can achieve

Dwight Brown: 4:03

it, right, exactly. That's awesome. I just got this middle picture of you going into the corner and flipping around,

Natalie Tincher: 4:14

Speaking of golden lasso are, you know, the cape. And in my brain, I had it all on. Obviously, no one else believed it, but I guess, I guess it's foreshadowing for my career and the power of

David Turetsky: 4:28

Natalie. It's that you The fact is that a lot of people grew up looking at Linda Carter as Wonder Woman and saying, here's this successful woman. I mean, they didn't really understand the Wonder Woman origin story, but the successful woman powerful, more powerful than a lot of men in her universe, and that it was the outfit that they would associate with that power. And so many kids probably grew up thinking how. I look really does influence my power.

Natalie Tincher: 5:03

It's true. And the messaging of clothing and what you put on on yourself, there's a term called includes cognition that is very much like what you wear is what you're going to communicate. Because your body feels this like I'm putting on something that is projecting or signifying something, whatever that is, and then it goes to your brain, and your brain actually manifests that

David Turetsky: 5:27

probably helps out with a lot of imposter syndrome as well.

Natalie Tincher: 5:31

Yeah,

David Turetsky: 5:31

But we will get to this.

Natalie Tincher: 5:33

We shall

David Turetsky: 5:34

Our topic for today is the intersection of dress guidelines and the authenticity at the workplace. So Natalie, our first question is, what role does personal style play in employee confidence and connection?

Natalie Tincher: 5:56

You know, I think it plays nowadays, particularly, quite a big role, because dress codes have either completely left the building or they're very they've they've cashed down. So authenticity is such an important part. There was just a big Harvard Business Review project on how now non verbal communication, authenticity is the number one part of appearance in that pillar. And it used to it used to be different, and now it's authenticity as the number one price prize consideration in the grout, you know, in in executive presence. So that's been a big shift since COVID and but now it's that intersection of, how do I stay authentic, but also respecting the settings that I'm in? And there's some difficulty that I I'm experiencing or hearing from corporations and my personal clients that are saying we don't have a dress code. Now I don't know what to wear. Like, how authentic? What does authenticity mean? And I try to educate on it's a few things. It's your setting, it's what your day is comprised of. It's who you're going to be around, and it's what you want to communicate. And so it's not all just well, authentically, I like to wear sweats, so I should be able to do what I want. You know, but I would say the younger employees don't necessarily know that, and sometimes they are. There's a thought that they are just trying to be rebellious and skirt the rules, but they also just, they were at home during COVID. They were working from in their pajamas, so they don't understand what authenticity meets appropriateness looks like.

David Turetsky: 7:40

Well, I grew up in working in New York City, and when you walk down the street in New York City, you have every different facet of not just socioeconomic climate. You have every different job, and you also have every different style of dress. You have someone who's walking around in a tuxedo, and you don't know whether that's someone who's going to a formal, who's going to their Mater, Dee, or their absolutely CEO, and in the same way, that person in sweats could be the CEO of one of the most successful companies in the world. So it's very strange when you get these mixed signals in in this cultural melting pot that is New York, and going on the subway as well. You know, people with briefcases, with, you know, Spanx and, you know, a sweatshirt, and other people who were, you know, with a backpack that, you know, as an investment banker, going to, going to a meeting,

Natalie Tincher: 8:38

yeah, yeah. It's all over the place here. And, you know, I have clients that partners at Big VCs, and the things we talk about are, how do we keep your style brand intact, but also adjust to the settings that you're in? So he may be in a factory and like, absolutely you're not going to be in your suit and tie in a factory in the Midwest, but let's still signify your polish nature, so we do jeans button down or not even a polo shirt, maybe a jacket and sneakers. So you're sort of playing both sides of connecting with the space that you're in, staying true to who you are, and also showing that I'm in a position of leadership. You can trust me with your money, I know what I'm doing. And you know, it's kind of that balance of being receptive, but having authority

Dwight Brown: 9:27

and perception comes into that quite a bit. And the you know, that creates the difficulty too, because, you know, the way that I outwardly present myself, one person's gonna view it very differently than another person does, and which makes it very difficult to be able to kind of figure things out.

Natalie Tincher: 9:48

It's true. And your first filter is your your appearance. So it truly is a first filter, whether we want to accept it or not and say, oh, you know, I don't, I don't see that. Or people aren't judging. I don't care. Well, if you don't. Care. You still have to understand people are making, they're making a judgment call on you based on appearance. And there are certain colors, there are certain clothing cuts, there's certain things that universally are generally going to be received in certain ways versus other things. I

David Turetsky: 10:17

think there's another problem today, which is that people are expressing themselves with body art a lot more as well. And there have been court cases with cultural body art, whether it's hairstyles or piercings or tattoos, that have really seriously challenged cultural norms about what does it mean, especially in schools like the what was it the crown laws down in Texas about being able to be safe in school by having your hair culturally appropriate, well, but that's also an area of concern now, because there are many people who are a lot more open to being culturally appropriate, rather than just being work appropriate,

Natalie Tincher: 11:02

absolutely. And I think that's a place where companies have to be aware think about their, you know, dei initiatives and the language, whether it's coded or not, in dress guidelines. And I think also, you know, that is where employee empowerment comes in, and making sure that your senior leadership team is on the same page in terms of to what you're communicating to your employees, like I had a company come to me and they said, Oh, our, you know, we don't really have a dress code. It's just dress for your day, okay? But then fast forward in the conversation was, well, we have this employee who has green hair, and she's, you know, head of our LGBTQ plus erg. And how do, how are we going to sit and tell her that she's not going to advance by having green hair and having, you know, and I was,

David Turetsky: 11:55

which is the problem to them, is that she's LGBTQ plus, or that they have just green hair,

Natalie Tincher: 12:02

you know? And I said, Well, it sounds like this is a leadership problem first, because if you're not going to have guardrails and you're not going to communicate those, then you can't hold that against an employee who feels like they're in a place where they they've been told they can express who they are. They said there are some things you can do, then educating on to that point of the nonverbal message you have of saying, you know, maybe if you have green hair, but you want to come across more polished and professional, maybe it's how you style it, or maybe it's what you're wearing, then to create balance, to understand that I'm creative, or I'm open, I'm expressive, And also, you know, I have a blazer on, and you can take me seriously. And so it's more about educating on what clothes could be communicating. And then the employees can be empowered to say, well, I want my workplace brand to be this or that.

Dwight Brown: 12:57

Well, that's a good way of doing things, because everything shifts on practically a daily basis relative to clothing and expression and so kind of bringing you back to that base point of, are you going to how are you going to look at this? How are you going to communicate it to your employees in a way that you're not constantly changing things around for them. All right, yesterday, today, yesterday, green hair was bad. Tomorrow, it's great. You know that kind of thing well.

Natalie Tincher: 13:31

And there's so many generations in the workforce now, and so it's also, you know, I always say it's getting that all the generations to be on the same page. Of, there's also that aspect of oftentimes, the older generation feels like the only thing appropriate for an office is a suit and tie, not understanding that in certain settings, that also could be a barrier for openness and what what you want to achieve. So we've got very extreme ends of the spectrum and how people view what I think dress codes could be. But then I think a lot of companies are washing their hands of it because they don't, they don't want to get involved because it is, it is a tough conversation. It can be a sensitive conversation. You're it goes more than just clothing. You are talking about race, religion, sexual orientation, gender, all of those, those things, and so I think people have decided we're gonna not touch it, but then there's still implications of that. Right

David Turetsky: 14:32

Enjoying the conversation? Don't forget to hit subscribe, so you never miss an episode packed with insights and strategies. Now, let's dive back in Natalie. Let's touch on the second question, which I think will bring up some different issues as well, which is, how is the shift toward hybrid work impact the unspoken rules around professional dress? What's the cost of not actually addressing them?

Natalie Tincher: 14:54

Well, the return to Office, the high. Hybrid work schedules that just again, created a lot of confusion and completely changed the way that we view our closets, and how my clients, in particular, view in their closets. We're trying to create what I call smart casual wardrobes, because it feels like that sort of the middle ground, which smart casual to talk in specifics is usually I can wear nice jeans, nice sneakers and a blazer or button down, whereas business casual would be no jeans. And so it feels like there's this sort of space in between now of playing in smart casual business casual, but a lot of people don't know what that is defined as,

David Turetsky: 15:39

Even smart casual and business casual today are the relics. I've been talking about that since 1992 When Morgan Stanley introduced casual Friday, and I had to sit down with people to talk to him, because I was in the HR department at Morgan Stanley how they were dressed inappropriately. What do you mean? This is casual Friday, yeah. Well, everybody else is wearing, you know, no tie. That's how we first started

Natalie Tincher: 16:09

our casual Friday. Doesn't mean the word casual. And now take post COVID, return to Office, where casual for most people is many people sweats that's truly casual, is casual, and so that's where I think they're having a lot of difficulty. And people are not do not want to sacrifice comfort. A lot of people do not want to sacrifice comfort. The other difficulty is that so many people that had strict dress codes before and office guidelines now that they don't coming back, they're like, I don't know how to dress in a business casual or casual like, they just don't even know, because they were in suits and ties. And so there's this space where they're like, I don't I don't even have a wardrobe for this. I don't even know how to get started, because now I need to be authentic and I need to have a style when that's not my thing like that is I wanted to show up in my uniform, right, so to speak. So it's, it's posed a lot of challenges. And again, when offices aren't saying, listen, when you come to the office, these are the expectations, at least the like, base level of dress, like, no leggings. Like that is something you can say, like, we don't we don't want sweats, we don't want like, you could say that, or you have to say that's okay.

David Turetsky: 17:23

But even that is challenging, because there are jeans that look like leggings, and they're called jeggings. I know that because I bought a couple of great pairs of jeans that I didn't realize were actually like kind of jeggings. Okay? Yeah, I'm a 58 year old guy who is wearing jeggings. But, yeah,

Natalie Tincher: 17:42

they're comfortable. Comfort, comfort.

David Turetsky: 17:44

Exactly. How do you cross that barrier where someone will look at me and I'll be like, Why are you staring at my pants long enough to be able to judge whether these are jeans or not?

Natalie Tincher: 17:54

Yeah? I mean, that's a difficult question, and that's where, where we're we are. And I think, again, that is putting I think it's employee education. I truly think it's not, because when you have these parameters to your point, like a jegging to one, people don't understand all the terminology. And a jegging traditionally was truly a legging that didn't have a fly and you pulled it up. Now they may call it jegging. It looks more like a jean, but it has a certain amount of stretch. So I think when we have a language that people aren't understanding, there needs to be examples. There needs to be people thinking through some if you're gonna say dress for your day, talk through it and say, What does dress for your day mean? Does it mean I'm meeting in a big meeting with my superiors and a client coming in. Okay, well, what would I What should I wear to a big client meeting or a pitch versus I'm working internally with my team. I have a doctor's office. I'm on a zoom. I'm popping in for a quick meeting. That's a different dress for your day. That could maybe be a jegging, if it's an appropriate jegging for this setting. But again, it's like, who am I going to be around? What considerations do I need to make in dressing for your day? Isn't whatever it's to me, it's the 60 seconds to take walk yourself through your day. I'm in this meeting. I'm in this meeting. It's embarrassing to turn up to a big meeting not dressed correctly, not just in a place that you're presenting a professional image that you want.

David Turetsky: 19:27

And if you look at Dwight, Dwight always looks this sharp, right? But if he stood up and he's wearing short shorts, you know, forget it.

Natalie Tincher: 19:34

Forget it. All. Trust is out the window.

Dwight Brown: 19:36

People just got a mental picture of that

David Turetsky: 19:37

Dwight. I'm sure there are a lot of people who are fanboys of Dwight Brown who said, yeah, yeah, let's do it.

Dwight Brown: 19:46

We're gonna see the short shorts.

Natalie Tincher: 19:49

That's COVID, that reporter that was in

David Turetsky: 19:52

it. Wow.

Natalie Tincher: 19:57

Know, the shot, no, the

David Turetsky: 19:59

shot. Yeah, there were a lot of opportunities of that during COVID too.

Dwight Brown: 20:04

And you know, there's also this stress level that goes with complying with policies. You know, it's interesting, because I came from an organization, very large organization, very formal organization, and for 22 years, I wore a suit and tie. And getting out of that environment, it was kind of stressful, because it's like, All right, so I'm going to look weird if I still show up in a suit and tie on my Zoom meetings. But is that really? You know, can I dress down at all. If so, what does that look like? And so there's a lot of stress that goes around it. Even when you start to define these things

Natalie Tincher: 20:48

It's sort of telling everyone they need to, they need to care about fashion. When you know, right, you don't like everyone has to put clothing on, at least in the society we live in, and it's going to say something about you. And so now there's this added level of pressure to your point when it's not this is a uniform. This is what everyone's wearing now people are looking at you to say, to look at your style brand as an extension of your personal brand, which has been buzzed

David Turetsky: 21:14

if you're on camera,

Natalie Tincher: 21:15

if you're on camera, or if you're in an office, it's not always on camera. It's if you're walking into a room, walking down the hallway, what are sure? What are people thinking

David Turetsky: 21:25

well, and the reason why I bring up on camera or not is because there are a lot of people who have regulations that say, if you're on a zoom, you need to be on camera. We need to see that you're paying attention. We need to see that you're not multitasking. And we are all, and have all been guilty of multitasking all the time because we're all ADHD now, and we just can't help ourselves. But what that does about your personal style and brand means is that you're, in some cases, I've seen this as I believe that the person is unapproachable, or is trying to not necessarily hide something that sounds a little harsh, but they're, they're they're not being as forthcoming as as others are,

Natalie Tincher: 22:08

or as engaged in the conversation, or as or as interested in the conversation. I mean, yeah, I think that's a something. I an unconscious bias that I have in that, if you're not on and I can't make digital eye contact with you,

Dwight Brown: 22:25

exactly, right? Yeah. Well,

David Turetsky: 22:27

Natalie, I want to get to the last question, because I think this is one that I'm really interested in having two adulter children's they're 17 plus and 12 year old child, and they're all within the world of LGBTQ plus, which is how can HR leaders balance generational expectations and DEI commitments when it comes to dress codes, especially as younger employees challenge traditional norms around professionalism.

Natalie Tincher: 23:04

I love this question. I don't think we have I don't think we have an answer. We have a conversation to have around this. And I think that's letting all the voices speak. And I think it's not having just one set at the top all look the same. So I think it's having representation and having a dialog to say, what is it, you know, what does it mean to be a non binary in the workplace? What does it mean to, you know, look around the room and be represented, or at least create a space for representation, and then what does that look like in a professional setting. And so I think there's that balance of this, I can be what I want, I can do what I want. And I think there's that's where generations are having a little bit of a push pull of well, this generation doesn't this, and this generation this. We need to cut that language out and just say, what does it look like now to be professional in a workplace but still be able to show up as who you are. And I just think those conversations need to happen. I think that people are afraid to have them, because there is either fear of being canceled or there's fear of being not being able to speak up and use your voice, and so instead to sit in a room and have the hard conversations and be able to ask questions. I think all generations need to say, Hey, I know we if we don't have a dress code, what are the expectations that I have? And then hold senior leadership accountable to also say, hold on. They need to say, let's think about this. Is this an antiquated ideology, or is this something that is sound and fits in with what culture we want to create in our company? Again, I don't think there's a full answer. I think, though, we all need to be a little more open about talking across the aisles that I think we generally could all use everywhere, of having this talk like what's challenging for you as a Gen Z or what's challenging for you as an LGBTQ plus what's challenging for you as a person of color, what's challenging for you. And how can we as a company better communicate to you and better help you feel received as a professional here,

Dwight Brown: 25:16

really, really being able to channel or kind of going back to that concept that what I wear, how I wear, it, is an expression of myself. And so essentially through the conversations, you're channeling that through those conversations.

Natalie Tincher: 25:30

And we accept who you are we

Dwight Brown: 25:31

right exactly,

Natalie Tincher: 25:35

we accept you, but you need to, but

Dwight Brown: 25:37

Exactly.

Natalie Tincher: 25:38

And here is we accept you and we accept you and and so I think those are the conversations that need to happen, and people need to stop being afraid to have them.

David Turetsky: 25:47

just like you brought up before, with the person who is head of the LGBTQ ERG, and she had green hair, or they had green hair. How much are we willing to stretch? You know, what's the breaking point of? Well, we know you're gay and we're not willing to deal with the green hair. Really, that's the line you're going to draw. And with DE and I taking an absolute, horrifyingly more conservative approach these days where, God forbid you actually mentioned DE and I on your website. You know that's a bad thing. So I guess my question is, how do people feel authentic when feeling authentic might mean that not only you fired, but or you're just treated awfully in the context of the workplace.

Natalie Tincher: 26:41

I mean, I think that twofold, one is, if you're in a privileged position to be able to select where you want to work, I think that's the filter for a place of employment. I was speaking at to a bunch of graduate students once, and somebody said was in an interview, and I was told I needed to relax my hair. And it said, Well, should I do it? And I said, Well, the first question I would ask you is, if a company's already making these assertions, is this a place you want to work? Obviously, not

David Turetsky: 27:15

everyone to them. Natalie, why would someone? I mean, that's almost as racist as it gets, when it get, well, you're black, but we don't like your hairstyle. Like what?

Natalie Tincher: 27:24

It's awful. It's it's actually awful. I mean, my jaw dropped her to compose myself in this and say, Okay, let's flip it. Let's flip this to you. And as this, this is a filter, just as much as they're interviewing you. Hopefully this can be afilter.

David Turetsky: 27:40

Hopefully they didnt take the damn job.

Natalie Tincher: 27:42

I don't believe they did, but on that, we are, you know, the it's tough to find jobs now, so not, we're not all in those privileged positions. And so I think if it is something sometimes, you know it, you have to make that choice between, am I going to be in a place where I want that authenticity. I want to have the green hair, and I know that I'm not going to advance now until I can find another job at a company that does or you have that choice to say I'm going to follow, I'm going to follow what they need me to do right now so I can get to the place that I want to get. So then I can leave and try to have your own I call me a little subtle rebellion, like I have a scarf that looks really nice florally on the outside, but it has little razor blades on it. And it's my own. It's my own sense of saying, like, Yeah, this is, this is my way of feeling my armor, feeling my rebellion. And so I think you have those two choices depending on where you are in your career, how mobile you are, what position you're in, because you may be in a company that was super open, and then things have changed, and obviously our climate's changed, and you may, you may have to stick it out for a little while right now, and those are the choices you have

David Turetsky: 28:53

right after the interview. I would have gotten a tattoo that says, racism sucks

Dwight Brown: 28:58

forehead.

David Turetsky: 29:00

How you doing? Racism sucks,

Natalie Tincher: 29:07

right? Hi. Guess where I am now. Much better place, much happier. This tattoo does not apply to them,

David Turetsky: 29:17

but I also have a concern, because, you know, religious in a religious way. I mean, there are some people who want to wear burqas to work. Hasn't always been a safe place to wear burqa to work, especially after 911 and then, you know, there are other things, like wearing a yarmulke for Jewish folks, and doing that, you're basically putting targets on yourself about who I am, and you know how much this means to me within the context of my work?

Natalie Tincher: 29:47

Yeah, I mean, I was it's obviously different that I was raised Mormon. I'm no longer practicing. But there's a certain modesty and garment requirement in Mormonism too, that sometimes uniforms don't work with. Sometimes. Expectations don't work with. And again, that's a I always think it looks back at your company culture, who you're around. But we don't always have that choice, especially in certain parts of the country, where it's not like walking down the street in New York, where you can see everything, every religion, every every everything. And so I think that is where having a supportive HR, having, you know, places that have those ERGs, and having that space comes in, but that's that's not, you know, I always say it's who you are, and if it's how what you believe in, and it's really important to you as much as possible, try to find your space that will support that. And you know, it's hard to sometimes be the target, and it's really brave and really courageous to be who you are and represent what's really important to you when it's not what the rest of the room looks like.

David Turetsky: 30:54

I've definitely been in a room where I've been the only person doing one thing, so it doesn't necessarily bother me,

Natalie Tincher: 31:00

you know, it doesn't me either. And I always think, well, I'm doing this. I'm walking so somebody else maybe doesn't have to deal with this. The power of an individual can really shift things. And so that's where I I think bravery is important, and it's how the only way we're going to affect change.

David Turetsky: 31:20

Beautifully. Said, I think we're going to leave it on that mic drop moment, because we can talk about this all day, and we don't have all day to talk. So thank you very much. Natalie

Natalie Tincher: 31:39

Thank you. Thank you for this conversation.

David Turetsky: 31:41

It's been amazing. Dwight, thank you.

Dwight Brown: 31:44

Thank you.

David Turetsky: 31:44

Thanks for being with us and thank you all for listening. Take care and stay safe. Thanks for listening to the HR Data Labs podcast. Don't forget to subscribe and share with your network. Also check out the HR Data Labs Brown Bag Lunch every Friday on YouTube, stay safe!