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Hello and welcome to all my leaf fans. Oh, whoa. No, no, no. Hello and welcome to all my fellow Lee fans. And I'm not talking about hockey. I'm your host, Meredith Meeker. And this is another episode of how do I do this and environmental career podcast. This week, I sit down with our guests we'll then have a son. He is a self-employed ecologist who started off in planning, but has worked in consulting for over a decade. He is passionate about creating meaningful conservation outcomes through his work. So let's get into. Okay. Awesome. Well then I think we're just gonna jump right into it. Start off with a pretty easy question. It was not even a question. I'm just going to get you to say your full name and your pronouns.
Will Van Hemessen:So my name's Wilf and I have a son. He, him.
Meredith Meeker:Awesome. Well, thank you. Well, for joining me today, I've been really looking forward to this conversation all week. So we're going to start off and I'd love to learn more about what your favorite thing to do is either outside or to help connect you with nature or make you feel connected with nature.
Will Van Hemessen:Well, my favorite things to do in nature has always been fueled by. We actually have a word for it. So yeah, I mean, that's kind of, it's been my passion for quite a while. Like when I was a kid, I remember going out with my dad and he was also interested in botany, so he would point out various plants. And then I went through a rebellious phase in high school, but rediscovered botany in my undergrad. And I've been pretty much obsessed with it since then. So, yeah, I mean, largely what I do is I try to find interesting looking at habitats. Either in places I'm familiar with or like sometimes I'll go on Google earth and look for interesting places like along rail lines or interesting looking forests or wetlands, and I'll go there and see what I can find.
Meredith Meeker:Very cool. I was going to say, I I've heard of like, I'm a birder, so we call it birding. I'd never heard of it as balkanizing or so that's pretty awesome. Do you have any places that are, I guess it's winter now, so slightly less plant life to observe, but do you have any places that are on your to visit list in this.
Will Van Hemessen:Tons. Yeah. I mean, I have kind of a constant running list of of places I want to check out. And some years I get to them some years I don't. But I always end up finding new and interesting places to, to see plants. And luckily with the kind of work I do, I always get to go new places every year that I wouldn't otherwise. Either be able to access or just wouldn't have thought of going to. So I'm lucky that way.
Meredith Meeker:Well, that is a great segue. Thank you. Well, can you tell us a little bit more about what it is that you do and why the work that you do is so important?
Will Van Hemessen:Well, so I'm an environmental consultant and that's like, that encompasses a lot of things. Previously like basically since when I finished undergrad until last year I worked at various different consulting firms. So primarily what I was doing was permitting and environmental assessment type work. And then occasionally other interesting things would come along. Like, I got to do some management plans for significant natural areas. Like species at risk planning and, and recovery that kind of work, which is really, you know, that's the, that's the fun work, which is why we all got into this profession to begin with most of us. So why is it important? Well, I mean, we have all these regulations and policies in place that prevent. Natural features, whether it's like endangered species habitat or wetlands or forests or, or fish habitat, but you know, what are the triggers for actually protecting those things? Those triggers are things like the environmental assessment process and the planning act and, and these, these policies that require. Development proponents to assess features before they actually go ahead with the development. And so that's what consultants do is we actually go out and we look at the landscape and we identify those features and we identify what's protected under various policies. And in the absence of us, there'd be nobody doing that. And people would just go ahead and do whatever they want and get penalized for it afterwards. So I guess that's why I would say. Consultants are important. And then there's just, you know, I would say all of us in consulting all of the ecologists and consulting are very passionate about what we do. And we, we do it outside of work as well as in work. So we're all really interested in what we're seeing on the landscape and, and we try to contribute to science as well as to policy.
Meredith Meeker:I think that. A great answer. As somebody who's worked in consulting myself for awhile and it's, I think important to remember, and also to put out there that consulting ecologists, Bri cologists first, we love what we do. We're out there doing our best to protect our landscape within the policy framework that, you know, we have the power to protect. So I really liked that and yes, I don't know many. Ecologists in general that aren't, you know, out on the, on their weekends looking either at new species or exploring new habitats. So yeah, we're, we're a passionate bunch. I, I think I'd agree with you there. And yeah, you said you kind of got into consulting out of school, but I love to hear more about your journey maybe from when you were out, looking at plants with your dad to, to where you are
Will Van Hemessen:now. Yeah, so my, my dad was pretty lucky. He, he. Really what I would call it, the dream career working for various nonprofits and and the government. So when I was a kid, we lived in the, in the country and he took us out to various trails all over Ontario, really. And point out plants and birds. And I think all of us were pretty curious kids and we all wanted to know what things were. He probably made a lot of it up, but but that really started my interest in nature. And then like I said, in high school, like most teenagers, I went through a rebellious phase and I, I thought I wanted to be an architect. So I applied to the architecture program at the university of Waterloo and I did not get. But they told me based on what I said, I was interested in that I might enjoy planning. And so I, I enrolled in that and Waterloo, the planning programs and the faculty of environment. And so the first year planning students this is back in like 2007, the first year planning students had to take a first year field ecology course. And so I took that. And it kind of reawakened my interest in, in nature and my interest in ecology and particularly plants. And so I decided to stick with that. And so I, I got my planning degree but I just completely focused on learning as many plants as I could all through undergrad. And I was lucky enough to get some internships that first the, the ministry of natural resources here in Ontario. And and the museum of nature and Ottawa and yeah, I guess I got good enough at plants that one of my profs who happens to own his own planning firm when it's a hire me as an ecologist. And so he hired me straight out of undergrad and that was my intro to consulting and it just went from there. I, I ended up moving through a few different companies, getting experienced. Companies that were just Siraj three people to accompany. That's like a huge multinational corporation with thousands of staff. And then last year I decided to go to my own. And so that's what I've been doing since then. This is pretty new to me being an independent contractor, but it's an interesting journey. So
Meredith Meeker:it must be nice, especially. Worked for other people and, you know, getting told what projects to do to have like a lot more autonomy and seek out projects that you're really interested
Will Van Hemessen:in. Yeah. The autonomy was part of it. Like part of, part of my wanting to be independent. I feel like as you, as you move on and consulting, like, like as you get more experienced, you start to develop your own client base. And I, I've also done quite a bit of volunteering for nonprofits like land trusts and a bird studies, Canada groups like that. And, and so I, I I've found some clients through, through those organizations as well, so, yeah, it just felt like the time had had finally come to try and do my own thing.
Meredith Meeker:Amazing. Well, congratulations. And I mean, it's interesting. I feel like the volunteering, if you're passionate about this field, it, it never stops. It's a lifelong thing. It's not just to get your foot in the door, but you never know where it's going to lead.
Will Van Hemessen:I agree with, but I feel like a lot of people, especially. Coming out of university and you know, you're desperately looking for a job. I know I've been in this situation many times. It's tempting to think, oh, I need to volunteer, and this will get me a job, but I think the motivation should be volunteer for the sake of volunteering and enjoying yourself and not just to get your foot in the door because eventually just through you know, experience, you'll get there.
Meredith Meeker:Yeah, volunteering is a great way to, you know, either try something new or get out to a landscape that maybe you wouldn't have before. I know that's how it got me out to the happy valley property that NCC manages. And I loved it. It was a place that I hadn't been yet by myself. So, yeah, volunteering is, is a great way to get experience and maybe get your foot in the door, but yeah, probably never stop. And maybe is that your piece of advice you'd give somebody who was just starting out in their career or do you have something that you wish you could go back and tell yourself when you were starting out?
Will Van Hemessen:Yeah, that's a difficult question because I feel like my career developed so organically that it wasn't, it wasn't like I'm, I mean, definitely I have made certain decisions. Sent my career in one direction or another, but I wouldn't say that anything I did was, I wouldn't say any decisions I made for bad decisions. I guess, I guess what I would say, and this is more, a philosophical thing than like a specific thing is don't lose faith. I don't mean that in a religious way, but like there have been a few times in my career that I've been unemployed for a few months. Which I think happens to all of us and, you know, at least one of those times I really hit what I thought was rock bottom. And I thought I was going to have to change careers entirely because there just wasn't any work. And then I was actually sitting, waiting for an interview at the Toyota plant here in Cambridge, and I was sitting there and that's when I got the email that I'd gotten an interview at persons, which was the, the company I ended up working for it. The consulting firm, I ended up working for them. So, you know, it does happen and it's really easy to get to feel like the job pints is crushing your soul, but you just have to stay motivated because eventually something will change.
Meredith Meeker:Yeah. I think if you are among the environmental professional that has never had a few months of unemployment, you are in the vast minority of environmental professionals. And I remember I landed like my first full time job and I thought I was set and then the entire group shut down. And I was also convinced I'm like, that's it, I'm never working as an ecologist again, but you know, got a couple lucky bounces, got a contract, got back into consulting and yeah. Keep the faith. I think that's a really great piece of advice, especially, you know, it feels linear maybe looking back at your career, but it doesn't necessarily feel linear when you're in it.
Will Van Hemessen:For sure.
Meredith Meeker:And well, what would you say is like the best part of your.
Will Van Hemessen:I mean, the answer really is the field work and I think that's, I think that's, I mean, some people might give you more of an HR answer. Like, oh, I like helping people. I like seeing projects through to fulfillment, like. That's satisfying too, but really it's the field work and it's, it's the opportunity to go places you wouldn't normally get to go. Like I said earlier, I mean, there've been a few times in my career that I've done helicopter work and for far Northern Ontario and you know, those are places that you would never get to go if you, if you weren't a, a consultant. And Yeah. I just like seeing new places that I would never even think of going closer to home and getting to go on private property and yeah, you see things that you wouldn't otherwise get the opportunity to see, and that really is the most fun part of consulting. Or at least that's been for me the most fun part of consulting.
Meredith Meeker:Yeah. Field days just go by so much faster than office days. And I feel like that's a sign of how much you're enjoying your work. At least for me, that's what I find. I'm on board with you there, but what do you think is the most, like either challenging or unexpected part of consulting that you weren't expecting when you first started?
Will Van Hemessen:Well, I think it's shifted. I mean, like when you first start out and consult. Most of us, at least. You're going to be in a fairly junior technical role. Like you won't be, you won't be dealing with clients. Mostly won't be doing too much report writing or proposal writing or anything like that, depending on where you're working. And so the challenges will, will change and there will always be new challenges because you're going to be faced with new aspects of the work that you haven't encountered before. For me the most challenging thing I mean, there's a, there's a few things. One has been the client management and business development, because I don't really have that kind of personality. Like I don't, I don't have a super outgoing Salesmen personality. And so the business development aspect of, of consulting is it's not something that comes naturally see me. And then the other challenging part, unfortunately is when you're faced with a project where there's no, there's no winning, like, you know, you end up in a situation where the natural environment's going to lose and your client's going to lose. And there's really no solution. And you have to make very difficult decisions that, that in a lot of cases can really challenge your personal ethics. And that's always been the hardest part for me. And I think it will always be the hardest part for me and probably most of us to have I've always been in that situation. So
Meredith Meeker:yeah, I think that is a really challenging part of consulting, whether you're the person. You know, at the top who has to make that call or whether you're a junior staff that watches people make that call. It's still tough. To know that you've facilitated that decision in some way, but developments are going to happen. That is just a fact of where we live in Southern Ontario. I think you just need to always try to do the best and, and keep that in mind for the environment and, and for the client, but mostly for the environment. Yeah. And I guess you've mentioned that you're very good at plant ID you're you love botany. So is that the skill set that helped you break into the industry? Or is there one that like a new skill set that you see. New people entering the environmental sector might need.
Will Van Hemessen:Well, there's been a few things. So primarily for me it was the plant ID skills that ultimately got me a job. But I think it was that in combination with some of the skills that I got from my planning degree and a big part of that was policy. Because in consulting, you know, one thing we do is we go out into the field and we identify a natural features and inventory species and, and so on. And then you take that data back to the office, but then what do you do with it? And ultimately what we do with it is we identify features on the landscape that are protected by policy. And so that requires you to have an understanding of things like. The planning act and the endangered species act and the fisheries act and all these, all these, all these pieces of legislation and policies at different levels of government that protect features on the landscape. And so for me, coming out of planning and already having kind of a foundation in policy was really helpful because when I got into. Consulting. I, I understood why, what I was seeing in the field was was important and what made it protected, which I, I feel like even now most ecology students don't get much exposure to policy. I think that There's opportunities to get exposed to policy, depending on what courses he decided to take. But a lot of them come out with basically zero knowledge of policy, other than, you know, the endangered species act protects endangered species, but it's not that simple. Like why, why does it protect endangered species and specifically what features on the landscape? Is it protecting? So it was that. And then, I mean, another thing that was really helpful for me, and again, Out of the fact that I did planning as my undergrad degree, I had some pretty solid GIS skills and that was really helpful for me because again, your process as a consultant is field work. Take the data back to the office and Matt. Significant features. And so having those, that set of three skills, like the field skills and the policy skills and the GIS skills for me, it was really valuable. And I don't think there are too many people who, who have that combination of skills and the ones that do are super sought after in this industry. Like you're basically guaranteed a job if you've got that combination of skills.
Meredith Meeker:Yeah, I think that's kind of like a winning trifecta because it is, you know, so much of the work that consultants do. And yeah, I think maybe it like why more students don't come out with like a knowledge of policy is because policy, when it's maybe an optional class doesn't seem as exciting. Mammalian dissection or like some of the other upper year courses. But, and I don't think that universities necessarily do the best job of communicating what skills are sought after in the job market. Once students leave university. So I've been out of university for quite a while, so maybe that's changed, but I would really hope. People would want to take more policy classes cause it's going to affect most jobs in the environmental field out. Yeah. Just most jobs in the environmental
Will Van Hemessen:field. Yeah. I think universities have gotten better at it. Because in programs like planning and environment, resource studies, I think universities are realizing that most of those students are not there because they're. Going to become professors, ultimately they're there because they want careers in the field. And I think they've gotten better. Like when I was an undergrad at Waterloo, which was 2007 to 2011 all of the policy courses for the most part were in the planning program. So if you were taking something like environment, resource studies, you might not even know this course. Two courses exist. And there was an environmental assessment course, for example, but it focused specifically on the federal EA process, which is something that I have never encountered in my entire consulting career. Like it's been provincial EAs, lots of municipal planning and development work very little federal stuff. But now, because I'm still fairly connected to Waterloo and I know that at Waterloo they've, they've gotten much better at Providing students with, with these types of courses. And it's probably happened at other universities too. And I guess I'd also say I work, I've worked with a number of people who've taken an undergraduate degree and then gone on to Fleming college or Niagara college to take a more applied ecology diploma. And they end up with a really well-rounded skillset because they've got that foundation of like fundamental ecological theory. But they also get the really practical applied stuff from college. So
Meredith Meeker:you don't need to tell me, I am an ecosystem restoration grad from Niagara college, and I think it's a, it's a winning combo. You still need that undergrad degree, but it really does show that you've got some great practical skills. And then just going back to Waterloo, I feel like, and I didn't attend Waterloo. You know, there are so well known for their, their co-op programs as well. So I feel like maybe they're also a university that's kind of leading the way and understanding that not every student that walks through their door is going to end up as a professor or professional researcher. So it's nice to, hopefully they're leading the charge then, and they're getting some really practical courses into their school. And another thing they could add is maybe some business courses. Cause that's the other thing that I talk to a lot of people about, they're like, yeah, I know how to do the field science and understand the ecology. And then as I move up and have to do more business development or budgeting and
Will Van Hemessen:I learned most of that on the job and I think I'm still learning that aspect of the job, but yeah, certainly he can take that kind of business courses. It could be helpful.
Meredith Meeker:Yeah. I, I mean, the other thing that I think has come up a lot on this podcast is that a lot of us are lifelong learners. So, you know, you don't have to be in university. Learn these skills, it's just a nice place to acquire some of them. like managing teams, you know, then that's something that they haven't been trained for. So maybe some business courses in there might not be such a bad thing, you know?
Will Van Hemessen:Yeah. I mean, for me, that came kind of organically.
Meredith Meeker:And so my last kind of career question for you is that, you know, breaking into the environmental industry can be quite hard. And when you're applying for a consulting firm or an NGO, Sometimes it's really, really competitive and you might be going against another 50, a hundred applicants. So do you have any advice for somebody who wants to make their application stand out and get to the top of the pile?
Will Van Hemessen:It, like, I don't really have anything specific to recommend other than, you know, the, those kind of ancillary skills that I talked about, like GIS or policy. Those are really helpful. So. Like, if you can get those skills while you're in university, definitely, definitely do that. And then highlighted on your resume like for, you know, the consulting field is what I know. So I'll talk about that. And when you're starting out in consulting, like I said, you will be going into a junior technician role at first and the most important skills for those that are going to be. Identification skills, whether it's plants or birds or herps or whatever it is that you're, that you're interested in and knowledgeable about. And so you really have to highlight those. And I don't have like any specific suggestions for doing that, but I would say like, get involved with the fuel botanists someone's Cheerio or birds, Canada, Ontario fueled ornithologists, like get involved with those organizations. So that on your resume, when you say, you know, I have bird ID skills, you can say, and I'm involved with OFO and bruise Canada and And it, it will really it'll help tie those skills to something real, because unfortunately when you're coming out of university, you may have these skills, but you don't really have anything to demonstrate it. And that's the hardest part is, is, is how to actually show an employer that you really do. Plant ID skills when you don't really have anything to demonstrate that. So that's the only real advice I have. It's it's tough. Like, I, I really do empathize, emphasize with students who are just starting out in their careers. It's like, I got lucky. Starting out in my career, but I can imagine if I hadn't gotten that lucky, it would have been pretty soul sucking, applying to just dozens and dozens or hundreds of jobs and hearing back from one or two of them. So, yeah, I wish I had, I wish I had a magic bullet, but I don't.
Meredith Meeker:No, but I, I, I think there's some really good nuggets in there, especially about, you know, tying your skills to real world. Either organizations or, you know, experiences because yeah, if you say I plant ID skills because I've taken these courses versus I have plant ID skills and I've, you know, I'm a member of this. It, I feel like has a different level of. I don't know, validity, maybe. I don't know if that's the right, right word, but also in those, or yeah. And also chances are, you know, somebody who's hiring might be also part of those organizations or know people. And it's a great way to, to build your network and showcase your skills. So I think that's a really good piece of
Will Van Hemessen:advice. Yeah. I guess one more thing I would say in it, it, it seems obvious to me, but I think might not be as obvious to others. Is to put those technical skills, like plants, ID, and GIS put them right at the top of your resume. I like you mentioned the co-op program at Waterloo. I didn't personally go through co-op, but I took like, they have like resume prep courses and stuff for co-op students, which I took. I feel like those courses, like all of these resume design and interview prep, things they're designed by people who probably have MBAs and psychology degrees. And they were all about like how to manipulate the psychology of, of the hiring manager. And the reality is in consulting and I imagined. In the nonprofit industry and government, the w we want to see your hard skills. We don't care. I mean, we do care if you have conflict management skills and those sorts of things, like, obviously those are important in the workplace, but on your resume, we don't really care about that. We want to see that you have plant ID skills and. Knowledge of GIS and knowledge of policy you know, ability to like use ATVs or something, right? Like for field work, that sort of thing is what we, that's what we really need in a junior level technician once you're up in the management ranks. So that's when people start to care more about your soft skills. So, don't necessarily take the advice of those resume prep courses that you can take. And school because a lot of the time it's not designed for this, this type of field.
Meredith Meeker:Yeah. And I think it, depending on the size of the organization, that you're also applying to the person reading, it might not know exactly what your role is like if it's an HR person. So having those bolded skills. You know, might help them, like, especially if they're very blatant, might help that person make those connections and get you to the environmental reviewer. So I think that is, that is really
Will Van Hemessen:important. Yeah, for sure.
Meredith Meeker:Now onto my favorite question it's not about careers anymore. It's about nature. We call it nature because nature is so neat. So do you have a favorite moment where you've either been. I would exploring or potentially at work where nature just took your breath away.
Will Van Hemessen:I mean, there's so many as some possible that she's just one like, the more time you spend in nature, especially if you end up doing like work in remote wilderness areas, you're going to see so much cool stuff. I mean, I've seen lake. I've seen a Falcon catch a bat and eat it for example, which I feel like probably not a lot of people have seen that. I've discovered plant species that either are new to this province, or haven't been seen in Ontario and like a couple of decades, which is always exciting. And I've been to some places that are just utterly spectacular and really. Take your breath away, like up on the north shore of lake superior. So yeah, I cannot pick just one. I, I, I really can't. There's so many cool, cool experiences that I can think of.
Meredith Meeker:Yeah. It's I guess one of the joys of, of doing this work and sometimes those moments come in, like the most surprising ways as well, like either a plant. That hasn't been seen in decades, or I think back to one of my first jobs and I was in the middle of Whitby on an undeveloped site and we were doing bird surveys. So it was like sunrise and a stag with a full set of antlers, just like Crested this Brandom hill. And I was like, we're in the middle of Whitby and there's just a giant stag. So like there's just surprising moments. So yeah, it's, it's definitely hard to, to pick So one of the things that we kind of touched on is sometimes there can be challenges, especially, you know, when you work in consulting. So is there something that like keeps you inspired or keeps you coming back and, you know, helps keep you motivated to keep doing the work that you're doing?
Will Van Hemessen:Well, I've shifted my, my work focus quite a bit. Like I'm hoping now that I'm an independent consultant, I'm hoping to focus more on more conservation focused stuff. Blake species at risk recovery and management plans for significant natural areas. That sort of thing. And that really is what keeps me coming back is knowing them, having a positive impact on the natural environment in some way. Some of the projects that have been most meaningful CV over the years have been things like stream restoration projects. I've been involved with a few of those. When I was doing a lot of highway work I was involved in replacing culverts that. We're perched and we're basically cutting off fish habitat along rivers and creeks and replacing those culverts and installing fish ladders and stuff, and seeing the fish community diversify and, and become reconnected within these systems was really meaningful. You know, it's great to come back a year after you've constructed something and actually see that there has been a positive outcome. And that, that really is ultimately why I think all of us got into this field was because we want to have a positive impact. And without seeing that positive impact, it, it's hard to stay motivated. So for me, that's, that's what it's been, and that's why I decided to go out on my own. Cause I, I want to keep, keep chasing those types of projects that really do have meaningful.
Meredith Meeker:That makes, that makes total sense. And yeah, I, I think being able to, to see the wins can do a lot to make you, you feel like you're making an impact. So I actually have a question that I didn't give you an advance and I'm going to put you on the spot just because I'm curious, but do you have a favorite Ontario plant species?
Will Van Hemessen:I would say it, it, it changes I've had people joke that my favorite plants is just the last plant I've seen. My license plate says lo Veolia because I, I really like, some of the blue locally is lobelia syphilitic Mobilia call me. I I I have an obsession now with Ash because I've been involved in a couple Ash recovery projects. And assessment projects. Yeah, I, it's hard to choose and every day I feel like I have a new favorite species because I'll get interested and obsessed with something. I get obsessive.
Meredith Meeker:Well, the fact that you have a plant on your license plate is very cool. So why lobelia is, is it just because they're beautiful or like, I'm just
Will Van Hemessen:curious Yeah. Well, I really liked the color of blue. I've always it's been my favorite color for pretty much forever. And we have some species of here in Ontario, which are really amazing. Hues of blue. We also have like Jenkins are amazing blue, wild flowers and flocks. Yeah.
Meredith Meeker:Very cool. Yeah, there are beautiful plants. I just wasn't sure if it was just, yeah, I mean, plants are beautiful. So great answer. And last question, before I let you go. If somebody wanted to, learn more about environmental consulting or, or what you do. Is there anything, is there anywhere they should check out or what should they do?
Will Van Hemessen:Well, for me personally, right now, probably my LinkedIn is the best way to connect with me or learn more about what I do. For consulting in general. I don't really have a good answer for that. I guess I would say like, if you get involved in an organization like the field botanist, Ontario, for example, you're going to encounter a lot of other consultants just like me. And that's, that's a good way to connect with other consultants and learn more about different companies and the type of work that they're doing. And get involved with things like, like ELB. This is another great way to connect with people.
Meredith Meeker:Yes. Thank you for the plug. Definitely. You know, make sure that you're signed up for ELB. Cause we, we talked to very cool people like you will. So thank you so much for taking the time to sit down with me. I really enjoyed this chat.
Will Van Hemessen:This was fun.
Meredith Meeker:A huge thank you to will for sharing his story with us. And also for being one of ELBs mentors. If you are interested in learning more about our mentorship program and how to connect with, well, check out our webpage. And of course, if you want to hear more episodes, don't forget to like, and subscribe to our podcast. So you don't miss it up. And follow us on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram, to find out more about job opportunities and cool events. This is your final reminder to sign up for our AGM and the panel on ecosystem restoration, which is on March 31st and check out our Facebook page where you can grab tickets or even nominate yourself to be on the ELB board. Okay. That's it for me? Talk to you again next week until then happy trails.