S3 E05 Jackie Ho - Protected Places Coordinator at Ontario Nature

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0:01

Hello, and welcome to all my fellow. Heterotrophs I'm your host. Meredith beaker. And this is another episode of how do I do this? An environmental career podcast. Okay, now that winter is upon us and the days are shorter. I'm certainly glad I'm a heterotroph. And after a long day outside coming in. To the house. It's nice and warm. My cheeks are flushed and you can just sit back and enjoy a hearty bowl of soup. It is one of my favorite things about winter. It is officially soup season. And while it doesn't totally make up for the lack of sun, it certainly helps. And so did my conversation with this week's guest, Jackie ho. Jackie is the protected places coordinator. I don't Terrio nature. But before that Jackie was at Harvard college where she got a BA in integrated biology, completing tree, bring research. She also recruited students into conservation work. Through the Harvard college conservation society. And now Jackie sits on the board for emerging leaders for a biodiversity. And she's actually my co-chair. So I was super excited to sit down with her So let's get into it.

Meredith Meeker 1:27

Awesome. Well, Jackie, thank you so much for sitting down with me. I'm really looking forward to this chat and before we get into it, can you just state your full name and your pronouns?

Jackie Ho 1:39

Sure. My name is Jackie ho and I teach she her pronouns.

Meredith Meeker 1:44

Well, thank you very much. Like I said, this is very exciting. We've been working together. With emerging leaders for biodiversity for a little while now, but I'm excited to learn more about what keeps you busy from your nine to five. But before we get into work stuff, can you tell me, like, what is your favorite thing to do outside an activity that makes you feel connected with nature?

Jackie Ho 2:07

I enjoy so many activities outdoors. I think. Going out, camping and hiking and canoeing with friends and family. Those times are definitely my favorite. But that's very seasonal and weather dependent. And so my day-to-day answer would be. Just taking care of my plants at home and going on walks in my neighborhood. I love noticing how the weather and flowers and trees change with the seasons. And there's so much nature, even in urban cities.

Meredith Meeker 2:44

We are definitely experiencing some seasonal changes. Now winter feels like it's upon us. It's imminent, but it's also exciting. It is really, I feel like we're very privileged to be in a country with four seasons. Well, not country province with four seasons and yeah, it's something I really enjoy. And I guess that nature connection probably spills over into your job. Can you tell us a little bit about what you do and why it is what you do is so important?

Jackie Ho 3:15

Yes. So I work at, onto your nature as our protective places coordinator. Ontarian nature is a provincial conservation organization that aims to protect wild species and wild spaces, which functionally means that our organization works as a land trust and network. And we run a variety of programs and projects in conservation science, education and public engagement. In my role, specifically as protective places for me. I do a lot of policy research and communications and I'm raising awareness and advocating for more protected areas within the province. It's important for so many reasons. Most people are aware of climate change and biodiversity loss being. Interconnected crises that we are facing right now. But there's not always people who are speaking up and regularly talking about protecting areas and habitats as human pressures grow. And I think our organization is really there to speak up for nature. As our cities and needs grow, I think we need to protect our remaining green spaces and really value them for our wellbeing, our health and together we should be smarter about development of our

Meredith Meeker 4:36

cities. Okay. That sounds like you're covering a lot of ground to make some really important stuff, which is amazing. You know, so many times we talk about like, how were we going to really turn this environmental situation around? And it really seems to come back to like communication and protecting places. And that seems like that's really wrapped up in your job. Which is amazing. And Ontario nature is a pretty big name in our province. I would think, you know, it even has a bit of a national reputation for being an excellent organization. So can you tell us a bit about your journey and how you got to where you are now working with Ontario nature?

Jackie Ho 5:21

Yeah, of course. And I just wanted to point out that Ontarian nature we were established in 1931. I think it's just been over 90 years of this organization, green around. And it's, it's really a privilege for me to be a part of such a great team. So starting at the beginning, I guess, growing up, I. Have grown up in Toronto. And I loved visiting the trunk with my family. I think zoos sometimes are controversial, but the one we have in Toronto I think is a pretty great place and they're doing a really important job in, in the world of conservation. And it really did shape my own journey. And. Lead me to where I am today. So I went to the zoo a lot with my family and in high school, I signed up cheapy, a volunteer there for events and summer camps. And I got the chance one year to attend the Ontario nature youth summit, which is the three-day conference for high schools. Do. And I say this a lot, but it's true that, that we can really change my life. It was the first time I got to meet other youth that had the same interest as me in environmental action. There was about a hundred of us. We got to go to an outdoor education. The center and spend time together, having fun and learning. And I decided to join the entree nature youth council after that weekend. And I've been going to the, I went to the summit every year until I moved away for university, basically sort the Unchained nature youth council. I participated in a pollinator campaign and our advocacy around that. And then. In grade 12, I wrote about it for my Harvard application and made my way to Harvard because of the work I was doing. I continue studying biology. I have a major in biology and I also studied environmental policy. And I took classes about all kinds of life from, you know, herpetology to private behavior. And climate and I continued volunteering with a number of different conservation organizations throughout my four years. And eventually did my thesis research on tree rings and climate in California, which was really fun. I was also part of a student organization called the Harvard college conservation society where I. Some of my best friends and I was able to help grow the organization and get more students into the conservation world. And I was really lucky to get several grants that allowed me to travel and explore conservation projects and issues around the world. And next spent both a summer in Suriname and Uganda. When I graduated, I didn't really know what I wanted to do. And I did have some issues landing a job in the U S before my visa deadline. So I came back to Canada for a break and to be evaluate, and I got lucky that Ontario nature just so happened to have a position open up. And they gave me a chance to learn about policy. And here we are now a couple of years later. And. In the middle and after a pandemic.

Meredith Meeker 8:52

Wow. So it sounds like you had so many cool experiences that really led up to where you are now. How important do you think it is that you were seeking experiences beyond just school? Like in terms of contributing to your journey and where you are now?

Jackie Ho 9:13

I know. Really valued my experiences and my time outside of the classroom. And I think that. Part of who I am. I put a lot of value in community and in extracurricular activities. And it's really through making friends in those types of spaces that I got, the opportunities that I did have studying abroad and volunteering abroad those come because other students in the past reached out to organizations. Okay. Got experiences and suggested that I do the same. And I think that, you know, really changed the game. Having people before me that I could look up to and connect with. And I was really lucky to go to a school that supported a lot of these summer experiences and to recognize that. Traveling and exploring and researching on your own really helps you grow both as a student and a professional and as a person in general.

Meredith Meeker 10:30

Yeah. I think it can be really intimidating to preach out to organizations and kind of sell yourself. So I think it's really important to know people who've like done that before and either. Like have tips for you can encourage you. And it means so much when you can see someone and you see something you want to replicate rather than starting from total scratch. So I think that's very cool that you had those support systems or community, but that you also sought them out. I think that's very, very cool.

Jackie Ho 11:02

That's exactly how the Harvard college conservation society. That's what we were trying to do. We were trying to get more students into conservation and connect them with organizations that they could volunteer for or intern with. And I think our goal was just to expand that and try to get more students into the field and experiencing things that they wouldn't get just through court.

Meredith Meeker 11:32

And I mean, obviously Harvard is a very special school, but I think, you know, many universities have conservation OSI societies or environmental groups where you can find like minded people. It doesn't, yeah. It's here ground roots, like at home as well, which is very cool. So do you think that would be, you know, a piece of advice you would give people who are just starting out or is there anything you would want to go back. Tell yourself before you got into this field of work?

Jackie Ho 12:04

Yeah, absolutely. I think asking for opportunities is so key and my roommate and then university was the epitome of that. She often just went out and talked to people at dinners and would come back with the craziest stories, telling me that she ran into. You know, this leader or this, this person, and had the opportunity to chat with them and get to know them. And I think that is a great life skill to have being able to network and, and advocate for yourself. In terms of a particular skillset or a piece of advice for myself, when I was younger, I think as it is important to. Get experience outside of the classroom, but also think about what jobs and skillsets you might be looking at after university. I think one thing that I did find lacking about my own university education was that my courses didn't quite set me up for the exact type of skillsets that. The job world asks for. And so I didn't get a lot of practical experience outside of academic research and that's something that's also hard to get because I went to school outside of Ontario and a lot of environmental work can be location specific and understanding the rules and regulations of a location. But I do wish I did more internships that got me out into the fields. I think it's important to be well-rounded and good at several things and something that is a plus for me is that I learned to be pretty tech savvy. And even though I didn't study computer science I am aware of. The way that tech is advancing and innovating, and that is going to enter the environmental field as well. So I think in general, that's kind of my advice. I wish I had a little more field experience, but in my day-to-day nowadays I'm mostly writing and researching and meeting

Meredith Meeker 14:30

people. I think, you know, that those two points like understanding tech, that could be a really good way to get your foot in the door because a lot of senior people, they might not fully grasp how these technologies are changing so quickly and how they can be used. And so they do tend to look to the younger staff to really keep them up to date. So if you're really tech savvy, like play that up and getting those internships or field experience, like those are totally invaluable. Like you can't put a price tag on that because. I remember. Okay. I watched a YouTube video in university and decided from the YouTube video that I was going to become a wildlife rehabilitator. Like I've just set. I was like, oh my God, this is my calling. So excited. I did five months of wildlife rehabilitation and I knew I could not do it for any longer. So. There was internships can tell you things really quickly and, and help you plan your courses and your experience. So I think that's really great advice. And you know what? Now you've gotten yourself at Ontario nature. You're loving your job. Can you tell us what the best part of it? Yeah, my

Jackie Ho 15:56

job has changed a little bit too over the last year and a half. I think the best part is that I get to learn about so much and such a variety of issues in the environmental field. I'm learning a lot about environmental policy in Ontario. One particular interest I have right now, as well as in indigenous led conservation, because that is a conversation and movement that is really growing. And that environmental organizations are trying to get on board with. So I've really tried to read and listen as much as I can to different. Speakers and to leaders and that's really opening my eyes to a whole new perspective, and I think it's so important. And it's something that I didn't know about at all before it started at Ontario in nature. In general, my job is really great because I get to talk to people at lots of organizations and from different parts of Ontario. And my organization also has a huge range of projects and programs. So sometimes I get to lead workshops for our youth programs or visit our nature reserves and go into the field with the. Nature reserve staff team which is great, always going outside and getting to visit different parts of Ontario. But it's not my

Meredith Meeker 17:31

day-to-day. I mean, I, yeah, I like what you say that, you know, getting to learn new things and having a little bit of variety, like can. It might not be one specific thing, but I mean, I love peanut butter sandwiches. If I were to eat a peanut butter sandwich every single day, it might not be my favorite lunch anymore. So I do feel like, you know, variety is a bit of the spice of life. And I think getting to work for an organization and having the opportunity to really explore, or I guess bring indigenous conservation to the forefront is a very. Cool opportunity and getting to educate yourself on that. It's a perspective that I think is missing from. Our education right now and also from the professional field. So I think it's very cool and unique that you're getting to work with an organization who really celebrates that. And of course we've heard about the best part. So I think we need to talk about the flip side, but what is the most challenging or unexpected part of your job that maybe you didn't think about before you got into this?

Jackie Ho 18:43

I can certainly think of the most challenging. It isn't the most unexpected though, because I think going into this field, I was expecting this, the most challenging part of my job, especially in advocacy is hearing no or getting. No responses or disappointing responses to our different actions and requests. So in environmental policy often we are responding to government notices of information or hearing in the news that something is changing for better or worse. And. At Ontario nature are responding to these as best we can. So we're often, you know, emailing or trying to get meetings with government representatives and asking them to take one action, whether that's, you know, opposing or, or being for a change. And. They don't always, you know, take our sides. So this area of work can be frustrating and disappointing at times. But you know, it's, it's what we have to do. And, and the reality of the world we live in where there's competing priorities and perspectives.

Meredith Meeker 20:16

Yeah. I think it is tough whether you're. Hearing no. Or you're working in the field and seeing changes, being done and feeling like you're not having a big enough impact is something that most people will face going into this field. Realistically, we get into this because we're so passionate and we want to make a change. But not everybody. I mean, if everybody wants to make the change, we wouldn't need to worry about it. It would already be happening. So yeah, it might be challenging, but we need people to be pushing it and really working hard to make those changes and Jackie putting you on the spot. But what do you think, you know, is one of the biggest challenges, environmental challenges, or provinces facing? Like what do you think we should be rallying behind?

Jackie Ho 21:07

That's a big question. I think even within the environmental field, there's so many sub fields or sub issues to talk about. In Ontario we have, you know, environmental regulations that address urban planning and forestry and PCs at risk. And there's, you know, more minute details within each of those issues. But. There's a lot of local issues that are, are so important. In the last couple of years, I don't know if people are realizing, but environmental legislation in Ontario has changed quite rapidly. And I hope people are paying more attention because I think these changes have been for the worst in terms of deregulating. Many types of environmental protections, whether that's in forestry or a species at risk or the way our conservation authorities managed our archery lands and our waters. So I hope people get involved and learn about the different environmental issues that they're facing you then. And. Really practice, critical thinking when reading the news going out of their way to look for environmental news and trying to understand what legislation changes and what the legislative changes will impact. And. Questioning of course, like who's putting the news out and whose perspective you're getting, because it's really easy to hide or diminish things on you talking policy. And I think Ontario needs to do a lot better in terms of protecting our biodiversity and addressing climate change because they're such big problems that we're facing. It's sometimes gets pushed to the side. When we are also talking about, you know, how big our cities are growing and how many people we need to house. You need to remember that we need to protect her agricultural lands. We need to protect our waters. We need to protect our species everywhere so that we can continue to enjoy nature. You know, 30, 40 years into the future. And then our kids can enjoy nature like a hundred years from now.

Meredith Meeker 23:30

Yeah. I think if these are really big challenges, but like we can make a difference. And I think we need to kind of keep that in focus as well. Like. People have been using nature and, you know, going out to parks in the last year and a half because of the pandemic more than they ever have. So I feel like we have this opportunity to really pivot something horrific that happened to the world into hopefully something positive, like the protection and expansion of our green spaces. And this past year we saw, you know, very local story Def. Watershed wetland. There was going to be a warehouse built on it and it was through a ministry zoning order. And, you know, these are one of the changes that people are really opposing and there was public outcry and guess what? The company pulled out and now it's not going to get developed. So that's a huge win for that local community. And also hopefully for. Setting a precedent for people realizing they can make a difference and they don't just need to watch it happen.

Jackie Ho 24:45

Yeah. That's a really great example of a win and something that our environmental organizations are definitely celebrating. There's a couple other issues on the table now in terms of highways and Urban planning boundaries, where our cities in Southern Ontario, where I think people can really speak up and make a difference if they reach out to their government representatives and let them know what they think about these changes the minister's zoning orders. Something that has been a very contentious issue because it removes the opportunity for public consultation and engagement on environmental issues, which should be protected by Ontario's environmental bill of rights. So people need to speak up for their chance to participate in environmental planning.

Meredith Meeker 25:41

I already even know if everybody listening to this knows there's an environmental. So it's hard to also speak up for something you don't know about. So I really hope people realize that that is a thing. And it's your right. And I'm assuming that Ontario nature has some campaigns around those highway expansions. And we can link to those in our show notes.

Jackie Ho 26:05

Antoni chair has different action alerts that we post to our website. We. I don't have one for highways, but we have partner organizations like environmental defense that have right now we have a campaign on ministers, zoning orders, and one on species at risk. So people can find that@ontarianagent.org and you can also learn, and you can also learn more about issues that we're working with. At our blog section of our

Meredith Meeker 26:42

website too. Okay, great. We will put links to those in the show notes so that everybody listening can check out and get their voice heard. So Jackie, when you're facing these issues hearing, no, maybe getting the win and maybe that's what keeps you going, but. Environmental burnout is a real thing in our industry. So what keeps you inspired? What keeps you hopeful?

Jackie Ho 27:13

Yeah, the steel can be very frustrating at times, but I think we all need to celebrate any small window we get. And. Surround yourself really with others that care. I'm inspired every day by the people that I work with. I think for example, my boss is, you know, so fierce and has been working on these issues for over two decades now. And if she can keep doing this day-to-day, then I definitely can at my age

Meredith Meeker 27:48

I.

Jackie Ho 27:50

I also think part of it is that I have a sense of urgency and duty as well as the passion for what I do. So I know that my work is important and that it's important to stay persistent and, and Hedstrom. I try to take care of myself and others by stepping away sometimes from the work that I do nine to five. But I really do believe in advocating and speaking up and continuing to do what we do to protect the environment. So, you know, I'll, I'll continue down this career path where as long as like,

Meredith Meeker 28:32

A very apt quote that I read recently. I mean, no surprise Robin wall Kimar is I feel like very heavily quoted these days. But I feel like this one fits so perfectly. How can we submit to despair while the land is saying help? And I just feel like that really echoes what we've been talking about. And yeah, while we're still here, like let's, let's give it our best shot and let's try and make those changes and celebrate those wins because those wins move us closer to our goal. And I guess last kind of. Question for a career question that I want to talk before we switch gears a little bit. People are having a lot of trouble and I really sympathize with people trying to break into the industry right now during COVID volunteer opportunities aren't as available. Even some of the field jobs have been restricted because of travel restrictions. But do you think there's either like a particular skillset or something that people could do to their application to like really make themselves stand out or maybe something they can do in between looking for jobs that will help them get a foot in the door?

Jackie Ho 29:43

Yeah, it's really tough. And I also had a tough time kind of breaking into this field myself. Job hunting is, is not the best. And it definitely takes, you know, several months sometimes depending on your timing, because it's very seasonal industry. I think my biggest advice, and sometimes I think this is suddenly I could take myself. But it's to begin in your own kind of circle of. Influence meaning that you can talk about and show that you care about the environment to the people around you. You can practice your skills by writing or working on GIS or data science projects on your own time. And. Putting your work out online and trying to write and learn about topics that might be of interest to you. And over time, you know, the more you write or the more you produce, it shows people that you're really dedicated to what you're doing, and it's the way for you to practice your own skills. So, Having a place to show that when you're applying for a job, I think is, is super helpful. And that definitely since of,

Meredith Meeker 31:12

yeah. Doing stuff on your own, like not only is it going to help you build a portfolio and, you know, real experience to draw on, I think that's really crucial and will probably help you stand out. Just with that, but it's gonna also help you narrow down what you want to do and what you're interested in. I mean, personally, just doing this podcast, I've learned so much more about opportunities available in the environmental field, met a bunch of cool people and. Because of this podcast more or less, I've gone back to get my master's because I have like more clarity around what I want to do. So does a podcast have anything to do with my masters? No, but it introduced me to some cool people that have led me here. So, yeah, I think that's really great advice and building content, you never know who's going to see it. So I think that's really great and yeah, probably something we could all do a little bit more

Jackie Ho 32:03

of. I love that I actually. On the side outside of emerging leaders provide diversity and my job, I could do some graphic content for a, an Instagram page called science for everyone. And the team there is also really great. We talk about science literacy. But I like practicing my graphic design skills because I like making pretty things and getting information out to others. So. That's just another kind of avenue or things I like to do outside of work.

Meredith Meeker 32:41

Jackie, you sound very busy. I'm just going to put that out there. Okay. Moving slightly away from career stuff. This is my favorite question of the whole thing. What is your favorite nature moment? We call it nature because nature is so neat. So it can be either out while you were camping work, wherever.

Jackie Ho 33:02

This is such a hard question. Maybe I'll give, you know, two answers exploring on my own, just in Ontario. I really just love looking for animals when I'm out on a hike. And so my sister and I will. You know, walk very slowly, take photos and try to identify lots of different plants that we come across. And sometimes you just get lucky with your fines. So even in the last few months we found a salamander under. I think it was the Jefferson salamander with the blue stocks. And my sister also noticed this teeny tiny frog. I was in the little hole and a log and, you know, it was just so quiet sitting there. So still, and these are little things that you wouldn't notice if you didn't, you know, walk very slowly in the forest. So those are my more recent and favorites. A longer story. I think the coolest animal, I guess, that I've ever found my friends was in Costa Rica and it was a velvet worm, which is an animal that I don't think very many people are familiar with at all. So they are part of the, or they are also known as on a, for. And they are an entirely separate phylum from, you know, all other animals or things that you can think of that are living. They look like little worms, the two antennas sticking out and they can also shoot Calu Pratt. They're like a glue, like substance at their prey to capture them And it was so cool to think that we found something that was so, you know, evolutionarily different from everything else that I've ever seen before in my life. So I think it was really cool to think about how diverse, you know, life on earth is. And that's definitely a memory that I will keep for a very long time.

Meredith Meeker 35:25

This might be one of my. New favorite nature moments that have been shared because I consider myself like a little bit of an animal nerd. I had like fact files of just like spicy profiles as a child. And I've never heard of the velvet worm. So I'm so happy to be. And I obviously just had to Google a photo of them while we were chatting and they look ridiculous. So I hope other people are taking the time to Google. If you are not driving what a velvet, where I'm like. Very very cool. And yeah, Costa Rica, I mean, just being there, here in just a biodiversity hotspot and yeah, very, very cool. All right, Jackie, we're almost at the end last, very last question. If someone wants to get involved with your organization, learn more about what you do, kind of touched on this a little bit, but where should they go? What should they check out?

Jackie Ho 36:16

We already mentioned the Ontarian nature website that is@ontarionature.org. I think you should read our blog and sign up to take action on our action alerts when we post those. And you can follow us on all forms of social media at frontier nature. The other activity that I mentioned, science for everyone, we are. Site STI for everyone on Instagram. And obviously people should keep following everything that we do at emergently to, by their receipt.

Meredith Meeker 36:54

Amazing. And I guess just one more plug for Ontario nature. I don't know if you're allowed to say this, but you guys have a great magazine that people should also sign up for it. Always enjoy it when it comes to my door. And something that's not digital, which can be pretty nice. Oh, you can get the digital version too. But I liked the paper copy. I'm still old school like that. All right, Jackie, thank you so much for chatting with me. I had a really great time.

Jackie Ho 37:18

Thanks so much.

37:25

A big, thank you to Jackie for taking time out of her day to sit down and chat with us. I really hope you enjoyed our conversation. I know I did. And if you want to hear more stories like Jackie's, don't forget to like, and subscribe to the podcast. So you don't miss an episode and of course, follow us on Facebook, LinkedIn, Twitter, Instagram. So you don't miss an ELB update. All right. That's all from me. Talk to you again next week until then happy trails.