Matthias Hoffman first became conscious of his vision as a teenager. He and his friends in Switzerland dreamed of becoming pilots (none actually did) but Matthias's hopes were dashed early on due to inadequate vision.
While pursuing electrical engineering degrees, he realized his strength was in building things. So he left academia and worked in a variety of vision and optical startups, eventually leading significant teams.
Many people who could benefit skip their eye exams, and for more than a decade entrepreneurs have been trying smartphone based eye exams and online eyeglass sales, often with virtual try-ons. But those have been failures. The exam interface is too complex and burdensome, and people want to try on their glasses at retail.
Eyebot is an automated eye exam designed to produce a prescription at the point of sale, i.e., retail stores. It takes 90 seconds and doesn't require the person being examined to do anything special. Eyebot has developed its own technology and eventually plans to expand beyond the basic exam to more advanced screening for things like glaucoma.
But Matthias stresses that Eyebot has no intention of taking away the jobs of eye care professionals.
Host David E. Williams is president of healthcare strategy consulting firm Health Business Group. Produced by Dafna Williams.
Matthias Hoffman first became conscious of his vision as a teenager. He and his friends in Switzerland dreamed of becoming pilots (none actually did) but Matthias's hopes were dashed early on due to inadequate vision.
While pursuing electrical engineering degrees, he realized his strength was in building things. So he left academia and worked in a variety of vision and optical startups, eventually leading significant teams.
Many people who could benefit skip their eye exams, and for more than a decade entrepreneurs have been trying smartphone based eye exams and online eyeglass sales, often with virtual try-ons. But those have been failures. The exam interface is too complex and burdensome, and people want to try on their glasses at retail.
Eyebot is an automated eye exam designed to produce a prescription at the point of sale, i.e., retail stores. It takes 90 seconds and doesn't require the person being examined to do anything special. Eyebot has developed its own technology and eventually plans to expand beyond the basic exam to more advanced screening for things like glaucoma.
But Matthias stresses that Eyebot has no intention of taking away the jobs of eye care professionals.
Host David E. Williams is president of healthcare strategy consulting firm Health Business Group. Produced by Dafna Williams.
0:00:01 - David Williams
150 million Americans are overdue for an eye exam and 22 million adults have never had one, so something must be wrong with the system. But what if self-serve, fully automated testing was available in retail stores, offering reliable eye exams at the push of a button? Hi everyone, I'm David Williams, president of strategy consulting firm Health Business Group and host of the Health Biz Podcast, a weekly show where I interview top healthcare leaders about their lives and careers. My guest today is Matthias Hofmann, co-founder and CEO of Eyebot, whose goal is to simplify eye care for everyone. If you like this show, please subscribe and leave a review. Matthias, welcome to the Health Biz Podcast. Hello everybody. So I see you've got glasses on, so you probably have had an eye exam, unless those are just purely to make you look smart, which I'm going to guess is not the reason make you look smart, which I'm going to guess is not the reason.
0:01:04 - Matthias Hofmann
Actually, I do talk to a lot of customers and investors and I actually use them as a prop. But yes, I've had glasses my whole life contact lenses I'm a pretty bad correction, so I'm a minus four, what's called minus four diopters.
0:01:18 - David Williams
Nice, you know, we'll have to get some merch with some t-shirts. Everybody can put their diopters and other elements of their prescription right on their T-shirt. Well, let's talk about your upbringing a little bit first. What was your childhood like? Any influences that have stuck with you throughout your career?
0:01:35 - Matthias Hofmann
Yeah, it's interesting. I always think back at a moment in my childhood that had to do with my vision, essentially my personal vision. I remember when I'm 15 years old, uh is when my vision started going bad um, somewhere around your puberty. That's pretty common and uh, yeah, it's. Uh, I remember my friends. So originally actually I'm from switzerland, so I was born and raised in switzerland and uh, my friends, they all had this and me, we all had this sort of these dreams of becoming a fighter pilot one day.
0:02:10 - David Williams
Yeah.
0:02:11 - Matthias Hofmann
And airline or fighter pilots, because flying is cool and all that stuff. So and I remember I clocked in at like a, you know, negative one and a half diopters, which means I was not eligible anymore. My friends were and that's a very strong memory I had from my childhood about why am I not eligible for such a career path and my friends are, and it always kind of resonates. It comes back to that.
0:02:38 - David Williams
Now, did any of them end up going to flight school?
0:02:41 - Matthias Hofmann
No right, Because we were just like 50-year-old kids. None of us did that, but we all went separate ways and I took the engineering path.
0:02:49 - David Williams
Yeah, could be good. So I saw education At some point. It looks like you were in the US and were doing electrical engineering through bachelor's and PhD. How did you know electrical engineering was going to be the course for you?
0:03:02 - Matthias Hofmann
So in Switzerland we have people join the workforce quite early actually. So a very common thing in Switzerland is to do apprenticeships during your high school. And my apprenticeship, what I chose, was electronics, electrical engineering, because that was just. I just liked computers at the time, frankly, that's the main reason. I just liked computers at the time, frankly, that's the main reason. And I joined a company called Siemens and it's a very big company in Europe and also in the United States. They make trains and everything and big stuff. And I joined that as an apprentice for four years during high school. And you know you go to essentially do school three days a week, and two days of the week is when you are doing an apprenticeship at your chosen company. Cool, and so that's how I entered that. But then I went to college in the United States.
0:03:58 - David Williams
Yeah, and was that your choice, or was the family moving there?
0:04:03 - Matthias Hofmann
I've grown up in both countries countries in the United States and Switzerland so I used to. When I was much smaller, I was, uh, I used to live in California, um, but uh, no, I, my, my mom, was a college professor, uh, at the university of Dayton, and I got, essentially because of that, a free ride and, um, I chose to move to United States around when I was like 18 or 19.
0:04:26 - David Williams
Okay, All right, makes good sense. And then when you were doing that was the education. Was any of that like healthcare or eye related? Because a lot of the stuff that you did in your career was that and I saw the first hint of it with a postdoc but anything particular like in school where you were focused on that?
0:04:45 - Matthias Hofmann
No, so I very much had a focus on electronics, electrical engineering. Uh, I got into electromagnetics, uh, and then uh, became much more theoretical. It turns out I'm actually much better in practical and physical and building things. Yeah, I discovered actually in graduate school. So I went to Virginia tech, uh, for a master's degree and turns out I was pretty good in a lab and the professors wanted to keep me, so they offered me a PhD position, which I then took and finished. I was able to finish my PhD pretty quickly, mostly because I was just good at building stuff. Yeah, they basically put me in a lab and you know, we wrote a bunch of research papers and I got the PhD. And then I got an offer in Boston to do a postdoc at Harvard Medical School, which of course I took, and we moved to Boston with my now wife.
0:05:41 - David Williams
Yeah, nice.
0:05:41 - Matthias Hofmann
All right.
0:05:42 - David Williams
Well, it's all coming together. So you know, when I was at Boston Consulting Group a long time ago, the culture is like a one firm culture but all the offices are a little bit different and some of them reflect national culture and, like the US is a pretty good mix between kind of the conceptual and the pragmatic. And the example I always think about is France, because they would say it's like well, that works great in practice, but like, will it work in theory? You know sort of making fun of them. It sounds like you had actually something that was actually working and I think there are actually some contrasts. I'm not saying that's the Swiss culture specifically, but it is interesting to talk about, you know, doing a PhD and a lot of it being pragmatic yeah, it always to me and that's actually the main reason for me also to transition from academia into startups.
0:06:40 - Matthias Hofmann
Yeah, a guy that just started his first startup and that is essentially a very important moment in my life where, on a sudden, this guy you know it was the first smartphone-based eye exam or vision exam that existed in 2012, that came out of the MIT Media Lab. It was a spin-out and I was enthralled by the idea of like wow, is this really possible?
Can you use smartphones to do an eye exam? And I've always been. My background is optics and I've always been interested in that and always been interested in startups and how does that all work? And I didn't care at all about if this company was going to work or not. All I knew at the time is I didn't care at all about if this company was going to work or not. I wanted to. All I knew at the time is I'm going to hang up my academic coat and this is what we're going to do. I'm going to just join startups and I've been in multiple startups since then. Some great ones, some become, became massive companies and others just flamed out. And you know, that's. That's your past.
0:07:45 - David Williams
That's how it is, so was it. Was that first one, was that inetra, or is it something else?
0:07:50 - Matthias Hofmann
that's right. So the first uh startup that I joined was inetra was the first engineer at that company. It was really just fresh. It got started off of a actually, um, a ted talk. Actually, yeah, the mit professors gave a TED Talk and Vinod Khosla, which is one of the biggest venture capitalists in the world, gave the founders essentially a $1 million personal check and they're like, hey, start your company now, because we should bring smartphone-based vision exams into everybody's hands. Yeah, and one of the founders, they had basically a million-dollar check in their backpack and they were like gingerly trying to get back to the hotel room. Yeah, and one of the founders you know, they had basically a million dollar check in their backpack and they were like genuinely trying to get back to the hotel room.
0:08:28 - David Williams
Yeah, that's pretty funny. So then I saw it like most of the stuff as I'm looking along looks like it's related to the eye. It looks like you like veered slightly at Formlabs, although I bet there's some sort of optics involved in that, certainly some physical thing that was being made. Those are the 3D printers, if I recall.
0:08:45 - Matthias Hofmann
That's correct. Yeah, so Formlabs is a multi-billion dollar 3D printer company today. That was not the case 10 years ago. 10 years ago, it became a name around the makerspace community because at that time, kickstarter was also relatively new your knee, because at that time Kickstarter was also relatively new and Formlabs did a Kickstarter the most successful Kickstarter at the time, which was a $3 million raise through Kickstarter, which kind of at the time was unprecedented. And just that company just kept growing and kept getting bigger.
And I was there early on right after that Kickstarter and I was quickly sort of one of the things that a rule that I learned is, if you get into a fast growing startup, don't be picky about what you get, about what you get. Just get something and just do the absolute best you can at delivering and building those things, because you will get bigger assignments as you go. And that's what I did. I just kind of got into that rocket ship and held on and I eventually was able to lead what's called the print process team. So it's one of the major engineering teams that creates the secret sauce or the thing that actually makes the print happen, the 3D print happen. So it's called the print engine and yeah, I built that team up to about 11 or 12 employees of some of the best researchers on the planet. And yeah, and after that, I joined a cancer research startup.
0:10:29 - David Williams
I'm just going to go back to what you were saying, though, on on form labs and the and the idea of like. If you go in a like at an early stage of a really fast growing startup, just get in anywhere, cause there's going to be a lot of opportunity. I would contrast that with you know what you were talking about in your with your high school apprenticeship with a company like Siemens, not to pick on them, but like a very big, well-structured company. If you're leaving another place to go there, it really matters what level you get in at and what particular area, because there's not nearly as much kind of freedom of motion. You could do a great job, but you might actually have to go outside the company to get that next promotion. So, like a more fluid kind of a space like Formlabs and it's not for everybody and it's also sort of easier said than done You're also, if you're an average player, you know you're not necessarily gonna do that well.
0:11:17 - Matthias Hofmann
Yeah, exactly right. So the fast growing startups. They require some of the best people in the industry to participate, otherwise it just doesn't work. The model doesn't work right.
Because, they're relatively loosely organized organization with not that many managers. Not that there's really no SOPs, right, there's a ton of problems to solve and you just got to pick a problem, solve that problem and then pick the next problem and you keep going, and so at the same time, that's actually also where a lot of startups struggle that grow fast. Yeah, is that loose organization. I mean, you know, I remember reading an article once about my, about Google. Actually, early days, early days, google 1999, or whatever it was, or 2000. And they all they said, hey, we don't need manager, we're going to managers, we're going to, we're going to build this company without middle managers. And a couple of years into growth you realize, well, it just doesn't work. You have to put in some structure and form. Labs went through that same exact kind of reckoning where it kept just getting too messy and structure was needed. But it's really hard, especially when you're growing so fast.
0:12:38 - David Williams
So let me say you said that was the next one related to cancer answer.
0:12:42 - Matthias Hofmann
Yeah, and now I learned a ton at Formlabs on manufacturing how to scale hardware from you know a couple of handful of prototypes to you know doing 10,000, 100,000 units of something and and you see a lot. You learn very fast. That's by far the best thing about startups is that you learn very, very quickly many things that can further your career. At the same time, it's also extremely stressful. So I was leading quite a big team for Formlabs and I was put in a management position because we needed management. There was no guidance from above on what that meant and so it was very stressful.
I came home after like 12-hour days every single day, and I have a family, I have kids, I have small kids, and it just wasn't sustainable anymore.
So I did my time almost three years at Forum Labs and I said I need to do something else, and at the time actually, my mom had breast cancer and I'm typically very sort of mission driven about things and my past has also been in oncology at MGH, and so I really had a big chip on my shoulder about that.
And I'm going to a company called Lumicell, which also early stage company. That was the first company to do what's called fluorescence guided surgery. So a big problem that cancer surgeons have is they don't actually know what to cut out, because cancer is just your own tissue and, yes, it can look discolored in some cases, but actually in many cases not, it's just looks like your regular tissue. So there's a lot of guessing that goes on during surgery about what to cut out and if they have actually removed all the cancer. And that was a very interesting mission for me to join that. And Lumicell essentially allows the injection of a drug and then the cancer effectively glows and the surgeon then knows what to cut out and what to keep. And yeah, I joined that and I guess my nature is to start coordinating and leading things.
0:15:06 - David Williams
And.
0:15:06 - Matthias Hofmann
I also built at that company the first product development team and started building that and putting that together Cool.
0:15:14 - David Williams
And how about 123C?
0:15:18 - Matthias Hofmann
So throughout this entire time, I've always thought back of our days at iNatura back in 2010. And I think it's fair to say, 10 years later, that cell phone-based vision exams have not revolutionized vision care. Now, there's a reason, and the main reason is actually not necessarily technology or even accuracy or FDA or anything like that. The biggest problem with cell phone based vision exams is that people can't wrap their heads around the interface. Okay, and because it requires very survey based kind of exams to like follow a prompt to yes room, like this and then do that and hold one close and then hold the other eye closed and all this stuff. Yeah, and take 15 minutes of concentrated effort, you lose immediately 98% of the population.
Yeah, yeah, so Barbara and Bob are just not going to do it, and that was the hard-learned lesson we learned back in 2012-13 with iNetra. That's why it worked and, yeah, I've carried a chip on my shoulder about that too a long time, many years, and I knew what the solution is and this is actually why Eyebot was created is that we knew even 10 years ago to revolutionize vision care, you have to essentially change one thing the in-person exam has to go away and two, you have to fix and make a user interface that works for everybody. And that is what has been marinating my head for eight years. Got it and then the pandemic hit and it was very clear to me that that is the opportunity now to start. Yeah, and that's how 123C is born, and 123C is the research arm of Eyebot to do a lot of the fundamental research to making this kind of interface possible.
0:17:22 - David Williams
Got it All right, so what? The first company that iNetra had right was get rid of the in-person exam, but they didn't have the interface part of it right, so the idea was keep that. Is that right, or I? Mean, it was just too hard to have the user experience to be able to look at the phone with all the different pieces that you described, so you had to solve that problem.
0:17:43 - Matthias Hofmann
In addition, yeah, so there's an important clarification here. So Eyebot is not looking to remove jobs or replace jobs. There is a fundamental problem in the current health care system in the United States and actually worldwide is that the only way to get to eyeglasses and also being able to fix your blurry vision and also, by extension, getting the eye health exam, is to get an appointment with an in-person doctor yeah and that's the only way today you can do it.
Yeah, and we always found that that is a bit of a um, it's a bottleneck, essentially for the industry, not only for consumers, but also for retailers retailers that are selling glasses and contact lenses and so the bottom leg is the in-person exam, and that's also the reason why about 30 million Americans, in just the United States alone, walk around with blurry vision. Yeah, about a tenth of the population walks around with blurry vision, and worldwide, 2 billion humans have blurry vision and don't have glasses. Yeah, and the reason, the main reason, is access to a person. Doctor Got it.
0:19:09 - David Williams
Okay. So what's the? So I understand the problem. So what's the solution? I mean, what's the value proposition of Eyebot? You know that you had the early experience and then, instead of marinating in your head for about a decade, what does Eyebot do?
0:19:26 - Matthias Hofmann
right is a technology company and what we do is we develop self-exam technologies that can be configured for any kind of public or even retail environment, meaning that in the future, you can go, walk into an eyeglass store, you can just push a button. It scans your eyes and we have your prescription done in 90 seconds. So it's basically push button vision exam. For public settings like shopping centers or grocery or pharmacies and all those locations, we can introduce vision care at the touch of a button, meaning that, as a user, all you need to do is walk up to a machine, a standing kiosk. You don't even need to sit down or stick your head into anything, all you need to do is push a button it standing kiosk. You don't even need to sit down or stick your head into anything. All you need to do is push a button. It automatically scans your eyes and that is the interface that we've already proven in public in multiple locations to be working for any kind of age range. So we've done tests at shopping centers.
With our new configuration, where we have 16-year-olds to 88-year-olds, we have a very broad age distribution all age ranges, all ethnicities, all income levels. It's a universal problem that humans have Vision care. 65% of humans have blurry vision, and that's just a common human condition, and everybody benefits from getting their eyes checked in terms of their health and so being able to detect glaucoma and diabetic retinopathy in the future. These are all vital things that need to happen, and Eyebot's mission is to break down all those barriers so that everybody can get their eyes examined for free effectively for free and by doing that, we can bring many more people into the fold of vision care and also, by extension, make the current body of optometrists and ophthalmologists also more successful by driving more people to their offices as well.
0:21:34 - David Williams
Okay, All right. Well, that sounds pretty cool. So what I understand, it's not just a better form factor, let's say, than the cell phone, but it's actually must be. When you talk about doing scanning, you're using some technology that is presumably. Is that an Eyebot or 123C developed technology? Or what are you doing?
0:21:54 - Matthias Hofmann
Yeah, so 123C is the research arm of Eyebot and we have a variety of government grants as well, so we have SBIR grants from the National Science Foundation to further develop our technology. And all the Eyebot technology is proprietary and has been developed by us and also is designed, manufactured and delivered by Eyebot. And yeah, so that's fundamentally how we do things. We're a research firm and we have many more things in the pipeline, including more full eye health exams as well.
0:22:30 - David Williams
Got it All right. So I understand you're talking about blurry vision and I can sort of. You haven't exactly explained the technology, but I can see. I can imagine how you could look at the shape of the eye or whatever and figure out what you know, what somebody has blurry vision and what the correction is going to be. You were talking about eye health. Beyond that, you know, like I know, when I go to the I'm one of those does go to the doctor's office. By the way, it's a pain in the neck to get an appointment, even in Boston, and it's also pretty unfriendly there and it's also pretty expensive, even if you have insurance, depending on what you're doing. But they do go beyond the blurry vision and they're doing tests, I think, for glaucoma, macular degeneration. You mentioned retinopathy, so do you currently address those things? It sounds like there's a vision to do so. Where does it stand in terms of? It's simple to use and it gives you accuracy on certain things, but is it just a subset of the overall exam? How do you think about that?
0:23:30 - Matthias Hofmann
Yes, currently Eyebot is rolling out this year with systems that are doing the division exam portion of the eye exam. So a comprehensive eye exam is actually multiple exams and one portion of that is what we call the division exam. That's the part where it gives you a new prescription for new glasses or contact lenses and that's the part we're starting with. It's currently part of our tech stack and our technology today is already doing a big portion of what's called the anterior eye exam. So that's the front part of the eye, including the pupil pupillometry as well, and we can detect cataracts, we can detect corneal scars, moles, opacities a list of over 20 different kinds of indications and diseases we can detect today. And the posterior exam is also something we're going to. What's called the posterior, that is the retinal exam that is typically used for diagnosing a variety of health-critical diseases, including diabetic retinopathy or macular degeneration, and that is something we're also working on and launching in the foreseeable future.
0:24:43 - David Williams
One of the things that people don't love. I mean, there's a couple of things people don't love but when they do go for an eye exam beyond what I described, but the difficulty of getting the appointment and the expense of it is, one is having the eyes dilated and another one is the slit lamp. You know, it's like you know the eclipse is this month and you're not supposed to look right at the sun, but somehow when you go to the eye doctor you're supposed to look at this beam in your eye. Are those things necessary? And if you're doing exams that are done for the same reason that you do the dilation and the slit lamp, can you use an alternative approach?
0:25:19 - Matthias Hofmann
Yes, there are actually multiple alternative approaches, the methods that are currently used and commonly used in the clinic. They're rooted in also a lot of tradition. Of course that's how it's been done, but there are many other technology methods to achieve a very similar kind of outcome and similar kind of scanning. And now to be clear, Eyebot is not looking to diagnose directly or replace any of that. What we provide is a screening of those components and if we detect certain diseases, we send then those patients to a real doctor for an in-person diagnostic.
0:26:05 - David Williams
Got it Okay. So there's a scanning part Now, just as you mentioned the traditional techniques and so on, it occurs to me that actually a fair amount of that equipment is actually from Switzerland, if I'm not mistaken. So one of the leading the leaders of like things like Slip.
Lamp, yeah yeah, in Japan. Okay, so you're talking about being a technology company. I heard something about the exams being free, which sounds very mission-oriented, but what is it that you want to offer? Are you going to offer a kiosk as a form factor? Are you a component of some new sorts of tools that are there? Are you going to go in a VR headset? I mean, how does it all come to be?
0:26:45 - Matthias Hofmann
What Eyebot really is is to bring the vision exam and the prescription to the point of sale, and the point of sale can be many locations.
We also are working on online tools as well with some of our partners, but mainly actually 85% of the eyeglass market is actually in brick and mortar retail and that's most likely there to stay.
Um, consumers have spoken and, in general, people just prefer to get things done in person, uh, and and also, you know, with glasses, to be able to touch and feel the glasses as well. So it's a big part and, um, and it's understandably so. I mean, glasses, uh, are make up a very big part of your self-image and your persona, and people are very picky about that. And, of course, to an extent, since you want to be able to see what you look like in person with a mirror when you try on new kinds of frames. There have been, of course, many attempts for online retailers to work on virtual try on solutions yeah, actually not been as successful as they hope, and many of the online retailers are also now looking to get a foothold in brick and mortar, because that's where the market is, and Eyebot is facilitating that transition for online retailers to gain a foothold into traditional and brick and mortar traffic and retail.
I can't say too much in detail about which ones we're working with, but we'll have some press releases this summer.
0:28:21 - David Williams
We'll keep an eye out for that. How have you funded the company up to this point? I know you mentioned a research arm. I know there's some government funding. You have private investors as well.
0:28:29 - Matthias Hofmann
Yeah, yeah. So we started with. Uh, actually, the first check was actually a VC. I was just kind of a flyer from a VC. We just got called, got very lucky, uh, one of the partners at the firm had a problem with their, their prescription and uh, it just was a uh serendipitous situation and they're like here's 150 000 and uh get started.
Yeah, so, uh, we, we, that's really how all this and then a bunch of angels we actually have three different doctors on our cap table, um, as part of the company and, um, you know, we started with about 300 000 in angel money and money and then got our first SBIR grant from the National Science Foundation, because it was very clear to the review committee that we are essentially doing a public good right To bring essentially vision exams and vision care to the public readily accessible for essentially free. And uh, our model then back then, as we propose it and as it is today, uh, is that we essentially are building a platform for online brands to be able to get their brands into the public space. Uh, and that, and that essentially subsidizes the exam costs to everyone so that everyone can access the exam for free.
0:29:55 - David Williams
It was occurring to me, as you're talking about scanning somebody's eyes and obviously making some pretty detailed measurements, that privacy and security are big issues everywhere. I hear about people cloning voices and doing deepfakes and all that. Are there privacy and security issues related to what you do and, if so, how do you deal with them?
0:30:15 - Matthias Hofmann
Yeah, so we take this very seriously and comply with all the HIPAA regulation. One thing is what we always have done is that the kiosks that we build don't actually store any data. They're empty vessels and it's just algorithms running doing their work, but they don't actually store any patient data. All our patient data immediately gets uploaded to a HIPAA-compliant cloud, got it? And then all our data is reviewed by real human doctors. So this is not a robot or any kind of AI that is reviewing. That is all done manually by real doctors. Okay, what we're essentially doing is we're putting clinical equipment, our own proprietary technology, but it essentially replicates a lot of the clinical equipment into public spaces, into form factors that people can understand and use, and the data then gets reviewed by real human doctors as if this patient was in their own clinic.
0:31:18 - David Williams
Good. So I know that you have at least reasonable vision, reasonably corrected vision. So are there things that you like to read?
0:31:27 - Matthias Hofmann
So I'm not much of a book reader. Frankly, I don't have much time. I have three small kids and this is also my fourth kid, this company and there's just not much time to do any of that. I have two things I do I work on this startup and I have my family life, and that's it.
0:31:46 - David Williams
I have had CEOs in similar situations tell me their favorite book is Good Night Moon or something like that. So some sort of a child's book may be there, but no, that's fair enough. Well, there's different times for things in life, so that sounds like a good one. I'm looking forward. I know you said you couldn't tell us where these things are, so now I'm going to go like a Where's Waldo hunt to see if I can find any around here. You're based in Boston, I'm in Boston, so I have a feeling I might be able to find one. But I'll just say right now we'll just wrap up and I'll say thanks for listening to the Health Biz Podcast today. My guest is Matthias Hofmann. He's co-founder and CEO of Eyebot. Matthias, I appreciate you joining me today.
0:32:25 - Matthias Hofmann
Thank you for the time.
0:32:28 - David Williams
You've been listening to the Health Biz Podcast with me, David Williams, President of Health Business Group. I conduct in-depth interviews with leaders in healthcare, business and policy. If you like what you hear, go ahead and subscribe on your favorite service. While you're at it, go ahead and subscribe on your second and third favorite services as well. There's more good stuff to come and you won't want to miss an episode. If your organization is seeking strategy consulting services in healthcare, check out our website, healthbusinessgroupcom.