Interview with Provalytics CEO Jeff Greenfield

Jeff Greenfield's journey is fascinating. As a child he was enchanted with magic, fell in love with Disney, and was transformed by a year in Israel during high school. 

Jeff shares how his early experiences shaped his career path, from studying biochemistry at the University of Maryland to becoming a chiropractor, all the while nurturing his passion for close-up magic. A car accident meant he had to stop practicing, but ultimately led him to embrace the burgeoning internet era of the mid-90s.

Next, we lift the veil on the complexities of modern digital advertising. We explore how digital marketing has shifted the focus to the bottom of the funnel, increasing competition and costs. A captivating case study about leveraging MasterCard data to target weight loss customers highlights the sophisticated and costly nature of today's advertising strategies. 

In the final chapter, we delve into the intricate world of healthcare and pharmaceutical marketing privacy. Jeff sheds light on the dual-focus strategy of targeting both healthcare providers and consumers, explaining how pharmaceutical companies educate providers while raising consumer awareness. The evolution from traditional TV and radio ads to digital marketing is discussed, with an emphasis on the impact of iOS privacy changes and browser policy updates. We explore the significance of first-party and third-party cookies in the ad economy and the challenges posed by their potential phase-out. 

As of March 2025 HealthBiz is part of CareTalk. Healthcare. Unfiltered and can be found at the following links:

• Spotify https://open.spotify.com/show/2GTYhbNnvDHriDp7Xo9s6Z
• Apple https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/caretalk-healthcare-unfiltered/id1532402352
• YouTube https://www.youtube.com/@CareTalkPodcast
• CareTalk website https://www.caretalkpodcast.com/

Host David E. Williams is president of healthcare strategy consulting firm Health Business Group.

Episodes through March 2025 were produced by Dafna Williams.

Transcript

0:00:00 - David Williams
Have you heard about the coming cookie apocalypse and the impact on healthcare and drug marketers, or how iOS privacy changes are affecting Facebook reporting? I had only a very vague awareness until I met today's guest. Hi everyone, I'm David Williams, president of Strategy Consulting Firm Health Business Group and host of the Health Biz Podcast, where I interview top healthcare leaders about their lives and careers. My guest today is Jeff Greenfield, co-founder and CEO of Provalytics, providing attribution and planning for a cookie-less world. If you like the show, please subscribe and leave a review, Jeff. Welcome to the Health Biz Podcast. David, it's a pleasure to be here. Thanks for having me. You know I'm looking forward to hearing about cookies or the lack thereof, or who stole the cookies from the cookie jar or however far the analogy goes. But before we get to that, I'd love to hear a little bit about your background, your upbringing, what was your childhood like? Any influences that have stuck with you? 

0:00:52 - Jeff Greenfield
Well, I think the biggest influence that I had in my childhood was going to Disney as a kid and visiting the magic shop. Magic played a huge part of my life and that made a big difference for me. So my biggest influence was probably every magic shop that I've ever been to throughout my entire life and there's kind of a continual thread throughout all my careers up to this point, even today. 

0:01:18 - David Williams
That's pretty cool. You know, when I was a kid, I loved magic, but my parents never took me to Disney, so I'll have to blame them for, you know, not allowing me to develop further. But that is pretty cool, all right. So then, after high school, you went to University of Maryland, I think studied biochemistry. How was that experience that was? 

0:01:34 - Jeff Greenfield
great. I mean, Maryland was a huge school. It's one of these schools where the whole town of College Park is the entire university. So it was a great experience. I'd say even before that probably and we talked about this earlier is that I spent my sophomore year in high school in Israel at this village called HaKafar HaYarok, which was one of the. It was a unique kind of living experience. People have heard about kibbutzes and things like that. 

This was a little different. It was actually designed for underprivileged kids, both from Israeli and Arabic families, to kind of come together and live there. So kids were sent there without their parents to live there year round, and I was part of the first group of Americans to go there. So it was a pretty fascinating experience. My parents were told that it was completely supervised, very safe and everything like that, and I remember flying like a day and a half to get there. And I get there and and there were a couple of kids that had gotten there like a day before and they're like, hey, you want to go into Tel Aviv? I'm like my God, there's already a 14-year-old and I remember coming back and wondering why did everybody change? And nobody had changed. It's just, you know, my perspective of the world had been greatly changed. There's something about travel at a young age and you start to experience other cultures, other parts of the world and you realize that there's a big world out there and it's up to you to make a difference in it. 

0:03:09 - David Williams
Well, there's a lot of different approaches to child rearing, and the Israeli one is sort of wide open and you can see that some of the freedoms that they have at that age, and then of course also the army service, shape what actually happens later on in business, politics and just the culture at large. So well, we could do a separate topic about that when we finish eating all these cookies. All right, so then? All right, so you were there, then you studied at Maryland and then you went into as I saw, I think biology and then become a chiropractor as well. Is that right? 

0:03:44 - Jeff Greenfield
Yeah, so the chiropractic thing happened because I wanted to do something that utilized my hands, and at that time I had become an expert at closeup magic, primarily using cards. So it made sense to me to go into something where I could really use the skills that I had in magic in my hands. So I went to chiropractic college in Los Angeles and while I was there I also worked at the Magic Castle in Hollywood. So I was kind of pursuing both at the same time. Doing magic while going to chiropractic college Was there, moved back east to start a practice, met my wife in California, was from the New England area, moved back to the Boston area and I thought this was it. This is all I was going to do. I was going to be a chiropractor the rest of my life. I envisioned my life that I was going to be like 85 or 90 years old, giving an adjustment and I would die right on the table. That was my vision in my early twenties about what my life was going to be like. And then one day I'm driving through Salem and bumper to bumper traffic, I get hit from behind and then hit from behind again and my elbow got jammed into the door jam and I damaged a nerve and that led to a series of events where I had to have surgery that didn't work and I ended up not being able to take care of patients anymore. And at my late twenties, early 30s, I was kind of lost. I didn't really know what I wanted to do. I got into managing the practice but didn't enjoy that I didn't. I got into healthcare not because I wanted to be a manager. I got into healthcare because I liked the taking care of people and seeing the progress and interacting with people. So I was kind of lost. So what I did is I took a year and I went on the road to do magic. I toured colleges all over the country. This was the mid 90s, 95, 96. 

It was at the birth of the internet and I realized that I needed to have a website. And I had gotten into this thing called NACA, which is this group that has these showcases for college campuses, letting them know about speakers and entertainers, and I was going to showcase at all of these showcases around the country, which was a phenomenal opportunity during the summer. So I had to get a website. So I hired a company to make me a website, paid them and then about eight weeks into it, realized that they came to me and they said we can't do it, it's something new. And I'm like you don't understand. Because they had bought a domain for me, magic-magiccom. I had run ads already in all the magazines. The first showcase was coming up in a week and I didn't have anything. And they said listen, there's this, there's a program called Microsoft Front Page. You can buy it at Staples, and the closest Staples to me was in Saugus Mass. So I left there, drove to Saugus, bought, brought home this, this CD and this huge book, and I did something to this day I still have not done, since I did every single tutorial that they offered. I did every single tutorial that they offered and at the end of the weekend I had a website. 

And so when I went on the road, since I'd made the website, I updated it every week and other performers and entertainers that I work with, they kept asking me who's your webmaster? Because that was the big thing. And I said, well, I would tell them my whole story. I said, well, I'm the webmaster. And they're like can you help me with this? And I'm like of course I can, but this is not what I'm doing. I'm on this journey to figure out what I want to do next and, as you can imagine, after about a year and a half of being on the road, I also picked up these consulting clients. 

And now I'm doing consulting, making websites, helping businesses and other entertainers figure out how to put their image on the internet, and I was able to get off the road and stay home, which was great for my wife and my daughter and and live the dream of every, every entrepreneur, which is work in the basement. 

And that's what I did for a number of years as I kind of built up that consulting practice. And then, as I had more and more clients, you know, once I had a website, they wanted to be found and they're like how can you get me to the front of the search engines? And so I worked with a series of developers and built out a SaaS platform called Position Solutions, which automatically enabled folks to be at the top of the search engines. It was very popular in the real estate and the legal market, which were just coming to the web in the early 2000s. And then, after a couple of years of doing this, I got kind of bored because I'd been on stage in front of hundreds, thousands of folks, and now I'm in the basement, where the heat was turning the dryer on, literally, and I'm just like, okay, you know, I gotta do something else here. 

And I asked friends in LA what was the hottest thing, and they mentioned this thing called product placement, which was putting products in TV and film, and I ordered through the mail, the yellow pages you could actually do that then and looked up some of the companies that did this, had conversations and found out that they were really good at getting products into TV and film, but they weren't really good at talking the language of marketing and advertising and speaking to agencies. So I saw an opportunity and I created a product placement firm and rented space and used them to essentially fulfill the orders that I would get for that. And then I started building a business in the product placement and brand and entertainment space, and that company was First Approach and then, as we started doing more of that, I started to have clients wanted larger scale things. They said you know, this is great that they held the product. I would like for them to say the name and maybe be featured longer. Well, in order to do that, you actually have to buy the entertainment, and so I had several clients that did that, one of which was a pharmaceutical company called Medisys. Medisys was the company that produced a product that was a filler one of the first dermal fillers, a sister product to Botox and they were facing a competitor that was coming in. The company that was making Botox was going to now have a filler. So I created for them a faux reality TV show called Hottest Mom in America that did auditions in all of their cities that were important to them. We also did an online phase and added about a half a billion dollars of market capitalization to their stock, grew their business substantially, did a similar program as well for Verizon Wireless called how Sweet the Sound, which was the only program that actually grew market share for them in the African-American community, and did a series of those and those were very large scale, very encompassing gigs, most lasting longer than a year. 

And then I had a client in the weight loss space and did some branding work for them. And then they had questions about this new emerging stuff called digital marketing, where the numbers really didn't add up, and asked me to take a look. And it was really strange. It's like for every sale that they had online they had like five mothers or fathers all claiming credit yeah, that's my child, that's my child, because back then everybody was on a cost per sale basis, so everyone was claiming credit yeah, that's my child, that's my child, because back then everybody was on a cost per sale basis, so everyone was claiming credit for every sale. 

So they had this problem of duplication, and so we needed a way to de-duplicate in this new age of digital marketing. And so I created kind of this first thing that de-duplicated, and then dug into a little more, and every couple of weeks there was a new issue that came up. Hey, can we solve this, can we solve that? And eventually got into understanding what the real problem was. And the real problem was is that in advertising there's this old saying half the money I spend in advertising is wasted, just don't know which half, that's right. 

That's exactly right, and so I found a way to be able to solve for that, and the solution for it is something called attribution companies. That started in 2008. I scaled that up to about 65, 70 employees and I exited. There right before COVID, we had clients like JP Morgan, advanced Auto Parts, gnc. I thought I'd done everything I could possibly do in that space. Covid came, and with COVID there was a lot of excitement towards digital marketing because we were all stuck at home. But then there were a series of changes that occurred and kind of the foundation of how the internet operates. The internet has always been free, based upon advertising. It's like old school TV you get TV for free because there's advertising. Now things in TV are different. Tv you get TV for free because there's advertising. Now things in TV are different. We have to pay for TV and there's advertising, but that's a whole other discussion, so okay. 

0:12:53 - David Williams
So a question. I always heard that expression. You know half of marketing or advertising is wasted. You don't know which half, but of course, if they don't know which half, they probably also don't know is it really half or not. They just know a lot is wasted, as you do the attribution and as you can track it more is it half that's wasted, or how much is it? Is it 80%, 20%, and how? 

0:13:14 - Jeff Greenfield
much does that vary by company? That's a great, great question, because in a lot of cases it's sometimes more than half, yeah, and it's fundamentally because of how the system is gamed against the marketer and against the brands. What's happened is that when we think about the concept of marketing and of selling things, there's this thing called AIDA, which is first you have to build awareness, where someone says, oh, I, I, oh, that's interesting that product. Then there's I, which is interest, and they say, oh, let me dig into that a little more desire, where they say, you know, maybe I really want that. And then action, and that's that. 

That's an old adage about the steps that someone has to go through, and you can kind of picture it in your mind as a funnel. You build awareness at the top, some people you make aware of something, and they say, yeah, that's not for me, and they drop out, and so it kind of you have to build a lot of awareness in order to get to that action down at the bottom. What's happened is that before there was digital marketing, the way that everything worked is it was very broad. All we had was TV, radio, print and out of home billboards. That was it. Maybe direct mail too. So we couldn't like target individuals. We could target like areas of the country or cities. We could target programs like the people that would watch Fantasy Island, maybe a little different than those who watch Wheel of Fortune. 

Yeah, I watched both of those you know and you could target based upon interest, based upon magazines. Okay, yeah, and that was it. But when the Internet came around, you could you know? The promise was don't waste your marketing dollars by going very broad. Find the people who are already interested. Well, if you find the people who are already interested remember that's AI Now you're at desire, You've actually cut off the top of your funnel, so you're actually reaching a smaller number of people. 

And now the world of advertising. Before the digital world, all advertising was here's the price. This is what an ad costs. Ads are more expensive If you want to get a full page ad, if you want to advertise on a specific program, it's more expensive. But it was a price. The price was set and there was only a couple of qualifiers in terms of it. 

Well, now everything is an auction. It's a real-time auction. So when you go and you load the Wall Street Journal and you go and you go to click to look at an article as that page is loading, imagine there's an auctioneer in the background that says I have a male who is now on Cape Cod. Background that says I have a male who is now on Cape Cod. He is in this age group. He drives a BMW, he likes cigars and he likes to summer on Cape Cod. How much am I bid for the top ad? 

I mean, that's all happening in real time as it pays. So that's pretty amazing that that can all happen. But what's happening is that, since the funnel is smaller and we've chopped it off, happening is that, since the funnel is smaller and we've chopped it off, everyone is hyper-focused on trying to get the same customer at the same time. And what does that do? To bid prices? They go up. If you look at the numbers from Facebook and Google, their profits are continuing to skyrocket. In fact, their profits are going up faster than the profits of the businesses who are funding them. That's what's interesting. 

0:16:52 - David Williams
That could be a scary thing. Now it's also interesting if you go after people that are further down the funnel. I don't have a BMW just for, but I've already got. You know, if somebody's already down to that lower level, they maybe already made an action and now you've got to take them away and make them make a new action, as opposed to, in a way, if I were a new car buyer for the first time. You know, maybe if you get me at the top of the funnel, you can bring me all the way down. It's less competitive because I don't have to switch away from a product I've already got Right. 

0:17:22 - Jeff Greenfield
No, it's, it's, it's. It's a fascinating process that goes on behind the scenes. I mean it's incredibly sophisticated and complicated. The whole AI piece to it even adds so much more to it because the ads now, after the auction is won, also in near real time. I can personalize that ad specifically to you. That's what's incredible. But what it does for advertisers is just the cost of delivering the ad is one thing. Then you add on the personalization aspect of it that you're hyper-focusing at a user that you want to deliver this ad to. That increased the cost of the delivery of the ad. 

I'll tell you a story that I learned many years ago for this first weight loss client that I talked about before we were able to which was fascinating use data from MasterCard. We said to MasterCard here's our four biggest competitors and one of the things we knew about the diet business is that our customers were always on diets and they would switch diets and they wouldn't just go from one diet to another. They would quit for about two months and they would start a new one. That was for market research. So we asked them can you find us people who have used our four biggest competitors, who have not paid for them in the last two months. It was incredible. So then we use that data to then target those individuals online when they were at a New York Times or a Wall Street Journal. 

Here's what we found out. So, first off, that data increased the cost of our ads by a factor of 10. So it was 10 times more expensive. So did we get customers? Yes, we did, but we lost money on every single one of those companies. That was the problem. We gained customers, but they were not profitable, and so when you talk about how much waste is there sometimes it's much, much greater than 50% it all depends on the tactics that are being used and how specific the targeting is, and that's one of the problems. 

0:19:32 - David Williams
So let's talk about where healthcare and pharma marketing stand today. Digital marketing, marketing on social media it's a big part of the economy. It's kind of right out there in terms of advertising and marketing. What's the current state? 

0:19:45 - Jeff Greenfield
The current state is well, obviously, for the last 20 plus years we have this direct to consumer marketing that's allowed, which is essentially still really new for the pharmaceutical agency, where they can directly advertise to us as consumers. So, healthcare marketing they're marketing to two major groups. They're marketing to healthcare providers to say, hey, I want to educate you about this new drug and maybe its new uses or what it can do. And they're also educating us consumers because they want us to be aware that it can help a condition that we may have or a loved one may have, because they want us to go in and talk to our doctors specifically about this. 

And one of the things we've seen since the beginning of direct-to-consumer marketing is that consumers and patients are going into doctors asking specifically by name for the names of these drugs, which is something new that physicians 25, 30 years ago never had and it used to be that pharma would only advertise in traditional marketing TV and radio, very, very heavy awareness at the top of the funnel. And then the digital is kind of that mid and lower part of the funnel to bring people in, and what they're looking to do is obviously you can't sign up for a prescription online. You kind of can with some of the telemedicine. But the pharmaceutical companies what they want is they want you to get educated. They want you to go to the site to learn, maybe download a coupon, give them the phone number so you can get discounts and stuff like that and then go in to speak to your physician about it. That's really the goal of healthcare marketing and pharmaceutical marketing overall. 

0:21:40 - David Williams
So one of the things that the digital world does is it allows a marketer to track somebody very specifically. As you're saying, I don't smoke cigars, I don't have a BMW, but other than that, you got it right and the digital side probably does know what I do. On the other hand, there's more of an awareness about privacy and I am an Apple user. Privacy and I mean I am an Apple user and one of the things maybe a couple of years ago they started to I started to see things like you know, ask app not to track or says this is, you know, this is tracked your location 10 times. Do you want to continue to allow that? And my sense is that that those were some fairly dramatic changes and probably has had an impact. Has that had an impact? Maybe specifically on the drug side and healthcare side? It has. 

0:22:24 - Jeff Greenfield
I mean the pharmaceutical industry and the healthcare side is, you know, just like finance, is a highly regulated industry, so there's very specific guidelines that they have to follow, kind of all in their own world. As it is, the internet has been since the beginning, kind of the wild, wild west, if you will, because it hasn't been regulated at all. And so you know, I always like to say, as things move one way really really far, it's going to swing back towards the middle. It always does. That's how life is, and so what's happened is that iOS did a major update, which was that apps were automatically allowing to. Once you had that app and you opened it, they could actually see all your other activity, which allowed them to personalize the experience and personalize the ads. But the problem is is that that information was getting shared as part of like targeting criteria and you could say that you know targeting criteria and you could say that you know if you had, let's say, diabetes, you could end up in a targeted group of folks who have diabetes, and that does kind of go against the whole HIPAA guidelines and everything. It's that's your private healthcare information. Yeah, they pulled that back in iOS. It's also the same way in Firefox and a lot of the way. So that's in the app world. 

In the non-app world, most people tend around the world to use Chrome browsers, and one of the ways that the internet has worked is through what we call cookies, and cookies are essentially a little tiny piece of code that sits on your machine that gets deposited there. A great example of a cookie is you go to Amazon and you log in, you authenticate and then you click the box that said would you like us to remember you next time? And you check it and you say yeah, because I don't want to log in every time, and now for sure, just go to Amazon, you log right in and that's because as you load, as you type in Amazon, it looks to see if that cookie is there and it logs you in. That's called a first party cookie, because that's a cookie that's been set by Amazon. The same is true when you go to the New York Times and you're logged in or any site, so they can automatically personalize it and you don't have to worry about logging in or what we call authenticating. 

There's another type of cookie called a third-party cookie. This is a cookie that, when you're on the New York Times and that real-time auction happens and the ads are there. Those ads are setting their own cookies. It's not a New York Times cookie, it's a cookie for the ad company. It's a cookie for my former company to track advertising effectiveness, but ads primarily do it because, in that case of Volvo, you're not a Volvo driver yet, but maybe or BMW driver yet, but they want you to be David. So they're showing you a bunch of ads, but what they don't want is they don't want you to see 35 ads a day, because that's a negative experience. And so one of the reasons they set third-party cookies is so that they know okay, dave has already seen three ads today, that's enough. 

We put limits, what we call frequency capping, on those types of things, and so the problem is these third-party cookies are also used for these targeting segments, and those can involve healthcare information, can involve things like you doing searching and stuff like that, and so there was a big push a number of years ago where Google said we're going to get rid of third party cookies. Well, the problem is the whole Internet economy, if you will, the whole free part of the Internet, which is is propped up by advertising, is all based upon third party cookies, which is propped up by advertising, is all based upon third-party cookies, and so when they said they were going to get rid of them and they originally said we're going to get rid of them at the end of the year the industry freaked out. So they said we're not going to do it this year, we're going to do it next year. And for the last three or four years they've been saying it's happening next year and then they say it's not happening, it's happening next year, it's not happening. So it was supposed to happen this year. They canceled it and they said it was going to happen next year. And now they literally just came out a week ago and they said it's not happening, we're going to keep third party cookies. 

Cookies haven't really worked as well as they used to work a long time ago, primarily because they haven't worked in iOS, they haven't worked on Apple devices, as you mentioned, for a number of years, and it just they're not as effective as they used to be for targeting and things like that. And what's going to happen is that probably very soon, in a new version of Chrome, which updates very frequently, we're going to get a pop-up that's going to say do you want to allow companies to track you, and we're all going to say no, just like we did when iOS updated, and that's essentially going to kill cookies. So cookies are going to be dead, but Google's not going to do it. Consumers are going to do it because of our preference, and that's my prediction on what's going to happen. 

0:27:35 - David Williams
There the iOS question is raised something like 75% of people. Do you know? Ask app not to track. There's some other places where maybe you can word, maybe where things are worded differently on a website where you're going to be less likely to say that's a bad thing. I want to. I want to stop it. Is there controversy or is it sort of set on how Chrome will do it? 

0:27:57 - Jeff Greenfield
Oh it hasn't been figured out yet on how they're going to do it. Right now it's just speculation, so it'll be interesting to see how it's going to be, but I think, in order for them to save face from a privacy standpoint of view, instead of it being dug deep into the settings, I think there needs for them to have a global hey, you just updated. This is our new privacy version. Here's the settings for it type of thing. 

0:28:24 - David Williams
Okay, okay Now. So let's talk about Provalytics and what you do, because I've heard about the prior companies. How does Provalytics tie in, and particularly in the healthcare and pharmaceutical world? How do you help? 

0:28:35 - Jeff Greenfield
Well, the way we help is that we do answer that question, which is what is that half that's being wasted? We also tell you how to allocate and how to spend in order to build more awareness. But, most importantly, we're able to do it without any what we call PII personally identifiable information, without user level data. So we don't need cookies. We don't have to add tags to websites, like the way folks used to do it in the past. 

We take data from the ad platforms, which is aggregated daily essentially anonymized data and we're actually able to accurately connect advertising awareness data directly to scripts that are written each day utilizing very advanced math and statistics. What's amazing is how fast computers are today, even compared to how they were two years ago, and the techniques we utilize. One of them has been around literally since the 1700s. The other is a formula that we use that was developed out of the University of Chicago in the early 60s, so we could have done this 10 years ago, but what takes us now like seven or eight hours would have taken us three and a half years just a couple of years ago. That's how fast. So the computers have caught up to calculations and technology that's been around in one case for hundreds of years. 

0:30:07 - David Williams
Amazing. Yeah, it is so early on you talked about. You know you had the vision for what you're going to be doing chiropractic. You're going to be 85 or 90, be that last patient. Hopefully you get them straightened out and then die. How do you feel now, back on on where you are? Of course you never would have wanted to be in a car crash, but you feel better or worse about your trajectory? 

0:30:28 - Jeff Greenfield
Well, it's interesting. You know I look back a lot because you know, as you get older, you always want to look and see where'd you come from, where did you end up at? And the way I look at my seat right now, where I sit in the world, is that most marketers they get into marketing because they're creatives. They want to. You know it's a big art project, if you will. They're the person who wants to come up with the big ideas, and the reality of marketing today is that it's not very creative. In fact, most marketers spend more time with a spreadsheet than their friends who are accountants and they hate that. They're not built for that. 

There's an old saying today that I'm a data-driven marketer, which is the biggest joke because they're not data-driven. They're not numbers people and the problem in most organizations today is that they think they're data-driven but they don't speak the same language as finance and there's that disconnect. What we do, what Provalytics does, is it does all the math, so marketers can get back to being creative, which I see as being somewhat stress-reducing for marketers because we enable them to do the stuff that they love. So now, if I look back when I was a chiropractor, that's reducing stress on someone's nervous system, allowing them to live better and have a healthier life. And magic is helping people think differently about things is helping people think differently about things. So I look at kind of my role in life as I'm on this role to help reduce stress in people's lives. It just happened right now I'm helping a group of people who are creatives, who find themselves surrounded by a bunch of numbers every day and not very happy about it. 

0:32:21 - David Williams
So, jeff, my last question for you is whether you have read any good books recently or longer ago, and is there anything you would recommend to our listeners? 

0:32:29 - Jeff Greenfield
Yeah, I read a great book a couple of months ago about American Indians. It's a famous book called Black Elk Speaks. Really, really, it's an old book. You may be able to find it in the library. I think you can get it on Amazon. It's someone who went to some of the original Indian tribes and talked to them, found one of the old medicine men who told all these tales about what life was like in the late 1800s, early 1900s and a lot of their customs and beliefs. It's fascinating. It's really interesting. And what's really interesting is Indians back then were really, really confused why people were so fascinated by this gold medal. That was completely useless. But I would highly recommend Black Elk Speaks. Just an amazing book, great. 

0:33:26 - David Williams
Well, Jeff Greenfield, co-founder and CEO of Provalytics, thank you for joining me today on the Health Biz Podcast. 

0:33:32 - Jeff Greenfield
Thank you, david, it's been a pleasure. 

0:33:34 - David Williams
You've been listening to the Health Biz Podcast with me, david Williams, president of Health Business Group. I conduct in-depth interviews with leaders in healthcare, business and policy. If you like what you hear, go ahead and subscribe on your favorite service. While you're at it, go ahead and subscribe on your second and third favorite services as well. There's more good stuff to come and you won't want to miss an episode. If your organization is seeking strategy consulting services in healthcare, check out our website, healthbusinessgroupcom.