#1 Who Are We and Why “CatharSIS”?

Welcome to the very first episode of a new podcast, CatharSIS, a show about the meaning of life. Meet the creators of the show, Michal and Maayan, two sisters and professionals in the field of Marriage and Family Therapy, and learn why they decided to start this podcast.

They discuss how the recent passing of their father, an Oncologist/Hematologist, inspired this podcast and the mission behind it. Having often worked with terminally ill patients, their dad had many insightful conversations surrounding the meaning of life.

Michal and Maayan let us in on what we can expect from listening to this podcast, including using their professional backgrounds in psychology to explore and cope with topics of grief, relationships, vulnerability, attachment, existential crisis, enhancing the quality of life, and much more.

They explain what life events inspired them to go into the field of psychology--including being children of divorce. Additionally, they discuss what motivates them to live every day, and how they learned to develop a deeper sense of self-worth.

Make sure to check out the music in the last 2 minutes -- Michal and Maayan created that song in 1999 when they were kids and always had fun creating songs on the piano.

The rest of the piano music was composed and played by Michal Y. Bick © 2020
Music Instagram: @paintapianopurple

Resource Mentioned:
How to Live a Good Life by Jonathan Fields

Connect with Michal and Maayan
Website: https://www.sistersinpsychology.com
Instagram: @sistersinpsychology
Email: sistersinpsychology@gmail.com 

Transcript

0:00 
It's like we have a self-preservation need in the emotional survival sense. So it's like, I need to feel validated or else I can't exist in peace, like my existence matters. And if no one reflects to me that my existence matters, then what am I even doing here? And if my existence doesn't matter--if I don't receive love and validation, what's the point of even showing up to the day?

[Michal]  0:30 
Have you ever thought about your meaning of life?

[Maayan]  0:35 
What is our purpose here?

[Maayan]  0:39 
You're listening to CatharSIS, a podcast about the meaning of life created by two sisters who are in the field of marriage and family therapy.

[Michal]  0:49 
Hello, my name is Michal.

[Maayan]  0:52
And I'm Maayan.

[Michal]  0:55
This podcast was created in honor of our dad, who was a Hematologist/Oncologist -- a medical doctor who would always ask everyone and anyone: "What is the meaning of life?"


[Maayan]  1:10 
It's a personal yet relatable podcast where we interview people and have discussions about the meaning of life, of course, as well as friendships, relationships, love, nostalgia, how to cope with an existential crisis, and normalizing grief and death.

[Michal]  1:33 
Maayan, why are we even doing this podcast?

[Maayan]  1:37 
We both recently just completed our Master's in Marriage and Family Therapy. But I think what really influenced us to pursue this podcast was: our dad passed away unexpectedly a few months ago. So, I guess we're just doing this to honor him. What would you add?

[Michal]  1:58 
Ever since we were both young, our dad would talk to us about the meaning of life and relationships, and everything in between.

He would ask anyone and everyone, what is the meaning of life. He spent his days dealing with cancer patients, people who were questioning their own meaning to their lives.

2:20
Many of his patients were facing death straight in the face rather than on the backburner. And he noticed that his patients were questioning what is the meaning of all this? What is the meaning of my existence?

And I think that's when he started asking that to himself.

[Dr. Aron Bick]  2:46 
"In a world where I'm a drop in the ocean -- an Israeli, American, whatever -- [living] in France. To be completely happy and satisfied in my environment, all I need is one friend.
Two friends, it's a luxury.

The ultimate friend is when you open up your soul to, the one you share with, the one who actually gives you the full reaffirmation that you thirst for. We all do that. We all have the thirst for reaffirmation."


[Michal]  3:14 
His meaning of life was Reaffirmation: Reaffirmation of self, Reaffirmation from others.

And what does it mean to have your meaning of life be reaffirmation?

What are some other ways that one may describe their meaning of life?

[Maayan]  3:30 
Yeah, our dad always challenged us and talked all about the purpose of life and what it means to even be here. I like that he always asked whether it was a waiter, waitress, professor, doctor, patient--he asked everybody, what is the meaning of life?

And it's interesting because if anyone knew what the meaning of life was, it was him.

[Michal]  3:52 
Yeah, I think he lived his meaning of life every single day. He definitely felt reaffirmed being of service as a medical doctor intellectual stimulation, the human connection.

And with his energy of feeling reaffirmed, I think that he was able to reaffirm others.

And I've been wondering recently: What does it mean to need validation from others? And why do humans come into this world needing validation at all?

[Maayan]  4:21 
I think that's part of our, you know, human, animalistic tendencies. When we are a human, when we are a mammal, we have certain needs that need to be met.

And you know, as time went on -- as more research started being expanded on -- humans have researched on this topic and realized that, you know, people actually need love to feel better and to make life worth it.

4:50
And not just love in the basics of ways, but you know... What is love? Feeling heard, feeling seen, feeling like you matter.

And I think it's both an easy and hard concept to grasp.

[Michal] 5:05 
Yeah, I think our dad was exploring what that meant for himself as well: Reaffirmation, Love Validation.

And, to me, it's just interesting WHY we are socially wired to connect.

In that connection, we experience that reaffirmation. I think that's what our dad was exploring.

[Maayan]  5:33 
He was also exploring, you know, because death is such a thing in this life, our dad also really just focused and honed in on life: What is life? And why does it feel good when you make the right choice? Or say the right thing? Or why does it feel good when somebody praises you?

Why do children, for example, learn in a more efficient way, when their small achievements get praised? It reminds me of Skinner's conditioning, and he talks about how learning happens through rewards and punishments for our behavior.

And so it makes sense why we learned through the good things, we also learned through bad things, of course.

[Michal]  6:23 
So you're saying that the good things is: the good feelings of love and validation and reaffirmation that we feel?

[Maayan] 6:31 
Yeah. Because why else would you complete a task? Because it's rewarding. Not just for yourself, but also for the others that praise you.

[Michal]
Yeah.

[Maayan]  6:38
I mean, I'm also thinking about in the child's lens, because I work with children in my career.

But I think I'm just fascinated by the whole concept of life and death. And I feel like our dad really helped me cope with that, because, I mean, it's really just a popular fear, and not just only about ourselves dying, but of the ones that we love that are dying.

And he always received from his patients, that question, "Am I going to die?" and he would always respond, "Well, everyone dies. It's not about IF you're gonna die, it's WHEN."

And my dad, our dad, really worked hard as a physician to ensure that people maximize their time here on Earth. I think that the way he was and what he contributed to society, and our lives, really had a huge impact on us, let alone others.

[Michal]  7:29 
I love what you said: "To ensure that people maximize their time here on Earth." I think that was our dad in a nutshell.

And that is part of the legacy he gave to us: living our lives in a way where we can get the most nectar out of each day, each interaction, each bonding moment, being of service to others, taking good care of ourselves and our loved ones.

7:55
Serving the cancer population has given me more insight into what really goes on for a person who gets a life-threatening diagnosis, I get to talk about why people are motivated to live every day.

And it's an interesting concept to me. Like, why am I personally motivated to live every day? And aside from having a built-in biological mechanism to survive, why am I pulled to survive?

Have you ever wondered about that?

[Maayan]  8:26 
Yeah, of course, I think that question actually, is a big reason why I chose to enter this field, into the marriage and family therapy field, and not just the idea of what makes life better for me, but also, what makes life better for others?

And you know, just as therapists, as we're required to be educated on sex education, the trans community, etc., we're also expected to understand what's going on in society.

And that's important because if we understand what's happening from a systemic lens, what's happening in society, what's happened on a global level, what's happening in the world around us, then we can better understand our client, treat our clients through prevention and intervention -- but also, you know, be better within.

And what's happening in the world right now with the COVID 19 pandemic, with racial injustices, with war, with genocide -- there's a lot happening.

And, you know, yes, our biological mechanism is to survive. But how do we continue persevering when there's so much chaos and destruction in this world -- especially when it affects us, individually speaking?

[Michal]  9:42 
Yeah. So that's what makes me think that Community is so crucial in that pull to survive. Without a good community, I think people struggle a lot more.

[Maayan]  9:56 
Yeah.

So Michal, this is a podcast about the meaning of life, I think listeners should get to know what we think our meaning of life is or what fuels us. So I want to ask you: what is your personal meaning of life?

[Michal]  10:14 
My personal meaning of life is through the theme of Connection: Connection to self, to other in a relationship, to family, to friends, community, service.

And on that note of service, I think that this is the most meaningful job, meaningful career that I could ever, ever be in.

I feel really lucky and honored that I'm able to have such really intimate conversations in the therapy room with my clients. And there's something about even that connection that feels very meaningful.

You know, I was always interested in the way other people thought, in the way other people felt, how they perceived their own reality, how they perceived themselves.

And growing up, from adolescence, through my 20s, I really thought a lot about the importance of choice in a person's life, and how no matter what is going on for someone in their external environment, can they choose? Can they make choices to have connections that transcend what's going on in their external reality?

And I think it goes back to what you were saying earlier about maximizing our time here on Earth,

12:03
I am really passionate about being able to enjoy your time here on Earth, and that it doesn't have to be dependent on external circumstances.

My motivation to work in marriage and family therapy, and my meaning of life is: How can I still enjoy my life despite what's going on in my external environment? And to me, that answer is Connection.

12:32 
How about you? What's your meaning of life?

[Maayan] 12:36 
I loved what you said.

My meaning of life. Such a big question. Every time I hear that question, I'm just like: pause.

Yeah, I mean, it's pretty similar. I'm really passionate about psychology, more specifically, systemic psychology.

And actually, the definition of systemic psychology is that a person cannot be viewed in isolation, but in fact, as a product of their system, as a product of their family system, their societal system, their context, their ontological context, their epistemology.

13:11
And I do believe in change, which is also what led me to this mental health career of marriage and family therapy and just the field of psychology in general.

I really do believe that people can change and I believe that they can change in the context of relationships. I think healing can happen in the context of relationships.

Since I was really young, I've always been passionate about relationships as a whole. As soon as I started working on myself, understanding what it means to have self-love, self-compassion, compassion, for others, doing the work.

The work is all about finding meaning and doing what you need to do to increase your self-worth and self-love and to maximize your time here on earth.

And I also feel like it's being of service -- helping others maximize their time here on earth and teaching them coping skills to deal with times of uncertainty, and how to build resilience and all that good stuff to help you live a better quality of life.

[Michal]  14:16 
So how do you think a person can increase their self-worth and their self-love?

[Maayan]  14:21 
Well, I can just speak for myself here. I think it was education.

You know, going through a master's program, getting deeper with myself, helping myself understand what I wanted, in a relationship with a friend, a partner, a sister, knowing what felt good to me, knowing to turn away from things that didn't feel good to me letting go of things, places and people that no longer served me or served a purpose.

14:51
And I think also just going through a whole master's program in psychology, in marriage and family therapy, learning how to be in a relationship and understanding that it's not assessing how a relationship is when it's great. I mean, of course, there is a part of that. But what really assesses the health and sustainability of a relationship is how you are in conflict.

[Michal]  15:18 
It makes sense to me that you got inspired to learn more about healthy conflict versus unhealthy conflict, because of our parents' divorce. So I'm curious how you educate others in healthy conflict versus unhealthy conflict?

[Maayan]  15:37 
Well, it's not about telling people, Oh, this is healthy conflict, this is not healthy conflict. It's more about holding a mirror so others can assess for themselves. Does this feel good? Does this feel sustainable?

And of course, I'm talking more maybe about friendships or partnerships.

Part of my job is helping parents communicate with their children and understanding their children's needs and how to meet their children's needs. So I mean, conflict is always something that is going to happen in relationships, it's you can't avoid it, you can just learn to navigate through it.

[Michal]  16:19 
Having the education and willingness, even, to learn how to navigate through conflict is a huge first step.

There's an underlying theme here for both of us, I think. And it's that feeling of needing to feel self-worth.

[Maayan]  16:41 
Yeah, this actually reminds me of a quote, it's by a man named Jonathan fields. He wrote a book called How to Live a Good Life.

And he has a quote that says: "Belonging begins with safety. There needs to be an understanding, either explicit or strongly implied, that this is a place and a relationship where you feel safe enough to be the real you."

I really like this quote, because it helps us understand a little bit better that we also feel self-worth in the relationship with others AND the relationship with ourselves. And, you know, feeling safe within ourselves with others -- that is part of feeling seen.

13:27
And we are meant to live a meaningful existence and meaning, in my opinion, is the core of belonging. In order to even feel belonging, we need to feel safe in the environment we immerse ourselves in, and that includes safe in the relationship we have with ourselves.

In my opinion.

[Michal]  17:43
In my opinion, too. I agree with you. I think we need to feel emotionally safe in order to even show who we are to ourselves, first and foremost, before we can show that to others.

[Maayan]  17:58
Yeah. And I think this whole concept is just interesting to me because we depend on our primary caregivers to provide us with the foundation of implementing a security within.

But unfortunately, that's not always the case. I mean, that's "in a perfect world."

But the good news is, we do have some power over the steps we take to attract security, safety and belonging into our lives.

I think it really does stem from the relationship with ourselves or surrounding ourselves with people that are good for us, that help us feel that self-worth. So we could be of service to them.

[Michal] 18:35 
Yeah, it's like we have a self-preservation need in the emotional survival sense.

So it's like, I need to feel validated, or else I can't exist in peace. Like, my existence matters, and if no one reflects to me that my existence matters, then what am I even doing here? And if my existence doesn't matter-- if I don't receive love and validation-- what's the point of even showing up to the day?

19:03
So, as we're discussing this idea of emotional preservation, I'm thinking about Reaffirmation again, and just how we are as human beings...

...how we have this need to be seen, that we're basically saying to each other in a relationship: I need to feel safe, first and foremost, and then: see me tell me that my existence serves a purpose be the reason I feel good inside, remind me that my time on earth is useful and needed.

And I'm very passionate about making sure you feel that way within yourself so that your relationships may reflect that to you.

[Maayan]  19:53 
Hm. Yeah. I think you're right. I think we need love and we need to feel loved. We need to love others and we need to feel loved. But you know, it's not such an easy answer. And there are so many things that can affect a person's psyche.

[Dr. Aron Bick]  20:13 
"Because what happens is: If you lack reaffirmation, it affects your psyche. Psyche affects the neurons. The neurons affect the immune system. The immune system affects illness. How do you control illness through reaffirmation?"

[Maayan] 20:32  
I feel like the bad type of depression, really deep depression, can be equated to stage four cancer almost. Sometimes, there is no reason. 

Sometimes it's a chemical fluke in your brain, why you are feeling sad. 
Or sometimes a switch flips, and all of a sudden you are diagnosed with Schizophrenia.

[Michal] 21:00  
A genetic switch?

[Maayan]  21:01  
yes, a genetic switch. And I really think that it's important to bring these topics, these mental health issue topics to light, and to normalize them. Because this is part of our life. 

This is part of life. It's part of human anatomy, it's part of human personality, it's part of human experience. 

[Michal] 21:24
Yeah and that's a big reason why  I'm really passionate about destigmatizing these mental health topics and mental illness, in general, is because it's going back to feeling that your existence matters. 

And I wonder how can one feel that way? How can one feel that their existence matters, without having that necessarily reflected to them from the external world? 

Is emotional self-preservation something we just really need confirmation of from others? 
Or is there a way to feel it on your own? So that leads to-- that's part of self-worth.

[Maayan]  22:03  
I mean, I also think it's complicated. It's not a one size fits all. And it just reflects the mysteries of this life and almost adds to the existential crisis that many of us feel.

[Michal]  22:15  
Yeah. And it may just be a lifelong process. I don't think that you figure out the answer when you're 26 and then that's it for the rest of your life. 

I think that the more -- as you said, as we've been saying -- the more that you educate yourself, the more you learn, the more life experience you have, I think the meaning of life becomes different, your self-worth level becomes different, your idea of what you're even wanting for your life...

[Maayan]  22:47
Yeah, you know, it reminds me: Our dad used to say, "The meaning of life is to create your own meaning."

[Michal] 22:54
Would you say you're creating your own meaning, Maayan? 

[Maayan]  22:57
I think so. And I even think, especially starting this podcast with you, with a sister -- I think this is a very vulnerable thing for us to do. 

[Michal]  23:07
Yeah. 

[Maayan]  22:09
It really reminds me of Brené Brown's quote about creation. She says that to create is the most vulnerable thing that there is to do. 

And you know, Brené Brown talks a lot about vulnerability and the importance of it, and that's how you get through to society, to people. And that's how you elicit change.

[Maayan]  23:33
She goes: "To create is to make something that has never existed before. There is nothing more vulnerable than that." 

[Michal]  23:39
Yeah. I think that's very true. What does that quote mean to you?

[Maayan]  23:46
I think that it means to create something is a very vulnerable act. And it's how you get through to people sometimes, whether it's through art, through media, through storytelling, through creation -- any type of thing that you can be creative in.

That also is why I love therapy so much. I think where there is a rhythm and a process and interventions and a plan, it's also a creative process. You have to know your audience. It's language. Language is powerful. 

It's very fascinating to me. I love all of this.

[Michal]  24:31
Me, too. I also love hearing you talk about it, too. You really light up when you talk about this, Maayan.

[Maayan]  24:39
Thanks, you also do.

[Michal]  24:41
But in terms of the Brené Brown quote, I really agree with that: Creating something that's never been before, is so vulnerable. I write songs and play the piano, and that's a very vulnerable process to share with others. 

[Maayan]  25:00
Shout out to Michal on the piano throughout this entire podcast.

[Michal]  25:03
Thank you, thank you. Reaffirmation. 

But, you know, for me -- and I think for other creative people -- it's a very vulnerable process because you're channeling all your life experiences, all your interpretations of the world, coupled with your emotions, into a work of art.

And in an abstract way, it's like people are seeing who you are without having that conversation to get to know who you are. It's kind of like, in 2-3 minutes, they're getting a deeper glimpse into who a person is that they otherwise would not have in a conversation.

[Maayan]  25:42
Yeah, definitely. 

This is why I'm so excited to start this podcast: it's an opportunity to be vulnerable with whoever is listening to this, AND at the same time, offer that piece of hope and universality. 

Our podcast is called CatharSIS, capital S-I-S. It's a place to vent. We're going to be interviewing people: some of our dad's patients, some of his friends, some of our friends, some people we met through people, some people we met on social media. 

It's kind of personal, but I think it's relatable, too. Everyone we're interviewing has a story. Everyone in this WORLD has a story. 

I think it's so important to be heard. And I feel like this podcast offers an opportunity for connection and for hope. 

[Michal] 26:29

Yeah, absolutely. My hope is that we can help at least one person listening feel less alone and more connected. That the questions we have and the journey that we're on can all be normalized. 

[Maayan] 

Yeah, exactly. I think a big goal for us, for starting this podcast, is to normalize people's feelings, behaviors, to normalize mental health issues, to destigmatize mental health issues, to normalize death and grief. 

To normalize things and to call out things that make life harder. We want to call out things that make life harder in order to build that awareness. And just for that educational piece.

[Michal] 27:16

We want to call it out, we want to own it, we want to talk about it. 

[Maayan] 

So, thank you so much for listening to our first episode of this podcast.

[Michal]

With that, just a reminder: in our next episodes we will be interviewing people, so make sure to look out for those.

[Maayan]

Yes. Feel free to leave us comments. Our Instagram is called Sisters In Psychology, so you are welcome to DM us.