Unknown Origins

Leticia Pettená on Brand

October 06, 2020 Unknown Origins Season 1 Episode 5
Unknown Origins
Leticia Pettená on Brand
Chapters
1:04
What inspired and attracted you to brand leadership and entreprenuership?
5:44
What is your Creative Process?
32:02
What are the key skills needed?
36:29
Lessons learned: Pitfalls to avoid & keys to success
41:21
What is your vision for the future?
Unknown Origins
Leticia Pettená on Brand
Oct 06, 2020 Season 1 Episode 5
Unknown Origins

When a brand connects emotionally to its consumers by providing authentic, personalized, and unique experiences - the alchemy happens, and brand love is created by establishing trust, making people feel good, confident and connected to something greater.

From building brands in Brazil and the United States, Leticia Pettená is dedicated to changing behavior for the better by influencing corporate cultures and societies through strategic focus, creative thinking, and technology innovation - helping the likes of Itaú, Natura, IBM, Nestlé, Rise Ventures, Beleaf*, Verde Asset Management, and Beautybox to reimagine their brands. 

Web: www.unknownorigins.com
Twitter: UnknownOrigins9
Instagram: unknownoriginsuo77

Show Notes Transcript Chapter Markers

When a brand connects emotionally to its consumers by providing authentic, personalized, and unique experiences - the alchemy happens, and brand love is created by establishing trust, making people feel good, confident and connected to something greater.

From building brands in Brazil and the United States, Leticia Pettená is dedicated to changing behavior for the better by influencing corporate cultures and societies through strategic focus, creative thinking, and technology innovation - helping the likes of Itaú, Natura, IBM, Nestlé, Rise Ventures, Beleaf*, Verde Asset Management, and Beautybox to reimagine their brands. 

Web: www.unknownorigins.com
Twitter: UnknownOrigins9
Instagram: unknownoriginsuo77

Roy Sharples:

Hello, I'm Roy Sharples, and welcome to the unknown origins podcast series The purpose of which is to deliver inspirational conversations with creative industry experts on entrepreneurship, pop culture, art, music, film and fashion. Today's focus is brand, which I have the pleasure of chatting with tcaa putana who is the founding partner at Marcus com SAL and Venter of Brandon bought an impact business enthusiastic from building brands in Brazil and the United States to changing behavior for the better by influencing corporate cultures and societies, through strategic focus, creative thinking and technology innovation, helping the likes of a to the to the IBM Nestle rise ventures belief that the asset management and beauty box to reimagine their brands. Hello and welcome to that Tisha what inspired and attracted you into being an entrepreneur

Leticia Pettena:

in my in my story, there actually two separate things because I started my career not as an entrepreneur, but working in, in marketing, first in an agency, Ogilvy actually, in New York. And then the whole branding world was really enchanting to me, because it had the right balance between strategy and business, which was my background. Yes, and creativity. So I think, for me, that's the the very enchanting part of the branding world. You have to you know, balance both, it isn't so much about creativity, without the strategy. I think that's pretty much true for all other other humanities also. But in when we think about branding, I think that that balance is very important. And I found myself there. But But I began at Ogilvy and then I worked at future brand. And then I worked at Interbrand. So I had a branding career for the most part, and not an entrepreneurial career. But at some point, I saw myself kind of limited by the structures that were in place, and especially when you are in a country, I think that it's, it's different in the type of dynamics as per the US or even, you know, the UK, there are kind of hubs of, of the creation of brands for the brands, you know, in Brazil, pretty much the structures, especially of the smelter, national consultancies, were built to support the main offices, yeah. And they were not necessarily built to to create their own dynamics. And I started feeling a bit limited, you know, I wanted to do different processes to run away a little bit of the methodologies and, and sometimes the structure wasn't the best to do this. So I felt like I could venture actually out. My real first enterpreneur desire was to work with food, actually, I really wanted to, to start a kind of a farmers market, but not you know, in the streets, but like a small farmers market, even a small change in farmers market, but that never happened. Because as I left, integrate at the time, I started doing some some freelance work, and consulted for some brands that actually knew from from you know, other from my best and, and that became what is medical school. So today, so that nine years later, we have like an actual firm, it was very organic. It started out, you know, with freelancing with my art there, but then it became a firm. So, and then I learned to be an interpreter. I think that's something I learned the the good part and the bad part of being an enterpreneur within this nine years, but it wasn't a plan. I think, for a lot of people it is kind of a lifestyle, you know, for me was kind of a consequence of, of my my micro background. Yes. Yeah. But I think what is nice about it, and what I think still makes me keep on going is, is, is the freedom to propose, you know, to actually to to move structures and to yes to be able to maneuver things in a better, you know, in a more flexible way, especially when we think about the Creative Services, industry and intrapreneurship. And Gary, if surface business is about you having a flexible structure,

Roy Sharples:

bronzer, ultimately, over time and about trust, they help people feel good and confident and even connected to something bigger. How would you characterize your creative process?

Leticia Pettena:

I think it's a bit better, I think it's the what we look for, in the process that might change. And what we tried to do, you know, it's very Double Diamond sort of thinking, you know, that we open up, we try to, to amplify our our pre assumptions, I think the biggest problem sometimes with a process in branding is that, you know, we all have, we all assume stuff about some sort of service or product is we come with that built. So, you know, letting go of that and actually listening to other inputs are, it's very important, and very difficult, you know, to actually clean our minds and start fresh. So that's something that we we value very much in the creative process. So how are we able to start fresh, and not losing ourselves in the amount of information that we can gather? You know, today, sometimes it's really hard to to actually get a bit long, it's very easy to get lost, actually. So it's hard to, to focus on what matters. So that's the first part. We're trying nowadays to, of course, talk to a lot of people, but to get other sorts of data. So even from from social listening, or from from actually heart data from the business, what is that telling us talking to, to, of course, the target audience, and but also listening and trying to see what society can tell us about that kind of brands that we're working on? And how can we use that with truth? So I think there there are, there is one process of actually trying to find the truth behind that brand. And in those people behind that brand, so what do they actually believe in and how we can convey that. And from for a lot of what what what I've been seeing it in established brands, not just the ones starting out, is a lot of the necessity to organize and filter information. So that might not seem creative process. But I think that's where I think, especially people that come from from the design background are actually doing very well is the the ability to actually organize information. Yes, most of most of what the brands that we consult for are drowning information and are having a very hard time focusing. Yeah. So for the for the first part is like what is the focus of making choices. So after we made a choice on what we're actually going to convey, what is the truth behind that brand? And, and we we are able to, to actually strategize and we try to do it, I pick out my creative process is trying to synthesize things, trying to make things it's funny, but less conceptual, in some some way so that everyone can see. Because I think branding is about a common understanding. And, and sometimes, you know, we understand concepts way better than most people. And how can we, you know, here in Brazil, we say how can we, you know, put things on the ground and make things that people actually really understand what we're trying to say what do we mean with that concept? And so that's an important part and then we We open up a whole actual creative process, talking about the narrative, you know, how do I tell the story? How do I draw the story? How do I write that story? Or, you know, how do we say even sound that story? Now, you know, sometimes we do that we direct our clients for some sound branding, or especially UI UX right now, there are a lot of about story. But, you know, we have to do that grounding work first,

Roy Sharples:

who would you say? Are the brands out there in the world that really epitomize that philosophy and truth?

Leticia Pettena:

Well, I think they're, they're, you know, there are some obvious ones, that I, I even read that question before, and I was thinking about how can I bring some friends? Yeah, might not be the obvious ones. They are very coherent. So let's say Patagonia, I think everybody safe that one. But, or, or even Nike that has, you know, for the most part, a lot of coherence and truth. I'd say, I'd say that Google was being doing work. You know, at first, it looked like he wasn't as much focused on brand. And now it's, it's actually like, actually occupying its place as a as the important brand that it is. Yeah. And, and it's doing it with very, very nice focused, I'd say to bring, for example, brands from around the world. I don't know if you know, the Japanese Makita. Have your

Roy Sharples:

Yes, yes. Yes.

Leticia Pettena:

So I think it's completely out of the common scene. But Makita is a brand that calls a lot of my attention for its coherence. And both visually, and with the story is standing. So Makita is, is is a, it those, you know, classics, that you don't look at it and say, Well, this is kind of dated, you're not dated, is it is so. So fit for what we need right now. That is authenticity. But they've been doing that for such a long time. I think that's Japanese trait, you know, to be authentic for a long time. And so Makita, for me is a interesting brand, how they keep on being relevant. In the US, I see I'm a big fan of all birds. And I think all birds has a very compelling story. And I'd say I mean, the US there are a lot of sorry. There are a lot of brands that were born recently that have like glossy is it glossy? I think yes, yes. Yeah. Yeah, I you know, all birds. They all does brain state, they're, they're being born with a lot of, I think, purpose, you know, they have the right philosophy, but at the same time, it doesn't feel it doesn't feel we too tight, because I think that's that, that that's the, the fine line that we have to sometimes, you know, there is a truth, but the brain doesn't know how to work that any becomes way too. Theoretical becomes way too. Again, I don't know the word in English, but kind of like almost the friend is a teacher and not appear, you know, got it.

Roy Sharples:

Yes. It's

Leticia Pettena:

and that that I think it's people don't want it I mean, we don't need it anymore. Teachers, you know, anymore people telling us what to do so absent or how to be Yeah, so I think when I think all birds, Goss here, I think those are brands that that are being peers, and they are they're bringing a lot of interesting stuff to the to society in a in a interesting way. And I think here in Brazil, I mean, it's a I don't know how much you know, but not today is is a it's our I think our big philosophy and way of life. brand, not Twitter is a I think it has more than 50 years already, it's a it's a company that exists for a long time. And it was born from, from, from a purpose. So it they, they started out the the direct sales model. But we merged so that, you know, in a very, in a very patriarchal culture, so pretty much that women could work. So it was a way that women could work at home, you know, they could work while taking care of the house and the kids. And, and they did that thinking about the country's biodiversity. So they combine those two things. But since the beginning, so it's not, you know, they didn't take up a fad of yes, even you know, women empowerment or biodiversity. And this is is very, is very authentic, but they've been able to keep on relevant and being very coherent in times of digital to the direct sales model. So they were able to open up and become omni channel without hurting, you know, that direct sales model that was their, their their first start. So, I think not today it is today, when we think about Brazil is the big example. We have a lot of other brands that are being born in Brazil, but I don't think you guys would, you know, you would have the same reference not Twitter is a brand that's doing a great job. They bought all global operations for Avon besides the US, so they're now they own Avon everywhere besides the US. They they have a zup which is beautiful brand niche brand, but beautiful brand. And they bought the body shop, but they're they're growing with other brands, but they're very brands that have something in common and very coherently, you know, it's not just that big conglomerate, yes. of variations. We have another brand that's very iconic, but going through. And I think the shake up that a lot of the big iconic brands are going through, which is the town. Yes. How is the largest Brasilia actually, they're the one of the largest, like Latin American banks. And they you were the first banks to actually create a love brand. Here, every president has, you know, some some sort of positive feeling about it. Although, sometimes they don't, but they do. And they were able to do that pretty much through design and communication. That's always an interesting case.

Roy Sharples:

It really is especially like, typically, banks isn't something you would associate brand love with.

Leticia Pettena:

Because there were very also authentic in a way and also very courageous to break the mold, you know, to talk about subjects that banks wouldn't touch, or even to use color. So they had their orange there. They were the first but they're orange for 20 years now we know that time that everybody was either blue or black or dark Gray's. It means they they were courageous enough to assume the orange as their their color. And they they are very design oriented. So the and that reflected in their whole internet banking experience on there. A lot of their communications, yes. Nowadays, I think what they're going through, which is very interesting, I think a lot of brands are actually going through that is they weren't as fast adapting their business model. So they look very young and they look very attractive. But the delivery is not how you know, it's it's how do you how do you change the insights? Yes, keep them relevant. I think that's the that's the challenge. You know, it's it's easier right now to do the the creative work. Well done. Yeah, well, but the, the insights and actually having a relevant business in a lot of the segments

Roy Sharples:

is really difficult. It really is. Because I think going, like you're looking at an industry that's been fairly static. For Ayman, it's ripe for disruption. But there's so many obstacles, like from a regulatory from a process and just to really disrupt in a meaningful way, but that will said, it's great that they've made bold, provocative and provocative actions to change minds and to achieve brand love with a bank is a big deal. So that's really encouraging to hear

Leticia Pettena:

they open the open. I think the I think they were very forward always in their, their whole branding process. I mean, he was one of the first brands in Brazil that actually took care of it brand, its brand besides communication, you know, besides their ad campaigns, I mean, everybody I always did a lot of ad campaigns here, but the the whole coherence of the brand and making sure that that the brand ad had continuity, there was a from my experience, he was one of the first brands to actually care a lot of that about that. And that made a lot of difference. And then came new bank, which I don't know if you heard of exactly new bank, which nowadays is is the next banking love brand here in Brazil. I think bento is a funny trade of the country. We do love some banks. Which is it, which is funny. I think it's because we actually love and hate so much. Sometimes we love Yeah, I think it is a it is a love and hate relationship. So I think there is so much hate, or so much intolerance with, you know, the bad services, which is right, that opens up a big opportunity. That new bank is doing this in Brazil. I mean, they simply made well, I'd say they made having a credit car, a normal process and not painting the ass. Yes, made things work, and with great design and really good communication. And they made things work and are nowadays the love brand in the market. Because they made things work.

Roy Sharples:

That's fantastic. Yeah, that's funny. No, it's

Leticia Pettena:

such low expectation in the banking business here that, that when you make, you know, a credit card work just works and it's easy to have a credit card and it's easy to handle things and it's they made it work so well to they are the love friend. Wow, this end the brand is really cool. Okay, so but but me as the brand is really cool is it because the thing actually works,

Roy Sharples:

there's a lot of global themes that you can translate. And it's like at a global level, but also the ethnographic and the cultural idiosyncrasies of Brazil and how people feel and think and how they can do business. That's things that you would never really pick up unless you can or went there or spoke to the experts like yourself, you know, you mentioned earlier on the patriotic can nature and the prayed and the you can see that come through within how Brazilian companies engage and how even looking at the sport and say the things as well, you know, look at the soccer team and the amount of you know, love and passion and brilliance and flair creativity come through that that sets up a global precedent and highly innovative. So I think it's a culture that's really stemmed on self expression and, and creating love and engagement and creativity.

Leticia Pettena:

Yeah, I think we we lost some of that through the way in the last decade or, or so. But it's, you know, it there is a new generation of businesses, you know, made of do jury generation or actually, people that that understood that there is a lot of value there. Yes. And, you know, I think there was a time of a lot of massification of the American way of thinking businesses here. And you know, I think there there is still but now I see a lot Other people actually getting things that actually makes sense for Brazil and actually using some of the Brazilian style businesses, in their, their brands. And, and that's very nice. I mean, for the, for a lot of time, there was a lot of massification of even, you know, the business processes and the branding processes. And now I see a lot of our original brands coming out of here with a lot of, of attitude and, and the way of thinking. But it's, it's not it's, it's a it's a interesting moment. I mean, there are the I still don't see a lot of the the big brands doing that I see, you know, besides we're not dude, or the one I was saying, but I mean, it's a it's always been an authentic brand. And it is in the in the in the in the package. But we see a lot of indie brands born in Brazil, with a lot of attitude, as probably it is a big, I mean, there is a big boom, something that wasn't happening in the 90s, or in the beginning of the 2000 millennial here.

Roy Sharples:

I remember going back several years ago, to Edinburgh. And I remember just trying to scout trying to find a Scott a good Scottish restaurant. And it was a struggle, given the all of the global American brands that some felt like in somewhat cannot take it over. And we haven't but kind of felt that in a way, that was a very prescient concept where I thought, Oh, my goodness, you know, is the country losing its identity has succumbed to mass standardization and an Americanism and Hey, don't get me wrong, there's lots of positives and goodness and around Americanism. But when you're losing that local identity, and that's not a good thing, but I looked at more surface level than I did, as I spent more time there, I was pleased to find out that there was a lot more going on in the design and the making conduct community and that authenticity still remained. And it sounds like, that's absolutely kind of breaking through in Brazil as well. And that's really encouraging.

Leticia Pettena:

Yeah, I see that mean, I think it's a it's, it's a maturity of the market. Also. I mean, we have to look for, you know, we were dealing with things that were much more basic. So there was really hard to think on that level, and things. Right now, the information flows better. I think the market has much better professionals also so that it's easier to also to reach those concepts than it was before. But it so that to your point, I mean, there is this balance. I mean, there isn't a lot of the brands take a lot of advantage of standards, souls, and the US is really good creating standards that us as the UK, for example. The S is Japan, you know, there's a lot of cultural Brazil is not good with standards. So, I mean, this culture, oh, it's Yeah, we're not that great following rules, and we are not that great. And once we understand that, and accept that, we create a way of having standards, you know, our own way of having standards. Yes. And I think the the brands that understood that even in the US, because I think that's also changing. Yes. You know, like, Ace hotels, Starbucks, even, you know, in their new strategy is, is about blending the two, you know, it's about standards and it, but at the same time, it's about constant, local exploration. Yes. And that's that few always, you know, what people are saying right now. So, standards became principles, much more than standards, you know, it's like, as long as it's in the principles, we can change things and that's really hard for most of the branding, you know, consultancies and people to understand, you know, things, there is no plan anymore. There is like kind of a base but there is no plan. And

Roy Sharples:

it is but that is a great. That's a great example there in terms of the principle based approach and I think as well, you're absolutely spot on in terms of how global cannot block bronze. They definitely can a think global in terms of how they can can upskill themselves, but to your point as well that there is an absolute responsiveness to them around reacting, sorry, acting locally as well, where you get customizations within Japan, Germany, Canada, and other countries for sure. So that is great to see that sensitivity. But you're absolutely spot on around the that the principle based approach, and that the adaptability of that mix, it does make it challenging as well. But hopefully,

Leticia Pettena:

again, is really challenging, but I yeah, I think it's great. I think that's how we were going to mature. And when we're not in the, you know, in the, in the for brands, I think I mean, when you're not creating the principles, how do you understand the principles, and that's a big challenge. But as soon as we understand the principles, giving people, you know, space to propose and to, and I think that's the maturity that we're reaching right now. Yes, you know, there is space people, for the most part in some brands can propose a lot of stuff and doing, you know, more, more local and things on the spot more spontaneous. Absolutely. And that makes breads much more interesting to me. You know, it's, it's a big challenge for the creative process. I mean, you have to have some sort is not I don't think it's about a process anymore. Maybe the word process is about having kind of rituals, that that, you know, that we can ensure that we're all creating Yes, for the same thing. But it's more than a process, because each one has their own process.

Roy Sharples:

Yes. That's a great point as well, the ritual approach, in effect. So leading into what, what do you believe are the key skills needed to be a brand strategist, and to be able to consult from a professional services perspective within that industry?

Leticia Pettena:

And the first one, I think, is to be able to have an open mind. Yeah. You know, coming. Each project requires you to come clean and, and try to understand that what's going on there without bringing so much of your, you know, your baggage along? Yes. Because otherwise, you'd be, you know, we would just apply the same thing to the other. So it's about Yes, the experience counts, but at the same time is much more about having the tools but coming with a clean, clean and open mind. Yes. And that is, for me, it's a very important skill. The other one, and I use that word in my bio, because I really believe that this being hybrid, yes, called hybrid. So you know, it's about having a set of skills, more technical skills, like some people write really well, in our end design in our great Italian story. So having more than one skill, you know, I don't think being way too specialized. Now, at least not in my context, that doesn't, is not what makes the person that that that outstanding anymore. What I see in my team is, you know, the people that have different skills and even hobbies, sometimes, you know, some people are, for example, our bread strategies, but loved editing films, and they do it, you know, in the social network for other purposes, but they, they bring a little bit of that in strategy. So I think that I like really like the hybrid professions. Because I think our clients are the specialists. Yeah. And we're never going to be able to be as specialists in that market as they are. Yes. Yeah. That's so our role is not to be you know, the our role is to bring something new to the table.

Roy Sharples:

It's not so much about specialism is a broader set of skills, but also the cross pollination and bringing in from other fields and disciplines that might be diametrically opposed in some respects, but that bring that bring in something new in I think I think by having that outsider perspective, you can more often see the solution to a problem than an insider con, because you can you're not mesh down. And that can add detail and status quo. ways of doing things. So that's a great perspective as well. And insight.

Leticia Pettena:

Yeah, to, and to, I think, to your point. And a third skill that I think it's really it's really important is to also be more pragmatic sometimes and be more be able to, you know, understand when it's time to just stop the what ifs and let's make choices and sensitizing things. So the power of sensitizing things is really it's another great skill. Yeah. And that goes for design and strategy. So I don't speak from a normal standpoint of, of, you know, what we understand is, you know, the branding disciplines like strategy and design and yes, verbal, because I really believe the the most complete strategies, they they understand all those things. Maybe they're, they're not the best at each of this, but they understand it. And they they give their opinion in all those things. Yes,

Roy Sharples:

yes, absolutely. So looking in the rearview mirror, looking back in your your career to date? What are the lessons learned in terms of the pitfalls to avoid, and the keys to success that you would share with aspiring brand strategists and consultant entrepreneurs?

Leticia Pettena:

Well, pitfalls? Well, I say that it's better to start focused than to be way too broad on the types of clients that you that you will attend. Yeah, you know, maybe, maybe you can, maybe you can't, but one thing that I think we've learned is that it's important to choose your projects, especially in the ones that you, you identify, I want to even believe, because sometimes you can't, I mean, you know, but you can choose the projects that you identify the most with the results, they will generate, and start that way that that helps. Because when you when you open up too much, and I think that's something we've we've done, because we had to do also, I mean, you know, it wasn't easy, having the volume of business that we require for the size of the team that we also required. And I think we I would have chosen more. Yeah, the types of projects that we engaged in, so that you form a coherent story for yourself also. So I mean, you know, the, the brands that you have on your portfolio, they say a lot about you. So it's how can I, you know, how can you if you starting out, and you can choose, choose the story that you want to create for yourself? Yes. The other thing is, you know, I would have worked more on on my other skills. So I have a lot of, let's say, training in strategy. So I went to business school, I studied a lot of strategy, so retail strategy, data strategy, but I didn't study formally, let's say, writing, which is something that I really like. And I think it's really important for for brands. I would have studied more skills on the software for design so that I could sometimes express myself in other ways that it's not, you know, the same so I would broaden that set of skills. It's something I really would do differently. And I try to do right now, but you know, when you're 40 is much harder. When you're, when you're 20. Yeah, you know? And then I think what i i'd still keep on doing and that's maybe a trade is to, to be very courageous when you're entering this project and, and you know, sometimes people will will find you Way to opinionated or sometimes they will find you. Well. I don't know. That's too, too extreme. But I think that's, that's the way we build brands. It's making choices and actually having the heart conversations, you know, because sometimes, you know, I heard I actually, Jessica Walsh actually speak one time, and she said, you know, she brings up the day, whatever is unanimous, you know, it doesn't really make us feel anything. Yeah. And I really believe on that, you know, I think there are way too to that bland to watch that they don't, you don't even love or hate to imagine that, that won't make a memory and in the words is way too for brands for us to, you know, be just another one. So I think right now, the the challenge is much greater than you was because it was much easier to to, to the have some some to being the spotlight right now.

Roy Sharples:

Absolutely. So, so going forward, what what is your vision for the future of brands?

Leticia Pettena:

Well, I think that's one doubt that I never had, although I question a lot of stuff, but I think brands will always be reading fortunes. so different from advertising, for example, that I really don't know, what's going to become of advertising, I think, you know, having a your brand principles and your brand very well set in terms of how it looks, how it talks, that that's always going to be relevant. So I think that the the question right now it's in, and how does that service is going to play, I think I see a lot of the movement of people actually working directly to the brands. So that's something I see you know, the houses inside or the hubs inside the brands, and that that expertise being transferred, I see a lot of private equity funds or even venture venture funds, actually having their own partners and trying to be incorporate that process, because they understood the value of the brand in the process. So that is another movement that I see very much. I think for for how we see consulting firms now, people, there will be less of, of, you know, a set team, and the team will be more hybrid also, so and the firm's have much more of a, of a Bo broad role, you know, a project owner role, and we'll connect a lot of people, I think, the best brands that we've seen nowadays, I mean, they have they work with artists, they work with writers, they work with influencers. So you have this, this, this role of project owning. And, you know, being creative in the way because I mean, there is a lot of creativity to think on how to connect. Yeah, but it's not about doing the whole project. So I think the structures would change very much. And, and, you know, the, the moment that we live right now, he has shaken a lot of structures and and i don't think that they're going to be back to the shape that they were. Yeah, I think it's going to be those people you know, that are good freelancers are going to have a lot of work, because there is there is a lot of that. And if the person you know, doesn't have a lot of the or actually wants to be in structure, I think there will be a much more a particular opportunity to do branding within clients not only on the firm's or in the seas, which I think that's interesting also, and that changes a little bit or even within a consulting firm that actually is dedicated to to a set of clients. I see. I see that. And I think technology I mean, I didn't mention very much but Brandon was my I think my my desire to actually bring technology within the branding process. Yes. And so as a helper, not, you know, not not not making things, you know, way too impersonal, but how can we, you know, how can we not deliver manuals? I mean, if we don't want to be the ones standardizing things, I mean, we cannot be manual guided anymore, you know, our delivery should be a manual. Yeah, shouldn't be a guide. Yes, should be. So Brandon, the idea of retina was to actually have conversations about the brand. You know, if you have a question, ask someone instead of, you know, open on brand. I mean, exactly. Open the page, you know, the manual. And, and I think that is a new challenge and in our industry is very, very, is lagging behind on that, you know, I mean, we're not, we're not very up to date. And there is very little effort in what I'd say brand tech, you know, as much as there is an ad tech. Yeah. So, so I see a lot of opportunity for people to actually like and understand the technology can can, can go alongside in the creative process.

Roy Sharples:

Letitia, I really enjoyed that conversation. Thank you very much. For more information about Laetitia please go to her. LinkedIn profile:

https:

//www.linkedin.com/in/leticia-pettena-904386/ for more inspirational conversations with creative industry experts on entrepreneurship, pop culture, art, music, film and fashion. Please go to the unknown origins website at unknownorigins.com

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