Craig Whittet is the Head of the Department for Product Design Engineering, a collaborative program taught at the Glasgow School of Art and the University of Glasgow. Craig provides perspective about how great product design engineering involves connecting between past and present ideas, infusing economic, political, socio-cultural, and technological perspectives in parallel to produce new products that positively impact people's lives and society by lighting the way into the future.
Creativity Without Frontiers available at all relevant book retailers
Stay in touch with Unknown Origins
Music by Iain Mutch
Craig Whittet is the Head of the Department for Product Design Engineering, a collaborative program taught at the Glasgow School of Art and the University of Glasgow. Craig provides perspective about how great product design engineering involves connecting between past and present ideas, infusing economic, political, socio-cultural, and technological perspectives in parallel to produce new products that positively impact people's lives and society by lighting the way into the future.
Creativity Without Frontiers available at all relevant book retailers
Stay in touch with Unknown Origins
Music by Iain Mutch
Hello, I'm Roy Sharples, and welcome to the unknown origins podcast series, the purpose of which is to provide inspirational conversations with creative industry personalities on entrepreneurship, pop culture, art, music, film and fashion. Great design involves connecting between past and present ideas, infusing economic, political, socio cultural, and technological perspectives in parallel to produce new products and positively impact people's lives and society, by lighting the way into the future, by taking what is not, and making what can be by providing purpose, and breaking through conventional values, tastes and perceptions, classical School of Arts, head of department for product design engineer and critic with that provides perspective on how he is educating the next generation of product designers, by blending consumer needs, with commercial goals, to enable brands to make and bring products to market ethically, and responsibly in a sustainable way. Hello, and welcome, Craig.
Craig Whittet:Hi, Ryan, thanks for your thanks for your invite. I feel very privileged, though, looking at the list of people on your podcast on an esteemed company. So thank you. Well, Craig, I'm
Roy Sharples:sure they'll say exactly the same thing about you taking one spired and attracted you to product design in the first place.
Craig Whittet:I suppose it really goes back to growing up. I kind of grew up but not kind of I grew up around vehicles, or my father involved in the motor trade. And I always had a kind of interest in and how things worked. And not only that, but it was also interesting, I suppose, looking back in it, maybe brand, you know, what made the difference between a BMW poster afford things of that nature. He should claim barges of cars and things like that. So I was thinking about that question, Roy, when when you originally sent it? So there's undoubtedly an interest in what's the the mechanics or things and how things work? And also how how do they work? You know, how can you give identity to, to something which is essentially replicated many, many times, and many, many brands do the exact same thing, but do it in different ways. So looking back at it was entirely now element of that. But I then originally set out to be involved in product design. I literally bought grands got a lot to answer for actually my granddad bought me a book, which I think is probably one of the most influential books in my life, called deck piles presentation techniques. And he was part of I think he was part of Seymour Powell, who very famous UK based design agency. Yeah, and that that book just kind of blew me away. And it's how people kids essentially draw things that don't exist. And I find that amazing because as a kid at school, you are essentially kind of drawing stuff that does exist. And you're kind of measured on your ability and how you can visualize something that's in front of you, or some of these facial wooden flat model or a bowl of fruit, you know, that traditional stuff? And that really kind of tacked a lot of boxes, like how did how did these people come up with these ideas? And what is it that is there? And how did they generate these fantastic drawings and visuals. So that that had a big, big part to play. And then that can move me more into sculpture. And I remember listening to a sculptor talking about their work. And it just seems just fantastic. No, you're making things that are these huge volumes and scales. And it seems like there was no boundaries to what what they could do, I'd love to know the the sculptor was really for me just cannot remember. And then an art teacher managed to get me into life drawing classes at a local art school, which is a real baptism of fire, you know, he's gonna suddenly realize what's involved in that discipline. So there was a lot of things going on that were probably more on the I suppose in the earlier years, more of a kind of fine art calling. And then I went to art school and did a general general first year. And as that timer, I kind of moved away I moved more into as far as what we know be known as 3d design. And so I started by really working on working in jewelry and ceramics, and through that process, I quickly realized that I had I don't want to be drawn to the to the jewelry industry far from I've learned a huge amount from being involved in a couple of years of that discipline and manipulating materials and exploring things, actually having the confidence to do something which previously didn't exist. And I find quite quickly that maybe, in my experience 10% was designing and 90% was making. And that's great, you know, if you're really driven by the making, but I then find myself going back to that book. And I didn't realize that there was this other industry and product design, that was maybe more about the designing, and other people were involved in the making. And I was talking about this actually, with a good friend. And we're just talking about our, our policy journeys that we've been on, I can have some might not buy files, the files? Well, I'm thinking the needle files are used to use and we're going to do, and the files now our STL files, you know, they're their digital files, and obviously, are not going to create a whole range of conversation. And I suppose, you know, the, the discipline of product design is so diverse these days. Does the title need to be changed are those disciplines title need to be changed? This is such a huge, huge sector. And I think that's an often that, undoubtedly, continues to inspire and attract me too. It's just the various areas that you can move in and out of brush, you've got this kind of core skills or those core appreciations. I think that stones are in good stead in terms of how you how you can move from one area to another. So yeah, there's maybe quite a lot there. Roy, Bess also talks about, you know, the early days of books, etc. But yeah, for me, I think there's definitely something which is about externalizing your ideas, I think that's a, that's a lovely thing to be able to do, and especially if other people benefit from them. And we're very much as a, as a department, you know, I kind of stand by what, what the department is, which is about applying technology to improve the quality of life. And I think, as a as a discipline, you know, product designers is incredibly lucky that work designers are incredibly lucky, I should say that they have that opportunity. But with that comes a huge responsibility. Yes. Yeah, that was sort of taught me to, undoubtedly,
Roy Sharples:yeah, lighting the way into the future, by taking what is not, and making what can be by providing meaning into the humdrum and breaking through conventional values, tastes and perceptions, turning your daydreams, or your imagination into art, in the context of your creative process, Craig, how do you make the invisible visible? By dreaming up ideas, turning those ideas into concepts, and then implementing those concepts into actualization?
Craig Whittet:as a as a great question, Roy. And maybe that's a title for a book that you've got a near future? Yeah, I think the, the fundamental, or the starting block, really, for me as always been sketching. And that sketch might be driven by an insight, maybe something that I've seen, or even some cases, something I've, that I've heard, but the process for me is very much about that ability just to make a mark. And sometimes that mark might not result in something available, or tailor made, or value. And other times it goes quite a distance. But yeah, for me that the initial point is undoubtedly, that, that mark making exercise, I think that's something which I try and, you know, install and in the students, you know, as I've seen earlier on, you know, about, you know, the ability in terms of, I'm always really kind of jealous of, of people that have this ability to capture something in terms of a landscape or a portrait or a drawing of some description. I love looking at these, these drawings that people do, like, artists on tour, even in cities is kind of caption everyday life. I just love to be able to do that. But first, I don't have the skills. But I think a design or design engineer that has the skills to externalize things that don't exist, I would say that's actually possibly more difficult. Because you've got to be able to represent something maybe that nobody's ever seen before. In a lot of cases, you got to get people to buy into that idea. So that that initial sketch that that confidence that put a mark on a piece of paper, or whatever it happens to be for, you know, it doesn't necessarily pen and paper these days or people sketch me an iPod have, what are their sketch whatever it happens to be, you know, there's so many different ways I mean to do that. So yeah, that's for your creative spark starts for me is, you know, making a mark was sitting there, you know, what is it that inspires that mark? And is a tough one? Yeah, I, I struggled to kind of put my finger on exactly what it is because it is very varied. And I want not to continue. I think design as a discipline would be pretty dull. If, if we all had that spark from the same place. You know, the last thing you want is a Gerber clones, especially in this day and age. We want to celebrate diversity and all models. So yeah, for me, it definitely making the mark,
Roy Sharples:that the creative process can seem quite magical in terms of you know, where ideas can come from? Do they gravitate towards you? Do they follow the sky? Or is it something internal that you just manifest? Or is all of those in other points create around the importance of individuality and diversity and self expression? I think those are key in terms of how do you find real creativity. And that's by doing it yourself, you reject the convention, you continuously analyze your question, you challenge the status quo in everyday life, or how things get done, or how things are made. And then you lead by providing an alternative and then bring it to life. By provoking action that changes means and people of action, do things that inspire the rest of us to follow suit by defining our self discovery process. So to experiment, try and accept that you can feel and discover the unorthodox and amorphous. And people who achieve greatness do not fit a formula or follow a structure, they break the mold by making the path to achieve by making their own path to achieve mastery. And it's really refreshing to hear that within how you're educating the next generation of product designers. And engineers is the importance around you know, being a misfit, being a maverick, being an outsider, and really fostering true individuality and the the importance of being an outsider, and defining yourself and to believing in yourself. And then using that as a differentiator to seek true originality and creativity. On the topic of technology, do you see that as an inhibitor that limits creativity, rather than, you know, having all these kind of software packages that if you're using that as a vessel to channel many creative people's expressions and ideas is that a higher probability of many of those transitioning into similar outcomes? versus C, to your point at the very beginning around how you got into art and design at the beginning was, it was sketching from your imagination. So having that blank sheet of paper, where you can just create from the imagination with no frontiers, I think
Craig Whittet:maybe a few years ago, Roy probably would have said that, if you're relying on technology, yeah, that that was a that was a difficult one. Yeah, there's, there's companies out there, you've got Autodesk who Yeah, very much about democratizing technology. And you can get access to industry leading industry standard tools for free. all age groups, really. And you know, if your company's done and over a certain amount, okay, if you've got a subscription or a license that you're having to pay, but I think that is something that's really opening up channels for people to start exploring. Yeah, and, you know, the fact that I no longer in the days of a student asking us, what kind of computer should I buy? Should it be, should be windows Bay should be mark. Yeah. And they're kind of going because a lot of like, software nowadays, so much of it that's on the cloud doesn't actually rely on an operating system of preference. And again, if you're relying on the servers to deal with the computational requirements of rendering or animation, etc, you don't have to spend a huge amount of money on on that piece of hardware, which, okay, it's still a cost and not everybody has access to that financial means. But it does mean that the costs are being reduced all the time. And there was a point I remember when can early days when I was doing stuff, and we're academia, we're running a digital product company. And the software is always more expensive than the hardware. Yeah. And actually, you know, and then things start to change. And then you know, we have superduper graphics cards. And constantly upgrade your your computer and your hardware and suddenly realize, Oh, this has become a lot more expensive in the software. And now you know, it's a completely different different landscape I think. Yeah, and you know, I don't I don't recommend this you know, but he can run you can run software on your phone if you want nowadays, you can do a lot of stuff obviously less than one year our podcast recently where it's all about using phones as ways and means of making making movies or yeah for making a big investment, you know, trying out things on stuff that is accessible. And that's something that I'm definitely finding more and more of, within what we see in studio used to be the case that in studio the the final years were those that had the the laptops or the equipment in terms of computer or computer equipment, and remedies. It's you know, students coming in at first year are turning out with with laptops and talking to somebody other day that's 3d printing at home is one of many that are especially at this point where access to resources very different for for a normal is. So yeah, there's, there's undoubtedly, things there that are helping, yeah, generation of ideas.
Roy Sharples:The digital revolution has democratized technology, and accelerated the pace of change. It's a world that is increasingly technology mediated. And it's changed how we live, learn work, and how we get things done. And it's blurred the boundaries between physical and virtual life. You know, products are constantly being connected to the real world experiences and virtual environments, society is becoming more augmented by interactive digital content and information. Take the music industry, for example. You know, that's been heavily disrupted. To the point now where the entire catalog of music is available instantly. our fingertips we have access to the entire library of movies made since the beginning of cinema, and can watch them and play games online and interact in real time despite geographic differences. And then think obviously, things like social media has had an omnipresent impact on people Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, YouTube, LinkedIn, have become the fabric of our everyday lives and people sharing stories about their everyday experiences and building the personal brand around their passions, beliefs, and activities. Research shows that since 2000, something like 52% of the Fortune 500 companies have either gone bankrupt, been acquired, or cease to exist, due to them being disrupted by new market entrants, or the or the likes. While many factors contributed to these organizations rise and fall, the collision of the physical and digital worlds have been a fatal catalyst of this change in society, and commerce, enterprises, and individuals. Absolutely no one is immune. The key though, is the intelligent use of creative technology to unlock human ingenuity for the greater good by pushing society forward ethically and responsibly. And humans and technology working together to problem solve and to transform the world for the better in an age of creativity. However, that said, as an ardent record collector, it was a key magical experience for me to go to Virgin Records or one off records, or whatever the independent record store was, on a Saturday to go in there and to devour myself within vinyl, and reading through the inlay cards. You know, who are the artists involved? What the lyrics were was it recorded? Who were the producers? Who were the musicians, that was an incredibly obsessive experience and highly romantic, you know, this the smell, the other vein, or the beauty of the record sleeve, that might have been superseded by other things that have replaced that but it just feels like that the people when they're younger, get sushi, it's much quicker these days, and other things rather than having like a really good physical kind of product that can be treasured. And that becomes a real kind of asset.
Craig Whittet:The other point about the records, you know, the kind of, I suppose, maybe we were of a similar generation, were saving your pennies and going to shop to buy the seven inch or 12 inch. Is that something that you weren't up to? Wasn't it then once you had the cash, maybe for the album? Yeah. And that relationship with the physicality of The of the music was for me. So it's still important. And I don't know about yourself, but your playback was on one of my dad's record player, and he was very, very, very, very strict about that. It's like, if you had CCTV cameras, What vailable? He probably would have.
Unknown:Exactly.
Craig Whittet:Yeah, no, that's definitely isn't it? And I suppose in some ways, you, you look at, you know, we've talked about kids a minute ago, and are our children and I look at how my kids take photographs. And, you know, it's just, it's immediate, you know, and it's wonderful. You know, it's great that that that access to technology is there. And I keep reminding myself that not everybody has the access. When you think back to the, there's always a value associated with taking a photograph. Yeah, I was younger, because about 35 mil, or one time, spool cost money. And then somebody had to pay to get it developed. Exactly. And if and if you're one frame, or 35, or 34, or 24, were brought to be wasn't right, it was you can feel a little bit guilty. Is that a waste of money? That's right. But I suppose that was part of it, wasn't it as part of the learning process? Because you thought, well, I wouldn't do that again. You know, I'll try and learn from that. Yeah. And I say, I think that ability to experiment with technology is really opened up an avenue for people nowadays that maybe previously wasn't there because of the costs associated all the time.
Unknown:Yeah.
Roy Sharples:I think things like, you know, speeding things up getting things done quicker, and then being able to hit like a global mass market really quickly. It's an It's incredible, and what technologies enable, but there's things where, you know, even going back, maybe 1015 years ago, Craig, when, if I'd asked you what your phone number was, and he told me, you probably remember it, probably first or second attempt, right? There's no chance, no chance that I'd be able to remember it now. Because I think our means our brains have became programmed to a point where we just don't have to anymore, you know, and you can translate that if you can transcend that to so many other scenarios unite between from what it was before to, to what it is now. So I you know, it's making the brain and the humans, lazier and more habitual. And I've definitely got questions about that. But what are you going to use and technology in a way that can really propel your imagination, and the green water you use was around the democratization of Ghana, what that does to people in society and so forth? as an option? It's a great thing, what do you think the critical skills are to be a product designer,
Craig Whittet:or been talking quite a bit about technology, and obviously, it has a place undoubtedly, but I think it's also about the relevance of the tools that you use at points. So sometimes, you know, the center front of a CAD package, printing off something in some pod, or whatever it happens to be in your rapid prototype or isn't the right way, you know, sometimes just using a bit of carbs of cardboard, and a glue gun can get you there a lot quicker. So I think that one of the key skills for me is really the relevance of the tools that we use. But you know, the tools or let's say, the vehicles, and of how you get that, that message across, you've listened to various keynotes have been made over the years, and it's been kind of some seminal ones. And I think a lot of these, these keynotes or those presentations, very much touch upon, you know, things like curiosity, you know, so, you know, questioning certain things, or why is it done that way doesn't have to be done that way. That's a big driver, for me, undoubtedly, other aspects about just, you know, the ability to kind of be able to sit back and look, and listen, obviously, you know, just, you know, the insights that come from that level of just observing things, you know, designers are generally nosy people, which is, which is fine, are kind of welcome. And how long will that continue? And so, definitely something about that. Somebody has an ability to look at something and sealing or why why is that done that way? Or, could we approach this in a slightly different way? Are they are they or are they recognize are they they see something that that maybe nobody else has actually witnessed or thought about? And then all of a sudden, that kind of creates a different opportunity? So there's all these things entirely, I think, our skills, you know, the ability to draw. We've talked about that a little bit earlier. Obviously, there's so many tools out there nowadays. You can, you can generate a really rubbish sketch but it can get a message across and the thought messages Except to them kind of goes the destiny is great, you know, I kind of challenged some some things they are now in, a lot of people say, but I can't draw, I don't care if you can draw, you know, we'll we'll show you how externalize ideas and for you know what you've got people sitting taking note of what you're actually doing. So I think that sometimes it's maybe about us challenging what might have been perceived as being core skills many, many years ago. Again, not just because technologies and proven things, but I think as, as consumers, we're maybe changing our attitudes to certain aspects of, of product as well. And I think no ROI, you know, that the thing that I'm finding more and more, and as long overdue, is the responsibility of a of a design engineer, or a product designer, or anybody really, you know, if you a lot of there's a lot of talk about sustainability, and understandably, but I, I personally think that if you, if you approach things in a responsible manner, sustainability will happen, which is a byproduct of our but sustainable sustainability or happiness as having that kind of philosophy, which is by being a responsible design engineer. So I think that's a key skill. And if you look at the younger generation, you know, the awareness that they have, of the environment of the impact that other generations have made on the environment, essentially, the level of, of the challenges to deal with in the future years, if not no, are huge. I'd like to think that there's great opportunities from that as well. But that is really becoming a big one for me, key skill is that responsibility, you know, we've got graduates, the products and engineering as a, as a successful program, and it's a it's a real privilege to be part of it. And when you look at what our graduates are, and what they do, and, and the rules that they have, it's phenomenal. And as inspirational when you see the journeys, that they go on in the impact that the that they have, hopefully in a positive sense. But I know there's there's graduates out there that are making decisions, or marks that will become a decision, which is going to be replicated, you know, hundreds of millions of times, that's a big decision, you know, and think about the impact of that Marc's gonna make, it's not going to go away, okay, things can be broken down, recycled, etc. But there's a lot of embodied energy in bringing these products to market. So yeah, they there's a few things there. But definitely, you know, making making people more aware, if they're not, of the responsibilities of, of product, I think is a is a key skill. Very much, no, maybe more than the previous years,
Roy Sharples:your point around the how aware, the younger generation are around all of the the environmental issues. And so whenever I engage with millennials around can a business or design or creativity, nine times out of 10, the conversation is usually infused through those issues around social, cultural, political, economical, environmental, and they're deeply and sincerely concerned about it. And I find this well, they're making decisions based on the products services that they're going to buy, the companies that they want to be associated with or work for, based on those decisions solely,
Craig Whittet:I suppose but I look at open days, or we run open days, or we used to whatever open days of we have been virtual, which has been a quite a rewarding experience actually, is very different to know that that face to face open deal that you you'd normally have. Yeah, and I would say a lot of the conversations that we have, understandably, are from school pupils, asking about futures and we're working variable will be in five years time, and what will we be doing? Or where could it be? Except Yeah, you know that the avenues that are available now are so wide? Yeah. And I think that's part of the challenge, isn't that you when you look at the age group, where you're having to make a decision that could define the next four or five years of your life? Yeah, it's a tough call, certainly don't envy as school pupils at the later stages of their, of their learning, having to make that decision. I hope we I hope we make the right decision. And I think that's maybe my responsibilities and that of the team that I work with, is that if they have made that decision, we've got to do everything that we can to make that journey and that experiences as as rewarding and hopefully as memorable. Yeah, and again, you know, it's not, I don't think it's just about education as such, in terms of the course that you're studying, I find myself speaking more to people about the place where you're going to be you're going to You're gonna invest four or five years of your life in a city, or maybe not unnecessarily setting, we've got a campus up in the highlands, which is a very different environment to what we have in Glasgow. But you know, you think about that. So what what's that city going to offer you? And what can you offer that city? And that's a big thing. Now, you know, that people are, I think I'm making more of a more of a decision about what is it that that P stands for, and, and again, you know, the opportunities are going to come from it. One thing that is still very relevant, important to this D ROI with with the program in terms of how we move forward, is think about where we've started, our first graduates graduated in 1991, only four students at the time. And now we have an average of 35 to 40 in a year group. So it's been quite substantial growth. But the department will be what it is and where it is. If it wasn't for Diggle Cameron, who was the former director of School of Art, and one of the founders of products and engineering, and Diggle saw an opportunity where the combination of design and engineering been integrated into an educational experience. And thankfully, he, he had that vision, create a vision, obviously, and had the had the support and people to help to bring it to what it is today. I think I'm the third head of department, an SGA of PDE. And I feel very privileged to have a position or I would say in four cases, you're kind of a custodian of the course. And one of the things that I always kind of remind myself, most jobs are always challenges, but there's also the wards, but the one thing is I always find myself looking up is very lucky that I'm surrounded by people that want to be there. And that's a key driver for me, you know, again, it comes back to that passion that people have for the subject. And you know, long may that continued. And, yeah, on behalf of the PD community, maybe some of them are listening to this. But I think what they do and what they continue to do, is just testament to what the what the program stands for,
Roy Sharples:based on the lessons learned to date, in terms of the pitfalls to avoid and the keys to success. What would you say to a younger Creek
Craig Whittet:put up? Does a family broadcast? I suppose. haven't kept kids you kind of think about doing you know, give, give Sage sound advice when you can? I suppose in some ways, it is not necessarily thinking about what you want to be doing or how you going to necessarily get there. I think it's a for me, it's really about says what what are the experiences? You know, if I could look back at certain things and say, Well, maybe if I decided to do that with with the experience have been different? And and if it was, what would that have resulted in? You know, it's that kind of time machine question, isn't it? You know, you stand on something, and what impact does that have? But I really like there's a, there's a chap called Mark Adams, who's the owner of v2, calm karate makes very, very nice furniture, originally designed by Dieter Rams. And Mark provides a fantastic lecture to the students. And one of the things that that he talks about, and comes across very clear in his in his lecture, it's almost evangelical, the way it comes across is the value of trust. And I think that's a big ask a big a big question, you know, is half, half trust in your decisions, you know, because if you believe in something and you're passionate about, I would like to think that it's going to work out. And so maybe it's more about, you know, creating music teen having more confidence and trust and decisions that you need. And you know, how that can be be, maybe even partner to others in terms of other other people of age. And I think there's, there's a thing about confidence and trust, but with being a bit of advice, I would probably listen to for myself. And I think that is maybe a line to certain decisions that that you've made or you would have liked to have made not necessarily in kind of the projects that you've worked on or I've worked on The places that you've been in things, things that you've done. But yeah, if if you believe in something, you've got to trust in yourself to do something with that. I think good things will also come from Tilton forward, Craig,
Roy Sharples:what's your vision for the future of product design in education. And so considering the forces is driving change within industry, social culture, economics, politics and technology.
Craig Whittet:I think at the moment, Roy, you know, if you look at what's going on in the planet, every day is a new day is just the things that we're currently dealing with in terms of COVID. And the political landscape that we're dealing with. The social aspects are obviously being part and parcel of the politics as well, and the economy that comes from it, the diversity, the quality aspects, if we are real education sets, and that I think is a very powerful place, I would very much hope that education still has an provides a platform for, for students to discuss the beat test explore, I would hate to see that change, and in any form, any subject for that matter. So that's something that in terms of what I want to see in the future is that platform is, is protected, and if at all possible isn't, is enhanced, in terms of providing a safe place for, you know, nsec, if you haven't, you know what I mean, by that, the use of that word, you know, a place where students do have an ability to try things to do things, you know, to test stuff in a way that maybe they couldn't, potentially will see, for example, and industry. And I think at points, it's not just about getting the grade, you know, it's maybe by trying things in a wave, which you might, you might feel, and if you do also be providing flexibility in education, to, to lotions to do that, I think is very important. When we talk about the three P's with our students. The first P is product SOC, report, what is the item? What is the device was? What is it? Do you need it ofis was an exception, the second PS process, and that's really the the tools and methods that you'll apply to develop that idea. And then the third P is presentation in us, essentially speaks for itself, and how do you get that message across? There's lots of other pieces that we can add to it, you know, the political PM, my thought was a good friend recently, and he was talking about the legal aspects of products. And when you look at that as, as a as a discipline, you know, in terms of it was intellectual property, whether it's the contractual agreement when you buy something, or when a contractual agreement of working with a supplier or another manufacturer, and you'll be working with under license, etc. And so maybe the, the business aspect, cause to be entrepreneurial aspect, in some cases, you know, another area that we are actively involved in, you know, we're looking at different channels to market, whether it's crowd sourcing, and we've got students that have developed things in the undergraduate years, there are no out there sailing, you know, which imagine 10 years ago, you can do not involve if, if you did, it would have been a considerably greater challenge what it is at the moment. So I think the opportunities that we have are an incredible on title, incredible, but again, I'll come back to that word responsibility. There's a huge, huge thing there. But in terms of education, you know, we we have a global community of students within product and engineering. I think that's appropriate, because products global, yeah. Therefore, we, we, we welcome the kind of cultural diversity that that that brings. We're seeing projects every year that are that are sponsored by industry or supported by industry. And hopefully that that continues. We're also seeing a situation where, or, in a lot of cases the, the doom and gloom that unfortunately we hear in the news, taking precedent over a lot of other things. We are aware of some great stories as well. You know, we've been in contact on a regular basis with companies that are looking to employ our graduates are looking for interns, and because their business is expanding Which is also very welcome. And, you know, that's something which maybe isn't necessarily been broadcast or promoted in a lot of ways. as a, as a program, you know, we're always looking at what's coming down, what's coming down the pipe, so to speak. And, you know, trying not only to be prepared for that, but also at points challenging it, and equally, maybe influencing it. So you know, you've you've not only got control over something, but you've got an ability to, to work or to that to, to make the most of our opportunity, that I suppose the other other thing for us in terms of the the technology, again, are going coming back to the discussion earlier. That's, yeah, it's just opening up a completely different way of working out things. And I think, for the past few months, the online tools that we use, are essentially life skills for for our students, because I would imagine that for the foreseeable boss hire, a lot of us are going to communicate. So the technologies that we've essentially been experimenting with over the past few months, are essentially becoming, you know, fundamental skills that you have to have. And none of us were kind of prepared for that. But thankfully, we had a, we had an opportunity to test and experiment with a variety of tools. And to make sure that when we started to deliver our content in a digital way we were, we were ready for it, we we still maintain an element of that, let's see if studio, our studios are still open, which is fantastic. It was a great decision that was made by the Glasgow School of Art to get the students back into the studio. We're, we're not necessarily allowed to have face to face teaching for obvious reasons. But when we can have students in the studio working on projects and staff in another location, supplying them with advice or help the University of Glasgow, which is a partner, institution, all their all their learning is currently online, because it's a it's a different approach is more of a lab and lecture type arrangement, or the university was a School of Art is more of a studio arrangement. And the social distancing rules, just make lectures, almost impossible, you know, you're maybe looking at 20% of what your total capacity would be. So there's just no way you can get everybody in. So I can understand the reasons for that being done in a in a digital way. So there's things happening there as well, you know, and how we hire respond to that. Anecdotally, there are going to be key drivers as we move forward. Hopefully, we see some medical advancements that enable us to get back in back to what was the previous way of working, but I don't know when it's going to happen. You know, I'd love to have an answer for that one. But unfortunately, I don't think many of us do at the moment. So yeah, a combination of, of things you enjoy, and hopefully, hopefully that's given you an answer to a question. Quite a quite a lot to it. But as is a good one to ask.
Roy Sharples:That's fantastic. Craig, thank you so much for this. I've really enjoyed listening to you and got some really great insights out of that. That's right, that's been there. It's been really enjoyable for more inspirational conversations with creative industry personalities on entrepreneurship, pop culture, art, music, film and fashion. Please go to unknown origins.com