Dave Cronen on Future of Music

David Bowie predicted that music itself is going to become like "running water or electricity," which in many cases appears to be ringing true with the music industry becoming increasingly technology-mediated, with tech titans Apple, Amazon, Google, and Spotify are providing more convenient, accessible, and affordable solutions for consumers to download and stream on-demand, making it possible to listen to music wherever and whenever we want. 

Artist Manager and owner of Trust Management, Dave Cronen, provides a perspective on the music industry and the future opportunities for artists to innovate and make a living from their art.

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Transcript

Roy Sharples: 0:05

Hello, I'm Roy Sharples, and welcome to the unknown origins podcast. Why are you listening to this podcast? Are you an industry expert looking for insights growing your career? Or are you a dear friend, helping sponsor your old pal on? I created the unknown origins podcast to have the most inspiring conversations with creative industry personalities and experts about entrepreneurship, pop culture, art, music, film, and fashion. Music is the language of the world that unites and brings people together, regardless of time and space. And it can change the world. It can change a mood, shift an atmosphere, and encourage a different behavior has the power to emotionally spiritually, morally and culturally influence our society. David Bowie predicted in 2002 that music itself is going to become like running water, or electricity, which in many cases appears to be ringing true. With the music industry becoming increasingly technology mediated with tech Titans like Apple, Google, Amazon, and of course, Spotify of the house, controlling the price and and the distribution platforms and bundling low cost in demand options into one. technology innovation has helped democratize the music making process by how music gets made and experienced by consumers. While Apple, Amazon and Spotify have provided more convenient, accessible, and affordable solutions for consumers to download or stream on demand rather than by records, making it possible to listen to music, whatever and whenever we want. However, it has significantly impacted the artists ability to generate sustainable income, leaving live performances as one example to be the main income stream, which is only feasible for established artists with a large following. I'm joined today by artists manager and owner of trust management Dave Cronin, to discuss the future of the music industry. diva spent four decades as an artist manager singing around the corner to help shape artists careers, plan album projects, orchestrate record releases and tours, formulate marketing and merchandising strategies and establishing expedite long term career goals. From virgin turf trade, play it against some and grand royal records, then trust management to gating the careers of hundreds of revered artists who have influenced popular culture, such as the Beastie Boys, Johnny Marr, and also ash we are scientists dexys and boxer God working with artists who have received Ivor Novello Awards, Oscar nominations, and enemy godlike genius awards and also mentoring the next generation of artists, producers and entrepreneurs at the Academy of contemporary music. Hello, and welcome, Dave, is this the end of the music industry? As we know, it

Dave Cronen: 3:10

is a great question. It's a great explanation to make. No I you know, we've always said the collective way that you know, it's ever evolving. And if you look at it, it's it's going through a really sort of fast phase, at the moment, having to adapt, you know, we've we've always we're always embracing technology within this industry in many of the other creative industries, but also the COVID situation has barriers up but also created a lot of new opportunities where forward thinking people have applied their vision and you know, and and can create monetization from, you know, from new income streams or existing music streams that maybe weren't sort of within reach of them a couple of years ago, really?

Roy Sharples: 4:06

How do artists typically make money from music today?

Dave Cronen: 4:10

It's a split a split answer. If I speak to any manager, I will speak to a lot of managers at the moment. A lot of them have lost the majority of their income because they manage bands who make money from playing live and the associated income streams from life whether it's prs income or merge sales, branding for their touring, whatever. So they've had that avenue sort of cut off temporarily, but enough, long enough to make an effect really. So there's that but like did. We I've used in my lectures because in my in my other world, I'm electric ICM, we found this not paper, but this this report that said there are 45 music income streams, and there's probably two or three more now. 4748. Now and, and that's how artists make money from music and whether it's artists directly or artists through their manager or artists with a label for their booking agent or their promoter. But there's, there's a lot of different ways of doing it. And I think that any, any artist, whether they're self managing self releasing, or an artist with a structure and a team around them, they need to sit down and look at these income streams and work out the ones that are applicable to them. And the ones that they currently exploit, how do they get more out of it? And there's some that they currently don't exploit and how do they introduce that to their, their day to day, week to week activities? Really, I think there's there's a lot of opportunities to do it. But there's an element of trial and error there. But I think there's there's plenty out there at the moment. That's encouraging to hear

Roy Sharples: 6:12

what artists would you point towards as being the Pathfinders in the new world of capitalizing on these new income streams, whilst at the same time remaining creative and true to their art.

Dave Cronen: 6:28

To be honest, I think it would be a lot of artists who aren't really on my radar. You know, there's, my, my research is normally based on music that I love, or artists that I love. And I, you know, I'll bring up one example in a minute, which I've, you know, there's been a, for me a flawless campaign, which has been going on over the past week. But I think there's a lot of young bands, artists coming through who are working within a certain specific music genre who are exploiting these, these music streams, and capitalizing on, on the opportunities that are there, but while as you say, remaining quite creative at the same time, in their own significant way, you know, whether they're using YouTube as a channel, or you know, or Twitch, you know, doing direct to consumer sales, having a really good Spotify playlist or looking at the other platforms, you know, there's so many ways they're doing it and being original. And you know, the other people you know, the other thing that you have to think about, as well as some people don't really care whether these people are original, or how creative they are at the moment, because if they like if they like a song, whatever music genre it is, they're going to be open to it. So it's, you know, it's hard for me to say is, you know, as, as old as I am, I'm me, and my music taste is more on, you know, indie alternative rock and, you know, I listened to a lot of stuff that I grew up listening to, in my lifetime and you know, I'm listening to a lot of new music, but it's within a certain specific music genre, really. So I can only say this from a personal perspective rather than an industry one. But I think the one for me and due to I'm going to send them an email in a bit actually it's it's the Sleaford mods campaign where, for me, you know, Sleaford mods are they, they probably have appeal to people more my age, male and female, indie leaning a little bit towards the left on their politics and their social outlook on life. But, you know, Sleaford monster abandoned have been around for years, and they've always been doing stuff releases, you know, I, I've managed to come across them six or seven years ago, there was a piece in The Guardian by john Harris, who said, You've got to listen to this band. And you know, I respect value what John's saying, you know, what, all the album and fell in love with it and started following them around and they had this unique thing where they signed to Rough Trade a couple of years ago, but Rough Trade would give them creative freedom to do self releases as well, and they could dip in and dip out of the structure. But the last two releases the last album, being a compilation came out, you know, in the middle of last year 2020. And then but this last week, the you know, the spareribs album coming out, which for me, musically, has been their, their their best album, since you know that the first album I bought, you know, I think they're sort of they're back musically, but what I would say that they've done right, right from the start, they've used the process, really Well, where they announced the track. More committee which had a collaborator on there called Billy no mates Billy no mates is on to invade a record for, again, one of the great indie labels run by Geoff Barrow from from bacon, and was obviously important, so two years ago. So that's cool. You know, Billy's been sort of coming through and there's, you know, and the thing that inspired her was Sleaford mods because they write music on a, you know, Andrew writes a backing track, you know, on stage, however big the stage and they've played Wembley Stadium support in Stone Roses, it's Andrew pressing star on the backing track on a laptop and just doing nothing and dancing and swaying about while while Jason spits vehemently into her, his microphone and, and that's it and, you know, the production values, you know, they talk, you know, they turned up for that show at Wembley in, in, in a state car because that's all they need. And, and it's brilliant. My, my initial thought was, when I when I first saw that, you know, I saw them at a Squyres in Bedford, and there was about 40 or 50 people in there, and I loved it. But my friend, she was the agent at the time, and there's a ceiling here isn't there? And she went now I don't think there is and then they started moving into the electric Ballroom in, in, in Camden, and they did the Hammersmith, Hammersmith Apollo. And it's like, well, they've done it. And now they've just launched an academy tour, and there is no ceiling because people get into it. So I think what they've done from that announcement with Billy, and they made a great video with Ben Wheatley, one of the US chat shows, I can't remember which one it was, but they picked up on it on the week of release. So they made a bit of an impact in the states as well. And then since then, they've just been building it. The album has been called spare ribs. You know, they're looking at the social aspects of it, they're looking at sort of gender sort of diversity in the gender gap. And making all these sort of social comments with amazing beats in the background. You know, Jason, for me is more of a poet rather than a rock star, you know, in the same way that I look at john Cooper Clarke has been, you know, a poet and and they've just got it right the artwork the the physical formats, the bundles, the match, the social media, they're all over Twitter. And they do it great. And you know, they have a band account, they have a Jason account, and Andrews got his own account. They have had little things like baking Daddy, where Jason's cooking muffins in the kitchen and being you know, there's a lot of you know, a double entendres in there and stuff like that, and it's just entertaining and, and, but, you know, they, the album came out last Friday, the presets are really good. They've got all the indie stores to support it. They've been given them test pressings to give away to their sort of loyal fan bases and the indie stores. The album has been cheap, like is has been priced effectively out, you know, I ordered it online for 15 pounds which is great for a piece of vinyl. And you know, they've just done it right. And I think the midweek it came in at two I don't know where it's ended up today. I've been stuck in meetings all day, sometimes in the final chart position. But if there's a band within my music genre have done it right then I would say it's Sleaford mods because they've, they've maximized it without being too crass or too harsh or, you know, you've everyone feels part of it. And it's when Dave's got to number one last year, like everyone was cheering for them, because, you know, they'd been on hiatus for 10 years and they came back and they released a great album and it got to number one, and I think it's going to be the same move with Sleaford mods where it's down to effectively the band's the manager, you know, Jason's Jason's wife. You know, the collaborators are Billy no mates and Amy from Amman, sniffers and rough traders a label we've given them the sort of the creative freedom to do this campaign which, for me, the highlight was they did this thing called dumb Sleaford mob TV on YouTube on Saturday, eight o'clock, and you know, as a pre recorded show, and Paul Stokes, the esteemed journalists, interviewed them and interviewed some of the collaborators and things like that and And just say maximize the campaign at the end of the day, I thought they did an amazing job. And it's something that as a manager, I'll be nicking some of the ideas from and trying to incorporate with my artists, but as a lecturer, as a marketing and social media campaign. You know, we take elements of that and discuss it with our students. So, as a case study, it's probably long winded case study. But I think that the way that they've monetized that, and the fact that in November, they're going to be playing 2000 3000 5000 capacity venues for for two piece bands that hang out at all.

Roy Sharples: 15:38

Yeah, that's great. And it sounded great to hear you mentioned, Rough Trade there as well. And it still sounds like they've retained their whole independently minded ethos, and being a cooperative and community centric model where they really exist to empower the the artist and take an artist led philosophy, which is, you know, very similar to what Apple Records did not Apple, the tech company, but the Beatles, yes, yes, Stiff Records that we've spoken about before. And I know, they're very deep and close to your heart, mute and factory, and so forth. And that is are still within the industry. Dave? Is there still a strong, independent ecosystem? And is that still, you still see a future for that? And also with the majors? Are they are they still declining? Or are they still What are they these days? In comparison?

Dave Cronen: 16:35

It's, it's interesting you say that, Roy, because there's, we've had the common Select Committee this week, looking at the breakdown of streaming income and where it's going, and which is obviously a hot potato. And we've you know, I'm a member of the mmf the music managers forum. And, you know, we've been anticipating this, there's members of the exec team at the mmf are all over this, and Abella calendric, who's the one of the main people on the executor. Her background is politics and lobbying and, and, you know, and she's kept an eye on this. And we've had probably about 150 emails between us over the week, keeping an eye on an eye on the select committee and what it's doing. And I think that the one thing is apparent, I will get back to your point about the independence in a second, but for the majors, the majors, and it's quite easy to find the links for this, you know, we came on and they were so blahs a and sort of noxious, and they didn't really care. And they just want to keep their market share. You know, there's there's artists who signed to EMI, you know, I can think of a band that I worked with who signed to EMI in 1978. And they get an 18% royalty. And they get 25% package packaging deductions on a stream. Because they signed their contracts in 78, which didn't predict streaming. You know, there's obviously the argument Where is a stream, a sale or a license? If it's a sale, then you'll get that banding question. We get 18% royalty less 25% tax deductions. However, if it's the license, which it really is, you're licensing your music, to Spotify, to Apple to Deezer, to Amazon to play, then there is a chance that you could get 50% of the income on AI, there's a test case going on in South America at the moment, and I don't know where they are with that. But the the majors are still there, they're making, you know, millions of dollars a day, literally, on the on the income from from streaming that artists, the artists aren't benefiting on it from from the way that they should be because they're tied to these contracts. So they're protected, you know, the majors are protected legally on it. So, you know, I do agree, you know, one of my best friends works at Spotify and Spotify needs to be under the microscope, but it's not just Spotify. You know, there's other music platforms there as well. But the majors as well, they just won't relent. You know, I can't think of any cases where they've gone back and just saying, we're only earning too much money on this, you need to have more of this because we know we're just sitting there and the money's just rolling in on the back catalogue. So and there was a piece of music business worldwide. This week, you know, the the sort of daily subscription that you get from them. And there's a again, a great music business journalist called Tim Timonium, who wrote a piece about the select committee The day after And he quoted saying, Is this the time? You know, to, you know, to gather our thoughts and let's kill the majors. Because it's you know, I know a lot of people in incensed on their attitude towards a fair split of income for the artist as much as they say we we blame Spotify. So there's that point and then coming back to the independence you know, again, you know, I mentioned Rough Trade and you mentioned Rough Trade Rough Trade is still the model where Jeff and Jeanette and the whole team I obviously work with Jeff in the 80s. And I'm lucky to be surrounded by a you know, discs for the Sundays in front I mean, and Carter, the unstoppable section machine behind me, and other stuff. I've got my Smithsonian nicked, unfortunately. But there's the what we achieved with the Sundays and carta was a real, I've said this before to your real two fingers to the majors, because we did a cheap budget, and we did it on passion and knowing where our audience was, and an excellent distribution, and rough traders still doing that now where they love their music. The artists get a fair deal, you know, I text Jeff Travis, the other day I played the Sunday's album said that this still sounds fresh as it did in 1990. And he said, Yeah, you know, it's, it's still an important record from rough driver going down the pan at the time, which we were. But the independent structure is probably more important than it's ever been because of because of technology. You can run a label from your house, you can be independent, you can do radio, plugging to an extent you can do online marketing, you can do a lot of things from from your desk, you can mix and master at your desk, so that you can get the, the the music to release quality. And independence would be it. And again, I still don't understand why. If I work with a band and a major came along, I'd have to have a bloody good argument from their side on why we'd signed to them. Because if they see the potential, obviously, they've got the structure in place to get it away. But if they see the potential, I as a manager, or as an entrepreneur, yeah, could probably find a similar team or a better team that's going to cost less money, where everyone makes more money from it. You know, the artist, the manager, the third party teams involved with it, rather than it all, you know, arguably 82% of the income going back to the label, which you know, which, which we talked about in the earlier contract. So the independence is so important, and, and we'll continue to do so and, and, you know, they they know, they know how to put the teams in place. They know how to work with independent record stores, they know how to sort of trade off goodwill as well, you know, look at band camp. And you've got band camp, Friday, once a month where they waive all fees and, and the money goes to the artists. There's a lot of goodwill out there at the moment. And a lot of that is pointed towards the independence, especially more so this week. I think it's been quite poignant. We can have, you know, the irony of America changing their democratic status. But, you know, I think it's been on a lesser scale, but you know, important for a lot of people I think it's been an important week for the music industry in the UK, because we know we know who the who the baddies are. I mean, hey, I hope something what's happened in America can snowballs back over? In Europe, especially the UK. And he and he, I mean, the reverse double

Roy Sharples: 24:03

Brexit nonsense, right? But that must be having an enormous impact on musicianship, especially the tootin the cross boundary issues and challenges it's gonna happen and taxes and all of that just it's just so unnecessarily complex and hard

Dave Cronen: 24:20

it is it just again, it's frustrating because when when we are allowed to play live again, we're being penalized by I'm not even going to say a government because I'm you know, I'm not a fan of this government. But there's a lot to blame there. Because you don't when you talk about the pecking order, you know, how fish was number one priority in the in the Brexit stall just before the the deal was signed? And God knows and, and again, even though it's a priority, you know, the fishing trade still got a battlefield out of it.

Unknown: 24:58

Yeah.

Dave Cronen: 24:59

You know, a lot of people who are in the fishing industry, I told you I go off paste, you know, voted for Brexit and you know, and they've got a real deal now. But, you know, for for simple things again, you know, knowing the mmf well enough, I know that they've been waving this flag going, what about visas? What about visas? What's going to happen? Any tour manager, production manager, artists manager knows that when we've been touring in Europe, for however long, it's a pain in the ass when we go to Switzerland, because you have to provide a colony and the economy is expensive, it's a pain in the ass. If you don't get the paperwork stamped, there's a chance that when you come back to the UK, you can get taxed on what you're bringing, bringing in from from you, you get taxed on your merge. And, and that situation has now manifested itself two times 26. Because we're not in the EU anymore. And a really good example of that is if the artists that I managed was the Gonzales if Wesley has a UK tour for the new record that's coming out this year. Easy, straightforward. We work with promoters, we work with the agent. But should we want to track tours in basic territories, France, Netherlands, Belgium, Germany, if we just wanted to go to those four territories, and we had five people in the band, and a tour manager, we've got six people. So you've got six people applying for visas to go into France, and then Belgium and then Netherlands and then Germany, possibly, we don't know the cost yet. But it's either going to be 100 pounds per lot, or 100 pound per person. So if you're going in there and playing small shows to 100 and 150 people to start getting building your profile over there. You're even before you step onto the territory, you've lost money, and I'm not even big much is going to overcome that. So we're we're really stuck, we really are stuck. And it seems to have been acknowledged more towards the end of this week than the beginning of the week. That is this is a sticking point. But again, I don't think there's any urgency from anyone outside of the music industry to look into it. And there's been the blame game between the UK blaming the EU and the EU, blaming the UK and I think we know who we believe on that. For sure. But yeah, you're right. It's a massive problem and it and it's and it's not right. Because, you know, I think these creative people have been punished enough over the past couple of months for you know, for this next hurdle that they've got to overcome once they're allowed out of their, their rooms and their their isolation.

Roy Sharples: 28:00

Dave, you started off in retail, working at Virgin Records and Portsmouth record stores like virgin Tower Records, and other local independent record stores. were once a mecca, a cultural Haven, in major cities and towns, where anyone who was anyone would congregate to learn the ideas of the day, and what was hip and cool, not just in music, but in film, literature, fashion and pop culture. Were the people that worked at those places, had an encyclopedia knowledge of music, to the last detail, and wore that badge on their sleeve, as if a symbol of religion and in fact, there were like musical monks and evangelists spreading and instilling the religion who were experts and music lovers. I know we spoke about this one before Dave, but it really was a time when people were judged on their musical tastes. Were your music collection was in a way like a private medical records. Going to my local independent record store each Saturday was a religious pilgrimage. As an ardent record collector, it was a magical experience to immerse myself in the romance and the vain luxury of the sight, touch and smell of the circular polyvinyl chloride discs physically represent an each audio waveform, groove cut of the original recording, categorically obsessing over the sleeves to discover who the artists involved were, what the lyrics were, what they meant, where the records were made, who produced them, who crafted the artwork. Every aspect of the record was a work of art. Discovering discovering them, was an obsessive and romantic experience. Fast forward a decade later, technology innovated. Combined with the economics taking over, and the likes of iTunes, apple, and Spotify. change the way that we purchase and consume music through digital streaming. And these services have made it possible to listen to music wherever and whenever we want. Traditional record companies fail to adopt to the digital revolution. The likes of Virgin and HMV completely missed the opportunity to become the musical experience store, in a way, like what the Apple Store did for its technology. HMV and virgin could have been the equivalent of that for the music industry. But they couldn't see the future coming and fail to adopt and avoid the Deadly Sins of complacency and greed. They fell asleep at the wheel got permanently drunk on their own Kool Aid, lost the plot on who they actually were got lazy and fat, and couldn't see the wood from the trees and all the beasts of prey and making ego based decisions. Like Kodak, who was so blinded by its dominance in the traditional photography market, that it completely missed the rise of digital technologies, and that photos would eventually be shared online one day, Kodak certainly had the talent, the money and the means to make that transition. However, the lack of foresight made them a victim of the aftershock of a disruptive change. Anyway, back to the point, Dave, do you think there's a future for a physical entity for consumers to experience music in a retail environment?

Dave Cronen: 31:28

Yeah, I do. I you know, we see examples of that. And, again, there's a lot of it down to Goodwill, but like going back to what you're saying, um, you know, I know that we've discussed this before, but me working for virgin in Portsmouth was I started when I was 17. And it's the greatest job I ever had, you know, and, you know, in my career, I've been fortunate enough to do some amazing things. But just being behind the counter and having, you know, God knows how many square feet of floor space we get, we probably had about 10 10,000 square feet of floor space. So we have all that vinyl out there that we could just pick and choose. And because we were the consumer of the coolest record shopping, of course, you know, we we because HMV we're on the high street and we are in the we're in the trikon Center, this brutalist building called the tricorne that Mr. Thomas a picture of it. Every time I see a picture of it, I still smell Paris because our nightclub was at the top of the trikon. And at the bottom of the tricorn river, amongst all this concrete was, was the virgin record store. But and we weren't you know, we were the indie store. You know, we were a huge indie store. At the end of the day, we had that indie ethic and HMV with the high street retail and when that was good, and we still laugh that, you know, we would refuse very much like high fidelity we would refuse to sell records, people, even though we had it in stock, because it wasn't cool enough for us to touch. So we'd send them to, to HMV across the road and they get Wait, down well. I have the first album I sold on the on the 15th of October 1984 was my first band, it was the Lionel Richie album, can't, can't slow down. I think it was cool. And, and I was really nervous. I was like breaking the shrink wrap taking the security card out the security tagout and I was shaking. And you know, it was probably 499 or something like that wrong, wrong it up, took the money, gave them the change, took off the receipt, stapled it to the bag, handed it over. And I've you know, I've done my first sale. That's great. And they went Whoa, you know, that's really good. And then, you know, a couple of weeks later said,

Unknown: 34:08

you know, you

Dave Cronen: 34:09

could have refused that sale. What do you mean? Well, you know, if you don't think it's credible enough, then you know, just tell him to go elsewhere. And you know, it's half time, tongue in cheek, but it was the attitude and I really liked that attitude where it was the Mecca, you know, on a Saturday afternoon. Yeah, in those days, the pubs would shut up to possibly your three, and then they wouldn't reopen until six. So everyone who'd been in the pub on Saturday for lunch, and we'd be there for lunch as well. We'd come back to the record shop hang out, wait till we got kicked out at half five, they got kicked out. You know, we we'd catch up and everything and then we'd be in the pub with them at six o'clock. And and and that happened every you know, every week and we had our gang and we'd all go out and we go to live geeks and stuff like that. So there was that comedian All spirit in an amazing city to grow up in where a lot of bands are coming through, you know, of different sizes, you know, at this at this nightclub called grannies at the top of the, the, you know, the top of the trikon. And it was probably like 250 capacity, then we had ports of poly, which is about 600. And then we had the Guild Hall, which I think is 1800. So, you know, we had a good selection of small, medium and bigger size, you know, REM plates. Guild Hall. Guild Hall. Yeah. So, um, so it was big enough for them, you know, to attract them in larger bands. Yeah. So, yeah, we had that. And I think that, you know, if you look at the, the ethic of the, the modern record shop, and what springs to mind, you know, rough trades, the natural choice, I saw the rough trader moving out of Willy Willy Berg actually in, in New York, made that announcement this week. I don't think they've disclosed where they're going. But that, you know, you go to that, that Rough Trade store in Williamsburg. And it's great. And you've got the venue in there, which Bowery presents run. And, you know, again, it's a it's a communal place to go, no rough trades, you know, you know, in the UK and independent stores, you know, I always talk about pine vinyl in in Portsmouth because run by friends of mine. And we, you know, I think we gave them their first install, I think we gave them a Howler in store or and I know we had ash there at one point and stuff. And diversification were okay, there are a record store. But could they rely on the income of vinyl sales only? Possibly not. So you know, the other half of it were they sold pies. So it's called pine, pine vinyl. And the positive delicious. There's lots of veggie options, lots of vegan options. Yeah. And they bought this credit, you know, that had this credibility. And there's a, there's a comedian called Phil jupitus, who wore he wore a tie and vinyl t shirt on, I think it was Never Mind the Buzzcocks or something like that. And so it got onto people's radar. So that's sort of diversification. And if, if you're running a record shop now, and the customer walks in, and they feel at ease with it, and you know, it's not them in our situation, which are more than guilty of creating, when people looked into our record shopping 984 to 1987. But they're just like, okay, Phil, Phil, relax, you might be able to buy a coffee, you might be able to read a book, you might be able to sit down and listen to something, you know, that there's a lot of sort of events going on, to make them feel wanted, then yeah, I feel that you can do and your point about Virgin and our price and HMV not adapting that that is true, but there, I don't think there's a way that you can bring streaming into Yeah, the high street because your, your streaming domain is in your pocket, you know, it's on your phone. But there's definitely, you know, HMV is still going now, but they've they've gone into receivership three times. And, you know, the question was, they they went into it because they didn't know what they were, you'd go into HMV and you'd see you know, I saw doormats HMV once and you know, the vinyl selection was getting smaller and then vinyl was on the app and it was getting bigger, and CDs are moving to one side and again they were diversifying but it just they couldn't compete and with with prices, and I'll make this one last point on it. My I say this to the students as well. If I go into Rough Trade or into prime vinyl and Sleaford mods, you know, if I go in and buy the Sleaford mods album for 17 pounds, and it's you can get it online for 15. Or you can get it from Amazon probably for 12 quid or something like that. Then me as the consumer, I'm willing to pay the two or three pounds fat tax to to keep that that shopping business because they're not buying in bulk like Amazon are so they're not getting the discount that Amazon are getting, you know, a number of them are probably getting it all on seller return. So if I have to give Rough Trade or pine vinyl an extra three pounds for that, for that record where I could get cheaper. I'm happy to do that because I know that money will be reinvested into new stock or into the staffs wages or something like that. And I think they as as laughable as the term threat tech sounds, I think it's really important to keep these people alive. Really

Roy Sharples: 40:00

There's another point, Dave that you triggered there. And it was around, and I'm speaking in general here about that the high street record stores of today. And what's notable is that the staff have became comparatively careless and clueless about music. I mean, they do not have the same knowledge or passion at all about music and pop culture. And it feels is just like a job.

Dave Cronen: 40:27

Yeah. And we're just sorry just to interrupt but just on that point, you're absolutely right. And I used to get really angry about it and then you know, some of my students used to work at the local HMV and they were put a different perspective on it that they wouldn't get any training you know, they were you know, and they were work to the bone and they were on Zero Hour contracts and so they had no loyalty at all to what they were doing that you know, they needed to subsidize their living and you know, they probably didn't want to be there and and I get that and it goes back to when I when we worked at virgin if we didn't know the catalog number for Mike Oldfield Tubular Bells be 2001 then we would you know we would get they said that we get sacked I've never saw anyone get sacked for it but you get a warning for it because you had to have that product knowledge because you you would get the crazy Bang gellis pain coming in I remember I distinctively remember this and I think about that a lot and I don't know why but there was a van gellis freak who used to come in and wanted a Japanese Import Bank Ellis album and I did the customer orders at the time and and I ordered it for managed to find it got it into the shop and someone in our what you know who was putting all the orders as the orders came in you know, the customer orders would be put to one side by mistake he got put out into the racks and God knows how but someone else found saw this van Gillis Japanese import that was you know, there's it literally was the last copy in the world and snapped up and, and this fan gelous fan freaked out on me. Absolutely, you know, as if their house had burned down. So you know, we had to deal with van Kelly's fans, Iron Maiden and fans queuing up for their multi formats and Queen fans. Yeah. You know, just and you know, and we you know, the other thing, you know, we had to sell the band aid record when it came out. And, you know, we did 1000s of that, you know, normally for number one single weeds, we'd knock out two or 300. With band aid, it was 1000s. You know, everyone was who was on the high street on commercial road imports have popped into our record shop to, to buy it because they thought that they were doing the right thing. So. So yeah, I've gone off track. But that's great. That's my point of view.

Roy Sharples: 43:02

The other thing that you triggered there as well, there was when you actually went up to transact like you selected the records you wanted to buy, and you went up to the cashier and just that anticipation around God as the cashier gonna approve a purchase or not, are they? Are they going to have a smug smile on their face when I want you clueless? You know, those moments are just magical as you look back, you know, but it's just set the bar so high. They really did. And then we're total professional at what they did. They were sorry, total expert at what they did. Yeah,

Unknown: 43:32

yeah. Yeah, no, it

Dave Cronen: 43:34

was and you know, and again, it's always a discussion point as well, you know, someone you know, I remember like, I used to shopping virgin for years before I worked there. And it was really important that I got their nod of approval. I remember buying the first Julian cope solo album, well Shut your mouth. And you know, and I knew that they'd, they'd all approve and in and I managed to see him live on his silo till before they did, I went to the Guilford show, which is the day before the London show. So I, you know, I had a bit of credibility as well. But you know, I've got the nod. When when I took it up to the counter, and there was the singles buyer. Allison was there and she was a huge dam fan, and I was a huge dam fan. So I used to make sure that I got served from her when I bought anything by the dam to get that that approval, but also opened up conversations, you know, you would talk about this record sale, this is a great record. And if you like them, have you heard this, you know, it's like the the Amazon algorithm, you know, people who bought this, like also, you know, listen to this or bought this, you know, we were the we were the human on the AI version of that and, and when we recommend things to people, people would listen and take a chance on it and sometimes it works. Sometimes it didn't. Yeah. So it really was, you know, it's part of that customer service, as rude as we were and as hung over as we were sometimes and how desperate. We were Get out of a shop some nights to go to the pub, you know, we had that rapport with people and not even we've sort of call things, you know, there people were coming in to buy chart records. And we would, you know, and and it was clearly wasn't for them it was their, for their niece or their granddaughter. And we give them the sort of Yeah, you know, this is right for the person that you're buying this for. And, and you know, and if it's not right, keep the receipt and bring it back. And, you know, in exchange it, you know, that, that that interaction with them was really important. And, and you know, I love that. And I think that's why we're lecturing, sort of dealing with students, you've got that human interaction with people and and it was the same with retail. But you know, we've retail, I'm sure that anyone who's listening to this who's been in retail, after three years, he just want to punch people. I've realized that every time I answer a question, I'm closing my eyes and picturing the scenario that I can tell, you can tell

Roy Sharples: 45:57

in the tone in the affection and your voice really, really comes through as well.

Dave Cronen: 46:03

It's great. The week, you go,

Roy Sharples: 46:06

what will the future music artists look like? And what will they be Dave?

Dave Cronen: 46:14

I don't know. I, again, I think I'm the wrong person to ask. And, you know, one of the things that, you know, I'm talking to you about we've been talking about for a long time is the next step of my journey where, you know, I want to start mentoring young managers who have young artists into the industry, because I still don't think there's enough young, young people coming through. And I think that 2020 and 2021 is probably the best time for these people to make their mark and their impact. So it's down to them at the end of the day. I think it can be anything, you know, it can come from tik tok, it can be someone who's collaborating with someone, someone working in a really sort of specific music genre. He just, it's, it's obviously social media lead, they have to appeal to their target demographic at the end of the day, if you want to sort of whittle it down to that. But for me, my age group, it always be people who love music. And and, you know, there's a lot of the a lot of bands that are coming through or have been coming through over the past couple of years, you know, when they talk about math, rock, and things like that, like black MIDI, you know, I love black MIDI, because you know, I'm not really a jazz, but the way that these young young men have come into and found a band where they just hit it off. And it's magical to watch and, and it's inspiring, I just hope it's more of that really like people who, who aren't doing it by numbers to say, if we tick that box, if we tick that box, if we tick that box, then we're going to get a million streams, which means that we get on to this is just like the people who who love what they're doing. And they don't care if they don't have any streams. But they've got a real passion for it, and they want to learn for it, and they want to grow an audience. I think there's plenty of those coming through. And you know, and I hope, you know, they get to have a life side. to it as quickly as possible. The life side is really important. But you have to think about it again, we had a discussion with a festival promoter today. And it's just like, I think any band who's playing in 2021, should consider doing a package tour, because you can't get availability of venues at the moment, because they're all going to get booked up. because no one's been able to play for over a year. There's going to be too much selection for punters. So why don't you put two or three great bands together and take less on fee, because you've got to split up the ticket income between two or three gap bands. But, you know, you could probably have a higher ticket price because you've got free quality acts there. So you get some of that back, you probably have a full show. So there's more chance of selling much. So it's just I think it's sort of keep it keep it evolving. Really, I don't think there's any set formula. You know, the future music artists should be someone who either has a really good overview of what they're doing or has the ability to find someone or the ability within themselves to put really excellent team around them to maximize every opportunity.

Roy Sharples: 49:47

That's great. The point is well that you mentioned you're you're about to embark on your next stage of your journey. Dave and I think looking back as well, when you look at the career that you've had you started in retail, you went into labor management and then artists management and you've stood on the shoulders of some serious giants, you know, as well as they have stood on yours, right? You've looked back and you've had great mentorship, you've given great mentorship, you've acquired lots of experience from a depth and breadth perspective across the industry. What are the key principles that you're going to infuse within your new agency in business as you move forward, and it would be great to hear your philosophy around what your new project is going to be?

Dave Cronen: 50:34

Let's say the philosophy is to two because I'm, I spoke to someone the other day about my vision for for the new company. And, and, obviously, I'm the artists manager. Now, you know, I've been in artists management since 2003, I think so you know, long enough time to be doing it. And I was giving him this sort of the vision of what it's about. And he said, it sounds as if you want to put yourself out of a job, and it's like, it is that's exactly what I want to do. You know, I'm, I'm 54 at the moment, and, you know, I've managed to make a living out of music since I left school and and I'm very lucky and grateful for it. And I still think there's a place for me, within the industry, but more importantly, there's a place for younger people to come through and be dynamic and, and totally understand Tick tock, totally understand Twitch, you know, whatever the next format is, or platform is to exploit it, you know, I've been speaking to my artists this week about doing a podcast through anchor through Spotify, because if you use anchor is really good editing software. But also, once you upload the music to Spotify, Spotify licensed the track on your podcast for you, so that you're doing it legally. And you can play the full track rather than 30 seconds, little things like that, I want to bring these young people through and give them the opportunity and mentor them free year. So that we can start their business, we can structure their business, we can find them their artists, we can find the mentorship, we can find them their income streams, and we can help them find their feet. So after that first year, they're ready to go, or they go into a bigger management company, or they might get moved into a different part of the industry. But that's, that's why I want to do that, you know, the philosophy is, is to nurture and encourage these young people from any background, wherever they're postgrads, wherever they come from a depart deprived backgrounds, and they haven't had the opportunity, but just to have that goodwill that I think I can, I can trade off. And, and to give them the confidence that they can compete with the you know, the the older and theoretically wiser individuals who are in the, in the industry at the moment, I don't want you know, I'm not trying to get rid of them, I don't want it to be a couple. But I want them to be in there to compete with them. So that there's, there's a younger wave coming through really that i think that's that's the whole purpose of it.

Roy Sharples: 53:25

That's excellent. And I like the fact that are that you're kind of taking the baton, and you're giving it back to the next generation of aspiring music artists and, you know, obviously passing on your kind of knowledge and experience, but also just enabling them to really find themselves and nurture their talents as well and help get them to the best start possible for the mangas. Great.

Dave Cronen: 53:46

Yeah, and I think they can bring that enthusiasm because little things that I remember going onto a tour bus for the first time, and it's like, this is the greatest thing in my life. And, and you know, and I look at it now, it's like, it's just a basket of beds, and I never want to sleep in a coffin size. bunk again, because I don't need to, you know, I've been like, you know, I've been on hundreds of tour buses, and I've had great experiences, but I don't want to do that anymore. You know, I don't want to take the long haul flight to Australia to do a week long tour, because I don't I don't need to do it. But these young people would love the opportunity to see to see the world and, and to make those connections with it. And that's what I want. You know, I don't want to be the grumpy man who hasn't been upgraded. You know, like, it's, it's for these people to learn and and find fresh ideas and fresh enthusiasm to sort of plow into, again, not just the music industry, but the creative industries and probably external industries as well,

Roy Sharples: 54:46

based on what you know, and sense now. What do you predict the future trends in the music industry to be and I know you've touched on this kind of throughout, but just kind of bring it together? What would you say those two or three key predictions Our

Dave Cronen: 55:02

future trends. Again, it's it's hard because I rely on technology and startups to do that for me. They, for me, there's, there's not a lot that we need more I need now, I think we've got everything, you know, the technology that we've got can be simplified or, or made more economically to sort of buy. But it's about the platform's really I like the fact that despite all of this and streaming going through the roof and going into sort of emerging markets and stuff like this, I love the fact that vinyl still growing. And that makes me laugh, because, you know, there's, there's nothing better than, you know, playing a piece of vinyl and, and, you know, and really sort of getting the warmth from it, so we can rely on that. But again, you know, one of my students is doing his first twitch broadcast on Sunday, and I'm going to be watching that and I'm excited about that for for him and for me, because I'm going to learn from it. I'm going to be excited about putting this podcast up on Monday with Wesley Gonzalez. So it's just the opportunities that we present and, and to be given the time, I haven't had that because of you know, I've been in a very busy full time job over the past four years where, which I love and I'm not going to complain about it, but I haven't had the time to actually sit down and research something or read properly, you know, my, you know, I have to find time to read at the end of the day and I'm too tired and I hate that, you know, I know you're exactly the same way you know the amount that you research and read and you get these ideas from you know, I'm I want to do that and I want to encourage these younger people to do their research and read and read that interview and bw or CMU, go on to music Li and see what the latest report says. Have a look at the ISP report and see what's happening with global sales. All of that is just having that knowledge and being able to do something with it. I just hope that the industry is keep tracking this information and and technology as that we can we can also cover if

Roy Sharples: 57:25

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