Unknown Origins

Mat Bancroft on Art Direction & Curation

Mat Bancroft Season 1 Episode 3

Art Director and Pop Culture Curator Mat Bancroft provides perspective on his creative process by fighting for the art against tensions that counter it by curating and detailing the movements he's inspired by and involved in by assembling, cataloging, managing, and presenting their artistic and cultural importance.

From Johnny Marr's Art Director to being part of the curation team that organized and realized True Faith - an exhibition of the artistic legacy and influence of Joy Division and New Order exhibit at the Manchester Art Gallery and Manchester International Festival in 2017. Spearheaded various pop culture archives, including Factory Records, Tony Wilson and Rob Gretton, and his current work on Derek Jarman's archive for Art Fund UK.

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Roy Sharples:

Hello, I'm Roy Sharples, and welcome to the unknown origins podcast series, the purpose of which is to deliver inspirational conversations with creative industry experts on entrepreneurship, pop culture, art, music, film and fashion. Today's focus is art direction and curation, which I have the pleasure of chatting with Mat Bancroft, who is an independent curator, archivist and art director specializing in 20th century pop culture. From Johnny Marr's art director to being part of the curation team, but organized and realized true faith, which was an exhibition of the artistic Legacy and influence of Joy Division, a new order exhibited at the Manchester Art Gallery, and Manchester International Festival in 2017. spearheading various pop culture archives, including the archives of Factory Records, Tony Wilson, and Rob Gretton and his current work on Derek Jarman's archive for art form UK. Hello, and welcome, Matt.

Mat Bancroft:

How you doing? Yeah, I'm fine. Thanks. So

Roy Sharples:

what inspired and attracted you into the profession of being an art director and curator,

Mat Bancroft:

and I guess, I, I was always interested in art generally. And music, particularly when I was younger, and that's it a kind of growing up when I chose the path of learning and going through the kind of educational program within the arts, so when to do an Art Foundation, and then went to university to study design and art direction, which was a kind of broad, graphic design and advertising course, really, and through that, kind of works, worked through that three years as a degree course. And, but but kind of found that I think, as I was doing, I wasn't quite sure what exactly I wanted to do, I was really, I was acting like a fine artist in a world where you need or work in a world where you have briefs and quite, you know, specific way of working, you know, with clients, obviously, most of the time and so I was kind of at odds with that world. So I ended up really just being a fine artist, and, and then fell out of that world for a while went and went away into just all the work for quite a quite quite a long time, but was always doing my own creative work in the background, and, you know, kind of on the side and decided then about, well, yeah, really kind of in my late 20s, early 30s, to kind of stop to kind of refocus and get back to that word, I realized that I was missing it. And I wasn't I guess in my head, I wasn't kind of fulfilling the potential that I thought I had yet to kind of contribute or to be involved in that in creative work generally. So and around that time, I that's when I met Johnny Marr and, and kind of formed a friendship with him. And then a kind of creative partnership with him really. And it was at the same time when he was kind of setting up his set himself up as a solo performer really, and after after being in Modest Mouse, and then the cribs. And, and that was kind of the sign really, for me to tap to start to take it more seriously. And I'd always been a big fan of music, you know, still, I'm still I still have music, and and was interested in pop culture, generally as well and trying to work out why things connected together and how they connected together. And I guess once I realized that I was doing that kind of naturally. And then I thought, well, I now need to find a way of doing that for myself kind of putting putting myself into that kind of ball game, as well and beat crunch trying to be part of it. And I guess more than anything, curation seemed to me as a kind of natural way of doing that, because it was a way of bringing all the skills that I had developed together. And to be able to be involved in the creative arts without having to be the actual creative artists, you know what I mean? So I guess that was that was the sort of journey to it. And I just always just been a fan, were really just a fan of music, film. And as I say, just seeing how those links came together really how did your relationship with Gianni establish was it by accident? Or was it something that you could have targeted and instigated it was completed by accident in a way I was working, I was working in retail at the time and I was a retail manager and he he used to shop where I worked and and we just sort of you know, is a very kind of personable Yeah, guy way and so we would always chat you would always be interested in you know the products but also I think we used to always play really great music in the shop. And there were a bunch of really nice people. So he, we just kind of got to know each other through that, really, it was a very kind of natural and quite long sort of process in a way, just, you know, when you come in, we chat about things. He talked about music he likes, I talked about music I liked and we realized, obviously, we had a lot in common. Obviously, I was aware who he was, yeah, my, um, you know, sort of professionalism, always kind of kick kicked in and out, you know, I was just making it a he was a customer. Yeah. And, you know, so he needs to be treated like, he wasn't to be sort of, you know, bothered, and, you know, just talk about his world all the time. And then his, we had a position and his daughter came to work for us. And so I guess that sort of got us closer as well. And, and yeah, we just, we were friends, really, and we became friends. And we used to sort of, you know, just chat about things that we both liked. And then when he was kind of starting to establish the idea in his head of going out as Johnny Marr, rather than as Johnny Marr, and the healers, or as you know, having been the cribs has been in modest math as mouse's as a prior to that. And he just said, Well, you know, why don't you Why don't we think about how I can kind of work together on on, you know, album covers and things like that. And initially, it was just as a sort of collaborative project. It wasn't, I didn't think that I'd necessarily be the person to do that work. Yeah, I was just kind of helping him formulate his ideas. And because I had knowledge and experience, not necessarily in the practicalities of doing the work, but just in the pop culture generally. And, and he obviously, just as well, we kind of, we were put, you know, pulling ideas together and thinking about how, how he could present himself as a solo artist, and, and not just be a guitar player, but yeah. And singer and a songwriter, and a performer and a band leader, and all those things that he now is, but I mean, he always was, but you know, publicly he now the 4g? And he just said, Well, why don't you know, why don't you do it? And that that really was the kind of the start of that sort of second wave of a career for me almost in a way, you know, from the things I was doing at university the first time when I did do bits of graphic design and things like that, but you fell out of it. That was the catalyst. And so yeah, that you're right. That is when I was kind of taking it seriously, because I guess I kind of had to all of a sudden, it was a great learning experience. I mean, I'm at that point, I'd not, I'd never done a record cover before. And, and I'd never really made a video before and I've not done merged before I understood the mechanics of how those things happened. But yeah, I was just thrown into it. And it was just a case that he just said, Well, you know, you do it, and his manager at the time, Geico, Joe moss, who was, you know, a really great guy. And he was really supportive and liked the idea. And everyone, just let me get on with it. Really,

Roy Sharples:

what an opportunity. But absolutely, kudos to Johnny's on. I mean, I think one of the things that maybe goes unnoticed, how great of a talent spotter he is. And

Mat Bancroft:

he's very true, you know, incredibly trusting, because, you know, it's not like I had this massive, back catalogue of work to go for at the time, and I think it's very intuitive. And, and he really does pick good people to be around him. And I think that that kind of community then makes, I guess, it kind of makes life easier, it means he can concentrate on what you what he wants to do, knowing that the people kind of bringing together all the elements. Yeah, you know, doing a good job. And he's also very involved in that world. It's definitely a collaboration for me with his you know, then it's his product. And he is, in one sense, he is the client as well as being, you know, a friend and a collaborator, yes, got to be right for him. And I guess one of the things that I'm good at is helping him realize the visions that he may have for the product and the concepts which obviously, often come from the songs that he's writing at that time. And what he's influenced by I guess, it's my job is to create the kind of visual responses to his music to allow the overall kind of umbrella concept for each album, video single or whatever it might be, to be communicated properly to the audience, I guess, how do you make the invisible visible without sounding pretentious, by curating and detailing

Roy Sharples:

the work that you're going to do and whether that's developing the concept through assembling, cataloging, managing and presenting the artists cultural importance of your subjects and and also looking at tools and techniques, methods And even technologies that you use to help improve your creative process.

Mat Bancroft:

So I guess in it to break down to three areas that I work in and in, and there is a, there is a link between all of them in one sense, which is a guest that, and I as someone who is very interested in pop culture, and very interested in the kind of why to pop the off shoots that come from that, and to almost have been obsessive about it. And they're kind of, you know, someone who reads a lot about it looks at it a lot finds those connections, that gives me I guess, a kind of base of knowledge in which to draw inspiration from so I guess that's what I'm doing. Most of the time. Yeah, it is simple sense that that would be called, you know, referencing you, you know, you someone says to you, there's this I, we have this project, or we have this idea. And immediately, I will kind of go backwards and think oh, that that's that, that links to that particular thing that happened, or that period, or that movement, or that person from 1965, to when

Roy Sharples:

you get an idea. So your your natural default of thought is that you can look in the rear mirror and kind of go backwards to reference those touch points in pop culture or

Mat Bancroft:

Yeah, I mean, that's always the starting point. For me, I think it's incredibly natural for me to do that. And again, I don't mean that in a pretentious way. It's Yeah, that's just what my brain does. I don't I don't think I'm not particularly at that stage. Anyway, I'm not particularly forward looking. I don't think I very rarely think to myself, okay, so this, this particular project, how are we going to revolutionize curation are how we how are we going to create an album cover that no one else has ever, ever created? Because I think that that's not mine. That's not what I'm good at. And that's not what my natural kind of bend is in, in the things that I'm interested in. So, and that doesn't mean I don't want it to be relevant today. And again, let's say if I'm working on, you know, working on a project with Johnny, of course, we want, we want it to be relevant to a modern audience. It's not about an old audience who were, you know, seeing him as a, as a kind of iconic figure from the past? Yeah. And it's a case of going well, who's the, you know, who's the new audience who we're going to bring out? How do we represent his current music and his contemporary music in the right way. So he's, you still want to have you want it to appeal across the audience spectrum, but you also very specifically want it to make sure it's hitting kind of current trends and the current market properly. And so you want a contemporary edge to it. But it's not necessarily about a kind of contemporary technological edge in the sense of it being a record cover that is made of a material that's never been used before, for record coverage. Like that. That's not the way my brain works. It's about the overall concept. And I think actually for for me, I because because that's the way pop culture works. In my view, you see strands of UC strands of history, strands of artistic history, in the widest sense, creative history through every bit, every bit of pop culture, you know, every every rap music release, or, or the majority anyway, and every film you, if you if you look hard enough, you'll see all the links backwards, and then in turn, you can see some possible projections forward. And I guess that's the way my brain my brain works. So on, on an album cover, that's what I'll be doing. I'll be thinking, Okay, so. So, Johnny, in this, in this case, working with Johnny, he might be talking about things that are influencing him, or he might be talking about the kind of idea that he wants to recover. And I will go okay, right. Well, I will then work backwards and go, right. Well, he is. What about this photograph? Oh, yeah. So is that the kind of thing you're talking about? is, you know, what about this? You know, what, let's watch this film. And see, when that person does that, that could be really interesting. We could use that as a starting point. It never ends up looking like that. Yeah, that's that. That's our starting point. It takes us in the right direction. It kind of keeps us in the right sort of Yeah, puts it in the right area for how we're going to work. And, and same with kind of curatorial projects. I will be thinking to myself, I guess with curatorial projects unless someone is coming to me, for me to work within kind of my area of expertise on that project. I will be thinking what what do I want to go and see, you know, what is it what would be a good curatorial what what would be a good exhibition idea? That's the way most exhibitions work, they, you know, they, it's somebody in a whether they're independent or they work in a gallery or museum. coming up with ideas for, you know, good exhibitions, whether that's based on their collection based on their interest in a particular anniversary, or whatever it might be, you know, something is saying to you, or this could be an idea for an exhibition. And so I guess that's what I do I sort of within the within the world of pop culture, think about well, that these things have linked together quite nicely. And all of a sudden, I've seen that artwork, right now I've got three or four things that are linked together. Can I expand on that? And can I start to think, is there is there an exhibition in this? Is there a bigger exhibition idea, and obviously, sometimes, quite quickly, sometimes that can take two or three years or most to get the idea together before you can kind of present it and actually have, you know, get in essence, get it, get it into a nutshell, what you're trying to talk about what is what is the actual idea within the exhibition, you know, so yeah, that's, that's how that works. And I guess within archives, I'm, that's a bit more sin that's simpler in the structure, which is that somebody already has an archive, they already have a collection of stuff, whether it's theirs or things that they've kind of brought together, whether it's connected to a family, whether it's, you know, a partner who's passed away, or Yeah, it's the person themselves, they are sitting on a bunch of their things that they need to formalize and put together. And in that sense, it's a slightly different project, because it's about documenting. It's that kind of kind of labor in a more labor intensive project, which is to you know, assess, learn, look through document. And then if you are going to develop exhibition from that, find connections within that archive, to tell a story about a particular person. So that's, that's a simple process. It doesn't always lead doesn't always have a creative output at the end of it. That might be the end of the project, which is that it was an archive that needed documenting, but I guess, my my areas of knowledge, prior to document in the archive mean that I'm on, I at least understand what I'm looking at. You do a lot of learning and research on it as well. You know, of course,

Roy Sharples:

of course. Yeah. Sure. So was that the method you pretty much applied to the true faith exhibit you did, and also the the archiving work that you can have brought to life, and with the stuff you've done around Rob Gretton and Tony Wilson, and I guess as well, the more current project that you're doing with Derek Jarman.

Mat Bancroft:

Yeah, I mean, so it the most recent one first, the Derek Jarman projects is simply for me, I am a job of documenting a kind of in a project of inventory. Yeah, there is no greater output for me with a day job and project it was. That's purely because of the process that's happening around the stabilization of prospect cottage, which is where he used to live for a big portion of his life down in the dungeon. As you might have seen, there was a project recently, where, which was kind of spearheaded by the art fund in the UK, which was to raise the money to save the prospect cottage, basically. And, and so that's now happened, that's been successful. And the handover process from there. The previous not even really owners, but the people who currently have responsibility for it before it hands over to the people who will have responsibility for it, who are creative, cultural institution, and there needs to be a document that basically informs everybody of what will be handed over. So that's what I'm doing. But obviously, in doing that, because of the, I guess, to the kind of person I am, I am learning a lot about Derek Jarman. I am learning a lot about various, you know, that periods in his life where he's been, you know, people who he's connected to seeing the links in his work to other people's work and, and naturally, even though that might not give me a direct exhibition concept, it obviously starts to form ideas and links into other other things that I'm working on. So it's all even if there's not a creative end game for me, it's always still, you know, fascinating privilege to be able to go through, you know, someone is important as Derek Jarman's property, in essence, you know, and kind of private materials and just just see what's out there. And with regards the factory exhibition at Chelsea space that came around because of an anniversary, it was the 40 years of the kind of launch of Factory Records and myself and john Savage, the writer and curator he we'd been approached about About to, to kind of mark that in some way. And that then led me to think about what what is the exhibition? How are we going to document that period? You know, what, how far are we going to go into go within the factory? catalog? You know, when do we start and stop? What do we want to talk about? Obviously, there's lots of stakeholders in the world of factory, and the bands who've been involved, the families of the people who are no longer with us who who were pivotal. And it Savile, or the designers, you know, there's lots of people you have to kind of talk to, and, in essence, make sure they're happy with this concept. And the, and the overall idea and the way it's going to be presented and the kind of level and stature that it's at, because of because obviously it reflects on them yeah, on their work. But also it reflects on the people as a stay who, who had been involved who don't have a you know, how to say anymore? And and so that was that was a kind of anniversary angle. And then me and john start to think about, well, how can we format that? What do we want to say? What do we want to talk about? What do we want to show is to say, How far do we want to go. And true faith was already, it was an already developed idea. It was a concept of a curator in who's based in New York and Matthew Higgs, he runs a gallery gallery called White columns. And, and he's from the UK. He's from Charlie, I think, and knew what you know, new Joy Division was a big fan was, you know, was kind of really into that was part of that world in there as a fan as a teen fan? Yeah, in the late 70s, early 80s, was an artist in the UK. And then at some point moved to the US to be head of white collar, which is a very, very highly respected curator, and you know, really interesting person and he'd, he developed that idea, and it proposed it to, to manage Dr. Gallo as part of the festival. So when I at that time, I was doing some work with monster Art Gallery. And so I moved on to it as the kind of or but from a kind of an organizational perspective with with a lady called Fiona coverage and who was the kind of main curator for Manchester Art Gallery, I kind of assisted her on that project. But john savage was also working on it because it had a fine art and pop cultural angle. And another guy called Johann Google Burke, who's who runs a company called blu ray, New York based teaser, again, a kind of archivists, curator, and based over in New York, so you know, very vocal in a quite an important guy involved in a lot of major archives of art, major archival work and collections, stabilizing collections over there, and predominately pop culture based it so it was already an established idea. So my work on that was about helping the kind of organizational side, you know, bringing all those bringing all those things together, the kind of practicalities of curation, that note of the word Israeli, which is just the sort of organizational process of getting everything to the gallery, you know, thinking about the concept, thinking about the layout. And so it was really, it was a real kind of big team effort, but it was a fantastic exhibition.

Roy Sharples:

It was, I mean, I remember you on your recommendation, I went to see it back in them. August 2017, at the Manchester Art Gallery, and it's when you get there, it's like you fall into the world, I mean, that the aesthetics and the identity around the kind of bond is just so accurate. And when you feel the mood. And so the minute we over color in the message, the narrative, all of that was just spot on.

Mat Bancroft:

It was Yeah, was fantastic. It was a brilliant, brilliant exhibition. And it and I guess for me, what I one of the reasons that I was really happy to work on it was because I, I didn't know a lot of the people connected to factory before doing exhibition, I was aware of factory generally and but I kind of knew that I hoped that it was going to connect me to them. So I could then go to more work that well exactly what he did. I mean, I was sort of you know, it just a natural sort of business step of you know, kind of one person to the next really, and that's exactly what he did it opened up that world to me and to doing good work on it. I've got to know them and I guess there's an element of trust now with Yeah, and with that to do with some of the people connected to that though, you know, that early period of factory anyway, I don't know a lot of people in this sort of in kind of later years, but it does, it has meant that it has kind of opened up, opened doors for me in that area. So it was very important exhibition in the same way working with johnnie was important for me in one strand of my work that that true faith exhibition was vital in that kind of cure, you know, with this or curatorial projects that I am doing have done and I'm looking to do in the future. So

Roy Sharples:

you see that, like you mentioned, there's obviously like this the strong relationship, and they're gone the organic component, but at the end of the day, it's the quality of the work, and the way that you can collaborate with those people that you have that's kind of spawned the relationships further and also the the repeat work, and the evolution of that. So that's the total credit to the, to the actual work itself that you've, you've driven in land.

Mat Bancroft:

Yeah, thanks. Well, I mean, you've got Yeah, I mean, it's difficult, isn't it to talk about yourself in that? But But yeah, I mean, yeah, I do have to look at it and go, Well, I must, I must be doing something, right, I guess that you know, that the people are happy, or want to continue to work when they are happy for me to continue to work with them on those kinds of projects. Yeah. And I guess, from my perspective, and what I have such respect for the people themselves, and the work that they produced, you know, I, Johnny's my friend, but I have so much respect for him as an artist and the work he's done kind of past, past, present, and future, you know, in all, in all the various projects that he's worked on, and bands he's been part of, and that I wouldn't ever want to do pour work on him off, you know, so there it these people set a standard for me to hit I think, and in the same way with that with the exhibitions, you know, when you're working with people you respect, or you're working with people's work that you respect, and you don't want to, because that what poorly or let anybody down? And, you know, it's so it's kind of personal for me in that sense. You know, I, I take it seriously. And I think I know, we've spoken before about pop culture generally, and but I take pop culture seriously. Yeah. And I know that the people I'm working with do, and because because of that, we we all understand its importance. You know, it's not, it's not a lesser art than fine art. It's not a lesser creative area than, you know, opera or ballet or the things that are considered so exact ad is more important, in my opinion, it hits, it hits far more people than those those things ever do. And it educates them in a way that those those areas that are no less important as well. But it doesn't, it doesn't hit in the same way that pop culture does. When I look at the

Roy Sharples:

portfolio, talent that you've collaborated with, it's almost like you've cherry picked them. And it probably could go it says a lot about your discipline and integrity around working with the people that you really want to kind of work with. And you probably haven't a sacrifice, and push back on things that may be commercially viable. But you've probably said, Well, no, it's not really I want to work on these kind of things. Because it's the art of kind of what I'm doing and that whole love around that is much more important than working with people that maybe I don't have the same affection or, or respect for. And so the sounds like there's a real integrity that goes through your taste and your prioritization in terms of who you work with.

Mat Bancroft:

Yeah, I think that's true. I think I think a lot of that was I mean, I think that that is there anyway, but I think a lot of that was because I because I came to kind of find my feet quite late, really, I suppose in one sense. I mean, I'm 41 and I'm it's not like I'm past it, but I think you were very different person when you're 40 than when you're 20. Yes, fine to start out in a creative industry where you as you need the money much more you are learning of course, as I am, of course, still, but you may be sort of just snatch it everything because it's work. And you think that's the right thing to do. And yes, fundable completely understandable that people do that. And I think because I because I came at it a bit later, I'd almost had like 10 years to think about what I want to do and who I wanted to be. And because of that you take some risks, some financial risks, I suppose by not just doing all any bit any, any work you want. And, but yeah, allowed me to kind of set me up with a knowledge base and a sort of decision making process to think actually, I don't, yeah, I'm just gonna, I'm going to work slower, when I'm only going to work with people that I really respect and like, and whose work I like and also try and build up a portfolio for myself of work that is exactly as you just want, as you picked upon, says to someone. This is the kind of work that Matt Bancroft does, Mm hmm. And that's perfect for me. That's exactly what how I want it to be three projects a year that are greater than 10 And go actually had that one didn't really work out. And varies by that, but I just did it for the money or I just did it, I got kind of, you know, strong armed into it, I would much rather Yeah, pick, pick my projects and be and be a bit more patient with everything and just see how things develop some of those, some of those projects that I am instigating, and I try to instigate, and sometimes they don't come off, of course, you know, for various reasons. Timing, yeah, you know, all of the very practical things. And that, unfortunately, in the, you know, in a post COVID world is, you know, kind of very, very prevalent at the moment. I mean, I'm having those conversations with people at the moment, about projects that should have started this year that we're going to start early part of next year that are now still happening, but there's no real definisi on date, they might get pulled. And that's, that's the way it goes. You know, it's completely understandable. So, and I hope I can continue to think that way. Because I don't Yeah, I don't want to, I don't want to do lots of work that I don't really love. And, and what's great is I like working with the people that I work with as well. I work with johnnie a lot. And I've done a lot of work with him since 2010. And, and due on him involved in everything that he does really in that in the kind of non music sense and the non business sense of his world. You know, videos merge, yeah, uncovers, and even if I'm not the person, you know, I'm not that that obviously means we involve other people as well. He involves other people. I might not be the video director, I might not be the photographer. I might be the art director for everything. But sometimes I might be the photographer, sometimes I might be the video director. Yeah, I was I might be the the person who comes up with the idea. Sometimes I'm just facilitating but. And I like all the people that we work with. And that's far more interesting than me going away and doing another Yes. With a band that I've never heard often. You know, I like the collaboration of working with Johnny. And the same with the curatorial projects I am doing I work with john savage a lot. I like working with john Savage. He's a very, very intelligent and interesting person with a lot of experience. And so you learn a lot from john, and saying, you know, within that within those worlds that he's worked in. And, you know, it does open up conversations with really interesting people who I might not have met without knowing these people and other people. So and yes, very interested. And if I can keep working with those people and develop a kind of niche or most. And obviously, Nisha has been by nature that you're quite limited in the scope. But it but there's, if there's enough, I think there's I foresee there is enough good work within that niche that should allow me to continue to do this, hopefully, for no years to come.

Roy Sharples:

One of the key skills that are essential for being an art director and curator,

Mat Bancroft:

I Well, I guess they're quite different in those two different areas. I guess in curation, there is a lot of it. It's a kind of project management role, I think more than anything else. So there's a there's there's just that actual, you know, the kind of organizational process. Yeah, and that you need to put in place your data, you know, you're potentially dealing with lots of different lenders, lots of different so I guess, in curation, I guess there's two sides to it. There's the exhibition itself, how it looks, what the idea is, that's the kind of creative element to it. And then there's the organizational element, which is 80% of the work probably, or the majority of the work that leads to the kind of the thing that everybody sees. So there's the work behind the scenes. That Yes, that's an organizational role. I think more than anything from the people that I've met. And these people, you know, a lot more experienced than me still at it, of course, but the people that I've been lucky enough to work with you I learned a lot from the get at the galleries that you know, that I've worked at and the people that I've worked with, you work with work with different galleries, and there's a lot yeah, there's lots and lots of organizing, planning, people management, project management, and I guess one of the reasons that I wanted to get into the world of curation and I went back in, I retrained in my late 30s, I went and did a master's in, in contemporary curating, having done all this work in other areas was I was trying to think how can I combine all the skills I've learned in this area that I think I could do some good work in? And so I do lots of work with people. I've done lots of work, managing people, managing budgets, yeah. keeping people on track, or the really, you know, classic stuff you have to do in that world, you know, cleaning people and you know, inspiring people, you know, all Other things that go into being a people manager, yeah. And then bringing that side of it to this pop culture and creating knowledge that had an interest that I had, and kind of trying to combine those, those two areas. So that's, that's why I have experienced curatorial projects to be Yeah, planning, organizing, dealing with different lenders dealing with different institutions, and planning, the transportation of all the works time, you know, bringing all those things together. So they all hit exactly the right time. So then you have the enough time to then do the really exciting and interesting bit, which is to plan how the exhibition is going to look. And, and I guess the other part of that is, obviously, then you have the, you know, the install period, where you're generally working with all the people with the expertise, you know, how to do that kind of thing. And, and then the other part of that is the idea part, you know, it's going right back to the start, well, what, what is, if the idea isn't being brought to you, or you're not being asked to help realize an idea that somebody else already has? What is what do you want to see, see exhibitions about? You know, what's the, what's the concept going to be? So that's the creative side, the research side, the sort of natural side that I have in my head, which is, as I'm, as I'm studying, and learning and reading and thinking about pop culture, how do they? How do all those different strands come together to start to, you know, form the the genesis of an exhibition, and then you do all the work on top of that, which is, well, now I've got an idea, how can I find the work that expresses that idea? to an audience? You know, I'm assuming a curator I worked with, you know, said to me once that the job of a curator is to ask questions and not and not answer them. And actually, that that was a real kind of game changer for me in my way of thinking, because I was I was kind of thinking about, I'm going to put an A put an exhibition together. And that is going to be about how, how I tell somebody, something, and actually, that was completely wrong. It was about how I offer look, yes, yes, news to an audience and let them think about what the connections might be, and then let them walk away with their own strand of, of kind of thinking about it. And so that was that that was really interesting. So I guess that's what all of those things together, you're trying to do, in a sort of with it with a curatorial project or with an exhibition. And sometimes it's obviously is quite specific, someone has asked you to put on to promote something, or do something very specific in a, in a specific space for an amount of time that says something about a person or company or a brand or an idea. And that is much simpler, it's actually quite simple, then you just facilitate that, really, but, and it's all also all of those skills need to come together within the art direction world, and I only have worked in quite a limited way in that. So in a broad sense, I would I would be the wrong person to talk about how, what are all the skills are, but I guess for me, it was my experience. And, again, you're dealing with? Well, you know, I'm dealing with a record company. So you're dealing with a massive kind of corporate machine that has got to has a very has a very different aim to the aim that I have with the how I want the record sleeve. Let's let's use the record sleeve as an example. Yeah, our on the record sleeter. Look, they have, you know, so you're having to balance, and you're creative and impetus with a commercial imperative and making sure that records can be sold well. And he also represents the artist and the artists. vision as well. In my case, that's with the work that I've done. Yeah, I'm sure both to, you know, to use the kind of classic example in a world that I've worked on, if you spoke to Peter Savile about that, that his his creative. impetus is very different. Because he's, he was often in a position where he didn't have to answer to a band, or an artist or a record company. Yes, fact gave him the autonomy to do the work he wanted to do. And so he had a different angle, and a different drive. And so he could be it his work could be kind of more pure, in a sense. Yeah. And, you know, very lucky to be working with bands and artists who obviously they're getting it because they trusted him and they knew he did good work before and so I get this, you know There's the scales of compromise. And you have to, you know, you have to learn, you're not always going to get your own way. And you have to understand the commercial imperative, of course, and there's still an element of project management, I tend to get involved a lot or people kind of, by default, because of the way that I work, I end up being the person who and how not doesn't handle I don't handle the production. But I get, I have to approve a lot of the production methods and questions. So you know, all those things that and I'm no expert in production, so, but I still have to then go and go away and just make decisions about you know, cardboard weights and printing processes and all those kinds of things. So yes, and that is what an art director probably does a lot of the time anyway, but and you understanding those elements of it. And, and I guess, just, for me, I'm trying to try it, I always think my job is to stand up for the art, yes, what I'm doing, that's my, that's kind of my job, to try and stand up for the purity of the art concept as much as possible, against whatever. And whatever may come to just kind of, you know, rub away at that a little bit, bit by bit over over time prior to the release of the product, because naturally those things will happen. There were budgetary factors, there are commercial factors, there are practical factors, which means you don't always get your own way. So yeah, my job is to kind of be the person sort of waving the flag for the purity of the art concept really.

Roy Sharples:

Excellent. And from your experience Mize what but what are the key lessons learned in terms of the pitfall pitfalls to avoid, and the keys to success that you can share with aspiring art directors and curators?

Mat Bancroft:

I think you have to be thinking, I think now you have to be patient. And, and, and kind of try. I mean, it's difficult, isn't it now in a sort of, yeah, post COVID world it would have been a very, you know, it would have been a very different answer, I think you need to go. I, I think you need you don't have to do this. But I think in my case, it was very important to go and study, to go you know, to do our foundation to go through the processes if that's if you're not necessarily if you're a young, younger person coming to it, it doesn't matter cuz I went back to university in my 30s but I think it helps to go through the processes of a kind of educational system within the creative arts generally, because I think the what Art Foundation does for you is very important in the UK anyway certainly did for me, it completely freed me up from the kind of a level student I was and it taught me so much I learned about so many different people and design movements. And it also connected to me connected me for the first time to a bunch of other people my age, wanting to do the same thing as me. Yes. And that's not just specifically about the arts that could be for any thing you go and do but particularly within I think the creative arts it it gives you a community and a network straightaway. And to be part of which is very inspiring, it gives you people to work with, to connect with you can be a team and you can be you can start to you know, kind of create, you know, group groups who work together on certain projects, and you meet loads of different people from different places, all those kind of obvious things, but it just, it really just frees you up, it kind of explodes everything that you you knew and starts to help you kind of rebuild your brain in a new way I put putting all these different parts back together and filling in the gaps and there's lots and lots and lots and lots of gaps. And obviously there's still of course, but you start to learn you start to discover and then I think you know, you take that one stage further into into degree form in the UK anyway and you it just helps you helps you start to coalesce I think it helps you start to think about the kind of person you want to kind of designer you want to be and again just opens you up to loads more people, different cities, different ideas. And and then I think you know, working with different styles and then work with different people who can be very inspiring and you can start to guide you and give you give you some practical knowledge is very important. And I think sometimes learning what you don't learning what you don't want to do. Yeah, when I when I came out of university, the first time I went and did design work with a very, very, very good, important Manchester graphic designer. And, and really just didn't like what like it I just did. And that wasn't because they were bad or the company was was a bad place to work, I just didn't like the process of the work, the work they were doing was fantastic. Some of the best graphic design work and art direction work. And working in areas that I like now, you know, music, culture, you know, rebranding of architecture, all those kind of things, I just didn't like the process of the work. And that wasn't their fault. That was that that is for a lot of places, that is the process of the work. And that kind of threw me because I thought that's exactly what I wanted to be and what I wanted to do, and that's why I ended up having to, to kind of break because I, I came out of that process really going on. Shit, I don't, I don't think I want to be a graphic designer. Yeah, and I probably didn't. And probably, and I don't really consider myself a graphic designer either. And so that that was a good that was good for me to do that it meant I kind of, you know, drew back a little bit and thought, actually, let's rethink what you want to be. So those those kind of experiences can be good. And then in my 30s, I went and I went and volunteered with, with with Manchester Art Gallery, and I just thought I want to put, try and put myself in a position where I could just learn as much as possible. And in a practical sense, and find out if I if you know, the world of being a curator is is something that I want to do and can do, and, and against saying, you know, just learned so much from the team there. They gave that they gave me so much practical experience. I didn't feel there was anything. I mean, you know, the the world of having to volunteer is not not an ideal one, I don't think I know very much believe that people should be paid for the work they do, however, and that might that may change again, because I think there's a there's a kind of reaction now to a lot of the kind of the world of the internet and the world of the volunteer. Yeah. Or, unfortunately, is the world that a lot of areas work in and the arts are generally underfunded. So they do need that work. And actually, I just, I was lucky because again, I think this is coming to it later, I already had a job, I already had work, I was doing all this on my day off, you know. So it didn't matter to me that I wasn't being paid for it in quite the same way. But it was it was just what I had to do. And I wanted to do. So I kind of went and worked with the curators there. And they were very quickly gave me lots of responsibility and work to do and trusted me to just get on with projects and contacting people. They weren't my projects. They were their project. Yeah, but they trusted me to assist them. And I think they could see that the work I'd been doing with Johnny and my interest in pop culture and the other bits of work that I've done to that point, I'm sure only kind of quite minor really. And I think they saw that I had an area of expertise that helped that complimented their curatorial team, which was predominantly Fine Art focused and fashion focused, and costume collection focused. And, and so they didn't have anyone who was sort of as obsessed with pop culture as I was then who was making the connections. And obviously, they could see that they had projects coming up, that maybe I could bring knowledge to and just assist with and even if in a practical sense, but then as things developed in a, you know, actually maybe make suggestions and understand the work I was looking at all the work that they were going to have to look at I already knew what that was and I already knew what that related to and who that related to and why that why that matters. You know what that what the title of that artwork what that song lyric referred to, I already knew all of that kind of stuff anyway because I was already kind of immersed in that world so so that that that practical experience of just going and volunteering and being part of a institution was vital. So I would say if people can get that practical experience and in in those kind of creative fields in art direction on in curation, they definitely should if they're able to, you know if they can find a viable for them. It helps definitely

Roy Sharples:

fantastic. And so tilting forward, might look into the future. What do you see is that some of the key forces that are driving change within your profession from a socio cultural, economical, political and technological perspective.

Mat Bancroft:

Well, I think that on a purely practical sense, now, there'll be real financial constraints. And particularly on major institutions, particularly public institutions in the UK, and obviously know you're based in the US ROI and that the the way that the USA RS market is funded is very different than it was in the IoT, we have the Arts Council here, we have things, you know, things like the art fund, and it's obviously far more kind of benefactor and patron driven in the in, in the USA. And so in the UK, they'll be I think, they'll naturally be some, some cuts. And so I think people will have to adapt to that and develop projects that might actually be more kind of homegrown, there might be less, you know, so all those things that cost a lot, when you're putting together an exhibition, you know, the transportation of major works from around the world, we might find that actually there, people are going to use their collections much more. And you're kind of used into UK collection, management projects much more, there might be far more collaboration between institutions, so you can lower the budget restrictions a little bit. So you know, rather than one institution putting on an exhibition, to will share it, and they can have both, you know, they can help fund it and all that kind of stuff. And I think that we will see the tech, not technological change with exhibitions moving to online, so people can experience the exhibition without having to go, Yeah, because I think and not just the exhibitions, but I think collections as well, there's been a big project in the UK, which is, I think, I think if memory serves is it's just called Art UK, which is about digitizing, and offering up public institution collections for people to research and find and see online. And that's, that's a really interesting project, because it allows you to discover what's in public institutions without having to go and make appointments, and, you know, then drag that work out and all those kinds of things, which obviously people can't do anyway. And but I think that technological change will just continue, I think you're, I think so why don't release our past. And I think, I think, I think there'll be a technological change, I think you will find, and institutions moving from or supporting the physical exhibition with a technological, or with a virtual exhibition, yes, or the opportunity to view it virtually. And they might need to monetize that as well. Because that might be a way of them, you know, driving income, of course, when visitor numbers are going to be down. And Jim will travel numbers are going to be down. So though all those are the things that affect, you know, tourism, restrictions on travel, and so on, and so forth. And so I think people will find new ways of digitizing the work, creating, and different ways for them to experience the exhibition without having to go to the exhibition. And I think that would be really interesting. There might be a much more video work, there might be much more digital work, because again, it's easier to develop, it's cheaper to use, and then the kind of physical practicalities you have in loading works. And actually, I'm hoping, from my perspective, there'll be a real interest in exhibition exhibitions supporting pop culture much more, or they're being a pop cultural element to find our exhibitions. Because in the same way, and the processes are the same with pop culture, items that fit into pop culture, or to the kind of sphere of pop culture generally, but they are generally cheaper to use to use to transport and they tend to be in personal collections rather than institution. So you can kind of circumvent a lot of the rules and difficulties you and cost you have with loaning them, you know, it's much easier to transport a record. Yeah, from Manchester to London than it is a, you know, massive painting. And so I hope that actually, in developing those ideas and institutions will be far more open to to exhibitions that investigate various spheres of pop culture and socio culture much more. And I think people are interested in learning about modern history. In that sense. I think there's a gap between think there's a gap in a lot of collections, and I think there's a gap in a lot of museum collections, which is something that I'm also interested in, I am working on and interested in, working with other people to kind of fill you know, that's it. There's a lot of a lot of pre war, documentation and collections, but people haven't really taken pop culture and people that people who were involved in pop culture and their archive and their roles and their business models and their, you know, processes are seriously. So I think there's a, I think there will be a drive in drive for kind of modern latter half of the 20th century to now to contemporary culture to be explored in in the exhibition sense. And I think in an art direction sense, again, with the areas that I work in, which is tends to be no music, I can't really comment on the sort of the business side of things, you know, the kind of commercial business side of things, because obviously, Art Direction design causes a massive area, but I think within I think within music, same I think people having to find new ways to monetize their work, and there's no gigs happening, which means there's no merge being sold, you know, people aren't turning up at gigs. So you've got to still make mirch. But how do you sell that to people? How do you communicate that to people? How do you what, what's the reason for them to buy it? And if you're going to do gigs, how are you going to do performances? How are you going to communicate? Those? How are you going to interact with people? How are you going to monetize that? Obviously, you might have seen recently, there's been the performances by Laura Marlin did one Nick Cave did did one in which, you know, that's the classic, that is really interesting, because that's a way that people are going to have to connect with their audience now. And actually, you know, there's not there's, there's not many, there's, there's no good things to come out of COVID, really, but people have had to think about how they continue to connect with people. And the huge the tech, the use of technology, which all of a sudden loads and loads of people are using, which they never heard of before. Yeah, tea, zoom, house party, whatever it might be. Yeah. Most most people 95 99% of the population never used these things before they were just into business. And, you know, systems that helped people collaborate, and then now everyone's using them. And what's great, what's really interesting about that, is people are starting to be creative with them. Yeah. And with their social media, and with the, with the things they talk about, and there'll be a strong political edge to a lot of these things as well, I think for sure, people have people have been sat at home for a long time. So they've, they've really engaged with a lot of the political movements that have come up, and they're not necessarily they're not new subjects, but they're new movements of maybe we focused or focused for the first time people's attention around, certainly around racism, certainly around, you know, political division trust in politics and politicians, and although the way that they represent those and look afterwards, I think that will be an interesting angle for some kind of social, you know, exhibitions and, and the way that people present the messages, they present in music as well, I think so. Yeah, I think I think the technology is will force people to well, and they are, I think they are forcing people to think about how they present their, their art to to their audience and to new audiences, while at the same time, in a purely practical sense, making money doing that, you know, and I think that's fine. I think people have to make, you know, everyone has to make money doing these things, you know, as long as they're not ripping people off, and they're not being, you know, you know, overtly kept capitalist about it. Everything isn't going to be for free. And I think that's, I do think that's a really interesting and me that people are going to have to kind of broach because I think one of the one of the things the Internet has done is offer up a lot of free content for people, and people then get used to not having to pay for things. That's exactly right. Yes. And now they're gonna have to learn that they are gonna have to pay for things again. And so it's what will happen is that the price will come down. So you can't I don't think you could charge people 25 pounds to go where you used to go to charge people I don't know anywhere between 25 and 150 pounds, whatever that being dollars to go to a gig. If you're setting your living room, I know that you can charge people that go through what the artist is still, to some extent, having a lot of the same costs. They're still got a crew they're still setting them all up. This got to be filmed instead of performed. So you've got to IRL company to do that you've got to really sit, but I just don't think they'll get away. So we don't know that it will cost as much as doing a big tour. But I don't think we can charge that. So they're gonna have to get used to charging five or 10 pounds for that. That that thing and find striking the balance between what's economically viable and what people are prepared to pay for. Yeah, same for exhibitions and same for same for the the worlds of music and film and literature and all that kind of stuff. You know, it's going to, that's going to be the interesting area.

Roy Sharples:

Mat - thank you so much for your insights and inspired story. For more inspirational conversations with creative industry experts on entrepreneurship, pop culture, art, music, film and fashion, please go to the unknown origins website at unknown origins.com