Christine O’Donnell is an Emmy-Nominated TV Journalist, Podcast Producer, professor, and the founder of Bright Sighted, a purpose-driven podcast consulting and production house. As seen in media outlets such as NBC, ABC, FOX, and CNN, Christine was also the very first guest on the Pitchin' and Sippin' Podcast.
In this episode, Christine and Lexie explore the process of finding and vetting quality podcasts to pitch that align with your business. Christine shares her insights on the evolution of the podcast industry, her favorite podcasting tools, and how to use them to discover shows that align with your business or goals in a specific niche.
Here’s what you’ll learn:
Social media links:
Resources:
Christine O’Donnell is an Emmy-Nominated TV Journalist, Podcast Producer, professor, and the founder of Bright Sighted, a purpose-driven podcast consulting and production house. As seen in media outlets such as NBC, ABC, FOX, and CNN, Christine was also the very first guest on the Pitchin' and Sippin' Podcast.
In this episode, Christine and Lexie explore the process of finding and vetting quality podcasts to pitch that align with your business. Christine shares her insights on the evolution of the podcast industry, her favorite podcasting tools, and how to use them to discover shows that align with your business or goals in a specific niche.
Here’s what you’ll learn:
Social media links:
Resources:
Lexie Smith
Christine O'Donnell is an Emmy nominated TV journalist, award winning Podcast Producer, professor and the founder of bright sided a purpose driven podcast consulting and production house. You may know Christine from her work in NBC station in Georgia news 10, ABC in Albany, Fox la in Los Angeles, NBC News Channel appearances on CNN or un, I think this is the biggest deal for being the pigeon and sipping podcast, first ever guest. So Christine, welcome officially back to the show.
Christine O'Donnell
I'm so happy to be here. Thank you so much for having me.
Lexie Smith
Guys. I have been really, really excited for this episode, because so much has freaking changed since the first time that Christina and I sat together on a zoom recording with our podcast mics for this show. I think it was, I don't know. 2020 20 Yeah, probably right. We're all just sending
Christine O'Donnell
maybe, yes, it was 2020. I was pregnant with Ava.
Lexie Smith
You were pregnant. Okay, so since then,
Christine O'Donnell
we actually turned three this summer.
Lexie Smith
I can't. Whoa, your business is booming. All the things. And guys, I'm going to point you back to Episode one to learn all about Christine's background. But where I want to bring us today is what is new business? What is new with you share?
Christine O'Donnell
What is new with the with my personal business about the podcast business on the whole you first. Okay, so what is new with me, I currently live in the same city that I grew up in, in upstate New York, which is kind of crazy for anyone who moved away for like 10 years and then moved back after 10 years. Like, it's just crazy, walking down the street and running into people who I went to high school with. And now they have like full on adult faces. And I have an adult face if it's like, whoa,
Lexie Smith
what's going on? Oh,
Christine O'Donnell
it's just so weird. But it's really bad. Actually, it's been a little bit of it taken a little time for me to feel comfortable being back home moving here from Los Angeles. But I think we're getting a little bit more settled, I thankfully, was able to get involved with the community and join some entrepreneurship, like co working community spaces, which has just helped me I think anytime that you are feeling a little bit lost and in a space, it's important to try and find where your people are. So that is something that I've done. And through that I have my business has grown. We have more clients now that we've ever had production clients. And we also launched like kind of soft launched a network over the summer. And we have three shows that are part of that network that are currently live. And I would say the niche like what we what we do there is we the bright side of network is about sharing stories from people who are fueling their dreams. So if you're somebody who is looking for inspiration to fuel your dreams, the shows on our network are something you should for sure, check out. We've got Olympians, we have entrepreneurs, we have barbers farmer's on her on our channel so so there's that I've opened a studio space in my downtown area and that actually just launched maybe a week ago. And then I got really sick which is so weird.
Lexie Smith
A lot or anything right?
Christine O'Donnell
And and I'm just bouncing back now I think today is the best I felt so it's good that we're connecting now.
Lexie Smith
Well, I would say I'm happy for you for all of those updates. I personally am still not thrilled that you left me to move all the way across the country. But you know, I'll get over it in a decade or so, but I'm super happy to have seen Seeing how you've grown and follow your dreams and guides. Christine is a dear friend, I'm just so excited. She's brilliant. So we're going to share a few different, we're going to go over a few different angles of the world of podcasting today, because once again, for you listening, you tend to be a mix of my fellow PR pros, other journalists and entrepreneurs, I want to make sure there's value for all of you, as always. So first and foremost, you guys have the best and biggest, biggest most expert, expert, biggest expert of the podcasting industry that I know. So Christine, what is your take any big updates or trends, or news that we all should know about relevant to the podcasting industry?
Christine O'Donnell
I think that the podcasting industry is in a really good place, especially for people like me. So if you are a storyteller, if you're an entrepreneur, if you are creating content right now, via podcasting, or, or other ways, like now is your time people. The data shows that people want this kind of content, they want on demand content from the people they want to listen to, when they want to listen to them. That is what we're seeing about listeners, I feel like if you can imagine Amazon going away, which I can't now, right, like we are so spoiled. I mean, I know that there's a dark side to Amazon, I do know that hopefully, there's not a dark side to the podcasting industry. But I mean, not now we're now we're starting to get like
Lexie Smith
the bright side, the loss
Christine O'Donnell
of philosophy, philosophical. But I just didn't saying I don't see the audience not wanting things when they want it, how they want it from who they want it. And if you're creating content that is audience focused, then you're in a really good place for growth. I think that there are large companies that have been in the industry who haven't quite maybe adapted as quickly as some of us indie production companies, or indie producers, just because it's harder for an entire corporation to adjust as fast as just one person or a small group of people can adjust to things changing or understanding the needs of the audience. And so we have seen some setbacks like from bigger companies in the industry. For example, Stitcher, which is an OG Listening service is closing its doors. And this podcast, I'm sure is on Stitcher. stitcher was is one of my favorite listening apps. That was before I really started mostly using Apple and Spotify. And so I think that's just what we're seeing here, as people are starting to feel very comfortable with their Listening service providers. And stitcher just isn't the one that people are going to people are going to Apple podcasts or Spotify, they're kind of leading the way still, and could just you know that Spotify has a relationships with the airlines. And so now when you go and fly a plane, you can instead of just like watching movies, you can listen to podcasts on Spotify, on the plane, whoever came up with that partnership, I know great partnerships. So I'm just saying, I don't see things going away, I think that content is going to continue to find a way to get to the audience how the audience wants it.
Lexie Smith
Great news for this show to continue on and pre show. Christine was sharing a few stats that I think are worth highlighting too. Even though this isn't necessarily an advertising show. When we talk about PR, we're looking at all the different ways you can grow or spread brand awareness or help visibility. And sometimes that means working with or considering advertising. And you've shared some stats on advertising with podcasts that I'd love for you to just share briefly.
Christine O'Donnell
Yeah, so if you're a podcaster, and you're looking to sell ad space within your podcast, even if you don't have the largest audience, you can still offer a very high quality product. And that's because podcast ads have a 54% conversion rate over any other other kind of ad out there. Podcast ads have a 54% conversion rate than any other kind of ad at a radio, TV, Billboard any other ad out there, which means that your ads have the ability to be so so powerful to brands to sponsors And that is something that you should absolutely embrace. I know sometimes it can feel hard to pitch, buying ad space in your podcast to companies. But a lot of brands out there with the right alignment, already have a budget for marketing, they're already looking to spend marketing dollars and they want to see a return on their investment. And so if you can even offer maybe say, like a three month package, but like the first month free, and so they can see what kind of return on investment, they'll get just by having an ad in your show. That can be really helpful. And I would start by selling ad space at $250 An ad
Lexie Smith
not to scroll too hard. But I did get approached for someone wanting to pay me for ad space on the show, and then turn them down just because I didn't feel like it was the right fit. But
Christine O'Donnell
that's important. You have to keep care about your audience.
Lexie Smith
I did. And I just was like, No, but I was like googling feverishly. Like how much time charge if I accept this, and then once a long conversation, but I think it's worth you guys hearing, as the worlds of marketing and PR and advertising continue to blend to know what what options are out there. And what is converting so 54% That's huge. Okay, so, yes, go.
Christine O'Donnell
I was gonna say and not just that, well, I just think monetization is so important. If you're a content creator, and you're always looking for ways to figure out how do I bring in money to my household. And so on top of selling ad space in your podcast, what what is the trend right now in the industry, and it's a new trend. So if you're not doing this yet, think of ways that you can perhaps do it. And that is activating a brand deal or sponsorship by throwing some sort of live event, whether it's a competition or a live recording somewhere there. So like maybe in your town, like perhaps depending on what your niche is, you can plan some sort of live recording somewhere. And whether it's a restaurant or just I don't know, like it could be a farmers market. There's so many different ways you could do it on your own little pop up and build more awareness for the brand you're sponsoring. Or you're partnering with for sponsorship dollars through an event activation. I feel like
Lexie Smith
you're adding to my to do list. Christine will put it on the 2024 season six To Do List
Christine O'Donnell
yes to be scheduled. This isn't a new thing. But it is something that I think your listeners should start like letting their creative juices think about.
Lexie Smith
Yeah, absolutely. Especially because partnerships too are such a big component of what we do. So I'm going to shift a little bit here, we're still talking podcast. But one of the questions I probably get asked the most by my PR coaching clients are different strategies or ways to discover podcasts, and lists build. And the caveat to that to discover the word worthies, the wrong word, worthwhile podcasts for their given niche. When I was researching kind of your own podcast, I saw that you did a whole episode on different tools in places that you can go to discover new podcasts. And so I'd love to just touch on that any strategies, tools, software's places people can go to discover who to pitch.
Christine O'Donnell
So I would say there's a couple different things that you can do. First off, what's your niche, and then type in the Google podcasts that speak to your niche, and whatever pops up on top of the Google is a very good place for you to start. I would say Google is still the top place for discoverability is people are still going to Google and asking it questions. And that's the number one place. Another place that's second to Google is YouTube. So type in your niche on YouTube and see who are the other people who are producing content in your niche on YouTube, because there's a lot of podcasts that are becoming, they're not really podcasts. Honestly, they're like video programs that people are calling video podcasts. The rule for something to be a podcast is it has to be an audio file that's downloadable. But that's kind of changing and people have decided to just be like, Oh yeah, I have a podcast but mine's on video only. So like I just I might not exist. actually be what you would necessarily think a podcast is. But that definition is getting a little bit blurred. And if your goal is just to get your story out there, I would go first Google second YouTube. And then third, I would go to Apple podcasts and search your niche and the apple podcast, search bar. Other tools that you could perhaps join, there's something that I'm a member, I'm a member of called the podcast, collab club. And I believe the fee is 1299 a month, and you can join it. And they there are weekly mixers that you can go to and pitch yourself to be a guest on other people's shows. There's Facebook groups, find a guest be a guest. That's actually how the podcast club club became into existence, because there was such a great Facebook group that so many people were participating in. So I think that's another place you can research.
Lexie Smith
So nominal tips. Also, I'm laughing because I think you know, you're a mom, when you start putting that in front of things. My mom would always say that tweeter, and you're like the Google, so fine sign of when you you've crossed over into motherhood when I do it too, when I say you know, the chipotle or something. But it is the Google. Yeah, I know. It's something that's so simple. But sometimes we forget, and sometimes it is that simple. So let's say you've rounded up 20 New shows that you've discovered through the methods you just shared, can you or how can you vet the quality of a given show? And by quality? I don't necessarily mean listening to the content, but listenership.
Christine O'Donnell
Okay, I've got a couple other tools that I'm going to mention outside of the Google. And like all of these search engines that I just mentioned, which I would say Google is a search engine. YouTube is a search engine, Apple podcast directory search engine. So those are all search engines. I'm going to shift to tools that have search engines built into them based specifically on podcasts. So listen, notes.com is a really powerful search engine, if you want to also discover the quality of the show that you're producing. So you can see enlisted notes after you type in a show that perhaps you found on the Google. And you can actually see if it has a ranking worldwide against other podcasts as to how popular it is, have a podcast to listen to. And you're looking at you would love, ideally shows that are still in production. And so you'll want to see is the show still producing episodes? And is this show something that has decent ratings. So ratings and reviews are also helpful tools to discover if a show is a quality show, because if ratings and reviews are still coming in, then you know that people are still caring about that show. Another helpful tool is charitable. So I am a member of charitable and charitable is very helpful when seeing like you can follow shows and see Oh, are they still getting reviews coming in? Something I like to do as a competitive person. And I think we can all be competitive because being competitive helps us be better, like competition can make things fun. So I like to follow shows or hosts or accounts that I am a competitor with and I want to see like how many new reviews are they getting? How many so I like go in and I'll claim their show. More than one people can claim the same show Lexie I follow your show. And so I can see like are they getting regular ratings? Are they getting regular reviews? Can I and then I get a monthly or I think actually like a weekly email so I can see. And like also shows that I've produced in the past that have like gone off to higher pastures or other pastures. I'm not gonna say greener. They've gone other places and I want to follow their success. Are they still doing well? Is there room for growth? Like is there a reason I should follow back up with them and be like, hey, sounds like you're in need of my services again. So yeah, I would definitely use charitable.
Lexie Smith
You know that I send out a community newsletter roundup every Tuesday chock full of resources, free media kit downloads, event invites journalists contacts, visibility opportunities, basic If you're not on the list, hit pause and sign up. It's super simple. Go to the PR bar inc.com/newsworthy That link is in the show notes. Okay, back to the show. So here's a question, especially now that you I know that you're kindly following in my show or death. So interestingly enough, I've seen my listens very steadily and rapidly increase. My reviews though, haven't necessarily so while my listenership has been growing, which I know, because I have the back end, my reviews haven't. Um, is there a way? For another? Again, if you're in the discovery mode for people to know, how the listenership is doing? Or is it just looking at the reviews gonna be indicative of how the show's doing, you can
Christine O'Donnell
kind of discover listenership through listening notes. So I'm gonna go to listen notes right now. And this is on YouTube as well. So I'm going to share my screen. Oh, as I do it,
Lexie Smith
I really need to do that that little button. There you go.
Christine O'Donnell
Okay, so I'm gonna go to lesson notes. To do I'm going to share my screen. And for those who are listening to this to do to do you can go to YouTube, and you can watch it and maybe we can, like turn this into a little Instagrammable video or something, where there's this share screen, but that's too long. Okay, so here we are on Listen, notes.com it says underneath it, the best podcast search engine. So here now that I've clicked in the search box, you can actually see what is trending. So it says here that Robert F. Kennedy Jr. is trending. Why is he trending? I don't know. I don't know what's going on in the in the news world. So I would look at these things and be like, are any of these things things that I can talk about in my shows? And if so, I should do that? Because that's what people are what's trending right now. Okay, okay, so I'm gonna search here Pichon. Award, and sipping with Lexie Smith. So if it doesn't pop up in listen notes, there's a problem. Okay. Okay. So it says here, your global rank is top 2%. So this is a very good number. So if I had to guess, you probably have about 1000 listeners every month coming back to listen to the same show. And it might be a little bit less than that a little bit more than that, but it might close.
Lexie Smith
Um, it's probably a little more, you're close.
Christine O'Donnell
Okay. Okay, maybe a little more than this. But this, if it's in the top 2%, then that means like, Okay, this show has some traction, there is more than 100 people listening to this show every month. It doesn't share the information on ratings. But you can also see, okay, latest episode came out today. Oh, and she provides a transcript, which is super important. If you're producing a podcast, you want to have a transcript of the episodes provided not only for accessibility purposes, but also for SEO purposes, because it's going to help your show be discovered by people who are typing in the Google. So it's very important.
Lexie Smith
Okay, rebrand to the Google that Google.
Christine O'Donnell
So yeah, this, it gives you some information, the update frequency is weekly, the average audio length is 31 minutes. So this knows like, I know what my product is going to be with your show. And we know that it's ongoing. So if we want to find let's see, this show has also they're giving me some recommendations here. So here are some other shows that probably have crossover audiences to your show Lexie. So this might be a good place for you to reach out to pitch yourself to be on those shows to even grow the listenership of this podcast even more
Lexie Smith
hot tip there, guys. That was really, really good. And I think if you're in the seat of pitching yourself, or pitching a client, right, if there's a show you've been on our show, you know, type it in and you can similarly use this strategy. What is listen score mean?
Christine O'Donnell
I never quite understood that one. Okay, here if we click in here, what is Lesson score? It's a metric that shows the estimated popularity of this podcasts compared to other RSS based public podcasts in the world on a scale from zero to 100. The higher the more popular calculated from first and third party data. This podcast is global ranked. This podcast is one of the top 2% most popular shows out there of 3,134,752 podcasts globally ranked by listen score, the estimated popularity score.
Lexie Smith
Well 39 doesn't sound so great, but 2% Sounds great.
Christine O'Donnell
It sure does.
Lexie Smith
Oh, okay, add it for for shits and gigs look up like how I built this.
Christine O'Donnell
There we go. This is what I do to compare mine to other shows that we know have very high downloads.
Lexie Smith
Sky Ross, so trying
Christine O'Donnell
different different people out how we built, isn't it how I built this, how I built this? Yes, there it is. Hi, Roz. So he's in the point zero 1%. Cocoa cocoa. He's also not an with an indie network. He's with wondery, which is a massive corporation that has its own very different kind of drama behind those closed doors. But they have significantly more money than most of us because it is a big corporation here. But guy is also a great talent. So I think before he was with wandering, he was with NPR and NPR and unfortunately did get some they've dealt with some bumps in the podcasting space. I believe they did some layoffs at the beginning of the year that made people scared about the state of the podcast industry, which they didn't really need to it's just there's their main product hasn't been podcasts. And so they have weren't able to adjust I think as fast as they needed to. But anyway, more and more hot
Lexie Smith
news news coming from there's I love I love hearing because you are such a journalist at heart, no matter how you evolve your business, you're always up to date, and I can I can hear it. So I think it's really cool. Because what you guys are seeing right now what we're hearing right now in real time, are different ways you can go about assessing the quality of a show. Now, my second question to that, Christine, is how, let's say, you know, we all wish we could be on how I built this, but you know, we all there's a process a ladder to step. Is there anything you can do when you're on a podcast to help that podcast perform better?
Christine O'Donnell
Is there anything that you as a guest can do when you are being interviewed on another podcast? To make that podcast performed better?
Lexie Smith
Yeah. So when your episode drops, Christine O'Donnell, what are you going to do? And best practice to make sure this episode does for you? I'm just using you as an example. does for you what you hope it does? How can you help it?
Christine O'Donnell
Well, I would say first off, the most important thing is to be real, authentic to think about the audience you're talking to. Always when you're going to be interviewed on another person's show, ask them who is the audience that you're talking to? So you can think about how what you're sharing will affect them? Will it help them? And what kind of service can you provide to the people listening? And so always just remember to ask the host, and the host is going to appreciate this so much. If you're like okay, now who's the audience we're speaking to today, just to kind of remind yourself because you might be doing a bit of a media tour, and it's just to keep yourself in the zone. And then after a podcast launches, hopefully, the host lets you know, but they might not they might be busy. I've been like shoot, I was up late editing last night and creating assets and it just went live and they just are so exhausted the next morning, they forget to tell you that it was it dropped. So I would just kind of keep an eye on that show. Perhaps you follow them on charitable so you can see when their episodes are launching subscribe, you could subscribe to the show. As a guest, you can also if you're a guest on someone else's show, leave a review for that show. Because the more reviews that that show has, the more likely listeners will find it. So if you're going to be on a podcast you view that show as well on both Apple and on Spotify. And then of course, share it with your audience where your audience is. Because remember, your audience cares mostly about you You. And I know this is hard for us all. Because we don't really like talking about ourselves. Or at least for me, this is a place where I struggle. I'm like, Oh, I really need to talk about this person or that person because they're way cooler than me. But then I'm always reminded when I look at analytics on my own social media, that people are way more interested in any photo, or any copy that is written that is from me about my life, rather than me raving about someone else that I love. So if there is a way for you to reshare, your experience on someone else's podcast that it's still like keeps you as the center focus, rather than the person, the podcasts that you were on, it will still be interesting to your audience.
Lexie Smith
Such a great point, actually, too for you guys, once again, if you're doing this yourself, or if you're a host, or if you're advising a client, something to think about, because we tend to get a lot of pressure. Or maybe the reason we're going after going on a podcast is so that new people can can learn about us so that our brand awareness grows. But you can also use that show as an effective way to nurture the very qualified audience you already have. And I think a lot of times, we're always looking for new people. If we want sales, like I need to find more people, when in reality, if you have 100 people following you, you already have 100 people who have at least to some capacity developed that know like and trust, they're going to likely convert a lot quicker than a complete stranger. So I think it's a really great thing to pause and highlight. Thank you, Christine.
Christine O'Donnell
You're You're welcome. And I would also say people like the relatable stuff. Like, it's so funny, the more like jokes you make about yourself, or the more you kind of accidentally, maybe share something that you meant to keep secret. People feel like they really know like, and trust you. For example, I was once joking around with my husband and like on a social media post. Because he can't flare his nostrils. Which can you? Yeah, I can I can do it. You could do it. Really good flaring my husband can't play his nostrils and I discovered this on a like story on Instagram. We're just like joking one day like being silly. And, and it just, I was teasing him because I'm like, you really can't. I didn't realize that was a thing that some people can't do. And so anyway, I was teasing him a little bit. And then I eventually got a client out of that, like, a week later. And I didn't know my client might what became my new client was like, Okay, I need to tell you why I finally decided to call you. And it's because of that flaring nostril video. Thank you, Steve. But it's just it's like the things that you that are the most you that people tend to enjoy.
Lexie Smith
I think it's a really a really great reminder. And you guys are starting to get a peek into how Christina nights conversations can quickly lead to like two hour phone calls. So I do want to before we wrap up, because as you saw and listen notes, we generally have a 31 minute average show length, I want to give an opportunity for you to speak to how people can work with you today. Yes, I gave a quick bio. But are you looking for new shows? Are you still consulting? What are the different ways anyone listening might be able to get a little bit more of your magic?
Christine O'Donnell
My magic or magic? Ooh, okay, so what am I doing currently? So currently, I am building my network. And I'm really focusing on high quality shows that are similar to the shows that I'm currently producing. And so if you have a story, or perhaps a podcast that you're already producing, or an overall vibe of your show, that is feel good, right? Like, what my network is born from is probably resilience. Like if you've been through something really difficult, and then found a way to turn it around, and now you're sharing your story through your podcast of your life through the difficulty that is. Now resilience, you're sharing your resilience with people and that's a lot of what make my shows so wonderful. And I can't even say my shows the host of my show, so wonderful, and that's what brings them all together. So if you're someone like that, and you have at least 1000 downloads is currently send me an email Christine at Bright sighted.com and we'll see if you're a good fit. I am looking to bring on more partner shows so we can continue to grow our network and bring in more ad dollars so that we can monetize as a whole. I love that podcasting has created a way for people to share their stories and also bring in money to their households.
Lexie Smith
Beautiful last question for you my friend. You asked this while ago, circa June 2023 What can we find you sip in these days?
Christine O'Donnell
Oh gosh. What can you find a good thing? I haven't been drinking lately. Oh water drinking a lot of water these days.
Lexie Smith
We get that answer so much. Straight water. Tap water. Sparkling water. Gas no gas.
Christine O'Donnell
Straight water.
Lexie Smith
straight straight water. There you hotter
Christine O'Donnell
no ice. Give me the water.
Lexie Smith
Lukewarm room temp.
Christine O'Donnell
Yes. Huh?
Lexie Smith
crashing. All right. Cool. I love your friend. Thanks for joining us again on the pigeon and sipping podcast.
Christine O'Donnell
Thanks for having me. Talk to you soon.
Lexie Smith
Hey guys, if you are enjoying the pigeon and sipping podcast, please do me a huge favor and leave a review wherever you are listening. If you want to connect with me to learn more about the PR bar Inc. You can do so on Instagram Act, the PR bar underscore Inc. Or you can check out my website at the PR bar inc.com Cheers