Restorative Justice as Spiritual Practice: Ruth Ifakemi Jeannoel on Grief, Community & Circlekeeping

Ruth Ifakemi Jeannoel returns to share the intimate journey behind her new book, Restorative Justice Practices: Circlekeeping for Community Healing. This conversation is rooted in grief, ancestry, and the deep practice of restorative justice as both strategy and spiritual path. We explore what it means to be a practitioner, a mother, an organizer, and a descendant—especially in times of personal and collective loss. This episode is for anyone navigating grief, building community, or holding space for transformation.

About Ruth
Ruth Ifakemi Jeannoel is a cultural organizer, circlekeeper, spiritual practitioner, and mother. She is the founder of Fanm Saj, where she uplifts healing justice and ancestral practices to build collective power in Black and brown communities. Her new book is an offering of tools, stories, and spiritual grounding for anyone practicing or curious about restorative justice and circlekeeping.

 Grab the Book
Restorative Justice Practices: Circlekeeping for Community Healing: https://www.ruthjeannoel.com/product-page/restorative-justice-practices-circle-keeping-for-community-healing

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Transcript

David 00:00

Ruth, welcome back. I want you to be known or reintroduced to people in the way that you want to be known here today. So who are you? 

Ruth 00:08

I am the daughter of Maurice Thompson, was my. My most recent ancestor. 

David 00:15

Who are you? 

Ruth 00:17

I am living and I am breathing, and I am on time. 

David 00:22

Who are you? 

Ruth 00:24

I am the descendants of Jean Jacques Dessalines. 

David 00:33

Who are you? 

Ruth 00:35

I am a mom, a partner, organizer. 

David 00:41

Who are you? 

Ruth 00:42

I'm a practitioner. I'm a practitioner of restorative justice appealing, of cultural organizing. 

David 00:50

Who are you? 

Ruth 00:51

I am an abundance. I am abundance of my ancestors. I'm abundance of my spirit guides. I am the past, I am the present, and I am the future. 

David 01:04

And finally, for now, who are you? 

Ruth 01:07

I am if I stand on the shoulders of my elders, and I stand also on the shoulders of young people who have taught me to bring joy and to bring laughter into the work that I do. 

David 01:24

And nowhere in there did you say, I am an author, which is really, really why we're here today. But we're going to unpack so many of those other things. But really excited to share that Ruth has a book out called Restorative Justice Practices Circle Keeping for Community Healing. And I'm sure in the introduction, you heard why some of those things are so important for her and why she is a really good messenger to carry this work right now. So before we jump into all that, to the extent that you want to answer the question on this moment in early June, afternoon for you, morning for me. How are you doing that? Your book is about to be out in the world in this way. 

Ruth 02:09

Yeah. David, thank you for having me again. I'm really, really grateful for us just reconnecting in this way. Yes, it's true. I am an author, y'. All. I am grateful to be in this way, work in this way. The how I'm doing, generally, I feel excited. You know, I feel excited, but I'm also, like, nervous at the same time because it's like another way, you know, one of the values and circles that we hold is, like, vulnerability, you know, so this is me being vulnerable to people who may or may not know me. They may or may not understand our ideology of, like, what restorative justice is. And so that vulnerability is met with a lot of excitement, you know, especially for the times that we're in now. And so the book is launched, Restorative Justice Practices Circle Keeping for Community Healing. It is launched. It launched in May for Haitian Heritage Month. And we're here, you know, where we're talking to different people we're doing some book signings, beginning to do some book tours, and holding circles for folks to be able to be in practice with each other. 

David 03:21

Yeah. And so we're going to talk a lot about the book today and about why it's important in this moment. But I think the thing that stands out to me initially is there are a lot of books about restorative justice out there. There are a lot of books about circle keeping out there. Why this book through you at this time? 

Ruth 03:40

Yeah. And so as it's so interesting because as like a practitioner. Right. It's true. Like, there's so many books out there. And this year makes marks 10 years since I've been training folks on circle keeping. And what that has meant for me is like, a lot of people have asked, like, oh, when they do a training, they're like, oh, do you have a manual? Do you have, like, a document? Do you have, like a book or something? And so for me, it's almost like this is the tool that we can now share. Right. And I think what makes this book really special to me and for those who will read it, is that it is a book that I started in 2020. I stopped and started again. I stopped and started again. And it's almost like I really completely stopped up until the transition of my mom. My mom made her transition last year, March 2024, and it was very much unexpected. She passed away from a heart attack and also stroke. We don't know which came first, but in the times and she was in. In Massachus, and in that time and in that period, it almost felt like, you know, we never know how we'll be. Like, matter of fact, I think I would want my mom to, like, be with me forever, you know, like, in a physical form. Like, I don't think, like, she transitioned at 70, you know, I don't think I would ever be ready even if she transitioned at like 80 or 90 or 100, you know, like, I think I would like, the transition of a parent is almost something that you can never be ready for, you know? But when she transitioned, I, you know, like, went into a cycle of. Of anger first. Right. Of frustration, of confusion, of also then asking myself, well, what's the type of leader that I want to be now? Right. Like, as I'm in my process of grief. And then a couple months after that, it almost felt like her. Her spirit came to me and was like, you have some uncompleted projects that you have not been doing, and the book and other things. But the book was and is one of them. And so she really pushed me to her spirit, really pushed me to write this book and finish it and complete it. Just in time for Haitian Heritage Month and just in time for Haitian Mother's Day. 

David 06:16

Yeah. When you first heard that message from her, how did you feel? 

Ruth 06:21

Yeah, I think when I first heard it, I was like, is this real? Even as somebody who's like, a practitioner and also, like a African. Like a practitioner of indigenous and African practices. Right. Like that, like, ancestral work, understanding, venigration of, like, our ancestors and our orishas and those who've come before us. But when I first heard it, I was like, ah, I want to cry. I want to lay in the bed. I don't know what you're talking about. Like, I want to, like. Like, I want to yell and scream. Like, I want to just. This was just the. The times that I was in, you know, and I also felt like it. It almost felt like this makes sense too, you know, because of the times that we're in right now of, like, really needing community, really needing to, like, lean on each other and really needing to, like, for me to show up in a different way, you know, and to be vulnerable even in my grief and being open to connect and share with others of, like, what this period of grief has meant for me, which I know grief is different from a lot of different people. Right. But for me, it almost felt like awakening a different awakening of myself and identifying a different type of relationship with my mom. 

David 07:42

Yeah. What had you stopped in 2022? 

Ruth 07:46

Yeah, I think parenting, like, not only am I, like, an organizer, and I hold circles for different people and all the things, but I'm also. I'm a mom, you know, Like, I have three children. I have a whole husband. Like, I have a whole family that I'm also raising. And 2022. Well, I. I was. I just had a baby, you know, I just had my. My. My youngest son, you know, and so it almost felt like while I was, like, writing and I stopped, it was like I had to prioritize what I wanted to birth, you know? You know, and what I wanted to nurture at that time, you know, and. And that pregnancy was not easy, you know, and even, like, him and. And him coming into Earthside was also not the easiest thing, you know, like, we spent a lot of time in the hospital, many different surgeries, spent a period of time in icu, and I had to recover, you know, like, my spirit and my body needed some time to. To recover, and I Prioritized that. I prioritized my health, in my baby's health. 

David 09:04

Yeah. I mean, and not only that, right? Here we are two years later and what it takes to be a mom, specifically, because I know that's different as a. As a dad. Right. Like, I do a lot, and I know being a mom is different in the way that one. The toll on your body. 

Ruth 09:21

Yeah. 

David 09:23

First of all. But also, this is treading lightly into stereotypes, but, like, there's just a different level of care that moms think about than. Than dads do, at least from my experience in the dynamic with my wife and I. But really, it's just so relatable about what the last couple years have been like for me. And when I think about you saying, like, I heard the columns, like, is this for me? Like, I've doubted, like, whether or not, like, this platform can continue to exist just because of the way that it has not, like, financially sustained my family in the ways that it's needed to. And so, like, links to engage and support in the description are wherever you're listening to this. Right. But, you know, in my explorations into doing other work or working in other conditions, like, the message that I've always gotten back is like, no, this isn't for you. You have a unique position and message to carry. And so, like, when I hear you taking that message from your mom and be resistant to it initially, and it's like, oh, no, this actually makes sense. This is what I need to do. And, like, this is going to be hard, but I'm going to do it. It's like, right there, right there. And, you know, what takes you from lying on your bed to getting up, putting pen to paper, or, I don't know, fingers to keyboard on blank Google Doc and keep going. 

Ruth 10:53

Wow, that is true. That. That's. You were asking really good questions, David, because I'm like, oh, my God. Like, you would find me after my mom transitioned in March. Like, I of course, had to do a lot of, like, her, like, her stuff, you know, like, kind of going through her, like, paperwork, going through the house, going through, like, her personal items, and her spirit would just come to me, and then her spirit would come to me, and then other people would come to me and be like, hey, Ruth, I heard you doing this thing. And I'm like, how did you know? You know, it's like, for people who are, like, wondering or who are like, this is not real. Like, ancestors are not real. Like, this is where I get challenged. You know, I'm like, actually like, my most recent ancestors supported me through this. Literally coming through people to tell me about myself, you know, in particularly like my. One of my. My godmother Ifawi, my. One of my mentors, Joey and like, Diff and even like young people, right? Different people would come to me, but it was like in the middle of the night is when my mom's spirit would come. So, like, if I'm. If I'm like, kind of like sobbing or in my grief, what it has looked like is either it goes from like, joy to sadness through anger, you know, like, just like kind of feeling all of that out. But it wasn't until I came into acceptance of, like, this is what it is. And that took. That took time. And it's still like, I'm still kind of getting over that hump, you know, of like, acceptance. When I came into acceptance was when my. My spirit. My spirit in my body came up and was like, would wake up in the middle of the night and like two, three o' clock in the morning, like, I'm writing. It was both. It was a little bit of both. It was like writing and journals, kind of picking back up of like, what I had in, like Google Docs, my training materials, the reflection questions that I was in with in trainings or workshops or with our youth programming at FromSage. And then it began, like, it be like the waking up in the middle of the night was like the writing in the constructing, you know, and then I think like, the. The tail end of like, finalizing and publishing it came also at a time of like, oh my goodness, like, there's a hope. There's a lot going on in the world, you know, and so me recognizing that, like, this book is coming out at a time where folks are really needing and are grieving a lot, right? Like, that I'm grieving my mom, but folks are grieving loss and a lot different ways, you know, and so. But that's really what kind of got me over that hump, you know, of like, waking up in the middle of the night, having folks kind of like, check in on me and hold me accountable to like, I heard you're doing this. I saw you doing this and then to now publishing it, and folks being like, well, how else can we get this out to our communities? 

David 14:10

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And I think about making sure that, like, you're doing it from a place of acceptance instead of resistance, like, comes like, if you're doing it from a place of like, resistance that's gonna come through in the writing yeah, right. And doing it from a place of acceptance and energy and, like, answering the call from your community. 

Ruth 14:29

Yeah. 

David 14:30

And ancestors. Right. I don't think the book could have been any other way. And, you know, making sure that, like, now that this resource story, manual of sorts. Like, I don't know that you would call it a manual. Right. But, like, instructions for how to be in community. A guide for how to be in community. It's now here out in the world. And, you know, I know others have given you your flowers and applauded, but I just want to take a moment and say, like, you know, you did it. 

Ruth 15:01

Yeah. Thank you. 

David 15:02

Let's be. Let's be proud of that. Of course, more to come. But, like, when you sit and think about, hey, mom, like, I did it. 

Ruth 15:09

Yeah, right. 

David 15:11

What does that feel like? 

Ruth 15:13

I get emotional. Like, I cry. I listen to music. The music that she listens to. Like, just this weekend, we had, like, for the last couple of weekends, we just had, like, a healing justice summit where we had folks, like, local. Over 200 people came and participated in different circles and healing practices. And it brought me a lot of joy, but it also brought me a lot of, like, wow, like, we've done this, you know, like, doing this. And I had, like, a book talk during that. That event and that gathering, and folks are, like, so ready for it, you know, that it makes me. It makes me, like, just feel like, ah, I get. I'm like, oof. You know, the fact that I feel proud, you know, like, I get emotional, but I feel proud ultimately of myself, because I'm making my mom proud, you know, and I've said, like, I've. I've said yes to her. Her first. Her first request on the other side, you know, I've said yes to that. And that makes me feel like, that I'm still in relationship with her, you know, that I'm able to still stay connected with her, even her on the other side, you know? So, um. But I. I am deeply grateful that I have community, you know? Like, I'm deeply grateful that I'm. I have community and that I'm able to be a practitioner. But, like, I'm also at this. This stance of humility, you know, like, that there's so much more to learn and to gather and that I don't have to do it by myself, you know? So, yeah, thank you for. 

David 17:02

For going there and sharing that. I'm recognizing. As I'm asking you these questions, I'm really, like, projecting, like, my inability to, like, sit in emotions it's like, this is a good practice. And, like, I know it's not the same, like, doing it with you, but, like, I'm recognizing, like, my need as someone who is really achievement oriented and driven to be, like, great, onto the next. Yeah, we did it. But now we have this training. Let's keep it pushing, Keep it pushing. Let's keep it moving. But, like, I have a hard time more in my personal life than professionally doing this work or in, like, because, like, when I'm locked into this, where it's like, okay, yeah, we're going to sit here, we're going to create the space and process. So, like, in my life as David, navigating the universe, like, feelings. What feelings? Right? Like, there are diapers to change, meals to cook, social copy to be written. Right. Emails to write, like, deliverables for a PD or whatever it is to do. Why sit in feelings? And that acknowledgement of those things, both for pride and celebration as well as grief, are really, really important. And as I'm saying, this is just a message to myself, but thank you for going on this journey alongside. 

Ruth 18:18

Yeah, it's true. It makes me wonder, like, as. Like a. As, like, practitioners, it's almost like we have so much that we hold. You know, we hold other people's stories, we hold other people's, like, stuff, you know, but, like, as practitioners, it's like we hold our emotions too, you know, like, and how do we, like, hold the boundaries but then also feel, like, how do we allow ourselves to also feel? And grief definitely does that. Grief. There's no. It's almost like, like, I'm not. I told myself that I'm not hiding and running from my grief because this is my mom, you know, Like, I've told my. I'm like, oh, yeah, like, I'm definitely gonna be honoring her. But, like, when those feelings come, like. And as a spiritualist, like, I know I. I know that, like, I embody like, like, or orishas or my ancestors, they try my. They try their best to, like, help me to embody this, like, wisdom of understanding what transitions. Actually, when those emotions come, like, they come. They come in tears. Sometimes they come in anger. And when they come in anger, folks be like, whoa, like, you're supposed to be on this pedestal and this. And I'm like, nah. Like, I'm a human being, you know, I hurt too. And I, too, have, like, emotions. And grief is something that is a. A navigating, you know, it, like, doesn't go away, but it's like, how Do I navigate it today or hold it or release it? 

David 19:48

And then how are you being held by community when those things happen? Right. Because I think one of the things that, you know, you, as a parent of young kids grieve is like, the loss of community in the way that our ancestors had it. 

Ruth 20:03

Yeah, right. 

David 20:05

And just in the way that we're thinking about navigating community today, where my kid is sick and can't go to daycare, it's a call to my mom to come over and. And help out. So one, I can do this, my wife can go do work. But, like, how fortunate are we to be able to have my mom a phone call away to step in when, like, not everybody has that. That would have been. It would have been sacrificing either my work or my wife's work. And, you know, in other circumstances, we would happily do that. But, like, we don't have all of those support system. And, you know, we didn't come here to talk about the need for, like, extended family leave, parental leave, but when we think about, like, how we are held in community as practitioners, as, like, not people on a pedestal, but as people who have purpose and are seen as, I'll say, healers, you can use other words to describe what we do. Healers, teachers, guides. We are still people with needs. 

Ruth 21:09

Yeah, right. 

David 21:11

And, you know, when you're talking about an expression of anger coming in the moment, out of context for, like, whoever's receiving that, like, that might be jarring and because they do not know the context. Because you're not in community in that way, specifically. Right. 

Ruth 21:25

Yeah. 

David 21:25

Like, well, I thought you were supposed to be this super restorative, spiritual person. Right. And that's damaging for everybody. Right. When we are not taken care of, when we are not both taking care of ourselves and like, being supported by. 

Ruth 21:38

The environments we're a part of, no shame that's real. 

David 21:43

When I think about making sure that you are supported in the ways or practitioners in general are supported in the ways that feel good. What does support look like for people engaging with this book? What do you want them to know? What is some of the context that you want them to know about what you're presenting? Right. Because this isn't a read it. Okay. I know everything about restorative justice and circle keeping. How do you want people to engage? How are you inviting people to engage? 

Ruth 22:14

Ashe. So I had to. I'm pulling out the book so that way folks can like, really understand. Right. That for me, like, the journey of this book. Right. Was first Birthed from grief, right? So this book was birthed from grief, and not just any grief, but, like, my apparent grief, right? And so for me, the why. The why now is like, very much grounded in my. The why now is like, my mom asked me to do this, right? Asked me to finish something. And I want people to, like, read it and understand that the book itself is a circle, right? I want people to understand and have a relationship of what is their organizing, right? Like, what does their community organizing look like in relationship with either restorative justice as a strategy, healing justice as a strategy, transformative justice as a strategy to complement the call to action for their community. The book itself is grounded in my own organizing, my own understanding of how I entered this work. I tell folks I share how I got into this work through the Power Youth center for Social Change, through understanding, organizing young people, creating space for young people to, like, show up in the world, right? But then learning from them gave me an opportunity to, like, also. It gave me an opportunity to also sit with. Why would somebody read this? And if they want to be a circle keeper, whether or not they want to be a circle keeper or not, and let's say they're just like a community organizer that hasn't heard about restorative justice, that I would want them to say, okay, here's a journey of as a practitioner, you know, like, I would want them to say, okay, here's like, an example of, like, how you can enter whether you're a organizer, a lawyer, a nurse, a doctor, like a community servant, whatever role that you have, Here's a journey. And I would want them to, like, kind of picture themselves in that, right? Kind of like, be like, ah, like, whatever role that I hold, how can I hold circles? Right? How can I be in alignment? And then taking folks through, like, understanding the grounding of, like, spirituality and elements. What are the elements of circles? Like, how do we kind of understand circle of like, the. This continuum of like, whether you're in a physical, physical circle or outside of the circle. Like, how are we also holding those guidelines and those values and those elements outside of the circle to connect back to ourselves and connect back to nature, right? And then treat each other with, like, dignity and respect. And then I close the book out with some case studies on, like, how I use circles in different ways. And so it's an invitation. The book itself is an invitation. It's in different languages. So I have, like, Haitian, especially like Haitian Creole and Yoruba in there as a way to, like, affirm that my Lineage, Right. Comes from like Haitian and West African lineage of like this as a tool, not just as an indigenous practice, but African practice too. 

David 25:35

Yeah. And I think when, oh, just a couple clarifications. When you said elements, are you talking like talking piece, centerpiece, beginning or like earth, air, water, fire. 

Ruth 25:47

Elements. Elements of earth, fire, wind, water. If, when I do the editing again of this because you know, I'm a, I'm an artist too. I'm a artist. So I'm like, oh, I could say this differently. I could say that. So when that comes, comes I'm going to add the element of iron, you know. But elements in that way is in the book. Guidelines are also in the book too. Like the, the guidelines like the Speak from the heart, listen from the heart, speak with respect, listen with respect, confidentiality remain in the circle and respecting the talking piece. So our guidelines are like also in the book with reflection questions. 

David 26:28

Gotcha. Gotcha. Yeah. I'm curious, you know, speaking to the case studies, I think a lot of people think about incidents of conflict and harm which definitely come up in organizing spaces and community spaces really wherever people are in relationships, people also think about circles for check ins and community building. What are the kind of case studies that you're sharing in in the book? You know, I guess you shared them in the book. So like appropriate confidentiality has already been taken. 

Ruth 26:57

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So like the, the ones. And I. And I have four of them. So there's like case studies for how we use circles for harm reduction. Right. For like transformative justice, how circles are used for like transformative justice or community accountability. Accountability processes. I also have circle keeping for community building. Like how like a case study on specifically of like when there's like a time to do community building, like this is how we. That I've hoped held circle, you know. And then I also have a case study on healing justice. Right. Healing justice as it relates to like lineage. Right. And understanding like what does it mean to like reclaim, reclaim our culture, reclaim our language. And that specifically is like related to like my experience in holding circles in Nigeria as like a reclamation that literally as like a reclamation but also work that I had to do and was honored to do to support the transition of my, my mom. Right. Like after her transition and doing ceremony and then also circle keeping as a process and tool for restorative human resources and restorative HR and utilizing it again as like a process within non profits or for profits or organizations to like sustain themselves. 

David 28:25

Yeah, I mean I think there are lots of different Purposes that we can use this framework of circles, peacemaking circles, talking circles, whatever language, your lineage and your teacher, you, listener, have become familiar with these ways. But I really think it's important to show those concrete examples about how, one, how flexible the form is, and two, like, it is a form, there is a framework, There is, like, intentional practice set up behind all of them, and it should be carried with care and not just, hey, circle up, Here's a talking piece. Let's go. There are positive things that can come from that, no doubt. But how do you do that with intention, from a grounded space is really important. What is something that you haven't talked about on your book tour that exists in the book that you've wanted to highlight? 

Ruth 29:21

I haven't yet found time, which I know I. I'm sure this is gonna happen, but I haven't found time yet to talk about the grounding of, like. What's in the book is like. Like, I'm an IFA practitioner, right? Like, I am. Like, that is my specific lineage, right? Healing and practitional. And IFA is an African spiritual practice of, like, understanding, like, the past, present, and future. And what is in the book is, like, understanding how, like, this practice of ifa, which is like, a very much indigenous African practice of, like, understanding our relationship with ourselves, understanding our relationship with our ancestors and those that are coming after us, right? How does circle keeping fit into ifa? Right? I was in the tradition. I was. I. I was in the tradition doing circle keeping, but even me and myself, like, an understanding, like, peacekeeping, it's almost like I had to, like, understand myself a little bit more to understand, like, what does it mean to be a practitioner of peace? What does it mean to be a practitioner. Practitioner of justice? What does it mean to be a practitioner of like. Of healing, right? And the. The. There's a orisha called Obatala. Obatala is Orisha. That is the oldest orisha. Orishas are like deities or divine beings that are on. That have been on earth and that they've transcend, transcended to like, to become what we call orishas, right? And Obatala is the oldest, most wise orisha. And. And this particular orisha is the deity that governs, that governs me. And understanding that whether or not somebody has. Somebody may be listening to this. And they're like, I don't know what you're talking about. I don't know who Obata is. I don't know what IFA is. But for me, as, like, a writer, and as a practitioner, I had to understand myself a little bit more to understand, like, what is my practice. Right. And so Obata Lab, being the peacekeeper, the most wise, the one that, like, other issues go to, when something is happening in their lives or in the society, it's only right that I. I like, speak on, like, the governance of what it means to, like, carry and be at peace with nature. What does it mean to be at peace with consciousness? What does it mean to be at peace with all of these injustices that we're. We're seeing? And how do we make restoration and repair. Right. And then. Or transform what cannot be repaired, you know? And Obatala is like the deity that governs all of that. In fact, Obatala is the one that governs all human beings, consciousness and minds, whether people know it or not. Right. So for me, it's like an invitation to also talk about ifa, to talk about the spiritual practice and how I'm using it, how I'm using IFA and circle keeping and the energies of, like, past, present and future all at the same time for. For social justice, for social change, for, like, restorative justice. Right. Or for transformative justice. And I hope that when people read this, that it again, becomes like, a practice, you know, like they are able to be in practice if they don't already have a practice. 

David 33:01

Yeah. I'm curious how you think about people who most of your readers, I imagine, aren't coming from the perspective of ifa. 

Ruth 33:09

Yeah. 

David 33:09

I'm coming from the perspective of, like, no longer Christian. 

Ruth 33:12

Yeah. 

David 33:13

And I do not have specific frameworks. How about how I engage in the world, in the spiritual realm? I believe in, like, the deep interconnection between all beings. Right. But I don't have, like, specific frameworks for that. I was taught peacekeeping circles through an indigenous, Native American, Canadian perspective. Right. Tagish people from Lakota people, in some ways from, like, Nahua in Mexican traditions. And so when I think about grounding people in that level of practice and then asking them to go do this for hr. Right. Or asking them even to do this in the classroom, we're asking them to do this. Like, hey, we're organizing to get a community center in our space. Like, what is the place for spirituality when the practitioner does not necessarily have that developed practice for themselves? 

Ruth 34:10

Yeah. Okay. Yeah. And it's. Everything is like an invitation, right? Like, everything. Even, like, entering circle, we ask for consent. Right. We hold a lot of kind of like, one on one conversations that we ask folks consent throughout a circle. Process, right? One of the things that we, one of the things that we have to ground ourselves in is that each person that we encounter is a spiritual being, right? And they are in human form. And so from that when we come into circle, that itself is a spiritual practice, right? Like that in itself is the practice of how do I understand what has happened, right? Wherever people are, whether they're in a school or non profit, whichever, how do we enter as a practitioner to listen to that, to what has happened and also understanding the person's need, right? And not just like what we need for like accountability, right? But I talk about this in the, in the book too, of like, not only around like accountability, but like ultimately, what is it that your spirit needs, right? And answering that question of like, what ultimately is your purpose? What are you here to do? Especially when you've been hurt, you've been harmed, there's been conflict. It's almost like you can get all, you can get as many accountability things. You could be like, all right, I want this person to do this, I want this community to do that. I want this to happen. I want that to happen. I want the community to hold it in this way. Like, so what happens if none of those things happen? What happens if the people who are wanting, who you want accountability from are not ready? Like, what happens? Right? So then that's when we tap into like this practice of circles, this practice of like, spirit is like that ultimately we still have a relationship to spirit, to be, and we have accountability to ourselves, right? Like we ultimately still have accountability to like heal ourselves, heal our ancestors, heal those who've come before us. And it's when we're in circle that we're able to like really understand that, you know, why? Because we have the talking piece and we're able to like answer that question. Even if the question, the only question that we ask is like, what do you need? You go a couple of rounds and you share and you share outside of that and we get into our, from not just from our minds but to our heart, then we're able to really like be in like acceptance of like, what does that mean for us? You know, like, what is, what does that need? What, what fuels our spirit? What feels our body, what fuels it, right? And then it reminds us of like, oh yeah, like I have a spirit. I haven't, I have needs like outside of like these systems. Like, this is what my spirit needs, right? This is what I'm here to do or whatever it is, you know, but that the, the pieces that we get to process in circle, you know, like, processing that helps us to be accountable to our healing and hopefully we could be transformed by it, you know? 

David 37:24

Yeah. And, like, it's an invitation for, like, not everyone will go there. And I'm thinking about, like, even the. But the practice, the. The responsibility of the keeper in that space is to create the environment where that invitation is welcome. 

Ruth 37:39

Yeah, right. 

David 37:40

Like, where people feel safe enough to. Safe enough. Not like, safe safe, but, like, safe enough. 

Ruth 37:45

Yeah. 

David 37:46

To go there and engage to whatever level they're willing to go to when it comes to, like, a simple question, a very deep and penetrating question, if they're willing to go there about, like, what do you need? 

Ruth 37:59

Yeah, right. 

David 38:01

Because I think about moments with. With young people, but I think young people are really just people just walking around in younger bodies. Like, we as adults, like, have layers of understanding about the world, but, like, still, like, often engage in the world with that childlike mentality. If you ask a kid, like, in the moment of harm, like, they have not regulated enough, they have not felt safe enough, comfortable enough with you, safe enough or comfortable with their peers to share, like, what is actually going on. They might not have the emotional vocabulary. 

Ruth 38:39

Right. 

David 38:39

They might not have the depth of understanding. The same thing is true for, like, many adults. Yeah, Right. But like, our job as practitioners, as keepers of circle, creators of this, I like to say, vulnerageous space, vulner, vulnerable, courageous. Is to allow people to go there and support them in developing some of that language. 

Ruth 38:59

Yeah. Ashe. Ashe. Yeah. 

David 39:03

You talked about this book being a response to grief, but I know as part of our conversation before we hit record, you were also talking about, you know, grief for individuals who might be experiencing the loss of a parent. Grief for individuals who are experiencing loss in lots of different ways. But what else makes this book a response to the moment that we're sitting here in the spring, almost summer of 2025. 

Ruth 39:33

Yeah. I mean, yeah. It's the grief of understanding that there's a whole genocide happening right now. Right. Like, there's. There's a whole. And there are families that are mourning every single day. Right. There is this collective grief of, like, in the United States that folks understand the. The way that we do movement is through these non profits. Right. Through, like, social justice movement building is through non profits, at least in this part of the world. Right. On. In these United States of America. Right. And, like, what we're seeing is, like, there's like, this, like, decimation of, like, funding and resources, and folks are like, Scrambling of, like, well, what. How we're building, what are we doing, right? And then also individually, like, folks are, like, having real complex relationships with. With each other, you know, and like, that. Whether it's, like, different political ideology of understanding what is. And this is this. It's not. It's more than political lines, right? And so I think that this book is birthed at a time where we need to understand who our communities are, right? We need to know who we are. We need to understand, like, that actually building our communities, regardless of, like, what systems exist, like, we can do that. We can. We have the spirit self. We have the human self. We. We can take that level of action to say, let me talk to my neighbor. Let me. Like, it doesn't. I live in Florida. It doesn't have to be a crisis. It doesn't have to be a hurricane for me to connect with my neighbor, right? It doesn't have to be, like, the. Whatever political line people are on, like, to talk to or to connect with a community organization, right? June 2, the day that this is being recorded, in early spring, late summer, right? There's also, like, hundreds and thousands of immigrants that are being deported, right? There's also, like, all of these policies that our folks are, like, needing to, like, navigate of. Like, how do I actually take care of my family right now? What are the resources that I need? Like, people are, like, I. I don't know what you're talking about. I don't know what healing looks like. I need community. I need this resource. I need legal support. I need. I need food. I need diapers. I need to protect myself. I need whatever it is that they need, right? Tangible needs. So why not have my invitation in? The invitation for this book is, like, create space to build community, right? Create space to name, to understand. Okay? This is what's happening in my community. These are the things that we need. And how can we be responsive to the needs of our communities? And, of course, like, harm and conflict is, like, part of that, right? But if we could do that in a place that's, like, very much, like, grounded in, like, care of mutual aid, of empathy, of understanding, like, compassion. We know, like, of, like, we don't see each other as, like, human beings, as spiritual beings, then the way that we respond will not just be about political alignment, you know, but it'll be about, like, oh, yeah, like, this is how I treat my neighbor or treat my community with, like, human dignity, right? And I think that's, for me, like, that's why circles are, like, so Important is that it helps us to rehumanize ourselves. Right. Like, people could come into circle. They don't have to give you your. Their title, their position, their role. They could come in as a young person, the elder. Every person who comes into circle has wisdom to share. Right. And so what are the opportunities where we can create space for people to share their wisdom with each other? 

David 43:45

Yeah, yeah. I mean, as much as the request or the need for, like, material resources exist, you know, you can get those through capitalism, some of them. And most of us hearing our voices right now don't have the capital to meet all of those needs. So what do we have left? We have community, and maybe we don't have community right now that can be responsive to those needs. So how do we go about creating it? Intentionally inviting folks into those spaces. And that is scary, Right. Putting yourself out there. And I'll speak for myself. I know my neighbors to my left and right, but not necessarily so left and right, two houses, right. But not necessarily across the street in the same way, not around the block. And so what does it mean to be able to create those opportunities, to connect? What does that look like for you? 

Ruth 44:38

Yeah, so I think for me, right now, it looks like talking to as many people as possible about this book. Matter of fact, I saw one of my neighbors across the street. He had a trust Black woman shirt. And I didn't even know that he was trusting black women in that way. Right. Because that's a campaign, right? Like, trust me, Black women is a campaign. And so I think for me, what it currently looks like is like, tapping into understanding, like, what my current needs are, where it's like to build. To build community, to go through, to continue to go through and navigate, like, my grief, right? To develop, like, pods of, like, okay, who all can support with whatever areas of my family needs and my. The organization I run from, Saga's needs and also connecting with my neighbors. Right? Like, having these kind of conversations and circles, not just in other communities that I serve, but, like, inviting my own neighbors to be part of these conversations, too. So that way they can know what I do and I know what they do, and that we're able to, like, really connect in deeper ways. You know, I will say that one of the things that I. Comes up for me when you ask this question is this thing around, like, contradictions. You know, there's also, like, the contradictions that exist of, like, living in, like, a materialistic, capitalistic, like, world. It's like. And like, putting this book out, it's like, how do I do that in a way that's also principled in alignment with my values? And so, like, vulnerability is one of those contradictions of, like, how do I also practice these values even when I'm in conflict? Right. Or even when I'm the one that causes harm. Right. Like, how do I actually also step into that and not hold myself or at least kind of, like, be in this, like, conversation with folks to understand? Like, just because I'm a Circle Keeper practitioner and I've written this book doesn't mean that I fall out. Like, I'm like, I fall in and out, right? Of, like, what does it mean to be a practitioner? And that's what it. That's the whole thing is that, like, we're not perfect, right? We're trying to figure out our emotions. We're developing and redeveloping our wisdom constantly, you know? And in some ways, this. This book is holding me to it because I get to, like, be in reflection with community members around this book. 

David 47:17

Yeah. I want to go back to part of what you talked about when you're talking about inviting your neighbors to these conversations. What did that look like at the beginning? 

Ruth 47:28

So currently, what that looks like is doing, like, I want to do circles with my neighbors, right? Like that, like, doing circles. But for now, or what it's currently look like is getting to know them, you know, like, my children hanging out with their children, us doing, like, some of my neighbors do, like, movie nights. If I'm doing something here, then we'll invite them here. My neighbors. I live in Florida. My neighbors are not all in the same kind of, like, class, gender, political ideology as me, Right? Like that, like, I live in Florida. And what in the part of Florida that, like, I live is every people are. It's very. Everybody's different. But what I see that's happening is that when there's a need, everybody comes through. Like, we're in. Like, we just entered hurricane season, for example. You need your shutters put up. Everybody's there. Like, folks are, like, sharing resources. Folks, like, all right, this is what I have. This is what I don't have, and this is what I need. Like, those are the moments of, like, crisis, you know? And so as being here and building this, like, community here, it's almost like I get an opportunity to, like, hold circle before, right? Or like, when there's no crisis, you know? And so. But it just looks like getting to know people, you know, on, like, an individual basis. 

David 49:01

No, I mean, I was just curious, like, one of the things I talked to my wife about is, like, we bought a, like, a little jumper water slide thing for, like, little, little kids. 

Ruth 49:12

Yeah. 

David 49:12

Because like, our kids birthdays are, like, kind of close together. So, like, are we really gonna rent this thing, you know, with it twice within the same month? And we're like, no, let's just buy it. And like, you know, what would it look like to, like, run around to the neighbor kids and be like, hey, just come over. Yeah. And I think, like, one of the things that I run into with that and, like, I've already seen it is like, the distrust that parents have of other people just because of, like, the way that we've been socialized. Like, it's different from when you and I grew up. 

Ruth 49:43

Yeah. 

David 49:44

Like, go play. 

Ruth 49:45

Yeah, right. 

David 49:46

Our parents would just like, kick us out the door and like, okay, see you later. 

Ruth 49:49

Yeah. 

David 49:52

And, you know, part of that is just showing up over and over and building trust in that way. But, like, it. I'm thinking about for myself, like, how difficult, like, even that level of engagement is in the socio political, cultural times that we exist in. 

Ruth 50:08

Yeah, yeah, it's true. But I do think. Yeah, you're right. Like, it's almost like the trust building. It's like organizing 101. Right. Like, it's relationship building, the trust building. Like, because I'm thinking of, like, we did like, a mini. Like, when it's like Kwanzaa season or like the end of the year, like winter holiday season, we try to do things for, like, our family. And then I invite. We invite, like, our neighbors, too. And I remember one of the days we invited some of the neighbors of our, like, the children to come, and they were, like, ready to be part of it. We did, like, the. The day was Cujo Chakalia, which is self determination. That's the principle of Kwanzaa. And we had, like, my children and some of the neighbors. Children to come. But I was like. And we talk. We did. We did song. We did song. And we talked about the principles of Kwanzaa and we talked about the red, black and green flag and, like, what it means, you know, but, like, I'm thinking of, like, that. That. That would not have been possible to do if, like, our children, like, we didn't know each other, you know, like. Yeah, like, that would not have been possible to do. 

David 51:14

Are these other black children? 

Ruth 51:15

Yeah, yeah, yeah. 

David 51:16

Oh, okay. 

Ruth 51:17

Okay. 

David 51:17

I mean, like, it's level. There's levels to this, like, even within, like, even in black community. Like, think about, like, I don't live in a black community. Like almost everybody around me is Mexican, right? And so like what is, what are the levels of like you're doing what, like you're lighting candles, like, to who? This isn't, this isn't the church, right? 

Ruth 51:38

That's so true. That's so true. Because like for example, that, that felt like east school. Because they are like, I think we had the relationship with the parents, you know, people know me, they know what I do, you know, which is like connected to for example, my, one of my other neighbors, she's an herbalist, you know, and her, she's, she has a whole garden. So my youngest, my three year old, he like. And we don't have like kind of closed gates, you know, so we could like share our yard. And so he'll walk into her yard and she has a whole sanctuary like, like in there, right? So she has like a small pond and like herbs and trees and all the things. And he'll walk in there and I'm like, wow, like this is such a beautiful like experience, you know. And, but now, now he's in school, like he's in like a daycare. So he has limit. He doesn't have as much time to like kind of wander, you know. But even just having that, that, that relationship with neighbors of like if, if my child wanders and goes there, like they're okay with it, you know, like they're like oh, like. And that too is like again, we're not in circle, but it's like us having like that principle of like, oh, like there's this thing in nature that my child is like connecting to and my, and my neighbor is okay with that. I think, I think generally she's pretty cool regardless, you know. But I think again, it takes that level of like relationship of like these people are not going to come and like, I don't know, tear my trees down or like hurt my plants or hurt the, the fish in the small pond, you know, but that they're here to like connect, you know, or like, and that's, that's a level of respect that I hold or that they, that we hold outside of circle, you know. So if and when I invite them to join a circle, they already know a little bit of who I am, you know, they already know like the values that I, that I hold or I try my best to hold. 

David 53:35

How do you explain to people what. 

Ruth 53:36

You do, you know, who I had to. That's a good question. Like, who I had because like, let. 

David 53:42

Me contextualize my Question. 

Ruth 53:44

Right? 

David 53:44

Because, like, I tell people that I. When most of the time when people ask, I'm really not trying to have a conversation. 

Ruth 53:51

Yeah. 

David 53:52

So, so part of it is like, oh, like, school and organizational leadership around issues of like, conflict and relationship building. And like, people will usually drop it after that. Right? Because, like, how do you explain what it is we do? Like, a version of what do I do is like, I'm a podcaster, right? Like, but I think there's this fear, like, one. So there's definitely a level of like, I'm really not trying to have like this full conversation right now, but there's also this fear of, like, am I really gonna, like, step into an argument about abolition right now? Or, like, colonization or imperialism? Right. Like, I, I did not come here to do that. I came here to just say, like, what's up? Hey, it's cool that our kids are at soccer practice. Right? 

Ruth 54:41

Right. 

David 54:42

And like, how much is that preventing me from actually connecting with people in, like, for who I am and like, the way that I show up in the world? And so when you say that, like, your neighbor, your neighbor, like, knows what you do, like, how did you actually tell them? Yeah, like, what you do from, like, Ruth, not from, like, oh, I'm the executive director of xyz. 

Ruth 55:03

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I, I think this is a really good question because. So, for example, although my, my principle, right? Like, I believe that the world exists before I live in the south, right? But before there was any type of policing, we existed as one, right? Like, we were able to, like, be in the world. 

David 55:27

I know there's a lot of fear for myself in, like, actually sharing who I am and what I do beyond, like, oh, I run this company, I host this podcast, I do professional development. I facilitate conflict. It's about the way that David moves through the world. And when I see my neighbors with their blue lives matter flags, like, there's fear on my end of, like, am I really going to have a conversation about abolition when I'm talking about building and strengthening relationships, related equity and trust so we can repair harm without having to deal with all of that? How do you think about introducing yourself in ways that are expansive of, you know, who you are? Not just like, oh, I'm the executive director of such and such organization and I'm an author and like, all these things. 

Ruth 56:14

Yeah, that's so true. Like, it's so interesting because, like, for me, as like a spiritual being, right, As a practitioner, I, I always, well, in my organizing and understanding, like, my political theory and understanding, like through political education, all of that and how I've arrived is like, what does the world look like, right, without policing? Right. Like, and I live in the south and I've had to like, answer that question and have had to been like, curious of like, what does it look like in a world where we're not penalizing and putting people out, throwing people away or somebody made a mistake and we're like, okay, we need to police the, we need to do this, we need to do that, we need to do this. Right? And for me, I've had to imagine with others and with my community to like sit with like, what does a world without police look like? You know, and in Florida, in the south, policing was not, didn't exist for like, it's just, it's newer, right? Like, policing exists as, as slave catching, right. Like, as a tool to like catch slaves in the South. And so coming from that perspective, when I meet people, that's not the first thing that I say. Yeah, that's not the first thing. Can you imagine? Like, and I live in, you know, in Florida, I live in the South. And so the political ideology, even if somebody's on the red, they're still, they're on the blue, they're on the red. Like they kind of flip flop based off of like, like who's in power and who's in perceived power and who's running for office and whatever. But in a lot of ways I show up, I introduce myself first just by the who I am, right? Like what I carry. So I come in, I'm already a dark skinned black woman, right? But I rock my natural hair. Sometimes I rock like head wraps. And so oftentimes people will already have an idea or they already have or place judgment on me even before I open my mouth, right? 

David 58:22

Sure. 

Ruth 58:23

So when, but when I open my mouth, I, I remind people or I introduce myself first as a mom, right? Like, as somebody who like genuinely cares about the well being of children because I myself have children, right? As somebody who cares about our environment as nature, right. As somebody who's like kind of like, well, what can we do to make this world a better place? Because how it currently is, is like if we have these children and we're raising them and we want them to live in safe and healthy communities, like that's what I do. So the type of work, so then I'll tell people, like, well, the type of work that I do is like conflict resolution or peacekeeping or trying to get people to like build relationships and build community. Right. And I know, know my principle, you know, like, I know that at the end of the day, my imagination that I want to be in with people is like, how can we be in self determination? And what does the world look like where we are free from violence, free from harm, free. Free from conflict and that we're able to, in a lot of ways govern ourselves? Right. Like, what does that look like? Right. And giving folks an opportunity to like, be and hopefully be in relationship with me on that. 

David 59:43

Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think, like, taking it down to the things that are maybe most accessible but also like, easy to find common ground on is helpful because, like, the explicit manifestation of what does it look like to live in a world where we are safe, where our children are safe. 

Ruth 1:00:03

Exactly. 

David 1:00:04

Looks very different to different people, depending on, you know, how you were socialized and what you, what you believe about the world. But connecting on, like, well, being of children is. Is a really helpful framing that I might like, slip into. Yeah, slip into my introduction. 

Ruth 1:00:23

Yeah, because you have children. 

David 1:00:24

You know, like, I do. Right. And like, I do. And I think there's a way that, that can be disingenuous. Right. It was like, I have kids, of course I want. Because, like, not that people, I guess, like, because people can use the same energy and like, I wouldn't even call it disingenuous, but like, that's not always the uniting thing that like, you might think it is because people can use the same energy to be like. And that's why we need to ban all these books in schools. 

Ruth 1:00:51

Right. 

David 1:00:53

But to humanize yourself as somebody who does care about children and figuring out, like, what ways care exists, safety exists in the second conversation or like, you know, a few layers deeper in the conversation. And getting to know somebody can be helpful. 

Ruth 1:01:11

Yeah, A shame. 

David 1:01:13

Well, we've gone through a rollicking conversation talking about your book, talking about where we are in the world. Of course, the things. Of course your book will be linked in the description or summary of wherever you're watching or listening to this conversation. But what else do you want to leave the people with? 

Ruth 1:01:32

Yeah, I want to. I want to leave people with something from the book and for people to kind of like, look forward to. So I want to leave some reflection questions that are in the book. And these reflection questions are coming from chapter 14, which is. This is where we go into case studies. This particular case study is around healing justice circles in Nigeria. And the questions, the reflection questions that I have for folks listening is what is like, what first? Like, what is Your own healing lineage, you know, like, what is. Like, as you enter circles, as you enter this book, what is your own lineage? Right? Like, I would like for folks to, like, sit with, like, what brings them to this book, right? Like, what's their lineage? Like, what the ancestry is? Or how did they first learn or hear about restorative justice practices, even if the first time that they heard about it is through listening to the podcast. And so some questions that I would ask folks to imagine is like, what healing activities do you know now? And how could you use them in community circles? How can you make a space that respects different languages and cultures in your gatherings? And where would you like to hold healing circles and what do you want to achieve from them? Right? And so healing justice is a strategy. Circle keeping is part of that strategy of like, enacting, like, healing and justice in our communities, right? And somebody. It's true, like, once you read this book, you're not. Once you read a book, you get information, but it doesn't make you automatically a circle keeper, right? But it's an invitation to then be. To get trained, right? Like, to become part of a community, to build a community. The, the thing is, we're in circles all the time, you know, like, we're holding circles all the time. But to really receive training or to workshop it or to figure out, like, elements and principles of, like, the, to hold the integrity of it is like the invitation that I would ask folks to be and is to, if you, if you don't have a practice appealing of practicing conflict resolution, of harm reduction, have circle keeping be that tool. Right? And have circle keeping be that practice for you. And if you're looking to build a community, start with your family, start with your neighbors, and connect with the organization that's also trying to bring about not just like change in alternative building. Right, with circle keeping, but like change in systems too. 

David 1:04:35

Absolutely, absolutely. Well, really, thank you so much. There are lots of ways that people can connect with your work through Fraja through famnsaj and directly through your website for trainings and all of that. All that information is again, in the description or summary of wherever you're watching and. Or listening to this. Until next time, take care. And for those listening, go build the world that we want to live in. 

Ruth 1:05:01

Ashe, thank you.