Speaking Out Cost Me Everything: A Conversation on Shame, Burnout, and Worthiness w/ Michelle MiJung Kim

What happens when you speak out for justice and its costs you everything?

In this raw and intimate conversation, Michelle MiJung Kim (author of The Wake Up and host of I Feel That Way Too) joins us to explore the aftermath of speaking up for Palestine in a world that often punishes courage.

We explore:

• Losing clients and credibility after speaking up for Palestine
• Grieving the collapse of a once-successful career and public identity
• Shame, silence, and the tension between self-love and social impact
• Navigating burnout, belonging, and friendship ruptures in justice spaces
• Rebuilding worthiness outside of productivity and applause

Whether you’ve ever felt lost, unworthy, or unsure how to show up, you’re not alone. This conversation is for you.

Listen to Michelle’s podcast: I Feel That Way Too –https://www.ifeelthatwaytoo.com/
Read The Wake Up: https://www.michellemijungkim.com/book
Connect with Amplify RJ: https://amplifyrj.com/links

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Transcript

David 00:00

Michelle, welcome. It's been a long time since you've been on these airwaves. A lot has changed. And so I want you to introduce yourself in the way that you want to be known to this audience today by asking you the questions, who are you? Seven times. So, Michelle, who are you? 

Michelle 00:18

You know, this is always the trickiest thing for me to answer because I have so many. I contain multitudes. But I would like to introduce myself to your audience as someone who is creating a new podcast called I Feel that Way Too. And asking tricky questions about life and wanting to explore courage and community together. That's sort of been the through line of my life over the last, I want to say a decade is. Has. Has been around courageous and community and complexity. So I think that sums up my work and my life. 

David 01:01

Who are you? 

Michelle 01:02

Well, I am also a Korean American queer person who immigrated to this country when I was 13. And I all my lived experiences and identities inform the way that I exist in this world and the way that I do my work. So that's a huge part of who I am. My Asian identity, my Korean American identity, my queer identity, my being a CIS woman, and now also someone who is in my mid end of late 30s, mid end of mid 30s, let's call it that. Having all kinds of existential questioning about my life and my career. So that's another part of my identity that I think has been a latest add on. 

David 02:00

Who are you? 

Michelle 02:02

I'm a writer. I'm an author. I write to process, and I write to connect with people. 

David 02:10

Who are you? 

Michelle 02:12

I'm a cat mom. I have two adorable wild orange cats who I adore, and they've been a huge source of joy and grounding for me. 

David 02:27

Who are you? 

Michelle 02:29

I am a daughter. I am a daughter of two immigrants. I am a partner and a wife. I am a sister and an auntie. Lately, I've been calling myself earnest millennial, because a lot of folks that I hang out with who are Gen Z or even other millennials say you're just a really earnest person. And I don't know if that's a compliment, but yeah, I do tend to be quite earnest and sincere in everything that I do. 

David 03:06

I imagine that relatable to everyone who's listening to this, especially in this audience. But I'm not supposed to interrupt, just who are you? Two more who are you? 

Michelle 03:14

I am someone who is a work in progress, grappling with what it means to be human, who is also trying her best to heal while connecting with other folks who are also in the process of healing. 

David 03:35

And finally for now, who are you? 

Michelle 03:38

I am someone who is a little bit lost right now, who is searching for clarity, answers and a new type of foundation and world that I want to be a part of. 

David 03:58

All things. Maybe not all, but so many things that are in there. We'll get into. Thank you for sharing yourself in that way to the extent that you want to answer the question on this sunny July mid morning, how are you? 

Michelle 04:17

I mean all the things I feel like I'm constantly oscillating between just complete despair and watching in horror everything that's happening in the world. And I also find pockets of joy that really ground me and I've been feeling both incredibly enraged but also hopeful, if I can say that, and grateful for the communities that I've been in connection with these days. So I'm all those things. Yeah, that's how I've been navigating. And I'm both tired and energized. It's all the paradoxical contradictions I feel every single day in every minute in my body, which has been also kind. 

David 05:07

Of disorienting here today we're not going to talk about the litany of things that are giving us stress and anger and rage and you know, we as people who give a shit are connected to communities who are actively working towards stopping some of those things from happening. And there is like hope and connection and energizing from that. But I want to know like what is giving you joy in the small things like outside of that for me, right, Like I took my kid to the park this morning and it was the workers at the park, like these 50 year old guys were like actually playing on the playground, like spinning around and like engaging with my little kid. It was like yes, this is, this is what I needed this morning. What is giving you joy like that? 

Michelle 05:54

I mean I have a few silly things. I have picked up knitting as a new hobby so I've been getting a lot of joy just looking at different patterns and I'm currently knitting a sweater for the first time. So that's been a source of joy. And I also have been going to vocal lessons so I sing with people and that's been really fun. And yeah, those are two of my hobbies that have been giving me joy. 

David 06:23

Right. And I think making time for either noticing the little day to day things or actively engaging in things that giving us life in the midst of like all the organizing, the activism, the work, the day to day grind of survival and early stage capitalism, like are important to highlight so like people remember to do them. Like, so we remember to do them. I had to be dragged into taking a pre planned family vacation a couple weekends ago just because, like, shit is going down here in so many ways and I don't feel the need to, like, I didn't feel the ability to go. And like talking to community and people are like, no go. Like, we've got this. Like, like the work will continue while you're gone. Come back on Monday. Right? And like those, those reminders are important. All of that brings us to what feels important to update this audience about, like, what's been going on for you? 

Michelle 07:20

I mean, what has been going on for me since the last time we chatted? I mean, you brought up some of the things I have been really focused on talking about, the things that have been impacting me deeply as a person, as a human being existing on this earth. And the, the issue that has really transformed my entire life is Palestine. So I've been really active in trying to advocate for, for Palestine for the last couple of years. I can't believe it's been that long. And I sunset my company Awaken that I poured everything into for four and a half years and decided to sunset it because it just felt like it was no longer serving me. And in a way that was nourishing. And the small bits of misalignment just felt like it was getting bigger and bigger to a point where I was really unwell mentally and physically. So I sunset it without telling anybody because I think there was a lot that I needed to process privately. So I only recently announced it to my newsletter people years after I actually sunset it. And then I went through a period of just feeling really lost where I had multiple years of being what I would consider a very successful public speaker. And even without the company that I was running, I was being invited to big stages to talk about my book and my perspective on dei. And then all of that evaporated when I started talking about Palestine online. And that kind of revealed a lot for me. Not only what the systems and the institutions that I was celebrated in were not ready for or were not permitting in their spaces to be spoken about, but also within me how much of my identity was dependent on those institutions and their validation for my work and my value. So when all of that went away, I was kind of at a loss and I was very, very depressed. I started SSRI for the first time. Hey, we're caring for our mental health and all the ways that we can. And I was also then fortunate enough to find a friend who helped me to put together this beautiful project that is the podcast. I feel that way. That is a slightly different direction than what I was used to in terms of doing institutional DEI consulting work, to just putting out the most honest, raw stories of my life. I mean, it just launched. And to me, out of all the projects that I've put out into the world, all the writing that I've done, this is the most vulnerable, courageous, and honest thing I've ever put out. So for that, I'm incredibly proud of the work that I've put in. 

David 10:48

From what you just shared, like, there are details about, like, almost every step of that journey. And I feel that way too. I mean, specifically in the episode about, like, who am I without my job? You detail like, a little bit more about, like, what the experience has, like, been speaking out about Palestine and, like, business evaporating since then. Folks, go listen to that. But I'm curious, like, if you'd be willing to share some of the things that specifically you experienced, right? Because it wasn't just that, like, hey, here's my career where I get this external validation. I get paid. I have built community around this. I've been connected to lots of different people around this, but I. It's almost like a death, right? Like, when you stand on principles, part of your world was no longer around. Like, what was that experience? Like, how were you impacted? 

Michelle 11:39

I mean, it really impacted every aspect of who I was and who I thought I was. For me, the external validation and specifically institutional validation was a huge part of my identity in that I. For my. For the majority of my career, I think one of the skills that I prided myself about was that I could say my truths and stay in alignment with my values and remain in integrity in these spaces that demand that I do not without getting kicked out. You know, I think I. I was praised by DEI practitioners, my peers, but also social justice folks who thought that I was doing the best that I can to not dilute the work of social justice inside corporations, inside tech, inside these conglomerates, right? And I. I think I was really disappointed and hurt and felt a personal level betrayal when people thought that Palestine was the line for them. That somehow my being consistent with my values, with my hopes for the world, and my sort of integrity, somehow that was crossing the line and that was jarring for me to experience. And I think for. For a while, I think I was in denial that people were going to come around or that, you know, this is not going to be forever, but that hasn't happened yet. And I think the level of disconnect that I felt every time I received an email that said, oh, we're so sorry, we have to cancel the contract because of your public stance. Some people were really clear about the things that I had said, that it was causing me to be fired. Like, I have an email from someone ahead of DEI saying that they can no longer honor my contract that they had signed because I posted from the river to the sea, Palestine will be free. And they consider that to be an anti Semitic phrase. So I think imagine this happening to the majority of clients that I had and hearing and also being cast as someone who was being anti Semitic, which is also in opposition to my deeply held values and the way that I saw myself. So I think there were so many moments of me feeling not only misunderstood, but just enraged at the things that were happening in mass and not only to me, but so many other people who were speaking out on behalf of Palestinians. Yeah, it was a really disorienting time. And I think that it also enabled me to really reckon with the part of me that I've been feeding for a long time, to feel safe, to feel accepted, to feel like I belonged and for me to let go begrudgingly. The parts of me that I always thought was such a huge part of my identity. 

David 15:21

You named, like, the need of belonging just now. And when that is taken away, like, where do you go to find community? Right? What did that look like for you? Because one of the things that you said, like, who am I? Like, I'm lost, right? And, like, that's relatable in, like, slightly different but, like, very real ways to me. And I'm sure many other people listening, lost, like, not being rooted in a place where, like, you feel like you can be yourself, speak your truth, and belong. And when you had a sense of belonging from the work that you'd been doing for the last decade, right? That void. Like, how did you fill that void? Or how are you working to fill that void? 

Michelle 16:09

Yeah, I mean, I talked to Kelsey Blackwell, who's a somatic coach in the podcast, and this is a question that she asked me. Like, how do you fill that void? And, you know, I think the. The answer that comes to mind very quickly is, like, oh, my friends, my community, right? Like, they make me feel like I belong. They make me feel love, they make me feel whole. And I. I recognize that I'm also searching for other people to make me feel whole when I feel rejected by these institutions and that's been the pattern in me is that like my, my sort of orientation is I need to feel like I am valued, that I am wanted, that I am relevant by someone, some entity, whether it's my friends, my community, my followers, my clients. And I think what I really needed to sit with, and I'm still continuing to practice this with myself, is how do I find that belonging within me, how do I find that sturdiness within me without having to go to any sort of external entities that are outside of me because those things will always shift. But I also, I struggle with that also because of my values around community and not individualism. So I think there's some contradictions here, but I think at the baseline before I, I think that they need to coexist for me, I think that's the practice that I'm trying to do because that piece around self acceptance, self love, self worthiness and knowing that I belong to myself and that I am whole without any external validation has been missing for so long that for me in that equation that was lacking while I was getting, you know, all kinds of validation and love from my community, it still felt like a bottomless pit. So that's the part that I'm working towards filling. That's the void that I'm tending to the most and really thinking about my, all the selves that I embody that inhabit within me that I think about like my younger self to the, the girl boss self that built that company and the one that's feeling really scared because of scarcity mindset and you know, there's just so many different parts of me that I need to tend to, to let those parts of me know that I'm going to be okay and that we will get through this together and that we know to call on the people that we love who care for us when we really need them. So I think it's been a sort of multi layered ways of filling the void in a way that is in alignment with my values but also something that I have to do on my own because not all parts of the healing work can be done by other people. 

David 19:32

For me, yeah, I'm doing an intense amount of individual work too. And the contradictions you're naming between self, love, do I love myself and the need for external validation because we value community. It is so real. Yesterday I facilitated a space for the 31 days of restorative justice practice. Sign up link in the description of wherever you're watching or listening to this, right? But and in that space, like it was a beautiful space that I got to hold for so many people and like lots of external validation there. And like I named the people. Like I see myself like smiling uncontrollably. My face is hurting because like I am in purpose, like this is what I do and I am of service to my community. And in those moments I can feel self love, right? Because I am in relationship to my community in a good way. And like it's not even necessarily that they're words of affirmation are like giving me life. It's like the actual doing of things. But when you can't do the thing that you know, like you do so well, like speak and inspire right for you. And like I have not been able to operate in the world the same way that I used to in 2020 and 2021 because I'm a parent of two young kids. Like it's been really hard to feel that idea of love. And I don't think that I'm unlovable, but I do think that like my worth and my value is tied to what I'm able to do for people. And so like the ability to like look myself in this camera right now or in the mirror and say like, I love this guy is a day to day struggle. 

Michelle 21:15

Yeah. 

David 21:15

I'm curious if there are somatic or other practices that you have that are helpful for yourself. Because I'm struggling here. 

Michelle 21:23

I mean that is so real. And I don't, I don't. If you find one, let me know. I mean there are just so many different practices that I know people do, right? Like whether it's meditating, whether it's journaling, whether it's therapy or walking in nature. There's just so many practices that we can lean on to center ourselves, to be present with ourselves and to sit in that feeling of disconnection and the longing for that love and praise, that feeling needed feeling like you have created an impact for other people. And I think that's another thing that it's like for a lot of people who have a 9 to 5 job who that's not related to their social purpose, their, their social justice purpose or broader community impact. I think that's a little bit different. Like when I was working in tech or management consulting as a full time worker, it wasn't that I needed to be impactful, right? But somehow because my work has been revolving around community and social impact work, it almost makes me feel like what, what am I useful for if I'm actually not making a difference? If I'm Not. And the validation from the community part is actually a really important aspect of doing this work. Well. Right. Like it doesn't matter if we're just doing stuff, if it's not actually landing in a way that people in marginalized communities need. That's something that we teach. Right. Like intention. Intention versus impact. And it's like that two way feedback is so important. It's not that I'm just pumping out content for the sake of making content. It's that I want to be an advocate. I want to write something that resonates with people so that they feel more seen. So I think untangling that from my self worth has been really hard. That even when I am not making an impact, that is visible, that is felt through my body, that somehow that doesn't negate my need for belonging. That my. And that doesn't negate my inherent worthiness and my inherent connectedness to all other beings. That's been. That's a daily reminder that I also have to make for myself. And it's not. I haven't, like I said in my intro, I have not figured it out. Like, I am swimming in this with you. 

David 24:13

Yeah. I would say, do you believe it? Because, like, it sounds right, but I have a hard time believing that. 

Michelle 24:19

Right, right. No, I believe it. I believe it and I. It makes sense in my head. But do I feel it? Do I feel it in my body to a point where I am not spiraling out of control? Right. Like today, yesterday was a bad day for me. At a down day, I felt like, yeah, I'm really proud of this podcast. But are enough people listening to it? Will we be able to get more funding to be able to do another season? I. I don't know what door will open from this. Do I need to look for a job? 

David 24:54

Yeah. 

Michelle 24:55

Right. Like I am sp. Spiraling here. And so this morning I woke up and I was like, you know what? I haven't journaled in a minute and let me just write some stuff down. And I think, I don't know what that practice is for you, but for me is I journal. And then if that doesn't work, I call my friends to kind of put things into perspective for me. Right. That, and it's easy for me to start spiraling just looking at what is true on the screen today. But when I start to zoom out and start to look at what it took me to get to where I am today, that helps me to feel a little bit more grounded. That the things that I'm looking at are like the metrics and the numbers and the people who are subscribing versus not subscribing, people who are unsubscribing from my newsletter, people who are right. Like these people who are unfollowing me. Like, all these things are. That are making me anxious in the moment right now. But then I also think about, okay, well, let's put things into perspective. It took me a year and a half to make this podcast. It's been three weeks since we launched it, so let me calm down a little bit. But more than that, the things that I was able to do, do in the making of this podcast, the healing work that I've been able to do within myself, the healing work that I've been able to do with my mom, the healing work that I've been able to do with my partner and my friend that I had a rupture with, all because of this project that created that container within which we. I can do that healing work that's been so precious, right? So I. It's so easy for me to lose sight of all these things. And, you know, I'm. All the things that I have also put out over the last decade, that's not for nothing that I'm not. I'm not cons. I'm like. I think the thing that I have to remind myself is like, I cannot fall into this vortex that has been created by, like, Meta and Instagram and, you know, LinkedIn, where everything that we post just kind of disappears into a vacuum and. And now we have to start all over again because people don't remember all the shit that we did in the past, right? But how do I not fall into that trap of momentary satisfaction, the momentary relevance that is so fleeting that I'm always trying to catch up with, that I'm trying to not fall behind, but root myself in all the work that I have done, not just putting up a carousel on Instagram, but, like, the real sort of deep work that I've been doing within myself and in my life, right? So that's been helpful for me. So that's something that I constantly have to come back to is around the journey, like, how far I've come actually, and what I've been able to gain. And what Kelsey talks about. The. The finite self that is, of course, worried about the bills, of course worried about all the things that are happening in the world and the very practical realities that we are living in that also coexist and that also. That has a dedicated time for me to spiral About. And I, I do work around just brainstorming with friends who are in similar spaces or really thinking about strategically how I can design my life in a way that feels a little bit more in alignment but also will give me the relief that I'm looking for in terms of those very practical concerns around scarcity and money and things like that. So I think just trying to find the right balance so that I can keep doing the thing that I love and think about what's going to give me that relief so that I'm not spiraling to a point where I am in a paralysis. 

David 29:05

Yeah, I think so many of those things, same things. And I think, you know, one of the things to name at least for myself and I imagine somewhat similar for you, like, we have partners who like, also make money. And so that's like, been a little bit like, it's given like cushion to be able to process some of those things. And the privilege of that was like, no, we needed to find jobs yesterday isn't the thing. And don't get me wrong, I'm still job searching. And if you're looking for people who are, and if you're someone in an organization who's looking for restorative justice, specific work, getting rid of disposability culture and punitive culture, holla at your boy. But when we think about, yeah, like, the work that we're doing for ourselves is valuable, right? The work that you're doing with your mom is valuable. You detail a lot of that. The podcast, you detail like, hey, are we friends if we politically disagree? In the episode that released yesterday at time of recording, and, you know, some of what you spoke about in that episode is what had me hesitant to reach out to you because as someone who has not been vocal on Instagram specifically about Palestine, I see things not necessarily from you specifically, but I see things from people in our space. Let's see that. Say, if you don't express your values about Palestine in this way, you're really not about this life. I'm like, oh, shit. Well, I guess I'm not about this life if that's what you think of me. Are we in relationship? And when I hear that as probably a well intended call out or call into action, the impact of that framing is isolating punitive and disposable. And so like, I shared with you, like when I first texted you, like, hey, like, can we do this? And like, you were like, yeah, totally, you're the homie. I was like, oh, shoot. Like, are we friends? Even though we haven't, like, had this divide. And I know the relationship that you and I have is not the same as the relationship that you detailed in the podcast, but I wanted to share that and hear your reaction and maybe get an answer to that question. 

Michelle 31:26

That's what you meant. I had no idea. I had no idea. I'm curious what went through your mind around, like, when you said it was hard for you to reach out, what went through your mind? What were you afraid of? And I also want to learn a little bit about what made you because you said I didn't know what prevented you from talking about Palestine online. 

David 31:53

Yeah. What ultimately prompted me to send it is like, the worst that's going to happen is, like, the most likely outcome is I'm going to get ghosted or get left unread. That's probably what's going to happen. And I can live with that outcome. It's very unlikely that I'll get, like, a rejection that will make me feel bad and then like, so it's worth the risk. Why? I was not very active speaking on Palestine, like, in my words, for a couple reasons. One, like, from my perspective, from what I understand, there's nobody in my audience who, like, needs to be made aware of, like, what's happening. And like, who am I to, like, share my uninformed, like, not, like, on the ground and as informed opinions and analysis on something that, like, lots of other people are talking about in a good way. And so, like, I've shared, like, stories, but I did not produce content around that. I also wasn't producing content a lot anyway because of the mental creative drain that, like, parenting two kids under three is. And, like, that's been a struggle for me in my business. And, like, I got stuck in and I'm still, like, working through, like, the perfectionism of, like, I need to put out this content that leads to this funnel that leads to this offer. And like, I don't want to just, like, put content out for, like, content sake. And until, like, I had those things in place, I didn't feel that that was right. I see how that's flawed and it's where I was in, in the time. But those are the primary reasons. Like, I was saying, like, if people, when I talk about restorative justice through a lens of abolition, anti racism and decolonization, it's very clear and people reach out to me to work with me in those specific ways. When I did a lot of outbound outreach to people who were like, oh, you think about DEI and justice issues Want to talk about restorative justice? Almost every single cold outreach. No, I would say 100% of the cold outreach calls that I had were like, oh, no, that's not what we were thinking about. It's like, oh, okay, cool. So this needs to be based off of attraction, not about, like, hey, let me teach you about restorative justice through this lens to get you to understand that this might be beneficial for your organization or company, not that you're ready to go. Because what I'm talking about is not dei. What I'm talking about is ultimately, in a lot of ways, horizontalizing your organization, like, flattening power and being accountable on. On that level. If folks haven't thought a lot about, like, Israel, Palestine in that way, like, they're probably not ready to do that. So, like, that's why, like. Like, I wasn't making that risk. It wasn't for fear of, like, loss in that way. It's like, one. Like, I don't know that I'm contributing significantly, and, like, I don't have my shit together enough to, like, be out there in those ways right now. 

Michelle 34:43

That's good to know. Thank you for sharing that. What about the, I guess, Persona that I have online made you hesitate to reach out? 

David 34:56

We have had, like, a personal interaction once, right? Like. Like, all of our other interactions have been, like, professional. And so it wasn't so much about your Persona. It's like, do we have enough, like, relational capital to like, make this ask? Like, I asked it at a time when I knew it would be professionally beneficial for you. So, like, I was protecting myself in that. But it's like, we got Boba and hung out, and, like, it was, like, a really good time, but that was, like, three, four years ago. 

Michelle 35:27

Yeah. 

David 35:27

And with, like, is this gonna be worth her time? Like, that's why I was saying, like, most likely I'm gonna be left on red. Like, I'm not really expecting, like, like, a vitriolic rejection. You and I don't have, like, a relationship where, like, we have those kinds of expectations of each other that, like, you could reasonably, like, hold me accountable for my perceived silence. And, like, if there was that attempt, like, I wouldn't have felt any kind of way. It's like, okay, we have, like, misalignment among, like, Internet colleagues. 

Michelle 36:01

I have not canceled all my friends who have not posted on Instagram, but I've also not been compassionate and kind to everybody who has not posted on Instagram. I have had real ruptures with people who I couldn't resist calling out. And I have also had conversations with people who, I understand why they haven't been able to post. And so I think this is a really complex thing because I will say that especially at the height of my advocacy, public, public advocacy, I felt really, really activated by a lot of people who were claiming to be DEI advocates and were staying silent. And I just didn't understand why. And I didn't actually care to know why. Right? Because I felt like I was also risking a lot and I was also feeling the impact and the repercussions of those risks in my life. Right. I was getting contracts canceled, people were backing out. I was not making money. And I think that also felt really unfair to me. Right. And so I think there was a lot of, a lot of the times I think I was either directly shaming or judging people or quietly side eyeing people. 

David 37:38

And that's like, like, okay, am I in that category? Right? 

Michelle 37:42

I. You were not in that category because I, first of all, I don't think you were regularly in my feed. So I just, I wasn't like, blame the algorithm. I don't think I was like, keeping tabs on you, you know, like, there were other people that I was definitely keeping tabs on because they were consistently in my feed and because they, they had a huge platform. And so I just want to name that. Yeah, the judgment has been real. And like I said in the podcast, I think part of that judgment was also directed at myself for not doing more because there were so many other people who were doing far more than me, who were taking much greater risk than me. And so it was judgment both externally and internally, and because of the degree of violence and the urgency that we were all feeling, I think that that also contributed to how we communicating with one another online and which. Which is continuing to happen. So I can understand both the people who are saying, if you haven't posted anything about Palestine, like, you're dead to me and I don't want to know you. And I can also understand people who are grappling with all these contradictions and who are looking around and thinking, but I cannot afford to take this risk right now because I have kids, I have a wife, I have a family member that depend on me to be able to provide. Right. Or I am undocumented, or I'm an immigrant and my visa is about to get revoked. Right. Like, there are myriad reasons why people are not able to take those risks. And I get that. And I think somatically, I wasn't able to be in a place where I could be compassionate about all those reasons. And I think that something that I've been talking to people about is how do we then create the conditions where we can take more collective risks together? Why is it that we are being put in a situation where we have to stay quiet or lose our job? Or why do we. Why don't more of us have the kind of safety net that we can fall back on? Right? So then we go back to sort of the systemic failures that have created these conditions where we have to choose, which is a quintessential characteristic of oppression. And I think all of those things are swirling in our culture right now online offline. And for me, that episode that I did with Kai Chang Tom was sort of not an answer. But for me, it felt like a bomb that has been necessary for me to feel a little bit less clenched and sharp towards people that I do love and care about, you included, whose struggles I may or may not have the capacity to make space for, but who I believe deserve love and belonging nonetheless. 

David 41:27

Two things come to mind. One, I want to call back to page 165 of the Wake up, Throw. 

Michelle 41:37

My words back at me. 

David 41:39

And not word for word, but the story here is when you left your company in solidarity with your colleagues, right? You're a person who takes those risks and stands on principle. And you talk about how you had lots of other colleagues who were like, yep, I'm sympathetic, I'm with you. I'm trying to buy a house right now, I can't afford it. Or like any number of reasons, I think I'm just gonna stick it out. I don't want to get involved. It's too risky for me. Any number of factors that like you or I can sit in judgment or understanding of. And like, when I listened to that podcast yesterday, like, I was reminded like specifically of like this. And like, no, this is Michelle. This is how Michelle moves in the world. Michelle takes these risks and stands on principle. And, and most people in the world don't have that in them or they haven't exercised that in them. And when I see people like us on Instagram communicate about values and the way that we represent, I worry a little bit about the impact of our words, like being the well intentioned call outs. And like, it's not just about like Palestine and Gaza, it's about any number. Like, your feminism is not real feminism. If XYZ thing, you're not LGBTQ ally. If you don't xyz, xyz, you're not a disability advocate. If you xyz. Xyz. Xyz. Right. Like those are moments that are intended to teach, but the framing of those things is sometimes alienating people. Like, oh, I guess I'm not good enough. I guess I'm not welcome at the table. And like, in this time where we need to be building bridges and coalition around any number of things because, like, shit is bad, how do we communicate in principled and kind and inviting ways that will help people like, understand like, or help people feel like what you were trying to communicate to me. Like, hey, deserving of love, deserving of understanding, education and encouragement to action, for sure. But I sit in that tension a lot. And you know, social media, if we speak about it, like, is not built on that nuance, right? It is built on like declarative, definitive statements. 

Michelle 44:00

Yeah. 

David 44:00

Because that's what like, you either like rage bait or like preach to the choir. 

Michelle 44:05

And people are like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's a tough one. Because I've been in both positions, right? Like, I could name a number of posts where I have had those declarative statements, where I have undoubtedly alienated many people. I had feedback come through mutual friends and from people who, I don't know who have told people who know me that, oh, I used to love following Michelle, but ever since Palestine happened, she just seems so like one sided that she seems so not making any room for complexity and nuance. And she's so black and white about this. And so I had to stop following her because her voice is too harsh. So I've been in both sides and I think, I think we have to make space for both. Because when I post those things, I am not actually prioritizing building bridges. I'm not prioritizing making the space more welcoming and safe for people who are newcomers. I'm actually expressing my rage and frustration and I am helping people who are feeling that rage to feel seen and validated in their anger. And I think that there is space for that work too. Is it strategic for making our movement bigger? Debatable. 

David 45:36

Right? Because like, it's energizing people who are like, with you. 

Michelle 45:40

Yeah, right. Because part of my work that's been important to me is cutting through the cognitive dissonance, right? That naming the cognitive distance that we feel that when the rage that we feel feel this big. But then the acknowledgement of that pain and reality is this small in the world and everybody around us is doing anything but acknowledging that pain and making us feel like we're Crazy that that is violent for a lot of people to experience over and over again, especially for marginalized people, for oppressed people. We know what that feels like. Right. On a number of issues that we've been told were not a big deal. So I think there's space for that work where we are giving space for righteous rage. And I think there are people like you and me who also wear the hat of being a facilitator, being an educator, being a community bridge builder. And for me, the hat that I often try to wear is the DOT connector. That that rage is not meant to alienate and shame people, even if it feels like that is what it's doing today. Can we create more sturdiness and spaciousness for us to be able to receive that and not. And metabolize that not as a personal attack and alienation, but as a call for us to tune into the pain of the people who are speaking out in that way. And. Yeah, and just kind of making space for us to then also do the work of translating that anger into a call for a broader movement by doing the education work, by doing the bridge building work. Right. Because I often, what I do is I'll post something like, I'm so angry, I'm going to say all these things and then the next day I'm like, what I meant to say to people was right. And then I'll post something that's a little bit more processed, that is a little bit less charged with my own pain, but with the intention of building bridges and with the intention of, you know, channeling a little bit more of that tender energy that I also carry. But that doesn't always come first. So I have to also be mindful of, like, which hat am I wearing and why is that important to me? And will this be useful for the people who are in my circle? Because the truth is, the vast majority of my following, I would say, are not the most politicized, the most radical leftist people. So that's. That knowledge also helps me to discern how I should. What kind of voice I should put online versus what kind of voice is something that I channel to my group chat? 

David 48:45

Yeah, yeah. 

Michelle 48:47

When is that useful? Right? When is my group chat useful? Where does my righteous anger really go? Right. And how can I metabolize that and process that for a broader public consumption based on my goals of moving and influencing my unique following? That probably looks very different than someone else's who needs that rage to be plainly visible online all the time. 

David 49:12

Yeah. And you know, in your conversation With Kai, like, they said, you know, we need to be more sensitive. Like, we. It. Like some people say, like, hey, like, don't be so sensitive. No, be more sensitive. Like, be attuned to. 

Michelle 49:26

That's right. 

David 49:27

Where that anger is coming from. Like, what about it is, like, what's pushing up against you personally versus being righteously enraged on behalf of others. And, like, there's space for both. Like, as you were saying. But be attuned to, like, what's pushing on you personally and, like, is pushing on your trauma, pushing on your shame. Maybe, like, you. You detailed and, you know, I feel that too. And like we were saying, like, know when it's for the group chat and like, something that's been floating around my mind and thinking about my conversation with you around this specifically is. Are you familiar with Dunbar's number? 

Michelle 50:02

Why does that sound familiar? 

David 50:04

Basically, like, I'm not going to quote it perfectly, but it's the study that, like, human brains were not meant to interact with, like, more than 150 people. Right. And we don't live in those conditions anymore. Especially as a person like yourself, like, who speaks, like, who types tap, tap, tap, tap, tap. And tens of thousands of people interact with it. Right. And then, like, they project their values, their own values onto you, their experience of the world, onto, like, your words. And, like, you get some of that, like, parasocial feedback back. And like, that's not healthy for anybody in that equation. But that's the world that we live in. 

Michelle 50:44

Yeah. 

David 50:44

And, like, part of me just, like, I'm going to turn this off because I recognize that I'm more present and attentive and a happier parent with my kids when I don't touch my phone that much. And yet the work that I do is in this little rectangle and is connected to people in so many places who have found, at the very least, learning solace and at the most, like, transformation through, like, my words, the things that I've offered, the spaces that I've provided. I don't know how to square that. I'm not going to stop. There's a little bit of both. And. But yeah, there's no complete end to that thought. Go. 

Michelle 51:32

No, that's real. And, you know, I sometimes talk about how I want to get off these social media platforms altogether and because it's not good for my mental health and I don't want to keep having to tinker with the algorithm and da, da, da, da, da. And my friend Lily Zhang, I'm sure, you know, we had dumplings a few months ago, and I was complaining about social media, and they were like, you know, I think I wouldn't say this to everybody but you. I think you need it. You need to be on social media because the way that you want to exist in this world doesn't always fit into the expectations and criteria of big institutions. And you need to build platforms outside of those institutions and by connecting directly with the people. So I thought that was a really important distinction and discernment for me because I was always thinking about social media as almost like a sales tool, right? Like, you get. You get promoted, you promote yourself and you get noticed and you stay relevant and then you get work. But bigger than that was my ability to connect directly with people without the gatekeepers of the institutional guards, which to me has become more important than ever with my stance on Palestine. And so, yeah, I share the frustration with you, and I think there's very compelling reasons for people who believe in speaking truth to remain on these platforms. 

David 53:22

Yeah, no, that none of this is easy and none of these answers are definitive and forever. Right. Like you were saying, feeling lost in process. Same girl, same. And I don't think that this conversation has given me any perfect answers. Definitely more insight. Definitely grateful for connection, reconnection. I am curious. I was going to ask you this offline, given what we've talked about. Who, if you were to send this to one person or one avatar of a person, who do you really want to hear this conversation? 

Michelle 54:20

I think people who are feeling lost not only about their, like, purpose in life, but also how they're navigating their relationships, people who are feeling both the anger, but also shame, people who are trying to make sense of all that swirling inside of them. I think those people would find this conversation, at the very least, like, they're not alone, you know, which is the whole purpose behind my podcast. But, yeah, yeah, and I really do wish that I have more answers, like, more definitive answers that people are looking for. Right. Like, how do I feel better about having to reconcile between my values and capitalism? I wish. I wish I had a, like, step by step guide. I wish I had a step by step guide for people who are feeling lost or people who are trying to navigate friendship ruptures. But all I can say is that there are so many different ways that we're all trying to make sense of this time. And I always find comfort and relief when I know that I am not alone in these experiences of feeling utterly confused and challenged. So, yeah, I would say people who are trying to make sense of all these things. 

David 55:53

Yeah. And you are not only providing spaces for people not to feel alone, in the words of your podcast, but you're also providing spaces for people to be in conversation with each other, with you and process. How can people support you in that? Work in the ways that you want to be supported? 

Michelle 56:12

Listen to the podcast, subscribe and leave a review that helps to subscribe on YouTube. 

David 56:17

Like subscribe. 

Michelle 56:18

Yeah, subscribe all the things, including for here we've written reviews because that helps to make. That helps make the podcast more discoverable for people. Yeah. And. And I don't know. I don't know what door is going to open as a result of this, but I am. I would love to get back on the road to being on stage with people and being in conversation. So if your organization or an event is looking for people to create that space, I'm available. You are available. Good people are available. So yeah. And I, I want to see more people taking collective risk. I think that gives me a lot of hope every time I see that. And I think you inviting me to be in conversation with you was both a personal and professional risk. And I appreciate you for that. 

David 57:10

Hello. So we were about to wrap up the podcast in a neat, tidy way, but then Michelle asked a follow up question and the conversation that ensued was too spicy for us to give proper context to, given our time constraints during the time of recording. So sorry to leave you hanging like that and with this abrupt end to the episode, but until next time, may you be safe, may you be happy, may you be healthy, may you live with ease, and may you work for a world where that can be true for everyone. Peace.