Meet Equality Champion Shelley Zalis

“Create a workplace for women, and you will create a workplace for everyone” - Shelley Zalis

Our guest today is the dynamic Shelley Zalis, CEO of The Female Quotient and an internationally renowned leader, movement maker and champion of equality. Shelley is a pioneer for online research, becoming the first female chief executive ranked in the research industry’s top 25. Today as CEO of the Female Quotient she works with Fortune 500 companies and impact organizations to advance equality in the workplace. Shelley also uses her platform to amplify other women and is a force for change to be reckoned with.

Have a question or comment? Email us at themanifista@gmail.com.

Resources Mentioned
Shelley Zalis on LinkedIn
Shelley Zalis on Instagram
The Female Quotient
Gallup report on women and the workplace
Roar: Into the second half of your life by Michael Clinton

Transcript

TRANSCRIPT - SHELLEY ZALIS 

Portia Mount  0:13  

Shelley Zalis CEO of The Female Quotient. Welcome to the Manifista Podcast. It's so wonderful to be with you today. 

Shelley Zalis  0:26  

So excited to be here, Portia.

Portia Mount  0:29  

And I have to give a shout out to Eve Rodsky for introducing us because she knows the most amazing women, and Shelley I wanted to start with talking a little bit about, I don't want to say stalking you online. But I was doing my research. And I found this really interesting interview that you did with Lisa Niver. I hope I'm pronouncing her last name correctly, of Lisa Go Travel. And you told this really interesting story when you were a young researcher about a review, like a not so great performance review that you had gotten. And I was really curious, because what struck me and you sharing just your approach to your career starting out was how really gutsy and determined you seem to be. And our listeners are typically really early career women and are very much looking for a sense of purpose, and direction. And I'm just wondering, where did that come from for you? Obviously, you've had an incredible career as a CEO, as a thought leader. And I'm just wondering if you could talk a little bit about where and how you develop a sense of purpose, and how that led to The Female Quotient?

Shelley Zalis  1:53  

First of all, thank you. You know what, I didn't really think I had so much courage and so much, you know, hutzpah, really, except that when I went to this review, I mean, I must have been 25 years old. And I you know, my male boss, who's still actually a really good friend of mine. So now I'm turning 60 on March 24. So this was 30, over 35 years ago. And I didn't have the ability to have this kind of courage because I really needed my job. I needed the paycheck. And but the review, I really thought I was perfect in every way. I came to work early. I stayed late, I said yes to everybody. I thought I was a great team player. I mean, I thought I was you know, everything I was supposed to be, as an employee. And I go in, and of course, we had typewriters at the time. And it was, you know, a very lengthy review. I think it was like 10 typewritten pages, you know, tiny little print. And so I sat down with so much confidence and my I guess arrogance at the time, and, you know, first three lines were very nice, you know, I'm kind, I'm smart. I'm gracious, I say, Yes, I'm a good team player, and all of that. So, you know, it started very well. And then it went on to rip me to shreds. And the rest was, you know, I have too many client lunches, and I come back and push people out of their comfort zone. And you know, I say yes to clients, and I have speedy deadlines, you know, that I expect people to deliver on and all these kinds of things. And, of course, I was supposed to agree with the review and sign the acceptance that I accept the review. But I didn’t agree, I thought he was wrong. And I started arguing, I guess, and I said, Are you supposed, aren't relationships in business so important? And isn't the client always right? And shouldn't we be listening to the client, and I just said what I felt. I followed my heart. And as a result of me not agreeing with him, I was sort of demoted. And he put this woman above me. And it was that moment of truth. And from that moment on, it was what I call heartbeat moments. You follow your heart, not your head. And it was that moment where I realized I'd rather be in charge and I want to be the boss and why am I never going to be right if I listen to what the guy says, but I'll never win and I'm never going to succeed in business. And also, I can't be someone I'm not. Right. And that was my moment of truth. And when I gave myself the name chief troublemaker because I knew I was going to break all the rules that make no sense and create the new ones. And that was my moment of truth. And, of course, I'm still great friends with this guy today. And I remember going back and asking him, and I was written up about this one, too. And I kept that, by the way, I kept that review. I still have it today.

Portia Mount  5:31  

Are you? Are you being serious? 

Shelley Zalis  5:33  

Yeah, I have it. 

Portia Mount  5:34  

You still have it? I love that. 

Shelley Zalis  5:34  

Yeah, and I said to him recently, don't you feel bad about that review? And he said, No. And I said, why not? And he said, Well, look where you are today. And he said, I know I've given you that review, you would have been following orders have been an order taker, and you wouldn't have broken all the rules, you wouldn't have been a chief troublemaker you want to create as a company that you created, you wouldn't have written your new rules, you would have created the corporate rules, he said, and you wouldn't be where you are today. And he's right. 

Portia Mount  6:12  

I, that story gives me chills. And I think especially because so many women can relate to being in these situations where they're told that they should essentially just shut up and comply. And, and or they're discouraged from speaking their minds or challenging the status quo. And so what I love about that story is how much you stood up for yourself, and you stepped forward. And you did it your own way. And I think that's what makes your story really compelling Shelley. I'm curious as you think about the path from being one of the you know, few women in market research, and you were sort of a legend in that, and you were named top 25. And then you and then going from being in that role to being the founder of The Female Quotient. I wonder if you could just talk a little bit about the, and I know, I'm collapsing some time here. But talk about the decision making process you went through from essentially working for somebody else then selling your company, leading that company, and then moving forward to the work that you're doing now. And I just wondered if there was a plan? Was there a process? Was it more organic? How did that come about?

Shelley Zalis  7:32  

Yeah, I mean, you know, I always say, I really did not have a plan. I had no idea where I was going to be. And I really always did follow my heart. And when I left the corporate world to start my own company. I remember going to my bosses saying I had this crazy idea to migrate research from offline from central location and telephone to the internet. And of course, my bosses, my bosses, bosses, my bosses, bosses, men, men, men, men, men, all told me that it was not the right time, because the only people that were online, were wealthy old men with broadband connections. And so it was too early. And so I think a couple weeks later, I was on a panel with the head of research for Procter and Gamble. His name was Larry Mach. And my bosses were on the front row. And I was with Larry Mach on this stage. And we were, I was whispering to him. And I came off the stage. And my bosses all were like, well, what were you talking to Larry Mach about? I mean, he was the most powerful researcher in the industry. And I said, Well, I was just asking him, when is the right time to come and talk to Procter and Gamble about online research? Because you all told me, I have to wait for the right time. I want to know when the right time is. So I was asking him when is the right time. And so my bosses said, Well, what did he say? And I said, Well, he said, next week, come in, and let's talk about it. And I said, so we have a meeting at Procter and Gamble. And my boss has said, Oh my god, that is amazing. Paul's gonna go, John's gonna go, Ringo’s gonna go and Star’s gonna go. And I'm like, But what about Shelley? And they said, Well, you know, it's a boys club. And so that's probably the right group to go. And I said, Well, if I'm not going, I am going to cancel the meeting. And you can all wait for the right time. And it was another heartbeat moment. For me. It was another moment where I realized, when is Shelley going to ever be right? Why am I always waiting for the right time? Why am I always waiting for these men to decide when it's my time when I'm going to be right and I can be in charge.

Portia Mount  9:45  

My praise has been going up. 

Shelley Zalis  9:46  

That was it. That was my moment where I said, I'm done. I'm out of here. I'm going to start my own company. I'm going to be the boss. I'm going to be in charge. I'm going to make the decisions right or wrong, but I am going to make my old rules, and that's when I left the corporate world, I put up my own shingle. And it was called Online Testing Exchange. OTX. I had no idea if I was going to be successful or not, but I knew I was going to write my own rules. And that is how I started my company. I was the first, you know, an only female CEO, top 25. And thank God, you know, I was no longer the exception to the rule, I created the new norm, I wrote my rules. And you know, I ended up building a pretty successful company, 250 employees. I then sold it to Ipsos, the third largest research company in the world. I mean, my story then goes on and on. And, you know, it was a very successful company. And, and I was, you know, I said to myself, I'm going to be the first, the second and the third, because when you're a founder and building something that doesn't exist, you are the one that you know, makes all the mistakes. And you usually don't win, right? The second is always the copycat, but they don't know what's under the hood. And the third is the sweeper that rides in on the white horse and has all the shiny tools and wins. And so I always said, There's no way I'm going to be the inventor, but lose. So I was always the first, the second and the third. And, you know, so was the success story, of course, and sold the company, and then from there, left and started The Female Quotient. So that's how I got to where I was, but had no intention, I had no idea I was going to go from the business of market research and pioneering online research to being in the business of equality. It all sort of happened by accident.

Portia Mount  11:47  

Yeah. Wow. And I love that. And I think that's the perfect segway because but there is sort of a red thread from where you started to where you are now in terms of pioneering The Female Quotient, which is really kind of the only organization of its kind. And I'm wondering, as you started The Female Quotient, how did you arrive at the central sort of idea around? Gender equality, women's pay equality, what was it there? What was the nut you were trying to crack? Because it's not a new idea. But your approach is actually incredibly unique Shelly.

Shelley Zalis  12:46  

Yeah. Thank you. You just gave me shivers asking me that question. You know, I was the only female CEO top 25 my entire career in my category, and it is lonely at the top. I knew I thought differently. I knew I acted differently than my peers. And it was a moment where I went to Cannes, at The Lions festival. And I remember, never really as a market researcher. So as a researcher in a media group, I was never welcomed, researchers were always at the bottom of the totem pole. And so here I go to this conference. And of course, how do you break into a new industry when you're the only researcher? Not a woman but as a researcher, and all the media, people have their own little groupies and their parties, and I wasn't invited to anything. And you know, so I was the one that was like the Schleper that actually went to the conference. And I was sitting in the audience, like, I wasn't invited to anyone's parties, and I went to the opening dinner with the people sort of that were the nobodies. And I remember walking on the croisset back to my room thinking, how am I ever going to break into this industry, no one's going to welcome me in. Because I'm the lonely researcher. Forget about big a woman. And then I wanted to go to CES, the Consumer Electronics Show in Vegas, and you know, there were 150,000 people, less than 3% were women. And once again, I thought, I don't want to be not invited to anything. I don't want to go by myself, and especially as a woman to a technology conference. And so I thought to myself, I don't want to feel alone. And it was his moment of truth where I thought, What am I going to do? And so I said, You know what, I'm going to invite four girlfriends, and I'm going to call them up and say, will you go with me so that you walk the floor with me? And 24 hours in advance I called for girlfriends, and I said if you know other girlfriends that want to go invite them. 24 hours later, 50 women showed up to walk the floor, and two remarkable things happened. Number one, every single guy's head turned. And it's when I coined the phrase power of the pack. A woman alone has power. Collectively, we have impact. It was this wow factor. We walked the floor, every guy's head turned like Where the heck did all of you women come from? And I no longer felt invisible. One woman in an ocean of men, you’re lost. 50 women as a pack. You can't miss us. It was this amazing, powerful moment. And the second thing that happened was I was surrounded by people just like me, women talking about work life balance, women talking about imposter syndrome. And by the way, more business was done. We were all power women with money in our pockets, doing deals. And next thing you knew 50 turned to a 100, a 100 turned to 200. We all of a sudden had the penthouse suite by day three. And that's how the girls lounge started. And the name happened in one second. The opposite of boys club, the opposite of boy is girl, the opposite of club is lounge. There's a boys club now there's a girl lounge. Bam. And so many women were like, but we're not girls. I'm like have you ever heard of a man object being a boy in the boys club? Why are we creating a double standard of girl on the word girl? Girlfriends, girl power, go girl. I said and by the way ladies lounge sounds like a bathroom and women's lounge is so goddamn boring. Who wants to be in a women's lounge? Like, let me have some fun. And then I brought you know hair and makeup in. And women are like, Oh, we can't do our hair makeup if men see us, don't we? What is the problem? We loved to get our hair and makeup done. It's not a girly thing. And by the way, we started doing business, getting our hair makeup done and having fun while we were doing business. And then next thing you knew, we started creating girls lounges at every industry conference. And next thing you knew no woman was left behind. You're never lonely. You're never alone. And more support, women started supporting other women. And next thing you knew you'd go to the conference you like, Hey, girl, hey, hey, hey, hey, and the pack started building. Next thing you knew we started doing 70 pop ups at every industry conference and 300 women turned to 50,000 women. And we were connecting country to country. And now we're in over 100 countries, women supporting other women, giving advice to other women helping each other. And then the girl lounge turned to the equality lounge, so that men would feel just as much a part of it. But you know what? Women run the show. And men all feel comfortable and all feel welcome. It's not about women. It's about everyone having a place to go. But women supporting women and men being a part of the equation in the solution. And women have the mic. And given women the visibility and the power and having the conversations around how we close the gaps. And today, it's a household name at every major conference. And it's a place where every woman knows she is never alone.

Portia Mount  18:40  

So amazing. 

Shelley Zalis  18:41  

And now they're called the quality lounges. You will find one at every big conference. And it's just a safe, secure place. All conversations happen there. And it's where everyone just unplugged and has the real conversation not the one that is staged. But we get to the solutions and it's all about the power of collaboration and transparency.

Portia Mount  19:21  

A couple of things really strike me, one is around inclusion, and around making sure that women don't feel alone. The other piece that really resonates for me is around community which especially right now I think as we're coming out of, you know, knock on wood, the pandemic. I want to pivot to that a little bit over the last couple of years, women have been fundamentally changed. I know you know this, you're speaking on it a lot. We are talking about. We are talking about pay inequities, we're talking about the lack of affordable childcare, especially in the United States. We are talking about the disparity between black and white women and women of across multiple races. And I'm curious, how has your perspective or maybe the vision of The Female Quotient shifted? Or has it during the pandemic? I'm just curious, sort of, as you thought about the last couple of years and then the work ahead for The Female Quotient. What's on your mind there?

Shelley Zalis  20:52  

It's been so radically amazing actually, because, you know, going into, pre pandemic we were doing, I'd say 70 pop up lounges at industry conferences, and then pandemic hits and our physical lounges. come to a screeching halt. What do you do? And all of a sudden, we pivot literally within a minute. And we go virtual, we were the first actually to go virtual, because we are connecting with, you know, leaders, and the conversations have to keep going. So we go virtual. During the pandemic, we've hosted probably over 700 plus, plus conversations during the pandemic, probably over 1,000 conversations, but who's counting. And the most remarkable thing that happened was our community amplified exponentially. And what was amazing was, we realized that by having physical lounges, we were leaving out so many women, because it was only the people that were at those conferences. And you know, we thought our pivot was an “or” during the pandemic, it will never be an “or” it'll always be an “and” now because the women that we have been connecting with have been so inspiring. And listening to hear has been the most remarkable thing for us, we have learned so much more about what women want and what women need. And so the conversations that we've been having have been eye opening, and so important for how now we are advising fortune 500 leaders on what needs to happen, to help us transform the way companies are operating, and advising them on what they need to do moving forward to change the great resignation to the great retention for all women.

Portia Mount  23:23  

Can we talk a little bit about that, because I work for a company with over 37,000 people. I am on the leadership team for one of our businesses, and I also co lead one of our women's ERGs. And we were talking about this a lot Shelley around how we keep our best and brightest women, how we grapple with some pushback, quite frankly, around diversity and inclusion, especially those of us who are in very male dominated industries like manufacturing. And so I'm wondering how you're starting this having this conversation with Fortune 500 companies and what are you telling them about what you're hearing from your membership and from leaders from around the world around, you know, how they need to go forward in this sort of what we call the future of work, I'm putting air quotes around it. What are you sharing with them? What about what you're hearing?

Shelley Zalis  24:18  

So we got invited to the World Economic Forum six years ago, and my invitation for the equality lounge was as follows. Shelley, we want you to come but you might not feel welcome. That was my invitation.

Portia Mount  24:50  

Nice. Nice.

Shelley Zalis  24:52  

And once again, two paths I could have taken, one don't go. Who wants that kind of invitation? 

Portia Mount  24:58  

Right. Like come to the kids. Basically it's like come to the kids table.

Shelley Zalis  25:02  

And so and the other was to, of course, be bold and brave. And know I had a responsibility, which was to, you know, think, Oh, God, don't go, don't go, don't go. And then of course, my heart that made my mouth say, of course, thank you for the invitation, I will be there. And so we came, and I had a little hole in the wall, because that was all that was left, I took it. And I called my girlfriend at Bloomberg at the time, Jackie Kelly. I am saying her name so loud and proud, because this is what girlfriends do, we support one another. So you got to go with me because it's scary, and we're not going, we're not going to feel welcome. But we're going to make ourselves welcome. We're going to take that seat at the table. And that's what happened. And now we bring women, we change the color, we change the race at the World Economic Forum. It’s pretty remarkable. And it's the same thing when we started Global Exchange. And so here is what we are doing now. We are going to find conscious CEOs. CEOs that want to listen, that want to listen to hear, and that truly want to evolve. And that want to transform from the resignation to the retention with the best talent, the best, and look at not what was but what can be and create opportunity. Because with every challenge comes opportunity. So you know, work with those conscious leaders. And you know, part of the problem is, you know, some people look at the glass half empty, it's the ones with the glass half full. And when you really look for the opportunities, and get rid of the junk in the trunk, you know, because when you look at the workplace, it was written over 100 years ago by men for men, because that's all that was in the workplace. If you have an open mind, and you truly want to with the premise, create a workplace for women, you will create a workplace for everyone. And if you go in with that mindset, and so from listening for the last 18 months, to women in over 100 countries of what they need and what they want. We have created some pretty big ideas that contextualize the ideas around flexibility, remote work, diversity, those are big words, we use phrases like we need human empathetic CEOs. What does that mean? We need flexibility. What does that mean? We need, so I think we've come up with actually very specific color, like connect the dots, color by design, you know, when you have with your kids, those workbooks that they can make the perfect bird in the house by connecting the dots. We've actually framed how to really do that. But not to say do a three to schedule oh, let's have a four day work week. It doesn't really work that way. But actually putting it down in color, by design, like we could actually show you how to put that together, that will actually work. And if you could measure the impact of going from the resignation to the retention and show the success and have the 10 CEOs with successful case studies. And prove it. We will get everyone else that wants to follow. So that's my goal this year. And we're going to do it and we're going to make it happen. And it is very doable. And you know what, it is not hard Portia is actually quite simple. But it does take a conscious leader that actually is open to listening, learning and hearing and willing to do what you need to do. But it is not hard.

Portia Mount  29:28  

You think those leaders, do you think those leaders are out there?

Shelley Zalis  29:31  

Absolutely positively exclamation point. They absolutely are.

Portia Mount  29:40  

I am really struck by the breadth and the depth of that vision Shelley. I also believe that we are ready. I think we're I think there is no better there is absolutely no better time than right now.

Shelley Zalis  29:59  

The time is now, and the truth is, with everything we have going for all of us, and you know, but it just takes positivity and passion and purpose. And I think we have it, and we have to stop looking at what's not. And we have to start looking at what is. And we have to put our mind where, and our heart where it matters. And, and I know, we can, and we will, and, and we have to be accountable. And I will with 1,000% Certainty find 10 major leaders that will lead the way. And the rest will either follow or they won't, and the ones that won't, don't have to but they will pay the price for not and let them bye bye. You know?

Portia Mount  31:16  

I'm so energized by this idea. I just finished reading the, Gallup just put out its latest report on essentially what women are asking for in their careers and what they're looking for in their new employers. And I'm struck by this fact. And I'm in that the social contract between individuals and their companies and women and in our companies has fundamentally changed. And that is why people are walking away. And I am, I am struck by the fact that there are some companies that are already leading, and they're already on the edge. But there are far more who are saying, You know what, the pandemic summer is over, get back into the go ahead and get back into the office. And, you know, it is what it is. And so I'm really excited by the work that female quotient is going to be doing this year and beyond Shelley around this because we can't go back to we cannot go back to what we had to years ago. And you know, it's not sustainable. It's not sustainable.

Shelley Zalis  32:24  

No, and it's like, it's, you know, we keep talking about what we're gonna do enough? No more talking and we need the measurement. Trust is not translatable, it needs to be translatable into the action steps that lead to the trust, break it down. It's got to be broken down. And we got to put our money where our mouth is, we got to break it down. And we need to show the performance that leads up to the trust factors, you know, we need to show everything that leads to trust.

Portia Mount  33:14  

I'm struck by and I know we're coming to the end of our time. What's powerful about that is I'm probably not going to get this exactly right. But 5 million women leaving the workforce over the last year translates into something like 600 a $650 billion dollar hit to the US economy alone. That's we're just talking about the United States economy. If you do this the impact is exponential. And that is what gives me and the fact that you can you'll be able to measure it gives me chills, because it is exponential in terms of impact of families, impact communities, impact to to industry. And that is really inspiring.

Shelley Zalis  34:05  

Yeah, I mean, and I think that this is how we can hold CEOs accountable to their board, but also to their employees. And that's how we can make a difference because if we don't hold them accountable, they could keep getting away with doing nothing.

Portia Mount  34:27  

Amen, amen. 

Shelley Zalis  34:28  

So that time has passed. And you know, when you get to a point like me, like you know, I'm 60 years old. I have nothing to lose.

Portia Mount  34:38  

Which by the way, I want people to go to your Instagram feed, there's this amazing, amazing picture of you and your daughter and… 

Shelley Zalis  34:48  

My son.

Portia Mount  34:49  

…and then your son I'm sorry and then you with your grand… 

Shelley Zalis  34:53  

…my grandson. 

Portia Mount  34:57  

Which is like, it's such a striking photo. But what I also appreciate is that you are a woman who has continued to push the boundaries, who's continued to challenge the status quo. And I want our early career listeners to understand the massive impact you can have from the beginning, all the way through the like, just so far into your career and to, to and to not stop to keep going. 

Shelley Zalis  35:28  

And I talk about age a lot, because I am sick of ageism, or you're not relevant. You know, I just interviewed Michael Clinton, the former CEO of Hearst, and he wrote a book called Roar. And it's so amazing, because he says, You have to roar forward at every age, you know, he's sick of people saying that, you know, the 60s, the new 40. No, 60 is 60. And, you know, you have to, I'm proud to be 60, this is an exciting chapter. And that's why I'm saying I'm, like, so excited about this new CEO chapter of my life, the last five years of FQ was, you know, really working on the power of collaboration, you know, getting the industry to collaborate together in equality lounges. And to me, now, it's about the power of action. And the only way we're going to get action is at the CEO level, not the CMO level, the CMO level is about the power of collaboration inside of lounges. And working together to share, you know, the good, bad and the ugly. So we make progress on DE&I. But now to really close the gaps. You know, it has to be CEO action at the top making that commitment, you know, this is gonna be my 60s, you know, and I'm ready, like, let's go, right. 

Portia Mount  37:09  

Well, you have the power, you have the power now too, that's the other thing. So you have the power and the influence, and the resources and the network. And this is what I want women to see is like, you consolidate all of that, and you can make, drive just huge change.

Shelley Zalis  37:27  

That's, that's what we got to do. You know, change at every age. I mean, age is a mindset, you know, my father, you know, may rest in peace. I mean, he said he was ageless, you know, and it really is a mindset and age is about action. So, you know, we all have the power to act. It's all a choice.

Portia Mount  37:47  

Well, Shelley Zalis, I am so grateful to get some of your time today. My heart is actually kind of racing, because I'm so inspired, and actually really, and really moved by your mission. And thank you for what you're doing for women and also for the model that you present about what is possible when you listen to your heart and your intuition. And you are hella smart, and just and want to end and pursue your own destiny. So I appreciate you.

Shelley Zalis  38:23  

Well, gosh, and I so appreciate you and you just like speak from your heart and your questions and your listening skills. And your adaptability is phenomenal. So I would love for you to travel with us and interview in our lounges. And just...

Portia Mount  38:40  

I would love it. I would love it. Sign me up. I would love it. 

Shelley Zalis  38:45  

Done!

Portia Mount  38:46  

Well, thank you. Thank you. So thank you so much, Shelley. It's been a delight.