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Narrator: It's time for Talking Michigan Transportation, a podcast devoted to the conversations with people at the forefront of the ongoing mobility revolution. In the state that put the world on wheels, here's your host, MDOT Communications Director Jeff Cranson.
Jeff Cranson: Hi, once again this is a Talking Michigan Transportation podcast. Today I'm really pleased to have with me Trevor Pawl, who has been named by the governor to head up the new Office of Future Mobility and Electrification for Michigan, and as he points out himself that's a mouthful. Trevor, thanks for taking time to do this.
Trevor Pawl: Great to be here.
Jeff Cranson: So, tell us, what does it mean?
Trevor Pawl: Yeah, sure, well, I mean, I should probably start with the definitions of mobility and electrification. So, when we talk about mobility, and the future of mobility, it refers to technologies and services that enable people and goods to move around more freely. It's tied to transportation, but the word automotive isn’t in there, meaning that it includes automotive, but it also includes all the other different ways that people and goods move around our state. Then, electrification refers to the range of technologies that use electricity for power vehicle, why that's important is because if you're seeing more electric vehicles on the road it's likely the environment is going to improve. It's likely more efficient in terms of fuel consumption, less cost to the user. So, really the idea of the office is to bring together all the different things happening in the state under a common vision as it relates to the future of mobility, and as it relates to the future of electrification.
Jeff Cranson: So, I've come to know you over the past couple years because of your work specifically with Planet M, which is kind of a broad umbrella brand that was created with your agency, MEDC, and with MDOT to, you know, help guide these various technologies and these groups and create this collaborative atmosphere which is, you know, is one of the things Michigan really has going for it. You hear that all the time, that other states want to create that kind of ecosphere where you've got academia, private industry, and government all working together, and that’s been a big part of what Planet M's been able to do. Even before then, before your time with Planet M, you know, what got you to MEDC and into this work?
Trevor Pawl: Yeah, sure, so, way back in the day, when I came out of school, I got into advertising. I was working at a company called EPrize putting together promotions like an online game to get people excited about Wendy's breakfast or Scott's fertilizer. This was also during the time when the recession hit hard, like 2008-2009, and I wanted to be a bigger part of what was happening in sort of a historic moment, so I switched over to economic development, and got a job at the Detroit Regional Chamber launching a matchmaking platform that connected local buyers to, or sorry, local suppliers to global buyers. So, think about that machine shop on Van Dyke Avenue in Detroit needing to find new lines of business to stay alive. It would be on us to sort of get in the door and help them get into commercial aviation or aerospace applying those sort of companies, or any other industry that could give those companies from a lifeline, if you will. That program, ultimately, was acquired by the state of Michigan through the Michigan Economic Development Corporation which is the economic development arm of the governor's office. I did that for wide variety of years and took over some other state programs too, our international trade program and then also our entrepreneurial program, but around 2017 I was asked to focus on mobility. I was good at putting together programs, but admittedly I wasn't as smart on the future of transportation. I relied heavily on my friends at MDOT and industry to get me up to speed on what was needed, and we tried to build a platform that was relevant. It did a couple of things, first of all, we, you know, focused on smart infrastructure as it means to improve the quality of life, and frankly, the safety of pedestrians and drivers. We worked with MDOT on the series of technology innovations, you know, whether it was helping, you know, the elderly in the U.P. leverage, you know, idle fleets to get to doctor's appointments or the grocery store, or helping Detroit detect potholes. There are different things that we try to do. Secondly, we focused on creating the connectivity with an ecosystem that you think would exist naturally, but because folks are so heads down around here trying to move their business forward sometimes it's tough to get that start up from that corporate, or that corporate and that university together, or the American Center for Mobility, which is a testing site in southeast Michigan connected to west Michigan. We did a lot of that that stuff, and it's sort of hard to track and it was a little softer. Over time it did, you know, prove out. I mean, just for this connection we will recognize $95 million dollars in investment in Michigan. Then that ultimately led to the, you know, the Governor's Office at the beginning of last year wanting to focus on mobility trying to figure out how, and then ultimately thinking that the right structure to figure out how, and to move the ball forward was to create this office. Then subsequently the chief mobility officer position. So, this is sort of the next chapter and the ongoing narrative, Jeff. Sorry that was a little bit long-winded.
Jeff Cranson: No, but that's good because I think that explains kind of a natural evolution from, you know, business to business matchmaking to what you're doing now. I mean, those skills all pay off and those connections pay off. I think it's good that you explained the evolution of this office, and how it was created because it demonstrates that a new governor came in, saw what previous administrations have been doing in this area, you know, is this in the space, as people like to say with mobility, and didn't reject any of it just said, ‘how can we make this better,’ you know, what can we do to take what we've done and take it to the next step? I think that's a great thing.
Trevor Pawl: Absolutely, and I mean, the focus that our governor has put on equity is tied directly back to removing mobility barriers, whether it's in our cities or in rural Northern Michigan. That's what this new office is going to be focused on.
Jeff Cranson: And our lieutenant governor also has a keen interest in that and is very supportive of that. So, talk a little bit about that because I don't think people hear enough about that when we talk about automated vehicles, really all the things that the future of mobility could be. John Peracchio, who was the chairman of the Michigan Future Mobility Council liked to say that we have to think about the diversity of users, you know, everything from scooters to, you know, he likes to talk about dogs on skateboards. So, what is the what is the social justice, the equity component of all this?
Trevor Pawl: Yeah, so, driverless vehicles, when I say that term some people think a car without a steering wheel, other people think of bikes, or scooters. Everyone sort of has their own definition of a driverless vehicle, or self-driving vehicle, it depends on the environment they're in and the experience that they had. I fundamentally believe that besides making our lives safer, greener, more productive, mobility and the future of mobility and the technologies that allow a car or a vehicle to drive itself can uphold the person's dignity in a way that we haven't seen. Frankly, I think the infrastructure, the sidewalks, the traffic lights, can be a dancing partner in many ways to upholding that person's dignity. Leveraging technology, sensor technology, whether it's signal priority or it's something else, there are ways, sort of unseen ways, to make life a little easier in Michigan for folks that haven't always had it easy. Frankly, I mean beyond that people think like a mobility, Detroit, automotive I mean, that is not -- I mean, yes, it's an epicenter that our programs don't end when you leave southeast Michigan. Frankly, the future of mobility, as I mentioned at the beginning, isn't just about getting in a car that drives itself or a pod that drives itself. It's as much about, you know, the movement of goods and the movement of goods, sort of, whether it's in a factory or on a farm like an autonomous meter. We actually worked-- we had a company in Silicon Valley that came to Michigan to try to find partners for an autonomous leader. So, there are different aspects of mobility that people don't always think about, one in the state is thinking outside of southeast Michigan, which we'll do, and then the second is, again, removing those barriers for folks which are already working on.
Jeff Cranson: So, in terms of thinking outside of southeast Michigan as you know, you talked about signal prioritization and that's a reference to what you could possibly do with transit and bus rapid transit. There's only one such service now, and that's on The Rapid in Grand Rapids. The second bus rapid transit system is going to go online soon linking Grand Valley State University, your alma mater, in Allendale with downtown Grand Rapids, and you'll have a dedicated Lane where buses can flow in their own lane with signal prioritization. Those are all the big things that are happening and we're hopeful that with the RTA and the future of, you know, what we're looking at for transit and Metro Detroit we can see the same things. In the short term, these technologies are already saving lives, and I think that's, you know, again, John Peracchio talked about that. That's lost on people that think you're just talking about driverless cars, and I'm not ready for that. That I just scares the heck out of me so, you know, go away. They don't realize that they might have had the same fears about anti-lock brakes, and now would you own a car without anti-lock brakes or driver assist? You know, whether it's lane assist telling you that you're drifting into the lanes, you know, adaptive cruise control so you don't creep up on the car in front of you, it regulates that and automatic braking. I mean, all those things are the incremental things toward this kind of automated, you know, driverless car that we're going to have, but, in the meantime, it's already saving lives.
Trevor Pawl: Yeah, I read a stat that there's been almost 10,000 fatal car crashes in Michigan over the last decade. I think the average national average is about 94% of those are attributed to human error. Frankly, the sooner we can deploy smart infrastructure, the more lives are going to be saved. I was reading-- I think is from the University of Michigan--I was reading another statistic that mentioned deploying highly automated vehicles, and smart infrastructure that is just 10% safer for the average human will save more lives than if we wait until it's at 75%.
Jeff Cranson: I believe that. Yeah, I firmly believe that. Well, so talk about the office and what you see, you know, coming together in the near term and in the long term. I mean, you know, in a sense you're kind of a ringmaster in this role because you've got some of the partners, and you're trying to keep everybody going in the same direction. That's challenging, but it can be very rewarding too.
Trevor Pawl: Yeah, well, you're right, I mean, here are the numbers, there's 17 state departments that are working in some way on the future of mobility directly or indirectly. Then, within those 17 departments is over 135 different commissions, councils, teams that have their own projects. So, part of this office, and I know we're not going to always bat a thousand but we're going to try, is to bring a lot of those groups together or at least develop lines of communication, so we're all meeting off the same script. For us, our vision is simple, right? It's a stronger state economy and safer, more equitable, and environmentally conscious transportation for Michigan residents. If you break that down in sort of two North Star goals, its global mobility leadership and national electrification leadership. We say national electrification leadership because if you go around the world and there's just different forms of government in places like the United Arab Emirates and Singapore, even Europe, that are tough to compete against right now, but if you can be leaders in the U.S. I think it really positions us well globally.
Jeff Cranson: So, what do you say to the skeptics on that front who, you know, very few people have electric cars more have some kind of hybrid, but a fully electric vehicle is still a small percentage of the users, and they think, you know, that's a long ways off, I don't see that happening. You know, between range anxiety, and, you know, all of the various challenges why are you bullish on that?
Trevor Pawl: Well, it's not as much, I think, me being bullish on it as the entire global industry is. I mean, EV is, whether we like it or not in Michigan right now, or well, I shouldn't say right now, but they're projected to be about 33% of sales by 2025. They're surging upwards right now, even within a pandemic. They're expected to pass internal combustion engine vehicle sales by 2030, taking about 51% of the market, Europe and China are leading. A majority of our vehicles in the U.S. are still on the road or still internal combustion engine, so not electric powered, where in other places you're seeing that that in the inverse. Where in Europe and China, there are more EVs on the road in certain areas, but the truth is and going back to your question is that our charging infrastructure isn't there yet. People should have range anxiety at the moment and should be careful how they drive their EVs. The intent of this office and the intent of our ongoing partnership with MDOT is to figure out how to move as briskly as possible to get a regional charging network in place, and then provide sort of the policy levers, whether it's charging incentives or other things that we can do, to expedite innovation around our charging infrastructure. I'm confident in this administration, this MDOT leadership, this new office that we can get that done. Frankly, I mean, we have EV producers in this state, like Rivian and the Detroit three that demand that of state government. If they're going to continue to invest in us and create jobs here, we're going to need to follow suit and create that infrastructure and create those policies to move us forward.
Jeff Cranson: Yeah, so, I think that is something that--when you talk about 17 state departments that sounds like a lot and you think how could they all have a piece of this? It's because of all those things you just talked about that fall into various categories. Obviously, you know, that's a big factor for energy and the environment. It's a big factor for everything we do in terms of how we move. I see it happening and I see more and more interest in it. Hearing 2025 I wonder if it could even be sooner than that that we hit, you know, what did you say? Probably 33% by then? I wonder if it'll go faster than that possibly. Yeah, well, so, I guess lastly we talked about the near term, long term, you know, what do you see this office doing in terms of business development and, you know, business retention and business growth, I guess?
Trevor Pawl: Sure, so I have a short list here that I'd love to share with you, Jeff. First thing on that list is increased mobility investment in Michigan, so that means generating new investment when the company is here, but also companies in Silicon Valley that are maybe looking for new operation location, and generally creating jobs, creating mobility focused jobs. The second thing is expanding Michigan’s smart infrastructure needs, so developing systems, and conductivity even whatever you have to deploy autonomous and shared transportation.
Jeff Cranson: Explain smart infrastructure for the layman.
Trevor Pawl: Yeah, yes, sure, sorry about that. It's infrastructure that is able to talk to the vehicle, and even talk to things like your phone, or anything else on you that has the ability to connect wirelessly. Frankly, it creates an environment too where vehicles can talk to vehicles. Why it's important to have all these different things talking to one another is because either the infrastructure or the vehicle can give the other one a heads up if there's an issue, whether it's a traffic accident, maybe it's construction.
Jeff Cranson: Or maybe the same reason when I'm riding on the trail and there are people walking in front of me and I say, ‘on your left,’ right? They would--
Trevor Pawl: Yes, that is a more basic, better explanation.
Jeff Cranson: They would know I was coming. No, I think that's what people need to think about though. I think when you hear that vehicle-to-vehicle, why does my car need to talk to that other car? It's like just so he knows it's there. That's why.
Trevor Pawl: Yeah, and just, you know, to give you the rest of the things on my list, we're going to engage more mobility startups. I believe we're the premier state for these young companies to build and commercialize in technology. We just need to begin more conversations with them. Then, further enabling Michigan's mobility workforce. There's going to be a lot of displacement as well as opportunity that's going to be caused by the future of mobility. What do we do right now to create training programs necessary to be globally competitive? Sorry, I can't talk today.
Jeff Cranson: No, that's like that's a good one too though. That anxiety about that displacement, it's kind of like what's going on in retail right now. You know, you might shed a tear about you brick-and-mortar, but you might also know somebody who's got a really good job delivering for Amazon. That's the transformation and we can try to be nostalgic if we want, but you can't stop this natural progression, really.
Trevor Pawl: Yeah, and then we talked about EVs and then we got a bolster of Michigan's mobility manufacturing, that's part of this too. Those are the things we're going to be working on.
Jeff Cranson: Yeah, you got through that list in a hurry actually. I was looking at it myself. Yeah, maybe real quickly before we wrap it up just a little bit more on that bolstering the manufacturing core. How does this factor into that?
Trevor Pawl: Yeah, so, I think there are a couple ways--it seems like a very shiny object right now, the future of mobility. To say if you're a local or Warren based machine shop or Wyoming based, Wyoming, Michigan based machine shop. How do you talk to Google? How do you talk to Uber? How do you show that your materials would be perfect and at the right price point for some of these companies? I think it's a upon us to begin to look at making more of those sorts of connections and allow more Michigan companies to take part in the evolution of this new part of the industry. Secondly, I think it goes back to enabling our workforce whether it's maintaining the radar needed for a driverless vehicle, or maintaining, like we talked about earlier, the smart infrastructure. I mean, a lot of the workforce that will be displaced it's not because they're not talented, it's because they haven't been given the right sets of information to solve the problems that are going to come at us the next five or ten years. A lot of that is going to have to do with manufacturing and specifically around the different products and services we're going to be placing in our vehicles and placing on our roads. I don't want to get into this, but there's a revolution going on too with advanced manufacturing and artificial intelligence and, you know, sort of the Internet of things and data and sort of what we collect during the manufacturing process too that's going to impact this industry. We need to make sure that whatever we're doing for that to get people ready we also need to make sure it's married to the future of mobility and all the different innovations that are coming.
Jeff Cranson: Oh yeah, we could dedicate a whole podcast to the to the data collection and data sharing. Heck, we could probably dedicate a series of podcasts just to that alone. No, this is good, Trevor. I know that we're going to have you know more announcements and more initiatives that are going to be, you know, that are going to grow out of this and things to be excited about. I'm sure we can talk about it more, but in the meantime, I think you summed it up pretty well. So, thanks for doing this.
Trevor Pawl: Yeah, this is great. Thanks again for having me.
Jeff Cranson: Thanks again for listening to this week's edition of Talking Michigan Transportation, and I want to give a special thanks to Cory Petee, who does the sound engineering for the podcast, and to Sarah Martin, of MDOT, who does the show's intro and closing.
Narrator: That's a wrap for this edition of Talking Michigan Transportation. Check out show notes and more on Soundcloud, or by subscribing on Apple podcast you.
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