Gordie Howe International Bridge and the future of Delray

This week on the Talking Michigan Transportation podcast, conversations about the rich history of the Delray neighborhood in southwest Detroit and why an author and archivist believes building the Gordie Howe International Bridge (GHIB) is helping to fuel a rebirth of the community. Karen Dybis, who has been researching the history and culture of Delray for several years, talks about what she’s learned researching history and recording oral histories with residents. 

Later, Mohammed Alghurabi, the long-time Michigan Department of Transportation (MDOT) project manager on the GHIB, talks about the relationships he’s developed in the neighborhood over many years and his appreciation for the residents. Mohammed shared his background with other projects and his work on the GHIB on the podcast in 2019.

In an extensive Detroit News story (subscription) published Dec. 10, reporter Christine Ferretti wrote: "After more than a half-century of neglect, the industrialized southwest Detroit community in the footprint of the under-construction $4.4 billion Gordie Howe International Bridge is finally getting attention. The city is in the midst of what's believed to be the first planning effort of its kind to help define Delray's future with a mix of development to spur jobs and amenities for its long haulers."

Also discussed: the ongoing redevelopment of the Detroit Riverfront and MDOT’s collaboration with other partners on projects that will enhance opportunities for pedestrians and cyclists from east of downtown to the multi-modal components of the GHIB.

Dybis also explains how the Windsor-Detroit Bridge Authority’s Community Benefits Plan promises to ensure economic, environmental and social benefits for residents and business owners in neighborhoods on both sides of the bridge. 

As she told the News, "You expect the bridge to be the enemy or the bad guys, and they are so not. That's the reason why things are getting better. They are actually trying to get money to people who haven't had money in decades."

Transcript

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Narrator: It's time for Talking Michigan Transportation, a podcast devoted to the conversations with people at the forefront of the ongoing mobility revolution. In the state that put the world on wheels, here's your host, MDOT Communications Director Jeff Cranson.

Jeff Cranson: Again, this is Jeff Cranson. Welcome to the Talking Michigan Transportation Podcast. Today I'm really pleased to have with me somebody who's put a lot of time into understanding the culture and history of the Delray neighborhood of Detroit, Karen Dybis, Former Detroit News Reporter, I guess turned author and historian. Karen, is that the best way to describe you now?

Karen Dybis: That's who I am now. I'm a citizen archivist, I joked—someone who just does it because the love for Detroit and its neighborhoods and Delray just really touched my heart from the first time I saw it.

Jeff Cranson: Well, talk about that history of the community and what was it about this particular Detroit village turned neighborhood on the city that intrigues you so much?

Karen Dybis: I had gotten interested in it because of a project where a particular resident of Delray in the 1930’s was accused of a crime. So, I was writing about that particular crime and that family, so I had to visit Delray. I wanted to see where she lived and kind of get a sense of the neighborhood, so the context was seeing photographs of a very vibrant, ethnic, or immigrant community, and then going out there to see the reality. This is around 2014 through 2015 and realizing that something very dramatic had happened between then and now. So, not only that kind of curiosity about what took place, but this idea of Delray being a working neighborhood, really I gravitated to that because I respect the hardworking aspect of Detroit, of Metro Detroit, of Michigan, you know, the Midwest. That's just something that's kind of ingrained in me. So, I connected to this place for no good reason other than it reminded me of my hometown and just had that very Detroit feel to it. So, reading more about it and then learning about the bridge caused me to do some more deep dives into Delray and what it happened over the last, you know, since the 1800s to today.

Jeff Cranson: So, when you say your hometown, what are you referencing?

Karen Dybis: Well, I'm from the thumb of Michigan. I'm from a city called Bad Axe, so that's a definite working town in Huron County and has a lot of connection to the water kind of like Delray in a strange way. My parents had retired to Port Huron. I'm sorry they are at Port Huron now, Port Austin, Michigan. So, just grindstone and those kind of cities really had that same feel that Delray does in some ways.

Jeff Cranson: Sure, so then that's interesting to me because there are a lot of neighborhoods in the city of Detroit, obviously, with a strong ethnic background and some of the blue-collar hardscrabble roots that you're talking about. So, what is it about Delray in particular, just more so than in some of those others, do you think that intrigued you so much?

Karen Dybis: Something I loved about it is I've been a longtime business reporter, so I gravitate to stories of how people start things or how things develop in terms of an entrepreneurial spirit. I really think Delray had that in a lot of very deep ways. It was the kind of neighborhood where it was dense in terms of home ownership so like duplexes and this multi-family unit for residential. Then from a business standpoint it had everything. You never had to leave the confines of Delray. You could go to the photographer, the florist, the baker, the grocer, the neighborhood candy store, you know, that sometimes doubled as like the soda shop, their community centers next to churches, and this was really—

Jeff Cranson: And all kinds of good food.

Karen Dybis: Yeah, a very hardy place as far as food and bars, and, you know, they lived very deeply, the people that called Delray Home. So, it had a wonderful tight-knit community feel that you sort of long for as someone like myself that is really fond downtowns and neighborhoods.

Jeff Cranson: Well, that's nice. Well, let's talk a little bit about the future then. As you know, the city’s Delray Neighborhood Framework Plan launched a little more than a year ago. One planning official told The Detroit News, for the story that you were quoted in, that it's not about long-term residential growth. What does that mean to you?

Karen Dybis: To me, I think it's one of the more respectful things you could do for that neighborhood. It is to understand that there are people with either emotional connections, or in a lot of cases I think they have financial burdens. They never maybe can't move necessarily as easily as other people could. Maybe their home value is declined, or maybe they just love that neighborhood. There's a lot of people really living their best life there in terms of having land and having kind of that open space. So, you can't go into that neighborhood thinking—again, there's environmental concerns and there's lots of reasons why they move, but the fact that some people don't want to move if you give them some quality of life, understanding that residential is not going to be redeveloped, and I don't know that you should. That's just me as an observer. That you give them some ways to continue to live there until there is a change, or until they may be able to move because of some shifts in the way the economy goes maybe further independent households. Whatever the reason, I appreciate the attention and care given to that neighborhood much more than maybe the average. That they have had sort of a they've been shoved in the back of the closet for a long time when there was contentiousness over where a bridge would go or could a bridge go there. Or were there some things that were going on in the background that the residents were promised, or they felt they were promised. There was so much conversation that took place that Delray didn't have a hand in it seemed like, so the fact that people actually are talking with them, offering suggestions, giving job training, you know, all the variety of ways that the city and the bridge through its management are working with people who choose to live there at this point, I think it's just, to me, one of the better things that could happen for a community that had very few people kind of on their side, for lack of a better term.

Jeff Cranson: No, I think that's true, and I think it's especially true. What I learned watching this process the past few years is that it's very naive of us to think that, you know, just large amounts of money, maybe more money than a lot of people ever thought they could get for their homes in Delray, was enough to satisfy them. There are some people that, you know, a home is a home, and the money doesn’t matter.

Karen Dybis: Well, this is a community, if you can kind of picture yourself, where women washed sidewalks and swept daily, if not, multiple times a day, where they planted these elaborate flower gardens that still bloom even though there's not a house there. It's magnificent and there are homes that are so well maintained and yards that have like bees and flower gardens. I mean, the people who choose to live there or have very strong memories of when their family did live there, it's so touching to me, it's so loving the emotions that are associated with Delray. I mean, about a week ago, I interviewed a woman who had grown up there in the 50s, and she can recall the names of every business around her family's home. It's so strong a memory for people that I really respect and actually feel a great kinship to the people that choose to live there in a way. I understand that sometimes it's not their so-called choice, but at the same time, I think they're making decisions that really reflect what's going on in their lives and—

Jeff Cranson: I haven't spent nearly as much time there as you have, but I've certainly noticed that in my in my time down there. So, you know, the planners have talked about the opportunities presented by the bridge—the city planners—and that the neighborhood can't just coexist, but it can thrive, I think, with these different combinations of long- term residents and non-residential development that's going to be spurred by the bridge. You've got good background on that, both from a business writer standpoint and from a cultural standpoint. So, is that—I mean, are you optimistic about that and how that coexistence will work?

Karen Dybis: I am and I would say for the first time in the times I've visited there, and again, this is a short-term relationship I have with Delray, you know, versus the people who grew up there or currently living there, so I want to respect that. But in my observations, I will say this is the first time I felt optimistic for Delray, you know, because these are the caretakers in a lot of cases who want to be there. Yes, there are people there that probably aren't the best maintenance of their properties, and there could be reasons for that, and I don't pretend to understand all the, you know, politics or what's going on. The people who are there that I've met, the children I've interacted with through the Community Center, through some volunteerism I did, or just, you know, get observation in going there through the years, I really love the people that take care of their properties. I want them to be able to have police protection, you know, good environment and to be able to thrive. I feel like this is the first time that I see where this place could be an in terms of cleanliness with the new, you know, barriers and art and different things that will be put aesthetically in place because of the bridge and because of Fort Wayne and different things that will happen over the next few years. I feel like there's going to be a quality of life that is respectful of every person's right to live safely in these great United States.

Jeff Cranson: Well said, and I think I've been impressed to watch the Government of Canada through the Windsor Detroit Bridge Authority, which is building the Gordie Howe International Bridge, in the way that they've reacted to the neighborhood and the people advocating for community benefits and the trust that's built up is the neighborhood. Like you said, they've had a lot of reasons not to trust institutions and government, and they've come to believe and see that the people building the bridge are very sincere about that and that good things are going to come—are already coming from those community benefits. So, you know, I think that you had some thoughtful comments about that in the news, too. Can you talk about that and what you've kind of witnessed along those lines?

Karen Dybis: The meetings between the bridge and the community are usually open to the public, and the ones I've been able to attend, especially pre-COVID, have been where there is a real back and forth between the community that is there and represents the residence and the bridge representative, so I've seen the open communication. I've spoken with them as part of a citizen archive project that I've worked with some of the bridge representatives and was really impressed with the sensitivity and the, again, respect level that they gave both myself, but that, you know, if they ever were to find something of importance, you know, whether it be archaeologically or culturally to the community, they wanted to be responsive and return that or create some way to honor that. So, through all these interactions, I've been so impressed and then observing through the Sandwich Community, you know, watching some of those meetings and seeing the indigenous people of that area be respected and honored through the bridge experience. Again, just as an outside observer I feel like there's a level of not only open communication but continued communication through the whole process. If you read through the Community Benefits paperwork, again, just as someone who's even just interested, as a resident of Michigan and adjacent to Canada, you see the amount of care they're going to give in helping people with job training and giving resources to a community that, very simply put, has not had access to resources in a very long time. That's super exciting to me and shows that long term timeframe that they're giving this.

Jeff Cranson: Yeah, that's nice. I didn't realize you had gone over to sandwich, too, because there's its own unique and very, very rich history there too, so—

Karen Dybis: Yeah, it's fascinating that two communities that have some of the deepest history for their particular areas were part of this, so it links them in a very special way. I hope that that is scene, and I would love to work with anybody if there was a chance to put up like a historical marker, like one of the Michigan history markers, just indicate that this was Delray and it's special. You know, those that's one of my life goals is to see something like that happen, and I feel like that there really is something that the bridge and the people working on the project are considerate of and want to maintain in a lot of ways.

Jeff Cranson: Yeah, that's an interesting thought. We will have to talk more about that. So, you know, speaking of Sandwich and the First Nations people, did you see the art that's—

Karen Dybis: Yes.

Jeff Cranson: Going on the construction towers? Isn't that beautiful?

Karen Dybis: Yeah, that is so exciting to me because, I mean, small things like the way that the pedestrian walkways will look to these bigger, more bolder pieces, you know, the choice of artists, the look of it, again, it reminds me of what's been done in like Eastern Market or the Dequindre Cut or some of these other art focused installations that change a city into a destination. That's something that, again, I think Detroit has really excelled at in the last 10 years, so it brings Delray into that. Boy, if there could be a small tourist attraction or some reason to come into Delray and support what is there, that excites me to no end because I really think there is opportunity for that in some way. If public art slash, you know, murals or artistic endeavors are encouraged I feel like that could be a really unique thing for not only the city but especially for the neighborhood. And, you know, maybe you don't want loitering and graffiti, but you can encourage this kind of artistic achievement. I think that is something that I really was so pleased to see in its development.

Jeff Cranson: Well, to a degree, I mean, in terms of a culinary art, I think there's a bit of a tourist attraction now in Mexicantown.

Karen Dybis: Oh yeah, I mean, the development of Southwest Detroit through not only financial encouragement of facades and streetscape but the cultural respectability of the restaurants and the diversity of the ethnic and, you know, international foods through restaurant weeks and work that's being done by Southwest Business Community Associations and things like that. If that spills toward Delray even more, you know, because you have beautiful landscape there are moments there that can be encouraged. We'll have to see how it develops because, you know, obviously we have a large industrial site and it's not necessarily the moment for this, but again, 10, 15, 20 years down the road a lot of potential, so that's what thrills me.

Jeff Cranson: Well, that's a question I was going to ask you given this very prescient and far thinking focus on community benefits and one environmental justice, which is very important to the city and the state and the federal government which has a hand in the bridge, obviously. What's your crystal ball tell you 10 years to 20 years from now?

Karen Dybis: Well, I can see where the people who live there can have a home that is safe, that's secure, that's, you know, a place to be proud of and that they want to invest in which is a new feeling that might be something exciting for that community. I see where there could be a Fort Wayne that is vibrant and maybe has some different kind of aspects to it that will bring more people to that community. I can see, you know, more tours of the area maybe because the history is so strong there, and you can bring people in to talk about Henry Ford, and you can bring them in to talk about a lot of landmark Detroit moments that happened in the area. Then I think you could build up some small—maybe a micro business corridor, depending on where, that could tap into some of the interest in Detroit as a whole, so maybe it's a block or two that could be developed. I don't know what's the potential, but I do see it there because, again, you're right by the water. I mean, this is a place of great beauty and beautiful parks and heartfelt people who really want to invest. I do see that in the next like I say, 10 to 20 years. It's not going to be immediate because there's so much more work to do, and we'll have to see how things play out especially economy wise. We had that wrinkle of 2020 thrown in, but, you know, some good people were lost who are deeply invested in Delray. I think more people will step up and it'll create excitement, and Detroit is just like an endless, I think, place where entrepreneurism and creativity is respected, and I think there's a pallet there in Delray that could really be used.

Jeff Cranson: That's really well said, and when you talk about the river and its role in all of this and what's already gone on in the eastern section of the river, and I'm happy to say that MDOT has had a real role with the RiverWalk and the development—

Karen Dybis: Yes.

Jeff Cranson: All these things are trending further west are just going to, you know, help activate the river even more and make it, you know, what it was originally. The whole reason that cities developed where they are is going to be part of their rebirth, and that's the water.

Karen Dybis: Yeah, I mean, some of the world's greatest cities not only Michigan's but the world's greatest cities are along water. That's really deep in Detroit's history is this love of the water, and, you know, just parks and other things that we can develop along there especially that RiverWalk, which is just an incredible asset that will only grow as people realize just how dynamic and lovely that is. That's one of my favorite things to support is the Detroit Riverfront in the RiverWalk and all that effort that's going in there. If even a tiny bit of that stretched toward Delray, I mean, I think that would be the feather in Detroit's cap, in a way, of showing respect to that community that really wanted to be something very special. It wanted to be its own city back in the early, you know, late 1800s, early 1900s it had big dreams. It became hard to Detroit through an annexation, but it can definitely stand out as one of its finest neighborhoods given the proper investment and a little TLC I think at this point.

Jeff Cranson: Well, I think you’re right in terms of extending, you know, the development along the river and the various uses. The fact that they will be non-motorized paths included on the—

Karen Dybis: Yes.

Jeff Cranson: Gordie Howe International Bridge is a great thing, too, so you can ride your bike from, you know, way East on the Detroit River on the Michigan side and crossover and explore Windsor and go even farther if you'd like to, so—

Karen Dybis: Yeah, I think if people have the vision for it. If they go in there and they see that there's still the cobblestone or brick streets in some parts of Delray, and there's lovely buildings, and there's a lot of heart there. So, I hope that as people see it more because of the bridge they're going to be like, ‘wow, I didn't know this existed,’ because sometimes when I speak of it, people look at me a little funny like, ‘are you sure you're talking about the same place that we are?’ I think you have to see beyond the current and really give it hope for the future by dreaming big, and I think that's the moment that we're having. It's a little bit different than where it was five years ago because I think it looks very different than it did five years ago, and you can't live in the past. You can honor it, but you kind of have to move forward and I think that's what this project is really trying to do.

Jeff Cranson: Well, later I'm going to talk to Mohammed Alghurabi, who's been the MDOT project manager on this bridge for quite a while now, many years through various incarnations in various names. He has worked very hard at building that trust in those relationships. And he has every bit as much respect for the people in the history of Delray as you do, so it's a very nice compliment. Karen, thank you so much for taking time to do this and for conducting these oral histories and helping to remember this important part of Detroit in Michigan's history.

Karen Dybis: Yeah, I'm honored in any way, shape, and form to be associated with Delray, and I really appreciate the efforts that are being made there. So, thank you for reaching out and including me in this conversation around it.

Jeff Cranson: We're back on the Talking Michigan Transportation Podcast, and as promised we're going to talk a little bit with Mohammed Alghurabi, who is the project manager on the Gordie Howe International Bridge. He probably has a long perspective, even longer than Karen, who offered us some tremendous insight into her views as an independent observer of the project and what it's going to mean to this historically rich neighborhood. So, Muhammad, talk about your history with the bridge through its various incarnations and how long you've been working with the community members.

Mohammed Alghurabi: Thank you, Jeff. I am so blessed to say for the last going on—starting in 2004, so going on for 16 years I've been working on this great project. The greatest project in our lifetime and working with the finest community on the planet. And I say that from the bottom of my heart because I fell in love with the community of Delray. They are just true and true when it comes to their passion, their love for their community, their love for the multi generation, and they do it in a very, very honorable way.

Jeff Cranson: Yeah, well, you say that, and you said this from the bottom of your heart, but you've also expressed warm feelings about the other communities where you worked on projects. So, what is it? This is, you know, kind of the same question I posed to Karen. What is it that is so special that you find so much more touching about Delray than some other places you've worked?

Mohammed Alghurabi: I'll tell you and this is probably really hard even to say it, and I got to be very careful when I say it that I don't say it and it comes in a pejorative way. When we made our first step in Delray you look around and, you know, you smell the air, you watch the deterioration, you watch the benign neglect. This is something they'll tell you about because their heart hurts because of what's going on, but at the same time they have so much pride about it because their great grandparents, grandparents, or their relatives or their family members have lived in that community for years and years and years. That's the thing that makes it special and different from any other community that I worked in is even though it might not look as other communities where they don't have the issues that Delray has, they love it as much if not more. That created a soft spot in my heart to say who am I to think, or especially bringing a project to the area, that I'm going to displace homes and businesses and it might not be a big deal in my mind. For a second, I regretted it for that second because I was told very clearly and adamantly that I was dead wrong, and that I cannot think that way because for them they have a lot of pride in it, and they love it as much if not more than any other places where they don't have that benign neglect.

Jeff Cranson: So, talk about how long you've been down there and, you know, your incredible patience and your personal history with this project that at one time was the Detroit International Bridge Crossing and then it was a New International Trade Crossing and then it was the Gordie Howe International Bridge. I suppose in its earliest conception it was just, you know, known as another bridge, so go back in history with us a bit.

Mohammed Alghurabi: Well, it started way in the early 2000. I think that's the first handshake I'm told about it because I was not part of it, but I was told that's the first handshake between representatives from Federal Highway Administration, Michigan Department Transportation, and the Canadian Government where they got together and started talking about this concept called the new bridge. And again, I didn't get involved until a few years later after the completion of the planning needed feasibility, which kind of laid the foot grounds for going forward with an environmental impact statement, so we could take that information to start locating where the new bridge ought to be. So, that started in 2004, so like I was saying, Jeff, it's been going on 16, 17 years in the making of this incredible project.

Jeff Cranson: Yeah, I think what I've noticed, and I've watched now for the years that I've been involved and been down there for various public meetings and media events, is the relationships that you built up and the trust that you've built up in the community because you clearly care about the people and they know that. You've been an advocate and worked closely with the Windsor Detroit Bridge Authority as they've developed the Community Benefits Plan, which has been well received and is somewhat pioneering in it's scope, I think, for the community. Talk about why that's so important to get to know the people and build that trust.

Mohammed Alghurabi: Well, I'm a professional engineer, and I solemnly swore when I took that helm to become a civil engineer is to serve the people who I would represent and getting to know the people and getting to know their life story, how much they care about their livelihood and the community they live in. It’s fundamental to me to serve them in a way that I ought to serve them and make be faithful to them under the oath that I've given. So, to get to know someone and tell them that I am here, I'm from the government, and I'm here to help you, but in their mind you're here to displace me. You're here to take my home away. You're here to destroy my neighborhood. You're here to do all the negative things, but to live through that and watch—I'm lucky in a way, Jeff, that I could stay in that position not only alive and well, but also have contained that position because most people they move on to the next job. Then they, the people, the community themselves don't get to witness that promise that was made, so here I said to them, I'll work with you. I will do my best. I will do the right thing, but sometimes are you going to live to see that through? I did and not just me, it's not me, it's really the Department. The Michigan Department transportation does an incredible job in serving the community and keeping its word. That's their mission statement is to serve the people and do a great job in providing the highest, you know, transportation services. So, again, just to summarize, the relationship is fundamental because people will remember what you say and they'll hold you to it. They'll keep watching to see are you going to keep your word, or are you going to just talk and never walk the walk? And I'm here to tell you that I think with the promises that were made on this project it was delivered. It may not be 100%, but I think if you talk to most people, and I will never speak for anybody from the community, but I hope they will tell you that the project has done good by the community and that's a huge testimony.

Jeff Cranson: So, why don't you recap a little bit of the update that was in The Detroit News story that prompted our conversations with you and Karen on where we stand in terms of acquiring the property in Detroit for the physical building of the bridge, and what still needs to happen.

Mohammed Alghurabi: I think this is really good to watch, you know, the latest and greatest in terms of when somebody observed that we have 636 properties or parcels that we needed and we were able to complete that and basically be able to demonstrate that there is there is a accountability and great work that was done throughout that process. So, I mean, again, I think Karen did a really great job and demonstrating that story about what took place. The article was spot on again, talking about the transformation of the livelihood of people in the community. And, again, what to expect from this bridge project, and he at least it showed that the bridge has done good by the community. And again, that's really again from the people’s mouth. It's what's important, not what I would say here.

Jeff Cranson: Well, and just some incredible heavy lifting and negotiations and interpersonal relationships and contact that had to be built up in that trust. It had to be built up to acquire 636 parcels, some residential, some commercial, and again that's just for the actual physical building of the bridge. We still got a handful that will need for some storm water runoff and for some rail Spurs, but it's quite an accomplishment that the real estate division and you've worked closely with them, and you've leveraged a lot of those same relationships to get this far, but I mean really in all the projects you've worked on and you've worked on some big ones, including the States, newest freeways, still the state's newest freeway, M-6 and West Michigan. I mean, have you ever seen anything like this in terms of the property acquisition?

Mohammed Alghurabi: The no. I mean, I think this is this is more complex, more complicated. Again, the M6 South Beltline. It was a green Greenfield and as much as possible. I mean it has its own issues. But when it comes to this one, it's an urban setting, and it has all kind of complications, so you can compare the two on with all the respect. I mean, it just makes it apples to oranges compared, but—

Jeff Cranson: Yeah, so this was all this was. This was very new to you and it's an experience that a lot will be said and written about, but it probably isn't anything that will be duplicated in our lifetimes.

Mohammed Alghurabi: Absolutely.

Jeff Cranson: Well, thanks, Mohammed, that's nice. It’s a nice compliment to Karen's comments and her very thoughtful analysis of the project and what's going on. I appreciate it, and I'm sure we'll be talking again over the next couple of years as this bridge starts to really take shape and tower over both Detroit and Windsor.

Mohammed Alghurabi: Thank you so much.

Jeff Cranson: Thanks again for listening to this week's edition of Talking Michigan Transportation, and I want to give a special thanks to Cory Petee, who does the sound engineering for the podcast, and to Sarah Martin, of MDOT, who does the show's intro and closing.

Narrator: That's a wrap for this edition of Talking Michigan Transportation. Check out show notes and more by subscribing on Apple podcast.

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