In recognition of Earth Day, this week’s Talking Michigan Transportation podcast features a conversation with Margaret Barondess, who manages the environmental section at the Michigan Department of Transportation (MDOT).
More than 50 years ago, Congress adopted the National Environmental Policy Act (NEPA). Barondess reflects and explains how the act informs planning for transportation projects in Michigan and MDOT’s efforts to at once protect our air, waterways, wildlife, and plants and minimize inconvenience to travelers.
While critics of NEPA have argued for scaling back the need for environmental impact statements, supporters tout NEPA’s role in saving money, time, lives, historical sites, endangered species, and public lands while encouraging compromise and cultivating better projects with more public support.
Barondess also talks about the challenges and rewards she and her team have experienced in recent years from listening to community members who would be affected by a project like the I-94 modernization project in Detroit and the I-75 Corridor Conservation Action Plan in Monroe County.
Among specific endangered species in Michigan is the eastern massasauga rattlesnake.
Other references:
The Detroit Free Press this week ranked invasive species in Michigan. (Subscription)
The Natural Resources Defense Council on the imperative of maintaining NEPA.
Creative MDOT efforts to support Michigan’s critical bee population with sun flowers along freeways.
Some creative solutions to protect wildlife and political theater.
In recognition of Earth Day, this week’s Talking Michigan Transportation podcast features a conversation with Margaret Barondess, who manages the environmental section at the Michigan Department of Transportation (MDOT).
More than 50 years ago, Congress adopted the National Environmental Policy Act (NEPA). Barondess reflects and explains how the act informs planning for transportation projects in Michigan and MDOT’s efforts to at once protect our air, waterways, wildlife, and plants and minimize inconvenience to travelers.
While critics of NEPA have argued for scaling back the need for environmental impact statements, supporters tout NEPA’s role in saving money, time, lives, historical sites, endangered species, and public lands while encouraging compromise and cultivating better projects with more public support.
Barondess also talks about the challenges and rewards she and her team have experienced in recent years from listening to community members who would be affected by a project like the I-94 modernization project in Detroit and the I-75 Corridor Conservation Action Plan in Monroe County.
Among specific endangered species in Michigan is the eastern massasauga rattlesnake.
Other references:
The Detroit Free Press this week ranked invasive species in Michigan. (Subscription)
The Natural Resources Defense Council on the imperative of maintaining NEPA.
Creative MDOT efforts to support Michigan’s critical bee population with sun flowers along freeways.
Some creative solutions to protect wildlife and political theater.
[Music]
Jeff Cranson: Hello, this is the Talking Michigan Transportation podcast, where we talk about all things related to mobility. I'm Jeff Cranson. Today, in honor of Earth Day, I'm taking a look at how transportation agencies follow environmental protection policies. MDOT and other transportation agencies around the country pay very close attention to the National Environmental Policy Act, known as NEPA, and it's worth noting that the act was adopted by Congress in 1969 and not even one year later, Joni Mitchell released ‘Big Yellow Taxi.’
Joni Mitchell: (singing) They paved paradise and put up a parking lot.
Cranson: My guest today is Margaret Barondess, who manages MDOT’s environmental section and brings a very informed and thoughtful approach to these issues. So, Margaret, thank you for being here, and tell me how you balance paving paradise and mobility, if not putting up parking lots.
Margaret Barondess: So, in a lot of ways, I look at my career at MDOT and the environment as a translator and a navigator of environmental laws for our engineering staff and, you know, they're great. Just working with the engineers is wonderful because they are ‘get it done’ people. They want to build things. They want to go out there and make things better for Michigan citizens and make their mobility better, so, you know, how could you ask for more? You're working with a pretty well-intentioned crowd there. But, often, my job Is to say, ‘Now, let's just slow down a minute and talk, talk it through.’ And my other part of my job is to explain the context for what they're doing. ‘So where is your project located? Are there people who live near it? Are there people who might be affected by the work that you're going to be doing and the changes that you're going to be making? Are you in an area with lots of natural resources? Could you be affecting an endangered species?’ Sometimes we have to do extra studies to find out answers to those questions. And, you know, it's hard sometimes to put the brakes on all of this momentum that we've got, but it's a worthwhile effort because what you end up with is a project that is better than it was before. It truly is an effort to balance environmental impacts with transportation needs. And I feel like we've had so many success stories over the years where we did sort of slow down a little bit and take our time to listen to experts on particular resources, to communities that felt that there needed to be changed with the transportation facility in their neighborhood. We've really taken our time to learn how to be better neighbors to both the natural and the populated environment, the cities that are projects go through, so—
Cranson: I think you hit on the inherent conflict in this. And a former journalism colleague of mine used to say ‘Everybody looks in the mirror and sees an environmentalist.’ You know, we all like to think that we do our part, but everybody also likes their 20-minute commute to always be 20 minutes. So, when you talk about the engineers and how, you know, they are worried about mobility and the things that they get the most complaints about and making sure that projects can be done as timely as possible with the least inconvenience as possible, it can be pretty tough sometimes to balance that with when you find out that a stream is going to be disrupted or an endangered species, wildlife, or plant can be disrupted. So, you mentioned, you know, some of the successes, what would you talk about as some highlights in recent years?
Barondess: Well, some of my favorite projects have been in urban areas where we had problems that we needed to solve. We have very old infrastructure in Michigan because of our transportation history with automobile manufacturing, we were really early out of the gate building the interstate system. And even before the Interstate system we were building freeway types of roads. So, we were a world leader in design and trying new things before the Interstate Highway Act was passed. So, what we're looking at often in urban areas is some very old design which really doesn't fit anymore what's happening in that community. So, some of the best projects are projects like the I-94 Mega Project in Detroit where we were able to really listen to what the community was telling us about the freeway and how it divided their neighborhoods. So, there, we took the bridges and the pedestrian overpasses and we're converting all of them into complete streets facilities which will feel like a neighborhood street when you cross it, less like I'm out on a little rope bridge over the freeway. Of course, we don't have rope bridges, but some of those pedestrian overpasses are pretty intimidating, and people don't use them, often don't use them. So, what we're doing there, I think, has been very rewarding with respect to responding to what we heard from people who live there, in the city of Detroit, and trying to provide better community connectivity.
Cranson: Well, that's a good example because it's not, you know, what people think of first when they think of the environment, they're thinking of the physical environment and waterways and, you know, endangered species, and you're talking about kind of the social impact and social justice impact.
Barondess: You're right, Jeff. A lot of people don't understand that NEPA, the National Environmental Policy Act, doesn't just apply to what we call the bugs and bunnies and the plants that are out there. It also applies to communities and to people, to economic impacts. So, we're looking at all aspects of the environment, the human environment, in addition to the natural one.
Cranson: Yeah, so when you think of that success—that's a good one, and I think another one in recent years would be the I-75 corridor in Monroe county and the Conservation Action Plan, which you helped author and work very hard. I mean, would you count that as a success?
Barondess: That's a great project for the environment. The freeway is very close to Lake Erie, which is a very important ecological resource for a lot of people, not just in Michigan but outside of Michigan. And we were able to put together a conservation plan for the whole 20-mile corridor of the freeway that's going to be rebuilt. So, as each project comes up, we know what we need to do for the natural resources that are there. You know, a lot of people drive on the freeway like that and say, ‘What natural resources?’ Well, it's kind of an amazing place because the freeway is sort of a preserve for prairie like plants, so there's an abundance of rare plants in that area, and we've been able to partner with Sterling State Park to move some of those plants to their prairie restoration area because of the Corridor Conservation Plan that we did on I-75. So that's just one example, of several, related to that particular project, and, yeah, I think that is a success for the environment.
Cranson: Yeah, absolutely. Well, let's also, while we're touching on that, talk about some of the things you probably don't want to revisit, some controversies over the years, like the turtle fence on US-31 in Grand Haven. What's your memory of that episode?
Barondess: Oh boy, the turtle fence, yeah, you know, sometimes we do things that a community supports, and the turtle fence was a fence that we put into block turtles from crossing US-31. Now, turtles in this area were abundant, and we actually did a survey to find out how many turtles had been killed over the course of a year trying to cross this road, and it was pretty appalling, the results of the survey. And, you know, this is also a human safety issue too because some of these turtles are quite large and you really don't want to hit one of them with your vehicle.
Cranson: Well, that's right, people swerve, you know, and things can happen and that's, yeah, that's often forgotten by the people who demagogues these issues, that there is a human component. So, I'm glad you pointed that out.
Barondess: Absolutely, so this became a high priority for us to try to mitigate, to do something to stop it, so we installed a fence. And the fence basically—the turtles would follow the fence to a culvert that went under the road and they were able to get to the other side by using that culvert. So, it was a really great project ecologically, and also, I thought, a good safety project, and it was relatively low cost. But, you know, the hit we took there was it's not pavement. It's not a bridge, it's for the turtles. Well, you know, it's about that balance and this was a very serious situation for both people and turtles, and we were able to come up with a low-cost solution that basically fixed the problem.
Cranson: Yeah, it's not like we're the only DOT wrestling with such things.
Barondess: No, all of us do in transportation, and I think so many people take for granted the roads and bridges that they're on with respect to ‘This is just part of my daily routine. I use this every day. This is always been here. It's a great thing, I'm glad I have it but it's just part of the background.’ And I think your transportation system is so much more than that, your right-of-way. We're the second largest property owner in the state of Michigan. You know, we have a lot of stewardship for that property that goes on, for safety. There's so many different purposes that right-of-way is used for. We use it for pollinator species, for example. Our right-of-way is a great place for prairie plants and pollinator plants to grow to help the farmers with the bee population problem. So, you know, there's a lot more to your transportation system than you might think.
Cranson: Yeah, so, you know, speaking of that, we've done some good things along those lines in the Bay Region. Can you talk about some of those?
Barondess: So, with the pollinators and the Bay Region, they've done something that I think is really caught people's eye, and that is with the sunflower plantings that they've done within the medians of some of the freeways up in their region. And it's not only good for the bees, but it's really an aesthetic improvement, I think, for people who, you know, it can be kind of monotonous driving down a freeway through rural areas and there's something for you to see there that's quite beautiful. So, I think that is a great example of, again, a low cost, easy to implement thing that benefits people and the natural environment.
Cranson: I think that, you know, those things, those success stories, and the things we've discovered along the way are so important and especially when you bring up, you know, the human element. And what some western provinces in Canada have done and some Western states now in the U.S. have done with creating very effective wildlife crossings, you know, tunnels underneath freeways and the animals find their way and learn to use them. And that, obviously, isn't just about protecting the life of the animals, that's really important to the safety of people traveling on those freeways.
Barondess: That is true, absolutely true, and we have done some of those projects too where we put up fencing to channel wildlife, and I think I it mentioned in the turtle fence example. It's all about channeling the wildlife to a safe place, so there's no conflict between what the people are doing on the road with their vehicles and the animals.
Cranson: Yeah.
Barondess: So, it is good for both of us.
Cranson: So, talk a little bit about—I think one of the one of the species that we hear a lot about, and our friends at the DNR talk about, is the eastern massasauga rattlesnake. A lot of people don't even know there's a venomous snake in Michigan and saying it that way sounds a lot more ominous than it is because we know it's a very shy creature who would just as soon avoid people. But have we had some success in our efforts with the snake?
Barondess: Absolutely, we have a wildlife ecologist who works at MDOT, who has been working for a number of years on ways to protect the snake, especially during construction activities. Like a lot of snakes, they like to sun themselves. So, if there's a wooded area, for example, near their habitat, then they may be sunning themselves on the roadside, and we don't want to get in their way when they're doing that because they are an endangered species. So, we have put up fencing from construction projects, and it'll be what we call the soil erosion fence. It's the short black fence that you see on MDOT projects all the time. And it's really to keep soil from eroding into the natural water system, but we've also used it to keep snakes out of our construction zones. So, we've also looked at habitat and maybe providing some opportunities for snakes to get from one side of the road to the other by putting up fencing that directs them in a certain way. We've also on I-75 in Monroe county, it's not the rattlesnake, it's a different snake, but we've put up a curb that they can get up on to escape the freeway because if the curb is something they can't climb up on, then there stuck on the freeway. So, often the snakes will be near bridges because the bridges are over water and that tends to be a habitat place for wildlife. So, we've used special curbs that the snakes can crawl up on.
Cranson: And that's proven to be effective?
Barondess: It is and it's a good thing for the snakes. We've seen dead snakes we found during surveys right on the curb side, so, you know, they're vulnerable out there and they need to be able to have an escape route. So, again, simple, simple solutions but it takes somebody who has the training to understand what the snake is doing and where it's going and what its habits are to help MDOT engineers come up with solutions like that.
Cranson: So, what's informed your thinking about this? I mean, you've gained knowledge over the years doing this. It should go without explanation, but to a lot of people, you know, it's probably like, ‘Okay, maybe turtles, I get that because, you know, we all like turtles, but snakes like, so what, you know, nobody likes snakes.’ How did you come to explain to others and, you know, just advocate for an entire ecosystem? That it's not about the creatures that you like in the creatures you don't like. They're all part of the ecosystem and we need them all.
Barondess: It is about diversity, and that's a concept that's really critical to understanding environmental protection. And we need diversity as a human species in the natural world for a variety of reasons, you know. Again, we need bees to help us with our food sources. We need as many different kinds of bees as we can get. So, diversity is important with respect to pollinators, and I think a lot of people are familiar with the monarch butterfly situation out there and that they are in trouble. So, we need that diversity. We are part of that ecosystem, and we can be a pretty heavy-handed part of the ecosystem. We get our way most of the time, and I think with greater understanding about the need for diversity and that you need predators, you need prey, you need different kinds of plants. There are different habitats. There are benefits out there for people, as well, in preserving that diversity.
Cranson: Yeah, well said. I think that's right. We've, as humans, got the intelligence and the power to be heavy handed, as you say, but with that intelligence also, you know it means an obligation and understanding of what all these things mean in a way that other species obviously, you know, wouldn't be able to control. So, I think that's a really good point. What else would you want to say about your work, your sections work, and your very dedicated group that shows tremendous patience working with all of the various factions on all these things. I guess, what would you want people to know that you think they might not?
Barondess: I think one thing is that, yeah, we're a Department of Transportation, but were much more than just about roads and bridges. We’re about protecting the environment. We're about making communities better, looking for input from people, from experts on how we can do a better job in making mobility projects happen in ways that seek balance with the environment. So, you know, a lot of people don't know that we have an archaeologist. We have couple of historians. We have ecologists, biologists, and I have a botanist who helps us do these things. So, we have diversity within our own area, within MDOT, and our one of our missions is constant education and outreach, so our engineers can understand the world in which the transportation network exists, and that it's pretty complicated out there, but we are working on answers with the engineers to try to make that balance happen between environment and mobility.
Cranson: And so, what you heard often in recent years, especially out of Washington, you know, was we got to expedite these projects. We've got to be able to cut through the red tape and one person's red tape is another person’s, you know, environmental protection. So, what's your answer to that? In terms of protecting NEPA, I mean, there's a whole website out about protecting NEPA because there's a group of people that feel that it's under assault. So, how would you answer the idea that that it all just creates delays that slow progress and, you know, hurt business development?
Barondess: I think sometimes that you have to look at how are you defining progress, and what does that mean? Is progress simply business development? That's certainly part of progress, but I think progress is also protecting the animals and the plants that, in the future, could hold secrets to help us with our own problems, who are performing functions we don't even understand they’re performing. Do you want to be the last person who says goodbye to the last rattlesnake? To the last bee? No, I think if we sit back and we consider our world as a whole that there's room for the environment and for economic development.
Cranson: Well, that's very well said. I appreciate you taking the time to do this, and I hope you have an enjoyable Earth Day. And we will have to talk about this again sometime.
Barondess: Well, thank you, Jeff. I really enjoyed our talk today.
Cranson: Thank you again for listening to this week's edition of the Talking Michigan Transportation podcast. I would like to thank Randy Debler and Corey Petee for engineering this week's podcast. To subscribe to show notes and more, go to Apple podcasts and search for Talking Michigan Transportation.