On the latest Talking Michigan Transportation podcast, a conversation about the ongoing process to rethink the 1-mile I-375 freeway in Detroit and consider other alternatives.
First, Margaret Barondess, manager of the environmental section at the Michigan Department Transportation, talks about the ongoing discussions that could reconnect neighborhoods near downtown Detroit, severed decades ago when I-375 was built. She recounts the history and environmental justice issues shaping the current discussion.
Later, Michigan Lt. Gov. Garlin Gilchrist joins the podcast to offer his perspective on the project as a native of Detroit and someone who spent part of his childhood in the neighborhood previously disrupted by the freeway.
While discussions about restoring the I-375 corridor to an urban boulevard date back several years, the conversation has added resonance because U.S. Department of Transportation Secretary Pete Buttigieg has put an emphasis on connectivity and rethinking freeways.
In the wake of another catastrophic rainstorm that caused flooding across the Detroit area, Barondess explains the history behind building recessed freeways and the benefits: keeping the city street system intact, needing less property for the right of way, and limiting the noise in neighborhoods.
During his segment, the lieutenant governor talks about what he learned from his parents and others about the residents and businesses displaced by the freeway in the Blackbottom and Paradise Valley neighborhoods. He explains why he’s pleased that the Biden administration wants to create equitable communities and restore opportunities for prosperity. He recounts the wealth lost in what was one of the most thriving black business districts in the country.
Other references:
The Detroit News (subscription) https://www.detroitnews.com/in-depth/news/local/detroit-city/2021/03/23/interstate-375-detroit-racism-black-bottom-paradise-valley-mdot-aretha-franklin/4715658001/?build=native-web_i_t
https://www.nbcnews.com/specials/america-highways-inequality/
Podcast photo: Director Ajegba, Mayor Duggan, Lt. Gov. Gilchrist, and Gov. Whitmer tour and discuss I-375 improvement project.
On the latest Talking Michigan Transportation podcast, a conversation about the ongoing process to rethink the 1-mile I-375 freeway in Detroit and consider other alternatives.
First, Margaret Barondess, manager of the environmental section at the Michigan Department Transportation, talks about the ongoing discussions that could reconnect neighborhoods near downtown Detroit, severed decades ago when I-375 was built. She recounts the history and environmental justice issues shaping the current discussion.
Later, Michigan Lt. Gov. Garlin Gilchrist joins the podcast to offer his perspective on the project as a native of Detroit and someone who spent part of his childhood in the neighborhood previously disrupted by the freeway.
While discussions about restoring the I-375 corridor to an urban boulevard date back several years, the conversation has added resonance because U.S. Department of Transportation Secretary Pete Buttigieg has put an emphasis on connectivity and rethinking freeways.
In the wake of another catastrophic rainstorm that caused flooding across the Detroit area, Barondess explains the history behind building recessed freeways and the benefits: keeping the city street system intact, needing less property for the right of way, and limiting the noise in neighborhoods.
During his segment, the lieutenant governor talks about what he learned from his parents and others about the residents and businesses displaced by the freeway in the Blackbottom and Paradise Valley neighborhoods. He explains why he’s pleased that the Biden administration wants to create equitable communities and restore opportunities for prosperity. He recounts the wealth lost in what was one of the most thriving black business districts in the country.
Other references:
The Detroit News (subscription) https://www.detroitnews.com/in-depth/news/local/detroit-city/2021/03/23/interstate-375-detroit-racism-black-bottom-paradise-valley-mdot-aretha-franklin/4715658001/?build=native-web_i_t
https://www.nbcnews.com/specials/america-highways-inequality/
Podcast photo: Director Ajegba, Mayor Duggan, Lt. Gov. Gilchrist, and Gov. Whitmer tour and discuss I-375 improvement project.
[Music]
Jeff Cranson: Hello, this is the Talking Michigan Transportation podcast. I'm Jeff Cranson, director of communications at the Michigan Department of Transportation.
[Music]
Cranson: This week, the conversation focuses on I-375 in Detroit in some ambitious plans to rethink that freeway corridor. First, I’ll be talking with Margaret Barondess, manages the environmental section at MDOT and has a well-informed perspective on the process for replacing a freeway with an at-grade boulevard. And in the wake of last weekend's heavy rains and flooding in Detroit, she also talks about why freeways were built below grade and the challenges that presents with increasingly volatile weather caused by climate change. Later, I’ll speak with Michigan Lieutenant Governor Garlin Gilchrist, who spent some of his childhood in the Black Bottom neighborhood, which was greatly disrupted years earlier when I-75 was built. But first, I want to hear from Margaret because she has the technical knowledge and, you know, the background on this kind of thing. So, Margaret, tell me, I guess, in highest level terms, you know, what this means to you being able to rethink what is the 375 corridor.
Margaret Barondess: So, to me, it's a really exciting opportunity, from an environmental impact standpoint, to consider past and present contexts and think about the future. And, you know, National Environmental Policy Act is a great process that helps us put all those pieces together and come up with a plan for transportation facility. And this is the first time in my 30 years here at MDOT that we have been able to look at decommissioning a freeway facility in an urban area. So, this presented challenges and opportunities to really look at the past, the present, and the future and come up with a design that met the needs of transportation but also the community. And that is really the essence of the National Environmental Policy Act is balance between transportation needs and community needs and the environmental goals that we have for the natural resources in the area. Because water, for example, as we just heard with some of the flooding in the Detroit area yesterday, and management of water is a very current topic. And I-375 is going to have to manage water in its future iteration with the new project that will go in there too, and we hope to use some best practices in managing that water for the future. So, it's about community and natural resources and balancing those with transportation. And that is truly one of the most exciting things about the project that it is, I think, looking at some very successful balancing of those needs.
Cranson: Well, and it dovetails nicely because, you know, MDOT has been talking about and working on this to one degree or another for, you know, more than seven years now. You've got an administration with President Biden and USDOT Secretary Pete Buttigieg who are very interested in looking at these kinds of things and, you know, rethinking them, maybe thinking about connectivity that, you know, was severed years ago when these freeways were put in, and 375 is almost like a case study in that. But since you mentioned the water in the drainage, which is very much in the news, obviously, after the weekend, talk a little bit about that because of your background with the National Environmental Policy Act. It is something you and I touched on around Earth Day on the podcast. What was the reasoning behind building recessed freeways in the first place?
Barondess: So, historically, recessed freeways were looked upon actually as a more urban friendly type of freeway design because if you could use retaining walls for your freeway design and pump stations, which would pump water out of a depressed freeway, then you would have less of an impact on the community. So, for example, if you look at some of the more suburban and rural freeway designs, they use ditches to manage water. And, you know, this facility uses underground pipes and pump stations to manage water. And, you know, when we see the flooding, what happens is the pump stations can't keep up with the amount of water that's coming in, and they're collectors for water, these depressed freeways. But historically, and that's why you see so many of them in Detroit, when you built a depressed freeway, you could save costs and impacts because you would have to purchase less property for those types of facilities. The other benefit that a lot of early planners saw with the depressed cross-section was that you could kind of keep the city street system somewhat intact. When you were building those, you would build the overpass bridges that would connect to the local street grid. And the idea was that less of the traffic impacts: the sounds, the emissions, all the unpleasant things that come with lots of traffic were down below and sort of out of the view of the neighborhood too. So, in a way, those were early on, you know, trying to save money but also, they were looked upon as benefit.
Cranson: Well, I think what we found out with the, you know, frequency of these weather events, which we knew were going to increase in frequency because of what's going on with the climate, and you're going to have these deluges where more rain comes in a shorter amount of time that, yeah, it might not matter how many pumps you have and how big they are. There's only so much you can do to move water. And if the creeks and rivers that are the outlets for the water are swollen themselves, there's no place for the water to go. Do you have any sense of how big an issue this is in other parts of the country with recessed freeways? I mean, this can't be unique to Detroit, can it?
Barondess: So, there is something unique about Detroit and our freeway system. Detroit is actually, geographically, part of the old lake plain for the extensive, you know, water system that we've got here: the Detroit River, Lake Erie, Lake St. Clair. So, topographically, Detroit was a low, flat, you know, swampy part of the state, and, you know, you can't take that away very easily when you build a city at that location. So, you know, a lot of flooding depends on your geography and your location. So, I think there are probably other cities that have those experiences, but I’m not as familiar with those situations. So, I couldn't really say which city, but I would say Detroit has some pretty unique challenges when it comes to water.
Cranson: Well, as you said, I think restoring this to an at-grade boulevard will present some other drainage challenges, but I think those will be easier to deal with than when you're basically turning these recessed freeways into rivers in these heavy rainstorms. Talk about some of the other advantages of, you know, going back to an urban boulevard, an at-grade street, and the opportunities that it creates.
Barondess: So, some of the biggest advantages in going to an at-grade boulevard are really related to how a city functions with respect to mobility and all different types of mobility including pedestrians, bicyclists, also transit users as well. Because, really, when you look at a depressed freeway section, there's not a lot of flexibility in what you can do for other types of modes of transportation because it is set aside just for vehicular traffic. So, when you go to an at-grade facility, you have so many more choices with where people can walk, ride bikes, use transit because that mainline facility itself is now open to all those different modes. And you have maybe more choices with respect to cross streets and what you can do with those because we have to remember bridges are very expensive. So, you know, when you're building a freeway through a city you think carefully about how many bridges you're going to put and where put those bridges. But in an at-grade situation, you have a lot more flexibility because everything's on the same level. So, you have reduced costs with respect to looking at how you get people across that road. So, that's where your flexibility is, and that is an exciting part of this project too because it is heavily based upon pedestrian flow, bicycle flow. In fact, one of the components of it is to put in a cycle track, which is basically a dedicated space for bicyclists.
Cranson: And a protected space.
Barondess: Correct. A protected, dedicated space. It's a very safe space for cyclists. So, you know, again, having that extra room because the at-grade boulevard takes up less space than a freeway. So, this is one of the few projects I’ve ever worked on where we actually have extra space that is coming out of the project, which is also very exciting because you can look at other uses for that extra space.
Cranson: Well, and on top of those extra uses, it sounds like, you know, project managers are talking with federal highway about possibly using some of that land for something that honors the history of that area in that neighborhood.
Barondess: So, this project has over 30 acres of excess property and, in my career, I’ve never seen that happen. Usually, we're buying property, we're not, you know, getting rid of property, so to speak, here that we don't need for transportation anymore. So, this is very unique for us, and that's quite a bit of space excess property in an urban environment.
Cranson: Yeah.
Barondess: So, you're right, you have opportunities for multiple types of purposes. During public involvement, people said that they want the story of I-375 and the Black Bottom and Paradise neighborhoods to be told, and that everyone should know what happened with the construction of the freeway and how it affected those neighborhoods. So, we have opportunities to tell that story as well, and when I say ‘we,’ I mean the community because it's the community story. And we're here to facilitate the community telling their own story about what has happened there.
Cranson: Yeah, and we'll hear a little bit of that later from the lieutenant governor, who was obviously not born yet when the freeway was built, but because he spent some of his early childhood in that area, he has a real sense of in the sense of the history. But what do you think, you know, when you hear these stories, yet you work, you know, for a department of transportation where people, not you, certainly, but people made these decisions 60, 70 years ago, maybe even more so in terms of the planning, that went into these things, what were they thinking at the time? I mean, is it as simple as they just wanted to get people from point A to point B and anything that was in their way, you know, was disregarded? I mean, is it that simple?
Barondess: I think it's actually pretty complex. I do believe that the interstate system itself was a force to be reckoned with all over the country and in cities everywhere. In the United States, we made choices with our cities in the interstate system that were often devastating to parts of those cities. And to me, that has to do with a larger societal perspective on what a city is and how a city should function and, you know, the beliefs at the time where in order to keep my city viable, I have to have a freeway in the middle of the city. Especially in Detroit, where, you know, they were showcasing the automobile, so we're going to have the most advanced freeway system in the world here in Wayne County because we're going to showcase what can happen using this technology. So, you know, Detroit has, again, a very, I think, interesting, unique tie with respect to the automobile industry. Now, what people didn't know were some of the unintended consequences of building these major infrastructure projects through cities. And you see, you know, probably a lack of an awareness there about what was happening. In some cases, you see some people with potentially good intentions of urban renewal, you know. I see old parts of the city that we need to probably eliminate here. And I’m not going to apologize for, you know, what was happening in the past because I do think there were some ill intents as well, but I think of it as a pretty complex situation at the time and reflective of where America was with respect to its cities.
Cranson: And what our view of development and progress was at the time.
Barondess: Exactly.
Cranson: Well, you know, looking forward, we've applied for a RAISE grant, which is a new round of grants that the USDOT is offering to do some planning. The hope, obviously, and the governor talked about this in some media interviews last week, is that this kind of paves the way, puts it higher on the radar of the federal government, and maybe makes it eligible for more federal money so that we can expedite it. I mean, what's your fondest hope, I guess, for this project?
Barondess: So, what I would like to see happen is the project to continue to receive the kind of support it has from our administration and our leadership here at MDOT to continue that community discussion and dialogue so that the community can really determine priorities and what they want to see happen next on 375. And, you know, we do a lot of that work with NEPA, with the National Environmental Policy Act, but here's a great opportunity to continue that discussion through design, construction, and determining the future for the excess property here. So, I would dearly love to see all of the great work that's happened to date, and these past seven years, on this project continue on and the momentum continue on, so we can arrive at infrastructure solutions that are community friendly and do acknowledge some of the things that have happened in the past, and look for creative approaches through partnerships with the community, and other community nonprofits, and public private partnerships to implement some of the things that transportation can do to level the playing field for the community today.
Cranson: I think that's great. Thank you, Margaret. I'm sure we'll be talking more about this, and I look forward to following the progress with you. I will be back with Lieutenant Governor Garlin Gilchrist. Okay once again, we're back to talk about I-375 and MDOT's plans to restore an urban boulevard there and get rid of the freeway that is, you know, acknowledged by many as a major mistake some 60 years ago. And I’m pleased to have with me Lieutenant Governor Garlin Gilchrist, who was along for the NBC interview and story on the corridor last week with Mayor Duggan and our director, Paul Ajegba, and the governor. Thanks for taking time to do this.
Lt. Gov. Garlin Gilchrist: Jeff, thank you for having me. It was good to be here with you, and it was good to be there. You know, I grew up first half of my childhood in the Black Bottom neighborhood where 375 was built. It really bisected and destroyed, so this is really great that our state is making this statement of values that we want to invest in this community in a new way and to restore what's been lost.
Cranson: Well, that's really interesting. So, what are your earliest perceptions, I mean, given that you're, you know, much younger than the freeway, your earliest perceptions of that freeway? And when did the history of that neighborhood really get on your radar?
Lt. Gov. Gilchrist: You know, when I was a child, I mean, like, super young, I was made aware of by parents, my neighbors. They told me about, you know, what happened when 375 came there. It didn't have to go there, but that when it was placed there what it displaced 60 years ago, displacing, you know, hundreds of Black owned businesses, displacing, you know, what really was our Black Wall Street. You talk about what happened in Tulsa and Black Wall Street there. That Black Bottom was our Black Wall Street here in Detroit and here in Michigan. So, from a very, very, very young age, I’m talking four or five years old, I was aware of that history. So, now I’m very proud that as lieutenant governor of the state, as someone who is a son of that community, to be able to make this statement of values to the federal government in a way that's aligned with our President and Vice President. Joe Biden and Kamala Harris want to invest in communities and create not just equitable assets opportunity, but, frankly, to create equitable access to prosperity in a way that plays homage to the community that was lost.
Cranson: That's really interesting that you talk about as a Black Wall Street because it really was the epicenter of the Black middle class in Detroit and probably, therefore, in Michigan.
Lt. Gov. Gilchrist: I mean, I think you should go step further than that. So, you know, for a lot of Black people around the country, actually, you know, Detroit, Michigan was the place that they came, and for the first time, they saw Black folks who had wealth. So, a lot of those Black folks lived in that community, so it really represents a lot. And, you know, this is about what the Governor are trying to do across the board, create equitable access to economic opportunity to position the people of Michigan to have a chance of success, whether that is reclaiming a heritage and building a prosperous future on top of that or you're just reducing barriers for people to be their best self. That's what we're all about.
Cranson: So, Jupiter kind of aligned with Mars for us because while this has been talked about for a few years, it's been a bit stalled the funding is always a problem, you know. We're talking in the range of $300 million dollars to do this right, but having a President come along and a Secretary of Transportation, Pete Buttigieg, and say, ‘This is exactly what we're talking about when we talk about equity and we talk about connectivity.’ I mean, it just really couldn't have come at a better time.
Lt. Gov. Gilchrist: Well, that's what I mean when I say an alignment of values with vice president—I mean, excuse me, President Biden, Vice President Harris, Secretary Buttigieg. They've made clear that the way that we should be directing federal resources is to create, you know, sort of catalytic opportunities to create equity in our communities, and that's exactly what 375 represents. And us applying for this USDOT RAISE grant, you know, we don't get a chance to make many of these kinds of applications. We only get to apply for, like, three every year, and our administration, the Whitmer, Gilchrist administration, is choosing to ask the federal government to partner with us on this project because it's the right thing to do, and because we believe in the economic potential and vitality of this community. And we want to build it back better.
Cranson: So, definitely our hope in pursuing this RAISE grant is that we can get some money for the planning, but it's going to signal viability to the federal government. They're going to say, ‘Okay, this is something we've already invested in, so let's invest more and really make this happen and expedite it and get it over the finish line.’ Many people can't get past lamenting the troubling history, which is understandable. But at the same time, you know, nothing the city or state could do would undo those past mistakes. So, you and the Governor and the department are acknowledging that past and doing what you can, I guess, to explore the ways to restore the opportunity and vibrancy there. But what do you think when you hear people say, ‘Well, nothing's going to bring it back?’ I mean, that's true, right? Nothing is going to bring it back the way it was, but it doesn't mean we shouldn't do something.
Lt. Gov. Gilchrist: The intention is not resurrection. The intention is respect and then reimagination. So, the idea of we can we invest in the potential of the people of this community so that it doesn't need to be exactly what it was—that was 60 years ago—but what is the version of that vibrant community today? I’m not just here to mark something historically. We're here to build something for the future that's inclusive and that is representative of that heritage, and that's what we can do. That's what, you know, this kind of grant, as you said, demonstrate the viability of this project. And we will have a very, I know, vibrant and enthusiastic set of community conversations about what this can look like and what this community can be, and that's what's exciting to me.
Cranson: Well said, and the federal government, Federal Highway Administration, signals some flexibility and cooperation in terms of doing a memorial there, some kind of museum, something to honor the past. I know that's really important to people, and that's unusual for, you know, a DOT to be able to do something like that. So, I think this could be a real model for the rest of the country.
Lt. Gov. Gilchrist: Well, I mean, again, that would be nice, and I think they have said there's some interest in that and that should happen. That just can't be the extent of it. So, I think what our residents will be looking for is how we leverage this opportunity. This is going to be a generational investment in this community, and it's how we can make sure that we are enabling all the people with ideas who live in the community, all those with heritage here, to be able to see themselves in the future of this community, not just to relish the past.
Cranson: Do you have any specific thoughts on what you might want to see there?
Lt. Gov. Gilchrist: You know, I think that it's really up for the people who are there now to decide. So, you know, I just want to make sure that the process that we go through is one that, like, lands in a place where we get something that is truly enabling, like, whether that's enabling—again, we have so many people who are so entrepreneurial. Again, Black Bottom was a business haven. How can we have another, you know, district of Black entrepreneurs and diverse entrepreneurs who are putting their ideas to the world in that part of Detroit. That would be really exciting and really inspiring. And I know that coupling and reconnecting that neighborhood with downtown Detroit, there's some really exciting opportunities that can come from that when that boulevard is done right. So, I’m just eager to see what the people come up with.
Cranson: So, you think that sounds different, not contradictory necessarily, but different from Rebuilding Michigan and the aggressive bonding plan to rebuild the freeways and bridges that are falling apart to take a freeway out and restore it as an urban boulevard, but, actually, that's also fixing something. It's fixing another problem, right?
Lt. Gov. Gilchrist: Well, the way that I see it it's all connected because what Rebuilding Michigan represents is how do we make sure this infrastructure is enabling for people to be able to do what they need to do from a commerce perspective, from a connection and relationship perspective. So, that all is under the same category here, so whether it is filling in the freeway or fixing a bridge, all of it is about preparing Michigan’s infrastructure to go into the future in a better way.
Cranson: Well, thank you, Lieutenant Governor. I appreciate it, and I think we'll have more opportunities to talk about this as time goes on. So, thank you for taking the time.
Lt. Gov. Gilchrist: Thanks, Jeff, and thank you to all the entire MDOT team, our MDOT employees that I see every day are courageous, are intelligent, are productive, and I’m proud to work alongside them.
Cranson: Thank you again for listening to this week's edition of the Talking Michigan Transportation podcast. I would like to thank Randy Debler and Corey Petee for engineering this week's podcast. To subscribe to show notes and more, go to Apple podcasts and search for Talking Michigan Transportation.