The Kidmin Huddle

Worship for Kids with Guest Dave Ray

• Amber Pike • Season 2 • Episode 144

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Joined by guest Dave Ray from Doorpost Kids Worship, this episode dives into the heart behind teaching kids worship. What should worship look like for kids in the church and in the home?

Grab great worship resources at https://doorpostsongs.com/.

Make sure to order your copy of Dave's book, Kids Worship: Awakening the Church of Today. It's a must-read resource for every kidmin leader and parent!

SPEAKER_00:

Welcome to the Kidman Huddle of Amber Pike, where children as many traditions get equipped, encourage, and empower to disciple with intentionality. Growing God's kingdom one child at a time.

SPEAKER_02:

Welcome back to the Kidman Huddle. Today we have a super special, fantabulous, yes, that's going to be a real word guest, my friend Dave Ray. Welcome.

SPEAKER_01:

It's good to be here, Amber.

SPEAKER_02:

So if you guys have been in the Kidman world, hopefully you are familiar with doorpost songs, doorpost kids. I don't remember which we're going to be.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, where we're transitioning. That's why you're having a hard time. But yeah, we were for a long time. We were doorpost songs because we were doing songs that came right out of scripture. And so we were referencing Deuteronomy 6, you know, that we would have scripture written on our doorposts. And then as we kind of begin to broaden our vision of what we do to just really be all about kids' worship, we finally have said, you know what, we got to change the name so people know what's going on here. So doorpost kids worship is the new name. And but a lot of people know us as doorpost songs.

SPEAKER_02:

Well, that's who they are. They're fabulous. If you don't know them, pause this podcast, go look them up. Um I think you are super, super talented, but I think your wife has one of the most amazing singing voices I've ever heard.

SPEAKER_01:

It's true. It's true. You're not the only one.

unknown:

Right.

SPEAKER_02:

When I when I read your book, I learned a fun fact that you were like a Christian music early 90s superstar. So we're gonna start the conversation there. I'll tell you guys about the book in a minute, but okay, tell me. Um, because I could not, you your your band was not on YouTube, so tell me.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, yeah. Well, okay, so superstar is a real generous word for what we were. But um, and we weren't quite uh, you know, we I we went I went to college in 2001, and so that was where we got our start. And um we had a little run where we signed a record deal and we moved down to Nashville and we released a record and we did all of that stuff to do some really cool things and make some really cool memories and tour the country in a 31-foot RV, um, you know, doing crazy things like switching drivers on the highway while still driving, you know, and then it's like, how did we survive that time period of our lives? Um, but uh, you know, of course, and then so many wonderful stories uh, you know, come out of that and memories and relationships, and yeah, that that time period of our lives was really special. But yeah, if you uh if you can find better days ahead, um, you can maybe find a couple YouTube videos, but uh it's it's hard to I couldn't find it.

SPEAKER_02:

I was like I stopped reading your book to go and look you up on YouTube and see if but I couldn't find it. There was one on on your YouTube page, there was one like Christian music TV video, and I watched part of it.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So anyway, that yeah, that was feels like a lifetime ago.

SPEAKER_02:

So fun. So I have always loved doorpost music. I think you all make just wonderful scripture-based music for kids. I've bought stuff to resource families with. Um, you obviously love worship. So you decided in all of your spare time as a dad of three, working at a church, um, running a ministry, making you know, resources for kids and families. You're like, you know, it'll be fun. I'll make a book. Kids Worship, Awakening the Church of Today, newly released, like first month in the world.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, that's right. That's right. It's exciting.

SPEAKER_02:

So exciting. So, why is teaching kids worship so important? Obviously, everybody need to go read the book, but this is a little like teaser conversation for you all. Why is teaching kids to worship so important?

SPEAKER_01:

Well, I think uh there are so many reasons. Um, and I could we could just talk for hours, but um, you know, I really view worship as central to discipleship because worship is what captures our hearts. And um, and we know that discipleship is not about doing the right things or saying the right things, it's about our hearts being with God. And we see that when Jesus interacts with the Pharisees. He says, These people, their hearts are far from me. And then he says, They worship me in vain. Their teachers are just our teachings are just human rules. And he's quoting the prophet Isaiah when he says that. And um, that's what it looks like when we lose the heart of discipleship, because the Pharisees were real good at acting righteous, but their hearts were far from God. So, what keeps our hearts tethered to Christ? It's worship. It's in worship that God captures our hearts. And it's specifically important for kids because we also are increasingly seeing the importance of childhood when it comes to our faith development, our worldview development. Um, there's this really startling phrase that Barna uses in some research about this, talking about how our um our worldview, our perspective, our moral perspective on the world is formed by about the time we're age 13. Um, and and the the quote is we believe at age 13 is what we will die believing. And of course, that doesn't mean that God can't change hearts, you know, he God does that all the time. Um, but it is a stark reality that should just awake us to the urgency of childhood when it comes to faith development and worship has got to be at the center of that.

SPEAKER_02:

I love it. And and I love this is, but it's not just a step one, do this. Step two, I love that you start your book out, making sure that the the leader reading it understands what worship is. Because if we don't understand what worship is, how can we teach our kids how to worship and what? So I love, I love, there's so many great things. I'm a I'm a book writer inner. Um I don't do you write in your books?

SPEAKER_01:

Uh yes, I do. And underline, write, and sometimes proofread.

SPEAKER_02:

I do that too. So some some people, you know, writing in a book is a no-no, but I do. I write in books um and I underlined a lot and made notes. There are no bad notes though, because I will. Fun story. Um, if a book is bad and theologically unsound, I assume when I die and someone goes through my stuff, they're going to be checking to make sure all of my resources are okay. So I will write, like, do not endorse, no, this is horrible. Theological and so I will write like in Sharpie on the cover because I'm like, when I die, I don't want them to think I'm okay with this. That's not on here.

SPEAKER_01:

That's good. I feel so I feel so good about that. Thank you.

SPEAKER_02:

But so, so many, so many good things in here. Um, and like I said, kind of starting, hey leader, do you understand what worship is and why? And then how we how we do it. And we know you've been in the kidman sphere for a long time, um, you've been making the music for them. So you hear a lot of the same uh complaints or struggles that kidmen leaders are feeling, like how do we get our kids to worship and all this? So, what would you say, other than go read the book? What would be your like one piece of starting advice for a kidman leader who just might be struggling with getting worship time happening for kids?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, well, oh man, uh just one. Um, but I you know, there the first thing I would say um is that this book, I mean, I I hope it's for everybody, you know, worship leaders, kidmen leaders, parents, but really it was written with a children's ministry leader in mind, and specifically that leader that has been given this responsibility to lead kids in worship and is like, wait a second, I'm not a musician, or I wasn't trained for this, or I don't have the sources for this, or I don't know how to do this. You know, that's who this book is. That's like the bullseye for this book. So if that's you, um, this book is really written for you. Um, so here's what I think one of the things that really helps figuring out what worship is, is understanding that worship is not a presentation, it's a conversation. And when we start understanding worship as a conversation, that God has spoken, he's revealed himself, and then we respond in worship. And it's not just one-sided, God is alive, he's still speaking, he's still reaching out to us, his spirit is still moving, and so he then responds to us, and there's this beautiful back and forth in worship of um of revelation, God's revelation, and our response. When we start grasping that, then it helps us, it helps worship come alive, it helps worship come alive for us personally, like that it this is not just okay, well, let me go on YouTube and just see which three songs uh we're gonna do today. But maybe instead it's going, okay, God, what do you want to say today? And it's not thinking, man, I've got to plan the best program or the best presentation. Instead, it's I've got to bring my kids into an encounter with God. And we're he's the one, his presence is the one that's gonna make the difference. And so um, I think that's one of the biggest things is just shifting our viewpoint from presentation to conversation.

SPEAKER_02:

That's good. I liked in here that you addressed that worship isn't just necessarily singing, is a big part of it. But I love that you spent a lot of time on prayer and scripture and just kind of ushering us into um, like honestly, some things that even though I've done children's ministry for 20 something years, that I'm like, oh, I've not thought about doing it with that. Um, so loved it, loved it. And what you said that it like it could be for worship leaders or kidmen leaders' parents, totally got that impression when I was reading it. It's not just kidmen leaders, but absolutely applicable. Um, there's a whole section I'm gonna talk about in a minute about at home, but yes, so good for anyone who needs to know what worship is. Um okay. So, my context, I am old school Baptist, totally got all the Baptist stuff you're talking about in there. Um we're we're very formulaic, formulatic. I don't know. We can be.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, we sure can be.

SPEAKER_02:

We and and unfortunately at my church, we sing every verse. We don't shorten, it is always every verse. Oh man.

SPEAKER_01:

You got to oh four thousand tongues to sing and you sang all like ten of them.

SPEAKER_02:

We're old school hymns, like four verses and the tempo slope. Um, but uh so I don't do worship with my kids because we are worshiping, um, we uh we're with the church family, adults, we're corporate worship, and then we go to children's church for the rest of our class. But I would love to hear at your church what does worship with kids look like?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, so we our our church is a pretty big church. Um, and so um, you know, we generally our our church, our venues are uh kind of organized by age. So we've got our adult venues, but then there are large group venues for our preschoolers, for early elementary, for later elementary, for junior high, and for, or I guess for uh fifth and sixth grade, and then for junior high and senior high. So you there are different venues for all of those. Um, and you know, that's that's a a challenge in and of itself. Um, and what I uh, you know, there are there are advantages and disadvantages to any model that you're gonna choose. Um, there's not a model that's wrong, that you just have to be aware of what the challenges are gonna be. But one of the things that I am so grateful for, and it's not something that I implemented, it was here in place um before I got here, is that in every one of those venues there's a live worship leadership, there's a person leading worship. And many of our kids get involved in leading kids that are younger than them in worship all the way up through those venues. Um, and I think that's one of the things that is so crucial, um, you know, because for many kids now, um a worship experience is turning into, well, we're just gonna put a video on the screen. And um, videos are great support for worship, but they're terrible worship leaders, and we need people to lead and model worship. And so, yeah, I'm I'm really grateful for um you know the investment that's been made uh long before I got here in the worship culture of our church.

SPEAKER_02:

Okay, so let's say hypothetically, we're a small church uh with an organ, and we don't have uh we don't have any skills or manpower to do live instruments. So what would be here's how you can do live worship with someone up there not pushing play when you don't have anyone to play an instrument? What would you say?

SPEAKER_01:

Well, I I would say um, you know, the the easiest thing is to just start with uh to start with singers. Um and so there are definitely resources out there and uh you know whether whether it's uh using a video or whether it's using a an instrumental track, um, you know, there's all kinds of resources out there that can help with you. Um if you don't have those instrumentalists, um the thing I would be pushing for is singers, or even you know, getting at the very least, um getting people up that are live worship leaders, even if they're not singers, like they're on stage, they are leading the worship, and but you know, God hasn't gifted them vocally, and so they're just gonna be off mic. But I think pushing toward people, and and the place to start is certainly with uh with sing or or even non-singing worship leaders, um, in the kids' context, that could certainly include hand motion leaders. Um, and then from there we kind of we kind of build out. I would say most of the venues in our most of the the kids' venues in our uh worship context don't have instrumentalists, but they all have singers and hand motion leaders where applicable.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. So what is your thought on motions? Because I am dance challenged uh and every year at VBS. So I'm at a newer church, my old church, I had this group of teens, and I just got to go in the back and take pictures. It was lovely, and the teens were on stage and they would lead all the BBS songs, and I don't have that now, and I have to do the dances and I struggle. Are you pro are you pro motions with lots of dance movements?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, okay, so uh, well, that yeah, that can be a challenge. Um, you know, I would say generally, I don't think there's anything wrong with doing hand motions. We do them when we uh, you know, whenever we lead worship for kids, there are certain songs that we and certain songs that are almost impossible to do without hand motions. Like if you can sing, I thank God, you know, and sing he picked me up, he turned me around, and not lift your hands in the air and turn around, like that's that's you know, you're a stronger man than me. But uh so some of them almost demand hand motions. So the the here's the the advantage of hand motions is an easy way for kids to engage, especially um if they don't really feel super comfortable singing. Another advantage is you know, helping, giving a place for some of those wiggles to go. Um, you know, and it's also an easy place for kids to begin leading. So you get those older elementary kids that can lead the younger kids. Um, that's an easy place for them to start serving and leading. Now there are challenges, just look with any methodology you choose, it's gonna have its advantages, and then you're gonna have to be aware of the challenges. One of the challenges is if you get those motions too complicated, the very first thing they are gonna do is to do the motions and not sing, right? And God, there is certainly scriptural um basis for dance and movement, but God tells us more than 50 times in scripture to sing. Scripture has more than 400 references to singing. Singing is the second most repeated command in the Bible after do not fear. And so um, and so we do that is something scriptural that we want to facilitate. That doesn't mean we have to be good singers, it just means we want to develop hearts that want to sing. Um, and so uh that that's one kind of danger of the emotions. And then the other thing I would just alert people to that are in this world is um, especially as you start getting in those older elementary school grades, think about your emotions and think about the boys doing your emotions because sometimes that's gonna turn those boys kind of off if they feel like it's you know, if it's missing them or if it feels too dancy or whatever, not cool enough, you know. And I'm not the person to come up with those moves, but I'm just telling I'm just telling you.

SPEAKER_02:

Well, I would like to warn, not you guys, because you all don't do it, but some people in the music producing, they have not thought of the leaders who are doing it with a bad knee. Um, there's way too much up and down.

unknown:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

When we would do camp every year, the camp theme song. You're giving me five days to learn a song and the motions and do it in like an auditorium with like this much room. I can't spin and and crouch down and jump up, like it's not happening. So, those of you making music, if you're by some chance listening to this, please think of the nearing 40-year-old children's ministry leaders who are being forced to learn this. Make the motion.

SPEAKER_01:

Oh man, yeah. Yeah, we do try to keep it simple, uh, you know, for you and for us.

SPEAKER_02:

It's hard. Okay, so singing and songs. You talked a lot in the book about songs, um, and I love this because it is important what we're singing. I love that you put such an emphasis on that it needs to be scriptural, um, which is why one of the reasons I've loved Orpost music so much is because so much of it, like almost all of it, is scripture-based, which I love. We are double dutying here because we are worshiping, but then we're also hiding God's word in our heart because music is key to memorizing. Um, so tell me, what are some of your kids' favorite songs? Or maybe you as a worship leader, um, some of your favorite songs right now.

SPEAKER_01:

Oh man. Well, um, you know, our kids love um some of the uh kind of upbeat stuff that's coming up, coming out. I mean, they love Goodbye yesterday. Uh, you know, we did a version of that one. Um, you know, uh, gosh, my son is a drummer in the student ministry. And so um, you know, there's a song called I Know That I Know That He Just Loves. And like, you know, the word, if you hear your words say, you if you hear your kids say the word banger, like that's a good thing, you know. So anytime, you know, we're discussing songs, and like, that's a banger, and we're like, Yeah, okay, got it. That's a good one. Um, but yeah, they um and you know what's also surprising is how many songs they know, and it's just crazy, like you don't even know where they picked it up from. But if you're we'll be singing songs, and sometimes we're singing songs that are like from our childhood, and I'll start singing it, and my daughter will finish it. And it's like, how where did you hear that song? You know, uh, it's just amazing how quick they are to pick that up and how long that lives in their heads.

SPEAKER_02:

Oh, which is totally like, you know, this section in your book that I have uh bookmarked right here, because I wanted to read this quote. Choosing a time of family worship centered on God's word may be the best parenting decision you'll ever make. Family worship, yes, we should be leading kids in worship at church, but absolutely yes, we should be leading our families in worship at home. So you are musical, you sing, you play guitar piano as well. Okay, your wife sings, your son drums. I'm guessing you're just an entirely musical family.

SPEAKER_01:

Um, we're, you know, we are a pretty musical family, and I know not every family is musical. Um, so I think the thing to remember first is that um, you know, the the heart of worship, um, and this is I think a really important shift, but the heart of worship is this revelation response that God's revealing, and then we're responding. And so we talked, you know, about this conversation. And so when we say it's time of family worship, what we're really saying is let's enter that conversation at home. You know, let's have that conversation at home. And so that could involve a lot of different things. It might involve music, but it doesn't have to involve music. It certainly doesn't have to look like a church service, but it is gonna involve in some way encountering God's revelation. And so that means that God's word is gonna be at the center of whatever you do at home. And so when we open God's word and receive from him, let him speak to us, and then we respond, and we can respond in prayer, we can respond by singing, we can respond by creating, we can respond by serving others. But when we receive that revelation and then we respond, we're engaging in worship. And so um, you know, family worship, I feel like when people hear that phrase, um, that they may think, okay, well, I've got to construct a whole worship service at home. And really, it's much simpler than that. It's really saying our our family is gonna be built on God's word, and we're gonna have this sacred conversation of worship at home, not just at church.

SPEAKER_02:

I love it. So for me, I always have I'm I'm old school, um, even though I'm not 40 yet, but I have a CD player in my kitchen, like mounted under the cabinet, and there's always something playing in there. I'm a background noise kind of person, and kind of like you said with your daughter, one day I'd like carried it out to my front porch office and not the CD player, my office. Uh, and I had a song on, and Raleigh's like, oh, that's one of my kitchen songs. And so she's able to sing along just because it's the worship music is on in the background. Um, and it's just it's so important that we are teaching our kids this at home. So let's say I'm the kidman leader who all this is kind of new information to me. And okay, now I'm hearing I need to teach kids how to worship. I need to give them um the opportunity to worship at church, but then I need to equip mom and dad how to enter into a time of worship at home. What suggestions would you give to a kidman leader who this is kind of new to them? So, how how can they start helping parents worship at home? Maybe resources, maybe I don't know, by doorpost or anything like that, but it's not home.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay, so well, here's the deal. Um, the first thing I would say is that um it's really easy, you know, and I've I've been in ministry now for you know 20 years vocationally and longer than that, unpaid. And um six.

SPEAKER_02:

I re I read the book. You were six.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, yeah, that was the first time I sang in church when I was six. I appreciate that recall, appreciate that callback. Um uh and it's really easy. We get passionate about something, we get a burst of energy, we power up, and then we try it once. It doesn't really work the way we thought it was gonna work, and we give up. And that is a really defeating way to do ministry, but it's I've certainly done it. You know, I'm guessing that you've done it as well. I think a lot of people experience that. Um, and so one of the things that I really preach, I preach it to my own team, um, and certainly to other kidmen leaders when we get to talk, is that we want to find that thing, we want to find slow, sustainable change, and we want to lean into persistence, that the most important thing we're gonna do is we're gonna persist in carrying a message that over and over and over and over, and we're just not going to give up. And so if you're hearing all this and you're like, okay, man, I want to do all these things, or maybe I see all of these shortcomings, or all of these ways in which I feel like I'm I'm not doing what I should be doing. The very first thing I would tell you to do is um, you know, alter your course and then just start walking and don't give up. If you start sprinting, you know, you may find yourself running out of steam. Or maybe you maybe you put on a big event for parents to learn how to teach their kids to worship, and not enough people come. And you're like, oh, well, that didn't work. I guess I'll go do something else. Um, so I really encourage people toward persistence, and that culture is built by the slow drip of a consistent message. So, in terms of you know, resourcing families, I I honestly don't think families need any resources other than a Bible and a willing heart. There are resources out there. We've created and we have on our website some digital family worship guides. Our friends over at Seeds have done some stuff like this. You can find devotionals, our friends at Iwana have done some things with their talk about resource. Um, you can find plenty of resources there, but really if you if you just give a resource, you haven't fixed the problem because the problem was not the resource. Every parent in your church has a Bible, and that's all they need. The problem was the heart. And so if we can focus our attention toward the heart, what does the heart need? The heart is gonna need a partner, the heart's gonna need encouragement, the heart's gonna need equipping, and those things are gonna have to happen regularly and over time. That's where we're gonna see it make a difference. And it's not gonna be snap your fingers and everyone in your church becomes this, you know, um uh worshiping at home godly parent. It's gonna be slowly over time.

SPEAKER_02:

I love that. And hey, it's like one of those analogies you put in the book about a parking, going to the gym. Like, wow, that's dedication. Um but no, it's true because we do. We we get discouraged if we don't see the results. And like, let's be honest, if you have a culture in your church that's more production than it is genuine worship, that's not gonna change in one week. It's going to take a while for that to change, and you just gotta you gotta keep at it. Um, so yes, yes, I love, I love again that you start with the heart. Um, so kidman leaders, if you are unsure of this one, um, go get this book uh and then like get your notebook and start looking up all the scripture about worship and how we're supposed to worship. Lots of that is he he did the hard work for you, but you still need to do it yourself. Um, figure out what it is and then what does that look like in your context? At my little tiny country church, it will never ever see drums, not happening. So I know getting a live drum worship, it's not happening there, but worship can still happen in my context. So, how am I doing that? How am I how am I reminding the parents of what it should look like? So for us practically, um I love seeds family worship. We uh do answers in Genesis VBS, so it has their so one of my resources recently was a seeds album, which I then use in class some of the songs, and then I'm hey mom and dad, here's a song that we are doing, that familiarity, but we're reminding them um that you can't just send something home and be like awesome, did it. They're all doing it because they're not all doing it. Um, I have sent things home that I have not used as a kid in theater, and I thought you have too. So you need to remind them to use it, and here's why we're using it. Um, you know, maybe it's social media posts, engaging them with it with a question. Hey, at family devotion time, ask this question. Hey, here's your challenge this week. Praise God for something you saw, you know, whatever. But be intentional with it and just keep going. I love that. I love that. Okay. Dave, where do we find out about you? Because there's sadly, there might be people listening who have missed out on years of knowing you and your ministry, and that's very sad. So, how do they rectify that?

SPEAKER_01:

Well, uh, and as quickly as possible. Um Right?

SPEAKER_02:

Go now.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. Well, so a couple things. Uh, one is that our website is doorpostkidsworship.com, and you can find all of our resources for kids worship. You know, we we know what you need in your church context to um to use these songs and to make it happen. And everything that is on our website, we have used in worship services with kids. And so, um, and so doorpost kids worship is a place to start for videos and for charts and for tracks and things like that. Um, if you want to just listen to our music, if you you can find doorpost songs, we haven't gotten the name changed yet on our on our Spotify and everything, but Spotify, uh, you know, YouTube, uh, Apple Music, all of those places, you can find doorpost songs. And then the book is available on our site, it's available on Amazon. And then the last thing I think I would point you to is that we also created a masterclass that goes with the book. It's uh called the Leading Kids in Worship masterclass. There's eight video sessions, there's handouts and discussions, and that comes out like in the next couple. Well, actually, by the time this airs, maybe it's already out. Uh it comes out in November.

SPEAKER_02:

And so Okay, so give us some more details on the masterclass. Like, do you is there a certain time we have to sign up by? Is it a take on their own? Do they get to hang out with you on a video? What does it look like?

SPEAKER_01:

It's it's it's a downloadable video session. So you download it and you use it with your team, and there's handouts and discussion questions you can use with your team as well. Um, it it pairs well with the book, it's kind of a version of the book. Um, and so it's just a great place for you to start either personally, if you've you're like, man, I could really use some training in this kind of stuff. That's a great place to start. Or maybe you've got a group of teenagers or adult volunteers, and you're like, okay, I really want to give us some vision for what we're doing. The masterclass is a great place to start.

SPEAKER_02:

So that's a great idea. I've seen a lot of questions online lately about like training your junior volunteers or junior leaders, whatever you want to call them. So this could be a great place to give a little extra training because I'm gonna assume, just knowing you, there's gonna be a lot of Jesus and scripture references in there. So it's not just step one, hold the mic this far from your voice. It's going to be about the heart of why they do it, which I think would be an amazing training to provide to young leaders who could grow up to be kidmen leaders or worship leaders or just members of the worship team, you know, whatever. Well, Dave, thank you so much just for what you have done in the kingdom. I have been a big fan for years. I have several of your albums that I've sent home with kids and devotion book and used your songs, read the book, all of that. And one of my favorite things about you and the stuff that you guys produce is it's Jesus centered. It's scriptural, sounds great too. But I just, your your heart shows through. So my kidmen friends, um if you're listening to this and you're not a kidman friend, you still need to read this. Go and get kids worship, awakening the church of today, because our kids are capable of a lot more than we often give them credit for. We are not just filling an hour. We are not just watching the kids so that the the real worship can happen. We should be doing this with all ages of our kids. We should be leading them in worship. We should be discipling them in this book is whether you think you're rocking worship time or you're ready to cry every week this book is going to kind of help real you know there are those people. I kind of feel that way about BBS songs. It's too hard for me to dance. I hate dancing. I'm no good at it in in high school I was a did all the plays and whenever we'd have too many people on stage I was the first one to volunteer to sit out a song so I wouldn't have to dance. It's bad so the struggle's real um but in all seriousness go grab this book friends um go follow Dave on social media go buy all the things from their store you won't regret it. Thank you so much for being here for writing this book for your heart for worship and just training training the leaders who are training this generation of disciples. So thank you thanks Anthony great to be here all right kidmen friends go buy the book get the songs start worshiping and remember what you do matters