Doubles Only Tennis Podcast

Harri Heliovaara Interview: Winning Wimbledon, Handling Pressure, 2nd Serve Psychology, Tour Doubles Changes, & More

• Will Boucek • Episode 210

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Harri Heliovaara is the 2024 Wimbledon gentlemen's doubles champion and the 2023 US Open mixed doubles champion. He's currently ranked #16 on the ATP doubles tour. Heliovaara is also one of my favorite players to watch because of his entertaining celebrations and on-court demeanor.

This interview with Harri covers his Wimbledon run, doubles changes, his story, and more.

  • Why he quit professional tennis in 2013 before returning in 2017.
  • How he mentally overcame being down multiple match points in the Wimbledon final.
  • Serve struggles and how he's improved his 2nd serve, including specific drills.
  • His experience being mic'd up in DC (video below), and what other changes he'd like to see to help make doubles more popular.
  • Offseason training.
  • The process of changing partners and new teams for 2025.


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Harry Heliovarra

Speaker 1

You're about to hear my conversation with Harry Heliovarra. Harry won Wimbledon in 2024 alongside his doubles partner, henry Patton. He also won the 2023 mixed doubles title at the US Open with Anna Danilina. He has a career-high doubles ranking of number seven in the world and recently made the semifinals at the ATP finals as well. Harry is one of the most entertaining players to watch on the men's doubles tour for sure. He has very positive energy. He has really emotional celebrations. He's really a joy to watch, so I highly recommend watching him in 2025.

Speaker 1

But in this conversation, you're really going to get to know him. You're going to get a feel for his personality. He shares his story. He talks to us about how he is able to have such positive energy on the tennis court and where that comes from. We talk about winning Wimbledon, where they lost the majority of the points in the match. They won 6-7, 7-6, 7-6. They were down several match points and we talk about how he handled the nerves during that match. We also discuss serve struggles. So in a different podcast with Dan Kiernan, who was on with me recently, harry talked with Dan about how he had serve struggles throughout his career and Harry dives a bit deeper in this episode about how he's dealt with that and how he's improved his second serve, including how he practices it, which he shares some specific tips that you can take away and implement into your own game.

Speaker 1

We also talk about mixed doubles, how the strategy is different. He has a very specific strategy that he shares with us. And then we talk about being mic'd up on the court. He was mic'd up in DC earlier this year. The ATP put together a little one to two minute clip of that which I'm going to link to in the show notes for you. It's really entertaining and you learn a lot from it, and I'm hoping that they do more of this next year. But I asked Harry about that experience and then about some specific things that he said while he was mic'd up during some of those matches. We also talk about the offseason, his time on the ATP Players Council, what changes he would like to see for doubles in terms of scoring, changes in terms of free fan movement a lot of different things like that, and then I also get to some of your questions from Twitter as well.

Speaker 1

So this is a pretty long, wide-ranging conversation. You're going to get to know Harry. Like I said, he's a very entertaining player, but he was also a great podcast guest. He's super thoughtful and insightful and I think you're going to really enjoy this. So, without further delay, enjoy my conversation with Harry Heliovarra. Hey everyone, welcome to the show. Today we have Wimbledon champion Harry Heliovarra on. Harry, welcome, thank you very much. Thanks for coming on and I'm excited to dive into this with you. You're one of the most, I feel like, thoughtful and energetic, and you've been on the ATP Players Council before, so these are all of the topics that I love to discuss and that people love to hear about, but I wanted to start with a very simple question for you when do you get your positive energy?

Speaker 2

That's a tough one. I don't know, I don't consider myself a very super energetic person outside the tennis court, but once I step on a court, see a tennis ball, it all changes and and I just I just want to win a lot. I think that's that's one reason. And then, yeah, once I appreciate winning and doing, doing the best I can, then it's a positive energy, positive emotions. They just come from from inside, from the heart, and I'm really proud of that, somehow also.

Speaker 1

Yeah, I mean. It's certainly very fun to watch and I feel like not only the crowd feeds off of it but I'd imagine it helps your partner as well.

Speaker 2

Yeah, yeah, definitely that's my role on the court to keep my partner up as well in terms of energy.

Speaker 1

So I want to go back to Wimbledon. Earlier this year, you and your partner, henry Patton win what is one of the most epic finals in probably Wimbledon doubles history 6-7, 7-6, 7-6. It was a super obviously tight match. I think every tiebreaker was like 10-8 or 11-9 or 8-6, something like that. But I wanted to ask when you're in a big match like that, a final, you're down several match points throughout the match. How do you handle nerves and is there anything you try to do differently, going into, say, a tiebreaker in a very big match like that?

Speaker 2

That Wimbledon final. That was a strange match, I have to say. For the whole match it felt like we're not going to win it, until our own match point, which came almost three hours into the match. But it felt like the opponents were better throughout the match. They won all the stats of the match. They won more points. They played much better than us, I felt like. But maybe one thing that we succeeded was that we accepted we would have accepted to lose the match as much as we would have wanted to win the match. I would say so. We we weren't like forcing it. We we didn't just want to win too much. We were happy on the court, whatever the score would have been, and I think that helped with with the nerves as well. Obviously it was the first big, big match for both of First Grand Slam final and playing on the center court in Wimbledon. It's quite a special occasion, but we were so happy to be there it didn't matter how the match ended up.

Speaker 1

So you think like being willing to accept a loss helped you kind of release any nervous energy and not worry about the outcome as much, I guess.

Speaker 2

Yeah, that's exactly what I'm saying. Somehow it felt like, yeah, even we were down in the second set tiebreak. We were down in the third set tiebreak. We were still proud of what we were doing on the court. It didn't matter what the score was, we were just doing our best. I have watched the replay, obviously, a few times afterwards, but I was smiling at the end of the third set. I don't know where that came from, but it just showed how comfortable I was on the court. Our coach, calvin Betten he said actually that I looked like a psychopath smiling there when he said it all in the Wimbledon final third set tiebreak. But I think it was a very good side and I hope I can do that in the Wimbledon final third set tiebreak. But I think it was a very good side and I hope I can do that in the future too.

Speaker 1

Maybe that's the secret. Look like a psychopath on the court and you play a little bit better yes save those psychopaths.

Speaker 2

Moments for the finals.

Speaker 1

So let's step back even further, share your story with us. How did you get started in tennis, all the way to kind of where you are now and maybe two or three minutes but they took me to the tennis court and my yeah, the whole junior career.

Speaker 2

I played a lot of tennis, traveling the world, playing junior tournaments, and finished high school in Finland and then went pro for a couple of years. I think that was the simplest choice for me. I never thought about going to a US college maybe I should have now in hindsight but felt like the right decision to go pro immediately. I played all right. I played mostly singles. Back then I reached top 200 in singles and I was very proud of that. But then I had some big back problems, financial issues, some burnout issues and I stopped playing for almost five years, actually Went back to school, graduated as a master of science and did even some work at McKinsey company in a private equity firm in Finland for a little while before I realized that. Wait a minute, maybe there's something in tennis and especially doubles. I always liked doubles but I never really put a lot of effort in it.

Overcoming Struggles in Tennis

Speaker 2

Back then, I think seven years ago, when I made the comeback to the tennis, we had Henrik Kontinen who was the number one in the world in doubles back then, another Finnish player. I thought he would need a partner for an Olympic Games one day. That was one of the big goals for me to play Olympics with him. It has not happened, but I'm not very disappointed that I made it back to the Tour. Obviously, with the doubles focus from early on, it wasn't as easy as I was hoping. I thought I could maybe reach the top 100 a little bit quicker, but I learned a lot in the last six years or so and where I'm now at. I also didn't think that I would be in the top 10 or win Grand Slams. I was hoping maybe I can get to top 50, top 30 if I'm lucky. So there you go. It's a very long journey, very different journey, I would say, because I also stopped for a long time, but maybe that's one of the reasons I enjoy playing so much nowadays.

Speaker 2

I play only for myself, show anyone and I play pressure-free. I know what life can be outside a tennis court, but I also know that tennis is what I want to do right now why do you think?

Speaker 1

uh, you mentioned, maybe you should have gone to college. Uh, why did you say that? Why do you feel like maybe you should have?

Speaker 2

I think now it's. It's such a good opportunity to, especially after high school, when you're young. I was 18 and started to go pro. Maybe you're too young, you don't have any experience traveling the world. It's also very expensive to go pro immediately and I felt like I would have needed maybe a couple more years of good practice, a lot of matches, that international exposure which I would have gotten in a couple more years of good practice, a lot of matches, that international exposure which I would have gotten in the US college and just feels like that would have developed me as a better player, maybe quicker, maybe I would have learned something more. But who knows, I'm also very happy where I'm at now, having not been to college yeah.

Speaker 1

So I want to ask about that time off between 2013 and 2017 so you you worked at McKinsey and company. How often are you playing tennis during these three to four years? Are you still like getting out on the court several days a week, or did you have like months and months where you wouldn't even pick up a racket? How were you able to, I guess, come back in 2017 and then three, four years later reach that top 100, top 50 and so on?

Speaker 2

I think the first year or two after I stopped my first career, as I call it, I didn't play much at all very little, maybe, gained a little weight. I didn't enjoy playing much. At times there were some juniors that asked me oh, if you want to come and hit a little bit, okay, I could do that, but there were definitely months that I didn't touch a racket even. I think yeah, towards 2016-17, they asked me to play Davis Cup for Finland because I didn't touch a racket even, I think yeah, towards 2016-17. They. They asked me to play Davis Cup for Finland because we didn't have any player for the Davis Cup and back then it was best of five sets.

Speaker 2

So it was very physically demanding and because I wanted to play one certain Davis Cup tie, I had to really work hard physically and that and I did like a seven to eight week block with my fitness trainer the same fitness trainer that I worked with in the past and that that was like the really good period for period for me, because I worked super hard with my fitness, maybe harder than in the past, and just had to be in shape for a for best of five match in eight weeks, and after that it was easy to continue practicing that did that time with the fitness trainer kind of spark a little bit of, I guess, joy or desire to to come back is that when you kind of made that decision yeah, definitely, definitely.

Speaker 2

when I started to yeah, I started to exercise more, play tennis and I felt like I was enjoying it again. Also, I didn't have any pain like I had in the past. We found new medicine for my back problems, new ways to cope with that, which also helped a lot. It's much easier to enjoy something when you're pain-free enjoy something when you're pain-free.

Elevating Tennis Serve Performance

Speaker 1

So I was listening earlier to your recent podcast with Dan Kiernan on Control the Controllables. You and Henry were on there I think it was like a month ago or so and you talked about, or he asked you, what one of your biggest struggles was throughout your career and you mentioned your serve and you also mentioned that you do some like breathing tips from your psychologist or something. Talk a little bit about that and how you handle maybe, if anybody's listening to the show and the serve is not the biggest strength of their game, how they can go about handling that it's it's nice that you ask about it is right now, because or not?

Speaker 2

I played in turin atp finals a couple weeks ago and I was the only player in doubles who didn't lose his serve. The whole tournament, four matches, didn't lose my serve, and you can imagine how proud I am about that, because I still still would say that serve has always been the biggest struggle of my game and and I can do that on the biggest stage of tennis, in the ATP finals uh, it's. It's been, yeah, years of years of hard work and a lot of it is mental, I have to say. A lot of it happens inside the head. We have like mental anchors. We work on that with my psychologist. We work together with my tennis coach as well.

Speaker 2

How can we trust the serve? How where do you find the, especially the second serve for me? Uh, first percentage has never been my strength, but having, uh, having practiced more and more second serves lately, especially in the last 12 months or so, I've I start every, every practice with just second serve, second serves, and just believe that it doesn't matter if I miss the first serve. I have a great second serve and that has been maybe something that changed this year. And has, yeah, has yeah, developed my serve to to the next level. It also gives me like less stress for my first serve because I don't have to worry so much. Even if I miss the first serve, like I trust my second serve a lot and, uh, yeah, maybe, yeah, I would say the second serve has improved and that that has been the biggest thing. It also also I have also started to serve more spots with the second serve. In the past I was hitting a lot of body second serves and nowadays I find myself like wanting to hit spots, but I wanted to be more aggressive. But I'm not missing, for example, on the ad side, the t serve.

Speaker 2

On second serves. I was avoiding that for many years. I felt like it was too risky. But after a lot of practice, a lot of mental, you know, trusting myself, building the right routines before the serve and how I can, I know that I, I, I think in my head, I think in swedish actually, which is not my native language, because there's such a good saying, but you can translate it to basically like I want to do it, I know I can do it and I will do it. And that's like three quick thoughts I go through before a big serve or a big moment before a serve and especially the second serve T on the ad side. I'm super proud how much that has improved and we had the just a discussion with my coaching team lately. I missed the serve three times the whole year. Second serve t the ad side, which a year ago I felt like that's way too risky to even try that's amazing progress.

Speaker 1

How do you say that phrase in swedish? Can you say it for us? Okay, I'm not gonna try it, I'll embarrass myself. Um, you mentioned mental anchors. What do you mean by that?

Speaker 2

uh, I do a lot of work even pre-match, like how I like vision myself on the court, how I'm gonna feel. Okay, it's most of the matches I'm gonna face a break point, for example in my service games. So I I decide beforehand what I'm gonna do in those break points, what kind of serve I want to hit. Of course I can change that during the match, but at least I have something that I can you know to when the breakpoint comes in the match, I don't panic. I know okay, I'm prepared for this, I know exactly what to do. I take the deep breath, I go through the three things in Swedish in my head and just execute. It takes away a lot of the insecurity, a lot of the decision-making which might create more stress, and I think that's very important for me. I follow a plan. I trust myself, I execute no unnecessary thinking.

Speaker 1

And then you also mentioned at the beginning of all of your practices you're working on second serves. A lot of people wait till the end of practice. First off, why are you doing it at the beginning of practice instead of the end? And then also, what does that practice look like? Are you hitting a certain amount to the deuce court than the add court going for your spots, or how does that look like specifically?

Speaker 2

the ad court going for your spots, or how does that look like specifically? Well, uh, second serves is it's a very good way to also start the practice because you don't well, you don't hit full power. You can do it even when your body is not fully warm. But also, a tennis match always starts with a serve, and that's something that we we often forget. And especially doubles, which is nowadays, you don't hit many ground strokes. You might not even hit many, many shots in the first two games if, if your partner is serving first, but you have to be ready to serve anytime, anywhere right now, and often in the beginning of the match. Those are the biggest games.

Speaker 2

And yeah, my second serve practice. It's for me, it's important to mix the spots a lot. I don't I don't want to hit too many second serve that looks exactly the same in a row. So I go wide t t wide body doesn't have to be like exactly as the same structure every time, but a lot of changing of the target, changing of the change of the spin as well. I want to use a lot of slide serves, but also the kick serve and faster. And yeah, increasing the speed in the last 12 months has also been a key, like I can hit it a little harder because I trust it more.

Strategies and Challenges in Doubles Tennis

Speaker 1

Yeah, that's a really important point for people listening, I think, who are trying to work on their serve. A lot of people I feel like have the misconception of like, if I want to work on that T serve in the ad court, I'm going to hit 20 straight T serves in the ad court, but I think your muscle memory and like learning a new kind of motor skill like that it's important to mix it up and go T wide body T and come back to it, rather than doing the same thing over and over again, because that doesn't actually replicate what happens in a match. Right? You're never going to hit 20 or 30 of those slice serves down the T or whatever it may be in a row, so it's important to mix it up. I think that's really, really good. You also won the US Open in mixed doubles back in 2023 with Anna Danilina. What do you do differently in mixed doubles? How does the strategy change for you?

Speaker 2

That's a good question. It is different, it is a lot different.

Speaker 2

I would say uh yeah as a yeah, honestly, as a guy, you need to cover more court than you would in a in a normal double match. I think that's just that. You have to be honest with that. Um, uh, you have to be have to be more brave as well. I think you have to read the game a little more. Try to try to be honest with that. You have to be more brave as well. I think you have to read the game a little more. Try to be more active. Trust yourself a lot.

Speaker 2

I'm going to be the player on court who makes it or breaks it.

Speaker 2

I might miss a little bit more than usual because I have to be more aggressive, but if I succeed, then we do well.

Speaker 2

I think, strategically it's been interesting to.

Speaker 2

I still haven't played a lot of mixed doubles, just the Grand Slams and just four times a year in the last two years only.

Speaker 2

But I find that, for example, after the serve, it's not worth it to play serve and volley, because with the first volley you can't be as aggressive as with the first shot from the baseline in a mixed doubles match and if I hit a first volley to the opponents, they will always hit the next shot to my partner, which might not be the ideal play for us, whereas if I stay back I can maybe hit a forehand full power to a corner or middle of the court and then they might not be able to hit the next ball to my partner as well. Small things like that that I've learned. But it's also mixed doubles super important to keep your partner happy, like in all doubles matches and, I think, even more important than mixed doubles, just the chemistry has to be good, because most of the teams in professional mixed doubles matches haven't played much together. But if you can have good energy, good relationship on court with your partner, that can really help you win some matches.

Speaker 1

Yeah, that's a good point about the half volley. I'd never thought about that before, but as you're saying that, that makes total sense to me To be able to go full power on that. It's going to be tougher for that opponent to redirect down the line than if they're hitting that same shot off of your half volley.

Speaker 1

So yeah that makes a lot of sense. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Next question so a lot of normally at the Masters 1000s, less so at the majors, but still there. Sometimes you'll have singles players who don't play a lot of doubles but they'll be on the doubles court and I imagine that's pretty tough for you as a doubles player facing somebody with a very different game style. A lot of times they have bigger serves, better ground strokes, who are maybe one to three singles players that you've faced over the last several seasons that are very good at doubles as well, or maybe that you've struggled against yeah, one of the most difficult opponents for us as doubles guys are the singles guys who want to win but don't care if they lose.

Speaker 2

That's the worst opponent that you can get and that often happens For them. It's not the end of the world if they lose, but they're still very happy to win. I would say Felix Oger Aliasim. I played him two times in the last two years. I just didn't find a hole in his game. I had no idea what to do against him. He was returning my every serve. His own serve is massive. He's maybe not the best net player, but he's still a very good tennis player. He covers a lot of court. He's a big guy. I was very impressed with his double skills best net player, but he's still a very good tennis player. He covers a lot of court. He's a big guy. I think he was. I was very impressed with his double skills. Another one I yeah, he's definitely the first one. I'm thinking I have played a lot of singles guys.

Speaker 2

Ben Shelton, his service is very good. He wants the ball in doubles, which is maybe different than some singles guys who maybe avoided a little bit at the net, but he wants the ball. I managed to beat him maybe once or twice, but he's also beaten me a few times. He's a good guy. He's always having a good time on court. The atmosphere is good. I like to play against him, but he's also very a good time on court, which also it. The atmosphere is good.

Speaker 1

I like to play against him, but he's also very tricky, especially with a serve like that uh, I think you played him in dc this year and you were mic'd up for that match um, which was my next uh topic of conversation. So I watched the highlights again of that match uh, where you're mic'd up, which was so entertaining for people listening. I'm going to link to it in the show notes and I wanted to go over some of the quotes from that match that you had. So we're going to start with an easy one. So there was a moment from the highlight where you're huddled up with Henry Patton. All you said to him was IT left, so talk about what that means. And then what else goes on in that huddle as the serve team.

Speaker 2

Yeah, that comment is before serve we keep it very simple. Especially in Washington, we were playing with a little bit less time between the points. We had to be very, very precise with our discussion. So IT right would mean I would be the formation that we're going to play. I formation the service. Service partner is going to be down in the middle of the court, t is where the service is going to go and right is where the service partner is going to move after the serve. Very simple, three things. That's all you need to know as a yeah, as a team. What formation we start with, where the service going, where the net player is moving. Keep it simple. But that's something that we go through before every serve of match when?

Speaker 1

uh so when you're calling the t serve, something that I feel like at the higher level that's really important is knowing if your partner is going to hit more of a flat T serve or a slice T serve With that play call. You didn't mention anything about the spin of the serve. Is that something that y'all have like assumed, like you're going more flat on the first serve or is it something because you didn't have enough time? You just didn't have time to communicate that information?

Speaker 2

That's a good question. I think, yeah, me and Henry, we have played enough together to kind of know what kind of a serve our partner is going to hit to every spot. I think the only exception is the wide serve. To add, especially for me, where I can, I can go flat wide or I can go heavy kick wide. I think that's the only serve that we would call. I would. I would tell him, if it's a kick serve, if I don't say anything, it's going to be a flat one. If it's a first serve, yeah, you're right. If, if, if I tell him let's go I wide right kick, then he, if it's a first serve, yeah, you're right. If I tell him let's go eye wide right kick, then he knows it's going to be a kick serve. If I just say eye wide right, he's expecting a flat one.

Speaker 1

I see, okay, and then there was a lot of conversation on changeovers as well. What is kind of your, I guess, goal or philosophy as far as communication and what you're trying to get done on a changeover during a match?

Speaker 2

I think sometimes there's the problem of not saying anything. I don't think that's a good situation, but there's also no need to talk about nonsense stuff either. I think it's finding the balance between saying something, keeping close to your partner but still keeping it relative to the match. I think me and henry, we often we share a thought or two during a changeover, how we feeling, how we want to approach the next game, if there's, if there is something we want to approach the next game, if there is something we want to change. But just important to say a couple of things Stay together, we're a team there. We need to look like a team, we need to feel like we're connected to each other. Just a couple of things, that's all you need to say.

Speaker 1

One of the things that I heard you say multiple times in this highlight for DC. I guess it was in between games, but not during a changeover. You said first point here. What does that mean and why did you keep saying that?

Speaker 2

Another good question. Our coach Calvin had emphasized the importance of the first point of the game for us. In some games, some tournaments earlier this year we were a little bit I don't know what the word is, it's not lazy, maybe just a little bit off the focus. We haven't been fully focused on the first points of the game. Too often the opponents have gone 30, 30 love in their service game too easily. So our coach calvin gave us a very clear goal to be very focused for the first points, first two points of each game. I think that that was something I was just reminding him about. Okay, the first point is as important as a break point. So let's be very focused from the first point of the game. Let's not give them any easy holds. Or or let's make sure we we can get some easy holds by being very, very successful in the first points, first points of our service game okay, did, uh, did that just so it sounds like that mostly applied to return games for you.

Speaker 1

I mean, obviously the first point of every game is big, but that was something that was a focus mostly applied to return games for you. I mean, obviously the first point of every game is big, but that was something that was a focus for you on return games specifically.

Evolving Doubles Tennis for the Future

Speaker 2

Yeah, specifically return games. Yeah, just not to give any 30 laps an easy 30 laps. We don't want to miss two returns of serve. It's just a different pressure for the opponents if they always have to work a little bit harder for their service games.

Speaker 1

Yeah, pressure for the opponents if they always have to work a little bit harder for their service games. Yeah, in one of the matches you talked about how you said the ball is going to fly today and this was a quote from your warm-up, I believe it looked like it was sunny. Maybe it was a hot day. Why did you say that? And then what adjustments do you make when you feel like the ball is going to act a little bit differently?

Speaker 2

something, something that you want to discuss with your partner. The conditions might be different when you play In DC in July. It's going to be hot and humid and the ball is flying more than what we're used to. You might want to change your racket if you have another racket with a higher tension. I didn't do that, but just keep in mind that, okay, it's a note to yourself and okay, if I'm going to lob, the ball is probably going to fly a little bit more. If I'm going to hit it hard flat, maybe hit it a tiny bit softer. Just to make sure that you know what the conditions are. It never hurts to say it out loud and discuss kind of with your partner how it feels.

Speaker 1

And something else that y'all talked about on changeovers, I remember hearing, when I was watching these highlights, henry said to you a few times it's really tough to return today. How do you, as a partner, kind of lift him up in that situation when he's kind of expressing that I'm struggling with this area of my game? Is there anything specific that you try to do or say to him?

Speaker 2

um, it depends on the situation of the match. Uh, how I read how, also read how he's feeling. Uh, there are times when I just tell him trust yourself, it will come. I know he's feeling. There are times when I just tell him trust yourself, it will come. I know he's a great returner, he has the ability to hit some bombs and every now and then you just need a little bit of time to find it. But there's also there could be a time to tell him to do something differently.

Speaker 2

Maybe sometimes in the past I've told him to okay, why don't you try to take a step back, give yourself some more space, more time? Or also kind of give him okay, we're playing against a guy who doesn't often serve wide Just give him the wide, serve, just cover T and body and see what happens. Maybe that gives you some easier returns when you're not trying to cover everything at the same time. When I tell him, okay, give him the wide, he feels okay to not cover the wide and I'm not blaming him if they ace him wide, I'm totally the opposite. I'm like, yeah, that's fine, no problem, did exactly what you're supposed to do, and just kind of, yeah, I think the main thing is to you know, keep him relaxed, keep him keep him happy, as always in doubles. Keep your partner happy. It doesn't matter if you miss. I'm here to support you. I trust you, you, you're my partner and we're here together. Just keep him happy.

Speaker 1

From a player's perspective, did you like the mic'd up experience and then also from a, I guess, kind of tour and growth of doubles perspective, do you feel like it's good for doubles?

Speaker 2

I like it. I didn't mind it. I know some players felt a little bit against it. I don't know why. Maybe they were afraid of their secrets being out there in the open. But I understand, in doubles we want to be more open, we want to promote the game and I was super happy to do it. I know Henry wanted to do it as well. He just couldn't find a way to wear the mic and the little thing with it comfortable, comfortably and he said, okay, he's not gonna. You know it's not worth it if it's bothering him too much, sure, but I enjoyed it. I enjoyed playing it, but also I enjoyed watching some doubles matches.

Speaker 2

I think for me the most interesting was when cord and mickelson were playing the two american singles guys and they were having a good time on the court and and I just love to hear some comments like, okay, new balls, I'm going to nuke some returns here. Let's see Stuff like that For the spectator. It gives so much more like how the players are feeling on court, how they're going to approach the next shot. You might hear some tactical things and also the emotions, everything you. You get closer to a player when you hear them talking, even even when you're watching a stream yeah, 100 percent um, so I want to move on.

Speaker 1

I guess that's kind of related to, like, the growth of doubles, right um, you were on the players council. You're not still on the players council, correct? This was? Not anymore okay, um, what I guess when you were on the players council, what were some of the discussions around doubles? And then talk about what you expect to see over the next, say one to three, maybe five years. Um, and let's start with that. I've got a few other questions as well.

Speaker 2

It's a difficult topic. I have to say there's not been much done to doubles in the last you could say 10 years. It's been quite stagnant. On the other hand, maybe that's good for us. Okay, the price money in total has gone up and we've kept our 20% all the time. So the price money for doubles has gone up because the total price money has gone up and we've kept our 20% all the time. So the price money for doubles has gone up because the total price money has gone up. But still it feels like doubles is there because it has always been there. It's not there for a purpose, it's just there. I think that the main thing.

Speaker 2

I was part of the doubles review group with some players, some tournament directors, some ADP staff. It's been very interesting but eye-opening. Also because you hear from all sides of the game and but yeah, the tournaments they struggle to find the reason for doubles other than it's content for the on-site fans later during the week when they don't have many singles matches anymore, but they still want to provide something for the fans who come and watch tennis. The broadcasters are not interested in doubles at all, unfortunately. It's a difficult situation. There's not much done to promote doubles. But again, which comes first the interest of the game, or you have to promote it a lot, you have to invest a lot if you want to get something out of it, or you just forget about doubles. Even that could be an option, but luckily we were able to convince everybody the ATP and the tournaments that, yeah, doubles is going to be part of the part of the game in the future too.

Speaker 2

And yeah, this, this trial this year I was part of the group that were planning the trials. I think the execution wasn't 100 successful, but at least we tried something. We're trying to find ways to make doubles more interesting, make the make the, make the matches shorter. I think that was one of the biggest feedback from the broadcasters. They want to know how long doubles match takes. So, for example, before a singles final, they can schedule the double to start one and a half hours before the singles match and then the fans on site can watch the doubles and singles without a long gap in between, but also without the singles match being delayed because the double is taking forever. And we also, yeah, we tried the different types of draws for the masters 1000. We tried, yeah, the mics with free fan movements, something to make the game more interesting both on site and both for the fans watching the streams. But I think definitely we will have more trials next year and I think we're still a little bit trying to find the right things to do to develop doubles.

Speaker 1

I think we are not there yet what changes would you make, like if it were not a committee but it were just totally up to you? What would you like to see uh?

Speaker 2

I would make it more like a show. I don't mind fans moving us around the court, it doesn't bother me at all. I don't mind music being played next to the court that doesn't bother me at all. I don't mind music being played next to the court. I hate the let rule. After when the serve, let first serve when the ball touches the net, everything like that, everything to make the game more interesting. I'm all about that.

Speaker 2

We discussed even some bigger changes to the game. Like that, every player needs to start behind the service line when the point starts, and I would be happy to even try that. Make the points a little bit longer, just to. I'm all for more radical changes too. I think, if I'm brutally honest, the double, the actual you know game the the plays are it's it's a little boring, especially on a fast court. It's too much serving. The rallies are not long enough for doubles to be interesting. There are at times some amazing rallies on clay Also. There's some very good doubles played, but most of the doubles is a little bit boring and that's something I'm a little bit worried about.

Speaker 1

Yeah, I've heard a lot of people say and I can kind of relate to it that the women's doubles is a little bit more exciting to watch because it's a little bit longer rallies and they're a little bit weaker on the serve side, stronger on the return side, so you're seeing a little bit more action, Whereas the men's's side you can go through three or four games in a row where no rally is more than three or four balls at the most.

Speaker 1

So I guess there's a few few ways to do that. You could also slow down the balls or the court surface. That could be something that could be done.

Speaker 2

There's a lot of different approaches yeah, but also that somehow, like when the when the men's doubles is becoming more, further and further away from the doubles that the recreational player is playing. It's a different game completely. It's maybe similar to what's happening in golf the pro golfers are just bombing huge drives and it's just not the game that everybody else is playing. It's a different game and it's tougher for the fans to watch doubles when they can't relate to what's going on. When we say IT right and how we move just exactly where we're supposed to be for a club player, they just can't do it. It doesn't make any sense for them to play IT right, because then there's too much space after it because the serve is not good enough.

Promoting Doubles Tennis Stars

Speaker 1

Yeah, I do try to teach most of the listeners to use some formations, but it depends on the skill level and usually not on second serve. So definitely very different. What about, I guess, now going forward discussions when you were on the Players Council? What about social media? Where does that fit into all this? Because one thing you mentioned earlier was you know the TV broadcasters to help make doubles more popular, or does doubles need to prove itself first and get attention, and then the TV broadcasters will come in and pick it up? It's kind of like a chicken or the egg problem, and in my mind, social media is an easy way to help promote doubles more. That doesn't cost a ton of money, because you can produce this content nearly for free. The tours already have the system set up for it. But then when you go to a specific tournament's Instagram page, for example, probably 95, maybe 99 out of 100 posts are about the singles, so that seems like an easy way to approach it. Is it something you'll have talked about?

Speaker 2

seems like an easy way to approach it. Is it something y'all have talked about? Yeah, it's something that's been talked about a lot. It is unfortunate. Yeah, I've much. I've I've noticed the same thing even the atp2 finals, with there's as many singles matches as there's doubles matches, but most of the content online is about the singles. Uh, it's a difficult topic as well. Like you're not going to solve the whole problem of doubles by just doing more instagram posts. I don't think that's the answer, but it is part of the answer, definitely.

Speaker 2

I think that all the promotion that we can do on social media helps doubles players, helps the doubles uh, yeah, the whole doubles. How the game is played. At the moment, most of the interest in doubles is when the singles guys are playing, even if the actual game is not that great quality doubles. We have a labor cup doubles. That's well. As a doubles guy, you see, okay, they're not putting away any balls, it's, it's not great doubles, but because there's four very you know good tennis players, stars playing, the audience is loving it. And how can we move from being like the single stars generating the interest for doubles to the doubles guys also generating interest for doubles? I think that's through promotion.

Speaker 1

You just have to be able to relate to the top doubles guys as much as you can relate to the top singles guys yeah, and I think things like the being mic'd up and sharing clips like that on social media and then even doing podcasts like this, you know, like putting your own name out there maybe after somebody listens to this podcast interview, they become a Harry Hale-Ivara fan next year and they start watching some of your matches on TV next year. But I think the key word that you mentioned that I've talked about a lot with other players and coaches is stars. I think people aren't watching Alcaraz and Nadal play doubles because the doubles is better. It's because they are tennis stars. So the question is how do we create more tennis stars in doubles? And the Bryan brothers obviously were. They did a great job of obviously being awesome doubles players, but they also promoted themselves really well. They always did media interviews. If they had more access to social media during the majority of their career, I'm sure they would have been all over it. They are now, even though they're retired. So I think a lot of it can be the doubles players kind of promoting themselves as well. So there's a lot of different pieces to the puzzle, for sure. Selves as well. So there's a lot of different pieces to the puzzle, for sure.

Speaker 1

I want to move on to a couple other questions and then I'll let you go. What does the off season look like for you? We're having this conversation on December 9th. You've got the season starting up in less than a month now. What does the off season look like? Where do you train? How much of that time is spent training with your doubles partner, henry? Talk about that a little bit finals.

Speaker 2

Last year I even played the Davis Cup after that. This year I have one more week, but still it's less than six weeks. From the end of the last tournament to the start of the next one Start of the first one of the next season I took two weeks completely off, didn't touch a racket. I think that was important, both for my body but also for my head. I had a little time with my family. It's super, super important. We took a little trip, enjoyed the sun a little bit. Especially, living in Finland, you need to travel a little bit further away to get some warm sun. That was nice. But yeah, now I'm about 10 days into the preseason. Now Started with just fitness for about five days and then just adding tennis slowly to the mix. I think in total it's going to be three weeks of tennis practice. First week is very basic stuff, second week is more like one against two and the third week is four players on the court, pretty much following that kind of plan.

Speaker 2

Unfortunately, me and my partner Henry won't practice at all together during this preseason. He moved to USA this year and I live in Finland, so we decided we've seen each other enough this year. We both have good practice facilities close to our homes. So we just stay here at our own places and we will go early to Australia. He will fly the 22nd of December, I will fly the 25th, so we will have some time together in Australia. So instead of working hard earlier in december, we go already to australia. We we do the the work over there and find find the rhythm in the conditions that we're going to play the first tournament scene. So I think it's simple not too much, never going to be able to do too much, but just try to do a lot of fitness and then have a plan for the tennis and be ready when the new season starts for that first week where you said you're working on kind of specifics.

Speaker 1

Is that just a coach kind of feeding a lot of balls to you, working on, maybe if you want to improve your return or forehand or whatever it is? Um?

Speaker 2

yeah, what does it look like? Yeah, definitely, the return has been a big focus point during this preseason. So we do a lot of basic stuff how do I move to the return, what kind of footwork I do? But also, for me, basic stuff also means I need to feel like a tennis player. I need to hit a lot of balls. So it means more singles practice for me. I'm not afraid to do singles practice. I have. Uh well, I'm super, super happy to have a yarko nieminen, the x number 13 in singles. It lives close by it comes to practice, but he's still in such a good shape, doesn't miss a ball, so I can, I can do a couple of sessions with him and I feel so good afterwards with playing with a good, good rhythm. Very important for me that kind of practices as well.

Speaker 1

Okay, are you playing that on the singles court? Are you going like cross court shadow doubles or?

Speaker 2

no, we do proper singles, proper singles, okay, yeah cool, very cool.

Speaker 1

It's all I feel like it's good for me.

Speaker 2

I, I like it Like. Singles is my hobby, doubles is my work. That's how I see it.

Speaker 1

Yeah, I understand. Okay, a couple of questions from Twitter. I mentioned that I was having you on the show and a couple of people commented with a few different questions. So the first one is when or how do you reach the point where you know you need to change a partner?

Speaker 2

oh, that one. Luckily it hasn't happened too often. Um, I don't know. In the best case, you both know that it's it's time to change, but there's, of course, the situation where only one of you wants to do the change. I've been at the end where my partner told me okay, it's enough. I also done to my partner and said to him that okay, this is not going to work, let's do something else. I think once you go on court in a match and you feel like, okay, this again, that's a sign when you get that feeling that, oh, no, I know exactly what's going to happen and it's not good, then it's time to go.

Speaker 1

Okay, Are there any other new pairings that you can report for next season? I feel like a few have. I don't know, I haven't kept up with this a ton. I know of like three or four off the top of my head, but are there any others that you can share with us?

Speaker 2

Yeah, I think I have. I know pretty much what everybody is going to do. I think I was surprised to see Gilles and Fliegen split for next year.

Speaker 1

That's very interesting.

Speaker 2

Also, nis and Zielinski are splitting for next year. Those are something that maybe wasn't expecting, but it's going to happen. I think Venus and Mekticek are going to be an interesting team next year. How?

Speaker 1

are they going to do?

Speaker 2

and also I'm very interested to see we have two teams that are fully British next year, which has not happened in the last couple of years at all. So there's Skupski-Salisbury and Cash-Glasspool. Those are both dangerous teams, but also with some interesting I don't know how to say it. I want to see how they can find a way to stay together for the whole year. There's something I'm just observing. It's going to be interesting to watch, interesting.

Speaker 1

So do the British kind of butt heads with each other. Is that what you're saying?

Speaker 2

Yeah, kind of yeah, and I'm kind of part of the team because I play with another Brit, so I get to meet inside things. I hear some really interesting stuff inside things.

Speaker 1

I hear some some really interesting stuff. That's funny. Yeah, I know, um, louie does a great job with the all the british pairing, so it'll be. Yeah, it'll be fascinating to see that. And then I know, uh, krejcik and ram are playing together two americans. Um, so a few more, maybe teams from the same country this year, coming up. We already talked about off-season. Okay, so let's move on to a couple of rapid-fire questions and then we'll hop off here.

Speaker 2

What is your favorite tennis book? The Inner Game of Tennis.

Speaker 1

Good choice.

Promoting Doubles Tennis Through Blogging

Speaker 2

Do you have a favorite non-tennis book? It's the Unknown Soldier. It's a Finnish book about the Winter War, the Second World War, that when we fought against Russia we managed to not let them invade Finland, favorite tournament. I have to say Wimbledon do you have a dream mixed doubles partner oh, I mean, I'm gonna say Anna Danilina, who we won US Open with. We played again this year and US Open had a great time. I don't want to change.

Speaker 1

That's a great answer. A singles player who you'd love to play doubles with.

Speaker 2

I don't know what would happen, but with public? I would love to play with public because there could be anything happening on the court and that would would be very interesting I would pay a lot of money to mic both of you up for that match.

Speaker 1

Oh no, he would not stop talking. Um, we talked about the off season, but uh, outside of tennis, what do you do in the off season just to enjoy more time with your family? Any hobbies or vacation trips that you like to do to enjoy the time with the family?

Speaker 2

yeah, we have one year old and three year old kids, so that keeps you very, very busy, and the dog too, so there's not much time to do things. But I love planes, I love aviation. So when I have chance, I take my three-year-old girl to the airport and we watch some planes landing and taking off. That's super relaxing.

Speaker 1

That's cool, awesome. Well, harry, thanks a ton for coming on. Best of luck next year. Any final comments or requests of the audience before we hop off here.

Speaker 2

Watch more doubles.

Speaker 1

Isn't that what you say? That's right. Watch more doubles and check out Harry's blog too. He's got a blog, Probably the only doubles player with a blog online.

Speaker 2

Yeah, I write it in Finnish, but Google Translate, for example, does a good job translating it to English and I think most of it is very. It could be interesting not just doubles, not just tennis. Maybe sometimes some foods, maybe some tournament insights but, yeah, I like to write it. I write a lot, so please go and read it.

Speaker 1

Okay, we'll link to that and everything else in the show notes. Thanks again, harry. Thanks everybody for listening and I will talk to you all soon.